What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman
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- Опубліковано 22 чер 2017
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So here's what writers can learn from Wonder Woman... and Spider-Man... and Doctor Strange... and... well, this video ended up talking about like every superhero movie out there, so maybe it should be "How I Want Superhero Movies To Be Written (Spoilers: Like Wonder Woman and/or Spider-Man 2)" but that's a little long isn't it?
Enjoy!
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Music:
Lee Rosevere, "Credit Roll" and "Thoughtful."
"If your story is sincere enough, nothing is 'cheesy'."
Damn that got me.
That is why we all love "the Room", what a masterpiece
i think its because tommy wiseau wasnt self-aware with the acting
That quote is situational
MARTHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Weeb - I can't agree more, and they are right; THIS is what has been missing from movies, especially the the big dumb ones with the unlimited budgets.... but it ain't just them, is it?
In the first 2 minutes, you have explained my frustration with most movies these days
I hate Bathos.
Bathos is the real cheese.
I'm actually a huge fan of marvel movies, but this is one thing that I have brought up again and again walking out of them. The emotion is cheapened by the comedy. This was a great video!!
Shaolin the 5th I was thinking that same thing.
Yes totally agree that is one reason why I am not really really excited for the film and worries me that they will pull a joke every now and then
Samuel Marques I'm hopeful because of the Russo brothers, though. They did an excellent job with The Winter Soldier and Civil War.
His analysis of CW airport battle was very nonsensical,though.
Well Civil War not so much.. But somehow people love it, so whatever I guess.
Thank you for calling out the biggest problem with the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
Yes I hate this trend. Some movies are afraid to be sincere, so they have a compulsion to let the audience know that they're not taking themselves too seriously.
Honestly the MCU killed the concept of Blockbusters actually being good. They're all fine movies, but their tone has metamorphosed the industry from being big films people should get excited about, into the cinematic equivalent of fast food. Fun at the moment; instantly forgettable afterwards, and utterly insubstantial.
5 years later now, it's become even MORE of a problem.
Bathos is cowardice. It's like saying "I love you." to a friend and then following up with "No homo!"
6:35 Oh crap, I forgot this video was about Wonder Woman in the fist place.
Right? Over half of this video is about marvel jokes
Thanks for reminding me 😂😂😂
Thank you for this. Honestly MCU films' overuse of Bathos is getting annoying. I hope they change it.
It really frightens me to see society so staunchly running away from emotion and taking topics seriously in their media. This sort of thing shapes our overall culture, and will no doubt contribute to many childhoods of the next generation. We're essentially saying, "We don't care about anything, nothing should be taken seriously; you should be embarrassed if you ever listen to your own emotions or dedicate yourself wholeheartedly to something." It just makes us ripe for being pushed around by people who are actually living life. You can very clearly see the shift of society in the way comics and comic-book movies are made, what does it say about us if we can't care about our own narrative for 10 minutes?
It's not that serious. They're just overrated movies.
I must say, I am shocked at the amount of civil, intelligent discussion going on in this comments section.
The comment section to go along with the quality of the video got me subbed in no time...you rarely get people discussing good topics like this on UA-cam..especially when it comes to film.
ikr, i was expecting there were many raging marvel fanboys
Nouval ism theres a few of both side of raging fanboys, but most of the comments seem to be able to back up their point, which I really love seeing
Fuck you!
I really love marvel but they REALLY need to fix this
I think Wonder Woman is a dramatic movie that handles it's comedy well. It has Humor but ultimately if it had a choice between an emotional moment and a joke it'd choose an emotional moment
Well said!
thanks :)
Just Write Don't forget there were some jokes in the dark knight trilogy and were placed perfectly
I think WW is a highly overrated movie with boring passages full of cringe humour, boring action mostly composed of WW getting shot at and stupid decisions made by people that still work out. most of it gets attributed to WW being out of touch with the normal world but what was she expecting when she stepped out into No-mans-land and drawing all that fire on her? What was her plan? Stand there and hope that no single bullet passes her small shield until the enemy runs out of ammo? Hope that noone gets the idea to strafe a little bit to the side to get an angle on her? Shame on the movie that that supid idea ultimately works.
The hero squad just wanders into enemy territory thinking they have a legit chance to single-handedly (or 4-handedly) destroy the enemy poison gas production without any intel.
Ares knows that WW is specifically made as a weapon against him, why is he even fighting her?
And the ending just is there with no real resolution.
@mack anderson I agree. Give me real emotion over quips any day. Now, quips can be good when handled well, but don't go overboard with them. Story and character first; humor can be sprinkled in.
When all the characters are making so many quips that they could literally switch lines without affecting the characterization, there's a problem.
Agreed! And this is why I think the MCU will always have a sort of ceiling on it.
On a different note, I don’t know what the heck they did with Guardians of the Galaxy, but it managed to be hilariously entertaining without particularly using off-putting bathos. Even the “standing in a circle scene” actually really feels like something Rocket would say. And maybe that answers my question!
I loved Guardians humor because the humor all comes from character. The Guardians don’t press pause on the movie, look toward camera, tell a joke, then resume the movie. All the humor is really them interacting with each other in real ways
I think you're right that the jokes come from character, and possibly also because bathos is James Gunn's authentic sense of humor. Slither, for instance, is nothing but jokey in the middle of some super grim scenes, but it feels like it's coming from an authentic place instead of an apologetic/embarrassed one.
The MCU has heroes undercuting emotional moments with jokes. GotG has jackasses undercutting their own bs with jokes. IMHO that's why it works so well : GotG are not heroes, they're immature morons (which is also why they are so lovable despite doing a lot af stupid things).
Yessss that's what I think too. Too often the characters make jokes for the audience instead of between each other. It's so annoying. In GOTG (and Thor Ragnarok), it's just full on comedy that you can't really argue against the jokes and bathos. It's meant to be a comedy. Not to be taken so seriously. But most of the other films attempt to be a drama, and then ruin it with jokes.
a ceiling? is that ceiling making like 2 billion dollars every year? lol
Daniel Cha I was talking about a ceiling on their quality, not just how much money they make
It's not impossible to tell a dramatic, gritty story and make jokes without undercutting the drama, but it takes a delicate touch.
I can't help but think of Avatar the Last Airbender because the humor is a cornerstone of the show (look what happened to Shamaylan's movie without it), but it's a fairly dark story overall. They just never use the humor to undercut the important moments.
10000% agreed
Another point about Wonder Woman is that the scenes with jokes feel like the jokes should be there. They fit, and they don't undercut the emotion of the scene. (Mainly the scene where Diana is looking for a new outfit.) It's lighthearted when it needs to be, but it cuts back to drama and shows that WWI is a dark event, that should not be trivialised, and this movie does it justice.
The jokes were fucking horrible man. They weren't even jokes. They were like fillers that were supposed to be replaced with punchlines at some point, but the writers never got around to it. The writing in this movie was just piss poor.
i really like the light moments since it helps contrast with the brutality of war
The comedy also alows for a release of tension which is used to further our love for the characters
@@scottk1525 Still better than shitty marvel quips
@@scottk1525 Still better than the childish comedy of the MCU
Yess, I didn't realise until I watched it, but Wonder Woman really made me miss the good old 'cheesy' superhero films filled with brilliantly impossible superhero moments, like Sam Raimi's Spider-Man or the old Batman films. The quips from marvel movies were fun at first when no other super hero movie was doing them, but now they're all quipping so Wonder Woman was like a breath of fresh air. Man, I've got to watch that again 😍
Which is kinda funny because the first Avengers movie (the one that set the tone for most of the MCU) for all its jokes is build around a few cheese moments most notable the group shot of the team coming together... no sarcasm there... all elements point to "the heroes are inspiring and they are going to save the day.... please enjoy the ensuing fight". No wonder why that scene has became iconic.
the mcu movies are just comedies
Yeah, as entertaining as Thor: Ragnarok was, I really wish they pulled back on the comedy and allowed the "hero" moments to shine through. Not everything has to have a joke attached to it.
yutube jode not all of them edgelord
Watch Winter Soldier again. It's by far the best Marvel movie for this reason. Captain America is the most sincere dude on the planet and you root for him constantly, while the action is actually perfect. His jokes are even about that sincerity, and Black Widow doesn't manage to quip herself out of serious situations.
You're so right man! It's almost like today's society is lacking deep emotions, I love things that make me cry, a movie, game, TV show or book. We need to not be afraid to show our deep feelings.
This 100% summarised the issues I had with the tone in Infinity war
*"if your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy."*
I would say that the trend of increasingly self-aware movies that undermine their own drama with quips and subversions started with Scream and its sequels. While these were still more-or-less slasher films, they were already chock-full of comedy at the expense of the slasher film genre itself, like when the characters discuss the "rules" of being in a slasher. Of course, these films were a massive success, and led to the Scary Movie franchise and its offshoots, which took the concept and ran with it all the way into the endzone of absurdity.
I think the lesson Hollywood internalised from these developments is that a movie that takes itself or its subject matter too seriously is a lot harder to pull off than one that is covered in a thick coating of irony and self-deprecation. If you make fun of your movie first, your audience will be less inclined to treat it as a serious film and will therefore be more willing to overlook stupidity and plotholes, "because it's just a dumb movie anyway".
I fucking hope that with the success of Game of Thrones, Wonder Woman and other films/shows that play themselves straight, executives will finally grow a spine and stop trying to cover their ass with pre-emptive irony.
This was the most intelligent comment in this lengthy thread. And I plan to adopt the phrase pre-emptive irony. Imagine what that self-referential crap and cutsie-pie winking would have done to Casablanca, or the Wizard of Oz or Double Indemnity. I think there is a failure of courage among creators working with massive budgets and/or an inability to exert true creative control in these ultimately stock-holder-beholding structures. Bravo Patty Jenkins.
Scream was a deconstruction of horror films. Not really the same.
@@shinken6636 My point is that there is a clear trend towards movies leaning on meta humour and irony to compensate for a lack of heart. Scary Movie and it's ilk are not "normal" parody movies; in a genre where low-brow and slapstick humour are common these films still scrape the absolute bottom of the barrel, most of the "jokes" aren't even that, they're just pop culture references that age like milk.
The MCU films meanwhile have turned into a parody of Whedon-dialogue. It seems like every new film has a little bit less soul that has to be overcompensated for with a little more out-of-place quippy dialogue and snarky self-aware commentary. Do I blame Scream for the current state of Cinema? No, but I do believe its wild success helps explain subsequent trends in movie-making.
in some ways diana’s personal sincerity added some level of comedic value while not taking away from the drama. the ice cream scene, for example. she is sincere in her love and appreciation of the ice cream, which is somewhat funny to an audience that understands social conventions, but it maintains the integrity of diana’s character and emotions. idk just my take
Is an art-form awash in bathos a reflection of a lack of sincerity in the wider culture?
This is the question your video left me with.
the answer to your question, at least for me? yes.
Wow. That's amazing. Thats serious food for thought.
I see people disagreeing about Civil War, but I also think it Guardians of Galaxy (vol 1, vol 2 is an excellent example) is bad example, not because it is a comedy but because it is entirely in character for Rocket, he is uncomfortable with the emotion and so makes a joke. It reinforces the emotion because it shows how big a step it was for him
He is the Ironman of the Guardians
Everyone makes jokes in Marvel movies. So chances are very high that one of the characters will be uncomfortable with his emotions.
That's the biggest strength of Guardians of the Galaxy, in my opinion. the fact that all of the characters have strong, clear, well established personalities and they never break character without difficulty. And it seems like a small or obvious thing to do in writing, but it happens so rarely.
Also the fact that Rocket is so uncomfortable with sincerity and emotion and feel the need to always cut it with a joke makes the moments where he actually breaks down and opens up more meaningful. But of course, those moments have to exist.
But either way, even if it wasn't an example of bathos being used poorly, it was still an example of bathos.
Yes thank you! Guardians 2's humor really got under my skin. The first was more situational, but the second took characters that didn't quip and told a quip that undercut the drama. Some scenes happened solely for comedic purposes, while the first was half a parody with half a sincere story.
Plus it comes off to me as more satirical than the other Marvel movies. It makes fun of some of the common tropes ("why do you want to save the galaxy?" gets the response "because I'm one of the idiots that lives in it!" instead of "it's the right thing to do" or something like that)
For me, the flippant attitudes and comic timing in Guardians of the Galaxy serve to reinforce the emotional weight of the narrative, not harm it. All the characters are set in their ways, be it as a defense mechanism (Rocket, Star-Lord), misunderstanding (Drax, Groot), or just self-seriousness (Gomorrah), and when their quirks sync up and make a really memorable, funny moment, it cements the idea that they're a good team. When Rocket interrupted the pep talk, it didn't break the scene: it showed that he couldn't help but support his friends, while also reminding us why that was important: he wants to blow everything off like he doesn't care. If he had instead slipped on a piece of laundry on the floor, or something like that, I'd agree with you. But he didn't. That's why the script is so good. Everything (or very nearly everything) that's funny also develops the characters.
I Agree. The video is great, but the author flat out undercuts everything that happens in both Guardian films as well as the Winter Soldier. Particularly Guardians Vol 2 during the last fifteen minutes of the movie involving Yondu's death, his funeral, and how none of the scenes get undercut by a cheap attempt at humor. Anything that gets played for laughs is when they are dealing with the Space opera elements of this particular genre (The tazerface joke is a good example) which is part of the reason why these films feel fresh and different compared to not only some of the other famous space epics such as Star Wars, but the MCU in general. A far better example of a superhero film that uses bathos to such a poor extent I think, would be Spider-Man Homecoming in which Happy has this emotional speech in regards to acknowledging what Peter did in stopping Toomes and less than 5 seconds later, the scene is interrupted by a stupid bathroom joke.
CJWproductions I couldn't agree more. And I feel that is something this guy seems to miss. True that Marvel does over do it with the comedy sometimes (no such thing as a perfect movie after all) but mostly Marvel focuses more on staying true to the characters instead of following the rules of writing religiously. For example, that airport scene he mentions in the vid, he doesn't like the quips used by Iron Man but he doesn't realize that is so true to the character of Tony Stark. If he had said some dumb quip when Rhody is hurt then I would understand criticism on that part.
That's true.
CJWproductions He made an exception for GOTG because it’s a comedy. And like you said, the comedy is used to develop the characters. The other movies in the MCU are generally more action and drama, but tend to undercut the drama when it could be lived into in that moment with a joke later.
It's a comedy, and still when it's time for an epic scene it has a scene serious and epic enough to be in Sailor Moon season finale - and it's better than anything I've seen in Wonder Woman
Every time someone mentions Alexander Pope, all I can think of is Kirsten Dunst's character in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind mistakenly calling him Pope Alexander.
Wow, this resonates with me so hard. Movies almost want to make fun of you for caring. Brilliantly put, love this.
Hell, I've started using the word cheesy for dumb jokes inappropriate times then for some poorly crafted drama. Seriously quipafication is really starting to become a plague in modern cinema.
That's funny. In trying to not be one kind of cheesy, they've become another kind.
What does quipafication mean? The only google hit on the word is this very comment.
Is it a typo?
English is not my first.
It's a composite word of my design I guess. It's combination of a quip (which means a witty remark) and quantification ( which is the measurement of quantity) It's me saying that corporate stiffs are trying to find out how many snide jokes they can implant in a movie script until the character is as "fond" of as Tony Stark of Iron Man fame.
I see.
Thank you.
AdventuringMind yes this tactic is SO commonly used it's getting annoying.
WOW, thank you so much for this analysis! I've recently realized I've been doing exactly this "bathos" thing in my own writing, I don't really do it on purpose but I just slip into it naturally and it's absolutely true that it undermines the drama of the scene and takes away from the sincere emotion. I got called out for using pathos too much when I was younger and I guess I took it to the heart a little bit too much and went overboard with the reverse. (The irony is that I've just read some of my old writings and I actually kind of mastered the art of pathos at like 13 and should have been proud of myself. lol) It also explains why I rarely remember any scenes with emotional impact from the latest super hero movies (except for WW), any scenes with real depth, while I can still remember how deeply touched I was as a young teenager when watching Spiderman and Spiderman 2 (and countless movies from the 80s - definitely my favorite era). You really pointed me in the right direction for balancing it all out :)
I also think this whole thing runs deeper than just movies, it's like people in general are really afraid of sincerity and genuine emotion and they rather go for smart-ass quips and sarcasm because it makes them seem cool and above it all, but they're really just hiding their fear of something real, their fear of their own vulnerability and humanity even. (There might be some fear of the "feminine" at play as well but I won't go into that.) I do hope this is just a phase and the success of WW is a sign that we still do love true, genuine stories and will continue loving them as long as we are human. Keep up the great work with your channel! :)
That Airport scene always bugged me because it basically felt like a kid smashing his toys together chaotically with little emotion until the kid starts crying because he accidentally broke War Machine!
This is a wonderful essay, and it made me realize some of the problems in many films lately. I think people like Waititi can handle Bathos and make it a part of the story and character journeys, but in films like Doctor Strange the humour feels manipulative.
I think Ragnarok was ruined by bathos. Even when Asgard was destroyed, there's silly jokes. It's too much.
@@oliverford5367 I disagree, Ragnarok was ruined b/c it had no message. You can see in Waititi's other works then when he has a message he wants to convey to the audience he can balance bathos perfectly to make something utterly ridiculous but still have that kernel of truth that is great comedy. Ragnarok didn't have that kernel of truth so is just meaningless joke-y jokes all the way through.
One of the greatest videos of UA-cam in a while.
I noticed the opposite of bathos in Wonder Woman midway when they're heading towards war. It starts comically with Diana and Steve talking about which direction to go and comments on the recruitments they are doing And suddenly injured soldiers start coming from the other side of the bridge. The scene transacts from comedic to tense...
Actually I cant take that character seriously. 😂
@@hellonhead5905 Well, that's a bit on you. The premise of the movie is that, as long as you watch it and in order to take in its message, you have to believe that a magical island of Amazons exists. Do just that and the rest of the movie can be taken pretty seriously.
@@rickblaine9670 nah. Its not the fantasy element . The honesty of the character combined with the naivety makes the character look plain.
@@hellonhead5905 Well, that’s kinda what Wonder Woman is about. A naive Amazon princess coming from a place where evil doesn’t exist.
@@rickblaine9670 yeah I know and I didn't personally find it interesting .
Thank you for not just getting writing right, but for using/actually growing in emotional courage and valuing the higher reasons for art.
Very grateful for you.
Joss Whedon also knows when not to joke too.
In the commentary for a Buffy episode in a later season where a main character dies, he points out that he made the scene extra ackward for the audience on purpose by leaving out the soundtrack that up till that point always accompanied similar scenes.
He explained that music relieves tension like a joke by telling the viewer how to feel, and the most emotional scenes are the ones where you make the audience rely on what the events mean to them, and let them stew in that as long as you can get away with.
Tldr: ignore what I just wrote and watch "Firefly" to see uncountable jokes do no harm to stories dripping with pathos. It can be done.
Want sincerity? Watch Hayao Miyazaki films
Yes.
Prince Ashitaka
Ha, totally. He's a legitimate storytelling genius. Deep, multi-dimensional, relatable characters? Equally fantastic plots and universe-building that support the characters and totally absorb the audience? Great themes as well as the ability to make the viewer feel deeply for the characters no matter how many times they rewatch the movies? Yes-freakin-please. Doesn't hurt that his movies are also breathtakingly well-animated.
Definitely. But, if you want sincerity in superhero films, Wonder Woman is one of the only recent examples.
Agree. Even funny moments in Ghibli films have their sincerity.
This is why The Winter Soldier is the best MCU movie
Agreed 100%
I have to agree
Zutnop Holmgren agree
I definitely agree. Do you still feel the same way after infinity war?
I agree.
"What am I feeling and why do I feel thus way" is the most important question any person can ask themselves, ever. Whether it is books, movies, music, politics, the news, always always ask yourself the question. What do I feel and why do I feel that way?" Will cause you to naturally become critical. It's an important skill.
Loved this. To quote Doc Hammer, "Cold, aloof irony, and its inherent fear of risk will always lose out to sincerity in the long run. But sadly, in the moment, sincerity takes a beating and gets labeled as "sappy", "dramatic", sentimental", and shit like that, while the safe distance that irony takes is rewarded as "clever"."
3 year late response, but do you know where this quote of his is from? Found it to be all too sadly true.
"If your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy."
I'll make sure to keep that in mind! Thank you.
And thats why i loved Logan.
How on Earth would there even be a Bathos moment in Logan. Basically everyone dies.
So , Catharsis?
God yes
Using the sound from the end of Rocky while Wonderwoman goes into no-man's land really got me.
Bathos Definitely works best when it also works to help tell the story. Deadpool’s refusal to call Ajax by anything other then his real name helps develop and establish both characters and who they are as people and actually has a lot of layers to it for addressing who Deadpool and Ajax are and defining their for lack of a better word relationship
Wonder Woman is the first movie in a while to make me fall in love with a superhero again. I've been feeling like Marvel undercuts its own drama for a while, I'm glad to have a word to associate with it now. Great video, more people need to watch this and understand why we need more movies like Wonder Woman.
Well, the MCU anyway. The Fox side of Marvel tries to be genuine. Even Deadpool has genuine emotion that isn't always undercut by humor and even when it is, it's done well and it's earned.
Zombeastsqurl I see its time for people to turn on the marvel movies. Talk about predictable.
George Daugherty any given MCU movie has more genuine emotion than Fant4stic or Apocalypse.
Ultimately I couldn't really relate to Wonder Woman. I would much rather have a flawed superhero in Iron Man, Daredevil, Black Widow and etc. than an ideal. Wonder Woman is an ideal which is easy to accept. My main problem with Wonder Woman is she doesn't feel real to me. Give me an alcoholic superhero who tries her best to be one despite of it than a model of perfection.
Marvel may interject jokes but often times they serve the purpose to change the tone or lighten the mood or even to further emphasize something. The scene at the airport was not, as the author suggests, the big fight. At that point, this was a disagreement amongst friends... nothing more. The big fight is in fact a pretty small one involving two people. The drama is in the comparison between how lighter the mood is in the airport scene compared to the fight with Steve and Tony which was much more personal. It hit home the point more successfully than it would have if the airport scene was much more serious. I don't think they are intended to undercut drama. In all honesty I think DC movies border too much on the melodrama.
Zombeastsqurl that's great that you enjoyed it that much, but it's all subjective. Wonder Woman didn't really do anything new other than be a watchable DC movie
This was an issue I instinctually felt with Dr. Strange. Though perhaps I hadn't articulated it as thoughtfully as you have now. I came out of Dr. Strange feeling it was far too jokey. It was as though they were apologizing for the material. Dr. Strange took the jokes inappropriately further than it should have. I can see that now that this is an overarching pattern with the Marvel movies. At the time I felt it was perhaps because Dr. Strange was an overt step into the world of mysticism and magic. And like the filmmakers couldn't help but apologize profusely by peppering it with joke after joke after joke. Which ironically enough end up becoming "cheesier" had they just played for sincere drama.
Another one of the most moving comic book movies recently was "Logan". Which was not done by Marvel Studios. How many chuckles would Marvel Studios tried to have cram in that film to alleviate its dark somber tone.
By the way, would love to see a video from you on "Logan".
YES! I 100% agree. I loved the first part of Dr. Strange, before he actually became a superhero. It was a gritty and fascinating character study of a lonely, arrogant man who loses everything. They had me at that point and I had such high hopes for the rest of the movie...but it all went downhill once they started being jokey with the mysticism. And I thought it was completely unnecessary! I mean, people have no trouble buying into the magic of Harry Potter for example...they should have just sincerely RAN with it. But like you said, I think they became insecure about the magic and started winking relentlessly.
I think Thor Ragnarok was worse with it. A lot worse.
spiritscar "it was as if the were apologizing for the material" this is OBVIOUSLY not true. You see them fully commit to the material. Look at Fan4stic. THAT'S apologizing for the material
I mean Logan is a depressing and dark film. Doctor Strange is colorful and adventurous, so why is it so wrong to have some funny moments in there?
Logan was so good. The humour in Logan was all in character, which is why it doesn't remove a viewer from immersion.
To be fair though, Rocket's "A bunch of jackasses, standing in a circle." Is totally in character.
me: clicks on "What Writers Should Learn From Wonder Woman"
also me until 6:30: did i click the right video???
Hahahaha I literally exited full screen to double check the video was about Wonder Woman
I've got to disagree with your analysis of the airport scene in Civil War. I think that you would be spot on if it were Captain America telling the jokes -- but it's not, it's Iron Man.
One of the major characteristics of Tony Stark is that he, himself, struggles with sincerity. He avoids emotional vulnerability by quipping, & only in moments where he loses his composure does he genuinely express what he's feeling.
Iron Man telling jokes doesn't mean that the tone has changed -- it means that he's Iron Man: someone who wears both a literal & a metaphorical suit of armor.
That's right. Also, Iron Man is not the only one breaking this "serious atmosphere". When Hawkeye and Black Widow collide they aren't really willing to kill each other. And, of course, you have Spider-Man. In my opinion the scene is less about showing the actual fight and more about showing the diversity of characters and how they interact with each other. They aren't really willing to kill each other. They fight because that's what they sort of have to do.
Dr. Zoidberg yeah but this isn't ever properly explained in any of the ironman films or civil war, hinted at maybe. If your a fan of the character of course you will know this is the case but you have to think of the general audience and the effect it's having on the general story too. Besides if it was just iron man then maybe it would come across better that it's just his character but then you have vision vs scarlet witch quipping, hawkeye vs black widow etc. All have good reason for more emotional conflict, but ignore that for a joke. It's not that the scene wasn't awesome it's just that when it tried to go serious it wasn't all that strong in delivering the feels.
Dr. Zoidberg, I completly agree - and for me this actually added to the scene and situation: Cap and Tony fail to communicate throughout the movie and quite often this comes from being on different levels - like with the accords in general: Tony is on a very rational level (with his personal background of "creating" Ultron), while Cap sees that from a strong moral point (with HIS background of never having his morals really compromised and actually having witnessed the 3rd reich). Tony joking around is something that Cap can't really connect to.
Bat Man, I have never read an Iron Man comic book, yet this was pretty clear from previous movies - if not actually pointed out by someone (Pepper maybe?).
For me the scene showed very well that most of the characters don't really want to hurt each other, let alone kill someone. You can see (and Wanda says it out loud) that they are pulling their punches. They are also friends, who went through lots of challenges and battles, leading to those quips. The exception is Black Panther, since he is really out for blood there - and this is shown as well: When Hawkeye tries to chat him up, he simply says "I don't care" and attacks. Spider-Man also does not have this emotional connection, but the "joking around" and talking in-fight is a major part of his character.
All this starts to get more tense once the battle continues and no side gets a clear win. One escalation is Vision joining the battle: I think he didn't do a lot there because he has immense destructive power, but not really the kind to disable without causing harm - or he might not be sure enough of how hard he can punch someone without causing damage, unless it is a 30m giant. The final escalation is the missed shot that nearly killed Rhodey, even though it was not meant to harm anyone, let alone be possibly leathal. And at this exact point there is a final change in the tone, no more quips or jokes, because suddenly there is an awareness: This fighting can actually kill someone - a friend, more importantly.
I was going to type in the comments the fact that Bathos can also infer and show character than just the tone of the movie - thinking back to Tony Stark - but you have done that for me :)
I do agree that the Civil War scene shown wasn't the best example that could have been used, and Thor 2 is the movie that stands out to me as the Marvel movie that suffers the most from Bathos.
Thank you! I've been thinking about this ever since I walked out of Guardians of the Galaxy 2 without having felt a single thing. Films like Wonder Woman, Superman, the Dark Knight trilogy and the original Spider-man movies knew how to draw an audience into story without sacrificing the dramatic tension or the core values of the film and I've missed that in films lately so much.
This is literally why i can't love marvel movies. I hate this overuse of bathos, stakes are droping fast beacause of it.
In defence of the airport scene: That is Tony's character. He practically unable to handle situations like this without lighting them up with quipping and jokes. Because otherwise it would weigh too heavy on his shoulders.
I also felt that the airport scene was a misdirect. From the previews, everyone was expecting that to be the "Civil War." In the context of the movie it was some mutual frustration from both sides, but also both sides working not to hurt each other (with the exception of Black Panther). That was why I thought it was effective to infuse humor throughout the sequence until Rhodes is injured because you suddenly realized what was at stake and that the team splitting could have serious consequences. Then Tony sees the consequences of his former teammates locked up. It culminates in the actual civil war between Tony and Steve in the end scene where it actually could be a fight to the death.
You are dead-on, Heresor. Tony has always been that snarky, quipping guy in the MCU, and I did not feel that the airport scene was in any way detracted from because of it. And for that matter, the earlier scene with the virtual reality presentation when he was 21 years old when he was still quipping with his parents. All throughout the movie, though, Tony was growing as a character, and his arc was finally coming to completion when he found out that the Winter Soldier had murdered his parents. Tony finally "broke," and his quipping stopped during the final fight scenes with Bucky and Cap.
Focus on WW
Scott Roberts I'm glad other people noticed that. The GotG scene was the same thing. That's how Rocket deals with his emotions and it's a very real state of mind. The person who made this video seems to either not know much about the characters he's talking about and has only seen those movies once, or he just wanted to be in opposition to something about modern film making for the views.
It was trash. The jokes ruined the whole movie.
They might not be parodies, but I think it's common in super hero films now because they are such tired tropes. It's unfair to ignore the context. Spider-man 2 came out in the early 2000s, where as Doctor Strange 2016. It's likely writers are worried about hitting these cliche moments and so underpin them. However, I also think it's ironic because so many do it that it's more common to find this Bathos over an ACTUAL serious moment, thus why I believe you felt the necessity to contemplate this topic.
I think you make a good point, but I also think the filmmakers should bear in mind what this guy and Patty Jenkins said - if you do it well (i.e. use proper build up and flesh out your character's motives etc) then it won't feel cliche or cheesy or whatever other problem.
I don't think Marvel Studios does what they do because they're afraid of being cheesy, I think they do it because they're afraid of being cliche. That's the problem with comparing a contemporary film to a classic film. Many of the story beats that the older film utilized have since become worn out. If E.T. or the original Star Wars come out in this day and age, odds are they'd be wouldn't be nearly as well-received by audiences and critics. But they're extremely respected and regarded as they are because we acknowledge the era in which they were made. What was the primary criticism of The Force Awakens? It recycled too many of the story beats of the original Star Wars. What was the main criticism of The Amazing Spider-Man reboot? It repeated too much of the original Spider-Man film. That's what Marvel Studios has to deal with. Let's face it, no other contemporary genre is as played out and trope-laden as superhero fiction. Since the release of the original Spider-Man trilogy, how many superhero films have gotten where we watch a main character progress from being an Act 1 protagonist to an Act 3 protagonist? Hence the cape scene in Doctor Strange. If you have no choice but to invoke a moment that's been done several times before, you do have to undercut it a little so it doesn't look completely identical to what's come before. That's the thing, when implementing tropes/cliches, even if the film isn't an outright comedy, you have to subvert expectations otherwise you'll look like you're going through the motions and come across as formulaic. I personally didn't care for the cape thing, but seeing as Marvel is constantly accused of being formulaic, I can see why they do stuff like that. The reason Wonder Woman didn't have to deal with that particular trope is due to lead protagonist's overall lack of a fleshed-out character arc. Unlike Peter and Doctor Strange, and similar to Captain America in FA, Diana is more or less the same person, a selfless hero, from the very beginning to the very end. Unlike Peter, Strange, Iron Man, etc we don't watch her develop the resolve to become a hero over the course of the film. She just is. So the film doesn't even make for a really good comparison to begin with.
Also he's being very strict when saying that there are specifically correct circumstances to use bathos. Whatever happened to the there are no rules rule? Sine when is undercutting tropes exclusive to comedic films, like Deadpool and Lego Batman? Personally, I think Marvel, for the most part, uses bathos to give an almost postmodern sense of self-awareness, which once again shouldn't be limited to comedic works. And I for one liked that "standing in a circle" line from GOTG. I felt the line, which was improvised, was fitting of the character and well-executed to the point that the scene is preserved, unlike the cape thing with Doctor Strange. Like I said, I don't think they do stuff like that just to be funny, but to also prevent scenes from being identical to so much of what's come before. Oh and for the record, they almost always make fun of the superhero name. Spider-Man, Man of Steel, X-Men: "What kind of name is Rogue? ... What kind of name is Wolverine?" or "Sabertooth? Cyclops? Storm? And what are you, Wheels?" Seriously, they've been doing that bit forever. Anyway, overall I found this video to very insightful but I felt like some of his comparisons and assumptions were a bit off.
This is why in GOTG the "Take my hand" scene at the end is seen as cheesy when it's actually a truly sincere, great heroic moment.
It's still a Marvel movie but imagine that same scene but midway through all of them holding each others hand and sharing the force of the Power Stone, Drax farts, music stops, and he goes "sorry" while Ronan eyerolls. That's what Marvel usually does.
What Patty Jenkins said about cheesiness is right.
Truthfully...the Guardians and IM movies are the ONLY MCU entries that handled humor properly. Everywhere else it was forced or gratuitous
@@razorfett147 Ragnarok also did pretty well with its humor. But then again, it also had more leeway since it was created to be a comedy
Actually Id have hated the scene if there wasnt enough humor in it.
There is just enough humor.
When I watched wonder woman, there was one moment that I found hilarious that I think was unintentional.
The moment of the big reveal that Morgon was Ares, and the way he was potrayed to have that same mustache back when he killed the gods in ancient times made me laugh. It was just ridiculous to me and the mustache is sorta anachronistic.
That was indeed hilarious.
I mean, it’s scary when he first reveals himself, because you’re there thinking “oh, so it’s his human disguise, who knows what unholy monster hides beneath it.”
Then he turns god mode and the mustache is still there😂
Yesterday I watched WW again, and that scene in No Man's Land, where she shows herself as a proud warrior, got me all teary. Such an inspiring character!
I loved how she marched across it to go and kill innocent farm boys forced to fight against other innocent farm boys forced to fight. So beautiful.
Dylan Abela Ah, but you see, she was fighting for MURICA! And as we all know, all violence, horrible killing, death and tragedy is justified when MURICA is the one doing it. FREEDOM, and stuff.
So her killing innocent people forced to fight is a good thing? If a person doesn't doubt themselves as they kill poor, innocent teenagers and young adults than they aren't a hero, they are a sociopath. Stop trying to defend revisionism.
The Amazons battle scene was awesome the battle ended to quickly if all the Amazons could block bullets that would have made a crrrrraaaazzzyyy battle
And what is the part that is emotional? All I see is a superhuman slaughtering a multitude of young conscripts fighting against other young conscripts because someone hundreds of miles away shot some dude they don't know. And Ii didn't make a political stance, how can I do that about an event that happened 100 years ago when the governments of the time were monarchies. Unless you though I was making a political stance about Saudia Arabia?
This how I've felt through a lot of movies I've seen since 2006. But I was never able to articulate this issue like this guy just did. Great video essay. Bring sincerity back to our films.
When you were talking about the captain America fight scene being taken away from the dramatic from Iron Man making quips actually made it seem sadder to me because it showed how Tony can't handle his hurt from how he feels. He makes jokes because he doesn't want to feel that actual pain of the betrayal he feels. The the makes made me feel uncomfortable like when your parents are fighting.
Ashly Kovacs exactly. Dr Strange uses comedy to hide how worthless he feels after his life has been completely destroyed. he went from being a man of science to a man of mysticism.
That would make sense if Tony would have been the only joker. But it wasn't, anyway that's a characteristic of Spider-Man, not Ironman so they're not even getting their characters right
It would've worked more like that though if the other characters had refused to go with it. That would've acted as a reminder to the audience that this is how Tony deflects uncomfortable emotions and avoids dealing with them (and perhaps highlighted just how serious the conflict had become too - because you know it's bad when the comic relief can't get any laughs).
Compare some parts of Iron Man 2, for example.
I honk it works only at the beginning, tony has been a quippy and funny guy in the MCU bit when it comes down to business he’s serious. I think that’s the only flaw with the scene, during the fight I think the quipps should be left to peter as that’s always been his character.
+M.A. __ C. Making jokes can't be a characteristic of a single character. That's just silly and unrealistic. True, both of them quip, but they do it for very different reasons.
Tony quips in most situations because it's his way of avoiding confronting the emotional weight that's always on his shoulders. It's a defense mechanism.
Spiderman, on the other hand, quips because Peter Parker isn't at all like that. Him putting on the mask gives him a sense of confidence that he just doesn't have without it, because he basically becomes a completely different person. That's why there's such a contrast between that awkward teenager we see in that Queens apartments and that web-slinging superhero we see at the airport.
The idea that only a single character should tell jokes frequently is absolutely ridiculous, boring, and, worst of all, plain unrealistic. Finding humor in situations, even serious ones, is just as human as being able to take situations seriously, which both characters do!
Best example of this was the beginning of "The Force Awakens". We have an amazing build-up and Kylo-Ren has just slaughtered LOR SAN TEKKA and stops a laser shot mid air in one of the most legendary scenes in the entire Star Wars franchise. As an audience - I was spell-bound. I thought Kylo was the coolest thing since Vader. Then Poe has to go "So who talks first? You talk first?" "It's just very hard to understand you with all the..." and they just took away all the emotions that I had just built-up.
Agree 100%
I personally think it works. Kylo is doing everything he can to give off this grand air of menace, and Poe's deliberately trying to ruin his moment by being a smartass. It's a great introduction to both characters.
@@SuperScarface83 yes, but if the camera work presents it as a comedy scene, it wont work that way. Camera work contributes to the tone of the scene. It can show whether the scene is meant to be comedic or not.
If the camera work remains serious, it doesnt break the tone, so only the character does. Music affects this too.
Example: serious scene. Character makes joke. Music cuts off. Camera shows both characters in a new angle or funny one. This completely breaks seriousness and evokes laughter.. because it is funny.
@@keretaman I agree that it changes the scene's tone for a moment, but I still don't mind the tone change. I liked the joke (I'm a sucker for self-referential humor). And I think that tone change serves a useful purpose, given how the dark the scene was before.
I saw my first Star Wars movies when I was 4 years old, and I'm definitely not alone in seeing them so young. Obviously, the filmmakers are hoping to please nostalgic adults. But Star Wars (as a whole) is ultimately meant for families and children. And when opening your tent-pole family picture with a notably dark scene of villains slaughtering innocent civilians, breaking up that scene with a brief moment of levity can help ease the audience into the film.
I personally thought it was a good moment, even if it lessened the tension a bit. The joke helped build a contrast between the characters, and the scene still ended on a foreboding note.
oh my god I agree completely. I fucking love the feeling I get from a story that takes its message seriously despite the presentation appearing ridiculous and cartoony. Like Scott Pilgrim, the original Spiderman movies, Speed Racer, and Independence Day. Storytellers HAVE become afraid to be genuine and i think you hit the nail on the head in this video. I hate the tone Marvel has been going for in the last few years. It's just so empty.
...And subscribed.
+
Truthfully, this comment reminded me to subscribe. Thanks, Perry!
me too
Yep
I subscribed at the Game of Thrones one. So good.
Wish I'd seen this two years ago, rather than just coming across it now. Would have made a perfect contribution back when I was teaching teenagers about postmodernism in media: this perfectly articulates the argument that when everything is a little ironic, nothing is entirely sincere and entertainment constantly presents itself *as* entertainment with a meta-cinematic (or whatever medium) wink, then the power of entertainment to *say* anything (or make us really feel anything) is the cost. I think I'm a touch more tolerant of the meta (some of my favourite films and plays manage to switch between self-aware laughter and sincere drama with power and deftness) and less so of the cheesy (whilst the lead characters and many of the scenes in Wonder Woman worked exactly as you say for me too, there were also scenes in which the film seemed to charge, - with total, heartfelt sincerity - into the borderline ridiculous) but, yes: Good point, well made, and thank you for it.
"If your story is sincere enough, then nothing is cheesy" Well said great video as always. Keep them coming, my friend. You have a lot of wisdom to share
I am so glad I'm not the only one bothered by the collar scene in Dr. Strange. When I saw it the first time I turned to my companion and said "I hated that" out loud; I hated it that much. On the flip side, I loved the Wonder Woman scene where she climbs the latter to enter no man's land. That may become one of movie's classic scenes.
@monokhem They were soldiers? WW actually helped them make some progress for the first time in a year? And they saved a village in the process?
that progres in the too narrow space would have not lasted logn bcs u need to move big parts of the front to not be pushed out of the trench u just conquered. also they didnt save the village bcs it was gassed down few scenes later.
yessssss. I think both sides are true. That collar scene in Doctor Strange really got under my skin. It was like the ONE moment when you really shouldn't have that. And even then, maybe if the movie wasn't so full of little moments like that it wouldn't have grated so much. The foolishness of WW in that scene doesn't really diminish the iconic sacrificial nature of her heart. She's just not quite used to fighting alongside such incompetent mortals. Or she's not really used to fighting in a war at all, period. It more EMPHASIZES it and tells us how much she still has to learn. As far as the men surviving. . . . well, it's a superhero movie so I let it slide.
Unless she climbed your companion or climbed a LATTER, not a LADDER, you should have used the latter in your comment. :o)
monokhem She didn't say, "Follow me!" They decided on their own to follow her. Also, it's a superhero movie. Suspend disbelief.
I think that Tony's flip flopping in the airport scene sas more about his character then the scene itself. He plays quippy to stand tall for Rhodey, acts tough for Steve, plays light-hearted for Peter (Back to Stoic Steve) then back to quippy for Clint and Wanda. It shows how insecure he is after everything that has gone down in Sokovia. The first scene we see him in just slather on the emotional turmoil by literally showing us the last time he saw his parents then transitions to his guilt after so many have died by having a mother tell Tony that he is a murderer with conviction. I don't know, just my thoughts
totally agree. This is Tony stark right now. thats why it works for him and no one else.
In Marvel films everybody is quippy. It was not only him in that scene. All of them appart maybe Black Panther were quippy at some point. That's the big problem.
I feel like you're really digging for that one
100% agree. This video was mostly right, but it missed the point of Tony's quip when he arrived at the airport. He throws the line Steve's face and glares, his words communicating that things are normal, but everything else telling Cap that he's gone too far and this isn't funny.
I also think the worst Marvel film for jokes at the wrong time (bathos) was Age of Ultron. Joss Whedon was clearly stressed making that film, and while there are a lot of great qualities in it, the quips were hugely detrimental to the film. The Hulk vs Iron Man fight in particular. Tony should have been scared shitless, he could have ripped apart at any moment, but instead of a tense sequence which raises the stakes and brings Tony Stark down to earth, we got a comedic fight with jokes galore. Blergh.
nextpkfr similarly to how Just Write missed the point about Tony in Civil War, I think you missed the point of Tony in Age of Ultron against the Hulk(definitely a lot of people missing the point with Tony lately, when he's a pretty obvious character to get). Tony was stressed out as all hell when fighting the Hulk, and you can feel it in his attitude. Not only does he get out the Hulkbuster immediately, but whenever he talks, the fear practically sweats out of his voice. When Hulk spits out a teeth, the "I am sorry" Tony blurts out in half a second is comedic all right, but it also reflects his moment of "I dun goofed" that he just did. Same thing for "Go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep". The poor guy is so desperate to have some sort of Victory against the Hulk he's practically praying in a mantra to himself.
The moment from Dr. Strange was especially weak, because flipping up the collar was already a joke reference to the Sherlock series and then piles up another 'joke'.
If only someone had given Taika Waititi this advice before he made Thor: Ragnarok. There was so much bathos in that movie it was suffocating. I kept hearing the same praise: "I liked Thor: Ragnarok because it didn't take itself too seriously." When did it become a bad thing for a movie to take itself seriously?
Thor: Ragnarok becomes really, really interesting as a set-up to Infinity War, though. If anything, it makes the deep tragedy of Thor's sudden and swift losses all the more raw after coming off the high.
I loved Wonder Woman.... for the very same reason you described. And I lost interest in Marvel movies for the exact same reason you mentioned. I believe a lot of writers forget that the audience wants to be moved, desires emotion and longs to weep. It is the essential reason to invest oneself in a film- to feel emotion and validate it.
I hope they learn something from Wonder woman and especially Logan. I have never felt this many emotions from a superhero movie
You're an idiot.
I feel like that's why I loved the first Avengers movie so much, there was some cheese, but the overall tone of the movie wasn't as lighthearted as all the subsequent Avengers-related movies have been. The scene that they finally all unite and the camera does a 360 pan was freaking epic because you knew shit was about to get real, which it did. I'm hoping since that they have all been fun, bridge-the-gap movies to Infinity War that, from my basic knowledge of the comics and Thanos, shouldn't have a whole lot of light-heartedness. We'll see.
Jinha Choi who said she had sex?
true, its nice to get entertained in a theater but i have so much respect to movies that INSPIRES me.
I would argue that, while the bathos used in the airport scene in Civil War does has the effect of undercutting the drama of that moment, that creates a contrast for the final scene at the Hydra base. Yes, even when confronting his friends for violating the Sokovia Accord, Tony is still cracking wise, but when the terrible truth comes out at the end, he drops the "witty guy on top of everything" act because of how deeply hurt he is. The point is, the bathos in the airport scene creates a contrast for the secondary climax so the audience can more deeply feed the tension of THAT moment rather than being fatigued from full seriousness throughout.
Well Tony quipping is part of his character.
Disney, SW, MCU villains who dies from a dance off which promotes sexism, racism, neo nazi agenda.
+Kathy Wong
wat
Not to mention the Airport scene isn't meant to be a "to the death" mission. It's a last ditch effort to reign in Cap. Not trying to be too serious at first to show Iron Man's hand. He still wants to unite the team at that point.
kathy...bath salts are bad for you...you might eat somebody's face.
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL.
Thanks for the incredible work and analysis.
I cried at the end :,) Tanks so much for putting in all the effort to creating this superb essay!
This is the first time I've seen a video by this channel. you've convinced me. I want to watch more, and I will.
when wonder woman jumped out on "no man's land" I felt hope because you could feel her altruism, her innocence, and her yearn to defeat the war
Mark Cockburn You could also feel her stupidity, grenades and bombs aren't safe just because you've tossed them aside, that scene is moronic, the way of "dramatic" in this video is fooling stupid people, if it's a common super hero movie, don't try to be more, because people know what those movies are.
Mark Armage And while the emotions can be seen as genuine throughout the movie, in the end they don't really lead to significant change in my opinion. Hell, one of the most emotionally palpable scenes in the entire movie is undercut almost immediately.
Scarfum Munchum: Which scene are you referring to?
Marriuz i think hes talking about the scene where diana thinks she finds out ares isnt real and that humans dont deserve help
Esther Park: That would make sense. And I agree.
Thanks for this wonderful video. Yes, that last scene of the Rocky movie ALWAYS brings tears to my eyes!
It isn't just emotion; people are afraid of expressing a point of view, of having something to say. In part I think because while you're learning you tend not to do justice to things that matter to you. So people learn to undermine themselves before someone else can beat them to it.
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! I can't tell how much I agree with you! It feels like 'the internet culture' (sorry for the generalisation!) has drawn the sincerity out of so many things. Today it's all about the lulz, the memes, the remixes and the 10 hour versions of that remixes. I don't want to sound like grumpy grampa railing against that indecent, disrespectful youth with their mobile phones and their gameboys and their internets - but it's true to a certain degree.
The emotional spectrum seems to be so dominated by humor lately. Now there's nothing wrong about a good laugh, not the tiniest bit. But where do we go as a society when bathos is breaking so many emotional moments in blockbuster movies? Are we overchallenged with sadness? Do we shout "CHEEEESYYYY!" at everything that might be able to get to us at a deeper emotional level? It's no shame to share a character's grief, or to get goosebumps during an emotional speech! Moments like those make us able to feel the same in real life and therefore make a deeper connection with the people around us. But since we award the guy cracking the best joke in the comment section with reactions like "You, Sir, just won the internet!", no matter how serious the case, coping with negative emotions will always be difficult.
And that's why there's so much truth in Patty Jenkins' statement against cheesyness. I hope she will be making a lot more movies in the future!
Damn right!!!
It's because these days it's like people only want dark, nasty and "gritty realism", violence, rated R. "We live in a society" all that stuff like there's not an entire emotional scale to choose from. Bring back sincerity! Bring back the cheese! I need another "if you build it, they will come" type movie!
When a scene goes from funny to dramatic it adds an extra feeling for me. you kind of feel guilty for your previous joy. like your laugh has gone sour in your mouth. I think that's an interesting feeling.
When Wash got skewered.
Mulan does this well after the "A Girl Worth Fighting For" song.
TypicalPony Oh my gosh. Your example is the best! That song's perfect for that. And yup, I am familiar with this feeling. It sends me into a whiplash, but I like it.
in civil war's case the drama being cut by the comedy in the middle made the last battle much more emotional for me . It separates the conflicts , where the middle fight was about bringing your friends back to your side and the last was completely against them.
Most excellent! I've tried to articulate this to friends after seeing Marvel movies, but this does it better than I ever could!
Okay how does civil war have bathos in the airport scene. Sure it has jokes but there in character to what Tony Stark and co. do so it never undermined the drama in the scene. Especially since the subtext of most of the quips is 'I am going to stop you by any means.'
But most of the Marvel characters are not like Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is someone who has conviction and is sure of her ability to help people. Marvel characters tend to be much more flawed and wracked with self doubt so they use various defense mechanisms to hide their true feelings, sometimes even tricking themselves.
Tony quips not because the story isn't confident in the drama, it's because Tony isn't confident in his ability to face real emotions.
The airport fight in Civil War is completely different than Veld or any of the battles in Wonder Woman. Tony didn't want to fight Captain America. He wanted to believe it was still just a disagreement, not a life or death battle. He was being forced into it because General Ross was threatening to use much more force if the situation wasn't quickly resolved.
KingOfMadCows exactly. And the final fight between Cap , Iron Man and Bucky is pure emotion.
KingOfMadCows Thank you! I'm tired of people saying that because something worked for one film it'll work for all the others. it's as bad as when Hollywood decides to resuse tropes because they worked once
I think we should pass the Airport scene, i see so many people want to protect it. Just think about: Iron man 2,3, Thor 1,2 ( and i'm very sure 3 will be the same), Dr Strange (OMG), Suicide Squad (shit)... I mean, there are many ways to make a good movie, but if you want to give the audience a SERIOUS MESSAGE, you have to do the right way
What Just Write doesn't do is ask, "What emotion is the airport scene trying to evoke?" He seems to think it's some kind of dramatic weight, but it's not. The *entire purpose* of the airport scene is to service fans who are excited about nerd battles. The emotion they're going for is "Ha! I, the fan, was right!" And there's some legitimacy to getting that shit out of the way before the bunker fight where people needed to stop fixating on who's stronger and instead focus on the raw pain between Tony and Steve.
It's shit, dramatically. Could they have tried for something more emotional? Maybe. I don't know. But they didn't. You can contrast that to, literally, *every other fight* in the Captain America trilogy. Pick one and tell me it's insincere.
You should be making these videos. You actually know what you're talking about.
One of my favorite videos on UA-cam. Excellent piece.
-NGSMOOV, Randall
You guys are amazing. Don't stop making these videos. Like ever.
I hate the whole “it’s Tony’s character” argument. There comes a point when something hits a character so hard it takes them out of character, they struggle to deal with it. It should have been like that, especially in Civil War which was practically the build up to Infinity War.
It’s why I find that Marvel mostly has zero rewatch value, I’m not invested the first time, so I definitely won’t be the second time. There is no drama, or build up or angst or anything to grip me like there is in most DC films, but for someone reason DC gets the crap for being ‘too dark’.
You Don’t Need To Know exactly, I made this argument during IW when Tony was in space. I didn't feel a damn thing for him because he kept joking all the time. During the trailer, the made the line "part do the journey is the end" epic but in the movie it was delivered as a cheap joke and ruined it completely
@@olamidealabi6419 Don't you mean Endgame?
Ikr. I can rewatch Batman Begins, Man of Steel and Logan so many times because I get so invested in the characters. But BB is overshadowed by TDK, Man of Steel is seen as dark and un-superman. Logan survived I guess, but people rarely mention it. It's like the indie movie of superhero movies.
@@rishshortfilms No, the "part of the journey is the end" line is from Endgame, not Infinity War
But Civil War does have those moments. For example when tony is talking to the Avengers about signing the contract (or whatever that was). Yes in the beginning he kinda makes a joke but after that u see how much the deaths of innocent people are weighing on him. Or in the final battle between him and cap. No jokes there either. Just a lot of pain and trauma. So yes it's a part of Tony. Humor is valid way for people to cope with stress and trauma, even when some people might think it's inappropriate. But the thing is, sometimes u just can't help it and it's pretty common as well. Chandler from friends is a good example for that too. But one sees moments where tony is truly suffering and often he keeps it to himself. He seems unfazed, maybe to protect those around him, because he blames himself for a lot of the bad things that have happened/will happen like in AOU or the first iron man.
Anyway just because there is no constant angst or drama, doesn't mean that the struggles are invalid. It's just different ways of coping. Some people just can't bear the pain of actually feeling the pain,(at least in that moment) and deflect. it's a valid defense mechanism. I for example laugh sometimes when someone dies or something traumatizing happens. And it's not bc I want to. I can't control it. I thought I was a lunatic for reacting that way but, once u think about it, it's a logical response
Should have talked about WW more though.
That's fair. I wish I had been able to go a little further into Wonder Woman too. When I get my hands on the footage, I'll probably do something a little more in-depth.
No problem. I liked the video and totally agree.
another good thing about wonder woman is that the humor was there in scenes where they were just relaxing like on the boat out of themescera or while walking in london. when its time for battle for making plans, jokes are lame and in glad paty jenkins knew better than to use any jokes in those moments apart from one of two from chris pine that felt natiural as he was amazed at diana's abillities
Why? It was terrible.
this is a problem that’s been bothering me a lot, but i’ve never been able to put it into words. thank you
How....how on Earth am I just now finding your channel?!?
This is magnificent stuff, thank you so much.
Ok I might've missed a point of this video so if that happend please forgive me. That being said, I found the last line that Wonder Woman said to Ares before she finished him was misplaced. Or..."cheesy". I was fine with everything in the movie. Heck, Steve's lines to Diana about how humans are flawed was the best thing in the movie. I considered sincerity in that dialougue. But all that was contradicted, in my personal opinion, when WW had to say to Ares that "Love conquers"...or something of that sort.
I considered Patty just contradicted her New York Times statement by having this line in the movie. That line could be a "wink to the audience" because "what the kids like". Love is a vague term. Soldiers go to combat because of their loved ones. Civillians die because other soldiers "love" their country or their families. I thought that "Wonder Woman" should be the last movie to have such a statement. Again, I very much likely missed a point in the movie, or in this video. But that is my point.
The jokes in Dr. Strange were poorly timed I agree but I think you may be misreading the battle scene in Civil War. That battle is coming at a point when neither side is really sure how deep the division between the two sides is. All of the characters, especially those who aren't Cap, Iron Man, Panther and Bucky, are still thinking they are dealing with friends who are just standing in their way to an obstacle. I think War Machine's accident is what solidifies the conflict and helps each side see where they really stand and how far they're willing to go to support their cause. The final battle scene between Tony, Bucky and Cap, where all of the characters know exactly how the other characters feel about them, you don't see any humor undercutting the seriousness of the scene.
also, dude, i love the way you put in clips that perfectly demonstrate your points. The "i love you" layered over wonder woman's totally cheeseball run with the bullet parrying bracers...lol.
This was excellent. I watch a lot of video essays and have not heard this point made at all
"My favorite movie in the world" *shows Rocky* instant subscribe right then and there
This. This right here is exactly what I've been complaining about from Marvel films for years. They always have to ruin dramatic moments for the sake of a joke, and they're getting worse every year about this.
This is the reason why Venom was so popular despite critical panning: it's sincere. It's not trying to change the world, it's not trying to show a message and it doesn't have a hidden agenda, but it's not afraid of its story and character. Plus, while there's a lot of humor, none of it comes at the expense of drama. That's why it resonated so much with audiences. Yes, if you're going to sit down and start picking at plot holes it's going to sound like a stupid mess, but if you can just sit down and be emotionally invested in it, it's a really enjoyable ride.
No, Venom did well because it had Tom Hardy's fanbase and Spidey's fanbase because of his connection to him. The movie was an early 2000s Superhero movie, back when filmmakers were ashamed of the subject matter.
@@ShadowSonic2 That's a ridiculous and entirely baseless assumption.
You have just described one of the most persistent issues with modern screenplays. I salute you. Subscribed!
You have literally just described PERFECTLY why I hate 99% super movies, I could never put my finger on it and you’ve done it perfectly
Wonder Woman is an example of how to do dramatic comedy right.
AlanMeister agree, but then it ruins everything in the end with the generic fight scene against an op antagonist till the hero knows that the hero is a hero and has an easy time defeating the bad guy. The only major flaw about this utterwise good movie
The comedy in Wonder Woman made no sense if you think about it.
chris Moore How so?
chris Moore elaborate
Well take the sword drawn scene where she exited the store. Even in her society it would be inappropriate to have your weapons drawn at this instance. And how English was a language she had knowledge of because of the achieves that would mean she had knowledge of most of the fish out of water jokes that came one after another. And the general personality was as if she was a small town girl who just got to the big city, Less like a woman on a mission.
Wonder Woman was literally wonderful and I feel like Marvel should take a slice of their cake. Diana is everything a superhero character should be, taking humour in the right way and not overdoing the humour like Marvel movies.
No! I would cry if Marvel goes the way of WW. lol
No. This Diana and the finesse and intelligence of the Hulk. What movie did you watch?
TheDCTVshow Well while the character was amazing its sad to see the dc villains getting worse. Honestly, everyone who says that dc has better villains than marvel, they didnt watch any movie after the dark night. So I wouldn't say WW was perfect and I personally prefer most marvel movies.
I'm gonna be mean.... can Wonder Woman be anything except "literally" wonderful? You're basically saying that the movie is factually full of wonder, as in full of actual supernatural elements. What I'm saying is that you're using the word "literally" wrong.
But yes, Wonderwoman is both figruatively and literally wonderful.
TheDCTVshow wonder woman was a mediocre movie
Thank you for this video
James Gunn gets it right in his 'Guardians of the Galaxy' movies. Sure, they are comedies, and he does have those moments of bathos (like the clips you showed in this video,) but when he does have those pivotal moments of emotion, he goes all in and does NOT trivialise that moment in any way. I know plenty of grown men who cried at Yondu's death and funeral, even though the 'Mary Poppins' joke had them laughing just minutes before. And when baby Groot was bullied in the second movie it was genuinely heart-wrenching, as was him sacrificing himself to save his friends in the first one.
One important lesson from Wonder Woman: don't trip at the finish line.
THANK YOU! SO MUCH! I'm so tired of wiggling back and forth in and out of commitment to anything. I've heard the Wonder Woman line "I can save today, you can save the world" called cheesy -- well, if it's cheese, it's goddamn Muenster. The beauty of Wonder Woman is how it sneaks up on you in all kinds of ways. I've heard cynical dismissals of Steve Trevor's "diverse" ragtag gang, but I find them positively inspired, particularly the Scottish sniper Charlie, and while it's sweet that Diana is moved by a crying baby or an ice cream cone or falling snow -- or a "swaying" Chris Pine -- I connected with her best when she said "No, Charlie, who will sing for us?" That is the stuff. Let us never talk ourselves out of it.
William Blake Hall AMEN
William Blake Hall It's funny how you WW apologists give a pass to cheesy moments in WW because, I dunno but criticize Marvel for doing the same thing but in a better way.
I don't know who "WW apologists" are, but I'd love to meet them so as to set them straight on owning up to WW's flaws -- while NOT apologizing for where it succeeds. For that matter, I don't blow much time or energy criticizing Marvel, they do good work. Some of you are going to have to get used to the idea that there are people who don't give one electron of a crap which corporate empire claims to own which property, let alone which one is supposed to be an "enemy." WW was a rare achievement that moved me in a way I haven't felt since the Eighties -- and I'm not even evangelizing that, that's just my personal report.
William Blake Hall Ok different opinions I guess. I don't know what so moving and "powerful" i missed in the movie.
Star Lord It's not a surprise that a person that would use a stupid phrase like "ww apologists" would miss the moving scenes of WW.
It's pretty obvious at least one of the following is true about you:
1) you decided from the announcement of the movie that you would not like it. Likely because a female is the hero
Or
2). You've heard all the praise, seen all the fans, saw all the glowing reviews, and decided you were going to be a "maverick renegade" type of hipster.
So now your job is to tell everyone how wrong they are for enjoying the movie. Even though if you had actually watched it, or given it a legit chance if you did watch it, you'd probably enjoy it too.
Oh well, it's your life.
Damn son. I've been bingewatching your videos for a while now, and this one got me the most so far. I've learned a lot, and got really inspired. Thank you! Your channel is an amazing source!
Lol I always loved the bit with the cape clinging to Stranges face. I totally get where you’re coming from though.