Should Vegans Accommodate Their Meat Eating Friends?
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- Опубліковано 12 тра 2024
- Today I'm discussing a news story from NEWS10 in Albany, NY in which a meat eater wonders whether her vegan friend should "accommodate" her by cooking meat, just as she cooks vegan meals for her friend. Then I talk about the moral dilemmas I, and I think many vegans, have found myself in in order to accommodate a carnist world. Let me know your thoughts!
www.news10.com/news/local-new...
intro 00:00
news story 01:00
my struggles 06:11 - Розваги
I found the full text of what Carrie actually asked, and I believe the anchors misrepresented her question. Essentially her issue is that she doesn’t like tofu or beans, which her vegan friend always serves, and would prefer pasta, but her vegan friend doesn’t like that. IMO, that’s a different issue than “should my vegan friend prepare meat for me?” But I guess that was a juicier/more clickable debate. The original text is below:
"Hi Jaime. I have a real dilemma and I don’t know what to do. I have a very good friend, Heather, who is vegan. I respect her choice. So every time she comes to my house for dinner, I happily make her a special meal just for her that is vegan, while I serve something else for myself and the other people at dinner. However, when I go to her house for dinner, she NEVER prepares a special meal for me. I’m always forced to eat tofu or beans, neither of which are my favorite. In fact, I don’t really like them at all. I thought pasta could be a good compromise, but she doesn’t like it. Don’t you think she should cook a special meal for me with food I like when I go over there, like I do for her? She said I’m being unreasonable, but I don’t think I am. I think it’s an unbalanced friendship. What do you think? Thanks so much for your help."
Yes, totally different situation solvable with some plant meat, like Beyond or Impossible.
🤤 hmmm...pasta.🤤
How about lentil pasta as a compromise? We do not have it where I am at, but I heard people like it. The vegan would still have legumes.
Yeah k that’s a very different question and one that is far more legitimate!
Thank you for always bringing a reasonable take on all this Marielle. Your comment about how non-vegans do not even begin to realise how flexible we really are is so accurate, and a frustrating thought I've had so frequently. Reading the comments I also note how difficult vegans like us have it too -- we've got the majority of non-vegans who are exhausting in all the obvious ways, and then we've got the vegan police who will attack you for being honest about the more difficult choices, or, as I see below, for adopting (in their words 'owning') stray/rspca cats and feeding them with the best way you believe is currently available.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment, Melanie. You completely hi the nail on the head with the struggles of being criticized by both sides; I actually had this exact same discussion with Paul the other day. I believe being honest about this stuff is important, even if it reveals my own imperfections and opens me up to criticism.
I just went vegan in May, so I’m still working through all these little complications that comes with it. I appreciate your nuanced take on the matter!
I'm so glad you could relate to this! "Going vegan" isn't the end of the road (although many would disagree with me). There are constant improvements that can be made, but I believe we also need to go easy on ourselves. We're all doing our best in a world that makes it exceedingly difficult to do so.
How is it going? 😊
These are definitely difficult situations and going through them for the first few times as the minority in a carnist world where all the pressure is on us to conform, it can be very difficult. I think you're in the right to set your boundaries for yourself, your home, your money, your domain. People may not like it, but just like with becoming vegan, it's an uphill battle in the beginning until you find your place and make a home around it, the same goes for social etiquette. I have very strict rules in my car, no eating at all, I don't care if you're dying I don't want food in my car haha. Same goes for the house then, no non vegan food in the house period. If people are coming over I will tell them in advance I will provide you food but it will be 100% vegan whether I make it or we order out, I don't want any non vegan food being funded by me or or consumed in my house. I think it's a reasonable expectation. If they are your friends they should understand why you are vegan and why it would bother you to have any animal food consumption around you whether in your presence or in your house. There are situations where we can't do anything about it such as at work during a lunch but if someone is over your house and they are guests they have to obey your rules. And if they don't like them they don't have to come. It's as simple as that. People who want to be obtuse aren't worth keeping around as friends anyway. Yes it may come across as inflexible and non compromising but, let's talk about what you're asking me to compromise, you want me to pay for or host you while you participate in the murder, rape, torture of a living being. You should thank your stars I'm still friends with you after you doing all that openly and brazenly.
Also on the terminally ill relative I would gladly tell them to fuck right off, just because you're on your deathbed doesn't excuse you from participating in animal cruelty. If you knew anything about me or cared about me you'd understand that causing animal cruelty for sensory taste pleasure is never okay regardless of whether you're terminally ill or not. I would legitimately tell any of my relatives terminally ill or not to fuck right off if they asked me something like that.
You're right that it can be an uphill battle in creating these boundaries. One thing I've noticed is people are usually only thinking about their own experiences. I can't expect them to be thinking about the fact that I'm vegan first and foremost all the time. Honestly many people in my life forget I'm vegan in certain moments and tbh, I have forgotten food allergies of people in my life. I'm NOT saying Veganism is akin to a food allergy, but honestly most people who don't "get it" think of it as a dietary restriction/preference and treat it as such. I think a lot of that "uphill battle" is just getting people to understand how important it is to us without thinking we're just "being difficult."
All your points are spot on. There's no way a vegan should have to support abusing and harming animals just because their friend likes the taste of meat. Especially when there's vegan alternatives that taste the same.
💯
I've definitely struggled with a lot of these social issues. What I've landed on is the fact that my best chance to help the affected animals is to allow my non-vegan family to share space and cookware in my home. I've had a lot of success with practicing cooking and making my foods for potlucks receptive to them. I'm hoping that will help destigmatize the ethical position. I don't pay for others' non-vegan food, but for a sick relative I'd have to think about it; I haven't run into that situation yet.
To sum up, it's hard to take a habit that's been carefully crafted and apply nuanced modifications to it to help those its intended to protect, the animals. I think it's normal to struggle there and you're doing awesome, thanks for sharing.
Yes as much as I understand the rigid boundaries, sometimes I do wonder if it ends up closing more minds as opposed to opening them. In the recent situation where we had non-vegan guests, because we cooked meals together one of our guests ended up discovering and loving a vegan mayo product. I think of that as a win that may not have occurred if we had not allowed them to stay with us.
"It's hard to take a habit that's been carefully crafted and apply nuanced modifications to it to help those its intended to protect, the animals" is so perfectly put 👌🏻
Sorry about the sound 🫠 I had my external mic set up but apparently it didn’t record properly 😭 I should be back in my home setup for the next vid!
I _could_ relate to your experiences. A couple of years after becoming a vegan, during which time I still cooked holiday meals featuring animal products (although other family members paid for them), I put my foot down and said, "I'm not makin' dead animal anymore. From now on, food in my house is vegan." And that was it. People already knew not to bring other things into my home, such as gifts for me, that were animal-based, so that was the last piece to fall into place. They "got it." The social dilemma segment from Albany news means that there are still lots of people out there who don't "get it." Thanks for posting
Ahh Tamara, I can imagine that being a professionally trained chef a lot of the expectation would fall on you in cooking the holiday meals! I'm glad you've put your foot down and hope you've been able to "wow" everyone with your vegan cooking!
@@TotallyForkable Thanks, Marielle. I have a distinct memory of throwing an organic, "humanely-raised" turkey's remain's into the garage trash can after one Thanksgiving years ago. There was still meat on his or her bones because none of the guests wanted a doggie bag that year, and I thought "This poor animal died horribly for nothing, and I can't do this again." I told everyone about my epiphany a short while later and that was it. I suspect many of my usual guests are a little scared of me. Do what I want or no apple pie!
Yeah, Thanksgiving is a particularly grotesque and devastating holiday. I love the image of your guests being scared of you and simultaneously loving your cooking! It's awesome that you've been able to host some vegan Thanksgivings. I look forward to hopefully one day being able to do that with Paul at our house-- pray for my Carnist relatives that they don't pass away after one meal without animal products! 🙏🏻
@@TotallyForkable LOL!
Let´s go with the "after". My "before" answer still stands. I think it's very important for your friends to know and understand your boundaries, and for me it helps to speak about the situations beforehand. When I've encountered a situation that hadn't been talked about previously and because of the "on the spot" pressure I have only been able to navigate it not bearing in mind my beliefs, later I've felt uneasy. I've also felt that I have missed the opportunity to make others understand that animal liberation is not light issue that I can only have in mind when it's convenient for me or others. When I come across situations like those you described (ie looking after a sick relative, friends over, etc.) I have tried to make them understand by making comparisons with eating dogs or cats: "would you buy me a roasted puppy if I asked you?" "Would you be comfortable if I brought cat steaks to your dinner party?". On the other hand I don't think your choice of feeding your cats meat changes your right to stick to your values, or the obligation of your loved ones to respect your boundaries in a situation that they can extraordinarily easily do so (nobody is going to die for not getting meat in their takeaway one night). So in that situation, after having carefully explained how I feel to my friends or family, if they refused to be respectful of my beliefs, I'd have to decide whether they're the right people to be around. Thank you for your video!
Thank you for your thoughts; I agree with everything you said, especially: "I've also felt that I have missed the opportunity to make others understand that animal liberation is not light issue that I can only have in mind when it's convenient for me or others." So well put 👏🏻
Good luck to anyone expecting a chicken dinner in a vegan household. You would think people who know your moral stand would not order and consume meat in your home. Recurrent problem in a vegan life. Great video!
Everyone that visits our house knows we are vegan and knows they wil eat vegan. No one has ever refused to visit us because of our diet. I think it is a matter of respecting the persons household. We don't REQUIRE our friends to make vegan for us, we will bring our own food.
Thank you for sharing, and yes I agree on the respecting someone's household.
I actually watched this yesterday but I wanted to comment. You said something in another of your videos that resonated with me and continues to do so. The idea that being vegan is basically difficult. I think this is true because of two things: speciesism and having to be smart. You do not become an island when you become vegan. You continue to interact with non-vegans and to deal with the pervasiveness of speciesism, if pervasive as an understatement is even allowed. Non-vegans act as if meat should actually be an interchangeable part of our diet (“We’re such good friends she should be okay with cooking a chicken for me.”) Ah, no. You especially see this in the sensitivity about common terms. But also in the vein that you have made an important personal decision you also have to be smart. You’re responsible for yourself and some arguments are just not worth it. What goes on in your personal space is just that.
This is such a good way of thinking about it! I love the "island" reference because it's an image I have referred to in a few of my videos, that we as vegans need to focus on getting people to come check out our island, which can mean navigating tricky waters (to stick with the theme 😅).
And yes, I think in trying to "sell" people on the concept of Veganism, we tend talk about how "easy" it is. I think that can set people up to fail, however, when they find it more difficult than they thought but may be scared to ask for help (not exactly your point but another thought that came to mind). I think that's part of why I like to be honest about the struggles (along with the joys!).
I own a place and I have a roommate. I am vegan and she is not. I insist on a vegan household and she largely respects that, but it's impossible for someone who isn't actually vegan to put the level of care and attention into it that it requires, and we have conflicts sometimes because she didn't realize she was bringing home products of cruelty. However, she's attempted to observe the rules for several years now, and yet we STILL cannot have a conversation about veganism and animal abuse. It's just another household chore as far as she is concerned. I find this horrifying. I assumed that after several years of doing all the hard parts, a person would find room in their heart to do a little self reflection. I have never had any problem telling guests that it is a vegan household, and I always bring my own food with me when I go out to do anything social. It might be a bit awkward but the alternatives are unacceptable.
Most people are experts in denial, which help sidetrack the guilt of self gratification. Some of us, on the other hand, allow empathy to over ride selfishness and use our brains to reason.
That is so sad it makes me want to weep. I will never understand heartless people like her.
I'm glad she respects your house rules but yes it's so disappointing when people seemingly refuse to "get it." If nothing else, I'm sure your house rules have exposed her to a whole other world of cooking, flavors, etc that she wouldn't have otherwise discovered!
Hi! I'm going to give you my opinion before and after I see the video and this is the "before". Absolutely not, vegans shouldn't have to accommodate to non vegans wishes. Being vegan is refusing to use other animals as commodities, it's not just about what goes into their own stomach. Nobody should ask anyone to do something that goes against their principles, specially if they care for them.
Short andswer: no
Long answer: Hell noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
hahhahah
The answer to that question is absolutely no. That also includes carnivorous companion animals such as cats. Would you kill a person to feed to your cat? If the answer is no, then don’t murder any other animal. Feed the cat nutritionally adequate vegan cat food. Benevo wet cat food is perfect for cats. Vgrrr provides all the adequate nutrition for cats and it’s vegan. Not feeding carnivorous animals vegan makes you not vegan.
I mentioned this in a comment below, but this is a topic that I researched pretty heavily a few years ago. At the time I tried out a vegan wet and dry alternative and they either didn't like it or, in the case of the wet food, it made them intensely sick. It seems like there are a few more options now; I will look into the products you mentioned. One thing about cats is that they are extremely picky. Just because we want them to eat something, doesn't mean they're going to eat it.
You don’t have to feed your cats animals. There’s vegan cat food that is formulated with all the nutrients they need and many cats eat it and are healthy. Please check out vegan gains’ videos about his vegan pets
I will definitely check out his video. This is a topic that I researched pretty intensely a few years ago. At the time I tried out a vegan wet and dry alternative and they either didn't like it or, in the case of the wet food, it made them intensely sick. It seems like there may be more products on the market now so I will look into it again.
@@TotallyForkable Don’t give up 😊 Where there’s a will there’s a way. Even if somehow the vegan cat food doesn’t work you can try obtaining meat without purchasing it freegan style, trust me they don’t care where it comes from.
Omg, these people who think the vegan should cook meat are being so moronic. This is like saying that if I made a gluten free meal for a friend who is gluten intolerant, that person should then reciprocate by making me a gluten heavy meal.
And if someone can’t see how stupid that above “reasoning” is, they need to leave society for a while and reconnect with the most rudimentary of logic.
Sadly due to our warped views as a society specifically around diet culture, most people think of Veganism as a weight loss endeavor. See: most conservative public figures' main argument against Veganism being: "it's not as healthy as you think it is!!"
I agree but it’s also weirder than that.
Veganism is an ethical position not a dietary restriction, so it’s like someone saying that you should let them beat your kids because they didn’t beat their kids when you came round to their place.
@@jamesbyrne3033 Lol, well, kids can be really annoying, so I might be on board with that! 😎
Jk, obviously, that’s a good analogy
They can eat plants but I can’t eat meat so I will not pay for or prepare non vegan food. If they cook and bring it sure
I think this is a good attitude.
I am a bit confused about two things: Why is it not okay for an ethical vegan to buy rotisserie chicken, but it is fine to get other take-out food like pizza? I thought I heard this incorrectly, but my partner understood the same. So maybe it is an editing issue?
Secondly I personally do not get why, non-spiritual, ethical vegans want to have their cooking ware touched by animal foods. It come over as religious (like kosher) to me. That is fine if someone is truely religious, but I do not see the benefit for the animals in this house rule. My partner showed some more understanding for this rule/request as she is reminded of how in the past there were some dead cockroaches on some of the plates I used almost everyday. I never think about this at all so I guess I will never completely understand as I have never been easily disgusted.
All I care about is that I minimise financing unneeded harm. I do not care much if someone will cook and/or eat meat inside my home. Unless they do this to disrespect me and/or If they expect me to pay for it. Then......they are dead to me or some they soon will be.😬😡💀 (Bit of exaggeration here, but you get my point hopefully 😉)
Edit: I do understand buying animal products for terminally ill relatives that you care for though. I have done the same and refuse the feel guilty about that. I consider myself flexitarian though (if at gunpoint) so maybe that makes it easier to forgive myself.
It's not okay to buy pizza or rotisserie chicken. She gave that pizza comment a little bit more merit because in the beginning of the comment they mentioned how it would be unreasonable to expect a vegan to soil their utensils with animal products so it's better to buy food. However forkable chimed in saying it has the same problem as the rotisserie chicken because you're still paying for animal cruelty. I don't think she was defending the pizza buying just giving it merit for the reason stated before that yes this commenter understands partially why it's absurd to ask a vegan to cook non vegan food for guests.
Also the benefit to the animals for not having animal food cooked in your home or consumed in your home for that matter is again cutting down on spaces or times where people can purchase animal cruelty. She can't stop her guests from consuming animal cruelty but she does have control over her home and her money so she will exercise her control over that to make sure no animal cruelty is being financed due to her hosting guests. Also on top of that it's just gross and disgusting to have animal flesh on your cookware. If you don't understand the disgust imagine if someone wanted to cook human meat on your cookware and that's the same level of disgust I feel and she feels too most likely.
Also on the terminally ill relative I would gladly tell them to fuck right off, just because you're on your deathbed doesn't excuse you from participating in animal cruelty. If you knew anything about me or cared about me you'd understand that causing animal cruelty for sensory taste pleasure is never okay regardless of whether you're terminally ill or not. I would legitimately tell any of my relatives terminally ill or not to fuck right off if they asked me something like that.
@@snow86241 Thanks for the explanations. I honestly did not get some of your points from the video, but they are imo decent reasons for keeping a home completely vegan.
On the 'human flesh on utensils' scenario: I am not sure if I would use those utensils or not. Now I would probably buy new ones, because I can afford it, but in the past I have slept for months on a mattress I saw someone I cared for die on. We did not have the money to replace it and I did not have strong feelings of disgust about the object so I slept on it. Utensils can be cleaned much better than a mattress.
Correction edit: I was convinced I slept on the mattress, but months later I was reminded that we did manage to replace it.
On the terminally ill asking for meat: If that person would have asked me the same way as you describe my reaction would have likely been close to the same as yours, 🙂 however the person never literally asked me to buy meat. Eventually it was simply one of the few ways left over for me to get some nutrients into their body as they were rapidly wasting away from the terminal disease they were burdened with. It is easy to image a situation where you just say no. It is harder to live through a situation where several of your values collide.
@@ThingsYoudontwanttohear I think there's a difference between tolerating something that you don't have much choice but to deal with, and having the power to dictate how your belongings should be used. I think in a pinch we can all use subpar things that we're not comfortable with. I would probably sleep on a mattress with bedbugs if I had no choice and my home was infested until I found a way to sort it out, but it's not my preference and I'm extremely repulsed by it and would do anything in my power to avoid being in that situation despite being capable of living with it if I absolutely needed to. There is no justifiable reason to let someone cook anything you are not comfortable having in your home and it's okay to set that boundary. I think it's easier for me to make that decision because I don't have any qualms about losing friends or family because of it. I'm used to be alone, not having many/any friends or family on my side. I can understand that if you do have very good relationships and bonds with people it can be a lot harder to sacrifice those due to personal ideals/beliefs but that's a decision everyone has to make on their on about what they consider more important and what lines they are willing to cross for the sake of maintaining social relationships versus what their deal breakers are. I don't have very good family relationships so it's very easy for me to draw that line with them. Part of the reason I don't have good relationships with them is due to a history of drawing these kinds of lines and standing up for myself when I believe that there's something I shouldn't compromise myself or my values on. I don't think everyone should hold their values to such a high standard as to be left with no one in their corner because it's probably not the healthiest thing but I personally can't live and be around people who have certain ideologies. If I'm going to go insane dealing with people like that I'm truly better off being alone versus continually compromising for people around me when they don't respect me and my beliefs. Sometimes it feels like I wish I didn't have any carnivore friends. I can logically justify dealing with someone who hasn't had a chance to think about the topic or know much about it, but as a consequence of being my friend people will indirectly eventually learn the reasons why veganism is the right way to go and I can't stand the thought of associating with people who knowingly choose to continue to contribute to animal cruelty in front of me every single day at lunch. It really bothers me and I don't know what to do about it. On one had I feel bad for judging but on the other it feels like I'm surrounded by people who participate in cannibalism and think I'm the crazy one for not wanting to do the same. I don't want to be surrounded by people who otherwise act completely compassionate and normal aside from showing their cannibalism off nonchalantly as the most normal thing ever. It's creepy, it's scary, it's traumatizing if I really think about it. When I say cannibalism it's to show the level of repulsion and disgust I feel about animal product consumption. I probably answered more than you asked for but here we are XD. Thank you for talking with me!
@@snow86241 I actually had bedbugs in my mattress once. 😄 The thought of bugs in my bed did not disgust me, (I guess I lack the "disgust gene") but my partner at the time was severely allergic and of course I did not enjoy us being plagued by them at night. So we used insecticide and moved to a different home asap. My partner's suffering was the most important factor for me to take resolute action.
When I judge people I also try to think back to the time I was a "cannibal" to put things into perspective. I can not expect people to follow the same path to nicer ideals as I did even if it is very frustrating sometimes. I try to take the emotion out of the equation as much as I can. Easier said than done.
I enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for being so open about this!
I agree with a lot of your points! And yes you're right that what I stated in the earlier part of the video did not match up with what I said later. In the first part of the video I was giving my thoughts under the "ideal circumstances," then later explained I have been in some less-than-ideal circumstances during which things didn't play out the way I would have liked (situations I have learned from).
And you're right that the pans thing comes off as a religious thing. I'm aware that when I eat at non-vegan restaurants or at family/friend's houses I am eating off of pans and tableware that have had animal products on them. I admit that is somewhat of an "in-my-head" thing, but also there are practical things like I hate how difficult eggs are to get off pans (and in my experience people who cook eggs never thoroughly clean the pans 😖).
Thanks for your comment!
I dont understand why the vegans have to cook meat its so frustrating
Definitely not
Owning animals for the purpose of companionship is animal exploitation. It's not vegan! It would be much more honest for you to recognize that you are stepping entirely outside your veganism than to try to twist up your ideals until they allow you to "keep two small carnivores" and think that's still vegan.
....what?
Is her vegan badge revoked now? In this case I would say that perfect is the enemy of good.
She could try to give them vegan cat food if she can find a safe brand and her cats will eat it. I will give you that, but she might have already investigated this and her cats might be rescued not bought. Idk.
I hate to think what you do to your pets (if you have any) saying it is exploitation... maybe you missed the memo about pets being family members and us giving them love and care.i have 10 rescues here, that people abandoned or mistreated.. they are my companions and my furry children...
I agree with this. Animal ownership is complicated and probably the only thing that is morally permissible is having rescues. Also like they said there is vegan cat food, not sure why you still need to feed them animal cruelty.
Would you prefer leaving abandoned animals in shelters to be killed? We should never advocate for intentional breeding of any animals and never financially support those that do. However, we live in a non-vegan world where cats, dogs and a variety of other domesticated animals are discarded with little concern. Ideally domesticated animals, whether companion animals or farmed animals, that are dependent on us should not exist but we are a long way from that and need to cope with the man made mess that is our current reality.
Vegans should just not try to ruin other people’s livelihood… that’s good enough
If people advocating for the victims of violent abuse and exploitation are ruining your livelihood, it’s pretty obvious that you’re the problem, not them.
@@jamesbyrne3033 the livelihood in question has no human victims of violent abuse and exploitation… if you’re referring to animals, and your goal is to protect them and stop killing the innocent animals… what about insecticides, secondhand poison, rodenticides, wildlife culling , fertilizer dead zones , vegan product animal testing…
I’ve been over this with you before.
A vegan food system requires the production of far far fewer plants, because it doesn’t need to feed tens of billions of plant eating farm animals.
So when you go on about the animals killed in the production of plants, you’re making an argument for a vegan food system.
Vegan products aren’t tested on animals, otherwise they wouldn’t be vegan. Think a little bit about what you’re saying. 😂
Hell no.