I would argue that the perception of kamigawa being a weak set is due to all of the set’s mechanics and tribes being pretty weak. There are certainly strong individual cards, as these lists have shown, but when one thinks of Kamigawa they think of bushido, and splice onto arcane, and Epic, and samurai, and it all paints a picture of mediocrity until you look deeper and find the strong hate and combo cards.
Honestly, I think splice onto arcane is sweet, and if the new kamigawa set introduces just a few decent new arcane cards- I bet it’ll break the mechanic.
Don't forget spirits, a bad (at the time) 5 color tribe with an awful tribal mechanic, and a lot of them were linked to the arcane mechanic in complicated but not very good ways. Or the gods of the plane being just... all entirely unplayable massively costed creatures you couldn't cheat into play. Also Ogres and Demons, a tribe that didn't get better if you played into the tribal mechanics, they just... Didn't actively harm you anymore. I love the set, there are amazing cards, great themes and art, and a lot of really good ideas but... yeah, it had tons of issues.
That's part of the reason why it didn't seem like a good set when it came out - nothing was really worth playing in Standard alongside Mirrodin and later Ravnica. A lot of these cards are only good in the absolute largest of formats, and those formats weren't as big of a deal when the set came out as they are now. Also, a lot of the cards' power are specifically in relation to one other card and/or deck. Azusa is really only good enough with the bounce lands and Amulet. Forbidden Orchard is mostly only good with Oath. Kiki-Jiki is only good with things that can rest him.
Kiki Jiki WAS played in standard, he was part of Tooth and Nail decks during Mirroden/Kamigawa 8th edition/9th edition standard. It didn't top 8 the major events, but it was part of the PTQ, Unofficial, Regionals, and States metas. Kiki + Sundering Titan, Duplicant, or Darksteel was a pretty good play.
Kamigawa is where I joined Magic. As such, I have some biased love for the set. They might not be particularly powerful, but I really enjoyed the spirit tribal and the splice/arcane mechanics.
Hey, my first preconstructed deck was on betrayers of kamigawa, so even though I started MTG on Mirrodin, Kamigawa will always be my favorite setting, and I am glad to see you share the sentiment that it clearly has too harsh of a reputation, also can't wait to see what neon dynasty will look like BTW, kiki jikki is also played in modern goblin with conspicuous snoop for infinite tokens
I think Kamigawa's reputation for being weak comes, at least partly, from the fact that all the block's mechanics were bad. All the good Kamigawa cards were generically powerful- Umezawa's Jitte, Sensei's Diving Top, Gifts Ungiven- while Ninjutsu, Bushido, Splice/Arcane, 5-color Spirit tribal, etc. were all garbage. Good cards that involved a set mechanic (Through the Breach, Ink-Eyes, etc) saw play based on their standalone power rather than as part of the archetype they nominally belonged to.
Ninjitsu was actually fine compared to the other mechanics (deep hours even sees play). Bushido on its own isn’t impressive because you know, rampage’s cousin, but they also would not allow you to have any well costed/stated bushido cards. Same with how badly spirits were costed. Of course like you say, it’s hard to play decent/weak mechanic against affinity who does no give a shit about any of that. Just play your artifact lands, play free spells and just collect free wins. What a fucking concept, thanks MaRo.
I think it would be cool to have some honorable mentions in those set-top10 videos where you take a look at cards that didn't get a high score but are powerful anyways (like staples in commander [Kodama's reach] or pauper [Ninja of the Deep Hours])
Nizzahon: I have a video idea for you, not unlike a Top 10. Do a *ranking* of the 10 MTG 2-color identities. How does each 2-color combination score using your methodology? If a deck uses more than 2 colors in any way, exclude it. *Strictly* 2 color. Almost 4 years past the 25th Anniversary of the game, we've got Ravnica, Shadowmoor, Tarkir (Fate Reforged), Theros, Innistrad... We've got a ton of material to explore. :-)
I love how it almost looks like Kiki is pointing at the other card in the combo that should be banned. he's like the kid that does something bad and then blames someone else for it.
Through the Breach and Goryo's are also played in a deck with a Ritual that's an Arcane spell, meaning that deck is probably the second most Arcane deck in the history of Constructed. (The most is Ghost Dad, a Spirits/Arcane deck from Ravnica Standard.)
Moonfolk tribal is one of the coolest tribal decks in magic's history. Bad as it may be in constructed, it's an absolute blast in Commander Patron of the Moon decks. I'd love to see some futuristic moonfolk in neon dynasty
Azusa did see play when she was printed! Heartbeat of Spring was a combo deck in Standard during that time. You used Azusa to ramp into the mana you needed for a insanely big Maga and then win the game on the spot.
The trouble is that most of the powerful ones really needed an eternal-format cardpool to exploit them properly. In part it's the fault of Kamigawa as a block (all the synergy was for shit mechanics, so the good cards didn't have any support) but also a lot of the combos that ended up being enabled by Kamigawa cards would have been way too strong for Standard anyway. And of course, people talk about Mirrodin's oppressive power level, but the other side to that is that Mirrodin didn't really support any of the things that Kamigawa was doing, so you couldn't even slip some Mirrodin cards into a Kamigawa archetype or vice versa in order to get a strong deck.
Like, I knew these cards were all from Kamigawa and that a lot of them were busted combo or value pieces in Modern, but I totally did not put those two together. Jeepers, that’s bonkers Shame about Gifts Ungiven… I love the art and the card name. Such an atmospheric piece
Apparently Saviors fucked it up. I mean I wasn't playing during Kamigawa as I was like 4 when it came out, so everything I'm talking about comes from the old TCGPlayer video, but apparently Savoirs was filled with crappy sweep and hand-size matters cards that just made everyone stop playing when they came out.
People who think Kamigawa is a weak block should play the block along side any block that came after it. It's kinda bonkers. Kamigawa has flaws that Mirrodin didn't fill (every block has a few holes, which is usually why Standard is better as the two years usually address the issues). The biggest is the lack of good dual lands for quicker multicolor decks. Kamigawa cards tend to like being in multi-color decks, so they just couldn't even get off the ground with Mirrodin which was particularly good at punishing that. Kamigawa always likes cheap ETB creatures and uses to return lands to hand, which is by far more common in sets post Kamigawa than pre.
I miss Sensei's Divining Top so much. CounterTop was the biggest reason I wanted to get into legacy before I found out how much the format costs. Now it's only in vintage, so completely inaccessible to me but man those were some good memories.
Kamigawa is just one of my absolute favorite sets and people give it way too much crap because of the Affinity decks dominating everything and because of how bad Savior’s limited was. The block overall has aged like a fine wine with great flavour and cool cards for commander
Kamigawa as a whole wasn't a weak block at all. The set mechanics were and that has always made people underrate it in spite of the all stars that were first printed there.
Splice was intentionally kept at a lower power level because the hand is something that isnt easily interacted with, and it had the potential to simply be unanswerable value, which coming off the heels of Mirrodin, they were not wanting - like Masques, Kamigawa had the unenviable task of stopping a Combo Winter, basically.
Champions of Kamigawa is the set that got me to Magic Online back in the day. I have fond memories of winning drafts using Umezawa's Jitte. And annoying memories of losing drafts to Umezawa's Jitte ... it's definitely the right #1 on your list ua-cam.com/video/UU9qcA6d350/v-deo.html
It's interesting that Azusa doesn't have any points from her Core 2021 printing, especially in historic. Maybe in the future? I guess there isn't really a turbo-lands deck in that format.
I'm glad that people are defending Kamigawa, from the old TCGPlayer video to now you. The problem was Mirridon. Although I have no experience with Kamigawa as a standard format, I mean I was fucking 3 when it came out, I've definitely played a *lot* of Kamigawa cards, since one of my favourite decks is an EDH Soulshift deck. I somehow doubt it, but I hope that at least one Kamigawa card makes it onto the glorious "Top 10 Vintage Cards (Minus Power 9)"!
I would argue the issue wasn't JUST mirroden, but also the 3rd set problem magic used to have. (Where the last set usually felt far lessee than the 2 before it) While I will argue it was less powerful then mirroden before it, that's more an issue with mirroden. Also, I argue Rav block is one of the first to not get completely screwed by magics third set problem, hence why it is more fondly remembered
The issue with Kamigawa wasn't so much bad mechanics (there is truly no such thing), only extremely bad/overly cautious implementation. Splice could be an incredibly strong effect, but they didn't print much worth doing with it, so it is the butt of jokes. I will say Bushido is actually a terrible ability in actual practice for competitive play, because it also slows games down by having creatures that are badly overcosted when dealing combat damage to players, the things you generally are trying to do, yet can trade up sometimes, especially in the weak meta of Kamigawa. It's a bomb in casual though, where people love a slugfest. The Soulshift mechanic might be the worst idea of all, but if you print the right creatures it could still be fun (IE have deathtouch weenies to soulshift back when your midrange bruiser gets nuked instead of 'get back a garbage creature when your garbage creature dies. Go play better cards idiot!' effect) and powerful.
I love how Body of Jukai is often a worse card than Force of Nature, a famously 'not good enough' card from Alpha that consistently lost to flyers, because Green if you go back and check wasn't especially 'good at creatures', it usually lost to other creatures because it usually lost and people tended to win with creatures. Craw Wurm is probably a bit worse than Night Soil Kami, but Body will still trade with Force after a Giant Growth, despite costing more mana and having bad text as well. Also impressive, Burr Grafter can be 4 mana (!) for a worse Giant Growth, which is assuredly not where you want to be in a MtG game.
oops my bad, the jitte was so searing in my casual group that i just forever associate jitte with "kamigawa" regardless of the specific set. (we had a limited draft where someone got it as first pick and then again as second pick in the same round, and we didn't re-draft rares afterwards at the time so they had decks that blew us out for a while)
Probably true. Mercadian Masques block was intentionally made underpowered after the lunacy of Urza's block (and the design team getting chewed out by WOTC brass). I also believe that Ixalan was dialed back a bit given how strong Eldritch Moon and Kaladesh were. And of course, sets like Zendikar Rising and AFR are weaker on purpose than the absurd sets like War of the Spark, M20, Eldraine and Ikoria.
@@NizzahonMagic It has strong cards in eternal formats but none of them really made a significant dent in Standard (of your top 10 only 4 have *any* points in Standard, and not even Top manages double figures). Other than a few generically powerful cards in the small expansions - here I'm mainly thinking of Umezawa's Jitte - I think this shows that the powerful cards in Kamigawa are combo-deck roleplayers that need a bigger cardpool to unlock their power. The rest of the set is decidedly unimpressive, in part because all of the intended synergies don't really work.
It was a great mechanic but printed in a depowered set. Like look at the alternate cost splice cycle they intentionally made almost unplayable. Because they were seeing how far they could go with something before it was garbage. (The green one literally gave creature rampage of some joke of a shit) The problem being is if they broadened it from the parasitic it would be REALLY strong as it’s basically buyback with more steps. They do however have the templating for it from evermind
maro has been on record that he realized it should have been splice onto instant shortly before they finished the set. but it was too late to change, had the chance of being broken.
While I do somewhat agree that Kamigawa is somewhat mischaracterized as the worst block in the history of the game, you do have to understand how silly games got when the Top was doing rounds. Imagine people taking minutes every single turn just for Top shenanigans, endlessly. Randy Buehler considers the Top his biggest mistake as the head of R&D for a good reason, the card is absurdly powerful but makes the games just feel awful to play
@@NizzahonMagic I understand your point, and Champions, while having the single biggest problem of the block, probably had the least problems as a set :D
It's annoying how everyone is forgeting about Competitive Commander tournments. They exists, there are various types of it, and they also give points to players. Please, give it more views.
@@NizzahonMagic I did and its very good. I personally use asuna, groyos, Kiki and through the breach. I shouldn't have used the word useless I should've said overshadowed or underpowered to mirrodin.
Kamigawa should be a cautionary tale among would-be MtG designers. A badly designed set not only self-sabotages itself but also tends to ruin relatively good ones if they overlap in any meaningful way.
I would not call Kamigawa underreated. It has some good cards, especially in Commander, because of the Legends theme. It love it, but I admit most cards cost at least 1 mana more than what they are worth.
The cards in this video don't cost one mana too many. It is definitely underrated with you saying that sort of thing about it! The set has bad cards for sure, more than most, but the set is loaded with cards that have been important for more than a decade.
I can't believe how insanely expensive some of these cards are. They printed the SHIT out of Kamigawa and we're looking at $6 commons and $70 uncommon tops? How the fuck is anyone supposed to afford to play this game.
Top was banned, because people didn’t know how to use it properly… Yes, it was a little slow, but anyone who was adept at playing with it wouldn’t make games last unnecessarily long.
@@idlemindedmage6925 Some yes. There are those games. There are those games in Limited. I’m just saying that if everyone who played Top knew how to play Top, games would not have been UNNECESSARILY long.
Underrated is not the word that I would use (I will concede, that my disdain for this block, precludes impartiality). Kamigawa was pathetically bad with only a handful of playable cards, and some more that are niche playable at best. Aside from Top, Gifts, and Jitte the block was just outclassed throughout its time in standard. Needle was a good sideboard card, but otherwise, Kamigawa was a waste of cardboard for the most part, IMHO. (Let me reiterate that I am very biased, but that block has always been underwhelming in my opinion). Kamigawa is like Masques block, a godawful block that came out after a good block. Wizards has a tendency to make weak and mediocre blocks after they make good blocks. Mirroden and Saga were great blocks, and wizards didn’t want to make anything that would impact standard when good blocks were in standard. They didn’t want to make the strong decks even stronger, so they made garbage blocks like Masques and Kamigawa, to prevent any impact on standard. It makes sense when you think about it, but Masques and Kamigawa were purposefully made weak and lousy, because Saga and Mirroden were both so great.
I mean it was a block sandwiched between a busted block and a very powerful multicolored block so its chance at being high on playable cards would require it to have cards more busted than Morrodin block or have monocolor spells that were more powerful than Ravinica's gold spells which especially in older design philosophy would have been odd.
@@TheEvolver311 that is my point. It makes sense that they would make a mediocre block after a good block like Mirroden. Same with Masques. Masques was crap too, very much in the vein of Kamigawa. Masques had misdirection and port, and wishes, but otherwise, not much, because Saga was so good. The thing about masques and Kamigawa is that they both paled in comparison to the block that preceded and succeeded them. The true sign of a lousy block (but, again, WotC had a good reason to do it, because they didn’t want to break standard more, so they made crap. That is the same philosophy that produced Archangel’s Light, a waste of cardboard at mythic)
Its badness is overstated but yea was bad. I think the biggest problem is that all of its hallmark mechanics were parasitic and severely underpowered. I think the only block mechanic that features on this list was Arcane, and it's near completely incidental. Like if you have a block that feature Samurai as a core mechanic and they all suck the block is kinda awful. But compare Champions to like Born of the Gods, and its clearly superior in how many cards are eternal playable. Some of the cards on this list are busted, ie banned.
@@SephonDK like I said, I am biased, but I disliked this block when I was a kid, and it is hard for me to change my opinion. And I feel that my analysis is on some firm ground. But you have a point…. The banning of Kamigawa cards like jitte and top are not clear evidence for the block as a whole being good, though. Jitte was banned for power, I will grant you, but top was mostly banned for slowing down games and making magic miserable, not unlike Shahrazad and divine intervention. Not a power level banning, but a player experience banning.
Kamigawa is not "underrated" it's just weak (don't want to sound brutal, but it's almost Homelands-tier weak) Thing is the block immediately before (Mirrodin) was so absurdly broken Wizards just didn't want to print anything actually powerful...for at least a whole year...(back in the day there weren't "Master Sets" or anything of the like to alleviate power creep concerns)
It isn't weak, as this video shows. There are bad cards for sure, but Champions is actually a far above average set in terms of cards that have made an impact in competitive Magic. Saviors is pretty bad, and Betrayers only a bit better, but when looked at in the long term, Champions just isn't weak if you look at the evidence. I did a video on Homelands, go ahead and compare the two and you will see they are miles apart!
Champions was a weak as hell set intentionally because mirrodin block was so overpowered. Betrayers and saviors were honestly worse then champions though. Do this list for betrayers and saviors
I hate all the real world inspired sets. I don't care how good individual cards are, the overall feeling is horrible. If you are not going to use the actual culture, then why bother? It always comes across as lame.
Speaking of good Gifts Ungiven plays, Rhystic Studies did a video recently about a really cool play using a quirk of the rules.
Yeah and judging from 8:15 this exact type of play has caught on after that.
I would argue that the perception of kamigawa being a weak set is due to all of the set’s mechanics and tribes being pretty weak. There are certainly strong individual cards, as these lists have shown, but when one thinks of Kamigawa they think of bushido, and splice onto arcane, and Epic, and samurai, and it all paints a picture of mediocrity until you look deeper and find the strong hate and combo cards.
Yep. It's also a block with powerful cards whose influence is relatively skewed towards non-rotating formats.
And the set came right after Mirrodin. Going from affinity to bushido was a pretty big leap
Don't forget Soulshift, a worse version of the mercenary mechanic.
Honestly, I think splice onto arcane is sweet, and if the new kamigawa set introduces just a few decent new arcane cards- I bet it’ll break the mechanic.
Don't forget spirits, a bad (at the time) 5 color tribe with an awful tribal mechanic, and a lot of them were linked to the arcane mechanic in complicated but not very good ways. Or the gods of the plane being just... all entirely unplayable massively costed creatures you couldn't cheat into play. Also Ogres and Demons, a tribe that didn't get better if you played into the tribal mechanics, they just... Didn't actively harm you anymore.
I love the set, there are amazing cards, great themes and art, and a lot of really good ideas but... yeah, it had tons of issues.
This is the first set I have seen where all 10 cards are still actively gaining points. No standard only, metagame Allstars. Just good cards
That's part of the reason why it didn't seem like a good set when it came out - nothing was really worth playing in Standard alongside Mirrodin and later Ravnica. A lot of these cards are only good in the absolute largest of formats, and those formats weren't as big of a deal when the set came out as they are now. Also, a lot of the cards' power are specifically in relation to one other card and/or deck. Azusa is really only good enough with the bounce lands and Amulet. Forbidden Orchard is mostly only good with Oath. Kiki-Jiki is only good with things that can rest him.
Kiki Jiki WAS played in standard, he was part of Tooth and Nail decks during Mirroden/Kamigawa 8th edition/9th edition standard. It didn't top 8 the major events, but it was part of the PTQ, Unofficial, Regionals, and States metas. Kiki + Sundering Titan, Duplicant, or Darksteel was a pretty good play.
First? =)
"The first place will make your head spin" and "it will continue on top" are just the cherry over the cake. Great job, Nizza :D
Second?
Kamigawa is where I joined Magic. As such, I have some biased love for the set. They might not be particularly powerful, but I really enjoyed the spirit tribal and the splice/arcane mechanics.
honestly was a little bummed when neon dynasty didnt try to use splice in some capacity
Hey, my first preconstructed deck was on betrayers of kamigawa, so even though I started MTG on Mirrodin, Kamigawa will always be my favorite setting, and I am glad to see you share the sentiment that it clearly has too harsh of a reputation, also can't wait to see what neon dynasty will look like
BTW, kiki jikki is also played in modern goblin with conspicuous snoop for infinite tokens
I love kiki jiki. Not just for the infinite combos but for the fact that on any boardstate that’s decent he represents an extremely potent threat
All the legendary goblins in this block had very fun names.
I was so immersed with this set that I even have the novels. The lore was great. I was purchasing all the books up until they abandoned it😢
After learning all the kamigawa lore recently i agree the lore is fucking epic
You and me both, so sad they don't still have the novels.
Me too (even though i had to get them 15 years later)
I'm rereading Toshis adventures in time for the new set.
I think Kamigawa's reputation for being weak comes, at least partly, from the fact that all the block's mechanics were bad. All the good Kamigawa cards were generically powerful- Umezawa's Jitte, Sensei's Diving Top, Gifts Ungiven- while Ninjutsu, Bushido, Splice/Arcane, 5-color Spirit tribal, etc. were all garbage. Good cards that involved a set mechanic (Through the Breach, Ink-Eyes, etc) saw play based on their standalone power rather than as part of the archetype they nominally belonged to.
It didn't help that is was sandwiched between Mirrodin and Ravnica, two pretty powerful sets.
Ninjitsu was actually fine compared to the other mechanics (deep hours even sees play). Bushido on its own isn’t impressive because you know, rampage’s cousin, but they also would not allow you to have any well costed/stated bushido cards. Same with how badly spirits were costed.
Of course like you say, it’s hard to play decent/weak mechanic against affinity who does no give a shit about any of that. Just play your artifact lands, play free spells and just collect free wins. What a fucking concept, thanks MaRo.
It was also just a... weird limited environment from what I've heard.
This was the block that got me back into Magic for several years.
Still have Jitte flashbacks
Same!
This was the block that first got me into magic lore
I think it would be cool to have some honorable mentions in those set-top10 videos where you take a look at cards that didn't get a high score but are powerful anyways (like staples in commander [Kodama's reach] or pauper [Ninja of the Deep Hours])
Ninja of the Deep Hours isn't in Champions of Kamigawa.
Nizzahon: I have a video idea for you, not unlike a Top 10. Do a *ranking* of the 10 MTG 2-color identities. How does each 2-color combination score using your methodology? If a deck uses more than 2 colors in any way, exclude it. *Strictly* 2 color. Almost 4 years past the 25th Anniversary of the game, we've got Ravnica, Shadowmoor, Tarkir (Fate Reforged), Theros, Innistrad... We've got a ton of material to explore. :-)
This sounds like an amazing idea
I love how it almost looks like Kiki is pointing at the other card in the combo that should be banned. he's like the kid that does something bad and then blames someone else for it.
And he has managed not to get banned, so it worked!
Through the Breach and Goryo's are also played in a deck with a Ritual that's an Arcane spell, meaning that deck is probably the second most Arcane deck in the history of Constructed.
(The most is Ghost Dad, a Spirits/Arcane deck from Ravnica Standard.)
I really wish they'd print a version of Gifts that exiles the two chosen cards; I'd be curious to see if it still did anything.
Nizzahon-san, Thank you for uploading amazing videos as always. I'm glad to know you're recovering a cold. Stay safe.
Kamigawa was such a blast in limited at the time!
Moonfolk tribal is one of the coolest tribal decks in magic's history. Bad as it may be in constructed, it's an absolute blast in Commander Patron of the Moon decks. I'd love to see some futuristic moonfolk in neon dynasty
Even if the old gimmick doesn't show up in the set, here's to hoping the classic mold appears in the inevitable Commander tie-ins.
The moonfolk get massacred by oni and orochi in the lore, so they might not be around
Azusa did see play when she was printed!
Heartbeat of Spring was a combo deck in Standard during that time. You used Azusa to ramp into the mana you needed for a insanely big Maga and then win the game on the spot.
She may have been played I guess, but she wasn't actually IN the Heartbeat decks that Top 8'd the kinds of events that result in points.
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
Ahhh yes, Boseiju, Who Shelters Show and Tell. I remember it well.
When I saw Azusa at #10 I knew this was going to be a great list.
I wonder which of the cards in the set will be on TOP?
Ask your Sensei
It is hard to divine. I keep divining for the answer, to no avail.
@@jenniferwilliams9612 have you tried paying one?
Top on top. As it is in your deck, so too is it on this list.
I started playing magic with kamigawa block. Man those were the good old days.
One of my favorite decks I've ever played was standard tooth and nail using kiki-jiki
So many cards from Kamigawa aged well, they just couldn't shine in Standard and Limited at the time.
The trouble is that most of the powerful ones really needed an eternal-format cardpool to exploit them properly. In part it's the fault of Kamigawa as a block (all the synergy was for shit mechanics, so the good cards didn't have any support) but also a lot of the combos that ended up being enabled by Kamigawa cards would have been way too strong for Standard anyway.
And of course, people talk about Mirrodin's oppressive power level, but the other side to that is that Mirrodin didn't really support any of the things that Kamigawa was doing, so you couldn't even slip some Mirrodin cards into a Kamigawa archetype or vice versa in order to get a strong deck.
Like, I knew these cards were all from Kamigawa and that a lot of them were busted combo or value pieces in Modern, but I totally did not put those two together. Jeepers, that’s bonkers
Shame about Gifts Ungiven… I love the art and the card name. Such an atmospheric piece
All I could think of when #1 was on screen, and how you were saying it slowed games down was "Well... in response, I top". :)
Kamigawa is my 2nd favorite block. I'm super excited that we're going back, but I'm a little disappointed that it's so far in the future.
It's funny how most of those cards are combo enablers/supporters
Triple Champions is still held up as one of the best draft formats in the game's history.
Ah the good ol days of triple one set then all 3
It was fun. There was that rogue mill deck though and in the land of four mana 1/1 flyers mill can win.
What would be your top 5, if you don't mind me asking?
@@avatar2xl I remember winning with that deck splice onto arcane mill
Apparently Saviors fucked it up. I mean I wasn't playing during Kamigawa as I was like 4 when it came out, so everything I'm talking about comes from the old TCGPlayer video, but apparently Savoirs was filled with crappy sweep and hand-size matters cards that just made everyone stop playing when they came out.
People who think Kamigawa is a weak block should play the block along side any block that came after it. It's kinda bonkers. Kamigawa has flaws that Mirrodin didn't fill (every block has a few holes, which is usually why Standard is better as the two years usually address the issues). The biggest is the lack of good dual lands for quicker multicolor decks. Kamigawa cards tend to like being in multi-color decks, so they just couldn't even get off the ground with Mirrodin which was particularly good at punishing that. Kamigawa always likes cheap ETB creatures and uses to return lands to hand, which is by far more common in sets post Kamigawa than pre.
I miss Sensei's Divining Top so much. CounterTop was the biggest reason I wanted to get into legacy before I found out how much the format costs. Now it's only in vintage, so completely inaccessible to me but man those were some good memories.
Don't forget that Lava Spike also provides a cheap vehicle for splicing your other Arcane spells
That never comes up in the decks it is played in, or I would have mentioned it!
Until Murder was printed one of the best targeted removal spells was Rend Flesh, because who plays Spirits.
Kamigawa is my favourite plane. Almost all my favourite cards come from there.
Rat samurai is an inspired idea.
Kamigawa is just one of my absolute favorite sets and people give it way too much crap because of the Affinity decks dominating everything and because of how bad Savior’s limited was. The block overall has aged like a fine wine with great flavour and cool cards for commander
Too bad most of the samurai are trash
Kamigawa as a whole wasn't a weak block at all. The set mechanics were and that has always made people underrate it in spite of the all stars that were first printed there.
I can’t believe I haven’t realized gifts ungiven was printed in this set lol that’s actually crazy
I was thinking Meloku would have been on this list, but after seeing the actual list I totally see why it's not.
Splice was intentionally kept at a lower power level because the hand is something that isnt easily interacted with, and it had the potential to simply be unanswerable value, which coming off the heels of Mirrodin, they were not wanting - like Masques, Kamigawa had the unenviable task of stopping a Combo Winter, basically.
What time zone are you in cause for me it was 1am when this was posted lol
Can't wait for the urza's saga top ten ;)
Champions of Kamigawa is the set that got me to Magic Online back in the day. I have fond memories of winning drafts using Umezawa's Jitte. And annoying memories of losing drafts to Umezawa's Jitte ... it's definitely the right #1 on your list ua-cam.com/video/UU9qcA6d350/v-deo.html
I like how the top two are a common and an uncommon.
It's interesting that Azusa doesn't have any points from her Core 2021 printing, especially in historic. Maybe in the future? I guess there isn't really a turbo-lands deck in that format.
Its just like she doesn't have any points at all until Amulet Titan was a thing. It takes a very particular deck to make her worthwhile.
Number one’s total definitely made my head spin like a top😝
It's Friday and you know what that means... Hell yeah
kamigawa was the middle child between mirrodin and ravnica
I'm glad that people are defending Kamigawa, from the old TCGPlayer video to now you. The problem was Mirridon. Although I have no experience with Kamigawa as a standard format, I mean I was fucking 3 when it came out, I've definitely played a *lot* of Kamigawa cards, since one of my favourite decks is an EDH Soulshift deck. I somehow doubt it, but I hope that at least one Kamigawa card makes it onto the glorious "Top 10 Vintage Cards (Minus Power 9)"!
I would argue the issue wasn't JUST mirroden, but also the 3rd set problem magic used to have. (Where the last set usually felt far lessee than the 2 before it)
While I will argue it was less powerful then mirroden before it, that's more an issue with mirroden.
Also, I argue Rav block is one of the first to not get completely screwed by magics third set problem, hence why it is more fondly remembered
not a incredibly weak set when looking at all formats but the set in standard was very weak especially after the set that came before.
I've been so traumatized by that top, I forgot it existed.
来自中国的粉丝 =D
You put the Top on top.
The issue with Kamigawa wasn't so much bad mechanics (there is truly no such thing), only extremely bad/overly cautious implementation. Splice could be an incredibly strong effect, but they didn't print much worth doing with it, so it is the butt of jokes. I will say Bushido is actually a terrible ability in actual practice for competitive play, because it also slows games down by having creatures that are badly overcosted when dealing combat damage to players, the things you generally are trying to do, yet can trade up sometimes, especially in the weak meta of Kamigawa. It's a bomb in casual though, where people love a slugfest. The Soulshift mechanic might be the worst idea of all, but if you print the right creatures it could still be fun (IE have deathtouch weenies to soulshift back when your midrange bruiser gets nuked instead of 'get back a garbage creature when your garbage creature dies. Go play better cards idiot!' effect) and powerful.
I love how Body of Jukai is often a worse card than Force of Nature, a famously 'not good enough' card from Alpha that consistently lost to flyers, because Green if you go back and check wasn't especially 'good at creatures', it usually lost to other creatures because it usually lost and people tended to win with creatures. Craw Wurm is probably a bit worse than Night Soil Kami, but Body will still trade with Force after a Giant Growth, despite costing more mana and having bad text as well. Also impressive, Burr Grafter can be 4 mana (!) for a worse Giant Growth, which is assuredly not where you want to be in a MtG game.
really surprised jitte isn't on here - i thought it saw decent play even now?
It isn't in Champions. Watch the Betrayers list.
oops my bad, the jitte was so searing in my casual group that i just forever associate jitte with "kamigawa" regardless of the specific set. (we had a limited draft where someone got it as first pick and then again as second pick in the same round, and we didn't re-draft rares afterwards at the time so they had decks that blew us out for a while)
Start at 2:28. You're welcome.
The Kamigawa blocks was the best made in mtg 100%
Goryo’s Vengeance?
It's from Betrayers of Kamigawa not Champions of Kamigawa
@@Derret134 ahhhh fair fair
The most impressive thing about Kamigawa is that in 20 years people didn't learn to pronounce it correctly.
I remember hearing a rumor that Kamigawa was intentionally made underpowered since Mirrordin had been so over powered
Probably true. Mercadian Masques block was intentionally made underpowered after the lunacy of Urza's block (and the design team getting chewed out by WOTC brass). I also believe that Ixalan was dialed back a bit given how strong Eldritch Moon and Kaladesh were. And of course, sets like Zendikar Rising and AFR are weaker on purpose than the absurd sets like War of the Spark, M20, Eldraine and Ikoria.
As this video showed, Kamigawa wasn't really underpowered.
@@NizzahonMagic It has strong cards in eternal formats but none of them really made a significant dent in Standard (of your top 10 only 4 have *any* points in Standard, and not even Top manages double figures). Other than a few generically powerful cards in the small expansions - here I'm mainly thinking of Umezawa's Jitte - I think this shows that the powerful cards in Kamigawa are combo-deck roleplayers that need a bigger cardpool to unlock their power. The rest of the set is decidedly unimpressive, in part because all of the intended synergies don't really work.
I wanted to like the splice mechanic but they implemented it so horribly.
It was a great mechanic but printed in a depowered set.
Like look at the alternate cost splice cycle they intentionally made almost unplayable. Because they were seeing how far they could go with something before it was garbage. (The green one literally gave creature rampage of some joke of a shit)
The problem being is if they broadened it from the parasitic it would be REALLY strong as it’s basically buyback with more steps. They do however have the templating for it from evermind
maro has been on record that he realized it should have been splice onto instant shortly before they finished the set. but it was too late to change, had the chance of being broken.
Kamions of Champigawa
Bring back Zuberas imo
I like the East Asian/Japanese inspired basic lands
I bought a damaged azusa... turns out someone proxied blood moon on the back. Best split card ever🤣🤣🤣
While I do somewhat agree that Kamigawa is somewhat mischaracterized as the worst block in the history of the game, you do have to understand how silly games got when the Top was doing rounds. Imagine people taking minutes every single turn just for Top shenanigans, endlessly. Randy Buehler considers the Top his biggest mistake as the head of R&D for a good reason, the card is absurdly powerful but makes the games just feel awful to play
I don't disagree with Top being a problem. I disagree with the idea the set is weak.
@@NizzahonMagic I understand your point, and Champions, while having the single biggest problem of the block, probably had the least problems as a set :D
in glimpse of nature's competitive stats, it says forst tier insted of first tier, was this intentional?
Hehe...wonder what's gonna top, this list
It's annoying how everyone is forgeting about Competitive Commander tournments. They exists, there are various types of it, and they also give points to players. Please, give it more views.
The problem with the kamigawa block was it was completely useless compared to the mirrodin block.
Did you even watch the video? Lots of useful cards, and this is just the top 10!
@@NizzahonMagic I did and its very good. I personally use asuna, groyos, Kiki and through the breach. I shouldn't have used the word useless I should've said overshadowed or underpowered to mirrodin.
💜⚡
Kamigawa should be a cautionary tale among would-be MtG designers. A badly designed set not only self-sabotages itself but also tends to ruin relatively good ones if they overlap in any meaningful way.
I would not call Kamigawa underreated. It has some good cards, especially in Commander, because of the Legends theme. It love it, but I admit most cards cost at least 1 mana more than what they are worth.
The cards in this video don't cost one mana too many. It is definitely underrated with you saying that sort of thing about it! The set has bad cards for sure, more than most, but the set is loaded with cards that have been important for more than a decade.
ARMAGEDDON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
top is 70 bucks?!
holy fuck i have a couple of them lying around
The tone of that statement perfectly syncs with your profile pic lol
You sound just fine :)
Anyone else remember calling Kamigawa COK BLOCK??? 😆😅🤣
I can't believe how insanely expensive some of these cards are. They printed the SHIT out of Kamigawa and we're looking at $6 commons and $70 uncommon tops? How the fuck is anyone supposed to afford to play this game.
Please content creators, learn how to pronounce romanized Japanese vowels. There's nothing unusual about it. Be like your naive neighbor.
Thank you, this was bothering me too
Gifts doesn’t allow you to not choose 4 cards
Yes, it does. I didn't make it up.
Top was banned, because people didn’t know how to use it properly… Yes, it was a little slow, but anyone who was adept at playing with it wouldn’t make games last unnecessarily long.
I dunno, I saw some pros in top-miracles still go to time in legacy.
@@idlemindedmage6925 Some yes. There are those games. There are those games in Limited. I’m just saying that if everyone who played Top knew how to play Top, games would not have been UNNECESSARILY long.
@@crawdaddy1234 very valid point.
Man those glasses are still foggy AF. I dont know how you can see with those.
Kamigawa block is one of my favorite blocks ever I mean I can't hate it if it has a card that has my name in it (Ben-Ben Akki hermit)
Sorry, but it's spelled fÖrst, not just forst in #3 spot on the list.
this is when i stopped playing
Ah yes, the forst tier. Thanks Glimpse of Nature
Underrated is not the word that I would use (I will concede, that my disdain for this block, precludes impartiality). Kamigawa was pathetically bad with only a handful of playable cards, and some more that are niche playable at best. Aside from Top, Gifts, and Jitte the block was just outclassed throughout its time in standard. Needle was a good sideboard card, but otherwise, Kamigawa was a waste of cardboard for the most part, IMHO. (Let me reiterate that I am very biased, but that block has always been underwhelming in my opinion).
Kamigawa is like Masques block, a godawful block that came out after a good block. Wizards has a tendency to make weak and mediocre blocks after they make good blocks. Mirroden and Saga were great blocks, and wizards didn’t want to make anything that would impact standard when good blocks were in standard. They didn’t want to make the strong decks even stronger, so they made garbage blocks like Masques and Kamigawa, to prevent any impact on standard. It makes sense when you think about it, but Masques and Kamigawa were purposefully made weak and lousy, because Saga and Mirroden were both so great.
I mean it was a block sandwiched between a busted block and a very powerful multicolored block so its chance at being high on playable cards would require it to have cards more busted than Morrodin block or have monocolor spells that were more powerful than Ravinica's gold spells which especially in older design philosophy would have been odd.
@@TheEvolver311 that is my point. It makes sense that they would make a mediocre block after a good block like Mirroden. Same with Masques. Masques was crap too, very much in the vein of Kamigawa. Masques had misdirection and port, and wishes, but otherwise, not much, because Saga was so good. The thing about masques and Kamigawa is that they both paled in comparison to the block that preceded and succeeded them. The true sign of a lousy block (but, again, WotC had a good reason to do it, because they didn’t want to break standard more, so they made crap. That is the same philosophy that produced Archangel’s Light, a waste of cardboard at mythic)
Its badness is overstated but yea was bad. I think the biggest problem is that all of its hallmark mechanics were parasitic and severely underpowered. I think the only block mechanic that features on this list was Arcane, and it's near completely incidental.
Like if you have a block that feature Samurai as a core mechanic and they all suck the block is kinda awful. But compare Champions to like Born of the Gods, and its clearly superior in how many cards are eternal playable. Some of the cards on this list are busted, ie banned.
@@SephonDK like I said, I am biased, but I disliked this block when I was a kid, and it is hard for me to change my opinion. And I feel that my analysis is on some firm ground. But you have a point…. The banning of Kamigawa cards like jitte and top are not clear evidence for the block as a whole being good, though. Jitte was banned for power, I will grant you, but top was mostly banned for slowing down games and making magic miserable, not unlike Shahrazad and divine intervention. Not a power level banning, but a player experience banning.
You're just categorically wrong about the set having "only a handful of playable cards." Did you even watch the video?
I used to have at least 10 playsets of senseis divining top back in the day...
Glimpse of deez nutz!
Kamigawa is not "underrated" it's just weak (don't want to sound brutal, but it's almost Homelands-tier weak)
Thing is the block immediately before (Mirrodin) was so absurdly broken Wizards just didn't want to print anything actually powerful...for at least a whole year...(back in the day there weren't "Master Sets" or anything of the like to alleviate power creep concerns)
It isn't weak, as this video shows. There are bad cards for sure, but Champions is actually a far above average set in terms of cards that have made an impact in competitive Magic. Saviors is pretty bad, and Betrayers only a bit better, but when looked at in the long term, Champions just isn't weak if you look at the evidence.
I did a video on Homelands, go ahead and compare the two and you will see they are miles apart!
It's not 1000 years in the future. Neon Dynasty is the present era. Champions was in the past.
1000 years in the future from the perspective of Champions.
Champions was a weak as hell set intentionally because mirrodin block was so overpowered.
Betrayers and saviors were honestly worse then champions though.
Do this list for betrayers and saviors
But he did for Saviors...? He even mentioned it in the video
I don't know how people are watching this video and still coming away with the idea that Champions of Kamigawa was a weak set.
Just because a set has individually powerful cards, doesn't make it good.
That's true, but people say that Kamigawa was weak, and that's definitely not true.
How is lava spike bad? You WANT to damage your opponent, cuz if he dies his creatures die with him. THINK for once 🤦♂️
I didn't say it was bad, just worse than Lightning Bolt. That is just a fact. Obviously it's on this list, so it isn't bad.
LISTEN for once.
I hate all the real world inspired sets. I don't care how good individual cards are, the overall feeling is horrible. If you are not going to use the actual culture, then why bother? It always comes across as lame.