The Marvelization of Cinema
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2024
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About this video essay:
We've all felt it: the movies have changed. But how so exactly, and why? And what can be done about it? In this extensive critique, I try to capture the decline of modern cinema in one unifying theory.
00:00 The Marvelization of Cinema
01:52 What is Storytelling Entropy?
06:26 Hollow Franchises
11:15 Meta-References to Nowhere
17:40 Corporate Passion
25:23 Breaking the Cycle
33:08 Meaningful Engagement
Further Reading:
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Media included:
12 Angry Men; 2001 A Space Odyssey; A Good Day to Die Hard; A Hidden Life; Aftersun; Ahsoka; Alien; Alien vs. Predator; Aliens; Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania; Asteroid City; Avengers Age of Ultron; Avengers Endgame; Avengers Infinity War; Babylon; Barbie; Batman Begins; Batman v Superman; Blade Runner 2049; Captain America Civil War; Captain America The First Avenger; Captain America The Winter Soldier; Citadel; Deadpool; Decision to Leave; Die Hard; Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness; Dune; Dungeons and Dragons; Eternals; Foundation; Fast X; Free Guy; Game of Thrones; Ghostbusters Afterlife; Ghosted; Gladiator; Godzilla; Godzilla vs Kong; Goodfellas; Inception; Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny; Invasion of the Body Snatchers; Iron Man 3; Iron Man; John Wick Chapter 3 & 4; Jurassic Park; Jurassic World; Jurassic World Dominion; Lawrence of Arabia; Loki; Mission Impossible 1, 2, Fallout, Rogue Nation & Dead Reckoning; Moon Knight, Obi-Wan Kenobi; Ocean's Eleven; Once Upon a Time in Hollywood; Past Lives; Predator 1 & 2; Red Notice; Secret Invasion; Seven Samurai; Shang-Chi; She-Hulk; Spiderman 1 & 2; Spider-Man No Way Home; Star Wars A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, The Phantom Menace, The Revenge of the Sith, The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi & the Rise of Skywalker; Synecdoche New York; Terminator 1, 2 & Dark Fate; The Dark Knight, The Amazing Spider-Man 2; The Avengers; The Fabelmans; The Falcon and the Winter Soldier; The Flash; The Godfather 1 & 2; The Gray Man; The Hobbit Trilogy; The Lord of the Rings Trilogy; The Rings of Power; The Matrix 1 & 4; The Mummy; The Prestige; The Thing; The Witcher; Thor Love and Thunder; Thor Ragnarok; Thor The Dark World; Top Gun; Top Gun Maverick; Transformers Rise of the Beasts; Uncharted
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Oh look another wannabe boomer who doesn't know anything about cinema history and fetishishizes his own childhood by cherry picking only the good movies. Sorry kiddo, over saturation has always been a problem in cinema. Why do you think there were 30 Hop Along Cassidy movies?
It's almost as if taking a multitude of stories that circulate around a centralized theme, can provide the basis for a greater story to be told.
Kinda like... The Bible...
So is it "Entropic Storytelling"?
Or is it "Holistic Storytelling"?
I'd argue it's the second of the two...
When you look at a broken down puzzle, it appears as Chaos, but once you are provided insight into the holistic outcome of the puzzle, each piece is no Longer "Chaos", but rather, "Disorder"...
Which may seem like the same thing, but they aren't...
Chaos is determined by the inability to mesh with anything surrounding, not "Meshes with only certain parts, but isn't currently completed" is what disorder is...
They are indeed synonymous with one another, but they are not definitively the same as one another.
I think in terms of "The Whedonization" of TV and movies: Everyone is constantly quipping in an inappropriate yet oh so clever manner.
I now lost a lot of respect for this dude, he has gone the way of the cinema Chud or whine-drinking cinema uptight, I thought we got rid of this boring style of argument after we compared bad movies to cinema I mean how good does cinema need to be for you to watch and enjoy? also, this isn't cinema it's a TV show stop telling your audience lies, after all that you try to ask for support, no thank you
@@anthonyjohnson6199 What’s a wannabe boomer?
Living in NZ when the lotr trilogy was being filmed, it's hard to express how much the entire country got behind the production. Not just government support, but cottage industry, legions of extras travelling from small towns each of whom was dedicated to the source material, backcountry farms picking the best horses, tiny backyard forges, dedicated jewelers examining sketches from various Tolkien works, local helicopter pilots showing the best spots and working long hours. The work showed the passion of the production team but also the supporting passion of millions.
Aww that's incredible! I had no idea! Just added a whole nother layer to love about those films 💜💜
Yeah! Remember when the same happened for The Rings of Power? LOL
I knew it was important for New Zealanders but this is insane, knowing this makes me appreciate a lot more the commitment, and this is coming from an annoying prick who thought the movie took too many liberties, so yeah a lot of respect for New Zealand, greetings from Spain
Those movies were huge in 2003 to 2005 everybody loved them
@@Tethloach1 They came out in 2001-2003.
Part of marvelization is that it treats the audience of adult media like children, and the audience of children’s media like babies. It assumes that audiences need everything explained to them and they need a fast pace to keep their attention. That’s why older movies feel so refreshing to me, bc they actually give you time and space to breathe and opportunities to wonder and put the pieces together by yourself
well looking at today's society they aren't wrong to do so, today's mentality is more soy
I found a parallel in your lament to what Egoraptor said of new vs. old video games in his Sequelitis: Mega Man X video. It was an approximated incidence of players saying/feeling "Yeah, I get it" as games try to teach them about themselves. If you can digest the manic, theatrical narrative mode Arin (Egoraptor) takes, it's a good watch.
@@MGrey-qb5xztrue which is why we need more actual cinema to clean out the brain rot and maybe sprinkle some attention span into our brains
@@nbeutler1134 you mean for the coming generations , the current ones are hopeless
@@MGrey-qb5xz you know the cycle. weak men create hard times
I think it's key to recognize that this isn't just noticable in cinema, but other creative mediums as well. Videogames, music, anywhere that passion and creativity used to flourish, it is now so heavily cooperate and reliant on things like nostalgia as mentioned in the video. I don't think this video specifically pertains to just cinema, but society and art in general.
I see this in books as well. My brother is reading a novel for his book club that is 100% marketed as being "for adults", not youth lit, and it reads like a Tumblr post. Tumblr posts can be enjoyable in their own context, with their own brand of snarkiness and exaggeration for the sake of comedy and 3 tone shifts in a single paragraph. In a book that's supposed to have gone through an editing process? It's jarring. It wants to be a space opera and the narration quoted the "while you were doing [thing], I studied the blade" meme
Not to mention how many books are being marketed as just a laundry list of tropes. They might not actually be that once you read them, but I think it's telling publishers now think giving 4 tropes they believe apply to the story will sell it better than a proper synopsis.
I want to know what the story wants to tell me. I don't care that it's "hurt/comfort, found family".
Well those industries are run by venture capitalists, investment bankers, and marketers so there's the problem
You remind me of act-man's videos on Halo:5. The first lengthy videos of the kind that I got into and enjoyed.
It’s a society thing. Not unique to one thing
I feel like standup is the least effected out of the bunch@@andrewkelly1337
It started with Thor Ragnarok for me. I like Waititi's humour but there were a number of moments in that movie where a strong emotional connection could have been made but he fell back on quippy one liners. It was not only a missed opportunity to take the movie to the next level but it cheapened the moment. It's only gotten worse from there to be sure where everyone is doing it and they wonder why they're losing audiences. You have to go deeper than surface to make a lasting impression but studios only seem to have fast food on the menu.
Not sure which one came first but guardians 2 and Thor Ragnarok both had over the top ridiculous humor, so glad they dialed it back for guardians 3, wish I could say the same for the last thor but I quit the movie after they made the joke "half of our army got killed"...."half of our army always gets killed".... I rolled my eyes and turned it off.
The abuse started with Iron Man 3.
Same here. They essentially treated the destruction of a whole realm as a joke. To the point where I felt more for Rocket in Guardians 1 ("I didn't ask to be made like this!") than for the people of Asgard.
Iron Man was peak, everything after it was not my sauce. I'm glad people are finally coming to realize Marvel for what it is.
looks like fast food is back on the menu boys!
When Martin Scorsese said that Marvel wasn't cinema and they're "closer to theme parks than they are to movies", he got a lot of backlash. Now, everyone is realizing he was right the whole time.
He must be feeling very smug while the mcu crashes. I always thought the mcu was great for what it was. Just another form of entertainment. But everything gets ruined eventually when it gets milked.
No. Lots of people agreed with him back then and they still agree with him now. Those who didn't back then, they still don't now.
Just justifies why I never liked marvel in the first place
It wasn't always like that though. It is now... :(
I think its because people saw it as some sort of slight or negative because they forgot that theme parks are still fun, but for a different reason. Watching some weird (in a good way) A24 film vs a Marvel movie can both be enjoyable but for different reasons. The former is more an art piece that conveys a great story and a message, leaving you thinking. The latter is a blockbuster of grand battles between aliens and humans with super powers, its all flash, little substance.
You can enjoy your theme park ride, just dont forget that at the end of the day thats what it is, a flashy theme park ride. You know how it starts, you know how its going to end, but the ride in the middle is the fun. There's no greater message to riding the roller coaster, just that it can be a brief fun escape.
Irony poisoning is such a good term. LOTR is a good example of genuine, earnest emotion without the need to wink at the audience obnoxiously while feeling those emotions.
Irony is poison not just in film, but in people's lives. One who is just reducing everything with endless sarcasm and irony is living a hollow and increasingly miserable life where they attempt to derive to some satisfactiong from being ironic and insult the genuine. Its effectively variant of self-loathing except used against everything externally aswell, and just like self-loathing just shoves people down pit of depression same way being chronicly ironic/sarcastic person will wear down their psyche and cheapen any expierence in life they might have or turn people away from them. First as a mild annoyance later as increasing disdain for such person.
Marvel just showing it everywhere as stand in for comedy and in grander scheme of things popular media as a whole is ruining worldviews nad atittiudes of thousands of young people who thing being ironic is how they should approach life, which leads to wider societal problems we see envelop our world now. Its behind this wave of selfishness and insincerity, when people need the exact opposite to live good and happy lives...
Inspiring a feeling in someone and then mocking and belittling them for feeling it is actually a form of emotional abuse.
@@Kacpa2 I recently watched (again) one of my favorite movies: Ladyhawke. On its surface, it's a love story, but as I've grown older, I've come to realize that it's the story of noble souls lifting people up out of misery and cynicism by their pure example.
We need MORE stories like that, fictional and real.
I agree
Irony (like great many others things, physical and immaterial) is like medicine. Works great if dosage is right amount for the situation, use too much it becomes poison.
I recently distilled my feelings about corporate moviemaking down to "Corporations don't want storytellers, they want story factories".
Entropic storytelling is appealing to corporations because it can be cranked out rapidly; it doesn't rely on coherence, it relies on brand recognition, a thing that business majors understand and can easily make use of. It doesn't require careful writing or passionate cast and crew, which can be expensive and time-consuming, and even more expensive/time-consuming in unpredictable ways; in fact, you can rip entire chunks of story wholesale from existing movies, and you'll be praised for the homage--which means you can save massive amounts of time on figuring out what to do and skip straight to doing it. And, market forces encourage this--because a work of art doesn't start making money until after it's finished, there's immense economic pressure on the team to spend as little time in pre-production and production as possible, because every hour worked is an hour of wages that has not yet been recouped.
All of this pushes companies (and filmmakers!) toward making films by the numbers, because doing it in any other way means taking risks that are--in the opinion of those who believe in the story factory--unnecessary.
i think it also comes down to studios wanting -- needing -- the illusion of control in a process where control is not really possible. (it's not even trying to create actual control, just creating the illusion of control, which is much easier.)
@@bencaldwell6032 That's a part of it, yeah. Publishers want a guarantee that a story will sell. There's no real way to do that, but there's plenty of fake ways to do it.
The profit motive is something that sucks art dry. The need to make money out of art b/c otherwise you won't eat (or b/c you want more money) is a disservice to humanity really.
It is really sad that we produce so much food and yet so many are starving. That we have created buildings that reach the clouds, and yet many have nowhere to live. That we have the means to support better life conditions for all 7bi of us, and yet we don't b/c the costs in the short term are too large.
Most people if they had their basic necessities fulfilled, they would be free to make incredible projects and to live better in general. All of us would, instead of having to work a job that doesn't add anything to society b/c we need the money.
I swear they're already using AI to write some films and not telling us, Marvel is enough of a trope at this point even a computer could write it. Jokes on us though, we're the ones who keep buying tickets.
And that’s why AI has become a thing
Great essay. I think one major point that has started to ruin many modern movies that I didn't hear mentioned: You don't have to tear down your heroes to introduce new ones. I think this has to do with our modern nihilism, or lack of respect for what previous generations built, but it seems like most sequels nowadays can't help but belittle and tear down their previous heroes, in order to prop up any new ones they're bringing in. The MCU, Star Wars, and Indiana Jones are just some of the biggest examples that pop into my head.
One reason Top Gun Maverick was so successful was that they didn't tear down their hero. They gave him new challenges, and had him in a different stage of life, but he was still a force to be reckoned with, who had a lot to share with the younger pilots. I guarantee if Disney had made that movie, they would have made him a washed up has-been, who is shown up by the newer pilots. And nobody wants to see that.
Such a good point. When I watched Top Gun Maverick I was expecting there to be many aside jokes about his age, and while there were it was just coming from the young people. He was actually still a strong character and he didn't do little quips like "I'm getting too old for this shit" or "ow my knee! I'm an old man now I guess lolz"
Wow, you are so right. I never noticed this before but now I'm going to be seeing it over and over since you've pointed it out. It's as if they think that there's only a finite amount of dignity to go around, so they have to take it away from the previous hero in order to give it to the new one. And I think a lot of it also comes from society's worship of youth and fear of aging.
@@legacy5k This is spot on!
Agreed for the most part, but disagree on Indiana Jones. I thought Dial of Destiny was a respectful send-off for the character. Yeah, it featured him dealing with the struggles of age and fading relevance, but instead of trying to replace or belittle him, it honors the character and lets his story come come to a gentle and poignant end.
The tearing down of old cultural heroes is the whole point of those movies.
One point that was in this video that has been something I've been saying for years now: We need stories that END. Not stories that are cancelled. Not stories that exhaust themselves into oblivion. Not stories that change their essence so much in the name of continuation that they don't resemble their origins anymore.
I feel a lot of ourselves as an audience are to blame for this. We get so attached to stories that we don't ever want it to end. I sometimes feel like every single person I talk to about this kind of thing simply don't want to see their beloved stories end, and I cannot understand why, if the alternative to it actually ending is always one of gradual disinterest or actual degeneration of what it was before.
To me, it doesn't matter how great and amazing a story actually is if it doesn't have an intended ending to it. It's like making an absolutely beautiful and delicious cake only to use sewage as the icing, or keep messing with it until it actually starts to spoil and become rotten when you're still starting to make the icing. What we crave as spectators, readers and story-enjoyers in general is COMPLETE stories.
As much as we would love to have something that can last forever, no such thing can exist in regards to narratives. That is a hard truth to accept but it is definitely a necessary one. I can only hope that either the industry realizes that, or the mass of audiences do so in an effective way that it shows itself in the movie industry investor's paycheck.
“You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
If there are stories that do the "every ending is a new beginning" thing, then fine with me, rather than just cliffhanger after cliffhanger after cliffhanger after * insert the phrase "cliffhanger after" being copypasted *
When I finished Brent Weeks "Blinding White" I was struck by the fact that it was the first book series I'd read in the last 5 years that had actually straight up ended the series. Not "The adventure continues" or "and now, another tale in the same universe" just straight up "The good guys fight the bad guys and win, the end." It was actually really refreshing.
I'm a game developer and often analyze games. Just like you're saying how modern movies need to tell stories that have an ending, games these days don't quite hold the same quality as they used to (in my opinion) because so many of them are not designed to have an ending. Today's games all want to be franchises and games-as-a-service and want to keep you hooked as long as possible. It's exhausting. Maybe I just notice it more with games than movies because you are more actively engaged when playing a game, but I'm just so tired of the games I play not having a proper ending. I just want to move on with my life and focus on something else for a change. Movie franchises these days make me feel the same way. I'm so fatigued by all the Marvel and Star Wars stuff that I once enjoyed that I just can't even be bothered to take note of what they have coming out anymore
@@caleron6945 I completely agree with you! While I may not have worded my comment properly, I was referring to stories in general. Be it movies, books, video games, TV series, animations, whatever form it may take.
The effect of the expectation of generating as much revenue for as long as possible from creative material like stories (in all previously mentioned forms) is definitely a major contributor to this effect.
"It's like the weekly adventure has become the daily homework" is honestly a brilliant summation of the exhaustion everyone seems to be feeling.
Definitely! Things are no longer enjoyable as they once were ...
@@zaraillyReward centre burnout due to chronic internet / smart device usage. Eliminate home internet and you will begin to rebalance.
The same thing that happened to MMOs: daily "assigned" tasks to be completed as if on a checklist, as opposed to the free-form "choose-your-own" adventures of the old school. Media has stopped requesting audience to think.
Why then everyone keeps consuming this cancerously popular and meaningless shit? I stopped carrying about Marvel at the time Iron Man 3 came out. I saw Avengers and this was the end for me. It was so boring it made me angry.
Then, after a while, I saw Doctor Strange, and it was the same shit. There is no reason to watch it, why do you watch it?
typical hollywood: they find a formula that worked because it was so unique and they beat it like a dead horse until it's not just stale but reviled. Reminds me of how there were a million shaky cam found footage movies after the Blair Witch Project or how there was a flood of slasher films set in the woods after Friday the 13th. Now every exectutive seems to ask "cant we make this into a shared universe?" even without laying down any kind of ground work first.
I dont even watch Marvel programs anymore because i missed one of the Avengers movies and there are so many references and plot points I missed that I couldnt really watch other movies that came after so i just gave up on the franchise as a whole. The fact every movie felt the same doesnt really help, even with a completely different cast and crew its less like a different movie and more like an episode in a series, or like a Seth McFarland show where even with different characters it still feels like Family Guy 7.0
Wandavision was a turning point for me. It was a passion project that explored grief and loss. And marvel saw it did well and their only takeaway was "clearly we need more shows!" And completely missed the actual love that went into the script and the sets.
Exactly. Doctor Strange Multiverse felt like it totally ignored all the personal growth that Wanda had in WandaVision. Like, didn't we just do this story??
Yes. I was moved by WandaVision and couldn’t wait to see what would happen next. Same with the first Loki season.
@@theflutefreak Yes! WandaVision was beautiful, and the Doctor Strange sequel just threw all the development away. That was when I checked out of Marvel.
Disney was trying to start streaming war at the time, and went with quantity over quality.
That's why we to this day, are getting a far cheaper Agatha continuiation, rather than a more expensive Vision continuiation.
They didn't even make it through the whole show. They made it like 5 episodes, then veered into, "member Quicksilver? Well HA, it's not him, HERE'S A DICK JOKE!" and then kept on going to wrap up this small, intimate story with not 1, but 2 fights of people hanging from wires, throwing CGI at each other (and in one case, a guy throwing CGI at himself!) as the big climax.
It's genuinely impressive just how far big movies will go to not have a 'real' moment in a movie. To completely stomp out any genuine moments between characters by adding one final line that makes the entire conversation become a joke. It works sometimes, it really does. The right characters with the right relationship can nail a scene. Where the comedy is part of the discusion they are having to ease tension. But instead alot of times it's meant to basically derail the impactful moment at the last second and segway out of it to the next scene. Either delaying the actual impactful part of the conversation or undermining its meaning.
This is why I loved the new Dune so much. No irony, no inappropriate jokes. It took itself and its story seriously. It didn't constantly undermine its own characters and themes. Seeing that movie for the first time gave me a new hope for blockbuster movies, and science fiction especially
It also helps that it's made by the best director alive.
Yeah. Unfortunately Dune is the exception, not the new rule.
they did slip one in near the beginning, duncan quipping with paul about his height. i feel like it was there purely to be put in a trailer.
@@TehWaltorn Oh yeah I forgot about that lol. But let's not act like quipping and jokes are inherently bad or that Marvel invented jokes.
Hell, even in LOTR which is the focus of this video, they joke and quip during the battles. It's not like two friends joking with each other in a movie is an automatic death sentence for that film and its integrity.
The problem is when those jokes are used, as the original commenter said "inappropriately".
Yeah, that Dune scene was kinda not that great too, but they didn't use that or joke when a character was dying or they didn't use jokes and quips in the middle of a serious scene.
Just like LOTR didn't use those jokes when a character dies or in a serious and emotional scene just to alleviate the scene so it wouldn't be too emotional or serious for the audience or going "hey guys, we know this is all fiction and kinda corny. It's a bit cringe, right? Aren't we cool for acknowledging this?" and all that stuff.
Sometimes too seriously. The sterile muted color schemes where dune isn't devoid of different colors. That's why the original while stupid and inane still feels better to look at.
I still remember fondly how the artisans of the LOTR team modified a custom Rohirrim bike seat for Theoden, because he couldn't sit on a normal chair in his armor and they didn't think that a regular bike seat was what the King of Rohan should sit on.
There was more passion and soul poured into this very bike seat than in all the armor of the Rings of Power combined.
In the appendices, Benard Hill (Theoden), showed off his armor, which had decals/etchings all along the interior. A detail nobody would ever possibly ever see.
"It made me feel like a king every time I put it on." -Bernard Hill
@@NakAlienEd Wonderful details like this matter.
And it basically reflects Tolkiens own work.
The passion and effort you put into your foundation matters.
Even if nobody might be able to see it.
@@NakAlienEd I must be in a certain mood today because thinking of the care and artistry that someone had (whose name we will probably never know) made me tear up.
@@winterstormmaya Yeah, just reading this comment thread had me starting on the same thing... but the relaxed sadness of the outro music probably contributed as a catalyst.
The passion I remember around _Lord of the Rings_ was that of the locals in New Zealand fighting against a gigantic Hollywood studio that stomped all over them with an ex-local at the helm, a sort of passion you won't find in an ad-campaign documentary about how everyone involved fell in love with the project, or, rather, the product.
11:41 that little joke is actually fantastic and VERY true to D&D. When playing D&D and you finish a big bad evil guy, you may be asked to describe the finishing move. In this scene you can almost hear the player saying “So I grab them! And you know that bit in Avengers with the Hulk and Loci?….”
The whole film is also working on that other higher level where players choose to do random and cheesy stuff.
I noticed this too. It *all* was in the little pauses. Characters would stop, just for a moment, and then do something. It literally felt like their player saying 'now I do this!'
The most obvious moment of this in the entire movie to me was when Edgin (the bard) tried to cheer up Holga (the barbarian) after she met her now-remarried ex-husband by pulling out his lute and just starting to play a song for her.
Yeah, in that case it was more like a reference to a real D&D table than truly a reference to nowhere. It's the cheesiness and the anachronisms as well that definitely look like they're being translated form a tabletop game.
I think this is an example of how people who know too much about movies can confuse things :) I watched all the mentioned movies but didn't even think about that Halk joke. Not every similarity is a reference.
To this day I feel like half the writing was from the staff actually playing dnd and being like "Okay that was good, let's use that."
My evidence? The illusion spell freaking out had to have been a critical failure in an actual game once.
@@milleniumfrisbee They had the cast play many hours of D&D as their characters before filming started.
Man, I'm so glad you touched on irony-poisoning. I've been trying to coin my own term for it whenever I get time to think about it, but this is perfect. It really is an epidemic against genuineness.
the actual term for what he is talking about is lampshading, irony poisoning is something else
@@oldcowbb while I agree that irony poisoning is the wrong term here, lampshading is too.
@@oldcowbbIt 100% isn’t lamp-shading.
That’s about plot elements and contrivances being addressed so they can be ignored.
It’s just desperately avoiding sincerity
One thing I've noticed in the Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy: Whenever a Lightsaber is drawn in anger, something significant happens. Someone either loses a limb or loses their life.
A Lightsaber drawn in anger CHANGES things.
in Disneywars however, it's just flashing lights and colours, followed by someone running away. It's pathetic how they've reduced such a meaningful thing to a mere lightshow.
Disney wanting to make as much money as possible, to target as many people as possible ..... yep
No hate, but I think this comment is part of the reimagining the Prequels as good, when they never were. Lightsabers were rare and few in the original trilogy, and each time they were activated something significant happened, but I don't think this was true in the prequels. Obi Wan and Qui Gon whipped them out real quick in Phantom Menace for that sweet, sweet nostalgia, and in Attack of the Clones, we had a horde of Jedi swinging them around, which cheapened their meaningfulness and effect.
@@drewwhite181correct. Fan of it all but incredible what nostalgia does to some people
I also think this has to do with CGI becoming cheaper and easier. This results in films over capitalizing on special effects/computer graphics and investing nothing in telling the story that leads to a larger moment.
You been watching Red letter Media?
The lotr point you made is golden. LOTR feels like a trilogy made to be remembered instead of made to make money. The world building, the storytelling, the characters: everything had so much passion and dedication in it. All the characters feel real, they have real emotions and they have realistic dialogue. Lotr feels like home. I feel like rings of power was made because lotr was successful and had a good fanbase, not because they really wanted to show the world Tolkien made.
That's what genuine passion does
Edit: Also money because (unpopular opinion) there's a lack of it nowadays due to piracy
Absolutely
@@markmuller7962 The amazon series the rings of power has a bigger budget than the Peter Jackson's Trilogy mate, most marvel trashfires do too. Your opinion isn't unpopular, it's wrong.
@@GleepVonReticuli First of all you can't extrapolate a trend from individual subjects, go inform yourself and get your method straight.
In addition "rings of power" is not a Hollywood movie, it's a TV series. With your reasoning we might end up talking of videogames but let's stop right there shall we
@@markmuller7962 Look at the marvel movies then, the budget grew from Ironman to the latest marvels flop. I don't think you fathom how expensive modern movies are with all the CGI and extensive reshoots. Yes they look cheap and amateurish but they have way more money put into them than ever before.
The Hobbit movies were more expensive than the Lord of the Rings'.
The latest Indiana jones flop had a bigger budget than the three good indiana jones movies put together.
How can you say there's less money in hollywood?
On the Owlbear smashing scene, this makes sense to people that plays RPG such as D&D. It's a reference that we as players would make, because movies would inspire us. This feeling of being "playing" D&D was very well done by that movie, through language and those type of references.
The bulk character smashing the magic one makes a lot of sense for D&D and other context as well. Wizards are a crystal canon (low life, lot's of damage), if your melee get him, he's done.
I'm not convinced of the meta-reference nature of these scenes, although they sometimes try to make it work like that. I think the real reason is that it's all animated for the most part. This is something that has been going on since Disney at least, how their cartoons reuse scenes and movements, but just repurpose them. I think that's the reason all scenes in modern movies are the same. They already have the motion-capture data and the animations. Most of the work has already been done. Just switching out the models and the background, and you have a "new" scene for a "different" movie. Then they just need to fill in the blanks between the repurposed scenes. What we're left with is seeing the same scenes in every goddamn movie.
@@TopLob I found DnD to be the exception tho, everyone I know that plays DnD loves the movie, me and my wife included, cus it feels very much like the dumbass decisions we make with the heart of it too. Disney on the other hand, since Enchnanted has been trying to be more meta not understanding why Enchanted worked as a movie and its just icky when they do it
"Wizards are a crystal canon" so glass canon but more... precious? That def sounds like a wizard.
as a kid. I watched Jurassic Park and was mesmerized. It became a hobby of mine to look at dinosaurs in museums, books, cds and games dino related. I even got a big, thick hard cover book that only was about the making of the movie. From the storyboard, to every animatronic detail.
Remember how we used to buy Soundtracks from movies? I still have my back to the future soundtrack. These movies inspired us. Our culture have degraded to just consume a product that looks pretty and shiny.
Excellent video.
A lot of creators seem so scared of being sincere. We’ve become jaded.
We need more Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. We need more movies willing to embrace the storytelling elements that are “corny” and engaging with them honestly. Corny is only bad when its hollow, you have to mean it and take it seriously for it to work
Yeah but hollywood is hollow, gotta write what you know
Reminds me how I loathe pun apologism.
You don't have to mean it ironically, or metaphorically, or any other fancy way. You have to mean it straight up ;)
@@psiimpresiones Nice
The creators aren't scared of being sincere. The execs who write the checks are. You tell writers and directors they have free reign and to go nuts they will gladly do so. But they want their story to be made and released.
I first witnessed the 'irony poisoning' many years ago manifest in comic strips, where clever humour became replaced with basic sarcasm, then it infected television, etc It's yet another form of 'lazy writing'
was the "clever humor" you reference just nostalgia enhanced dad jokes?
The real irony is that kind of thing spread so wide across a cast also dilutes the individual characters who WERE actually built around those traits, making them LESS stand-out or distinctive.
It started in the late 80’s/early 90’s. It was cute for about two weeks. And then they never stopped.
@@voidshadow Hey now! There's always a place for bad dad jokes. I will agree that that place is NOT "every single character" though.
@@voidshadow no it wasn't
This is probably the first cinema video essay that didn't make me feel existential doom. Thank you for approaching your work with such care.
I think you summed it best when you described the problem with so many shared universes failing because the studios viewed shared universes as marketing devices instead of story telling devices. I think that's an idea that applies to a lot of the points that you made, and I don't think I've ever seen someone explain it so succinctly before.
Awesome that someone finally addresses the irony problem. It’s just like the narcissistic spirit of mean tweets, puns, “clever” comebacks and comments, and the awful TikTok style, contaminated stories.
You might be interested in reading E Unibus Pluram: Television and Fiction by David Foster Wallace. It’s the best writing on the topic of irony in media I’ve ever read
“Snark” is a lot older than that. The 1.0 internet is very much built on snark.
"Finally"? Audiences have been complaining about it and critics have been analyzing it for over a decade now.
@@jnnx Man 1.0 internet wasn't even built on snark, I think we unironically called people we disliked "teh suxorz" with the only irony coming from pretending we were even worse at writing than we definitely were.
I don't have a problem with snark and irony, but the problem is, there are too many bad copies of those few well-executed versions.
To add to your evidence: I first watched the Peter Jackson LoTR trilogy last year, at 21 years old. I have always been a fan of high fantasy but never indulged myself with Tolkien, and even felt a certain stigma towards his work for some reason. I watched the first movie for a class on philosophy.
I loved it.
I loved it so much that I watched the next two movies immediately after. I loved the TRILOGY so much that I asked my girlfriend to watch them with me. WE loved them so much that we rewatched the extended cut of all three movies a month later. This cinema was *good*. It stood the test of time and was evidence of an era where filmmaking was different. I won't say it's better or worse objectively, but those movies moved me in a way that I hadn't felt since childhood.
Seeing LOTR in theatres opening night is still the most memorable cinema experience I've ever had.
@@SuperCatacatasame! When the second one came out we re-watched the first one at home before going to the theater. When we went to see the third, we re-watched the first two immediately before. Invited friends over (our D&D group, all huge Tolkien fans) and made it a party!
Of course we had differences of opinion on some directorial choices (elves at Helm's Deep, Hobbits to Osgiliath, the change in Gandalf's attitude towards Moria) but we all loved both the books and the movies.
I can’t imagine being super into high fantasy -and then not reading the original high fantasy.
What happened to the kids? It’s a genuine question.
@@namedrop721 not sure what you mean about the kids, Tolkien just didn't cross my radar when I was younger. I went back and read the books after seeing the movies, but bear in mind I was already an adult by then lol
Im just now wtching it and for being 22 years old, that nearly 4 hours flew by. the story and everything was just so good.
I read the original LOTR books when I was 11 years old, which was the year before the first film, The Fellowship of the Ring, was released, and I had read the Hobbit first, probably as a 10 year old.
I still remember hearing that there were movies coming out and agonizing that the films couldn't possibly capture the depth of the books I had just read. Needless to say I was wrong, and today those three films are still among my favourites of all time. They really do capture the 'ancient magic'. I feel lucky to be old enough to have experienced early childhood and adolescence in an analogue, pre-internetified, pre-memefied world. And I'm only 34 years old.
This really well encapsulates something I hadn't realized I was struggling with. So much of the new media feels like a faded copy, instead of a story someone is excited to share. I actually did like the Hobbit, but only the first one. I think another big issue there was the difference in the size of the source material - it's one thing to take three long books and make three long movies, but to take one average book and force three long movies out of it? And add a romance that no one asked for? That just leads to it feeling... thin, like butter scraped over too much bread. I've actually found a fan edit that breaks it down into The Hobbit and the Battle of Dol Goldur, and it reads a lot smoother. The Hobbit does feel like someone playing with someone else's toys in someone else's sandbox, mostly just waiting for the call in for snacktime, which makes me sad since those were the ones I was old enough to see in theatres.
I also really wanted to like the Witcher, and I did somewhat, but the writing was so obviously designed for binge watching that watching an episode or two at a time made it feel really disconnected. I love the universe, I loved the casting (especially Henry Cavill as Geralt, who did an amazing job and is a huge fan of the series himself), but it ended up just feeling like a well dressed cash grab. There was no delayed gratification, and no sense of a cohesive narrative woven through the season - just one issue after another, without it really changing the world or the characters.
eh, I like The Hobbit trilogy.
Is it as good as LOTR? No, that was catching lightning in a bottle. But they are good movies, and it is a good trilogy.
We are jaded.
I feel like a lot of modern media is afraid to be itself. You can see it in classic horror movies or japanese godzilla that while they're not always good they're films with an identity and not just a name. This can go in multiple ways, like Marvel's need to constantly joke about how silly it is people run around in costumes or how stories which could stand on their own get attached to a property and dilute it for name recognition's sake.
They won’t be genuine anymore. There was another good video on this. The trope talk on bathos.
There is no "self" in a premade nostalgic package
i agree.
marvel movies also used to be more serious (as serious as superhero movies can ever be) but then it feels like they just kinda lost their faith in the series and made it more tongue in cheek later on.
just compare earlier thor movies to the later on thor movies. there is such a world of difference in how they treat their stories.
@@sudanemamimikiki1527 The first two Thor movies were downright Shakespearean--solemn and dramatic, but with dashes of humor to lighten the stories without undercutting them. The third starts a downhill slide, mocking the main character like he needs to be punished for the terrible sin of being a powerful masculine figure and making him the butt of just about every joke, and the fourth one just ran harder with that.
Absolutely right. That's why the DUNE franchise feels way more refreshing then it actually is, or something like ANDOR. Those stories take themselves seriously and form their own identities, and rise above poking fun at themselves because they believe audiences are smarter and can be more invested than Marvel or other properties give them credit for
This describes so well one of the reasons I think the series “Andor” stands out starkly from so much of the Star Wars content coming out lately. It doesn’t rely on cheap nostalgia baiting and doesn’t even expand on the Skywalker saga but tells the story of the rebellion from another perspective, from the ordinary, non-Force-sensitive peoples’ experience. And it goes back to the core idea of what inspired the Rebellion for those people.
Yes exactly! I also want to address the fact that Andor really feels like a long movie.
It always gave me the impression that the director had to make a TV series for corporate reasons, but didn't want to force on himself the "TV format" so he just cut the movie into pieces without losing his vision and himself while doing it.
If this makes sense, I really think it's a good example of how you can compromise with the corporation, without losing your vision
It's literally just sincerity. It lets its characters have heart. Every other show is very aware that it's Star Wars, and comes across as goofy and lazy because the name recognition allows them to do the bare minimum. Andor is a good story that happens to be set adjacent to the Star Wars franchise.
Same! I loved how intimate, fresh and honest Andor felt , I want more of that
Wondering if it will last ....or be corrupted like everything else 😢
And switching gears to talk about halo in the same manner, I wish 343 or another studio can make a Halo game separate from the master chief again. Like maybe a dedicated flood horror game where you play as a civilian during an infection or a marine/ODST. They rely so much on the Chief and his story should’ve been done after 3. Let the hero slowly drift away in a piece of the old frigate that hauled him around and give another person the stage. Sometimes these franchises create such insane worlds and you only ever see a small part of it across most game entries because these AAA companies nowadays can’t or won’t do anything that won’t rake in an absolutely absurd amount of money. The art is gone mostly
I've struggled to like a lot of popular movies and such (that's not a brag) in general but over the last 10ish years I've become really apathetic towards seeing new ones that come out. Empty nostalgia makes a lot of sense. There's this barrier to feeling like you're in the story and enveloped in it that's created by the "funny little quips" and such, and it keeps me from being emotionally invested in the story, which is how I experience films and books. I don't want to be reminded that I'm taking a break from the world by watching the movie with dialog from the actors (his example of the mom saying "that was cheesy wasn't it"), I want to be fully immersed in the movie.
Really appreciated the way this explained so much and also got me thinking, as well.
Omg you nailed it. Its the difference between filmmakers pursuing a studio greenlight to let them make their passion-project versus studios commissioning certain stories and then getting the passionate staff on board. Thats it, youve nailed it.
The thumbnail nails something I hadn’t even noticed. The lighting! In content, there’s just this perfect bloom lighting because everything is on a stage, studio, volume, or set. Location is harsh, but looks real, it’s not always flattering but that’s part of it. But if your goal is to make your beautiful star always beautiful, everything is gonna look different
“It’s like the weekly adventure has become daily homework” THIS is the perfect way to describe it
I was lucky enough to see the full extended editions of all LOTR movies for the first time just last month in the cinema (or unlucky as I managed to have never witnessed them before); I can safely say it’s not everyone’s nostalgia, those movies actually made me feel something, I mean the soundtrack was just beautiful and the passion clearly shon through. I was continually astounded at some of the shots given when it was filmed, and loved every part of the adventure - it was a lengthy 9 hours or so but you know what? It was worth it. It did not feel like homework, rather it felt like stepping back into the fantasy stories I used to love as a kid (Merlin anyone?). It’s been a long time since I felt like that in a cinema, or watching anything now. I feel like no one gives anything the time it requires, the corporate bosses want content for content’s sake.
I can't even begin to express how grateful I am to have been able to watch this. By making videos like this, you are in a way helping snap people out of the trance that is associated with consuming todays media and entertainment and reminding them of where the bar was once set for quality films. A huge variable is definitely online streaming, people are able to consume so much so quickly now that keeping up with your "favorite" series and films can seem like a chore, so people binge them half awake and barely paying attention just to be able to say they finished it so they can move to the next one without really giving it a second thought.
The thumbnail of the video says it all. The look in Viggo Mortensens eyes is full of complex emotion and is so captivating. Its earnest acting and is juxtaposed to the image from rings of power which always rang hollow because it only ever aimed to hit a series of beats to excite the audience rather than looking at a bigger picture and telling a compelling story with well motivated and deep characters.
Too bad thousands of bad non marvel movies exist. Both Logan and taxi driver are great movies. Let's not blame marvel because nobody trying to watch your favorite movies.
@@thialhoinj1971 What. They didn't even mention marvel ONCE in their comment. I don't know if you're responding to a deleted comment or you're a marvel obsessed lunatic
@@thialhoinj1971???
@@Hyperion4K marvel has made bad movies recently but who hasn't? Logan, winter soldier,I Infinity war, iron man and more are great movies. Logan and taxi driver are both great movie. Mcu besides recently was a success in everyway for a decade.
@@thialhoinj1971 Logan was Fox, not Marvel. And I'm not sure why you're bringing up Taxi Driver. Anyway of course Marvel's made good movies, the Infinity Saga was pretty impressive as well, but the point is that the general trend they've created in our culture is not a positive one, and they've fallen victim themselves to this negative trend that they've created.
It's fine if you still like the MCU. I've enjoyed a few of their more recent shows. But a lot of us are getting really tired of this kind of passionless storytelling that's designed for corporate objectives rather than thematic ones, and this is the point that OP was making, as well as the video itself (edited to remove some slight unintended snark).
Movies these days are afraid to have truly heartfelt moments between characters. Every time you feel there is going to be some genuine emotion it gets undercut by a gag, or it's nostalgia baiting by showing a dead actor and forcing you to feel sad about it (looking at Ghostbusters: Afterlife). Movies these days that let characters really show caring, even with the cheesiest of dialogue, can be really moving.
Thor: Ragnarok was really really bad about this. Thor gets big damn speech about how he's gonna have to do things himself without Hulk's help. Music Swells. He goes to break the window to escape, hits himself in the face. So stupid.
@@sekh765 and Ragnarok is actually probably one of the best implementations of this kind of stuff... since then it's only gotten worse.
@@shaansingh6048 I'd agree with that. Love and Thunder was a disaster of bathos.
See: trope talk on bathos
I don't think people know what "chessy" dialogue is anymore. People like Tarantino ruined that for people.
This phenomenon seems relatively new with movies. But I've seen it happening constantly with books.
It's the simple scenario of an author writing a story out of nothing, simply because he wanted to tell it and share it.
Then he publishes that story and, somehow, it ends up being very successful and even earning him a living.
But then, the necessity to write the sequel to follow up the success of the original kicks in. So he does it. He writes a sequel that turns out to be quite mediocre when compared to the original.
That is the difference between creating something out of passion and ingenuity vs creating something pressed by necessity and money while follow the formula you already made.
Some examples of authors who lived that regrettable out come would be:
Manel Loureiro, with Apocalypse Z. The direct sequel was actually decent, but the third book was quite terrible.
Ernest Cline, with Ready Player One. That is one author who seems completely unable to get out his comfort zone.
Patrick Rothfuss, with The Kingkiller Chronicles. He is directly so insecure about his unperfected 3rd book that he hasn't even released it or said a word for more than a decade. And the three books were supposedly written even before he released the first one.
As a wise person once said: *those who simply work hard aren't rivals for those who have fun doing it.*
Yes the Rothfuss example! He is sooo insecure about it. I read an interview where he said he needs his books to change people/the world... WTF!? No wonder you're too scared to put out the next book! Talk about unrealistic self-imposed pressure!
Holy shit, my sister got me the Name of the wind for Christmas. I finished it and its so damn good. I hope the sequel is just as good!
Im kinda bummed that the third book wont be out for quite some time tho
the Diary of a Wimpy Kid-ization of cinema 😂
The best example of "anti entropic storytelling" or directoral concept, are when every step of the production from scenes, writing, sound, and music all lean into the main directoral concept.
The sincerity vs irony argument is so emphatically true. That shit in blockbusters has been bugging me for years. So many of them completely undercut their own emotional impact for a cheap joke. It’s beyond frustrating at this point.
I couldn't quite put my finger on why I didn't enjoy IT Chapter 2 as much as I enjoyed the first movie, but this nails it exactly. Constantly cutting to Bill Hader for one-liners lowered the stakes and took me out of the suspense and fear. Even though I appreciated the extra-textual references to movies like The Thing, they took me out of the movie's world.
I am so thankful Dune didnt do that…
So true. Case and point for me was where in the new star wars, Rey finally finds Luke and when she gives him the lightsaber after the entire build up... he throws it away - in a way thats obviously for comedic effect. Completely undercut the tension and importance of the story for that cheap joke. Very disappointing
It's why I think the Lord of the Rings still works. It has humor, but when it's sincere, it's really feeling all the feelings. Characters cry and scream and grief, they make desperate pleas, and when they ride into battle, you can feel that it's a fight for their life. With Marvel, it always feels like nobody takes their fights seriously, and when they suddently do take it seriously and try to build up drama, it doesn't work.
@@AlexisHiemis yeah, Lotr had Gimli + Legolas to make battles less serious and some jokes like Gandalf "scaring“ Sam but overall no big emotional moment is undercut.
To add to the conversation, something I feel is missing today is diversity in genre and target audience.
In my personal experience, growing up in the 90s and 2000s, you had G rated movies that even toddlers could enjoy, like the Pixar and Disney renaissance cartoons, and then you had PG movies like Jumanji, Zathura, or Dinosaur, which, while still aimed at kids, had more of an edge to them, with elements of horror and heavy action. Watching those for the first time was like getting a taste of something forbidden, like you knew this was definitely for older kids, and it made you feel like more of an adult.
Then you had PG13 movies like the Jurassic Park, Spiderman, and LOTR trilogies that were made specifically for adults, but if you were a kid in the double digits watching with your parents, you could probably handle it ok.
Maybe even some high school comedy like Mean Girls or 10 Things I Hate About You caught your eye and you'd get a glimpse of the world of WAY older kids, which was fascinating to a preteen.
Nowadays it seems like everything that isn't rated R is either a cartoon for toddlers that's rated PG but really should be G, or a marvelized PG13 movie that's designed to appeal to literally all ages. It's like everything has to be a hybridization of everything, scifi, action, comedy, romance (but no horror, can't have that), and all those elements are trying to hit that perfect medium where teens and adults without kids will be interested, but parents feel safe bringing their kids too, so as many tickets can be sold as possible.
Marvelized movies are for grown-ups, but also sanitized to the point where kids won't be scared off. No more action movies with horror aspects, no more adult comedies, nothing is genre specific or age group specific, at least not to the degree it was before.
Having seen and enjoyed your videos, it's a pleasant surprise to see you here. That's a great point you raise about how diverse the film landscape of the pre-2010s was. The hybridization effect isn't even like an organic blend of genres, but like a Frankenstein's Monster of different styles, approaches, and production values, with little cohesion. Marvel Studios really did kneecap the film landscape.
@@oscarstainton I has been a broader slower moving phenomenon than just Marvel. Marvel has just because the figure head because it dominated a whole decade of cinema. But if you look at big budget animated films the trend of corporate production with no sincerity has been there much longer. Shrek is probably the stand out there back in 2001 (8 years before the MCU) and really kicks off the pop culture referencing, meta-commentary, irony-laden insincerity. Hopefully this peaked with the "Emoji Movie" but we'll have to wait and see. I suspect it is a some kind of cognitive bias, with producers and studios seeing in the flops what they want to see - e.g. audiences just don't want X kind of movie - rather than the reality that they made a bad movie. In general, I find people tend to overestimate their ability to BS, and underestimate the ability of others to see through that BS.
A broader audience means, to the marketting department, more money.
Sanding off edges until everything looks the same.
This also happens with videogames. A lot of mainstream productions try to have everything in them, also trying to appeal to the widest demographics.
By being jacks of all trades they end up being masters of none, which is why niche projects are the most satisfying.
I really think on top of this, people need to deprioritize playing to a demographic. Storytellers should just...want to tell stories.
Ooh, the note about the LOTR making-of features was a really good point! When I watched those extras, I wished that I had just got on a plane to NZ back when they were shooting, walked up to the studio, and begged them to let me assemble chain-mail or whatever. That many passionate skilled people doing their best together... what a thing to be a part of!
*EDIT:* Am I the only one who liked _The Gray Man?_ I feel like everyone else knows something I don't. I found it to be a fun, stylish Ryan Gosling James Bond type deal.
This entire video was a breath of fresh air to me. Your voice is soothing, the ideas are presented concisely and clearly, and... it just clicks. Thanks for your effort!
Needed to be said and you said it well, Tom. So much is lost in film now. It's all sensationalist without the sensation. So many franchises blew us away that have become soulless and mechanized.
Hollywood is imploding now, so they will have to change
It hasn't you just don't know anything about history.
My thoughts exactly.
Didn’t both Star Wars and LotR become merchandise by the Prequels and Hobbit trilogy respectively?
my biggest question is how does a tv show relate to cinema?
It is honestly so sad how the extended editions of the LoTR movies no longer comes in that beautiful packaging. I remember unfolding it as a 11 year old and spend hours browsing the concept art gallery on the DVDs.
I still have it.
yeah seems like a thing a 11 year old would be entertained by
I was in my twenties and I absolutely loved it. That is why I have long lamented the decline of physical media. Streaming movies and music doesn't give you the extras that you sometimes got with certain projects. It was a real treat to get a book with lyrics or related art. Seeing deleted scenes or hearing how the director created the movie added richness to albums and movies that you already loved. I know we still have access to lyrics, art, and behind the scenes footage, but it's just not the same. Also, there used to be a limited amount of this stuff available, at least with cds and dvds. With the internet, there is often too much information that you have to sift through to get to what you want. That also feels like homework sometimes. I'm certainly not knocking the internet, but I just miss buying a product and getting little extras with it that enhanced the experience.
I got a blu-ray with all 3 and it doesn't even have the extended editions! It's still the theatrical cut! Why would they still make a release that doesn't at least have the option to watch the full versions of the films?! I'm still salty.
@@kage6613 should have just pirated, wasted money really
This video moved me, in a way I didn't realize a YT video could. You have hit on the head so many ideas that have been brewing in me. I've really been feeling like I'm disconnected from something that used to be so wonderful for me, and I couldn't explain it in a bigger picture kind of way, even to myself. Thank you for putting words to a feeling I've been chasing down, and like knowing the problem, maybe this can help me reconnect with the things I loved that brought me into being a self-proclaimed cinephile to begin with. Bravo!
Hi Tom. Dankjewel om steeds opnieuw een breder perspectief aan te nemen in hoe we als maatschappij verhalen creëren, consumeren en dankzij diezelfde verhalen connecteren met elkaar. Het is oprecht inspirerend.
I remember irony poising being a thing in the 90’s, that’s why The Fellowship of the Ring, with its deeply sincere emotions, felt so fresh to me. I was expecting Sam and Frodo to say some homophobic joke about each other or Gandalf to be some goofy stoner wizard, etc. “The idea that we can no longer communicate sincerely and with vulnerability and have to turn everything into a joke instead” is a perfect way to describe it. I honestly hate that it’s so culturally prevalent. It often feels disappointing, like I was about to feel a deeper connection to characters and strong emotions and then it’s just brushed off, and the path towards catharsis is ended.
I know this is a hot take, but this was one of my biggest issues with Everything Everywhere All At Once. I really wanted to love this movie, and I certainly loved aspects of it, and it was so close to making me cry so many times but that's just the thing, isn't it? I got close, but the movie just didn't let me get there. Every time it got too emotionally "sincere" they just had to cut to a joke or a gag or something and completely took me out of the moment. Which I know the humor was a huge part of the style of the movie, but I don't know, it really bothered me.
Any emotional weight has to be stripped or made lighter, since sincere emotions will make you a target for whatever offended critic of the day wants to be upset by. If everything is a joke, nothing can be held against you, but then nothing will be remembered about you either since no value has been shown. Movies or more broadly, art with a message and a genuine passion behind it are rare because they have to be made by brave people, who are willing to explore the depths of human experience, and the current crop of writers does not have the life experience needed to undertake something like that, let alone the imagination.
@@jonruffoloI have to respectfully disagree. That movie still has sincerity underneath it’s tongue-in-cheek-ness. I’ve seen it multiple times though. I do get what you mean though.
Could it have had a different balance or like pacing between sincerity and sarcasm? Sure, but it’s climax and ending allow sincerity to fully marinate imho.
@@DrOktobermenschDid you seriously make this all about "people are so easily offended these days"? What a crybaby attitude. Movies have always been like this because corporate suits want to squeeze every possible dollar out of the public. You really think this decade is any worse than the 90s? 70s? 50s? It's the same thing, different year. Grow up and start placing the blame where it belongs.
Someone even pointed out as far back as 2014 that one of the reasons Frozen connected with audiences so much is that it was unapologetically sincere in a way that Disney hadn't been since the 90s. One of the first scenes is two little girls playing without any irony or winks to the audience and it's unashamedly sweet. Anna gets a big I Want Song about how she wants to fall in love and, even if the movie plays around with the romance plot, still allows her to want and get a boyfriend by the end. Elsa is also allowed to be vulnerable in a way that a lot of animated heroines hadn't been since arguably Mulan and get a big showstopper that undeniably marks the film as a musical. It had some self-awareness but it felt unafraid to be sweet and wholesome. By contrast, Tangled went out of its way to hide the heart in the marketing - with Rapunzel and Flynn looking all sassy on the posters and presenting it more as a Dreamworks style romp - and being the kind of film that you have to rewatch a lot to realise how great it is. Frozen felt like something we were starving for at the time
The "Making of LoTR" is honestly absolutely amazing. Aside from being incredibly detailed and explaining and showing the film-making process extensively, it included a ton of personal moments between the crew and the actors. It's genuinely very wholesome to watch, but also strengthens the connection to the characters in the movies. I was really happy to see it talked about in this video (which was fantastic by the way). Brought back memories of watching this "Making of LoTR" series with my family.
The part where it shows Elijah Wood's last day of filming always makes me tear up. Peter Jackson just doesn't want to stop asking for more takes, until he finally does and they have this long hug. So emotional.
Lord of the Rings is almost unique in that regard. It's so amazing a franchise and such a great production made by people who loved making it that even people who arent rabid fans will sit down and watch the making off with as much enthusiasm as if they were viewing a blockbuster movie.
I think some of these issues stem from a deeper problem in our society, where we have become so disconnected that we cannot face discomfort. We're afraid of vulnerability, as mentioned in the video.
We would rather chase imaginary, but attainable, achievements in a video game than chase a crazy dream that we would have to work and strive to accomplish. We don't want to be bored, so anytime our minds might be unoccupied, we plug in to the virtual for instant stimulation. We're uncomfortable with even our own thoughts, content to keep voraciously consuming, stuck in an endless cycle of mindless, easy, entertainment.
And yet...if we never try and fail, if we're never bored, if we never invest much in our relationships, then life is hollow. Failure helps us learn to do better. Boredom fosters creativity. And relationships strengthen and support us. Without experiencing the hard things in life, we may experience none of the genuinely good and wonderful things.
Perhaps that's at least partly why our young people are so riddled with crippling anxiety. They're part of an experiment that is causing them to miss out on the best parts of life.
In addition to the excellent perspective and discussion... I thoroughly enjoyed your subtle comedic timing. Going back to the original DVDs... the cut to black before the end of the sentence... classic. Thank you!
I think in terms of "The Whedonization" of TV and movies: Everyone is constantly quipping in an inappropriate yet oh so clever manner.
Whedon took what comics and 80s action movies were already doing and brought it to TV.
@@herecomesthescience Right , and now EVERYBODY does it. It's sickening and undermines the characters and the tension.
The issue with that is that even Whedon knew when to draw back (or used to know when to draw back) and let the drama fucking gutpunch you. Like - Buffy and Angel are both full of his quippiness, but they're also full of devastating moments that let themselves sit there; no-one interrupts the sequence from Jenny Calender's death on with a quip, when Angel tries to murder Wesley in his hospital bed no-one 'well that just happened's it. The problem is no-one - including latter day Whedon himself - has managed to hit the balance right, or nail down the setting and tone for both the drama and quips to work.
Haha my mind leapt to Buffy while watching this, as much as Buffy is great in its own right. I remember trying to play fantasy themed pretend games with a childhood friend who was a massive Buffy fan. I was a massive LotR fan and would play my characters very straight with lots of epic gravitas and she would play hers with wisecracks and sarcasm and it drove me nuts 😅
When he did it for Buffy in 1997, it was unique and had its own original voice. Now, it's overdone and cringe.
Fury Road is an example of a passion project that came from a franchise and refined it to its core and made it a better product. George Miller made the ultimate Mad Max movie he always wanted to do but didn't had the resources and budget to film, until the studio finaly greenlit after decade of planing.
Agreed
ah yeah. the perfect Mad Max movie. Furiosa ! also starring Max, in the role of grunting and driving.
@@Senumunu Didn't even realise there was another Mad Max movie coming out, thank you
Wasn't that movie feminist propaganda though lol
@@rawman44 No, just feminist.
I was literally trying to explain to someone how I feel like movies and shows recently have been doing this. I couldn’t come up with a word for it but you sum it up perfectly.
No emotion, just content.
WOW...just wow. I'm only 3:55 minutes in and I am so touched and blown away.
This is the first video I've seen from you, and from the thumbnail, topic, and usually the voices discussing them, I thought that the agenda of the video was going to come from a shallow voice and vocabulary, for a lack of a better term, from a juvenile nerd. Wow, I am in love your passion, vocabulary, and technique.
Thank you so much for a great and genuine video on the heart and soul of tremendous storytelling.
I feel like this is the conversation I've kept having with my friends for 5-10 years now. it's only gotten worse. thank you for addressing this, it needs to become a larger conversation.
You're a Scott Pilgrim fan?
Read David Foster Wallace, especially Infinite Jest
@@jansmitowiczauthor78 DFW predicted the future better than any sci-fi writer. Unfortunately, I live in Canada, so I hope he's at least slightly wrong
I’ve tried, and then next thing you know a blumhouse movie is on...
I too wondered if it's me, if I can no longer get invested in a movie because I became a jaded adult, my imagination dimmed down, or that now I understand too much about the world to enjoy a work of fiction the same way I used to when I was younger. And then I went to watch Puss in Boots The Last Wish in cinema. It really opened my eyes to the problem with modern media that you bring up. Despite the movie being mainly an animated adventure comedy, it had some really serious themes, expertly delivered through... SINCERE storytelling. Jokes were in there and they were hilarious, but when there was time to be serious, there was no irony to undercut it. There were scenes that were visceral, sometimes terrifying, some of them so real they sent shivers down my spine (panic attack scene anyone), but most of all, the most important emotional beats of the story were not afraid to be POIGNANT. One of the most anti-entropic sequels in history, a sequel to a spinoff of a popular already milked down to a raisin franchise no less. I really miss sincere storytelling. I have no idea when and why being serious or having an actual message became passe, but it makes the modern movie experience feel vapid, a pointless waste of time. Sure, there were movies in the past that took pathos and seriousness too far with too little substance behind it, which made them feel pretentious, but this sarcastic self-aware way of storytelling is most definetly no way to fix that problem.
yes, totally agree! I felt like this with Banshees of Inisherin, even though it was a dark comedy it felt so sincere and refreshing compared to a lot of what we see today in cinema.
I literally said the first sentence to my friends last night. I was a huge movie person. When I was making minimum wage as a server, I couldn't wait to buy a DVD of a favorite movie. Going to go see The Dark Knight in theaters was unforgettable. Now, I probably see a movie in a theater once a year. The last one was the Dune movie, which was very good, but we're in a cinema famine right now. Modern movies are incredibly boring.
@@heathertoribio5824 Oh yes, I totally agree about Dune. There are gems that happen from time to time, but it's a far cry from how I remember early 2000's for example, with every premiere being super exciting. I was also wondering if it's oversaturation - we have so many things coming out every moment that maybe we've "overeaten" entertainment, but it does feel like quantity over quality lately.
@@J31 I think part of the problem is that there's no lucrative alternative. Many people want more artistic blockbusters, and yet, because of the success of these homogenized movies of hybridized genre, many aren't given the chance to be produced, creating a vicious cycle: people watch what's available, what's available is this, big blockbusters make sizable box office success, studios green light more projects like those, more films like this become more predominant at theaters, and the cycle repeats. There's no incentive to make anything different, save if there was a massive loss in audience interest or a great disruption in the system, a la what happened in the late 1960s and 1970s w/ the New Hollywood movement.
@thecreator2073 sarcasm and self-awareness can be presented pointedly though.
It's sarcasm and self-awareness for its own sake that is the problem, and the 'entropic' version of those concepts.
21:57 "It's the difference between creating Game of Thrones, and creating a show like Game of Thrones"
I think, personally, it's the difference between creating seasons 1-4 of Game of Thrones, and creating seasons 5-8 of Game of Thrones.
Speaking of irony and the lack of sincerity in modern film: I recently saw Boys in the Boat. A good book that was a fine, serviceable movie, nothing amazing. However, what I appreciated about it was the earnestness and being unashamed of being sincere or even cheesy. It felt weirdly refreshing and optimistic and it’s kind of strange that it feels weird. It really shouldn’t.
As a Lead VFX artist who has worked on many marvel movies, I agre with the lack of passion. It is very easy to tell if a movie is made with passion VS made for corporate profits. Working on the Barbie movie this year really relit the spark in me. Everyone was having a great time and everyone's jaws dropped when they saw the barbie house sets for the first time. There was a lot of love in that movie. Before that I have just been stuck working on Disney remakes and phase 4 marvel movies, where nobody cares if it's even good at the end.
No sense of purpose or craft. Like a cog working in a cog factory..?
You lost me at Barbie bruh
@@stormcorrosion176 It might not be a good movie to me but it must have been special for people who worked on the movie and were Barbie fans.
9.9 times out of 10 movies tries to one up the previous. Make something new, bigger, shinier, add more! And 9.9 times out of 10 these movies fail or destroy their trilogy. If you have a good idea expand on why its a good idea. Dont replace it with something else. Look at the same thing from another perspective or point in time to better explain why the original was good. This adds value to the original and expands interest to the viewer.
Also keep politics or what is perceived as politics out of movies/games. They will instantly destroy all the work as people will choose sides against the production itself.
The first vs second Pacific Rim films had that clear difference. The first was made by people who really wanted to show giant machines beating on monsters, the second was just a job to make something that could make a profit.
Thinking about how just two weeks ago, my sister, father and I watched the DnD movie in our family room, and I realized that, though it doesn't occur in that movie, undercutting character developments in family targeted movies is fundamentally what makes them family targeted. People that don't like a movie will enjoy when the movie makes fun of itself, and by doing so, it becomes the movie that, for everyone who saw it, could be described as "Ok".
I think self deprecating humour is stereotypical of millennials
I think i liked the dnd movie so much is cuz even tho it's silly and goofy, the really, truly emotional moments are never undercut. There's a real element of sincerity to it. Just like an irl dnd game where among all the make-believe fighting and jokes you're helping your friend through their family trauma
@@aceman0000099 zellenials
@@megancress1384 Yeah i've never actually played dnd but really liked the movie, the self-awareness never seemed to be misplaced and also made a lot of sense because it felt authentic to something that could be said/done during an irl game. I was so ready for a mediocre marvel like movie but it just felt so well placed idk
@@coltonpetiprin9599 It's because it has mediocre marvel tier writing, next to no real world building, barely any serious moments that aren't completely compromised with witty shitty one liners and just degenerate humor.
That's my first serious (long) video i decided to see in english. Your voice and speaking is so clear. Very good to hearing.
knew this video was going to be good as soon as you touched on good storytelling as the refinement of a single idea and then building a story around that idea. its something ive stumbled upon inadvertently in my own writing (although i wouldn't call high brow, lol, its fanfiction) when i was drafting I found i could condense my story down to only once sentence, and I used that sentence as a kind of mission statement. the fic is a 100k word way of saying that once sentence
"the fic is a 100k word way of saying that once sentence"
idk but that sounds plenty highbrow to me
As someone who is attempting to write and create an action/ horror book series, I feel like videos and opinions like this are a good way to remind myself of what to avoid in my books and overarching stories.
What?
They’re good but don’t get too caught up in feeling like you have to follow everything you hear in an essay. They after all are just opinions and can be wrong.
@@mikayelalikhanyan1587how could that confuse you?
@@mikayelalikhanyan1587 I think it's mostly jealous of comic book movies success. Both Logan and taxi driver are great movies. Let's not act like thousands of bad non comic book movies don't exist.
@@thialhoinj1971we're not talking about logan. Logan was anti entropic. We're talking about doctor strange and the multiverse nonsense.
This was... a massive wake-up call for me when it came to my own worldbuilding projects. I thought I was safe because I'd been staying away from Marvel and superhero things in general, but the problems are on a cultural level that surrounds us and soaked into me subconsciously, not on a genre level that I can just stay away from.
@@thecreator2073 ew
@@thecreator2073 a list of directors that includes Greta Gerwig and Ryan Johnson must be a list of the worst directors ever.
You forgot Tommy Wiseau
One day you may create an amazing fanfic with 33 readers!
If you are selective in the content you absorb, and stop watching (generally) 2010s and onwards blockbuster and theatrical congolmerate streaming service-churned-out garbage, this subconscious issue can be avoided in your own writing.
People say it is good to watch bad writing, because we can "see what not to do", but this is fallacy. We should experience GOOD writing to see what *worked* and what *didn't* in something that has proven quality, or released to audiences that are intended to be wholly different to the kind that lusts for franchises, live action remakes, and cashcow adaptations, or... something simply widely regarded as a historic masterpiece.
what do you mean with "worldbuilding projects" ? I'm keen!
This is the most beautiful and matching sponsor ad I have ever seen 😄 Watching this was pure bliss, thank you very much. I remain with a lot thoughts
"If you look a little closer to how Amazon acquired the partial rights to Tolkien's work to make their Rings of Power series, it becomes clear the showrunners they hired are genuine fans and creators with the best of intentions."
AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one! Comedy gold right there!
I feel like passion isn't only missing in filmmaking but in many other parts of our lives too. Not so long ago, I realised that many of my friends (teenagers) felt like having to hide their passions. Idk if that's something new, but it made me frustrated as I am quite passionate about pretty much anything that I like. Singing in the choir isn't considered "cool", being in the school theater isn't "cool" etc (especially for boys), because what are you making it for? Less and less people appreciate things like that, everyone seems to feel a certain numbness towards the act of creation and all the energy put into it. We have consumed so much already at a very young age that nothing feels worth our attention anymore. And if we were to create anything, why should we take an effort? there are so many people out there that could make it better and we've seen things that we will never be able to do, so why even start, why should we try or care, if we don't take advantage out of it?
It is frustrating to see that the pure consumption of meaningless stuff that looks cool but feels empty forges us, the new generation. Sometimes I can hardly imagine, what this will lead to. Because it might only be a lack of passion today, but tomorrow it might as well develop into the lack of empathy.
I see what you're talking about and while there is absolutely plenty of that, I do also see s move back toward sincere passion as well. Lots of folks with odd hobbies or fixations and no shame about it. It's easy to get demoralized by the glib, but if you scratch under the surface of all the annoying apps you will find genuinely heartfelt people and encouraging spaces where vulnerability is welcomed. 😊
Actually, this is almost existencial horror.
yo, lack of passion leading to lack of empathy is a powerful insight. I see South Park as an example of this--it makes fun of people who care, often. Cartman began as the heel, he was the dick friend. But Cartman was seen by the audience eventually as the protaganist, as the realist, the one to be emulated. He's still a selfish dick. Most importantly, South Park rarely takes a stand FOR something. It just laughs, and it's not always clear what the joke is, so any viewer can assume South Park is on the viewer's side. It doesn't make the viewer self-reflect, or imagine a different side to the issue (which is where empathy comes in).
You're definitely right that creation feels harder. We thought the internet would allow a really good small-time creator get seen by lots of people, but so much bad content is being created and the algorithms are skewed towards the money-making stuff, or rather, towards the stuff someone with money made to make more money. I saw one of my favorite touring but low-popularity bands last night, and their message is always to try to do the things you love, which will create communities you love. The world needs new art, made from passion. Always will. Don't compare yours to others, either: "someone could make it better" doesn't matter. Make it yours.
Bro was absolutely COOKING with this one.
Bro whilst I kinda agree with you, I think that's just more of a teen thing. I just think many people aren't THAT passionate about anything. As you've said we just consume consume consume.
The fear of emotional sincerity in cinema that's been Marvelized is frustrating to me because, while people who like it maintain it's "realistic", to me it's realistic to how my friends and I talked when we were teenagers. Now that we're older and we've learned how to have serious conversations and moments without having to make a joke or forcibly divert off of the topic, it's not appealing to us in fiction. People grow up. Marvel has grown down.
Absolutely. It feels like these characters are so immature and can never work out their problems, and that feels so hollow to me.
I'm realising more and more how films are very much tied to the culture of the writers, and when you start to understand the average Hollywood writer today, films and their tropes make a lot more sense.
A millenial dork, raised on cartoons and 80s pop culture, cynical about life etc. that's why there's so many films where the 'quirky harmless dork' ends up 'getting the girl'
@@aceman0000099 +1, case solved!
This is a good point. It's like a defensive mechanism - you shield yourself from "criticism" by acting a fool intentionally, pretending it's not serious and that it doesn't really affect you that much. It's as if you've got something serious to discuss but you're afraid to get a good old "ha, that's so gay/lame/etc" so you preemptively set it up as not important.
The idea that rings of power creators are genuine fans and creators with the best of intentions really made me laugh.
I'm sure there were some people lower down who had passion, but yeah, as soon as they fired a Tolkien expert because he kept pointing out things they were doing that went against Tolkien I lost any hope it would be good
@@Q_Cooper Yeah I was cautiously optimistic about what they could do with LOTR, but when they fired their lore expert and hired an "Intimacy Coordinator" I checked out of the series entirely.
I like how you give your critique in a discussion kinda way, that conveys the "negative" points but in a respectful way without bashing anything
The Fellowship had so many "cringe" moments in it, and that is why it was so amazing. Emotional sincerity needs a comeback.
The 2nd breakfast skit is part of what makes Fellowship so endearing.
@@Novusod Yeah, but it also had a very clear purpose in the storytelling. It established the fish-out-of-water nature of the hobbits, who they were at the start of the journey, what they were sacrificing to undertake it, how little they understood their own sacrifice at that point, and how much they'd change by the end of their arcs. The comic relief itself shows the determination of light to overcome darkness in Tolkien's world, more than just giving the audience a break from the tension. It shows people deliberately choosing to embrace and create goodness in the face of great evil, which is of course the main power of the story.
Memorable quips tend to be well-implemented ones, as opposed to the eye-rolling in modern cinema. Rewatching Jurassic Park a few months back for the first time in many years, it was incredible to me how just about every shot and every line were so deeply imprinted onto my mind after all that time. Such a lost art.
You should also keep in mind, that Tolkien wrote the books before the age of Post-Modern ironic detachment, and I am fairly sure that if he had lived to experience it he would have detested it with a burning passion.
ngl that movie was lame af
@@xanidydexidyit's ok to be wrong and have bad taste. It's not for everyone!
A group of us were just talking about this today, and why we've started watching old movies and TV shows for the simple joy of storytelling. Brilliant
same with anime
I love watching old movie. Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton are extremely interesting to watch. Heck, I have discovered that I like old commercials. Especially old animated commercials.
Been watching old Studio Ghibli movies, great stories, characters and storytelling on top of great art and animation and music and voice acting.
Can also easily recommend new Godzilla movie (Japanese), great sympathetic characters and storytelling, even if one was not friend of monster movies. Movie has several layers and human stories in it are great.
I was impressed as much by what you acknowledged you didn't know or didn't fully understand as I was by your insight into what you had clearly had in hand. Humility is too rare a trait. Subscribed. I look forward to watching more of your storytelling. Thank you.
Interesting to bear these themes in mind while watching the James Bond franchise; they started as quite tight little spy capers, tending a little towards the excessive at the end, to massive overblown fantasies, and then a bit meaner and grittier later on.
RoP's biggest problem was probably the fact that, despite all of the access to so much actual canon material, they decided to make one that was semi-canon at best, and fanfiction at it's worst.
Like the market is absolutely PRIME for a Children of Hurin adaptation, and they decided to make Rings of Power. That blows my mind.
Seeing how they wrote RoP I don't want them to touch Children of Hurin at all, or any of Tolkien's work for that matter
I thought they didn't have access to a bunch of stuff? I haven't seen it but I hears they weren't even allowed to say "Hobbit."
@@maxb2244 Yea, what blew my mind was that they attempted to make a show with so little material (only the LotR Appendices, not even the Unfinished Tales or parts of the HoME. But a good Children of Hurin adaptation would be dope!
Well knowing that Prime only had rights to the appendices why criticize the creativity that filled gaps? In fact, I found the series worked hard to stay true to the later storyline. I liked it. And remember, Peter Jackson’s LOTR also revised much of the books in the movies. Tolkien isn’t easy to condense.
Children of Hurin is afaik partitically part of the Simarillon, which Amazon has not the rights for.
The idea of corporate passion vs true passion really hit home. Last year I watched Dune. I delayed watching it for a while because I expected what we’ve come to accept as the standard: showy effects, flashy cinematography and very little substance. I was extremely surprised when I watched the movie and found…quality. It captured the feeling that made me fall in love w movies in the early 2000’s and 2010’s, a feeling I’d not felt about a big name movie in almost 10 years.
Like the creator of this video, I had often wondered if I’d just grown up too much and couldn’t appreciate things the way I used to anymore, but that wasn’t it. When I watched the behind the scenes for Dune, I understood: Denis Villeneuve *loves* Dune. That book is what made him fall in love with storytelling, and he’s been working up to creating this film pretty much his whole career. Of course, that level of passion combined with his talent and experience leads to that old school Hollywood quality, and hopefully it can turn the tables and create a new trend
Dune's source material is not campy comic book stuff. to (stupidly) think that they'd (for whatever reason) move so far away from the source material that it'd somehow be Marvel-ish is completely on you.
@@xPogiifyWell, that didn't stop I, Robot, did it?
@@xPogiify hating ass fr 🙄 I think you missed the point in the video. The problem with today’s media doesn’t boil down to being based off comic books. Watch again lol
The point about PASSION struck me! How you said watching the extras of LOTR made you realize how every person involved was passionate about it. Because that explains why I think the new HALO tv show is so amazing and why I love it soooo much! As I rewatched it on Bluray, I watched all the extras.... and every behind the scenes video made me giddy with joy coz I was infected by the passion of everyone involved! From the actors, to the producers, to the game fans, even the host of the BTS show loved the game and show so much! And the detail and thought the art director and VFX supervisor put into it was so obvious.
"Franchise building is not about a shared universe; It's merely about recognizability"
Well said. As long as you call it "Marvel" and it shares enough recognizability with the originals, people will show up to consume it even as it plunges into mediocrity. Many of these films would never survive alone, but they are enough to get people reeled in, hoping that the secret ending will lead to a better result next time.
Among many other flaws such as oversaturation and self awareness, I see the issue with Marvelization as being similar to AI images. They're highly derivative and completely interchangeable. They might occupy your mind for 2 hours on a flight but they will never stick with you.
It's true. When I'm marking movies I've seen in my letterboxd account, I honestly can't remember which marvel movies I've seen and which I haven't because they're so forgettable.
There are two Marvel movies essentially, maybe three. The origin movie and the ensemble movie, and once you've seen one of each you've practically watched them all.
I love the point made about how good movies, and good franchises know that there is also a time for a good END. Its something I think lots of fans neglect. To me, a huge part of what made the Lord of the Rings trilogy so good is that each movie knew when it was time to end, and the ending of the trilogy was literally Frodo telling Sam (and by extension, the audience) that his story is over - that it's OUR TURN to live our lives and write our own stories. To go out there and make those friends that would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with us at our own Black Gate, to go out there and destroy whatever our One Ring might be, and that even if the burden is too much to bear there will always be people at our side willing to guide, willing to protect, willing to lead, and even willing to carry us through till the end.
Nowadays, stories and movies seem to never want to end, or simply disregard the quality of an ending.
Endings used to be the point of stories.
Well said.
Stories are no longer _allowed_ to end because everything is made to be a franchise, a big thing, a multi-project interconnected multiverse etc etc. And everything that wasn't made to be like that is reworked/rebooted. Because corporations are, like any good business, desire to have a product that sells, and sells _consistently_.
Thats why I loved Cyberpunk Edgerunners, the story it wanted to tell needed one season and thats all it was and its fantastic
There are some very good observations in there. I just wanted to add on the behind the scenes apsect. I was listening to the "No Time to Die" podcast and it was so good. I rewatched the movie after that and you can feel and appreciate the locations scoutet, the stunts done by real humans and the discussions about the plot. It really made the movie more special to me having the background knowledge about the production.
One time I remember watching a "Friends" episode with a commentery by the writers, and I still remember a quote from them, they were really proud that they "Treated their carachters with respect", meaning they wouldn't ever write a scene or a line that would ruin a carachter in the eyes of an audience, even when witing a dumb joke, they would always think if was something that Ross/Monica/Chandler etc. would do or not. I think this was a real reason why that sitcom had such a huge success.
Quick note about the D&D film. The POV of that film is that of a typical dungeon master (DM) trying to move their idiot players along through a story the DM is mostly making up as they go along. The D&D film is emulating the actual experience of playing D&D and it makes sense that it would include nods to pop culture, especially since D&D is a major part of pop culture itself.
I did not expect to enjoy that film as much as I did. One of my biggest pleasant surprises this year.
Yes, I loved how much that movie felt so comfortable, like the best campaigns I've had, and exciting for finally being able to see it play out like a movie. That was a movie made with a lot of love and understanding, and for that, those mini references landed as all the more real for me
I feel like it just knew when to be quippy and when to let a scene play out dramatically (better than most D&D parties, certainly...) It's not THAT difficult to walk that line, there have been action-comedies pulling it off for decades. It really does feel like the movies that fail at it are just deadly afraid to be "cheesy" or "cringe" and end up avoiding sincerity entirely.
...But they also don't commit to *actually being comedies*, so you just end up with a drama that undercuts itself and a bunch of jokes that don't tie together.
Cringe.
This Call of Cthulhu player is diagnosing you with Acute Pathological Cope.
Excellent analysis. I remember a few years ago watching the latest Jurrasic Park. "Those old dinosaurs won't keep people interested anymore", complained the park director, "we need bigger, newer, genetically engineered ones". It was so meta - they were actually talking about the cinema audience! So the monsters and special effects got bigger and more impressive, while the stories became derivative and unfulfilling. So it was that the Fast and Furious franchise ended up turning into a comedy in space, Die Hard became a cliche-ridden over-the-top action fest and Superman ended up destroying entire cities in a futile attempt to keep us all interested.
I'm all for special effects if they're justified by the storyline. But you just know when they've written the story around the effects, and it's deeply unsatisfying.
I disagree with you somewhat. Man of Steel having the catastrophic damage to Metropolis makes sense from a narrative perspective, because there is no reason why the Kryptonians would pull their punches. They're going to level all this and kill everyone anyway; why waste time and energy being surgical about it?
I just disagree to relate that with "entropy", it doesn't make sense and it feels like just want to come up with a new cool technical term...
> Superman ended up destroying entire cities in a futile attempt to keep us all interested.
That hit me hard. If you think about it from viewer-film perspective - wow, thats a lot to think about. Thanks for the random insight.
The fast & furious movies have been like that since F4, and it's a beautiful and consistent escalation if you ask me.
@@YouWillBeHappyOrElse yeah...but the final act/battle sequence was soooo overlong. I actually love MoS and BvS and JLSC, but when I watch MoS I skip 4/5ths of the Batman/Zodd punching scenes.
Extremely thorough and well-delivered concepts/analysis, thank you for this. The one point I would counter on, personally, would be on the first example you used for the Meta-References to Nowhere segment. While I agree with all the the points being made generally, I'd argue that DnD:HAT's use of meta-references is an integral part of its own story-telling. Part of what made the DnD movie a solid piece of entertainment is that it knew what it was: a cinematic adaptation of what is, at its core, collaborative story-telling. it _felt_ like it was written by a group of players coming together to have fun and be silly, complete with whatever zeitgeist influences/references and choices each individual player might bring to the table to fuel the shenanigans.
Also didn't that shot just feel like, funny because it was clearly depicting an owl bear doing violence like a human would instead of like an owl bear would? The frustration and desire to inflict MORE harm felt palpable to me and I felt the character showing through her wild shape. Rather than whipping the villain around or clawing or biting etc. zero hulk vibes
@@witchwhatwho Yes! It 100% felt like a human running high on _so much_ adrenaline. It was also a fantastic bit _because_ it's Doric, who had up until that point been portrayed as relatively even keeled when in humanoid form. And then they give us the Owl Bear form just curbstomping the Red wizard as one does some undead cockroach... That scene had so many layers of comedy to it. Chef's kiss.
This video has thoroughly convinced me of two specific truths...
1) That you or someone like you should be in the employ of one of these major Hollywood studios. Either as a director,a screenwriter,or some showrunner-like guiding hand for a project.
2) No Hollywood studio would ever do that--not without a lot of oversight,at least--because they would be able to sense that the commerce/profitability side of things would not be your priority.
“Bathos” is a literary term missing from this lovely, in-depth discussion. It is a more specific form of irony. Marvelization is frought with bathos. It is often the cause of “passion-loss” we find in our pop culture reality.
Overly Sarcastic Productions has a very entertaining piece about it. I highly recommend a watch.
Marvelized movies feel to me like movies designed for groups of people to watch casually and talk over the film the whole time. If you watch movies like this alone you find how empty they really are.
You just taught me a new word. And that word is the PERFECT word to describe what Marvel keeps doing.
@@YouCanCallMeReTroor to watch while on your phone.
people who watch that shitty channel are the very reason why marvelization is a thing.
Guardians 3 took me right out of it so many times because of this. It’s like most scenes were parodies of themselves and my suspension of disbelief would immediately evaporate.
Some of the points you made reminded me why I love the new Dune so much: It actually tells a serious story while taking itself seriously - while also being a blockbuster. That used to be the norm 15 years ago, but is pretty abnormal nowadays. When characters in that movie (and most likely the sequel aswell) show their feelings, they don't comment on how "cringe" that is and when they're in mortal danger, they don't react to that with a "they fly now ?"-quip.
It occurs to me that ironic detachment is the ultimate low-stakes bet.
Low-commitment, low reward, but stable.
Depressed people do it, depressed cultures do it, now our uninspired studios do it.
First bad content creators sought to be merely relatable,
then the audience grew detached and non-committal in the face of a content surplus,
now the level at which the bad content creator seeks to 'relate' is TO that lack of commitment.
They don't care because we don't care.
Dune is by far the worse blockbuster movie I've seen in recent years. You just have a shit culture and taste
@@thomaskilroy3199 depressed cultures? you dont have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to mental illnesses.
Hey, thanks for the video.
I also think that what makes a lot of these movies blur together, is not just that they are thematically similar, but also structurally.
There was this neat joke about guessing a Seth Rogen movie. The clues where "they are friends who get together and have some fun, but then something happens and the friendship breaks up, but then they get back together by the end".
It's the same structure in a lot of his movies.
Similarly, after the first Avenger, every movie in the MCU seems to have the same dramatic arc.
The point is that, despite all the different characters and the references, you're pretty much going on the same emotional rollercoaster ride every movie. So much so that nothing can surprise you, because you already expect the "bummer" scene they need, so the ending can be all the more triumphant.
Honestly got some tears in my eyes towards the end. The poison of irony that is soaking into the culture has been giving this odd floating/unreal quality to everything that, combined with world events, has made life really depressing lately. This is why we need real art more than ever - it lights the way in the dark, it is the canary in the coal mine. When all else fails, we can find ourselves again in beauty. We need great books, great films, great music, great paintings, great art, period, to remind us of, as you said, what was and can be again.
'The poison of irony' was a phrase I'd never heard till now and I love it. I'm so tired of snark. It's cowardice. Be vulnerable. Tell the truth. Love pretty things, even if someone scoffs.
What a beautiful comment.
Thanks for that comment. 1000% agree.
He should have included the counter examples of the spider verse movies to show the modern audiences are craving sincerity. Everything Everywhere is another great example of meta awareness but without cynical irony. Unfortunately I think the pendulum will swing the other way and studios will start cramming in cookie cutter sentimentality in every other scene.
To quote Dostoevsky, "Beauty will save the world"
I have this thing when I rewatch LotR movies every two years, extended versions of course. And before every rewatch I'm thinking to myself: "Nah, I have seen it so many times, there's no way I will be still entertained or that I will cry just like I did the last time." And every single time I cry even more and am invested even more. After every single rewatch I love those movies more and more. My last rewatch was just two weeks ago and I haven't stopped thinking about those movies since. It's a cinematic masterpiece that I doubt anyone will ever top. The love for the books is felt in every single scene it's just incredible. I'm a wannabe filmmaker, fresh out of film school and I had to watch many movies from all over the world and from all time periods including silent films and I love them and appreciate them all, realizing how fucking difficult it is to make a GOOD movie, let alone a great one. But every time I come back to LotR I say to myself: "dude, if I could ever film something at least half as good as LotR movies I would be happy with my career."
That's such a relatable experience. I think you could do something great.
I've rewatched the series just two weeks ago as well! :D It had been some time since the last time and I still was able to accurately remember dialogue or insignificant information about certain scenes (like behind-the-scenes trivia or certain colours and shapes of objects) and I knew with almost 100% accuracy what scene would follow the current one.
And yet, I still laughed, I still got teary eyes, I was still glued to the screen and I (as always) got the overwhelming need to read the books again and listen to the soundtrack for three days in a row. But I also re-remembered certain quibs or noticed things in the background of scenes that I somehow never noticed before (and I was quick to point them out to my poor fiancé who had to listen to me rave about the movies...) and my love for the series grew even more.
I don't think any movie or series in the last 10-15 years invoked this huge of a reaction in me (even if some came really close) and for me at least, the trend rather goes down than upwards...
Maybe not the extended editions (it does not enhance the movies), but these movies are great and will always be great.
Me and my bf do it every Christmas. It's beautiful
It's been a few years for me. I think it's time to go back to Middle Earth!
Another thing that I think has helped in the dilution of the souls of movies: technology. In the past, most movies were character-driven conflicts that had to make the audience identify and care about the people on screen. Nowadays, if you have some really cool special effects and epic music, it's possible to make action movies that don't have any depth to them.
Of course, I know my own tastes and preferences play into this opinion, but it's a thought that's been floating around in my mind recently that I thought fit with this topic. Excellent video!
Can't even start to tell you how much I can relate to your entire thesis. Thank you for this!
You make a great point on the role of data and analytics in driving movie and TV production these days. When seminal films like Lord of the Rings were made, studios took a leap of faith on the creative vision of the filmmakers. Now everything feels so calculated, formulaic and risk-averse.
Our viewing preferences are constantly tracked and analyzed in real-time, allowing studios to segment audiences into neat personas and target them precisely. There's no longer a need to passionately pitch an original idea and inspire confidence in the studio - the data makes the decisions. Trends and predictive models dictate what gets made, leading to derivative, check-list style filmmaking designed to maximize profit.
In their quest to eliminate risk, studios rely on data to shape stories into inoffensive, easily-consumable products with mass appeal. But this data-driven approach kills creativity. It flattens everything into a bland, homogeneous mush. Even when studios try to emulate the success of maverick directors like Tarantino, the copycat films lack authenticity.
What we lose is the spark of imagination, the willingness to push boundaries and take the audience on a journey to somewhere unexpected. Movies become products on an assembly line rather than artistic expressions. Data provides useful insights, but over-reliance on analytics squeezes the life out of creativity. The human touch gets lost. In the pursuit of minimizing risk, we lose the ability to inspire wonder and awe.
Also, a problem with rote use of statistics, at a deep level, is that it will rarely subvert its own starting categories.
If a studio has a misbegotten and flat sense of what the possible or real genres are, it's already too late.
The analysis is corrupted from the jump.
Every point on their graph, no matter how much of an outlier, can still be read as e.g. 'half action movie, half sci-fi'.
So they can just read the success of a unique film as merely the success of a blend of two basic genres, and so emulate it with that overly simple and misleading analysis.
They'll never receive statistical reasons to complicated the model of all they're looking for is hit rates inside made up zones.
It's like astrology at the box office.
TV was always like this, given the Nielsen ratings and the ability to cancel or retool after a season. And even in in movies' creative process, studios/producers have also long interfered, especially at edit time. Analytics just make the interference more mechanical and start sooner.
The other newish factor is appealing to a global audience. Not only can you not offend the PRC, but their audience has to get the jokes, too. I think the studios even underestimate the Chinese audience, as they were surprised by Barbie's success.
This is a good point. A good piece of art is not just entertaining, it is inspiring and persuasive - taking people out of their comfort zone and challenging their previously-held beliefs.
Yes this. Movies are an artform. Art is not calculated and formulaic, its expressive and sincere. Like the video said, production companies only see movies as content and nothing more.
Very well said, I agree. I don't think anybody wants to take real risks in film making any more
It used to be that in big studio movies, you could find scenes that just felt so off, they were reeking of a studio note.
Now you have entire movies that feel like just one bis studio note, start to finish.
What a great way to explain this. This is SUPER postmodern at its core. Both the problem and the attempt to acknowledge said problem. Especially entropy, it is such an odd way to think about the constant drag and growth of disorder. Something becomes successful and with that, there is more need to be more. Yet, that "more" we've seen in sequels is entropic. It does the exact opposite of what we desire, well fleshed out, rich, and enlightening stories.
Thank you for putting words and concepts on what makes the franchise/spinoff/sequel world so exhausting over time.