Hey, Byf: if memory serves me right, if you die to Enkaar, the death screen will confirm that he is using a Thorn prototype fittingly called "Proto-Thorn"
@@Alak-Hul_Darkblade Not exactly. Rose before its transformation was just a normal hand cannon with no special perks (it even appears as a Legendary weapon in D2). It only became the Thorn when Dredgen Yor attached Hive bones to the Rose as a sort of trophy commemorating his victory over the Hive. The best assumption I've got is like how we as the player or the Shadows of Yor can craft copies of the original weapon, Enkaar did something similar only to come out with a different design and possibly even something just as powerful as the first Thorn going off his boss fight (if we fail to shoot it in the Enkaar boss, it will just instantly kill us, which seems similar to the OG Thorn's properties of draining the Light out of Guardians to the point they can't revive).
@@Alak-Hul_Darkblade Both are separate weapons, but think I see what you mean there. Wonder if there'd be a moment of making Enkaar's weapon for our own purposes. Just without the extreme danger of its original purpose.
Whispers, madness, nightmares. I know hes dead but that screams Nezarec to me but could be any of the things you listed. Could be so many things and i feel the Crota is someone that makes the most sense out of anyone.
It does seem that Nezarec is quite entangled with everything that happened on the Moon, indeed. He may also transcend death like the Ahamkara, since Savathun killed him during the Collapse. He was on his way to Earth with the Veil before she stole it and hid it away on Neptune. It’s possible that Crota may have been looking for it. It’s also noteworthy that Rezyl Azzir went to the Moon in the first place to “search for nightmares” after the Hive had started to invade Earth by deploying seeders.
@@itzryker6424 I mean even in game, we know almost nothing about the Vex. All we know is that they're time traveling robots so far from the future that they're from the past (I think that I heard that in a previous Byf video).
I really wish we got more expansion on the weapons of hope. I find it really interesting that Lumina seemingly embodies bomb logic in an exact opposite to the way thorn embodies sword logic.
I’ve decided that my Word of Crota is my Titan’s own take on a Weapon of Sorrow: bright white chitin scales prized from the final corpses of Sentinel Hive Titan Guardians, sewn together onto my Seventh Seraph Officer’s Revolver with the darkness of Hive sorcery and the winding threads of Strand on the Deepsight alter beneath the Enclave of Mars, all to drag a tortured sliver of the Hive Guardian’s Void Light into the gun, filling it with agonizing malice and a consuming emptiness that will devour all in its path, both Light and Dark.
To make things more convoluted: There is a subtle connection between Dregen Yor and Xivu Arath, or at least the Wrathborn. In the book 'Call of the Cryptolith' the soon to be Wrathborn hear whispers which correspond to passages from the 7th Book of Sorrow found in 'For every Rose a Thorn' and 'The Book of Unmaking'. It is also said that the Weapons of Sorrow (or at least Necrochasm) are based upon the Hive's understanding of mankind's mastery of war, of which Xivu is the god of, while the 7th Book of Sorrow was found by the Shadows on Yor's derelict ship, either written or transcribed by him. Considering the timeline, it would not be surprising if he was the first source of these insights due to what he became, and Thorn the first Weapon of Sorrow. What is more, the ship was whispering, causing the Shadows' ears to bleed, described as a white noise at the edge of their thoughts - either like the Crypotliths or like the keyholes above Ceres, or perhaps both.
@@xeriphlux1921 She does not, but her Cryptoliths do. I am not saying that she is the one whispering but rather that the magic she uses to corrupt Wrathborn is related to the Weapons of Sorrow and the corruption of Dredgen Yor. It could be something as simple as two (three with the keyholes) metaphorical radio stations broadcasting in a similar frequency range, or it could have deeper connections.
"Manifold" like the manifold on an engine. Its just a collection of passages for things to move through. So it's like a.. hallway full of doors.. and every door opens into other worlds.
I would love for a video to shoutout the ship Unfinal Shapes’ lore entry - "Mine is not a final shape" -Eris Morn. I have loved that ship for years, and it feels like it is finally paying off.
I don't recall that ship but I love flying the Waking Nightmare. The lore in there has Eris already talking of revenge, although she doesn't use that word. "We will make our trauma theirs. They will know what it means to suffer."
One aspect I was hoping to hear more thoughts about was the whole cursed thrall angle. Does the Necrochasm lore entry suggest cursed thrall were created here in our system only after the Hive interacted with the aperture?
I'm very curious about that as well. Because the nature of cursed thralls in and of themselves is very mysterious and we have no lore about them that I am aware of.
it seems to me that whoever it is they are more than likely "experimenting" and they are moving on from the Hive as test subjects to Humanity....just look at Jana-14 and her descend into "crafting". I believe we might see a new armory in the future and it will be sorrow based.
Dang, an exotic quest into an abandoned ship/space station with an unknown entity at it's center. Imagine hearing echoes of maddened screams, seeing ghosts of the maddened crew. Leading to a keyhole that could whisper the most tempting, horrifying and maddening things. You could possibly even hear screamed quotes from the weapons lore as echoes of the past. Similar to the darkness echoes in presage. If that wouldn't be a great addition to festival of the lost, I don't know what would be. Aside from the return of the crucible spider.
the new lore about enkaar is kinda interesting, the fact he was on the shore would say he once served oryx, but if before he was making weapons in a sort of ceremonial rite for crota, that adds some new ideas. was he serving only oryx and his children? or was he more of "free agent" among the hive, making weapons for ANYONE with a high enough standing or acts of triumph?
Seems to me like the lore tab implies he was at one point inside of the Cocytus apertures studying the keyholes, and then went back to the Hellmouth to create the Husk of the Pit/Necrochasm from this knowledge, and then at some point he went back to the outer areas of the system. He could have been working with both Oryx's Hive and Crota's at the same time as a free agent like you suggested. But at the same time, we know that Crota's reach went far beyond just the moon due to Spawn of Crota and Hidden Swarm being in the Prison of Elders back in D1. So he could have been present in the Tangled Shore to extend the reach of Crota's influence. Worth noting at his involvement with the Servant of the Betrothed on Titan also implies some kind of involvement with Savathun's Hive as well.
This and the lore tab for osteo striga make me wish that next season would involve our guardian and shin hunting down hive using weapons of sorrow like the one enkaar had. Also, the weapons enkaar had looks more like a beloved turned into a weapon of sorrow.
Last word...yes, I'd love to do it again...but thorn...HECK NO! I AM NOT DOING THAT STRIKE AGAIN! Though it has been a while and we have got all these upgrades in terms of weapons and powers...eh, I stand by my point. Not interested in that strike.
I remember not finishing the Thorn quest - I think I got it from the kiosk much, much later. I don't remember doing the Last Word quest but I've had it forever so I must have done it. That was before there was a kiosk.
It’s likely the whispers were from Nezarec or Savathun, as both of them were in the Solar system at this time; although Nezarec was killed by Savathun, his mind was imprisoned in the VexNet, which he could have used to broadcast to wherever else a veiled tithe existed. A bone-chilling thought just hit me: Jana-14 is an Exo. Clovis Bray was inspired to make the Exos from communing with the K1 Artifact on the Moon. The Long Slow Whisper. It could be deeply entangled with Nezarec [and the Veil]. “Whispered gifts are promised blades that twist: a liar’s game.” --Nokris ]]]Yor read the shattered one’s journals.[[[
I know this is an older video, and I doubt anyone will see this, but I think it may have something to do with the Cthulhu mythos, be it the fourth party or the Nine, because in the lore entry at the end it says "it is so alien, and it's sendings so bafflingly malformed, that I fear this can only end in madness" for those familiar with the Cthulhu mythos and its monsters should be able to see the similarities with both how the monsters are being described and honestly how Xur looks, what with the tentacles coming out of his face
Honestly, at this point when I think of whispers, I think of Nezarec. I don't know if that would actually make sense in this case, but it's what was in my brain.
Heres a theory If Necrochasm is a weapon of sorrow That means we technically created it whether we creates the original or a copy like we did with thorn idk But that would imply that the Husk of the Pit white weapon we get is like an unfinished weapon of sorrow Which is interesting because if true would meand that we now know that 2 of the 4 known weapons of sorrow were crafted from other weapons I.e Rose and Husk Makes me wonder what weapon Eris used for Touch of Malice and Smg could have been used to created Ostieo Striga My moneys on the immortal due to how toxic it is even without a poisom aspect
Perhaps these apertures are points of alignment. Places that on their own have small pockets to other locations, but when focused and aligned with say a dark triangle ship or perhaps the traveller itself more possibilities may awaken. The idea of the weapons of sorrow has always been something interesting in Destiny. For me Necrotic Grips were a sign that we were going to get a Necrosis subclass, but since strand exists I'm doubtful now. I also thought we'd get a psychosis class related to the nightmares, I doubt that now too.
Hey Byf. I've been digging the the story deep dives into the Weapon's of Sorrow. My question is what about Jana-14? The person corrupted by Thorn, the maker of Necrotic Grips and Osteo Striga. Like where is she? Has she died? When she reappeared in thr lore during The Witch Queen it's been burning in my memory.
As far as we know, she is out there, last thing we knew about her, she was hiding somewhere in the city, possibly making more weapons of sorrow. I'm pretty sure that, just like Shayura's fireteam is tied to trials, and whenever new trials gear drops, we get new lore about them, whenever a new weapon of sorrow (or related exotic armor) drops, we'll get more lore about her.
Something interesting I found regarding the keyholes in the lore, on the PVP map eternity, where point B is. That section of the map is called keyholes, which makes me think the Nine have to be involved.
Recall that Savathuns worm said that after she deceived It, the Witness was "Called back amongst the stars". So, it is possible that there is some "Thanos" level threat out there that we are thus far blissfully unaware of
Your wording is incorrect, the worm actually said "Tides turned. Witness sent away, back amongst the stars." Which is describing the Traveler repelling the Witness & push it back, it's also been clear there's not some random force above the Witness
@@BrazarB "Sent back" still implies TO ME that the Witness might not be the only, or most dangerous threat. Just the most immediate. Just my opinion bud.
I don't think Thanos level threat is a good way to describe it. Because the Witness is the Thanos level threat, the being who we've unknowingly been fighting the entire time. If anything a bigger threat would be more Eldritch
The Last Word/Thorn and Cocytus represent two of my favorite lore 'side-stories' in all of Destiny, and I have to admit that I was *not* expecting Bungie to tie them together with the Necrochasm of all things. But I am here for it, and am super excited to see if this leads somewhere interesting! As an aside, as much as I want the Nine to be involved, I don't see it as terribly likely. One of the main motives of the Nine (whose own goals do not always align between them) has been to understand the Light. Spurring the creation of weapons to end Light doesn't seem like a strategy that's very conducive to this. Sure, there would be something to learn about the Light from how it fades, and we know thanks to the Red War that the Nine aren't above putting Guardians in harm's way to learn about the Light. The thread is there, but it's weak. Only time will tell for sure though, I suppose...
I definitely think it was the witness, the witness always whispers when he speaks, and every time he spoke to us directly I would describe it as whispering. Then again, the worm gods also whisper, as referenced in the name of the weapon “whisper of the worm”. Ahamkara also whisper, as described in the stories where the bones talk to someone.
I think there's a really cool storyline for the Osmium King (Oryx's papa) to come back. It's a massive stretch given the narrative surrounding his death on Fundament, but the idea of fighting some Dark Souls-esque OLD old Hive god sounds so cool
You've had tier lists of raid/dungeon bosses, could you have a tier list of guardians that exist/existed. Ikora besting Shaxx, Osiris having tons of clones, etc.
Sounds unlikely that the Witness would have been the one whispering to the hive considering they were suggested using the cursed thrall power. One of the only original destiny enemies that didn't get a taken variant were cursed thralls so perhaps the Witness doesn't see them befitting of the final shape?
Hope one day what was once enkarr's "Proto-Thorn" becomes a fully fleshed out weapon of sorrow we can wield. Could even be a sniper or lfr and be the first non-primary wep of sorrow
Is there a chance the whispers were Oryx? Trying to use it to arrive in the system earlier and then after crota dies and the manifold ends has to take the long way? And that’s how he knows crota died Oryx being the one who instructed the other hive in the making the weapons of sorrow might make sense if he had already had the plan to become Touch of Malice.
Here's a worrying thought; the Touch of Malice may be made out of Oryx, but it was designed by Eris Morn. So, was it actually designed by something else and whispered to Eris, and is that thing, as Byf asks, a Hive, the Nine, the Witness, or (as I suspect) something else?
The idea of some third entity or even the Nine isn’t particularly far fetched in my opinion. With the final shape we are coming to the end of the light and dark saga of destiny and moving onto something yet unarmed for the franchise this could be bungie’s way of teasing the introduction of a new antagonist or force that we will face after the defeat of the witness. Or it could just be Crota but it’s at least interesting to consider :)
Highly highly recommend the lore book related to The Nine "Dust" most particularly what Byf is referencing is from "The Gate" entry; the entry Declaration with The Nine speaking gives something to think about as well. The entire Dust book along with the other Joker's Wild Nine book "Ecdysis" are excellent and imho some of the best lorebook stories in Destiny 2 especially related to The Nine. Seriously check it out if you want a good read
This might have been already cleared up. But what happened to that being the Eliksni talked of that watched over them, this was during Season of the Lost I believe :))
YESS. I am so glad you covered this lore. I commented about it on a previous video so it makes me happy to see my request fulfilled. I don’t personally think Crota was responsible for the whispers in the Cocytus keyholes, because Enkaar mentions him earlier as separate from them. Plus, considering Enkaar and Xyor for that matter essentially worked for Crota, why would they get knowledge from him from a separate phenomena? I think it’s either some other mysterious entity, like you suggested, or maybe even one of the worm gods, like Ur, the Ever-Hunger - the whispers are described as “gluttonous” after all. It’s connection to the gateway of Cocytus and the implications there are wild. Speaking of that, I wonder if these whispers could be related to the whispers associated with the Weapons of Sorrow themselves. They are known to whisper to their wielders, and also have a degree of sentience. Could these whispers all be from the same kind of source? Finally, I don’t think it’s impossible that Xyor’s “betrothed” and Enkaar aren’t the same character. One is an acolyte and the other is a Knight, and the timeline doesn’t seem to line up, but: Hive are known to be able to change shape, both growing larger and having adaptations to survive as well as changing forms after death, like Kelgorath. Plus, it’s worth remembering that it was both Xyor’s curse, and the bones of her betrothed that Azzir grafted to his Rose, that corrupted him and created Thorn. Maybe Xyor divorced with Enkaar due to him being defeated by Azzir due to the Sword Logic. And Enkaar himself wielded a “Proto-Thorn” and was known to create weapons of sorrow. What if they worked together to decipher the Cocytus whispers ti create Necrochasm (or rather Husk of the Pit) and corrupt Rezyl Azzir?
Hive Lore is without doubt the best this game brings & everything connected honestly! Dredgen Yor is what hooked me, the Hunter Cloak in D1! The arguments about who it could be!! All this screams new Dungeon!! Didn't Bungie mention 2 Dungeons instead of another Raid? What if we get something like this all connected to Xivu, Witness & the creation of weapons that can "kill" the light or potentially dark!?
That's been the lore since Destiny 1. You also could obtain it the same exact way ad Destiny 1. I am kinda new to the Destiny 2 community but in the Destiny 1 community I was a clan leader and mastered the game and played through the DLCs bought them all and was kinda pissed about how the power scale worked with the new DLC weapon vs the original raid and dungeon weapons than they created the year one upgrades due to serious backlash of how weak our exotics and armor was that we worked hard for allowing us to obtain the year one upgrade engrams. My boycott of Destiny 2 until the last DLC and my theory that the game will have the same mechanics is true. I started recently after the Final Shape was released and have been crushing the game heavily so far. A lot of the older mechanics are still in the game which I like a lot because it's very nostalgic.
I think it came from Nezrac himself. The guy is a the “god of pain” and his corpse was on the moon. What was left of it anyway. Perhaps a piece had been left on the station and that is what drove the crew mad. We know that people they held the fragments of him in the past were driven mad
The amount of times I lost that 1v1 quick draw was annoying, so thanks for the reminder on thay Byf. In all seriousness this seems like an interesting new bit of lore, and good video as always
I would've said its the Witness behind the whispers as its the source of the Darkness's corruption, but since Necrochasm is related to Crota, it pushes me more to him
A little off topic, but I hope the other classes get more interactions between weapons and armor, like the warlocks do with necrotic grips. That or the other classes get their own necrotic gripnlike gauntlets, but with different unique effects
Great vid! This is fascinating lore and opens up so much for what may come beyond TFS. As a Greek mythology nerd, just a heads up on the pronunciation of “cocytus,” it’s most commonly pronounced “co-kai-tus”(sometimes you’ll hear co-sai-tus, regardless, both roll off the tongue a bit easier than “cock-uh-tuss”)
My theory so far is this. The whispers are coming from The Deep, and The Deep itself is the realm where the ancient powerful beings that resided in the ascendant plane before The Traveler and The Veil split. The ascendant realm was the main place of existence. A metaphysical abstract where form and consciousness were intertwined and essentially limitless. When the Traveler and Veil separated, it created a type of limbo between the physical and metaphysical where the ascendant beings fight and evolve. They've been the whispers in the minds of beings from the beginning of the universe. The Witness's victory in bringing the two back together will be the first stepping stone in opening up limbo and let the creatures of The Deep seep through. Including the TRUE Taken masters whose whispers revealed the knowledge to the Witness and later inspired Oryx to create The Tablets of Ruin. The final shape is the promise whispered to The Witness to manipulate them. He learns in the end that the promise is a deception. The final shape isn't letting them shape the world as they see fit. The final shape is about the key/means to opening the prison the ascendant beings have been trapped for billions and billions of years since the universe began in its Big Bang (I guess). The patsy who brings about the next great war where Guardians and allies have to save our universe from The Deep's ascendant beings. Okay, sorry for length. I'm just thorough with my thoughts is all.
There are beings that sound like they'd fit into that kinda environment perfectly described in awoken lore. The apheleon, and the harbingers, creatures either made of reverberating radiation and plasmas, or that give off said substances and waves, and seem to slip in and out of reality.
@@suruxstrawde8322 Could throw in beings composed of the elements themselves that have sentience once the Traveler and Veil's rejoining affects the universe's with metaphysical properties. Void, solar, arc, stasis, and strand manifesting agency and we have to relearn to channel them as sentient allies going forward and not just mindless tools to use as we please. More subclass specials where we summon elemental familiars that fight alongside and assist for a short period when dealing with extremely powerful ascendant enemies from The Deep. I'm just spitballing ideas now that seem fun to me. The whole light physical vs darkness memory/consciousness duality thing entertains me with ideas. 😁
All I can think of if it's beyond our knowledge... is something like the King in Yellow. A being beyond our understanding and holds a play that drives everyone who reads it mad.
Manifold is a mathematical term which refers to a space with some type of geometry (or topology) so a hive manifold sounds like a physical space constructed by the hive i.e. a throne world
My new headcanon is that some strong acolyte, knight, or wizard was sittin in the lines with a really cool gun idea and took the chance to make it a reality. Imagine "OoOoh Master GunSmith, you should make an auto rifle that explodes things it kills, OoOoh."
Hi, so I’ve said it before in a previous video you’ve made. Actually pertaining around kelgorath. The judgment of Kelgorath. It breaks the norm for a weapon of sorrow and doesn’t have the visible poison or taken or cused thrall influence that the others do, but by technicality. The creation of that glave, does, in fact, follow the steps of creation of a weapon of sorrow. Food for thought?
there was a video in which byf mentioned the river analogy in the past due to Acheron / Cocytus, I believe it was close to the lore of the glykon but I might be wrong. In that video byf talked also about some theories on how the throne worlds might be connected, I've been searching for that video for a long time but no luck. If anyone knows what I'm talking about please let me know which one is!
My knowledge on the lore specifically is spotty , but what are the chances cocytus aperture is the derelict. I don't know if we've ever even been given an idea of what it actually is, but was it not given to the drifter by the nine? It seems to have some form of portal aspect to it, it's involved with the nine, and has a link to the shadows of yor through drifter. Just an idea
Maybe we should delve into the meaning of what a manifold is. It is an area in math responsible for analyzing and describing how to unfold space. Going from many into 1 or from 1 into many. Flowing from higher dimensional space into lower dimensions. Each point has its coordinates in a chart. An aperture may be seen as a lens that can be seen as a boundary space that lids to different dimensions, and the keyholes and keys as a means to mapping how to access those spaces/dimensions. Maybe this does not say much about who is behind the voices but I would say it should be someone below 3 dimensional space. Something you call Hell. Something that Crota tryied to recreate in his base but the real thing would be unfathomable to the human mind because our axis referent would not correlate well to one native of those dimensions. In the ascended plane you need charts too to navigate it. And I would say that the ascended plane is a 4D space
Hey byf this makes me wonder if you can do a video on some of destiny's biggest mysteries that are yet to be solved and could possibly be solved in the final shape
Still convinced there is something above the Witness that actually corrupted its people. The origin of Salvation I think goes beyond the witness. They just took that on as their mission. They didn’t get obsessed until after the Veil. Maybe that’s tied to this. Maybe that’s tied to the Nine.
More weapons of sorrow, more connections to the strange soulfire energy known as corruption. Wonder if that'll become a new energy type in the future by this.
18:03 so I feel the whispers were Crota. An maybe it was a form for Crota to gain tithes. Because right now, I don’t think crota had a form of tithe 🤔 like yes there was conquering over all and his sword but his sword was his logic and not his way of life like how trickery was for Savathun and orix was to take. I could see it.
A Dev did come out and say that it was unintentional and that it has no correlation to a new subclass, it probably is actually related but best to just assume they're right
I’m wondering if the Aphelion have anything to do with trying to come through the Apetures. After all, didn’t the Awoken say that we definitely don’t want to face one since it would just be doom to do so or something?
![Solo Flawless Root of Nightmares Raid on Hunter [Destiny 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/O8DsxAH__JM/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey, Byf: if memory serves me right, if you die to Enkaar, the death screen will confirm that he is using a Thorn prototype fittingly called "Proto-Thorn"
Memory serving you right there. Was about to mention that exact point.
Would proto-thorn not just be rose?
@@Alak-Hul_Darkblade Not exactly. Rose before its transformation was just a normal hand cannon with no special perks (it even appears as a Legendary weapon in D2). It only became the Thorn when Dredgen Yor attached Hive bones to the Rose as a sort of trophy commemorating his victory over the Hive.
The best assumption I've got is like how we as the player or the Shadows of Yor can craft copies of the original weapon, Enkaar did something similar only to come out with a different design and possibly even something just as powerful as the first Thorn going off his boss fight (if we fail to shoot it in the Enkaar boss, it will just instantly kill us, which seems similar to the OG Thorn's properties of draining the Light out of Guardians to the point they can't revive).
@@Alak-Hul_Darkblade Both are separate weapons, but think I see what you mean there. Wonder if there'd be a moment of making Enkaar's weapon for our own purposes. Just without the extreme danger of its original purpose.
You just triggered my ptsd, I've seen that "killed by proto-thorn" so many times...
Personally I prefer the old description of the weapon.
"Eternity is so close, can you feel yourself slipping?"
Same honestly
I do too, but I'll always appreciate more lore, especially if it's mysterious like this.
@@CloneMalone I'm fine with the new lore, it's great. I just mean that they could have kept the old description and replaced the old lore.
Be neat if it referred to Eternity the place and not just the generic word
Same
Whispers, madness, nightmares. I know hes dead but that screams Nezarec to me but could be any of the things you listed. Could be so many things and i feel the Crota is someone that makes the most sense out of anyone.
It does seem that Nezarec is quite entangled with everything that happened on the Moon, indeed. He may also transcend death like the Ahamkara, since Savathun killed him during the Collapse. He was on his way to Earth with the Veil before she stole it and hid it away on Neptune. It’s possible that Crota may have been looking for it.
It’s also noteworthy that Rezyl Azzir went to the Moon in the first place to “search for nightmares” after the Hive had started to invade Earth by deploying seeders.
Hive lore blows everything else out of the water it’s so well done.
It's not really much of a contest when the other races get barely any attention by comparison.
Torabotol and Riss both have similar stories, and then we barely know anything about the vex
@@itzryker6424 "vex? i barely know her!"
Yeah, vex definitely were broken up with early on and that zombie train was hopped on with glee - I’m not complaining
@@itzryker6424 I mean even in game, we know almost nothing about the Vex. All we know is that they're time traveling robots so far from the future that they're from the past (I think that I heard that in a previous Byf video).
The Cocytus Apetures would be a sick idea for a dungeon imo
Ha you said cocytus
Now you’re thinking with portals
He means the A hole lol isnt that the whole of d2?
The whole story with the Cocytus Apertures give me “Event Horizon” vibes and I’m here for it.
I mean prophecy basically already did the whole “say hi to the nine” thing it just wasn’t cocytus
The Weapons of Sorrow have always been one of my favorite topics in Destiny lore. Glad to see them revisiting this.
I really wish we got more expansion on the weapons of hope. I find it really interesting that Lumina seemingly embodies bomb logic in an exact opposite to the way thorn embodies sword logic.
I’ve decided that my Word of Crota is my Titan’s own take on a Weapon of Sorrow: bright white chitin scales prized from the final corpses of Sentinel Hive Titan Guardians, sewn together onto my Seventh Seraph Officer’s Revolver with the darkness of Hive sorcery and the winding threads of Strand on the Deepsight alter beneath the Enclave of Mars, all to drag a tortured sliver of the Hive Guardian’s Void Light into the gun, filling it with agonizing malice and a consuming emptiness that will devour all in its path, both Light and Dark.
I really hope after the LvD saga that we get a revival of The Nine... i would be awesome to see and learn more about them finally.
To make things more convoluted: There is a subtle connection between Dregen Yor and Xivu Arath, or at least the Wrathborn. In the book 'Call of the Cryptolith' the soon to be Wrathborn hear whispers which correspond to passages from the 7th Book of Sorrow found in 'For every Rose a Thorn' and 'The Book of Unmaking'.
It is also said that the Weapons of Sorrow (or at least Necrochasm) are based upon the Hive's understanding of mankind's mastery of war, of which Xivu is the god of, while the 7th Book of Sorrow was found by the Shadows on Yor's derelict ship, either written or transcribed by him. Considering the timeline, it would not be surprising if he was the first source of these insights due to what he became, and Thorn the first Weapon of Sorrow.
What is more, the ship was whispering, causing the Shadows' ears to bleed, described as a white noise at the edge of their thoughts - either like the Crypotliths or like the keyholes above Ceres, or perhaps both.
Whispers that physically harm minds and bodies are a thing those dark statues on europa did. Sounds like the Winnower perhaps.
It's a possibility, but there is a major issue with that.
Listen to Xivu for 2 minutes, and you understand that she's not a woman that whispers.
@@xeriphlux1921 She does not, but her Cryptoliths do. I am not saying that she is the one whispering but rather that the magic she uses to corrupt Wrathborn is related to the Weapons of Sorrow and the corruption of Dredgen Yor. It could be something as simple as two (three with the keyholes) metaphorical radio stations broadcasting in a similar frequency range, or it could have deeper connections.
Good point, ye it probly is a similar corruption, but the cryptolyths optimized it I'm sure. I like how the wrathborn are xivus mock taken
*Byf* "Don't take everything I say as gospel."
*Me* "Of course, Lore Master."
"No, I think I will."
Lore “Daddy” 😂😂
"Manifold" like the manifold on an engine. Its just a collection of passages for things to move through.
So it's like a.. hallway full of doors.. and every door opens into other worlds.
I would love for a video to shoutout the ship Unfinal Shapes’ lore entry - "Mine is not a final shape" -Eris Morn. I have loved that ship for years, and it feels like it is finally paying off.
I don't recall that ship but I love flying the Waking Nightmare. The lore in there has Eris already talking of revenge, although she doesn't use that word. "We will make our trauma theirs. They will know what it means to suffer."
One aspect I was hoping to hear more thoughts about was the whole cursed thrall angle. Does the Necrochasm lore entry suggest cursed thrall were created here in our system only after the Hive interacted with the aperture?
I'm very curious about that as well. Because the nature of cursed thralls in and of themselves is very mysterious and we have no lore about them that I am aware of.
it seems to me that whoever it is they are more than likely "experimenting" and they are moving on from the Hive as test subjects to Humanity....just look at Jana-14 and her descend into "crafting". I believe we might see a new armory in the future and it will be sorrow based.
Dang, an exotic quest into an abandoned ship/space station with an unknown entity at it's center. Imagine hearing echoes of maddened screams, seeing ghosts of the maddened crew. Leading to a keyhole that could whisper the most tempting, horrifying and maddening things. You could possibly even hear screamed quotes from the weapons lore as echoes of the past. Similar to the darkness echoes in presage. If that wouldn't be a great addition to festival of the lost, I don't know what would be. Aside from the return of the crucible spider.
the new lore about enkaar is kinda interesting, the fact he was on the shore would say he once served oryx, but if before he was making weapons in a sort of ceremonial rite for crota, that adds some new ideas. was he serving only oryx and his children? or was he more of "free agent" among the hive, making weapons for ANYONE with a high enough standing or acts of triumph?
Seems to me like the lore tab implies he was at one point inside of the Cocytus apertures studying the keyholes, and then went back to the Hellmouth to create the Husk of the Pit/Necrochasm from this knowledge, and then at some point he went back to the outer areas of the system. He could have been working with both Oryx's Hive and Crota's at the same time as a free agent like you suggested. But at the same time, we know that Crota's reach went far beyond just the moon due to Spawn of Crota and Hidden Swarm being in the Prison of Elders back in D1. So he could have been present in the Tangled Shore to extend the reach of Crota's influence. Worth noting at his involvement with the Servant of the Betrothed on Titan also implies some kind of involvement with Savathun's Hive as well.
This and the lore tab for osteo striga make me wish that next season would involve our guardian and shin hunting down hive using weapons of sorrow like the one enkaar had. Also, the weapons enkaar had looks more like a beloved turned into a weapon of sorrow.
Man i wish we still had the thorn and last word quests in the game such good quests
Last word...yes, I'd love to do it again...but thorn...HECK NO! I AM NOT DOING THAT STRIKE AGAIN! Though it has been a while and we have got all these upgrades in terms of weapons and powers...eh, I stand by my point. Not interested in that strike.
@@Bloodarcher43 that sounds like a skill issue
I remember not finishing the Thorn quest - I think I got it from the kiosk much, much later. I don't remember doing the Last Word quest but I've had it forever so I must have done it. That was before there was a kiosk.
@@XbaconfordayzX it was really difficult at the time...AT THE TIME.
@@Bloodarcher43 I believe that is still called a skill issue sadly
This sounds to me like if there is a secret exotic mission this season (probably will be) it might just be a weapon of sorrow
It’s likely the whispers were from Nezarec or Savathun, as both of them were in the Solar system at this time; although Nezarec was killed by Savathun, his mind was imprisoned in the VexNet, which he could have used to broadcast to wherever else a veiled tithe existed.
A bone-chilling thought just hit me: Jana-14 is an Exo. Clovis Bray was inspired to make the Exos from communing with the K1 Artifact on the Moon. The Long Slow Whisper. It could be deeply entangled with Nezarec [and the Veil].
“Whispered gifts are promised blades that twist: a liar’s game.” --Nokris
]]]Yor read the shattered one’s journals.[[[
I have been itching for anything on Cocytus, was super excited for this video. :)
I know it's a long shot, but Bungie should come up with a chronology for Destiny at some point after The Final Shape.
I know this is an older video, and I doubt anyone will see this, but I think it may have something to do with the Cthulhu mythos, be it the fourth party or the Nine, because in the lore entry at the end it says "it is so alien, and it's sendings so bafflingly malformed, that I fear this can only end in madness" for those familiar with the Cthulhu mythos and its monsters should be able to see the similarities with both how the monsters are being described and honestly how Xur looks, what with the tentacles coming out of his face
cool implication hits hard
Wonder if Toland will make an appearance soon
hes too busy being a fishing bobber
(yes i know thats not toland but it looks like him ok)
Same I’m binging ALL the Toland dialogue and lore entries to see if there’s any interesting prophecies
"Ironic that they call Him the criminal." RICO charges, Byf. RICO charges.
Honestly, at this point when I think of whispers, I think of Nezarec. I don't know if that would actually make sense in this case, but it's what was in my brain.
Heres a theory
If Necrochasm is a weapon of sorrow
That means we technically created it whether we creates the original or a copy like we did with thorn idk
But that would imply that the Husk of the Pit white weapon we get is like an unfinished weapon of sorrow
Which is interesting because if true would meand that we now know that 2 of the 4 known weapons of sorrow were crafted from other weapons
I.e Rose and Husk
Makes me wonder what weapon Eris used for Touch of Malice and Smg could have been used to created Ostieo Striga
My moneys on the immortal due to how toxic it is even without a poisom aspect
Perhaps these apertures are points of alignment. Places that on their own have small pockets to other locations, but when focused and aligned with say a dark triangle ship or perhaps the traveller itself more possibilities may awaken.
The idea of the weapons of sorrow has always been something interesting in Destiny. For me Necrotic Grips were a sign that we were going to get a Necrosis subclass, but since strand exists I'm doubtful now. I also thought we'd get a psychosis class related to the nightmares, I doubt that now too.
Hey Byf. I've been digging the the story deep dives into the Weapon's of Sorrow. My question is what about Jana-14? The person corrupted by Thorn, the maker of Necrotic Grips and Osteo Striga.
Like where is she? Has she died? When she reappeared in thr lore during The Witch Queen it's been burning in my memory.
As far as we know, she is out there, last thing we knew about her, she was hiding somewhere in the city, possibly making more weapons of sorrow.
I'm pretty sure that, just like Shayura's fireteam is tied to trials, and whenever new trials gear drops, we get new lore about them, whenever a new weapon of sorrow (or related exotic armor) drops, we'll get more lore about her.
Luminar, Thorn and the last word is like the trio: the good, the bad and the beauty
Something interesting I found regarding the keyholes in the lore, on the PVP map eternity, where point B is. That section of the map is called keyholes, which makes me think the Nine have to be involved.
Recall that Savathuns worm said that after she deceived It, the Witness was "Called back amongst the stars". So, it is possible that there is some "Thanos" level threat out there that we are thus far blissfully unaware of
Your wording is incorrect, the worm actually said "Tides turned. Witness sent away, back amongst the stars." Which is describing the Traveler repelling the Witness & push it back, it's also been clear there's not some random force above the Witness
@@BrazarB "Sent back" still implies TO ME that the Witness might not be the only, or most dangerous threat. Just the most immediate. Just my opinion bud.
@@BrazarB I didn't attack you for the correction.
I don't think Thanos level threat is a good way to describe it. Because the Witness is the Thanos level threat, the being who we've unknowingly been fighting the entire time. If anything a bigger threat would be more Eldritch
I knew there was something off with the lore piece of nechrochasm, my clan called me crazy. I'm glad I can understand it a bit more
The Last Word/Thorn and Cocytus represent two of my favorite lore 'side-stories' in all of Destiny, and I have to admit that I was *not* expecting Bungie to tie them together with the Necrochasm of all things. But I am here for it, and am super excited to see if this leads somewhere interesting!
As an aside, as much as I want the Nine to be involved, I don't see it as terribly likely. One of the main motives of the Nine (whose own goals do not always align between them) has been to understand the Light. Spurring the creation of weapons to end Light doesn't seem like a strategy that's very conducive to this. Sure, there would be something to learn about the Light from how it fades, and we know thanks to the Red War that the Nine aren't above putting Guardians in harm's way to learn about the Light. The thread is there, but it's weak. Only time will tell for sure though, I suppose...
I definitely think it was the witness, the witness always whispers when he speaks, and every time he spoke to us directly I would describe it as whispering. Then again, the worm gods also whisper, as referenced in the name of the weapon “whisper of the worm”. Ahamkara also whisper, as described in the stories where the bones talk to someone.
I think there's a really cool storyline for the Osmium King (Oryx's papa) to come back. It's a massive stretch given the narrative surrounding his death on Fundament, but the idea of fighting some Dark Souls-esque OLD old Hive god sounds so cool
I’m so happy my favorite symbiont hive gun gets some new relevance
There is a character in the lore who is known for whispering. We carry a weapon named for that exact trait: The Whisper of Nezerec.
I think it’d be pretty neat if they added new exotic quests in that led to “Purifying” the weapons of sorrow into weapons of hope, like lumina
I immediately thought of Nezarac. If they drove people to madness then that theory has some ground to stand on.
You've had tier lists of raid/dungeon bosses, could you have a tier list of guardians that exist/existed. Ikora besting Shaxx, Osiris having tons of clones, etc.
Sounds unlikely that the Witness would have been the one whispering to the hive considering they were suggested using the cursed thrall power. One of the only original destiny enemies that didn't get a taken variant were cursed thralls so perhaps the Witness doesn't see them befitting of the final shape?
Cursed Thrall are just thrall that undergone some ritual. Taking them would probably result in a normal taken thrall.
I am a man of high standards with particular tastes.
But if Byf does new lore videos, I watch.
Maybe Savathun’s apothecary and spire hold secrets found in the light to make our own, new weapons forged in Light like Lumina; Weapons of Bliss
Hope one day what was once enkarr's "Proto-Thorn" becomes a fully fleshed out weapon of sorrow we can wield.
Could even be a sniper or lfr and be the first non-primary wep of sorrow
Is there a chance the whispers were Oryx? Trying to use it to arrive in the system earlier and then after crota dies and the manifold ends has to take the long way? And that’s how he knows crota died
Oryx being the one who instructed the other hive in the making the weapons of sorrow might make sense if he had already had the plan to become Touch of Malice.
Here's a worrying thought; the Touch of Malice may be made out of Oryx, but it was designed by Eris Morn. So, was it actually designed by something else and whispered to Eris, and is that thing, as Byf asks, a Hive, the Nine, the Witness, or (as I suspect) something else?
If memory serves me correctly, the “plans” for ToM are within the Calcified Fragments
This only further convinces me that the portal on the traveler is akin to the keyholes on that space station
The idea of some third entity or even the Nine isn’t particularly far fetched in my opinion. With the final shape we are coming to the end of the light and dark saga of destiny and moving onto something yet unarmed for the franchise this could be bungie’s way of teasing the introduction of a new antagonist or force that we will face after the defeat of the witness. Or it could just be Crota but it’s at least interesting to consider :)
Highly highly recommend the lore book related to The Nine "Dust" most particularly what Byf is referencing is from "The Gate" entry; the entry Declaration with The Nine speaking gives something to think about as well. The entire Dust book along with the other Joker's Wild Nine book "Ecdysis" are excellent and imho some of the best lorebook stories in Destiny 2 especially related to The Nine. Seriously check it out if you want a good read
This might have been already cleared up. But what happened to that being the Eliksni talked of that watched over them, this was during Season of the Lost I believe :))
YESS. I am so glad you covered this lore. I commented about it on a previous video so it makes me happy to see my request fulfilled.
I don’t personally think Crota was responsible for the whispers in the Cocytus keyholes, because Enkaar mentions him earlier as separate from them. Plus, considering Enkaar and Xyor for that matter essentially worked for Crota, why would they get knowledge from him from a separate phenomena? I think it’s either some other mysterious entity, like you suggested, or maybe even one of the worm gods, like Ur, the Ever-Hunger - the whispers are described as “gluttonous” after all. It’s connection to the gateway of Cocytus and the implications there are wild.
Speaking of that, I wonder if these whispers could be related to the whispers associated with the Weapons of Sorrow themselves. They are known to whisper to their wielders, and also have a degree of sentience. Could these whispers all be from the same kind of source?
Finally, I don’t think it’s impossible that Xyor’s “betrothed” and Enkaar aren’t the same character. One is an acolyte and the other is a Knight, and the timeline doesn’t seem to line up, but: Hive are known to be able to change shape, both growing larger and having adaptations to survive as well as changing forms after death, like Kelgorath. Plus, it’s worth remembering that it was both Xyor’s curse, and the bones of her betrothed that Azzir grafted to his Rose, that corrupted him and created Thorn. Maybe Xyor divorced with Enkaar due to him being defeated by Azzir due to the Sword Logic. And Enkaar himself wielded a “Proto-Thorn” and was known to create weapons of sorrow. What if they worked together to decipher the Cocytus whispers ti create Necrochasm (or rather Husk of the Pit) and corrupt Rezyl Azzir?
Hive Lore is without doubt the best this game brings & everything connected honestly! Dredgen Yor is what hooked me, the Hunter Cloak in D1! The arguments about who it could be!!
All this screams new Dungeon!! Didn't Bungie mention 2 Dungeons instead of another Raid? What if we get something like this all connected to Xivu, Witness & the creation of weapons that can "kill" the light or potentially dark!?
This video reminds me that we have yet to discover the voice behind the Veil, that kinda led the Witness race to corruption and becoming one.
That's been the lore since Destiny 1. You also could obtain it the same exact way ad Destiny 1. I am kinda new to the Destiny 2 community but in the Destiny 1 community I was a clan leader and mastered the game and played through the DLCs bought them all and was kinda pissed about how the power scale worked with the new DLC weapon vs the original raid and dungeon weapons than they created the year one upgrades due to serious backlash of how weak our exotics and armor was that we worked hard for allowing us to obtain the year one upgrade engrams.
My boycott of Destiny 2 until the last DLC and my theory that the game will have the same mechanics is true. I started recently after the Final Shape was released and have been crushing the game heavily so far. A lot of the older mechanics are still in the game which I like a lot because it's very nostalgic.
I think it came from Nezrac himself. The guy is a the “god of pain” and his corpse was on the moon. What was left of it anyway. Perhaps a piece had been left on the station and that is what drove the crew mad. We know that people they held the fragments of him in the past were driven mad
The amount of times I lost that 1v1 quick draw was annoying, so thanks for the reminder on thay Byf.
In all seriousness this seems like an interesting new bit of lore, and good video as always
I would've said its the Witness behind the whispers as its the source of the Darkness's corruption, but since Necrochasm is related to Crota, it pushes me more to him
A little off topic, but I hope the other classes get more interactions between weapons and armor, like the warlocks do with necrotic grips. That or the other classes get their own necrotic gripnlike gauntlets, but with different unique effects
It’s Starhorse, whinnying very softly into the cosmos, as a prank. Nailed it.
Great vid! This is fascinating lore and opens up so much for what may come beyond TFS. As a Greek mythology nerd, just a heads up on the pronunciation of “cocytus,” it’s most commonly pronounced “co-kai-tus”(sometimes you’ll hear co-sai-tus, regardless, both roll off the tongue a bit easier than “cock-uh-tuss”)
Bungie: looks like byf gave us the outline for our lore
My theory so far is this.
The whispers are coming from The Deep, and The Deep itself is the realm where the ancient powerful beings that resided in the ascendant plane before The Traveler and The Veil split. The ascendant realm was the main place of existence. A metaphysical abstract where form and consciousness were intertwined and essentially limitless.
When the Traveler and Veil separated, it created a type of limbo between the physical and metaphysical where the ascendant beings fight and evolve. They've been the whispers in the minds of beings from the beginning of the universe. The Witness's victory in bringing the two back together will be the first stepping stone in opening up limbo and let the creatures of The Deep seep through. Including the TRUE Taken masters whose whispers revealed the knowledge to the Witness and later inspired Oryx to create The Tablets of Ruin.
The final shape is the promise whispered to The Witness to manipulate them. He learns in the end that the promise is a deception. The final shape isn't letting them shape the world as they see fit. The final shape is about the key/means to opening the prison the ascendant beings have been trapped for billions and billions of years since the universe began in its Big Bang (I guess). The patsy who brings about the next great war where Guardians and allies have to save our universe from The Deep's ascendant beings.
Okay, sorry for length. I'm just thorough with my thoughts is all.
There are beings that sound like they'd fit into that kinda environment perfectly described in awoken lore. The apheleon, and the harbingers, creatures either made of reverberating radiation and plasmas, or that give off said substances and waves, and seem to slip in and out of reality.
@@suruxstrawde8322 Could throw in beings composed of the elements themselves that have sentience once the Traveler and Veil's rejoining affects the universe's with metaphysical properties. Void, solar, arc, stasis, and strand manifesting agency and we have to relearn to channel them as sentient allies going forward and not just mindless tools to use as we please. More subclass specials where we summon elemental familiars that fight alongside and assist for a short period when dealing with extremely powerful ascendant enemies from The Deep.
I'm just spitballing ideas now that seem fun to me. The whole light physical vs darkness memory/consciousness duality thing entertains me with ideas. 😁
i havent played the game in a long time, but i love the lore and your lore videos
“A wizard Corrupted by dredgen yor” guess that slipped passed editing lol
All I can think of if it's beyond our knowledge... is something like the King in Yellow. A being beyond our understanding and holds a play that drives everyone who reads it mad.
We love you Byf
Manifold is a mathematical term which refers to a space with some type of geometry (or topology) so a hive manifold sounds like a physical space constructed by the hive i.e. a throne world
Regardless of how the sofia ended up, there are multiple open multi dimemtional portals, we could do something w that
My new headcanon is that some strong acolyte, knight, or wizard was sittin in the lines with a really cool gun idea and took the chance to make it a reality. Imagine "OoOoh Master GunSmith, you should make an auto rifle that explodes things it kills, OoOoh."
Love the lore Bean Byf!
thorn prototype looks like a mix between the exotic sub and Thorn
Now i want to know the details of hive betrothal and marriages or however it works for them
A byf video while I eat??? I love it
This Proto-Thorn looks like a merge of Thorn and Osteo Striga
If you died to it, it told you it's name. Which is Protothorn or something to that effect. Good shout.
Hi, so I’ve said it before in a previous video you’ve made. Actually pertaining around kelgorath. The judgment of Kelgorath. It breaks the norm for a weapon of sorrow and doesn’t have the visible poison or taken or cused thrall influence that the others do, but by technicality. The creation of that glave, does, in fact, follow the steps of creation of a weapon of sorrow. Food for thought?
there was a video in which byf mentioned the river analogy in the past due to Acheron / Cocytus, I believe it was close to the lore of the glykon but I might be wrong. In that video byf talked also about some theories on how the throne worlds might be connected, I've been searching for that video for a long time but no luck. If anyone knows what I'm talking about please let me know which one is!
My knowledge on the lore specifically is spotty , but what are the chances cocytus aperture is the derelict. I don't know if we've ever even been given an idea of what it actually is, but was it not given to the drifter by the nine? It seems to have some form of portal aspect to it, it's involved with the nine, and has a link to the shadows of yor through drifter. Just an idea
Maybe we should delve into the meaning of what a manifold is. It is an area in math responsible for analyzing and describing how to unfold space. Going from many into 1 or from 1 into many. Flowing from higher dimensional space into lower dimensions. Each point has its coordinates in a chart.
An aperture may be seen as a lens that can be seen as a boundary space that lids to different dimensions, and the keyholes and keys as a means to mapping how to access those spaces/dimensions.
Maybe this does not say much about who is behind the voices but I would say it should be someone below 3 dimensional space. Something you call Hell. Something that Crota tryied to recreate in his base but the real thing would be unfathomable to the human mind because our axis referent would not correlate well to one native of those dimensions.
In the ascended plane you need charts too to navigate it. And I would say that the ascended plane is a 4D space
Hey byf this makes me wonder if you can do a video on some of destiny's biggest mysteries that are yet to be solved and could possibly be solved in the final shape
Still convinced there is something above the Witness that actually corrupted its people. The origin of Salvation I think goes beyond the witness. They just took that on as their mission. They didn’t get obsessed until after the Veil. Maybe that’s tied to this. Maybe that’s tied to the Nine.
Byf, this is unrelated, but would you consider doing a video on just how powerful some exotics are in lore?
Cocytus would be such a cool dungeon
If the whispers came from the cocytus, couldn't be from the other part of the nine? (The opposite part of those who help us)
The midest of exotic ars finally got new lore
More weapons of sorrow, more connections to the strange soulfire energy known as corruption. Wonder if that'll become a new energy type in the future by this.
The Witness’s involvement in the creation of the Weapons of Sorrow would most likely been shrouded in secrecy
18:03 so I feel the whispers were Crota. An maybe it was a form for Crota to gain tithes. Because right now, I don’t think crota had a form of tithe 🤔 like yes there was conquering over all and his sword but his sword was his logic and not his way of life like how trickery was for Savathun and orix was to take. I could see it.
Would be great if we could still play those missions with new characters
People would just call it reused content.
@@renasaucemancuz you know, Bungie would never do that.
Yo I was not listening with that much attention but those whispers could have been Xol Will of Thousands
Just wondering if you'd be making a theory vid on the new subclass given the recent leak in the emote?
A Dev did come out and say that it was unintentional and that it has no correlation to a new subclass, it probably is actually related but best to just assume they're right
Cthulhu about to come through and get a taste of Gjallarhorn
You and Myelin need to write a Destiny lore book and get Bungie to release it.
THIS LORE IS SO COOL AND RANDOM I LOVE IT
Hmm, maybe something to learn in the upcoming post final shape episodes?
Top tier work, as always.
This is some really obscure stuff! 😮
I’m wondering if the Aphelion have anything to do with trying to come through the Apetures. After all, didn’t the Awoken say that we definitely don’t want to face one since it would just be doom to do so or something?
I’ve seen a few of your videos. I really like your content. Gave you a Sub for providing great info and content. Thank you. 🤝
The whispers are coming from the Skrank Gang.
Which rifle is he primarily using in this video? The gold one with what seems like it has dreaming city vibes to it?