10 Examples of EDHREC Being Wrong | Commander Clash Podcast 126
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- Опубліковано 14 чер 2024
- EDHRec is great resource, but sometimes you have to dig a little deeper into the numbers...
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0:00 Start
2:24 Brainstorm
10:26 Deathrite Shaman
19:58 Mana Dorks
31:55 Lightning Greaves
37:02 Cyclonic Rift
43:05 Teferi's Ageless Insight
50:15 Wrath of God
54:47 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1:01:45 Sign in Blood and bonus callouts - Ігри
i love that for brainstorm richard says its not in a precon while showing the afr commander version of the card
It's not shown to the cast in that way at the time of recording. The editor "niuttuc" puts the card art up for us in post editing.
I could be wrong, but subtle signs in their conversations over the years led me to believe that.
Let’s not forget that you have infinitely more tutors that do the shuffle the deck…like it’s obvious that it’s good af
@@randallferguson1981yeah but card draw in commander is more explosive. Cantrips are awful in commander. The name of the game in 60 card is consistency. You want your entire deck to do a single game plan with 4-12 cards in your deck. In commander, your entire deck does a gameplan. If you've built your commander deck well and aren't playing cedh you have 50 cards that vaguely do what you want to do because if you build your deck around a single effect you have at best like 5 cards that do it. You can't be consistent with cantrips when only 5% of your deck has the effect you need. You need to be drawing 10 cards or tutoring.
They don't know what's shown. This is all added by the editor (tomer) at a later time.
@@bye1551only five percent of your deck does the thing your deck wants to do?
Richard bringing up Farseek multiple times and no references to him playing it in mono green is a crime
I love my Farseek that's signed by Richard! 🙈🤣
@@TheDyllsSo you play it in mono G, right?
@@ComfyDents Unfortunately, I'm just a pretender... I play it in at least dual coloured decks 😔
....umm.. it definitely should not be played in mono-green.
@@deadNdivine12That's the joke.
Richard: Play fog, it'll save your bacon.
Also Richard: Cyc Rift only prolongs the game for a single turn.
He also keeps stressing the mana cost, but fails to see that there's usually a more sizable mana cost for the opponents who are trying to redeploy. The mana swing is usually in your favor.
Richard makes a hypocritical and nonsensical argument. In other news, the sky is blue.
It seems like he's never seen it used offensively.
Use that on someone's end step and you've likely put them into an unrecoverable situation at that point if the game while the other two have to use their whole turn redeploying or suffer the same fate.
I hate the argument of " they'll redeploy next turn" some boards may take two turns to re set up if it's combo shit or chonky Bois summoned via dorks or rocks
If you play cyclonic rift wrong, then it totally makes sense for what he says which I see too many people do cause their threat assessment is piss poor. When used properly, you typically just win while they struggle to sometimes barely redeploy 1/3 of their board sometimes far less.
Richard: Mana dorks are metagame dependent
Me: Oh my god are they finally going to recognize that their meta is way more wrath heavy than the majority of playgroups?
Richard: That means you should play MORE wraths!
Richard is the embodiment "I'm not out of touch, it's the children that are wrong"
Also its not as if Wraths nowadays have multiple modes, were they are also just gonna hit artifacts, like farewell
I noticed when I first started playing that I was the only one running interaction or wraths, and that by being the one who answered everything I not only painted a target on my back but also was sinking all my mana into taking out threats while the other players at the table just kept building their boards. So now I don't run near as many wraths. I've since branched out to other playgroups and I notice they don't run many wipes either. Watching commander clash is kinda nutty.
It’s crazy how often the argument against playing anything is that it could possibly get removed or countered comes up.
its worth considering. `Dies to removal` is essentially shorthand for `the floor of this card is too probable to justify the ceiling,`
or equally, `the ceiling of this card is not high enough to be considered over other cards given the intrinsic possibility of removal/blowout.`
Crim has completely warped their meta game in a good way imo but it makes them terrible at evaluating cards for the average commander player
While basically anything CAN be removed or countered, some card types are easier to remove than others. Instants and sorceries CAN be countered, but there's not much other removal that works on them, whereas creatures die to counterspells PLUS a lot of other removal.
Also, some cards give you value even if someone removes them. For example, if you cast a Ravenous Chupacabra and someone kills it immediately, you still get to destroy a creature. Whereas if you cast a Llanowar Elves and someone kills it immediately, you get nothing.
@@olvynchuru1663 If someone uses spot removal on my mana dork and not my commander or something else I'm ecstatic lol. If we're talking about board wipes then those usually don't happen till turn 5+ so I've already gotten ample value from the dork.
A tale as old as time...
Should have called this episode like "7 times MTG Goldfish was wrong about EDHREC"
The deathrite shaman and brainstorm convos actually triggered me
@@peewee0224 Nah Richard is right about Brainstorm
@@zaklawrence-earey6832 1 mana draw 3 in any deck is good, plus top deck manipulation plus spell slinger trips or storm like what are u talking about
@@gabecastillo1634 Its not 1 mana draw 3 in reality though is it? You need reliable ways to clear the top of your deck (surveil, shuffle etc) for the card to be actively good. By no means am I going to argue Brainstorm is a bad card but the card without pieces just locks your next 2 draws.
Arguing that it triggers spell slinger effects or adds to storm count is fairly pointless given that every nonland card adds storm count, and every noncreature triggers spellslinger effects.
@@zaklawrence-earey6832 it locks the next two draws you wouldn’t have had for three more turns lmao, ur objectively wrong on this one pal, and it triggering spell slingers and storm does matter when it fills ur hand with anything else while trying to go off
“Why don’t you just cut the 10 cent Llanowar Elves from all your decks and replace them with $175 Mana Crypts?” Having a Big Think over here 🤔🤔🤔
richard arguing that you cant hold up a fetchland vs richard arguing that you can hold them up right after
Richard just gaslights his pod to wins
Richard holding the same logic from one minute to the next? Literally not possible. In most of these discussion videos, he will argue "You can't do X" and then argue "Just do X" a few moments later.
@@zeroisnineYeah, Richards just start his political work even before the game.
Mana dorks are modular. Early game, mana dorks are ramp. Mid-game, mana dorks are creature synergy pieces. Late-game, mana dorks are additional bodies for Craterhoof Bohemoth. I'd rather draw a mana dork late game than a Sol Ring.
Even more importantly, dorks turn into blockers when you really need them.
I guess artifact synergies mustn't be a thing then.
@@AstoranSolaire Didn't say that, but the group did poo-poo the idea that creature synergies make mana dorks good, so just following that logic artifact synergies don't make mana rocks good.
I know it would represent a much smaller number of decks, but if I have a 3 mana value commander I am 100% putting in a bunch of dorks, because I want it out turn 2.
@@geoffbarnes2590 trying to build Dr Madison Li rn and there just are not any really. gold hound was the closest I've found besides spring leaf and paradise mantle which arent nearly as good as an actual dork
Richard, I have seen so many "I have Cyclonic Rift, game over" situations. It is fog/board wipe/evasion quite often.
It's one of those cards I am starting to try to avoid using because its too good.
Last two times I cast it, it was fog your big attack, and I am swinging for lethal next turn; and I am ahead, but now I am WAY ahead and won a turn earlier than I could have.
In one case it made the game faster not slower.
I've seen it both ways. I agree with Richard in a casual game setting. The player will cast Cyclonic Rift, but not meaningfully advance their own game plan. Over the next turn cycle, everyone plays all their permanents again, and then smacks the caster for being annoying. Of course, I've seen and been on the other side too. It's a one sided wrath that can win you the game.
The thing about Cyclonic Rift is similar to Armageddon.. If it's advancing your game plan, you can back it up, it's the best card in your deck. But if you're playing a casual game and casting it for lols, it's just going to get you hated out of the game (and you've made the game take half an hour longer than it needed)
Usually Cyclonic Rift is the (boring) answer players have to the strangest commander questions. Enchantress/pillowfort/stax? Don't care, cyc rift eot. Popping off with Bolas's Citadel, putting a bunch of things into play, building a huge board state, it's gone and your life total is too. Doing something really cool with an underutilized creature type? Reanimating big dudes? Cyclonic Rift doesn't care, and it's going to have an impact in any game where board state matters. Haven't cast a cyc rift in a good ten years because I don't like it.
@@Kryptnyt That's fair. It's a catch-all that allows you to not run real answers. It's on my list of "wouldn't run if I owned one", alongside Rhystic and Tithe.
@@Kryptnytyes, this versatility that lets it get around so many things is precisely why it’s so strong (and probably boring). However, that strength can’t be denied, and I feel like I’m taking crazy pills after having just watched someone genuinely argue that it’s not good, lol.
After hearing his unhinged rant about Cyclonic Rift, I am onboard for the start of Richard's villain arc
Insane that the man has never heard of tempo
The start? He's been the villain of the podcast since day one
@@andyspendlove1019 a mono white player who doesn't know the term tempo, we love to see it
Literally cannot remember the last time someone resolved an overloaded cyclonic rift and didn't win. Its a hot take for sure.
I don t play rift so much.Personaly in my experience if it s not a winmore card it s just prolong the game. I find my self using the 2 mana mode more
Tomer needs to start bringing out blood moon and back to basics to punish these greedy mana bases.
Honestly both bloodmoon and magus are just fine cards and should be played much more, if just to stick it to 5c decks. Back to basics on the other hand..... is a bit more salt inducing.
@@Shimatzu95If Blood Moon was cheaper I'd play it in every red deck, even my 3 color decks are half basics lol
@@Lucarioguild7you can get them for
bring back stax
This is a great idea! You could even call it "Disputing the Data"... No, wait... "Confronting the Statistics"... No, doesn't sound quite right... Well, I am sure you will think of something!
Maybe.. Challenge the Statistics? Mhm nah I feel like that's a little too longwinded
Mana dorks exist to help you play cultivate turn 2 so you can turn 3 your 5 mana commander.
Also, as Tomer said, literally any deck that cares about creatures
@@Summer_SnowsWhere are we going to find a green deck that cares about creatures though? 🤔 They simply don't exist because of board wipes apparently.
@@Lucarioguild7 I know, right? Who cares about creature based strategies, is not like big mana heavily depends on the usage of both mana artefacts and mana dorks for consistency sake.
Just play the 2 mana green ramp. Unless you have the green creature card draw support. Also never play cultivate it’s a garbage card
@@peewee0224 you’re wrong. Cultivate/kodama’s reach can be better than 2 mana ramp, depending on how your deck is built and what power level you’re playing at. I play a lord windgrace deck that typically wins with a non-deterministic combo between turns 4-6 and I run cultivate but not nature’s lore. Getting a land in hand to play the next turn is great, especially when you can turn 1 a land + mana crypt + cultivate. Again, it’s deck dependent but there’s no strong argument for why 2 mana ramp is *always* better than cultivate.
Another "Challenge the Stats" segment that Joey can't segue into 😂
Lol my two favorite podcasts
He had to make a video to get one, and then they made a whole podcast to put him back in his place.
5:00 Crim trying to argue that "Draw a card, look at the top 2 cards of your deck" is a weaker effect than "Draw a card" because he feels bad when the 2 cards he sees are bad.
lol so insane
He's making the point at how bad Brainstorm is that it's barely better than cycling.
I mean, it isn't like the prototypical blue cantrip only says draw a card. Every other playable one (unless we're actually playing Whispers of the Muse as an infinite mana payoff or want to go off with The Unspeakable for memes) lets you filter cards; Brainstorm is unique that it doesn't.
Hahahahahaha how the fuck is more information bad hahahaha boy just walk away from the table like boy close your eyes haha
@@dee-wreckand he's wrong
man seth nailed it with the statistics about death rite shamans, his arguments just overshadowed what everyoneelse said for me
well done seth
Agreed, I would love to see the people concede their initial opinion in these podcasts. Seth disproved Crim and Richards argument with logic and evidence, it was then basically ignored in favour of the "nu-uh" argument.
Was super annoying to hear them act like exiling an LED won’t save you from dying
Deathrite can’t exile artifacts
And the fact none of them mentioned the fact it’s graveyard hate.
I have won more games off of an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift than any other card in the format. Richard is dead wrong. Yes, lots of people play it wrong, but when played at the right moment it is an absolute blowout.
Agreed. I've finished so many games with cyc rift.
So, how did a cyc rift kill your opponent again? I'd rather just have another way to actually finish people off.
The only time cyc rift is very powerful is if everyone is playing battle cruiser style decks. Otherwise, it's decent at best. The 2 drop form of the spell is more likely to be more powerful the higher the level of the deck.
I do agree that mana dorks are likely to be removed, but in my experience, most players don't run 10 wraths. I have played many games that don't even have one. I don't think they are quite as fragile in casual as the Crew claims.
Also, you're not planning on playing all your dorks out. You're aiming to hit one on T1, then you just curve out normally
if people are running 10 wraths, graveyards are probably going to be full of creatures, so deathrite shaman just gets even better, honestly
@@zeroisnine this has always baffled me outside very specific decks. imma spend 10 slots on dorks to play a commander 1 turn earlier instead of cards that actually further your board state is mind boggling
I get that Deathrite Shaman isn't like auto include in very many decks, but it certainly never sucks.
Brainstorm is both in the Baldur's Gate precon and in the Warhammer 40k precon.
Its also in the 2015 precon
also prismari performance
Atleast both those examples have reasons for the top deck manipulation(cascade and playing from the top to free equip) so it actually has a purpose
@@SpecHallenbeckit has a purpose in most decks
@@peewee0224if you don’t have a consistent way to get rid of the cards you put back on top or take advantage of putting them back on top in an order you want, I’d say I’ve actually seen it screw people over a lot of the time.
Using Richard logic, mana dorks are kind of like a 1 mana extra turn spell on turn 1. Most people skip their first turn because they don't have a play. A mana dork utilizes that turn by ramping. By time someone is willing to board wipe, you've probably gotten plenty of value from it.
But you used a resource, a card. It wasnt free ;)
I disagree with Brainstorm. Why does everyone always talk about "Brainstorm Locking" like its the Brainstorm's fault your top three cards are bricks? You would have bricked just as badly if the Brainstorm was a draw 1 like Gitaxian Probe, the Brainstorm just lets you know 2 turns earlier. Blaming Brainstorm is just being mad at the bearer of bad news.
The point is that all cantrips have “Draw a card [plus some upside].” Git-Probe is zero mana and gives you information that can allow you to construct a better plan than you had without that information.
Or you could be up the mana, and the potential card that you wasted to know you were bricked anyway. You'll find out eventually 🤷♀️
Exactly, I was baffled by the fact that they were acting like it’s possible for a brainstorm to leave you worse off. It’s like a (mostly) better anticipate that lets you access any of your top 3 cards, and worse case a cantrip that gives you information about your next 2 draws.
@@crawdaddy2004yeah the upside is DRAW THREE CARDS. That amount of card velocity for 1 mana is insane.
@@peewee0224But unless you have shuffle effects or draw triggers, Ponder is going to be better nine out of ten times in Commander. I used to play CounterTop in Legacy. I am well aware of how good Brainstorm is.
Richard called himself a "weenie expert" hehehehehehe
Also, why is my opponent using removal on my lightning greaves a bad thing? Thats one less removal pointed at my cmdr
Finally, ive been playing edh since the 1st precons, cyclonic rift basically always wins me the game every time i cast it
I swear Richard is a contrarian who just says stuff to get a reaction out of people
2:24 Brainstorm
10:26 Deathrite Shaman
19:58 Mana Dorks
31:55 Lightning Greaves
37:02 Cyclonic Rift
43:05 Teferi's Ageless Insight
50:15 Wrath of God
54:47 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1:01:45 Sign in Blood and bonus callouts
Thanks
Thanks
Already in the description...
@@dwpetrakDerived from my comment, looks like, since timestamps and tags are exactly the same.
This is the longest challenge the stats section ever... by 6 minutes and 46 seconds. EDHRECast did a full episode on this too lololol
Cascade/discover decks can also make good use of Brainstorm. Getting the specific card you want to cascade into is great.
The argument is that 25% of decks are playing it when less than that should be. The ones that should be are the cascade/miracle/etc decks.
@@iNCoMpeTeNtplAyS Oh, I agree. Just mentioning a use that they didn't really talk about.
Brainstorm is typically pretty good to me. Like Tomer said, if you have something that abuses the top-card, Brainstorm is great. But, also, there are times I’d rather dig into the deck a bit, grab some lands and low-cost things, then save a couple of 3 & 4-drops for the next couple of turns. Yeah, there are times I want to shuffle, but there are also times I don’t want to shuffle. Probably still over-played, though
I think Brainstorm is fine, and people aren't losing games because they casted a brainstorm, but I often want that deckslot for something else. Legacy players want to play with smaller decks, commander players wish they could put more cards in their decks.
Like they said at the beginning, recently I've found that EDHrec is a tool, not a be all end all. Some of the most fun I've had in mtg deckbuilding is making decks with less use of EDHrec and more of scryfall like resources. Really leads to the decks feeling different than others with the same commander.
"Brainstorm lock" is fictitious. There are obviously more and less efficient ways to play the card, but the idea that by knowing your top deck you're locking yourself is incorrect.
It's incorrect but it feels bad for a reason; the upside to your cantrip is too often "look at the top two cards of your library". That's a bad cantrip, and 1 mana cantrips are already bad in edh.
Obviously when you have the shuffle effect, or the top-of-library synergy Brainstorm is bonkers, but I agree that too many decks run it without these shuffle effects/synergies.
Wrath of god is 4 mana, there are very few that cost less and I have found that the regeneration clause on it actually comes up
Crim in the demolition lovers sweatshirt and blue hair making him full grixis is actually fire
Actually, fire is fire.
@@stonedphilosopher2185 never heard of figurative language?
@@zemineriver8043 Chandra's hair is actual fire! Yes, I've heard of this figurative language thing. My kid watches these Minecraft channels. The creators there literally say literally every sentence and it's literally never literal.
The thing is if you use the word actual figuratively, it kind of loses it's meaning altogether. Actual means non-figurative. I shouldn't let these kinds of things get to me, sorry. I concede, Crim's got style
Any commander that has a "draw a card whenever you do X" effect wants teferi's ageless insight.
MTG Goldfish has joined the trend of Challenge The Stats.
It's so painfully obvious how much more commander Tomer plays than the other 3.
I feel like people heavily overstate how bad being brainstorm locked is. Let's label the cards in the deck A,B,C, etc. for clarity You have 4 cards in hand, A,B,C, and D. The cards on top of your deck are E,F,G,H etc. A cantrip is on the stack - either a brainstorm without access to shuffle, or an opt.
With opt, you can get E immediately, or skip past it and get F immediately. If you take E, it'll take you two additional draws to reach G, and three draws to reach H. If you bottom it, it'll take you 1 draw to reach G, and two draws to reach H.
With brainstorm, you can get E,F, and G immediately. You then put any two cards you don't need immediately on top. It'll take you three draws to reach H. That's identical to an opt with a scry to the top, and one draw slower than an opt with a scry to the bottom.
If the card you really needed was E, both get it immediately. If the card you really needed was F, opt gives you the chance to not scry properly and not get it until a turn later, while brainstorm gets it in hand immediately no matter what. If the card you really needed was G, brainstorm gets it in hand immediately, while opt has to wait at least a turn to get it. If you needed both E and F, opt forces you to wait a turn, while brainstorm get's it immediately. If you needed E and G, opt forces you to wait two turns. If you needed E and some card H or lower, both get you there at the same speed. If the card you needed is H or deeper, opt is faster by a turn, but only if you scry bottom. Otherwise they're the same.
Brainstorm with a "lock" is either better or the same as opt, in every situation except when you need a card 4 deep in the deck or further, and also don't want the card on top, and also don't mind waiting to draw several additional cards anyway. And sure, that situation isn't exactly rare. But it's also far from universal. A lot of the time, you'll be thinking "I need a board wipe this turn or I die" or "I need to hit a mana rock so I can play my commander next turn." And so you'll fire off a cantrip to try to find it. Brainstorm is a better card in these urgent situations, even if you have to lock yourself to do it. With the ability to unlock yourself even some of the time, it's really not a contest.
Tomer, please bring galadriel to the table and body them all. Run every phase out spell and put crim and Richard under a 6/6 elf.
Seth is so wrong about mana dorks it's crazy. If you have a turn one mana dork, you've spent 1 mana to generate 1 extra mana for every turn the dork is on the battlefield. 2 or 3 turns is enough for a dork to be good. Turn 1 mana ramp is really good! I don't care if it gets wrathed.
Not to mention creatures are good.
I just prefer Utopia Sprawl or Sol Ring over regular mana dorks
That's the problem, you're diluting your 99 card deck with something that is a dead draw after turn 1
It isn't though because of creature synergy.
@@DanielEvanClarke that's the reason Tomer brings up the creature synergy thing. if you draw them mid to late game, odds are you have some Beast Whisperer or Great Henge or similar effect that lets you cycle them away. then they're mana dorks or chump blockers that drew a card.
Not to mention in G/X aristocrats decks or counter decks, they're also bodies to be sacrificed or put counters on. but maybe that's too specific to matter.
@@TheSpunYarn you could just run better creatures in their place
I've been absolutely blown out by deathrite in cedh, so I think it's rated at least in a graveyard meta
Deathrite is one of those cards that gets drastically better with how expensive your meta's manabase is. It's a lot more potent in cEDH than the average LGS where there's an average of like one fetch per deck.
Yeah one of those moments where the crews lack of cedh experience shows itself. The flexibility is way better than consistent mana.
@@Kestral287 Deathrite's FLOOR is mana dork. That's literally the worst use of its ability.
No it isn't. The floor is that it can't tap for mana at all and has no relevant targets so it can... tap and pay mana to gain two life?
Deathrite wins literal games in cEDH
“Cyclonic Rift is an 8 mana Fog”
More like a 7 mana Fog plus Time Stretch
Cyclonic Rift also scales extremely well. The farther behind you are the MORE free turns you get from it.
You misspelled 7 mana win the game.
I feel like 25% for brainstorm is about right when you consider how many blue commanders care about drawing multiple cards, playing instants, or manipulating the top of your deck. It plays well with a wide variety of strategies. Urza can shuffle away stuff, Niv Mizzet will get 3 triggers off of it. You can prep a card from hand to setup Yuriko, Jodah, or Kinnan.
I understand 2023 Magic has advanced, but Brainstorm was a 4 of in basically every blue deck BEFORE fetchlands existed. It's always good to instant speed draw 3 cards and put 2 you don't need, 2 you want to protect from discard, setup a scry, top deck effect, etc. It's baffling how much people latch onto "brainstorm lock" as a thing. Especially with how much scry, shuffle, and mill effects happen in EDH.
@@exsnypre Thawing Glaciers was a pretty competitive card in slower decks before fetches came out for a long time
@@Kryptnytto be fair Thawing Glaciers was ramp before the cleanup errata. You could activate it in end step of other’s turn, untap, and do it again then pick it up in your end step.
@@exsnyprethank you my god I’m like people are spoiled with legacy. Brainstorm does so many other good things outside of being an ancestral recall at home
I don't think they mentioned at all that its an instant. Which immediately makes it better than Ponder/Preordain in draw-go type decks too.
Why does Seth think Minn and Alandra are "unplayable commanders"? Especially if you go on almost any forum and look for posts about "most fun commanders" you'll usually see someone mention Minn.
Seth is a good magic player, so I don't understand why he can't seem to understand that card selection is better than "number of net cards drawn". Sign in Blood is better than it has any right to be especially in a 40 life format.
I don't like cards that just net you one card. I prefer the bigger card draw especially because black is so good at synergistic card draw. I think that read the bones is good but sign in blood is mid. I'd rather a charcoal diamond (7%) or something like unearth which fits my gameplan and can cycle. I could see it getting all the play if it was an instant, but casting sign on turn 2 or even 3 to hit a land drop especially if you haven't gotten on the board yet seems like excess wheel spinning.
Does Sign in Blood really offer selection though? I think the main argument for it is tempo - you get the two cards right away.
It literally just sees 2 cards it’s massively overrated. Brainstorm is better
What I think is the best aspect of mana dorks is how they are the cheapest way financially to get 3 mana on turn 2 and start doing other stuff be it 3+ mv land ramp (a lot more budget than the 2 mv options) or setting up a engine and finish your early development one turn earlier.
The main reason I use Wrath of God in 2023 is thats its 4 mana. I use vanquish the horde first, obviously. But I like having mana left over for other things, or to hold up mana for a counter. Sometimes I want to use a heroic intervention and then a wrath right after so its sort of a build-your-own one sided board wipe for my creature decks. That type of thing.
Not playing fetch-lands because shuffling is a hassle, etc. - I would love to see a podcast of cards you don't play specifically because of the IRL hassle they create - stuff that would be fine in an automated system but just isn't worth it at the physical table
Cathars Crusade is up there. Honestly even something like Ivy Gleeful Spellthief is really annoying to track
Coat of Arms, I got it without fully reading the effect and boy oh boy is that too much math for me to care playing the card:
*Each creature* gets +1/+1 for *each other creature* on the battlefield that shares at least one creature type with it. (For example, if two Goblin Warriors and a Goblin Shaman are on the battlefield, each gets +2/+2.)
This means everyone's creatures makes everyone's creatures stronger, it's just a global buff, but you have to remember every type of every creature on the board and adjust as more come and leave. I think you'd be targeted by the table just to get rid of the headache.
@@officeman15i was just about to comment the same thing. Cathar’s crusade is no doubt a powerful card but having to put +1 counters on like 10 creatures and keep track of them that way is such a hassle I’m always hoping that it gets removed from my board.
That take from Richard on Cyclo Rift is wild lmaooo Cyclo Rift is incredibly strong in so many different metas. Ive seen it win games several times
Okay so now I need a commander clash with different ramp methods, one person uses mana dorks, one uses spell land ramp, one uses creature land ramp, and one uses enchantments
Also you can't play a deck where these are the obvious optimal choice. Just generic decks. No edric for the mana dorks, and no enchantress for the enchantment ramp, no land fall etc.
I watch the videos and listen to the podcasts while I work. Thank yall for helping me laugh through the days!
So this video is basically an extended version of the Challenge the Stats segment from the EDGRecc cast?
They stole the segue from the entire podcast!!!
Teferi's Ageless Insight + Sauron the Dark Lord = 🔥
I love the mtggoldfish crew, im so glad you all are still doing content after my 3 year hiatus from magic.
I think for wrath of God, the stats may be skewed due to how recently some of the better white wraths have been printed. Since they’ve only been around for a few years compared to Wrath of God’s 30 years, there is significantly more data from edh decks containing wrath of god. So unless all those older decks are being edited or remade when new wraths are released, the data kind of represents an older general edh meta where wrath of God was one of if not the best wrath to run in white decks.
Edhrec only shows data from decks that have been updated or posted within 2 years to avoid such data skew.
I think Teferi's Ageless Insight is worth a look if your commander has draw attached. Aminatou's +1 is really quite good with it out, Kadena drawing two cards, etc.
Exactly, I run it in my Council of Four deck which has the sole purpose of just drawing as many cards as I can because I think it's funny, and this card does SO much work
@@jointhetorterra In that deck it must be an all star!
I think the real lesson of the mana dork debate is that people have gotten way too complacent with their lands with armageddons getting hated out of the meta.
I meant to post this on the MLD commander clash, and just... didn't, but I would be down to see the occasional armageddon on Commander Clash. Not like every week, but I think it would be healthy as an occasional spice. If nothing else, it'll get Richard's opinions in check lol
As much as I disagree with a lot of Richard's wild commander opinions, I can't disagree with his take on Cyclonic Rift haha. It's essentially a modal card where the modes are Win or fog the game for 2-3 turns. And everyone includes Cyclonic Rift because they want to use it to clear the board to set up the win , but then it ends up in their hand and someone else is about to win. And like, what are you going to do, not play it and lose? and now the game is a 4 hour slog.
But at the same time, there's nothing else in mono blue that comes even close to what Cyclonic Rift does, the gap between it and the second best card is so wide it's not even worthwhile. If only there was another 7 or 8 mana instant that returned ALL non-lands to their owner's hands...
With Deathrite how much overall value do you want for a one cmc creature? On average i see it ramp at least once and deal 12 damage to the table.
Also like, being able to exile protean hulk decks or thassas in response to an underworld breach is so nice. People just forget that it does more than make mana and start trying to go off forgetting about deathrite.
my issue with that is that it needs to tap. green has some of the best repeatable graveyard hate in the game with cards like scavenging ooze, a 1-drop that needs to tap and can remove only one card is not very efficient. it's not a bad card by any mean but I would never run it just for that. @@MrDeadDivision
@@altromonte15 for sure, it's just better than a lot of other mana dorks because it's basically a birds of para + some very niche counterplay. Like, unless someone's arguing creature type synergy for their deck I don't know why you wouldn't run it if you could and were going to run an extra mana dork.
I do concede the card has a lot of nostalgia tied to it for me and I'm having trouble not cutting it for delighted halfling nowadays lol
fore sure. IF you have fetchlands in your pods, it's one of the best dorks.@@MrDeadDivision
Big agree that mana dorks are underrated. Especially Llanowar Tribe in casual mono-G. Why yes, I’d absolutely love to be on 7 mana on T4. Or T3 if I played Llanowar Elves on T1.
I built a Toxrill deck shortly after it came out and soooo many of the cards on EDHREC were infect cards… which I now know have absolutely no place in that deck 😂
infect creatures deal damage to other creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters, so if you're leaning hard into that strategy it may make sense.
probably overcomplicating it tho lmao
@@GellyGelbertson sure if you lean hard into it, but there are much more idealized/powerful ways to get the same effect of your opponents creatures dying. I’m not saying it’s not fun, it’s totally fun to sue infect, it’s just not the best way to control the board and win in Toxrill decks
To be fair Viral Drake is legitimately there for the proliferate not the infect and with Toxrill a single -1/-1 on a creature turns each proliferate into -2/-2 instead of -1/-1. Toxrill likes SOME of the infect cards.
Toxrill is a one card win condition, putting anything that could win the game in the 99 is probably a mistake
@@Kryptnyt not really, there are a lot of win cons that fit very well in Toxrill (see it's cedh deck list as an example)
Blue has a TON of Commanders that like to mess with the top of the deck. You don't need to be shuffling those cards, you might be casting stuff from the top of the deck. Blue does that a lot.
Correct
EDHREC even has a segment every week where they challenge the data on their site guys. And regarding Sign in blood effects I think it depends a bit on how you build. Dana on edhrec loves these, but he probably builds decks a bit different from Seth.
Richard is so obviously the boss because if he wasn't he wouldn't be on a commander podcast
I play a Child of Alara gates deck with 59 lands 20 of them fetches, never thought of brainstorm going to put that in.
I agree with Tomer. Nobody’s going to board wipe turn 1-4, except in special circumstances. So, mana dorks are essential to have early game, if not to ramp into your mana rocks , but to be extra mana by turn 4 or 5 to get those 7,8,9 bombs out. Deathrite Shaman is NOT a mana dork. He should be run with life gain or punishment grave hate decks.
I used to think mana dorks were bad, but modern magic cards are so powerful that ramping to your 5 and 6 drops can be worth losing a card later to a wrath. If your turn one play is a dork into a turn two cultivate or something, you are casting things like Elesh norn, elder gargaroth , powerful planeswalkers, etc before most people are even set up. Imagine casting two dorks and a ramp spell turns 1-3, and then casting an etali. Sure your dorks might die, but you got 4 cards for free before your opponents can fight back. You have to have the payoffs, but they have actually gotten better in recent years.
I use brainstorm in yuriko, its nice to manipulate my top deck. I love deathrite in my muldrotha and krovlod deck too
Recommending Propaganda and Ghostly Prison in Superfriends despite neither of them taxing attacks on your planeswalkers
While brainstorm is basically a cantrip in some decks, it does fix your early turn in some instances. Maybe you can fix your curve by just adding 2 additional cards to your hand before you decide to mulligan with.
"Challenge the Stats" is what they normally call this
But this one is better
The flip side to you wrathing the mana dork player is they dropped bolas's citadel on turn four meanwhile all your ramp ETBed tapped and costs twice as much.
Also the difference between guardian project and tireless tracker is per card tireless tracker costs three extra mana (two for clue one mana tax for efficient land ramp).
This somehow actually made me want to reconsider *adding* Teferi's Ageless Insight to some spellslinger decks.
Most of the spellslinger decks I build are interested in casting multiple cantrips in a turn; TAI would likely function as a second copy of Whirlwind of Thought in a lot of cases, being worse sometimes but better others.
I'll have too look at how many effects "draw a card" and "draw multiple cards" vs "put a card in your hand" (or don't cantrip at all).
Right? I've had it sitting in a pile of playables that haven't made it into a deck and now I'm thinking it fits very well into my Lord of Nazgul deck
If you're "annoyed" that your opponents are always playing Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, punish them by playing with Kormus Bell and your creature destruction has become land destruction. It also gives their land summoning sickness, for an added bonus.
I've actually grown more fond of the smaller black card draws over time as i've played more.
Ive got nothing against phyexian arena but ive found 3 mana for 3 cards right now is more impactful than 3 mana for 3 cards after the table has gone full circle 3 times assuming nothing happens in the meantime.
Sounds like MTGgoldfish posing as the EDHRECast today. Should be fun.
They've stolen an entire podcast of Challenge the Stats segues from Joey.
In the subject of 1 mana mana dorks. would you play a card that draws a card and create a treasure token? cause it often works like that with dorks in green
For Teferi's Ageless Insight or brainstorm, does it count as playing them for "value" when my commander is Queza, Augur of Agonies?
Seth wincing at Crims insanity was like watching my own thoughts play out on his face.
At 45:40 we now understand why Seth never pays for Rhystic Study.
Brainstorm goes so hard in River Song lel
Actually arguing over whether or not Cyclonic Rift is a good card felt so surreal, lol. Like, that was a joke played for laughs, right? We’re all in Disney World!
The core of green decks is creature decks not landfall 😂
Fade Away is the all-star card. I love playing it in random pods and stuns everyone when they sac their tapped out board.
Can't wait for the Goldfish Crew to start stealing Joey's transitions to Challenge the Stats as well.
Raggadragga is a dork deck. Raggadragga can also win turns 3-4 with 2-3 creatures on board before the wraths come down
Yes, agree with Tomer Teferi's Insight is best in a deck where you loot a lot and suddenly you go up a card each time. Absolutely nuts in those decks.
im confused about richards thoughts on mana dorks. they ramp into your toskis quicker and draw cards before they get wrathed or you sac them for value/death triggers. you can throw a priest of titania into any deck with all the llanowar's and its nuts. the floor is a floor-ahedron. you still get to play your wood elves, just on turn 2. love these little guys. they are fledgling ospreys+++
I feel like the fact that brainstorm lets you draw three and replace 2 cards that are in your hand that you aren’t ready for yet or arnt doing anything does get discussed is wild. Like if you’re flooded or screwed you can potentially fix that. It’s not just info it’s rearrangement
The one podcast were Matt Morgan can’t steal the Segway into challenge the stats
This is more hot takes based on personal metas than useful info.
Sign in blood is great. The problem is people make a deck and blanket statement card draw as simply card draw. And that in my opinion is wrong. Often you need cheap simple card draw like sign in blood to fix land drops and keep the deck flowing . Then you need a small handful of card draw engines. The cards like sign in blood help you find your engines. Engines are often more expensive and clunky. But both have their place. Ageless insight is a perfect example of an engine (in the right deck)
i think it would be funny if once per game, y'all made someone test one of these theories. So like next Friday you make Tomer run a bunch of mana dorks, or make Richard run a bunch of spot removal, and see what happens.
The problem is that the other players would purposefully use their removal on the mana dorks because it's funny.
usually I like your videos but the brainstorm argument kinda turned me off the video, others already said it but I don't see how filtering your hand and knowing what the next two cards can be could be a bad thing especially when it's on a 1 mana card that replaces itself
Let's say you cast Brainstorm turn 6. Before your turn 7, an opponent set themself up to take full control of the game, whether it's by decreasing life totals low enough to matter, making a massive boardstate, putting a blatant threat on board, or some other route. Now the table needs answers, you already know that your next two draws don't help, so that's not only two less draws to reach the answer but also one less deck that *can* answer the situation.
Brainstorm is a strong card, digging for answers is strong, I don't run it as often anymore because there's usually other cards that don't run the risk of locking YOURSELF out of agency when a situation needs answers, so I'll use loot effects instead as my digging/drawing cards whenever possible unless I have synergy with brainstorm or enough ways out of the top 2 to matter.
@@jolteon345 but how would that change with any other 1 mana instant speed cantrip? Even if you dont know that those 3 cards dont help does not change the fact that you have nothing on top of your deck.
you know, i think many folks consistently forget just how brainstorm works and why its seen as amazing in 60 card decks.
it is not a draw a card and 'see' the next two cards in the deck, its draw '3' cards and put '2' cards from your hand back ontop of the library. these 2 cards can always be cards you had before the brainstorm draw.
that alone is going to change just how valuable the card is.
To contrast it with 'opt' which you can technically argue it being fractionally better then Brainstorm. you can choose to move a 'bad' card to the bottom, and draw the second. if its a good card you get to draw just it.
Brainstorm gives you info on the next 3 cards from your deck, then allows you to pick the worst 2 in your hand to put back ontop. Opt is better if those 3 cards are not as useful to you in the turns ahead, where Brainstorm is better if those cards would actually be useful to you. even in commander. Yes its more likely that Opt is better then Brainstorm in commander because the format is less consistent, that does not make Brainstorm bad or not almost an auto-include in 1/ 4 blue decks.
Lol. I feel you, Tomer. I play Kiki in my Norin deck and there's no hard combo. It's literally just for ETB value. I usually regret it cuz I end up looking too scary, but I don't care. I love him.
I wouldn't mind a follow up of cards you guys think are underrated on EDHrec and should be in more decks, maybe not auto-include per se, but fulfills a lot of roles.
Stuff like Teferi’s Ageless Insight go best in decks which use Monarch so you can trigger them without needing a draw spell, even tho you’d still run those too.
In a pinch, Cyc Rift is also a good temporary answer to a single target - e.g. a problematic enchantment or a really costly creature.
I feel like they helped prove Tomer's point about Urborg with their argument, and I had no opinion about it. "It slightly helps with this or that, and you can fix bad cards it if you add this or some other cards" aren't compelling imo. I'm not building like 5% of my deck around a land to fix my mana base, that can just be removed (which it easily can in my playgroup at least).
This is very true many commander have almost all cards listed as just regular staples
Brainstorm is also good against discard effects when you want to keep something