Thanks for the good video. I feel like it's important to note that the very last video clip is what it looks like when retrieving your rope - NOT what it should look like when rappelling. That should be obvious to an experienced climber, but I could see a less experienced climber maybe being confused. Rappelling on the wrong strand in that setup is actually called falling - DANGER.
Just a note to viewers: being someone who has developed many routes in San Miguel de Allende MX, spending alot of time (and money) on installing anchor hardware, lowering yourself through the hardware puts unnecessary wear on that gear which takes time and money to replace, so PLEASE always descend using the blocking knot and fixed-rope method. It puts way less wear on the hardware.
We definitely used to have this methodology of thought. But now we just tell people to lower off as it takes less steps and make sure you give to your local bolt replacement funds. We would rather spend money on replacement than raise money for gravestones.
Excellent demo. The first method especially is often overlooked. This might be obvious, but the absolute number one rule of blocks is that it absolutely cannot have a chance of passing through your anchor. With large rings like this, tt might be better to do a carabiner block rather than a knot block. Other than that minor observation, nice technique, and I appreciate you keeping the video short and sweet.
I use the first method when I can walk to the top of the route to set a top rope anchor and don't want to walk back down. Super handy. I'm gonna use the second method so I can retrieve the rope too now.
The problem with backing up the GriGri is that it becomes unwieldy to operate. It is somewhat inherently backed up if you just let go. This is especially true when self lowering due to the weight of the rope below. At least what I have found from my experience.
Karsten, When lowering yourself using the first method here, what is going on at the bottom with the end of the rope? Do you remain on belay from your belayer or are you just eating up what’s left of the rope on the deck? Suppose this is where it is critical to have barrel knots at the ends of the rope as well? Congrats on your recent cert!
You are correct, the rope is just coming off the stack. I tell folks that “closing the system “ or having knots, is the default ; and we should only not have knots if we have a specific reason. Thanks for the congrats!
Definitely! The Alpine butterfly is a great knot for this. I usually just try to keep it simple for folks but really the ABF is a better application in many ways.
First method should be used with caution, alot of rope movement compared to a regular rappel so in saxon sandstone for example you shouldnt do it because youll cut the rock with the rope like that.
Hi Karsten, got this recommended :). Tbh, I dont see a situation where I would prefer this over repelling with reverso + third hand. I just feel like there is not enough backup with the grigri if I suddenly get hit by a stone and drop both hands, you could add a prusik tho. And a quick question: Whats your opinion on the texas rope trick if you cant finish a route? Usefull, or do you just leave a quickdraw carabiner or a quicklink?
Shouldn't one use an prusik or some other redundancy when rappelling? As much as I trust my grigri, just descending on a grigri alone seems mighty risky to me.
With most anchors these days it should be fine with either. The self lower will likely be more efficient as it feed rope as you go down. The rappel can work well if there is a core shot in one side of your rope.
You can pull the rope from the opposite side. This tool is useful if you have something wrong like a core shot in the other strand of rope but still need to get down. Or if you just want to rappel and not self lower.
@@howtoclimb ok I tested this successfully on the wall today. Lowering is a bit slow but good. I say rappelling with gri gri is perfectly fine since I have seen it in action. Do you find it preferably to a manual atc?
@@bboyorc I do like using it when on a single strand or have the possibility of needing to ascend the rope. But I don’t always have one on me so really it depends.
That is a great question! Maybe because one side of the rope has been cut. Or maybe because the anchor doesn’t allow for rope to be moving through it weighted. Like metolius rap hangers.
Maaaan, save those rings and use reverso or anything. Someone will do that 500 times from that ring and 501 will cut the metal. But thanks for showing this just in case someone will forget the atc or reverso or does not feel comfortable using bare carabiner with a knot.
It is actually less wear than when someone else lowers you since it is only half the weight. In the New River , lowering is common practice. But the second technique does take care of this if one is worried about the wear.
@@howtoclimb I just moved up to Michigan any secret spots you can throw my way also if you ever need a filmer or some help with filming I’m always down to get out
I'm wondering what the difference between the 2 techniques is? The first one seems easier to set up but I don't know its limitations. Also, do you use a prusik or autoblock with these?
I'd say the main difference is that with the second technique you're not wearing down the fixed equipment, especially if it's just a set of thinner rings like the ones in the video. With the first method you can also use an ATC, or (correct me if I'm wrong on this) any belay device. I don't use prussik when I rap with a GriGri as it's an autoblocking device itself. You should be able to use prussik with anything, though, as long as it's on an extension so that the prussik doesn't jam into the device. Edit: I guess another difference between the two techniques is the weight between the two bolts will be equalizing (or not) in a different manner.
Imho: first one gives You two times higher rope speed on belaying device and two times lower friction forces to take the same effect as the second one. It's easier to control descending speed. If I remember well... this is the only way accepted by Petzl.
Please do not self belay through the fixed rings, this will cause them to wear down. Ruining them for other climbers. Also that is a big ledge but he should still be tethered to the bolts just in case.
Yeah but the whole reason to rap from fixed anchors as opposed to lowering is to avoid wearing out the anchors, and rapping with a Grigri still does that. You might as well just have your partner lower you. Also who leads sport climbs with a Grigri on them?
It actually is only half as much wear as when a partner lowers you as it is only half the weight. Also the second technique is a rappel. I carry a grigri a lot. But on red points I don’t, in which case my partner would just have to lower me.
Thumbs down due to: 1) First setup - your rope is grinding the anchor and you might get stuck while descending 2) Second setup is death risk - clipping grigri to wrong strand or knot slipping through the ring and you die without warning, using HMS to backup and than let it fall 30m over the rocks is no-no for its durability and forbiden by manufacturers. 3) Preparing and testing the rappel without being secured to the anchor with a sling. I know we can do terrible things up there to save some time etc but internet tutorials for beginners should show only best practices or at least explain the drawbacks which should be considered.
The only thing "wrong" is not being secured with a sling. With the first method there is no difference compared to a normal lower off in sport climbing, but you're doing it yourself instead of the belayer. The second method is perfectly safe. You should always weight your rope while being still attached to the anchor with a PAS before rappelling regardless of the method used. Also, if you used the 2nd method you would've noticed that the carabiner does not "fall 30m over the rocks", instead it slides gracefully with the rope, it's when the biner is down with you when the rest of the rope will free fall. Petzl actually recommends and instruct these two methods, you can see the last one here: www.petzl.com/LU/en/Sport/Multi-pitch-rappelling-with-a-single-rope?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
I left out the clipping to the anchor for clarity to the folks watching. But yes, definitely a good idea to be clipped to an anchor! The wear on the rings is actually less than when someone else lowers because there is only half the weight on the anchor. Thanks for the comments!
Not sure where you get the idea that the carabiner is falling 30 meters. That’s the pull side of the rope. Right about the Time that carabiner gets to the ground and in your hand, the rest of the rope should zing down, so it’s not really falling at all.
Thanks for the good video. I feel like it's important to note that the very last video clip is what it looks like when retrieving your rope - NOT what it should look like when rappelling. That should be obvious to an experienced climber, but I could see a less experienced climber maybe being confused. Rappelling on the wrong strand in that setup is actually called falling - DANGER.
Great note!
I was wondering too😅. But why use second method? First one seems fine and you leave no gears on the wall 🤔🤔
@@clee2865 first method involves moving the rope through the anchor whilst the rope is weighted. This leads to increased wear on the fixed anchors.
@@XAVR_ also on puts twice the weight onto the anchor because of pulley effect
Just a note to viewers: being someone who has developed many routes in San Miguel de Allende MX, spending alot of time (and money) on installing anchor hardware, lowering yourself through the hardware puts unnecessary wear on that gear which takes time and money to replace, so PLEASE always descend using the blocking knot and fixed-rope method. It puts way less wear on the hardware.
We definitely used to have this methodology of thought. But now we just tell people to lower off as it takes less steps and make sure you give to your local bolt replacement funds. We would rather spend money on replacement than raise money for gravestones.
Short and sweet. Nice info, will remember this when I inevitably forget my ATC someday
Great video. Short and sweet, straight to the point. Excellent sound as well.
Excellent video
what a fantastic video good job
Appreciate the info dude! Just subscribed as well.
Super cool and quick, and safe.
Good short and important awesome!
Excellent demo. The first method especially is often overlooked. This might be obvious, but the absolute number one rule of blocks is that it absolutely cannot have a chance of passing through your anchor. With large rings like this, tt might be better to do a carabiner block rather than a knot block. Other than that minor observation, nice technique, and I appreciate you keeping the video short and sweet.
Explain further carabiner block
Tie a bigger knot
I use the first method when I can walk to the top of the route to set a top rope anchor and don't want to walk back down. Super handy. I'm gonna use the second method so I can retrieve the rope too now.
Nice! I have tried the first method, but I would add a machard knot for more security, just in case.
The problem with backing up the GriGri is that it becomes unwieldy to operate. It is somewhat inherently backed up if you just let go.
This is especially true when self lowering due to the weight of the rope below.
At least what I have found from my experience.
Thanks for the info!! In what situations is the first option used and in wich the second?? Thank you very much
Which one would you say is the safest? the second one has a little bit less rope due to the knots, so I am tempted to always use the first one...
yeah, but if everyone uses the first method, the rings will get damaged from the abrasion.
Captain! On this last trip I have rapped with the Grigri. That moment of transition from the leash to the G was intense!
Karsten,
When lowering yourself using the first method here, what is going on at the bottom with the end of the rope? Do you remain on belay from your belayer or are you just eating up what’s left of the rope on the deck? Suppose this is where it is critical to have barrel knots at the ends of the rope as well? Congrats on your recent cert!
You are correct, the rope is just coming off the stack.
I tell folks that “closing the system “ or having knots, is the default ; and we should only not have knots if we have a specific reason.
Thanks for the congrats!
Thanks for the response! I’d like to try this method on some shorter, lower class sport climbs.
Nice clunky sounds. Gotta love it
Thank you 😋
Thanks for the video! I personally would do an alpine butterfly knot instead of an overhand in this situation, but overhand works fine too :)
Definitely! The Alpine butterfly is a great knot for this. I usually just try to keep it simple for folks but really the ABF is a better application in many ways.
What is the vest way to ro this with your partner after a multipitch sport route??
First method should be used with caution, alot of rope movement compared to a regular rappel so in saxon sandstone for example you shouldnt do it because youll cut the rock with the rope like that.
Thank you
You're welcome
Hi Karsten, got this recommended :). Tbh, I dont see a situation where I would prefer this over repelling with reverso + third hand. I just feel like there is not enough backup with the grigri if I suddenly get hit by a stone and drop both hands, you could add a prusik tho.
And a quick question: Whats your opinion on the texas rope trick if you cant finish a route? Usefull, or do you just leave a quickdraw carabiner or a quicklink?
Shouldn't one use an prusik or some other redundancy when rappelling? As much as I trust my grigri, just descending on a grigri alone seems mighty risky to me.
I think this tool is done fairly regularly. If you think about it, it isn’t really different than lowering someone.
Is there a specific situation to use each of these methods or is just a matter of preference?
With most anchors these days it should be fine with either. The self lower will likely be more efficient as it feed rope as you go down.
The rappel can work well if there is a core shot in one side of your rope.
Hello i didn’t understand the use of the second rappel option. If you do this you leave materials on the wall 🤔
You can pull the rope from the opposite side. This tool is useful if you have something wrong like a core shot in the other strand of rope but still need to get down.
Or if you just want to rappel and not self lower.
After you’ve tied off the right side how do you retrieve the rope when you’re on the ground, just by pulling through the right hand side?
Yup! You got it!
the brake line the gri gri is attached to does it have to be long enough to touch the ground? probably right ? lol
It does! Also suggested to put a knot in that end.
@@howtoclimb ok I tested this successfully on the wall today. Lowering is a bit slow but good. I say rappelling with gri gri is perfectly fine since I have seen it in action. Do you find it preferably to a manual atc?
@@bboyorc I do like using it when on a single strand or have the possibility of needing to ascend the rope. But I don’t always have one on me so really it depends.
might be a dumb question, but why would you rappel over self lowering?
That is a great question! Maybe because one side of the rope has been cut. Or maybe because the anchor doesn’t allow for rope to be moving through it weighted. Like metolius rap hangers.
@@howtoclimb thanks!!
Gear is worn through and looks sketch or sharp
Ohhh, okay I get it. Rap the end that isn’t tied
Maaaan, save those rings and use reverso or anything. Someone will do that 500 times from that ring and 501 will cut the metal. But thanks for showing this just in case someone will forget the atc or reverso or does not feel comfortable using bare carabiner with a knot.
It is actually less wear than when someone else lowers you since it is only half the weight. In the New River , lowering is common practice. But the second technique does take care of this if one is worried about the wear.
Are you located in Michigan by any chance?
I work up in Michigan some in the UP.
@@howtoclimb I just moved up to Michigan any secret spots you can throw my way also if you ever need a filmer or some help with filming I’m always down to get out
I'm wondering what the difference between the 2 techniques is? The first one seems easier to set up but I don't know its limitations. Also, do you use a prusik or autoblock with these?
I'd say the main difference is that with the second technique you're not wearing down the fixed equipment, especially if it's just a set of thinner rings like the ones in the video. With the first method you can also use an ATC, or (correct me if I'm wrong on this) any belay device. I don't use prussik when I rap with a GriGri as it's an autoblocking device itself. You should be able to use prussik with anything, though, as long as it's on an extension so that the prussik doesn't jam into the device.
Edit: I guess another difference between the two techniques is the weight between the two bolts will be equalizing (or not) in a different manner.
Imho: first one gives You two times higher rope speed on belaying device and two times lower friction forces to take the same effect as the second one. It's easier to control descending speed. If I remember well... this is the only way accepted by Petzl.
@@seraphine7973 could you elaborate on which of the two you mean is approved by petzl?
@@derekxiaoEvanescentBliss The first method shown is approved by petzl www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Self-lowering?ProductName=GRIGRI
@@victorlandon7915 the second also www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Multi-pitch-rappelling-with-a-single-rope?ProductName=GRIGRI
or you go absolute pro mode and rappel with 2 grigris, one on each strand
That is next level for sure!
I melted my partners face when I rappelled using a Blake's hitch
Please do not self belay through the fixed rings, this will cause them to wear down. Ruining them for other climbers.
Also that is a big ledge but he should still be tethered to the bolts just in case.
Self lowering doesn't wear them down quicker than being lowered amigo.
Yeah but the whole reason to rap from fixed anchors as opposed to lowering is to avoid wearing out the anchors, and rapping with a Grigri still does that. You might as well just have your partner lower you. Also who leads sport climbs with a Grigri on them?
It actually is only half as much wear as when a partner lowers you as it is only half the weight.
Also the second technique is a rappel.
I carry a grigri a lot. But on red points I don’t, in which case my partner would just have to lower me.
You shouldn’t do that it wears out the metal
Thumbs down due to: 1) First setup - your rope is grinding the anchor and you might get stuck while descending 2) Second setup is death risk - clipping grigri to wrong strand or knot slipping through the ring and you die without warning, using HMS to backup and than let it fall 30m over the rocks is no-no for its durability and forbiden by manufacturers. 3) Preparing and testing the rappel without being secured to the anchor with a sling. I know we can do terrible things up there to save some time etc but internet tutorials for beginners should show only best practices or at least explain the drawbacks which should be considered.
The only thing "wrong" is not being secured with a sling. With the first method there is no difference compared to a normal lower off in sport climbing, but you're doing it yourself instead of the belayer.
The second method is perfectly safe. You should always weight your rope while being still attached to the anchor with a PAS before rappelling regardless of the method used. Also, if you used the 2nd method you would've noticed that the carabiner does not "fall 30m over the rocks", instead it slides gracefully with the rope, it's when the biner is down with you when the rest of the rope will free fall.
Petzl actually recommends and instruct these two methods, you can see the last one here: www.petzl.com/LU/en/Sport/Multi-pitch-rappelling-with-a-single-rope?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing
I left out the clipping to the anchor for clarity to the folks watching. But yes, definitely a good idea to be clipped to an anchor!
The wear on the rings is actually less than when someone else lowers because there is only half the weight on the anchor.
Thanks for the comments!
Are you trolling?
Not sure where you get the idea that the carabiner is falling 30 meters. That’s the pull side of the rope. Right about the Time that carabiner gets to the ground and in your hand, the rest of the rope should zing down, so it’s not really falling at all.
That locking knot 🪢 is not safe enough, just make the same thing and pas it trough the chains ⛓ locking it completely and not depending on the rope
I don’t think I understand? The carabiner can not pass through the chains. So I am not following as to what is not safe?
@@howtoclimb why don’t you just make a ear knot? I don’t know exactly the name of the knot 🪢 I think theirs more options than doing that funky knot’