As was said repeatedly in the Season of the Splicer: Guardians Make Their Own Fate. We will subvert the prophecy or foil the Witness and Rhulk's plan. And Savathun may yet have a part to play in this. Her shell may have died, but her Ghost still lives. And where there is a Ghost with Light, its' host may return.
I agree, hell, ive consistently made this joke with my friends; "I know we're supposed to have this suspension of disbelief when it comes to big bad villains in destiny, but at the end of the day, imma shoot at it a bunch and it's gonna drop a gun for me"
The issue with not trusting prophecies like this is that we’re forgetting how far most prophecies have already come and how accurately they’ve detailed the story. I urge you to read the dark future lore book and think about how much of that has already come true
@@PrismaticGeyserr It is, but we're dealing with a source of Paracausality here; and what is the Vault of Glass associated with, but Paracausality messing with time.
You know, there's something that's been playing around in my head for a while now, ever since the reveal... could the Witness be named that way because it's literally already witnessed the end? Like, it's a retrocausal entity whose working from the future backwards into the past, ensuring its victory? It could explain why the Light is such a thorn in its side, because it can let individuals create their own fate, which could potentially be free from the Witness's own enforced one. The Witness gaining access to the Light could mean it guarantees its victory in truly every possible way, and why the Traveler chose beings that could wield both Light and Darkness together (being the Krill and Humanity). If that's the case, the Traveler really needs to be protected at all costs for the sake of reality itself, and explains why it chose to run in the past all the time, the stakes are just too high.
Light and Dark have played this game for eternity and the light is actually just a term for a good, darkness for bad. These beings are advanced but maybe do this for another reason, maybe just to create. The Traveler came to us not because panic and flee but it has a plan. They knew the sisters were crucial part because they always played the game but Darkness came in first with a new plan, a new path that the Traveler has not seen or accounted for... or maybe it did. We shall see when the light falls.
@@kissushoto tbf a lot of this so far is like a chekhov’s gun. Why put it in game if it served no purpose? Especially something as resource heavy as a cutscene
@@kissushoto bungie are in their bag atm in terms of story i dont see it being a waste. Look at all the small lines from Savathun over the last year and how they hold way more impact now. Especially in a cutscene that is revealing THE major villian the whole game has lead to since D1.
I feel like the last symbol being a symbol not in the raid makes the most sense. Not only do most of the remaining symbols not make sense, but the rest seem anticlimactic. Is the Witness’ grand plan really to destroy the tower? Something the cabal could do in a few hours? I think it’s alluding to an entity in the traveller similar to the witness, as was said
Well you have to remember that without the Tower, the Guardians lose a place to rally on mass, with the tower completely destroyed this could lead to massive civilian casualties within the city. It could instead be interpreted as 'the Witness kills the City' and (by proxy) most of Humanity, which would be a very interesting place to take the story.
@@Azrael_Equinox wouldn’t it be wiser to kill the Traveller’s defenders before attacking? Or once the traveller is gone the city will be defenseless so let the strongest survive, as is the witness’ belief? Ultimately we can’t say for certain what the witness is going to or is planning to kill. Could be the city, could be the traveller entity, could be one particular thrall that it really hates, who knows
@@GrayvesX yeah, remember, the hive has slaughtered possibly millions of civilisations across millions of years. A civilisation that has one city left would easily fall without the light
Well this has been what the Witness, Rhulk and even Calus after his communion did with the races they found; they caused planetary genocide, then adopt the survivors as disciples (or Shadows in Calus's case). The only exceptions to this were the Hive and the Scorn; the Hive because them getting a hold of the light would have made them far to powerful (just look at Savathûn suddenly becoming strong enough to imprison Rhulk, one of the most powerful entities in existence, in her *own* Throne World) and the Scorn, which were more of a happy accident that they could add to their Taken legions.
I honestly think it could be Witness Kills Grief. The darkness in its weird logic has always talked about how it's saving the beings it kills from further suffering. It feels right up it's ally to "kill grief". The Witness even says that it blames the Traveller for the death.
It kinda makes sense because the Witness is in fact equating life and death as something that needs to be stopped together, implying that life and death mutually form grief, which they mainly aim to destroy. With Light mostly representing life, and Darkness mostly representing death, the force that weeds out the weaker forms of the Light-made life, and the duality binding Light and Darkness, my guess is that the Witness is trying to make both Light and Darkness annihilate each other, ending the grief born from this dualistic struggle and reaching the "Finality" or "Final Shape" in whatever form it's supposed to be represented. If there was no Light, Darkness would serve no purpose, it would be just useless and ultimately non-existent. The Witness understands that and sort of embraces this self-destructive tendency, which is quite ominous honestly. It means that they are aiming for a greater good and purpose of some sort, or maybe fulfilling the intrinsic design of the Darkness itself. While Light only wants to upbring and raise life to see what happens when no forces like the Darkness interfere to try "fixing" it by weeding out some part of it, exhoing back to the Gardener/Winnower metaphore.
The Saint 14 eulogy bastion dialogue is super important He says there was a ‘final confrontation’ where bastion is shattered and we die He says “traveler help us” meaning it must likely still be alive He wishes we could hear him and says “if you’re still out there, then come back and we’ll kill what killed you… or die trying” I feel like Saint would know the witness by the time we have a final confrontation so maybe something different kills us, because he describes your killer without a name So I imagine this new version our guardian might be in a paradox or smart enough to escape it and beat the final enemy for good The fact he has time to prepare a funeral and grave shows there must be some level of peace to where he can take time to give us a funeral too
That second to last part really reminded me of the opening d1 cutscenes. I'm not sure if it's my memory or just my head cannon but all the cuts between the different shades of mars and stuff are the skipping around. Hundreds of different time lines and the one it lands on is ours.
@@Kaida760 I actually thought about that but if we get bastion from our own dead body it makes me wonder if it will be a paradox where it leads up to the same events, it just seems too important, especially because of how hard the bastion quest puzzle was. Timelines are strange in destiny so I’m not sure. It also reminds me of the curse of Osiris sparrow description Curse of foresight: “But will my actions avert the futures I see, or cause them?” - Osiris
Sorry to interject with no knowledge. But speaking of the Bastion…where the hell is mine? I did it all the puzzle. The quest…I had it. Fired the damn thing and then…I don’t have it anymore. Any ideas?
i think the scariest posibility is that the last missing glyph may stay blank because he has no particular target. does the witness follow the darkness and its stance of the stong will survive? as he has his own agenda, his target may simply be..... everywhere
Called it when HELM first was added to the game, HELM is a space ship, and we’re going to leave the tower in it. Weather that’s because it’s destroyed or not I didn’t know at the time, but this seasons redesign has me more convinced HELM is the bridge of a ship, perhaps comparable in size (or even a captured and retrofitted) cabal ship from the invasion during the red war. Perhaps we’ll escape the destruction of the tower, perhaps we’ll leave our own system for other reasons. But HELMs location overlooking a hanger like area, the gantry ways and umbilicals we can see from the windows, and that it seems to be separate from (not built into) the hanger makes me think space ship
Bro- What if.. This is most likely a stretch, but what if they're slowly bringing in new people to take place of.. Let's say, Zavala. So, when the city finally falls, we are commissioned to the Helm and forcefully sent out of reach from the darkness while Zavala and Ikora remain. We're like a backup plan, too important to lose if they fail? Or maybe they succumb to the darkness and our next few raids or story missions are to bring them back to the light before everything is lost? Or maybe we have to kill them/lose them and have the new commanders like Crow. I've been waiting for Zavala to finally kick the can. It's felt like he's been riding that line and he seems to know it. It's only a matter of time before he gets booted.
I question the Witness's clairvoyance. A big part of the Witch Queen story is that Savathun tricked him, and made the Witness leave Earth during the Fall. How does all of this tie together?
Yea the Darkness has only ever shown remembrance of the past. Deepsight and all that. The Light looks forward. We get actual prophecy in the light and visions of future events like we've seen in cutscenes. I don't think The Witness is a being that breaks that rule and can see in both directions, so to speak.
The problem with knowing about future events isn't about them coming true, it's the realisation that you don't know if any actions (or inaction) you take after it, will cause it to happen The Witness foreseen the Traveler going to earth, and the Traveler dying on earth, the Witness however knew that what happened on Neptune with the veil linking to the Traveler would happen (because there was a prophecy of it the Witnesses interaction with the Traveler), so the mindfuck here is did the Witness assume his initial attack on earth would create the link (the Witness HAD the veil but Sav stole it and put it on neptune) Or was the Neptune events the true event the pyramid prophecy spoke of So TLDR, it doesn't matter that Sav tricked the Witness, the pyramid prophecy still happened
I think that there is some sort of being inside the Traveller. We've always sort of treated the Traveller as a being in and of itself, but there's no denying it appears to be mechanical, or technological. Similar to the Pyramids, which are 'piloted' by and perhaps created by the Witness, a being who is sort of like the paragon of Darkness, I bet there is a similar being who is inside the Traveller, and the orb we see is actually its ship. This would jive with the Witness' statement in the final cutscene about the "pale heart (of the Traveller) holding the key". I think this prophecy is saying the Witness plans to 'drink' or somehow assimilate the Light and kill his counterpart, the being inside the Travaller, of which we currently have no knowledge.
I agree with this, and I also believe that to be the final line of the prophecy wall. There is a glyph for the Witness and several of the Darkness, but there is no glyph for the entity behind the Light despite the glyphs representing it. Perhaps we will learn of their identity within the coming year?
I have a crazy theory so hear me out. What if there is no final glyph as in reality it means "Everything"? We know the witness wants to enact The Final Shape, and during the Rhulk fight, sometimes you'll hear him say something like: "Your destiny is to become the final shape, and that shape is nothing". What if the last line is just the end of the universe as it would read "Witness Kills Everything"?
I mean, the official name for a symbol left blank is, Dormant. It could be a nickname for the Traveler, since it only acted like what, Three times since it first sent out the ghosts. It blew away Ghauls Hold, Healed itself, and gave us the new supers in Forsaken. It gave crow the dreams but that's mainly it. The Traveler hasn't done much, and by most standards has been completely dormant other than pretty much moments where it's had enough and fought back a little. So it could mean kill what is Dormant, and without the Light there isn't much to stave back the darkness. So therefore is also means everything.
Might be nothing but if you complete shattered throne solo flawlessly you get an emblem. That emblem is a grey ring crumbling. It looks EXACTLY like the "blank" symbol in the obelisks/ glyphs frames (but there they are not crumbled) might be relevant?
What if the Glyph isn't lit up because it literally means nothing. It's nothingness or the end of all things not the witness or the darkness. Their final plan to wipe out all existence
I’m telling you, in the final raid we must enter the traveler and kill rahool. Turns out the darkness just wants revenge from when rahool didn’t give him a gjally.
When Osiris' exile ended, he spoke about seeing a vision in the Infinite Forest of the City covered in darkness with a Pyramid standing where the Traveler its; And then there was that FWC Prediction where they saw hundreds of ships fleeing Earth, those who couldn't keep up were left behind. We know the next Expansion is "Lightfall" and it shows a Pyramid overtop of the Traveler, we know the Expansion after that is "The Final Shape" and most importantly we know that there will still be a story after that. The Final Shape just concludes the Light & Darkness saga. I believe the typical Final Shape in the Flower Game before the Gardener and Winnower jumped in was the Vex, this all consuming thing that transforms everything it encounters into itself. And I believe the Witness will "Take" Earth, the only place in the Sol system that didn't need terraforming from the Traveler, and the only place that contains every type of enemy aside from the Vex, he'll take the planet the same way he took Mars.
The "Final Shape" of the universe is the concept that the only living things left are extremely powerful and immortal beings that won't have children. No death, and no Life
Minor nitpick, but Earth was actually not the only place that the Traveler didn't terraform. If I remember correctly, according to the journal of Clovis Bray, the Traveler did not touch Titan, Enceladus, and Europa, possibly because they all had their own native life, but possibly because something darker lurked beneath.
I remember that from a strike in the infinite forest our ghost had a vision of the future. He saw the traveler, but it was very, very small. He saw this when Sagira used our ghost’s shell.
@@contra8053 i believe the final shape will be a world without light darkness. Every life will get back to how it was supposed to be. Like real life, we live we die.
I dont think anyone is expecting a happy ending in Lightfall. But i also think the Witness and Rhulk are fully confident of their victory, so this Prophecy being Darkness Propaganda is also a posibility for me.
and maybe this propaganda not only take place in the game, but in your own and really life like " 'europe' frozen by stasis" commune with the darkness " times, and really accept it in you...
if there's one message that's stuck with me since the start of D1, its "guardians make their own fates" from Vault of Glass, and to this day i believe in that statement
Never forget; We have allies of our own. The House of Light and Mithrax. Empress Caiatl and the Cabal. Perhaps even the Lucent Brood and Savathun ( Side Note: No way have we seen the last of Savathun.) If it's a war the Witness wants then it's a war he will get.
Given the power of Rhulk and how The winess seems to have an uncountable number of disciples (maybe even Calus) in those ships even with armies, and how probably the power of the disciples came from The witness meaning they have more power than those disciples I think it's safe to assume that we're (or at least not the young wolf) totally fucked up
@@rrovba Well there is also the question that begs to be asked, since Rhulk was the First Disciple, was he the strongest? We defeated him, and a prophecy is just that, a prophecy a prediction, nothing set in stone, and with Guardian’s paracasual nature, fate or designs cannot hold onto us, though this prophecy could be paracasual in nature as well
I think grief is a very probable glyph to fill in the last remaining piece of the prophecy. I can’t remember exactly but the witness in their cutscene says something along the line of “no more death, no more life”
Fun fact, if you stand on the left side stairs you can line up the shadows to where it makes a pyramid inside the traveler symbol above it all. The same symbol for Lightfall.
So here's some spinfoil theory's from that info : I think the 3 leading options for the missing symbol on the wall are: 1:The tower for the reasons said in the video. 2: Grieve, as if I'm recalling correctly the darkness' goal of making the final shape is to relieve all suffering. or 3: Give: the word by itself makes me think of the witness killing our ghost, but the symbol looks like it's the fallen receiving the darkness. The witness is a user of the darkness, but he is not the darkness itself. I could see him drinking the light and killing the darkness so he himself becomes the final shape.
Something unrelated, I'm wondering if it's possible the lucent hive are capturing light to use in that ritual ro resurrect Oryx. Why else would Saturn be on the star map and why Savathun mentions in her Two Truth, Two Lies, "The Taken King will rise again. Just putting it out there.
Saturn's probably there for King's Fall to have a destination node when it releases in 2 season's time. Besides both Mars and Jupiter and are on the destination map and they are not available for exploration (well Mars is but that is entered through the Throne World destination so my point still stands).
@@Azrael_Equinox tbf it could be locational context for Nessus (7066 Nessus is past Saturn irl) and Dreaming City (Though I had thought it was in Asteroid belt thanks to Tangled shore Ceres flavor text), as well as the possibility of Dreadnaught returning too since it's still in Saturn's rings. Jupiter had an image in directory for D1 but most of it involved was for lore entries.
Even if the traveler falls it matters but all isn’t lost. “The light lives in all places and all things; you can block, even try and snuff it out, but the light lives on.” The speakers words we heard at the start, the speakers words we shall hear in the end.
I like your hypothesis through the symbols, the idea of the "darkness" or more accurately the witness, who seems to simply use the dark to get closer to it's goal, is going to harness the light to become it's true final shape, which only makes sense if you think about it, to become true harmony and the ultimate life form, to be it's perfect specimen for life, it will have to be both aspects, not just the outlying watchful eye, it will need to become both light and dark, it was pushing us toward that same goal, trying to see what else was worthy enough to be it's true definition of life's finality.
Then the whole story of Light vs Dark dies. The Light doesn't believe in the final shape so the Light would not need to be acquired to become it. This is proven in Unveiling.
It makes sense, but there are too many things that we don’t know… for example why and how does the witness have total control over the darkness? Why there isn’t someone/something that does the same thing with the light? Also our guardian has proved to be the strongest being in the universe at the moment… we are the only entity that can control both light and darkness and we have beaten everything we have faced. Also the fact that we still don’t know anything about the traveler really annoys me.. why in the hell didn’t anyone try to enter inside the traveler or at least do something with it?
There's been leaks that the city would be destroyed in lightfall and that the new social space would be a "capital ship" so I think tower has some merit to it
Been following these vids (since I haven't done a single raid at all) and with each new vid you could sorta feel Byf's excitement for the lore increase lmao
Idk if there's enough evidence to form a theory/hypothesis, but could we see the return of our other vendor friends, Sloan, Brother Vance, and Asher Mir? Considering we see the return of Mars and Asher Mir in the form of the blued eyed harpy, perhaps Sloan and Vance are somewhere close? Does rhulk, Savathun and/or the witness know where they are?
@@RJL-bp1jc she might be. I thought she found some Darkness armor embedded with Hive Magic and charged straight at the pyramid and we lost contact with her and Titan after that. I might be making that up though, but I thought I heard or read that somewhere.
@@jme-james I'd not be surprised she took down another Disciple of Witness all by herself. I'd also not be surprised if Asher somehow gains control of the Vex Collective and overrides their final shape directives.
I really like the idea of Savathun coming back to life with the Vanguard's permission and then working with us as uneasy and temporary allies (like we were with the Cabal at first)
I'm genuinely excited for Lightfall. Witch Queen has opened the way and I guess it's up to us to follow that path. I hope there's a huge battle much like the final mission of the Red War. I mean the light has the Guardians, the Awoken, a potential ally in the Cabal Empire, The house of Light. With the Darkness having Xivu Arath and the Hive, the Scorn, the Taken. The only factions left are basically the rest of the Fallen Houses and the Vex. I feel that when it comes to Lightfall, the Fallen may break up with some houses joining the Darkness and some perhaps joining the Light. The Vex however, are difficult to pin as they seem to be neutral party. Though maybe during Lightfall or even the upcoming seasons, maybe we'll go and potentially ask for a truce with them. I honestly have no idea what could happen but I'm sure it will be a blast in the months to come.
Sheer speculation, but "Tower" would be my current bet for the last symbol. If I can be a little meta here, if Lightfall brings about a series of awful events that result in the end of the Vanguard and/or the Last City (I'm assuming here that "Tower" could symbolize either), it could start a brand new status quo for whatever comes next, and would be a great setup for new stories. Humanity struggling to survive, once again shattered in tribes. The Guardian being even less beholden to Light = Good, Darkness = Bad. Even a plot like the Guardian helping unite Savathun's brood, the House of Light eliksni, Caiatl's Cabal, and the remainders of Humanity to fight against the Witness. A lot could come of this (tragic) possibility.
This seems to relate back to Beyond Light and the DSC. Maybe Elsie's vision of a lightless alternate future isn't "alternate" - it's just our future after the Black Fleet wins, but the details in her timeline are different because she keeps cycling through it trying to get different outcomes.
i can’t be the only one that gets sad knowing we’re getting close to the end right? i actually get emotional a little bit cause this game is part of my life now and i don’t want it to end
It’s not going to end after the Final Shape, as Bungie has confirmed that there will be more story after that point. The Final Shape is just going to end the story of the Light and Darkness
still plenty of stories out there, hell i hope they really focus on the nature of paracausality and the nine again after the light and dark story is finished out
Remember that piece of lore from D1 that describes a fleet jumping through space? The one that appears to be the remnants of the last city? With all the faction and vanguard banners, ships being lost as they can no longer make the jump? I’m certain that we will lose the last city, for good. We might win the war but we’ll lose everything in the process. And winning the war likely comes at the cost of we the Guardian sacrificing ourselves in a way the ends the cosmic war between light and dark. That, is our Destiny.
Something to reinforce this idea even more is during season of the dawn (I think) with the corridors of time and how Saint 14 is making a speech over the Guardian's grave. Imo is it possible that our Guardians died, like you said, sacrificing themselves to end the cosmic war.
The only one that doesn't make sense out of all the glyphs that could be in there is remember. Why would we need to remember? Only thing I can think of is, like others are saying is the HELM is a ship we use to escape, but by that point the Witness has won. There's no more city, the traveler is defeated/dead. There's no way for us to defeat the Witness. . . .unless we go back in time. The Exo Stranger has done it numbers of times im pretty sure she can show us how to do it. Redoing events to alter outcomes would put us in a place where we'd have a lead on the Witness, stopping certain enemies from existing and stopping certain allies from dying would switch the tables in our favor. But that's just what I think would be the outcome if remember is the last one.
I think another interesting interpretation of the absent final symbol would be that its absence signifies a degree of indefinite-ness, and therefore, universality. Without the Light counterbalancing the Darkness, there is little holding the Witness and its disciples back from killing everything and rapidly ushering in the final shape.
I think that the final symbol is "Life". And I think that we, or the Guardian, are the similar entity to the Witness pn Traveller's side. Remember that Destiny tells the story of one Guardian (player character) that's somewhat special and not multiple Guardians.
To me, IF, it is one of the remaining symbols, I feel like it is most likely grief, the Witness believes it is freeing us from a burden the traveler has placed on us
So I don’t know if anyone else forgot but we have a possible other ally in the works in the form of the captain and the Nessus vex collective I mean it’s a possibility and we have yet to have an interaction with them since season of the splicer so who knows we might be in for a side sweep of story
Byf, there are lingering symbols during the Preservation mission after the mission is complete in the rooms that you can enter that can be organized like the obelisk glyph order: remember, stop, and drink. It was there each time I’ve run that mission and tried to enter it in the room where you can activate the glyphs to no avail. Not sure what that entails, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on this and if there’s any connection to drinking the light.
Stop in the first room tells you which monument to enter next. Remember and Drink with neutral in the middle tells you to enter the door between Remember and Drink. It's just the mission order.
Now would be a REALLY good time to revisit some of the lore and story beats from Curse of Osiris and also Beyond Light. We could still win the larger war, but there's a very high chance that Sol and the City are already doomed. There were so many warnings: The simulated futures of the Infinite Forest, despite Osiris's tireless efforts, always came to the same conclusion about Sol's fate - There was no Light. The sun was dead. The Last City was annihilated, and a massive Pyramid Ship stood where the Traveler once was. And what of the Exo stranger? Think of how many hundreds of timelines she's jumped through and tried to change, but how does it always end? The Bombardment. The Last City invaded from all sides. Hive, Cabal, Fallen and corrupted Guardians siding with the Witness's forces to assault the walls. The Tower in collapse. The Traveller being smothered in Darkness. The survivors of the Last City fleeing into deep space. We're in trouble.
The Scorn, Tower, and ascendant plane could be present in the prophecy and they knew those things will happen because of it, steering things that way. Alternatively, they could just be writing a prophecy as they go.
Seeing all of this new lore and finding out that the Witness commands the disciple, the disciple manipulated the worms, the worms are the hive gods and on down the chain, I cannot help but look back at the lore card for Bad Juju. When Toland said "You think yourself very high up on the pyramid of contumely. If you only knew how high that pyramid goes." first the use of the pyramid imagery, some writer at Bungie *NEEDS* a raise! Moreover it feels like we are finally getting to see the top of that pyramid and it is a truly terrifying pinnacle. I cant wait to see how we finish the climb.
You are hereby given the title Warlock of Lore. Your in depth study of destiny's lore is what keeps me coming back for more knowledge and understanding with the constant expansion of the destiny universe. Destiny 2 is definitely taking us deeper into the depths of the dark and the questions on how to fight against it get harder to answers. Good work Byf
I know few if any people are gonna read this but I just had a thought come through my head I gotta share. what if we read the prophecy in reverse; by changing like 2 to 3 of the panels the entire meaning is reversed "the witness worships the darkness and loves the scorn and hive. the guardians stop/protect the earth from the entrance of the fleet of pyramid ships. the light flows from the traveler through the commune into the witness." now this part is where things get tricky as I am not sure what goes here but my guess would be that "the vanguard/tower kill the witness" oh and also be careful of what you eat thin man.
Personally I think that the witness will kill multiple of these but in reference to the “finality” part of his and rhulks goals I believe that the ascendant plain is getting destroyed because there is nothing final about it, oryx, savathun, xivu arath and mara all came back from death via the ascendant plain and in getting rid of it will ensure final deaths, a finality to life.
Stop the Guardian? By stop does it mean the Witness incapacitate or outright kill the Guardian? Or, perhaps, try to convince the Guardian to join him and become one of his disciples?
Hey byf, i cannot thank you enouh for these videos. You have helped me learn the lore, and especially with the raid info. Ive never done a raid,and i doubt i ever will be able to, as im eternally stuck teaching new players the basics of the game, so thank you so much! And keep up the amazing wonderful work!
Wouldn't it be strange if Bungie was using some kind of alliteration to forecast the final shape confrontation? Winnower is to witness. Gardener is to guardian. Perhaps It will actually be us that takes on the role of ultimate light bearer to combat the witness? I mean it has to be because we are the ones that interface with the game via characters, but maybe this is a foreshadowing of ascension, through interaction with the 9, splicing into vex space to take down Quria, traveling into the ascendant realms constantly, even waking the traveler during the red war.
A prophecy is merely a plan to the paracausal. Things are certainly about to change, but I think the more the Witness's plan directly includes the guardians, the longer we have to disrupt it. Similarly to how the Witness worked with Savathuun so long that she was able to slip one by him
@@shieldzyLlanbedr It's a picture of the mind. And the mind is used to both know and remember things. Heck, remembering things is a part of knowing things.
although it would be fitting to have the last symbol being someone like the hypothetical entity in the traveller, i think theres a much darker and terrifying chance that the last symbol will remain blank because maybe, just maybe, the witness just destroys everything in the universe, including the universe itself, and since no one's gonna be there to be the last symbol of the prophecy, theres a horrifying chance that the prophecy ends at kill, because, well, the witness might just kill everything and everyone so there's no symbol, and if this really is the case then i absolutely love the way bungie has crafted this prophecy
Of the symbols available in the raid I think the most likely would be Grief, as the Witness sees itself as offering salvation which can be taken as an end to grief and mourning. Certainly Rhulk doesn't seem too upset by the loss of his world and people when he has the Witness there for him.
An interesting thing with the Scorn is that there is a quote in psiops about all the factions being split. The Eliksni house of light and salvation. The Cabal allying with Caiatl and those that do not. The lucent brood and Zivu’s brood. The vex that worship darkness and those that are just doing vex things. And the guardians are using the darkness. So what about the scorn? Why is Fikrul missing? What if he is commanding a different faction of Scorn? And would he still listen to Crow?
Well, one of my altar of reflection clears in week 1 gave me a different set of truths and lies than the set I've seen discussed in various videos. I don't remember the whole set, but the one that stuck out to me was something along the line of "The Last City isn't the last city."
I knew this reminded me of something! From the Channeling Robes lore tab - And when Light and Dark meet, universes collapse. Not something to mourn. Natural order. But we believe you exist to buck natural order. You always did. Even before the Dark. Before the Light. Even if the Witness comes to commune with the Traveler and takes the Light, we're doomed when we say we are. And I didn't hear no bell.
I personally think "grief" would fit well at the end of the prophecy. It fits with the whole theme of the Witness bringing "salvation" to those subjugated. He will kill grief by killing all life, bringing about the final shape where there is no suffering because there is nobody left to suffer. Also, I wonder if calus has his own pyramid or something now.
I dont know if that will add anything but during the 2 truths, 2 lies, Sav says that "The last city is not the last city", Im not sure if that will add anything but its a thought
Post Lightfall, I think the final symbol is Savathun. With everything so far on the wall being true, and with season of the witch being about Savathun rising again, I think it makes sense the Witness will kill her
He says no more life no more death your pale heart is the key, he plans to kill guardians, we die and live to protect the traveler. The guardians current existence goes against the sword logic . This is why witness says he’s our salvation in that using the darkness only to protect ourselves. His goal is to drink the travelers light to become stronger, it’s the common major villain ploy
well, i feel like if the prophecy wasnt figured out before this past week, it is pretty easy to say the witness will kill either the tower or grief. given what we just learned about the witness, i fell them killing grief is the most logical thing that would bring about the final shape.
Byf this lines up with Lightfalls logo. Look back at it. It's a triangle inside a circle. Maybe showing the witnesses ship overtaking/defeating the traveler. This stuff is crazy and the reason I love Destiny lore.
Since D1, two things I firmly believe will happen / are true : - there are multiple Travelers and it is not a god as some treat it - we will leave our system as a 2nd collapse will occur
One things for sure, if I wasn't omniscient, I'd sure want my enemies to think I was. And I'd hide scary prophecies around my house that made it seem like I was big brain, all-knowing, omniscient baddie
Oh man.. that shit (3:33) gave me goosebumps. I can't wait to see where it all goes... Years of playing and storytelling and lore finding and byf videos.. all accumulating to The Final shape of this ending.
A star walks into a black hole but doesn't seen phased. The black hole then turns to the star and says, "I don't think you understand the gravity of this situation."
The first thought I had when seeing the symbols in the raid made me thing "How old are these things?" They could very well be new, or they could point to some level of omniscience from the Witness. All they've done so far would eventually lead to this point, this confrontation with Guardians, and they're well aware of this. The only question is, if our paracausality made it so that they can't predict fully the outcome, but just believe themselves so powerful that they can't lose to us.
That's the thing - the paracausal nature of our powers, and by extension, us, has allowed us to elude fate before to protect Humanity. I believe Lightfall will involve us foiling the Witness or somehow subverting the prophecy. Perhaps we will fail at all points, except the last? When it says "Witness Kill ?", maybe we will kill the Witness before it can begin ushering in the Final Shape and reclaim the Light for ourselves, hence why the last slot of the prophecy is blank.
I find it interesting no one comments on a singular fact, that fact which only Savathun so far seems to have glimpsed as potential. No entity was ever recorded to use both Dark and Light paracausal powers. Not even Winnower and Gardener in the Unveiling. Certainly not the Traveler or Witness. Some corrupted Guardians had to kill their ghosts and forsake Light before taking up Dark arms. That is. Until the Witness committed the ultimate idiocy in a failed bid to tempt and corrupt Guardians. Going against his own dogma, he GAVE Darkness to Guardians. And said Guardians can now use both Dark and Light. Completely unchecked. Said power cannot be taken back, as Rhulk was powerless against them. Rhulk's own Darkness was leeched off of him, and then used to break his defenses and finally him down. His powers given to him by the Witness. TAKEN from him. While he was completely powerless to do the opposite. Witness fucked up and created the ultimate paracausals. He killed himself, he just doesn't know it yet. Also, what's with the gloom about Tower falling? It already fell. We just relocated after fucking up the one who did it. Worst case scenario, this tower also falls, we eradicate Witness, no more voice in darkness, Traveler is satisfied, disperses itself and releases the Light to the cosmos. We retain our Dark and Light powers, no more entities behind paracausal forces, 10/10 done, saga over. Victory.
Me and a friend came across the thought that the last symbol in the „story“ told by the wall is „grief“(the symbol with the hole in the human chest) In the cutscene where the witness was introduced to us he said „You wanted to bring them life but you only brought them death, enough death, enough life, the game is over“ i think that might be a hint that the witness wants to end the circle of grief that life brings with it. It also goes with the sword logic, that life should only exist if it is strong enough. And the traveler is working against the sword logic by helping weak beings to survive. Which (in the eyes of the witness) then in the end leads to more grief. I hope i could share my thoughts even tho my english is not the best since im not native speaker. I really enjoy all of these new discoveries in the Destiny Story. Thank you Byf for making such great videos.
This brings that lore piece to mind: Where ships donned with faction icons are seen scouring the stars in convoy, I don’t remember it in it’s entirety but still
In the Beyond Light campaign, didn't the dialogue in the missions infer that the darkness was inside us all along, it was just up to us to unlock it? (paraphrasing). Maybe even if the traveller is killed, then it's about us discovering the light is within us and the traveller is merely one method of unlocking your potential. It would explain how some risen are evil and how some evil beings can wield the light.
maybe the final symbol is a symbol with no other alike, (like for example love). maybe the final symbol is *the final shape*? amazing video. thank you!
With this prophecy I see the potential for my personal theories to make sense. With the witness kill possibilities, I believe the ascendant plane may be the missing card. When the ascendant plane is gone, we will by some means lose Mara Sov, but in the process Savathuns throne world will be destroyed. After her throne world is destroyed, we of the traveler will willing resurrect her, then desperately fight alongside her as a fellow guardian of the light, as she will no longer have the threat of trapping the traveler in her throne world and will decide to fight for the light, as the traveler intended.
Also I think that it's worth mentioning that "drink" may not be literal as a passive, "bathe in" or, "be granted". I imagine it's more sinister such as to, "siphon", "steal" or "drain" in more of a vampiric nature.
Through watching these videos and playing through both games; just taking in all the lore and flavor-text, I have to step back sometimes and remind myself, "This all started because someone somewhere wanted to make a fun video game,"
As was said repeatedly in the Season of the Splicer:
Guardians Make Their Own Fate.
We will subvert the prophecy or foil the Witness and Rhulk's plan. And Savathun may yet have a part to play in this. Her shell may have died, but her Ghost still lives. And where there is a Ghost with Light, its' host may return.
exactly what I was thinking, this prophecy would be a great way for bungie to pull us for circle at the end of this saga
I agree, hell, ive consistently made this joke with my friends; "I know we're supposed to have this suspension of disbelief when it comes to big bad villains in destiny, but at the end of the day, imma shoot at it a bunch and it's gonna drop a gun for me"
Isnt that line more associated with VoG
The issue with not trusting prophecies like this is that we’re forgetting how far most prophecies have already come and how accurately they’ve detailed the story. I urge you to read the dark future lore book and think about how much of that has already come true
@@PrismaticGeyserr It is, but we're dealing with a source of Paracausality here; and what is the Vault of Glass associated with, but Paracausality messing with time.
You know, there's something that's been playing around in my head for a while now, ever since the reveal... could the Witness be named that way because it's literally already witnessed the end? Like, it's a retrocausal entity whose working from the future backwards into the past, ensuring its victory? It could explain why the Light is such a thorn in its side, because it can let individuals create their own fate, which could potentially be free from the Witness's own enforced one.
The Witness gaining access to the Light could mean it guarantees its victory in truly every possible way, and why the Traveler chose beings that could wield both Light and Darkness together (being the Krill and Humanity). If that's the case, the Traveler really needs to be protected at all costs for the sake of reality itself, and explains why it chose to run in the past all the time, the stakes are just too high.
Very cool theory!
Light and Dark have played this game for eternity and the light is actually just a term for a good, darkness for bad. These beings are advanced but maybe do this for another reason, maybe just to create. The Traveler came to us not because panic and flee but it has a plan. They knew the sisters were crucial part because they always played the game but Darkness came in first with a new plan, a new path that the Traveler has not seen or accounted for... or maybe it did. We shall see when the light falls.
I agree, I was always wondering why "the witness" is called "the witness"; what exactly is it that they are a witness of?
Sounds like Avengers Endgame Thanos lol. But in all seriousness it's a good point.
I like this theory a lot, actually sounds accurate
Witness drinks Traveller? Hmm this reminds me of the end cutscene quote. "Your pale heart holds the key"
Literally everything reminds people of that, watch it he nothing in lightfall or final shape LMAO
@@kissushoto you think that the narrative team put a random line in there for nothing?
@@kissushoto tbf a lot of this so far is like a chekhov’s gun. Why put it in game if it served no purpose? Especially something as resource heavy as a cutscene
@@kissushoto bungie are in their bag atm in terms of story i dont see it being a waste. Look at all the small lines from Savathun over the last year and how they hold way more impact now. Especially in a cutscene that is revealing THE major villian the whole game has lead to since D1.
@@jakesanders0423 he does, I don't know how his brain functions this inefficiently
I feel like the last symbol being a symbol not in the raid makes the most sense. Not only do most of the remaining symbols not make sense, but the rest seem anticlimactic. Is the Witness’ grand plan really to destroy the tower? Something the cabal could do in a few hours? I think it’s alluding to an entity in the traveller similar to the witness, as was said
Well you have to remember that without the Tower, the Guardians lose a place to rally on mass, with the tower completely destroyed this could lead to massive civilian casualties within the city.
It could instead be interpreted as 'the Witness kills the City' and (by proxy) most of Humanity, which would be a very interesting place to take the story.
@@Azrael_Equinox I think even wiping out all of humanity would be too small.
@@Azrael_Equinox wouldn’t it be wiser to kill the Traveller’s defenders before attacking? Or once the traveller is gone the city will be defenseless so let the strongest survive, as is the witness’ belief?
Ultimately we can’t say for certain what the witness is going to or is planning to kill. Could be the city, could be the traveller entity, could be one particular thrall that it really hates, who knows
@@GrayvesX yeah, remember, the hive has slaughtered possibly millions of civilisations across millions of years. A civilisation that has one city left would easily fall without the light
Well this has been what the Witness, Rhulk and even Calus after his communion did with the races they found; they caused planetary genocide, then adopt the survivors as disciples (or Shadows in Calus's case).
The only exceptions to this were the Hive and the Scorn; the Hive because them getting a hold of the light would have made them far to powerful (just look at Savathûn suddenly becoming strong enough to imprison Rhulk, one of the most powerful entities in existence, in her *own* Throne World) and the Scorn, which were more of a happy accident that they could add to their Taken legions.
I honestly think it could be Witness Kills Grief. The darkness in its weird logic has always talked about how it's saving the beings it kills from further suffering. It feels right up it's ally to "kill grief". The Witness even says that it blames the Traveller for the death.
That's what I was thinking.
That could be interpreted as genocide.
@@Rai0711 oh 100% the witness intends to wipe out almost all life. Genocide is their MO
It kinda makes sense because the Witness is in fact equating life and death as something that needs to be stopped together, implying that life and death mutually form grief, which they mainly aim to destroy. With Light mostly representing life, and Darkness mostly representing death, the force that weeds out the weaker forms of the Light-made life, and the duality binding Light and Darkness, my guess is that the Witness is trying to make both Light and Darkness annihilate each other, ending the grief born from this dualistic struggle and reaching the "Finality" or "Final Shape" in whatever form it's supposed to be represented. If there was no Light, Darkness would serve no purpose, it would be just useless and ultimately non-existent. The Witness understands that and sort of embraces this self-destructive tendency, which is quite ominous honestly. It means that they are aiming for a greater good and purpose of some sort, or maybe fulfilling the intrinsic design of the Darkness itself. While Light only wants to upbring and raise life to see what happens when no forces like the Darkness interfere to try "fixing" it by weeding out some part of it, exhoing back to the Gardener/Winnower metaphore.
or savathunw
The Saint 14 eulogy bastion dialogue is super important
He says there was a ‘final confrontation’ where bastion is shattered and we die
He says “traveler help us” meaning it must likely still be alive
He wishes we could hear him and says “if you’re still out there, then come back and we’ll kill what killed you… or die trying”
I feel like Saint would know the witness by the time we have a final confrontation so maybe something different kills us, because he describes your killer without a name
So I imagine this new version our guardian might be in a paradox or smart enough to escape it and beat the final enemy for good
The fact he has time to prepare a funeral and grave shows there must be some level of peace to where he can take time to give us a funeral too
That second to last part really reminded me of the opening d1 cutscenes. I'm not sure if it's my memory or just my head cannon but all the cuts between the different shades of mars and stuff are the skipping around. Hundreds of different time lines and the one it lands on is ours.
Personally the issue here is this could be from Elsie Bray's Original timeline which we have changed in ours.
@@bugmanmaster6650 totally agree with you, don’t know if it was intentional at the time but it works now
@@Kaida760 I actually thought about that but if we get bastion from our own dead body it makes me wonder if it will be a paradox where it leads up to the same events, it just seems too important, especially because of how hard the bastion quest puzzle was. Timelines are strange in destiny so I’m not sure.
It also reminds me of the curse of Osiris sparrow description
Curse of foresight: “But will my actions avert the futures I see, or cause them?” - Osiris
Sorry to interject with no knowledge. But speaking of the Bastion…where the hell is mine? I did it all the puzzle. The quest…I had it. Fired the damn thing and then…I don’t have it anymore. Any ideas?
i think the scariest posibility is that the last missing glyph may stay blank because he has no particular target. does the witness follow the darkness and its stance of the stong will survive? as he has his own agenda, his target may simply be..... everywhere
I agree. The way Rhulk talks about the witness' motives, i think he's truly omnicidal.
I think the final symbol is "Life" which The Darkness essentialy wants to destroy.
Called it when HELM first was added to the game, HELM is a space ship, and we’re going to leave the tower in it. Weather that’s because it’s destroyed or not I didn’t know at the time, but this seasons redesign has me more convinced HELM is the bridge of a ship, perhaps comparable in size (or even a captured and retrofitted) cabal ship from the invasion during the red war. Perhaps we’ll escape the destruction of the tower, perhaps we’ll leave our own system for other reasons. But HELMs location overlooking a hanger like area, the gantry ways and umbilicals we can see from the windows, and that it seems to be separate from (not built into) the hanger makes me think space ship
Yoooo
Bro- What if.. This is most likely a stretch, but what if they're slowly bringing in new people to take place of.. Let's say, Zavala. So, when the city finally falls, we are commissioned to the Helm and forcefully sent out of reach from the darkness while Zavala and Ikora remain. We're like a backup plan, too important to lose if they fail? Or maybe they succumb to the darkness and our next few raids or story missions are to bring them back to the light before everything is lost? Or maybe we have to kill them/lose them and have the new commanders like Crow.
I've been waiting for Zavala to finally kick the can. It's felt like he's been riding that line and he seems to know it. It's only a matter of time before he gets booted.
2 lies 2 truths. Your destiny lies beyond this solar system :}
So Destiny is just a re-telling of Gurren Lagann:
Cayde is Kamina
Savathun is Lord Genome
Caiatl is Viral etc.
@@GuzzlingDuck nah he’s getting married to caitial, but ikora might be killed, btw it’s a joke they both might die
I question the Witness's clairvoyance. A big part of the Witch Queen story is that Savathun tricked him, and made the Witness leave Earth during the Fall. How does all of this tie together?
Yea the Darkness has only ever shown remembrance of the past. Deepsight and all that. The Light looks forward. We get actual prophecy in the light and visions of future events like we've seen in cutscenes. I don't think The Witness is a being that breaks that rule and can see in both directions, so to speak.
savathun knew the light would choose her since technically she was worthy from the start
The problem with knowing about future events isn't about them coming true, it's the realisation that you don't know if any actions (or inaction) you take after it, will cause it to happen
The Witness foreseen the Traveler going to earth, and the Traveler dying on earth, the Witness however knew that what happened on Neptune with the veil linking to the Traveler would happen (because there was a prophecy of it the Witnesses interaction with the Traveler), so the mindfuck here is did the Witness assume his initial attack on earth would create the link (the Witness HAD the veil but Sav stole it and put it on neptune)
Or was the Neptune events the true event the pyramid prophecy spoke of
So TLDR, it doesn't matter that Sav tricked the Witness, the pyramid prophecy still happened
I think that there is some sort of being inside the Traveller. We've always sort of treated the Traveller as a being in and of itself, but there's no denying it appears to be mechanical, or technological. Similar to the Pyramids, which are 'piloted' by and perhaps created by the Witness, a being who is sort of like the paragon of Darkness, I bet there is a similar being who is inside the Traveller, and the orb we see is actually its ship. This would jive with the Witness' statement in the final cutscene about the "pale heart (of the Traveller) holding the key".
I think this prophecy is saying the Witness plans to 'drink' or somehow assimilate the Light and kill his counterpart, the being inside the Travaller, of which we currently have no knowledge.
He just pops open a curtain like the Wizard of Oz?
Didn't Fenchurch say he went into the Traveller once?
@@zacx6666 "Hi guys, it's me, Joe Traveller. What, you didn't think I was a big floating orb did you? Weirdos. Got anything to eat?"
I agree with this, and I also believe that to be the final line of the prophecy wall. There is a glyph for the Witness and several of the Darkness, but there is no glyph for the entity behind the Light despite the glyphs representing it. Perhaps we will learn of their identity within the coming year?
the speaker’s mask
I have a crazy theory so hear me out. What if there is no final glyph as in reality it means "Everything"? We know the witness wants to enact The Final Shape, and during the Rhulk fight, sometimes you'll hear him say something like: "Your destiny is to become the final shape, and that shape is nothing". What if the last line is just the end of the universe as it would read "Witness Kills Everything"?
I mean, the official name for a symbol left blank is, Dormant. It could be a nickname for the Traveler, since it only acted like what, Three times since it first sent out the ghosts. It blew away Ghauls Hold, Healed itself, and gave us the new supers in Forsaken. It gave crow the dreams but that's mainly it. The Traveler hasn't done much, and by most standards has been completely dormant other than pretty much moments where it's had enough and fought back a little. So it could mean kill what is Dormant, and without the Light there isn't much to stave back the darkness. So therefore is also means everything.
This is kind of what I'm thinking but I think they would use the symbol for grief to follow how the witness claims he's here to end suffering
Might be nothing but if you complete shattered throne solo flawlessly you get an emblem. That emblem is a grey ring crumbling. It looks EXACTLY like the "blank" symbol in the obelisks/ glyphs frames (but there they are not crumbled) might be relevant?
lmao
"The only shape you'll take is that of death."
What if the Glyph isn't lit up because it literally means nothing. It's nothingness or the end of all things not the witness or the darkness. Their final plan to wipe out all existence
The witness will kill nothing, and in killing nothing, he kills everything. "Enough death. Enough life."
or perhaps it will be available in the master version of the raid?
Was going to say this lol. Essentially that it could be "anything or everything"
He knew 2 years ago
I’m telling you, in the final raid we must enter the traveler and kill rahool. Turns out the darkness just wants revenge from when rahool didn’t give him a gjally.
Just a bunch of edge transits hahah
Lol
half right
When Osiris' exile ended, he spoke about seeing a vision in the Infinite Forest of the City covered in darkness with a Pyramid standing where the Traveler its; And then there was that FWC Prediction where they saw hundreds of ships fleeing Earth, those who couldn't keep up were left behind.
We know the next Expansion is "Lightfall" and it shows a Pyramid overtop of the Traveler, we know the Expansion after that is "The Final Shape" and most importantly we know that there will still be a story after that. The Final Shape just concludes the Light & Darkness saga.
I believe the typical Final Shape in the Flower Game before the Gardener and Winnower jumped in was the Vex, this all consuming thing that transforms everything it encounters into itself.
And I believe the Witness will "Take" Earth, the only place in the Sol system that didn't need terraforming from the Traveler, and the only place that contains every type of enemy aside from the Vex, he'll take the planet the same way he took Mars.
The "Final Shape" of the universe is the concept that the only living things left are extremely powerful and immortal beings that won't have children. No death, and no Life
Minor nitpick, but Earth was actually not the only place that the Traveler didn't terraform. If I remember correctly, according to the journal of Clovis Bray, the Traveler did not touch Titan, Enceladus, and Europa, possibly because they all had their own native life, but possibly because something darker lurked beneath.
I remember that from a strike in the infinite forest our ghost had a vision of the future. He saw the traveler, but it was very, very small. He saw this when Sagira used our ghost’s shell.
@@contra8053 i believe the final shape will be a world without light darkness. Every life will get back to how it was supposed to be. Like real life, we live we die.
I dont think anyone is expecting a happy ending in Lightfall. But i also think the Witness and Rhulk are fully confident of their victory, so this Prophecy being Darkness Propaganda is also a posibility for me.
and maybe this propaganda not only take place in the game, but in your own and really life like " 'europe' frozen by stasis" commune with the darkness " times, and really accept it in you...
@@nallwan1768 what? 💀
@@tyruu3265 the choice made in VG are as important as in life.
what theyre proposing by the media is like a agreed from you.
if there's one message that's stuck with me since the start of D1, its "guardians make their own fates" from Vault of Glass, and to this day i believe in that statement
I mentioned as much in my own comment on this video. It popped up in the Season of the Splicer when we were hijacking the Vex Simulation.
Never forget; We have allies of our own. The House of Light and Mithrax. Empress Caiatl and the Cabal. Perhaps even the Lucent Brood and Savathun ( Side Note: No way have we seen the last of Savathun.) If it's a war the Witness wants then it's a war he will get.
Given the power of Rhulk and how The winess seems to have an uncountable number of disciples (maybe even Calus) in those ships even with armies, and how probably the power of the disciples came from The witness meaning they have more power than those disciples
I think it's safe to assume that we're (or at least not the young wolf) totally fucked up
@@rrovba Well there is also the question that begs to be asked, since Rhulk was the First Disciple, was he the strongest? We defeated him, and a prophecy is just that, a prophecy a prediction, nothing set in stone, and with Guardian’s paracasual nature, fate or designs cannot hold onto us, though this prophecy could be paracasual in nature as well
It.
I think grief is a very probable glyph to fill in the last remaining piece of the prophecy. I can’t remember exactly but the witness in their cutscene says something along the line of “no more death, no more life”
Fun fact, if you stand on the left side stairs you can line up the shadows to where it makes a pyramid inside the traveler symbol above it all. The same symbol for Lightfall.
So here's some spinfoil theory's from that info :
I think the 3 leading options for the missing symbol on the wall are:
1:The tower for the reasons said in the video.
2: Grieve, as if I'm recalling correctly the darkness' goal of making the final shape is to relieve all suffering.
or 3: Give: the word by itself makes me think of the witness killing our ghost, but the symbol looks like it's the fallen receiving the darkness. The witness is a user of the darkness, but he is not the darkness itself. I could see him drinking the light and killing the darkness so he himself becomes the final shape.
Something unrelated, I'm wondering if it's possible the lucent hive are capturing light to use in that ritual ro resurrect Oryx. Why else would Saturn be on the star map and why Savathun mentions in her Two Truth, Two Lies, "The Taken King will rise again. Just putting it out there.
Saturn's probably there for King's Fall to have a destination node when it releases in 2 season's time. Besides both Mars and Jupiter and are on the destination map and they are not available for exploration (well Mars is but that is entered through the Throne World destination so my point still stands).
@@Azrael_Equinox but then why not have it in the legacy raid node like they did for VoG?
@@redohealer2 that's true it would just be under legacy
@@Azrael_Equinox tbf it could be locational context for Nessus (7066 Nessus is past Saturn irl) and Dreaming City (Though I had thought it was in Asteroid belt thanks to Tangled shore Ceres flavor text), as well as the possibility of Dreadnaught returning too since it's still in Saturn's rings.
Jupiter had an image in directory for D1 but most of it involved was for lore entries.
I have a feeling Saturn is on the map for the same reason Jupiter is
The raid ghost shell seems to show there is a voice in the light, too. Or something behind it.
Even if the traveler falls it matters but all isn’t lost.
“The light lives in all places and all things; you can block, even try and snuff it out, but the light lives on.”
The speakers words we heard at the start, the speakers words we shall hear in the end.
I like your hypothesis through the symbols, the idea of the "darkness" or more accurately the witness, who seems to simply use the dark to get closer to it's goal, is going to harness the light to become it's true final shape, which only makes sense if you think about it, to become true harmony and the ultimate life form, to be it's perfect specimen for life, it will have to be both aspects, not just the outlying watchful eye, it will need to become both light and dark, it was pushing us toward that same goal, trying to see what else was worthy enough to be it's true definition of life's finality.
Oo i like this Theory yes yes
Then the whole story of Light vs Dark dies. The Light doesn't believe in the final shape so the Light would not need to be acquired to become it. This is proven in Unveiling.
It makes sense, but there are too many things that we don’t know… for example why and how does the witness have total control over the darkness? Why there isn’t someone/something that does the same thing with the light? Also our guardian has proved to be the strongest being in the universe at the moment… we are the only entity that can control both light and darkness and we have beaten everything we have faced. Also the fact that we still don’t know anything about the traveler really annoys me.. why in the hell didn’t anyone try to enter inside the traveler or at least do something with it?
There's been leaks that the city would be destroyed in lightfall and that the new social space would be a "capital ship" so I think tower has some merit to it
Where do you found it?
Been following these vids (since I haven't done a single raid at all) and with each new vid you could sorta feel Byf's excitement for the lore increase lmao
Idk if there's enough evidence to form a theory/hypothesis, but could we see the return of our other vendor friends, Sloan, Brother Vance, and Asher Mir? Considering we see the return of Mars and Asher Mir in the form of the blued eyed harpy, perhaps Sloan and Vance are somewhere close? Does rhulk, Savathun and/or the witness know where they are?
I’m wondering if they could return, but return Taken.
correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure sloan is straight up dead
@@RJL-bp1jc she might be. I thought she found some Darkness armor embedded with Hive Magic and charged straight at the pyramid and we lost contact with her and Titan after that.
I might be making that up though, but I thought I heard or read that somewhere.
@@jme-james I'd not be surprised she took down another Disciple of Witness all by herself.
I'd also not be surprised if Asher somehow gains control of the Vex Collective and overrides their final shape directives.
I really like the idea of Savathun coming back to life with the Vanguard's permission and then working with us as uneasy and temporary allies (like we were with the Cabal at first)
I can't wait for Lightfall and Final Shape, this DLC has my hyped!
I'm genuinely excited for Lightfall. Witch Queen has opened the way and I guess it's up to us to follow that path.
I hope there's a huge battle much like the final mission of the Red War. I mean the light has the Guardians, the Awoken, a potential ally in the Cabal Empire, The house of Light. With the Darkness having Xivu Arath and the Hive, the Scorn, the Taken. The only factions left are basically the rest of the Fallen Houses and the Vex. I feel that when it comes to Lightfall, the Fallen may break up with some houses joining the Darkness and some perhaps joining the Light. The Vex however, are difficult to pin as they seem to be neutral party. Though maybe during Lightfall or even the upcoming seasons, maybe we'll go and potentially ask for a truce with them.
I honestly have no idea what could happen but I'm sure it will be a blast in the months to come.
Maybe one season will be about "convincing" the Vex that allyship with us is the mathematically best solution that will boost their odds of survival
Sheer speculation, but "Tower" would be my current bet for the last symbol. If I can be a little meta here, if Lightfall brings about a series of awful events that result in the end of the Vanguard and/or the Last City (I'm assuming here that "Tower" could symbolize either), it could start a brand new status quo for whatever comes next, and would be a great setup for new stories.
Humanity struggling to survive, once again shattered in tribes. The Guardian being even less beholden to Light = Good, Darkness = Bad. Even a plot like the Guardian helping unite Savathun's brood, the House of Light eliksni, Caiatl's Cabal, and the remainders of Humanity to fight against the Witness. A lot could come of this (tragic) possibility.
Remember the pale heart part of the end cutscene from the campaign
Absolutely LOVE your content, every time an expansion is released your videos are one of the things I look forward to most!
This seems to relate back to Beyond Light and the DSC. Maybe Elsie's vision of a lightless alternate future isn't "alternate" - it's just our future after the Black Fleet wins, but the details in her timeline are different because she keeps cycling through it trying to get different outcomes.
i can’t be the only one that gets sad knowing we’re getting close to the end right? i actually get emotional a little bit cause this game is part of my life now and i don’t want it to end
It’s not going to end after the Final Shape, as Bungie has confirmed that there will be more story after that point. The Final Shape is just going to end the story of the Light and Darkness
still plenty of stories out there, hell i hope they really focus on the nature of paracausality and the nine again after the light and dark story is finished out
Idk if anybody has pointed it out or if it even matters but the fixed the hole that was in the tower on the left as you walk up to Zavala.
Remember that piece of lore from D1 that describes a fleet jumping through space? The one that appears to be the remnants of the last city? With all the faction and vanguard banners, ships being lost as they can no longer make the jump?
I’m certain that we will lose the last city, for good. We might win the war but we’ll lose everything in the process. And winning the war likely comes at the cost of we the Guardian sacrificing ourselves in a way the ends the cosmic war between light and dark. That, is our Destiny.
Something to reinforce this idea even more is during season of the dawn (I think) with the corridors of time and how Saint 14 is making a speech over the Guardian's grave.
Imo is it possible that our Guardians died, like you said, sacrificing themselves to end the cosmic war.
The only one that doesn't make sense out of all the glyphs that could be in there is remember. Why would we need to remember? Only thing I can think of is, like others are saying is the HELM is a ship we use to escape, but by that point the Witness has won. There's no more city, the traveler is defeated/dead. There's no way for us to defeat the Witness. . . .unless we go back in time.
The Exo Stranger has done it numbers of times im pretty sure she can show us how to do it. Redoing events to alter outcomes would put us in a place where we'd have a lead on the Witness, stopping certain enemies from existing and stopping certain allies from dying would switch the tables in our favor. But that's just what I think would be the outcome if remember is the last one.
I think another interesting interpretation of the absent final symbol would be that its absence signifies a degree of indefinite-ness, and therefore, universality. Without the Light counterbalancing the Darkness, there is little holding the Witness and its disciples back from killing everything and rapidly ushering in the final shape.
I think that the final symbol is "Life". And I think that we, or the Guardian, are the similar entity to the Witness pn Traveller's side. Remember that Destiny tells the story of one Guardian (player character) that's somewhat special and not multiple Guardians.
To me, IF, it is one of the remaining symbols, I feel like it is most likely grief, the Witness believes it is freeing us from a burden the traveler has placed on us
So I don’t know if anyone else forgot but we have a possible other ally in the works in the form of the captain and the Nessus vex collective I mean it’s a possibility and we have yet to have an interaction with them since season of the splicer so who knows we might be in for a side sweep of story
Byf, there are lingering symbols during the Preservation mission after the mission is complete in the rooms that you can enter that can be organized like the obelisk glyph order: remember, stop, and drink. It was there each time I’ve run that mission and tried to enter it in the room where you can activate the glyphs to no avail. Not sure what that entails, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on this and if there’s any connection to drinking the light.
Maybe bungie just wants you to stay hydrated
Stop in the first room tells you which monument to enter next.
Remember and Drink with neutral in the middle tells you to enter the door between Remember and Drink.
It's just the mission order.
@@PoopiDScoop Maybe, though we can turn that around to say “remember to stop drinking,” rather than “remember, stop to drink” hahah.
@@aidandavick9545 Ah, that’s neat. Didn’t think of it that way!
"Remember not to have too many drinks." Party advice from the WItness to the Disciple?
Now would be a REALLY good time to revisit some of the lore and story beats from Curse of Osiris and also Beyond Light. We could still win the larger war, but there's a very high chance that Sol and the City are already doomed. There were so many warnings:
The simulated futures of the Infinite Forest, despite Osiris's tireless efforts, always came to the same conclusion about Sol's fate - There was no Light. The sun was dead. The Last City was annihilated, and a massive Pyramid Ship stood where the Traveler once was.
And what of the Exo stranger? Think of how many hundreds of timelines she's jumped through and tried to change, but how does it always end? The Bombardment. The Last City invaded from all sides. Hive, Cabal, Fallen and corrupted Guardians siding with the Witness's forces to assault the walls. The Tower in collapse. The Traveller being smothered in Darkness. The survivors of the Last City fleeing into deep space.
We're in trouble.
The Scorn, Tower, and ascendant plane could be present in the prophecy and they knew those things will happen because of it, steering things that way.
Alternatively, they could just be writing a prophecy as they go.
Seeing all of this new lore and finding out that the Witness commands the disciple, the disciple manipulated the worms, the worms are the hive gods and on down the chain, I cannot help but look back at the lore card for Bad Juju. When Toland said "You think yourself very high up on the pyramid of contumely. If you only knew how high that pyramid goes." first the use of the pyramid imagery, some writer at Bungie *NEEDS* a raise! Moreover it feels like we are finally getting to see the top of that pyramid and it is a truly terrifying pinnacle.
I cant wait to see how we finish the climb.
Keep up the great work Byf always look forward to your videos!!
You are hereby given the title Warlock of Lore. Your in depth study of destiny's lore is what keeps me coming back for more knowledge and understanding with the constant expansion of the destiny universe. Destiny 2 is definitely taking us deeper into the depths of the dark and the questions on how to fight against it get harder to answers. Good work Byf
We might be or it could be rhulk’s prediction/unwavering faith/ fan fiction to the witness.
I know few if any people are gonna read this but I just had a thought come through my head I gotta share. what if we read the prophecy in reverse; by changing like 2 to 3 of the panels the entire meaning is reversed "the witness worships the darkness and loves the scorn and hive. the guardians stop/protect the earth from the entrance of the fleet of pyramid ships. the light flows from the traveler through the commune into the witness." now this part is where things get tricky as I am not sure what goes here but my guess would be that "the vanguard/tower kill the witness"
oh and also be careful of what you eat thin man.
interesting possibility.
Can’t wait to see what the last image of the prophecy is
It's probably empty because the darkness wins so it's empty
Post lightfall the blank symbol clearly means all life in the universe, thts why they left it at witness kills
My guess for the final symbol is “hope”. It fits in with the Witness’s ideology and what Rhulk says about his conversion to the Darkness.
I dont think hope is a symbol
@@citizennozmeda7232 It’s not, which is why it’s not on the wall.
Universe isn't a symbol either. Or lasagna.
@@citizennozmeda7232 Wtf?
@@H240909 so I'm saying there's a lot of words that exist that aren't symbols. If you make up hope as one you may as well make up any word
Always remember guardians make their own fate.
What if the end of Destiny 2 is not a happy ending and we’re just all left wondering around in the collapse 2.0?
Personally I think that the witness will kill multiple of these but in reference to the “finality” part of his and rhulks goals I believe that the ascendant plain is getting destroyed because there is nothing final about it, oryx, savathun, xivu arath and mara all came back from death via the ascendant plain and in getting rid of it will ensure final deaths, a finality to life.
I think the Witness is either gonna take or flat out EAT the Traveller.
If I was to try and predict it I'd say the last symbol is most likely grief, as the witness blames the traveler for all the despair in the universe.
Stop the Guardian? By stop does it mean the Witness incapacitate or outright kill the Guardian? Or, perhaps, try to convince the Guardian to join him and become one of his disciples?
There’s a kill glyph, if it meant kill it would say kill (or if it meant the guardians as a whole, not just us, then it could just mean stop)
Hey byf, i cannot thank you enouh for these videos. You have helped me learn the lore, and especially with the raid info. Ive never done a raid,and i doubt i ever will be able to, as im eternally stuck teaching new players the basics of the game, so thank you so much! And keep up the amazing wonderful work!
who is here after lightfall?
Wouldn't it be strange if Bungie was using some kind of alliteration to forecast the final shape confrontation? Winnower is to witness. Gardener is to guardian. Perhaps It will actually be us that takes on the role of ultimate light bearer to combat the witness? I mean it has to be because we are the ones that interface with the game via characters, but maybe this is a foreshadowing of ascension, through interaction with the 9, splicing into vex space to take down Quria, traveling into the ascendant realms constantly, even waking the traveler during the red war.
So, what weapon are we reforging the Traveler into?
BAZOOKA!
Sword!
OR A FLINGY BALL OF DOOM
A prophecy is merely a plan to the paracausal. Things are certainly about to change, but I think the more the Witness's plan directly includes the guardians, the longer we have to disrupt it. Similarly to how the Witness worked with Savathuun so long that she was able to slip one by him
You said "big brain" was "remember" but isn't it "knowledge"?
It's both.
@@kennyholmes5196 how so? Region/ language dependant?
@@shieldzyLlanbedr It's a picture of the mind. And the mind is used to both know and remember things. Heck, remembering things is a part of knowing things.
@@kennyholmes5196 erm, but I'm talking about the official in game names of the symbols
although it would be fitting to have the last symbol being someone like the hypothetical entity in the traveller, i think theres a much darker and terrifying chance that the last symbol will remain blank because maybe, just maybe, the witness just destroys everything in the universe, including the universe itself, and since no one's gonna be there to be the last symbol of the prophecy, theres a horrifying chance that the prophecy ends at kill, because, well, the witness might just kill everything and everyone so there's no symbol, and if this really is the case then i absolutely love the way bungie has crafted this prophecy
"In a years time the tower won't be there anymore"
WE'RE GOING BACK TO THE FARM BABYYYY
We were running caretaker and someone got Darkness Kill Traveller. Probably just a coincidence but a very cool one.
Of the symbols available in the raid I think the most likely would be Grief, as the Witness sees itself as offering salvation which can be taken as an end to grief and mourning. Certainly Rhulk doesn't seem too upset by the loss of his world and people when he has the Witness there for him.
An interesting thing with the Scorn is that there is a quote in psiops about all the factions being split. The Eliksni house of light and salvation. The Cabal allying with Caiatl and those that do not. The lucent brood and Zivu’s brood. The vex that worship darkness and those that are just doing vex things. And the guardians are using the darkness.
So what about the scorn? Why is Fikrul missing? What if he is commanding a different faction of Scorn? And would he still listen to Crow?
Maybe that empty symbol is empty on purpose. The number 0 has infinite power. So maybe the blank symbol after kill means "Kill everything"
Well, one of my altar of reflection clears in week 1 gave me a different set of truths and lies than the set I've seen discussed in various videos. I don't remember the whole set, but the one that stuck out to me was something along the line of "The Last City isn't the last city."
I knew this reminded me of something! From the Channeling Robes lore tab -
And when Light and Dark meet, universes collapse.
Not something to mourn. Natural order.
But we believe you exist to buck natural order. You always did. Even before the Dark.
Before the Light.
Even if the Witness comes to commune with the Traveler and takes the Light, we're doomed when we say we are.
And I didn't hear no bell.
I personally think "grief" would fit well at the end of the prophecy. It fits with the whole theme of the Witness bringing "salvation" to those subjugated. He will kill grief by killing all life, bringing about the final shape where there is no suffering because there is nobody left to suffer. Also, I wonder if calus has his own pyramid or something now.
I dont know if that will add anything but during the 2 truths, 2 lies, Sav says that "The last city is not the last city", Im not sure if that will add anything but its a thought
The Witness being the Widower and the Traveler being the Gardener, or perhaps containing either of these beings is a really interesting thing..
Post Lightfall, I think the final symbol is Savathun. With everything so far on the wall being true, and with season of the witch being about Savathun rising again, I think it makes sense the Witness will kill her
The nine will come, equip wormgod caress and shoulder charge the witness into the stone age
well, it does sound like the wall was right! we also know the tower (og) and savathun show up in TFS inside the traveler so...
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. After all, Guardians shape their own destiny.
He says no more life no more death your pale heart is the key, he plans to kill guardians, we die and live to protect the traveler. The guardians current existence goes against the sword logic . This is why witness says he’s our salvation in that using the darkness only to protect ourselves. His goal is to drink the travelers light to become stronger, it’s the common major villain ploy
well, i feel like if the prophecy wasnt figured out before this past week, it is pretty easy to say the witness will kill either the tower or grief. given what we just learned about the witness, i fell them killing grief is the most logical thing that would bring about the final shape.
Byf this lines up with Lightfalls logo. Look back at it. It's a triangle inside a circle. Maybe showing the witnesses ship overtaking/defeating the traveler. This stuff is crazy and the reason I love Destiny lore.
My friends thought I was overthinking the symbols! I knew there was something. Thank you to you and other Lore channels!
Since D1, two things I firmly believe will happen / are true :
- there are multiple Travelers and it is not a god as some treat it
- we will leave our system as a 2nd collapse will occur
I mean we have 2 main DLCs left one being called THE FINAL SHAPE it might be the last symbol on the wall
One things for sure, if I wasn't omniscient, I'd sure want my enemies to think I was. And I'd hide scary prophecies around my house that made it seem like I was big brain, all-knowing, omniscient baddie
Oh man.. that shit (3:33) gave me goosebumps. I can't wait to see where it all goes... Years of playing and storytelling and lore finding and byf videos.. all accumulating to The Final shape of this ending.
A star walks into a black hole but doesn't seen phased. The black hole then turns to the star and says, "I don't think you understand the gravity of this situation."
Imagine that the tower gets fixed, then immediately gets destroyed by the witness.
Well the witness did commune with the traveler
Reminds me of Garry somehow.......
"Traveller do you see me now!"........
The first thought I had when seeing the symbols in the raid made me thing "How old are these things?" They could very well be new, or they could point to some level of omniscience from the Witness. All they've done so far would eventually lead to this point, this confrontation with Guardians, and they're well aware of this. The only question is, if our paracausality made it so that they can't predict fully the outcome, but just believe themselves so powerful that they can't lose to us.
That's the thing - the paracausal nature of our powers, and by extension, us, has allowed us to elude fate before to protect Humanity. I believe Lightfall will involve us foiling the Witness or somehow subverting the prophecy. Perhaps we will fail at all points, except the last? When it says "Witness Kill ?", maybe we will kill the Witness before it can begin ushering in the Final Shape and reclaim the Light for ourselves, hence why the last slot of the prophecy is blank.
I find it interesting no one comments on a singular fact, that fact which only Savathun so far seems to have glimpsed as potential.
No entity was ever recorded to use both Dark and Light paracausal powers. Not even Winnower and Gardener in the Unveiling. Certainly not the Traveler or Witness. Some corrupted Guardians had to kill their ghosts and forsake Light before taking up Dark arms.
That is.
Until the Witness committed the ultimate idiocy in a failed bid to tempt and corrupt Guardians. Going against his own dogma, he GAVE Darkness to Guardians. And said Guardians can now use both Dark and Light. Completely unchecked. Said power cannot be taken back, as Rhulk was powerless against them.
Rhulk's own Darkness was leeched off of him, and then used to break his defenses and finally him down. His powers given to him by the Witness.
TAKEN from him. While he was completely powerless to do the opposite.
Witness fucked up and created the ultimate paracausals. He killed himself, he just doesn't know it yet.
Also, what's with the gloom about Tower falling?
It already fell. We just relocated after fucking up the one who did it. Worst case scenario, this tower also falls, we eradicate Witness, no more voice in darkness, Traveler is satisfied, disperses itself and releases the Light to the cosmos. We retain our Dark and Light powers, no more entities behind paracausal forces, 10/10 done, saga over. Victory.
Me and a friend came across the thought that the last symbol in the „story“ told by the wall is „grief“(the symbol with the hole in the human chest)
In the cutscene where the witness was introduced to us he said „You wanted to bring them life but you only brought them death, enough death, enough life, the game is over“ i think that might be a hint that the witness wants to end the circle of grief that life brings with it. It also goes with the sword logic, that life should only exist if it is strong enough. And the traveler is working against the sword logic by helping weak beings to survive. Which (in the eyes of the witness) then in the end leads to more grief. I hope i could share my thoughts even tho my english is not the best since im not native speaker. I really enjoy all of these new discoveries in the Destiny Story. Thank you Byf for making such great videos.
This brings that lore piece to mind:
Where ships donned with faction icons are seen scouring the stars in convoy, I don’t remember it in it’s entirety but still
In the Beyond Light campaign, didn't the dialogue in the missions infer that the darkness was inside us all along, it was just up to us to unlock it? (paraphrasing). Maybe even if the traveller is killed, then it's about us discovering the light is within us and the traveller is merely one method of unlocking your potential. It would explain how some risen are evil and how some evil beings can wield the light.
maybe the final symbol is a symbol with no other alike, (like for example love). maybe the final symbol is *the final shape*? amazing video. thank you!
With this prophecy I see the potential for my personal theories to make sense. With the witness kill possibilities, I believe the ascendant plane may be the missing card. When the ascendant plane is gone, we will by some means lose Mara Sov, but in the process Savathuns throne world will be destroyed. After her throne world is destroyed, we of the traveler will willing resurrect her, then desperately fight alongside her as a fellow guardian of the light, as she will no longer have the threat of trapping the traveler in her throne world and will decide to fight for the light, as the traveler intended.
Also I think that it's worth mentioning that "drink" may not be literal as a passive, "bathe in" or, "be granted". I imagine it's more sinister such as to, "siphon", "steal" or "drain" in more of a vampiric nature.
Through watching these videos and playing through both games; just taking in all the lore and flavor-text, I have to step back sometimes and remind myself, "This all started because someone somewhere wanted to make a fun video game,"