Ceave, you are a genius, but I think that there's actually one more element to hiding the ultimate balloon. Confusion. If you can psyche out your opponent by using the direction against them, by running in one diresction for coins and then a different one for hiding, then that will make the coin path harder to discover. For instance, in your wooded kingdom one, the coin coffer is in the path of your balloon. This makes it easy to discover. However, your seaside kingdom one has a more branching and not obvious path, which is why that is a better hiding place.
The time function is linear. Specifically, one possible function which matches it perfectly is y=floor((17/14)floor(x)+3), which is just y=(17/14)x+3 where everything after the decimal points is discarded.
@@memetech- It has to do with that (17/4) is 4.25, which doesn’t make a difference until you get to 4, where floor(4.25*4) is not the same as floor(4*4) where they are equal to 17 and 16 respectively. The 17/4 one grows larger than the 4 one by 1 second every 4 seconds. So for 0, 1, 2 and 3 seconds, there is no difference but for higher times it make a much bigger difference.
The reason it's rigged in the finder's favor is that they have to find a specific spot. Of COURSE that takes longer than just finding *a* spot. Sure, there's retrying, but that costs coins and kills your streak.
I actually love the balloons where the username is Mario and the profile picture is Luigi, and the balloon is just like 8m away and you can casually walk there. Those really helped me when I was farming coins for all the outfits, there's something sympathetic about those :)
I think that it’s good that the attacker gets more time. This way, it requires more skill to hide it, and it’s possible to pop the best of the best without being exact
The reason that the attacker gets extra time is so that insane players like helixsnake can’t hide extremely hard balloons that require reacreating the hiders movements frame by frame.
Huh. I DO feel especially ten seconds or fifteen seconds as long as we didn't pick up five coins because then there are actually nine seconds today. Guess I'd better subscribe...
Well with 31 points you can just do polynomial interpolation lol. The result is an ungodly hilarious order-31 polynomial but it's still a formula regardless
@@parzy_osu in polynomial interpolation you are trying to find a single polynomial that has all the input points and interpolates inbetween these points. the more input points you have, the higher the order of this polynomial may get in the end. Valerian was suggesting that the resulting polynomial has order 31, i.e. the hightest exponent is 31. therefore you could potentially have 32 terms in your polynomial, which is a huge formular like ax^31 + bx^30 + cx^29 + ... + yx + z.
Nope, the only way he could have done it was with another switch... he used game rooms for the balloons so the makers account needs to be active in the room at the same time as the other account... you cannot have two different accounts BOTH on the same game at once!!!!!
4:28 Here’s a formula, where _t_ is the hiding time: *(17/14) · t + 3* Then round down to get the result. (The category 30+ is calculated as 31.) This is an approximation and highly likely not the way this has been implemented in the game. But it works!
y=1.2133x+2.5746 y is finding time x is hiding time Round up or down according to the nearest integer. (0.4 rounds down, 0.5 rounds up). Or more exactly: y=x+3 for 0
Took you rather long to notice that the attacker gets more time. I mean, how would you get 40 seconds otherwise? As for the advantage's existence: It's necessary for the whole mode to work. The hider already knows where to go, so if both had the same time, many players would just use speed run techniques to run away instead of really hiding the balloon. The finder are in a disadvantage by default, so they have to have some advantage.
Theres an even simpler formula to approximate the time. Its (the time taken to hide*1.2)+3 rounded (x*1.2)+3 (5*1.2)+3=9 (10*1.2)+3=15 (15*1.2)+3=21 (20*1.2)+3=27 (25*1.2)+3=33 (30*1.2)+3=39 There so rounding rules going on to make imperfect on numbers that aren't a multiple of 5 Likely the scaling factor is some %between 20%and 25%, but 20% is very very close.
Someone else probably figured it out a long time ago, but the formula for the attack timer seems to be: t_a(t_h) =3+t_h+floor(t_h/4.65) where t_h is the time you spend hiding a balloon and t_a is the time the attacker gets. The value needs to be around 4.65 but it could change a bit in either direction without changing the result.
I like that when I was playing with my 8 year old niece she managed to figure out that seekers had more time than finders - "How come you get 40 seconds to find that balloon when the most you can use to hide it is 30 seconds?"
You completely forgot to mention the amount of time it takes for the balloon arrow to disappear. The most ideal hiding spot is always going to be as far away as possible because then the pointer telling the player what direction the balloon is in will disappear before they're close enough to actually see it.
The formula is A=H+3+[H/5]+[H/14]-[H/15] Where A is attack time, H is hide time, and [x] is the greatest integer less than or equal to x. For example if H is 16 you have 16+3+3+1-1 so A is 22
thanks! this explains into what seemed like an impossible balloon in the sand kingdom, where I had to go to the posion with invisible platforms in 12 seconds.
I haven't played any recent 2d Marios including Maker, but REALLY enjoy this channel. I recently got and played Odyssey, so was very excited to see you had made a playlist for it. Thanks for sorting out some vids for me to binge today
Dear Ceave, the formula is almost linear (up to rounding error), so the relationship between hide and seek time is S = 2.585 + 1.212*H (rounded to the nearest integer).
Since you get big coin bonuses for rallying, they clearly wanted attackers to be able to get balloons successfully on the regular. There really needed to be a decent chance at being able to reach balloons on the first attempt.
The best hiding spot is using a coin route to disguise it as a glitch balloon. If you can do this well not only would it be legit but it would literally drive people mad. Sounds like the perfect spot.
I did the math. The true formula for the graph at 4:00 is y = 17/14x + 3 Where x is the time the hider takes to hide the balloon minus the coin time, and y is the time the seeker is given to find the balloon rounded down.
you can use y = 3 + floor(1.215*x) here's a python code so that you can copy it and not have to calculate yourself: for a in range(31): print(str(a) + ' - ' + str(3+int(a*1.215)))
I had a feeling that the optimal balloon is like a speedrun type balloon. It would mean they have no time to look so they'd basically have to guess a direction and lose most of the time.
Hi! I really liked this video. I'm a game designer (not on Super Mario Odyssey obviously), and I think I can shed some light on some points, from a professional standpoint. First, for the "You picked a really good hiding spot", I didn't even notice it to be fair. To me this was a generic fake praise you get in pretty much all games that give you feedback on something subjective (at least from a computer's point of view). The same goes when a character asking for your name in an RPG replies "Hmm, that's a/n weird/good/interesting name." Because it is impossible to assess the quality of a name. And as you probably noticed, it is very hard to assess the objective quality of a hiding spot for a player, let alone for the game's code. • Time is a good indicator, but it doesn't really work in practice, because you can be slow or wait for 30 full seconds to hide a balloon, which may eventually be in plain sight at the end of a straight path. • Line of sight is not a good indicator either, because you can hide something easily from Luigi's position. Conversely, you can have direct line of sight to the balloon from the starting position, but have to do real tricky moves to access it. If the game were to assess the quality on that criterion alone, many tough balloons would be assessed as obvious, and vice versa. The number of obstacles between the balloon's final position and Luigi could be used to refine the assessment, but even then, it could be easily jammed by visible, but tricky balloons. • Distance is a bit similar to line of sight; a huge distance doesn't mean the balloon is actually well hidden. So yeah, the "Hey you picked a really good hiding spot" line basically means "Hey player I have no idea what you just did but I'll be polite and enthusiastic anyway". Now, for the extended time granted to the attacker... I can't even think how you can possibly be mad at this. The balloon's hider already has the upper hand: • They know where the balloon is or will be (duh). The attacker doesn't know exactly where the balloon will be, especially if it is hidden far from the starting spot. It is only fair that they get some extra seconds to adjust their path once in the vicinity. This is called "tolerance". • They get an unlimited number of FREE tries to hide the balloon, which means that, when they decide to place it, it is at the end of their (arguably) best run. The attacker can therefore try crazy moves and frame-perfect combinations, if they fail at any point in the sequence, they can simply try again. On the other hand, the attacker has to pay for every single try (although they do get a discount after the first try), and the slightest mistake in a series of tricky move amounts to failing the run entirely. So, to even the odds, some extra time is the bare minimum. I can't possibly imagine a world where sane developers would refrain from adding this kind of balancing mechanic :)
From a design perspective you could raycast out from multiple angles and the more colliding objects found the higher the praise text. Or in other words it's better hidden because it has lower visibility. Conversely you could measure the number of inputs used by the time taken and distance to get a mathematical idea of the difficulty. Combine the difficulty with the visibility and you'd have a hard to game system for praising good hiding spots.
Before I watched this video I thought it was going to be another "just be creative in your hiding spots" videos. I WAS WRONG. Good stuff with the coin info!!!
Please don't tell me you actually bought a switch just for the sake of an experiment in this video. Your bank account must be crying! ... also if you don't need it I can take that extra Switch off our hands? ;)
Okay. You want an absolutely awesome hiding spot to hide a balloon? Use a flying cheat, and go up and to the right as high as you can and look for any random invisible floors that could be lurking and place it there.
The formula i found is as following (x=hide time rounded to full seconds. Y =attack time) Y= x+3+0.215x ROUNDED DOWN. The rounded down is really important. 30+ is treated as 31 btw.
Allright, the 0.2x is probably higher than 0.2 but lower than 0.225, i don't think it's a quadratic formula because it stays with 1 extra asec per 5 hsecs fromon 14
f(x) = 0.2x+3 (Domain is 0-30 and Range is all whole numbers) works as a function for this chart. Pretty much, from 0 to 4, the seeker time increases by 3 seconds, and then every multiple of 5 the increased amount of time increases by 5.
I quickly copied your table into excel and it seems to me the mathematical Formula is: *AT(HT) = 1,22*HT+2,5* AT=Attack Time HT= Hide Time Due to the Timer only displaying whole Numbers we need to round off to the nearest integer (For Example: HT=0 1,22*0+2,5=2,5 rounded 3 HT=20 1,22*20+2,5=26,8 rounded 27.) It basically is just a standard linear progression.
Or you just find a really difficult jump that is nearly impossible to do first try, or 2nd etc. try for that matter. Like that one in lake kingdom. If getting to the balloon itself is so difficult, then it doesn't matter wether you know where it is or not. Or place a balloon where the only way to get to it is very far away from where the actual arrow points. Like the electric pylon one in bowser's kingdom, where the endpoint of the pylon is forward, but if you go forward you'll be met with a cage that won't let you in. In order to get in you have to actually go very far left, meaning players will struggle to realise that you have to go there to get in. Also, the timer is rigged so that the seekers get about 1/3 more time to find it, which is fair since they don't know exactly where it is, only the rough location. So scouting around for it is worth that time. What you said about small optimisations not working because of this is true, but if you get an optimised route that is so optimised that even with this extra time (and without coin seconds) the player has to take your optimised version to reach it in time, then they may really struggle to work out what the optimised version of it actually is, meaning they won't be able to find the balloon (if your optimisation is very obscure). That is how nintendo designed it, so there are many ways to hide the best balloon. The best balloons overall are the ones that take maximum advantage of all of these strategies and I think the way nintendo designed it was intelligent and insightful. I disagree with your stance on the extra seconds therefore.
Oh yeah...true. But since 30+ HT results to 40 AT... If i get some coins before getting to where I want to go and finsishes with 40 used seconds in HT, then that means the attacker has 40 seconds to find it too. So basically if you want the AT to be equal to the HT, you have to collect 20 coins and use the time they gave you. Thanks for reminding me that Vatra
Roughly: HIDE TIME = [ (6/5) * ATTACK TIME + 3] Results are heavily rounded up or down at seemingly random, probably to achieve a 1 to 1 table relation between both variables.
A good option for this game would be to set up your own time limit for other players. For example, choosing the shortest time limit before you place your balloon and being successful at it would give you more coins. Idk about this idea i just thought of it and thought it would be good.
Martti It's easy. If you go to metro, there' a super easy jump that EVERYBODY always uses. I've gotten huge streaks from that one island. Just look for a 170m balloon to the west in NDC.
The function appears to be very very strongly linear, just with a fractional slope and y intercept. It probably is perfectly linear but then the game rounds, making it seem not linear at first blush. It should be (Attack Time) = 1.2133(Hide Time) + 2.5746, where the values are rounded. Even with the rounded values, the function I showed has an r value of .9996 (r is how linear it is. 0 = not linear at all 1 = perfectly linear with positive relationship -1 = perfectly linear with negative relationship) and an r^2 value of .9993 (r^2 is what percent of the variation in y (change in attack time) can be explained by the variation of x (change in hide time). So, 99.93% of the linear change in attack time can be explained by the change in hide time.
In short, the most likely equation nintendo used in their code for calculating the seek time is something like: s = min(max(0, 30 - h) * 17 / 14 + 3, 40) where 'h' is the lowest hide time that was left on the timer (as an stored int value) and 's' is the seek time. In length, plugging in the data from the table into a graph, the equation seems to be linear. Summing up comments below in addition with personal testing, for this set of data, the graph y = min(floor(x * 17 / 14) + 3, 40) is the most logical answer, where x is the hide time and y is the seek time. Integer values in code cannot hold decimal values, so since x is very likely an integer value in code, dividing it by any number does not include the decimal, and since x is never negative, the floor function is practically useless; this renders y = min(x * 17 / 14 + 3, 40) as the most logical answer. This is the answer in many comments. In UltraLuigi's comment, x+x/4.65+3 simplifies about to 1.215x+3, which is about 17/14x+3; however, 17/14x+3 is much easier to write than x+x/4.65+3. The max(0, 30 - h) is also used to calculate the hide time used based on the time in the timer with a minimum of 0. Combining this together we get the function above in short. I just realized this is a 6 month old video… lol
Hey ceave, you gotta try community posts! You can use them for tips and tricks screenshots, mario maker magic tricks, and everything you don’t need to make a full video for!
I'm kinda sad the only way to hide good balloons is through coins because there aren't that many coins to find in each area... I mean there are, but routing a paths so that you always run on coin time leaves little to no options.
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With all due respect obviously the attacker gets more time. If they didn’t sure they could get to the balloon and throw crappy into it faster, but they wouldn’t have any time to actually find it
"the only reasonable ways was to buy a second switch w/ mario odyssey" ;0; lol or just have a friend who has it and find how long it took 4 them 2 hide it
I think it gives the seeker's more time because not everyone can do complicated Cappy throws and jumps off walls and stuff like that. I just got the game and I'm not great with jumps and I might search up how to do cool complex jumps with cappy sometime. But you seem great at making Cappy jumps
this "formula" for attack time would be much simpler to describe in code. from 0-4s, +3 to attack. for 5-9, +4. for 10-14, +5. for 15-18, +6. for 19-23, +7. for 24-27, +8. for 28-30, +9. for >30 +10. id guess these numbers were just chosen arbitrarily in intervals of 5, then tweaked as the gameplay was tested for the longer times.
You can clip through almost every surface with the gliding lizard :/ It's only a matter of time until 90% of all the balloons in the game can only be reached by using this glitch...
The reason Nintendo rigged the game in the attacker's favor is so the attacker wouldn't have to find the balloon using the exact same inputs and exact same times as the defender.
I know it’s probably been said already but I want to comment for my own personal benefit Ta = Th + 3 + floor(Th/5) Where Ta is time to attack and Th is time to hide Although, they probably just used integer division instead of the floor function
It seems like it starts with hiding time +3 and then adds an extra second every 5 hiding seconds. So... AT = (HT + 3) + (HT × 0.2). Then rounding down. AT being Attack Time and HT being Hiding Time.
Could you not gave just played a new file under a new user? It would take significantly longer to switch back and forth (no pun intended) but would save $360
It's 480 dollars Canadian for the Switch + game because the Canadian dollar is currently trash. $400 for the Switch and $80 for the game. And that's _before_ taxes. And assumes that you don't wanna buy an actual warranty for your Switch, such as the 1-year warranty offered by EB Games for $50. With that plus taxes, the total cost works out to $593.58.
He can'd do that because only one account per switch can be linked to a Nintendo.com account, and when you unlink your account from your Nintendo.com account the Balloon he placed would disappear.
(here's an image of the graphing that I did that will be a good reference point: imgur.com/a/xFFtv5E) The thing is, y = 1.21505x+3, a function a few of other people are using, gives 15.15 for x = 10 but y = 1.2x+3 gives 15.0 for x = 10. Similarly, both x = 0 and x = 5 are correct for y = 1.2x+3. So we know that y = 1.21505x+3 isn't 100% correct. Indeed, every x value from 0 to 14 (the first "phase") aligns with y = 1.2x + 3, as long as you round down even past half a second. The rounding down past half a second is an odd choice, but it makes sense if you think about it (I'm finding it hard to put into words why exactly it does make sense currently, though). Then, once it gets past x = 14 and into the second phase, I found by doing a linear regression on Graphmatica of the first data point (the only data points of the phase that aren't rounded down) of each of the three sections in this phase (look at the pink dots on the image at the start for what I mean by this), and it told me that the linear function happened to be a nice, clean, y = 1.2x + 3.2. The cleanliness of this function makes me think that they would have went with this. This function stays until x = 28 the last phase, when it changes one more time, to y = 1.2x + 3.4. After this phase i.e. at x = 30, y stays at a flat 40 seconds, at least according to the data in the table. So, Nintendo must have jumped from one neat linear function to the next, all while rounding down. If you calculate the rounded-down y-values based on the line the point is on, it'll always be accurate, e.g. for x = 17, the value is two thingies below y = 1.2x + 3, so the function you use is y = 1.2x + 2.6. 1.2*17 + 2.6 = 23 seconds, which is accurate with the table you show in the video.
@@sauceman6457 Damn, that's weird. I've never even seen a blank white screen for an imgur link error. You can probably plot the functions i list in the comment, but I'll look for a working link
I hid a really neat balloon in Bowser’s Kingdom. I had to jump off the starting point like in this video, but then long jump off the curve on the roof, use a double-Cappy dive, hit the ledge above the pokios while in a roll, accelerate once, get past where the pokios are without running into them, roll to the spark pylon while timing boosts to maximize acceleration, zip to the crazy cap island, dive, roll, and long jump as soon as I exited the spark pylon, do a double Cappy dive onto the roof, roll into the small space, and place the balloon. I got there with 1 second left on the timer. Any number of things could force the attacker to waste their mercy lead, such as landing near the pond instead of on the ledge, spamming Y while rolling instead of pressing it rhythmically, taking damage from a particularly nastily-placed pokio, or using a regular jump instead of a long jump and breaking their roll. And after all that, if they fail to line up the final roll and bonk the side of the narrow bit, it’s all over. I’d say it’s a challenge even with the mercy lead. I expect it to be popped but I will be very impressed if there are less than 10 total attempts. It took me half an hour to hide it.
It looks like there are a series of break points, where the time allowed increases by a second more. Starting with +3 seconds, and ending with +9. Looking at this chart, to me it looks like the break points are after 4, 9, 13, 18, 23, and 27 seconds. Which look hard coded rather than a regular pattern, but I think the break points are the only hard coding you need.
![Super Mario Odyssey - FASTEST WAY to 9999 COINS! [TUTORIAL]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6WFNlsj3h3M/mqdefault.jpg)
I love how casually you go "oh I bought another switch"
*cries in mr beast*
UA-cam makes him a lot of money i guess
He should’ve just made another account on his first switch
He didn't say he bought one, he said "I got myself another Switch with Odyssey"
@@vurpo7080 ye thats what buying means
3:45 he is a suporting and loving brother.
Ceave, you are a genius, but I think that there's actually one more element to hiding the ultimate balloon.
Confusion. If you can psyche out your opponent by using the direction against them, by running in one diresction for coins and then a different one for hiding, then that will make the coin path harder to discover.
For instance, in your wooded kingdom one, the coin coffer is in the path of your balloon. This makes it easy to discover. However, your seaside kingdom one has a more branching and not obvious path, which is why that is a better hiding place.
Penzhi nom the best way is to discover an oob glitch and tell no one
Make him top comment.
Moomoo Plopadom
If you use an OOB glitch then you deserve to have your Switch broken in two.
+Eddiemate
No one deserves that.
Axodus
The people who use OOB for balloons in balloon world do.
The time function is linear. Specifically, one possible function which matches it perfectly is y=floor((17/14)floor(x)+3), which is just y=(17/14)x+3 where everything after the decimal points is discarded.
I know everything you’re saying
Why 17/4? Why not just 4? (Floored since you’re doing that anyway
@@memetech- It has to do with that (17/4) is 4.25, which doesn’t make a difference until you get to 4, where floor(4.25*4) is not the same as floor(4*4) where they are equal to 17 and 16 respectively. The 17/4 one grows larger than the 4 one by 1 second every 4 seconds. So for 0, 1, 2 and 3 seconds, there is no difference but for higher times it make a much bigger difference.
@@cosmicvoidtree than say 4.25 instead of 17/14
@@memetech- Some people (including myself) prefer fractions rather than decimals
‘This game mode released a couple days ago’
‘This idea has been haunting me forever, can you hide a perfect balloon?’
Logic right there
That Wooded Kingdom balloon is really clever.
MayroSMM hello
+Sackbot20 ur a dum Roblox plsyer
That Blasted Flyfish I haven't played ROBLOX for a wile lol.
MayroSMM hi
MayroSMM TOWA
The reason it's rigged in the finder's favor is that they have to find a specific spot. Of COURSE that takes longer than just finding *a* spot. Sure, there's retrying, but that costs coins and kills your streak.
I actually love the balloons where the username is Mario and the profile picture is Luigi, and the balloon is just like 8m away and you can casually walk there. Those really helped me when I was farming coins for all the outfits, there's something sympathetic about those :)
I think that it’s good that the attacker gets more time. This way, it requires more skill to hide it, and it’s possible to pop the best of the best without being exact
Agreed. And I know ballon world isn't exactly casual but its nice that its accessible
The reason that the attacker gets extra time is so that insane players like helixsnake can’t hide extremely hard balloons that require reacreating the hiders movements frame by frame.
Huh. I DO feel especially ten seconds or fifteen seconds as long as we didn't pick up five coins because then there are actually nine seconds today.
Guess I'd better subscribe...
wut
Ceave's got dedication :)
PSYCROW!!!
Yep.
Yep
4:40 The function is (not uniquely):
ATTACK = 3 + floor(HIDE * 1.215)
Well with 31 points you can just do polynomial interpolation lol. The result is an ungodly hilarious order-31 polynomial but it's still a formula regardless
@@valerianmp In english please
@@parzy_osu in polynomial interpolation you are trying to find a single polynomial that has all the input points and interpolates inbetween these points. the more input points you have, the higher the order of this polynomial may get in the end. Valerian was suggesting that the resulting polynomial has order 31, i.e. the hightest exponent is 31. therefore you could potentially have 32 terms in your polynomial, which is a huge formular like ax^31 + bx^30 + cx^29 + ... + yx + z.
It can just be 1.2
But you only needed another account, not another switch
Tzan Tzan Thigue Hanue ‘d Mharqes Don't tell him that
It was easier that way tho
Lmao
Nope, the only way he could have done it was with another switch... he used game rooms for the balloons so the makers account needs to be active in the room at the same time as the other account... you cannot have two different accounts BOTH on the same game at once!!!!!
true but he too dank for another account
I feel especially 5 seconds is now 9 seconds but coin time prevents this so its 7 seconds today, thank you.
4:28 Here’s a formula, where _t_ is the hiding time:
*(17/14) · t + 3*
Then round down to get the result. (The category 30+ is calculated as 31.) This is an approximation and highly likely not the way this has been implemented in the game. But it works!
Hooray count: 0
Total so far: 142.5
lmao it's gotta be higher than that
Bro it’s at 709
Greg Just Greg Lol
No hooray :(
@@therainbowknight HOOOORAY
y=1.2133x+2.5746
y is finding time
x is hiding time
Round up or down according to the nearest integer. (0.4 rounds down, 0.5 rounds up).
Or more exactly:
y=x+3 for 0
MATH! AAAHHH!
What type of cookies does this recipe make?
MY BRAIN HURTS
Eduardo Javier Zaldivar Tiscareño woohoo!
Thanks! I recently found an IMPOSSIBLE coin route, that is only achieved through a perfect coin route and a 1st try clip. No ID I don’t want it popped
Took you rather long to notice that the attacker gets more time. I mean, how would you get 40 seconds otherwise? As for the advantage's existence: It's necessary for the whole mode to work. The hider already knows where to go, so if both had the same time, many players would just use speed run techniques to run away instead of really hiding the balloon. The finder are in a disadvantage by default, so they have to have some advantage.
3:48 I FIGURED THAT OUT TOO!!! XD
so did i
Do u no da way
you know i had to do it to em
Lol. NO WAY !
How did you manage to fill up 8 and a half minutes when it only took you 10 seconds to answer the question,
AND STILL HAVE ME INTERESTED????
He just got a lot of coins, which means he could use a lot of time while only leaving you with a bit
Ceave: this makes placing really challenging balloons almost impossible!
Nintendo: Our work is done!
2:09 you know, this "swing pole thingy" is in the Capture List, which means it has an official name :P
I completly forgot about the list! I just checked it. It's called a pole. ;D
Wow. A rare ceave comment!
I think the video now got demonetized *.*
wariolandgoldpiramid h.l
I see you everywhere, warioland.
Theres an even simpler formula to approximate the time. Its (the time taken to hide*1.2)+3 rounded
(x*1.2)+3
(5*1.2)+3=9
(10*1.2)+3=15
(15*1.2)+3=21
(20*1.2)+3=27
(25*1.2)+3=33
(30*1.2)+3=39
There so rounding rules going on to make imperfect on numbers that aren't a multiple of 5
Likely the scaling factor is some %between 20%and 25%, but 20% is very very close.
Noice
Someone else probably figured it out a long time ago, but the formula for the attack timer seems to be:
t_a(t_h) =3+t_h+floor(t_h/4.65)
where t_h is the time you spend hiding a balloon and t_a is the time the attacker gets. The value needs to be around 4.65 but it could change a bit in either direction without changing the result.
thank you so much for making that time table! I've been trying to figure this out for a few days but didn't really have an easy way to test it
I've been watching hundreds of Mario Odyssey videos for the past four months, only just remembered that I don't have a Switch
I like that when I was playing with my 8 year old niece she managed to figure out that seekers had more time than finders - "How come you get 40 seconds to find that balloon when the most you can use to hide it is 30 seconds?"
You completely forgot to mention the amount of time it takes for the balloon arrow to disappear. The most ideal hiding spot is always going to be as far away as possible because then the pointer telling the player what direction the balloon is in will disappear before they're close enough to actually see it.
The formula is A=H+3+[H/5]+[H/14]-[H/15] Where A is attack time, H is hide time, and [x] is the greatest integer less than or equal to x. For example if H is 16 you have 16+3+3+1-1 so A is 22
"the route is really hart to figu ROUTE!!"
Not in British English anyway.
Theo Whatmore thank you, you made my day
Theo Whatmore Go. Away. Now. Please.
Knuckles the Echidna still works if they have a canadian accent
thanks! this explains into what seemed like an impossible balloon in the sand kingdom, where I had to go to the posion with invisible platforms in 12 seconds.
Me before video: *reads title*
Also me: “in the wall”
I haven't played any recent 2d Marios including Maker, but REALLY enjoy this channel. I recently got and played Odyssey, so was very excited to see you had made a playlist for it. Thanks for sorting out some vids for me to binge today
Dear Ceave, the formula is almost linear (up to rounding error), so the relationship between hide and seek time is
S = 2.585 + 1.212*H
(rounded to the nearest integer).
Since you get big coin bonuses for rallying, they clearly wanted attackers to be able to get balloons successfully on the regular. There really needed to be a decent chance at being able to reach balloons on the first attempt.
Time is money...
Makoto Naegi That was hopelessly funny.
Genius.
Yeah... that would have made a great joke...
And vice versa. Money is time!
The best hiding spot is using a coin route to disguise it as a glitch balloon.
If you can do this well not only would it be legit but it would literally drive people mad.
Sounds like the perfect spot.
"you ready," "Leeets do it"
I did the math. The true formula for the graph at 4:00 is
y = 17/14x + 3
Where x is the time the hider takes to hide the balloon minus the coin time, and y is the time the seeker is given to find the balloon rounded down.
Really usefull video, Ceave.
Also, how did you the glitch at 0:47? I thought the Glydon glitch was patched.
But it can’t be because It had a balloon
Stuff N' Things 707 where's the balloon in that clip?
O L D F O O T A G E
I’d say that the best way to hide balloons isn’t to make it hard, but to make it fun
you can use y = 3 + floor(1.215*x)
here's a python code so that you can copy it and not have to calculate yourself:
for a in range(31): print(str(a) + ' - ' + str(3+int(a*1.215)))
I had a feeling that the optimal balloon is like a speedrun type balloon. It would mean they have no time to look so they'd basically have to guess a direction and lose most of the time.
Hi! I really liked this video. I'm a game designer (not on Super Mario Odyssey obviously), and I think I can shed some light on some points, from a professional standpoint.
First, for the "You picked a really good hiding spot", I didn't even notice it to be fair. To me this was a generic fake praise you get in pretty much all games that give you feedback on something subjective (at least from a computer's point of view). The same goes when a character asking for your name in an RPG replies "Hmm, that's a/n weird/good/interesting name." Because it is impossible to assess the quality of a name.
And as you probably noticed, it is very hard to assess the objective quality of a hiding spot for a player, let alone for the game's code.
• Time is a good indicator, but it doesn't really work in practice, because you can be slow or wait for 30 full seconds to hide a balloon, which may eventually be in plain sight at the end of a straight path.
• Line of sight is not a good indicator either, because you can hide something easily from Luigi's position. Conversely, you can have direct line of sight to the balloon from the starting position, but have to do real tricky moves to access it. If the game were to assess the quality on that criterion alone, many tough balloons would be assessed as obvious, and vice versa. The number of obstacles between the balloon's final position and Luigi could be used to refine the assessment, but even then, it could be easily jammed by visible, but tricky balloons.
• Distance is a bit similar to line of sight; a huge distance doesn't mean the balloon is actually well hidden.
So yeah, the "Hey you picked a really good hiding spot" line basically means "Hey player I have no idea what you just did but I'll be polite and enthusiastic anyway".
Now, for the extended time granted to the attacker... I can't even think how you can possibly be mad at this. The balloon's hider already has the upper hand:
• They know where the balloon is or will be (duh). The attacker doesn't know exactly where the balloon will be, especially if it is hidden far from the starting spot. It is only fair that they get some extra seconds to adjust their path once in the vicinity. This is called "tolerance".
• They get an unlimited number of FREE tries to hide the balloon, which means that, when they decide to place it, it is at the end of their (arguably) best run. The attacker can therefore try crazy moves and frame-perfect combinations, if they fail at any point in the sequence, they can simply try again. On the other hand, the attacker has to pay for every single try (although they do get a discount after the first try), and the slightest mistake in a series of tricky move amounts to failing the run entirely.
So, to even the odds, some extra time is the bare minimum. I can't possibly imagine a world where sane developers would refrain from adding this kind of balancing mechanic :)
r/wooosh on the name thing.
From a design perspective you could raycast out from multiple angles and the more colliding objects found the higher the praise text. Or in other words it's better hidden because it has lower visibility.
Conversely you could measure the number of inputs used by the time taken and distance to get a mathematical idea of the difficulty.
Combine the difficulty with the visibility and you'd have a hard to game system for praising good hiding spots.
r/whooosh
The part about Luigi's comment was a joke.
Before I watched this video I thought it was going to be another "just be creative in your hiding spots" videos. I WAS WRONG. Good stuff with the coin info!!!
Please don't tell me you actually bought a switch just for the sake of an experiment in this video. Your bank account must be crying!
... also if you don't need it I can take that extra Switch off our hands? ;)
REDHOT Gaming no ceavw i want it
No, he likely only created another user account on his current Switch.
Give Away for the best ballon maybe
It is also possible he has a friend who also has a switch with Odyssey and he borrowed that one for a while.
That’s also how to get a streak bonus
Okay. You want an absolutely awesome hiding spot to hide a balloon? Use a flying cheat, and go up and to the right as high as you can and look for any random invisible floors that could be lurking and place it there.
The formula i found is as following (x=hide time rounded to full seconds. Y =attack time)
Y= x+3+0.215x ROUNDED DOWN. The rounded down is really important. 30+ is treated as 31 btw.
Have you tested this on every possible number?
Thanks for bringing that to my attention, for some reason 14 is 20 instead of 19, i'll go check that out
Allright, the 0.2x is probably higher than 0.2 but lower than 0.225, i don't think it's a quadratic formula because it stays with 1 extra asec per 5 hsecs fromon 14
It only fails when x > 4, and is one less than a multiple of five
Allright i did some more testing and i think its 0.2075x but i'm not sure yet
f(x) = 0.2x+3 (Domain is 0-30 and Range is all whole numbers) works as a function for this chart. Pretty much, from 0 to 4, the seeker time increases by 3 seconds, and then every multiple of 5 the increased amount of time increases by 5.
I quickly copied your table into excel and it seems to me the mathematical Formula is:
*AT(HT) = 1,22*HT+2,5*
AT=Attack Time
HT= Hide Time
Due to the Timer only displaying whole Numbers we need to round off to the nearest integer
(For Example:
HT=0
1,22*0+2,5=2,5 rounded 3
HT=20
1,22*20+2,5=26,8 rounded 27.)
It basically is just a standard linear progression.
Ah rip my calculation, i had x+3+0.215x but i think yours works as well
Tintin Tim i thought wheatly was a moron
can u speak english plz
Um
I don’t speak that language
Or you just find a really difficult jump that is nearly impossible to do first try, or 2nd etc. try for that matter. Like that one in lake kingdom. If getting to the balloon itself is so difficult, then it doesn't matter wether you know where it is or not. Or place a balloon where the only way to get to it is very far away from where the actual arrow points. Like the electric pylon one in bowser's kingdom, where the endpoint of the pylon is forward, but if you go forward you'll be met with a cage that won't let you in. In order to get in you have to actually go very far left, meaning players will struggle to realise that you have to go there to get in. Also, the timer is rigged so that the seekers get about 1/3 more time to find it, which is fair since they don't know exactly where it is, only the rough location. So scouting around for it is worth that time. What you said about small optimisations not working because of this is true, but if you get an optimised route that is so optimised that even with this extra time (and without coin seconds) the player has to take your optimised version to reach it in time, then they may really struggle to work out what the optimised version of it actually is, meaning they won't be able to find the balloon (if your optimisation is very obscure). That is how nintendo designed it, so there are many ways to hide the best balloon. The best balloons overall are the ones that take maximum advantage of all of these strategies and I think the way nintendo designed it was intelligent and insightful. I disagree with your stance on the extra seconds therefore.
002 CD8 9T4 , Bowser's Kingdom.
Actually really far from the starting point, only had 1 second remaining, so it should be 30 seconds to get there.
Naydraph If you had one second remaining on your timer then the finders get 38 seconds to find it.
Oh yeah...true.
But since 30+ HT results to 40 AT... If i get some coins before getting to where I want to go and finsishes with 40 used seconds in HT, then that means the attacker has 40 seconds to find it too.
So basically if you want the AT to be equal to the HT, you have to collect 20 coins and use the time they gave you. Thanks for reminding me that Vatra
Roughly:
HIDE TIME = [ (6/5) * ATTACK TIME + 3]
Results are heavily rounded up or down at seemingly random, probably to achieve a 1 to 1 table relation between both variables.
A good option for this game would be to set up your own time limit for other players. For example, choosing the shortest time limit before you place your balloon and being successful at it would give you more coins. Idk about this idea i just thought of it and thought it would be good.
neb 421
But only if you could verify the lowest time possible. If not, impossible balloons would appear
Way to go, Bro. You picked a really good hiding spot.
0:05 Wow! How did you find 184 balloons in a row?!
Martti It's easy. If you go to metro, there' a super easy jump that EVERYBODY always uses. I've gotten huge streaks from that one island. Just look for a 170m balloon to the west in NDC.
Gaming Dudester or over 200 on the starting area which is easier and harder to screw up.
Martti Mushroom kindgdom with 74m arrow pointing up.
your videos are literally the coolest i’ve seen in a looong time. keep up the amazing work!
We have a new Pannenkoek. And he's Austrian.
RDVMusic nederlands
JELLY 2 Look up his channel info. Austrian.
The function appears to be very very strongly linear, just with a fractional slope and y intercept. It probably is perfectly linear but then the game rounds, making it seem not linear at first blush. It should be (Attack Time) = 1.2133(Hide Time) + 2.5746, where the values are rounded. Even with the rounded values, the function I showed has an r value of .9996 (r is how linear it is. 0 = not linear at all 1 = perfectly linear with positive relationship -1 = perfectly linear with negative relationship) and an r^2 value of .9993 (r^2 is what percent of the variation in y (change in attack time) can be explained by the variation of x (change in hide time). So, 99.93% of the linear change in attack time can be explained by the change in hide time.
Ceave Gaming: *gets a second switch with mario odyssey to test this* me: *cant even afford one switch with the game* screw you XD haha
HATER
In short, the most likely equation nintendo used in their code for calculating the seek time is something like:
s = min(max(0, 30 - h) * 17 / 14 + 3, 40)
where 'h' is the lowest hide time that was left on the timer (as an stored int value) and 's' is the seek time.
In length, plugging in the data from the table into a graph, the equation seems to be linear. Summing up comments below in addition with personal testing, for this set of data, the graph y = min(floor(x * 17 / 14) + 3, 40) is the most logical answer, where x is the hide time and y is the seek time. Integer values in code cannot hold decimal values, so since x is very likely an integer value in code, dividing it by any number does not include the decimal, and since x is never negative, the floor function is practically useless; this renders y = min(x * 17 / 14 + 3, 40) as the most logical answer. This is the answer in many comments. In UltraLuigi's comment, x+x/4.65+3 simplifies about to 1.215x+3, which is about 17/14x+3; however, 17/14x+3 is much easier to write than x+x/4.65+3. The max(0, 30 - h) is also used to calculate the hide time used based on the time in the timer with a minimum of 0. Combining this together we get the function above in short. I just realized this is a 6 month old video… lol
I trought the attacter time wad from the lvl from the hidders
At 4:37 the forumla seems to be x + 3 + floor(x/4.6)
Hey ceave, you gotta try community posts! You can use them for tips and tricks screenshots, mario maker magic tricks, and everything you don’t need to make a full video for!
The only problem is that people on mobile and whatnot can't see community posts.
• Nin-Tanner • yes we can lol
Oh, it doesn't work for me. Maybe it's because I'm using an iPad 4.
Timothy Lei What? Community posts are available on UA-cam
Attack time = (Hide time) * 17/14 + 3, rounded down, but there are many solutions. Congrats to everyone who got it!
I'm kinda sad the only way to hide good balloons is through coins because there aren't that many coins to find in each area...
I mean there are, but routing a paths so that you always run on coin time leaves little to no options.
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I agree
With all due respect obviously the attacker gets more time. If they didn’t sure they could get to the balloon and throw crappy into it faster, but they wouldn’t have any time to actually find it
You were talking about conspiracy theories, and this video has 666 likes and 6 dislikes, anything you need to tell us Ceave?
At the time of me watching, it was 665 likes and 6 dislikes, so I liked the video to bump it up. The video was good anyway.
People use the like button duh
at my time it was 1k likes and 26 diskliikes
but 666 AND 6 so... 6666 3 6es=u know what and 4= nothing
???
0:57 I always used to think, when u put those clips of ur video I though that was the intro
"the only reasonable ways was to buy a second switch w/ mario odyssey" ;0; lol or just have a friend who has it and find how long it took 4 them 2 hide it
Oh wow! This is insane! Good job figuring all of this out!
Or you could have just created an other account to your switch, and not buy an other switch
The thing is he needed to test it with 2 mario odyssey games at once. You cant play on an account while also playing on another acount
You can make a note of the balloon code and enter it on a different account on the same switch, I've done it and it works
Yes but he had to do 30 tests which would take forever to do switching constantly.
So you can make those Super Mario Galaxy speed comet levels where you have to get the clocks. Cool!
1:16 can someone tell me how you ride a jaxi when your hiding a balloon? when I tried it looks impossible cause it's buried in the sand so wtf?!
Perform jaxi skip?
This may be true, however, it takes time for the attackers to ‘find’ the ballon. So it’s reasonable that they get more time
Wait couldn't you have made another account on your 1st switch?
gravy spectre yeah, but then he would have to close the software and wait forever for it to reload 30 times.
Well this is still better than spending 300$
I’ve been making a lot of paper lines. They help. You really are nice to listen too!
"...so I got myself another Switch..." ⊙︿⊙
I think it gives the seeker's more time because not everyone can do complicated Cappy throws and jumps off walls and stuff like that. I just got the game and I'm not great with jumps and I might search up how to do cool complex jumps with cappy sometime. But you seem great at making Cappy jumps
*Try my balloon in the **_Moon Kingdom!_* 001 D2P DFW
(Favorite) FavorateGamingPeople
Got it.
Really well hidden
this "formula" for attack time would be much simpler to describe in code. from 0-4s, +3 to attack. for 5-9, +4. for 10-14, +5. for 15-18, +6. for 19-23, +7. for 24-27, +8. for 28-30, +9. for >30 +10. id guess these numbers were just chosen arbitrarily in intervals of 5, then tweaked as the gameplay was tested for the longer times.
0:47 WHAT!
You can clip through almost every surface with the gliding lizard :/
It's only a matter of time until 90% of all the balloons in the game can only be reached by using this glitch...
SmashTom nope. Glydon glitch was patched
The out of bounds was recorded before the patch. (:
Ceave Gaming ah, k. Miss that glitch cause of how you could use it almost everywhere and it's super easy. But it would have broken bw
Ceave Gaming my baloon code for wooded kingdom is :
007 P5W 94D
The reason Nintendo rigged the game in the attacker's favor is so the attacker wouldn't have to find the balloon using the exact same inputs and exact same times as the defender.
Please tell us your friend code on your Switch!!
The Gaming Bros his friend code is [CENSORED].
why did you do that
I know it’s probably been said already but I want to comment for my own personal benefit
Ta = Th + 3 + floor(Th/5)
Where Ta is time to attack and Th is time to hide
Although, they probably just used integer division instead of the floor function
Ceave before he had sex for the first time:
“Lettttsss do this”
???? but.....why you do this... ????
@@magdamagdalena7309 Because it is funny.
It seems like it starts with hiding time +3 and then adds an extra second every 5 hiding seconds. So... AT = (HT + 3) + (HT × 0.2). Then rounding down. AT being Attack Time and HT being Hiding Time.
117th
Wow I am early
Pretty sure nobody cares
Edit: I meant 117th view
Why am i always watching ur vids? I mean i dont even own any of those mario games u r making videos about xD But it's still fun to watch ur videos xd
Could you not gave just played a new file under a new user? It would take significantly longer to switch back and forth (no pun intended) but would save $360
where did you get the extra 100 dolans from? a Switch cost 300 dolans plus a AAA game cost 60 round it up 360 dolans
Oh you're right woops
It's 480 dollars Canadian for the Switch + game because the Canadian dollar is currently trash. $400 for the Switch and $80 for the game. And that's _before_ taxes. And assumes that you don't wanna buy an actual warranty for your Switch, such as the 1-year warranty offered by EB Games for $50. With that plus taxes, the total cost works out to $593.58.
funny enough, that's $460.66 US
He can'd do that because only one account per switch can be linked to a Nintendo.com account, and when you unlink your account from your Nintendo.com account the Balloon he placed would disappear.
Estoy comenzando a amar este canal...
My switch broke so I can’t do dis ☹️ wait I think I got 1st 🙃
kyle oram It broke in under a year?
I use my switch in the bath. Never got broken.
Thing is it actually doesnt break in the bath. Dont ask how i know this
(here's an image of the graphing that I did that will be a good reference point: imgur.com/a/xFFtv5E)
The thing is, y = 1.21505x+3, a function a few of other people are using, gives 15.15 for x = 10 but y = 1.2x+3 gives 15.0 for x = 10. Similarly, both x = 0 and x = 5 are correct for y = 1.2x+3. So we know that y = 1.21505x+3 isn't 100% correct.
Indeed, every x value from 0 to 14 (the first "phase") aligns with y = 1.2x + 3, as long as you round down even past half a second. The rounding down past half a second is an odd choice, but it makes sense if you think about it (I'm finding it hard to put into words why exactly it does make sense currently, though).
Then, once it gets past x = 14 and into the second phase, I found by doing a linear regression on Graphmatica of the first data point (the only data points of the phase that aren't rounded down) of each of the three sections in this phase (look at the pink dots on the image at the start for what I mean by this), and it told me that the linear function happened to be a nice, clean, y = 1.2x + 3.2. The cleanliness of this function makes me think that they would have went with this.
This function stays until x = 28 the last phase, when it changes one more time, to y = 1.2x + 3.4. After this phase i.e. at x = 30, y stays at a flat 40 seconds, at least according to the data in the table.
So, Nintendo must have jumped from one neat linear function to the next, all while rounding down.
If you calculate the rounded-down y-values based on the line the point is on, it'll always be accurate, e.g. for x = 17, the value is two thingies below y = 1.2x + 3, so the function you use is y = 1.2x + 2.6. 1.2*17 + 2.6 = 23 seconds, which is accurate with the table you show in the video.
The link to the website doesn't work
@@sauceman6457 Damn, that's weird. I've never even seen a blank white screen for an imgur link error. You can probably plot the functions i list in the comment, but I'll look for a working link
your voice is so relaxing
and i love how you say hoo-ray
Good content man! Keep up the good work!
I hid a really neat balloon in Bowser’s Kingdom. I had to jump off the starting point like in this video, but then long jump off the curve on the roof, use a double-Cappy dive, hit the ledge above the pokios while in a roll, accelerate once, get past where the pokios are without running into them, roll to the spark pylon while timing boosts to maximize acceleration, zip to the crazy cap island, dive, roll, and long jump as soon as I exited the spark pylon, do a double Cappy dive onto the roof, roll into the small space, and place the balloon. I got there with 1 second left on the timer.
Any number of things could force the attacker to waste their mercy lead, such as landing near the pond instead of on the ledge, spamming Y while rolling instead of pressing it rhythmically, taking damage from a particularly nastily-placed pokio, or using a regular jump instead of a long jump and breaking their roll. And after all that, if they fail to line up the final roll and bonk the side of the narrow bit, it’s all over. I’d say it’s a challenge even with the mercy lead.
I expect it to be popped but I will be very impressed if there are less than 10 total attempts. It took me half an hour to hide it.
You really bought another switch and got Odyssey just for that test? such dedication.
It looks like there are a series of break points, where the time allowed increases by a second more. Starting with +3 seconds, and ending with +9. Looking at this chart, to me it looks like the break points are after 4, 9, 13, 18, 23, and 27 seconds. Which look hard coded rather than a regular pattern, but I think the break points are the only hard coding you need.