Their language not having a past and future tense actually isn't as alien as you might think, and was likely inspired by a real world language, specifically Yucatec Maya, which also completely lacks tense and relies complex context indicators to infer temporal relationships indirectly. When you consider the history of the Argonians, this makes a lot of sense. The Maya built great cities, which they then simply abandoned for an unknown reason, not dying out, but just willingly dissolving back into the central American rain forests as the various maya tribes that were eventually discovered by the spaniards and still exist there today. The mayans didn't die out. They simply abandoned urban lifestyle en masse for an unknown reason. This very much mirrors the history of the argonians building massive civilizations, based on sacrifice and sporting meso-american inspired architecture, which they then willingly abandon for philosophical reasons, choosing instead to transition to a more primitive subsistence lifestyle. That their language would likewise be inspired by mayan language makes sense in this context.
What makes it unique is that the languages of TES are derived from the first word, IS, right? So all la guage essentially, and I'm boiling it down here, from Aka. Now we all know that Aka made himself exist and asserted his existence over all other spirits- ie, the concept of TIME. All languages are inclusive of time because of their origins. But the argonians don't define themselves by Aka. they do t seem to define themselves by the Gods and Spirits as we know it. They worship sithis and lack time in their language. It's pretty wild.
The mayans didnt build any of the main cities, the mayans just re-inhabited them. The olmec and toltec peoples were older than them, i believe the olmec were the oldest named civilization in South America, and even they have history that says they weren't first.
@@DrQuaid You are sort of oversimplifying things while also mashing the major cultures of meso-america together. (No worries, when it comes to these cultures, it is to be expected.) Most of the great Mayan cities, like Palenque or Chitchen Itza, were, in fact, built by the Mayans. Some cities, like Tikal, were built by other cultures later conquered by the Maya, but when you are talking about ancient Olmec cities being reinhabited by later civilizations (like Teotihuican), you are usually talking about the *Aztecs*, not the Maya, though Teotihucan, specifically, was inhabited by both cultures. Also, the maya are native to the Yucatan region of mexico, with their culture being confined to Mexico and central america. South America is the domain of the Inca, whose religion and culture is, unlike that of the Mayans and Aztecs, probably completely unrelated to that of the Olmecs, likely being derived from Amazonian religion and culture rather than those of mexico and central america.
@@UmbraDiSol Within the lore, yeah, Argonians should have a language unrelated to the language of men and mer because they are...um...unrelated to men and mer. However, the lack of tense in the video was being used to express how alien the mind of an argonian is. I was simply pointing out that a language without tense isn't that alien, and is actually a thing in real, human cultures. Also, not having tense in one's language doesn't mean that you don't have time in your language. We know, from the real world examples mentioned above, that people speaking in tenseless languages can, in fact, talk about time. They just don't enshrine it with it's own words and language structures. You can check out ua-cam.com/video/ttq0S4cuIHA/v-deo.html if you want to see a quick overview of now the mayan language talks about time without explicit tenses.
I also can't unhear the closeness between Hist Tree and History. I wouldn't be surprised to find a greater connection between the Hist and Hermeas Mora.
@@Crystantemum When they were talking about using the Argonians as just knowledge collectors to no clear end, that is exactly what I was thinking! also, I will now never un-see "Sithis=is Hist"
Lorkan created Nirn to understand mortality. The Hist is the ultimate being in collecting experiences. What better way to understand mortality than to collect the memories of every member of a race? Lorkan is Sithis. Sithis is Hist.
I've been trying to think of the name of the Fudgemuppet boyband and the Blackmarsh Boys is the only name that will do now. Thanks fellas. Loving these podcasts.
I started as argonians because they looked like dragons, and stayed with them for sentient trees that are basically herma Mora from the last cycle that squirt out lizard steroids
@@purpleisthesneakiestStarted in Oblivion, made a blue Argonian because he looked like a dinosaur and loved that they breathe underwater, and stayed with them for Skyrim for that and the dragon-like reasons. I just wish Skyrim had more underwater gameplay like Oblivion. Doing away with underwater combat/spells and minimizing underwater exploration is one of my biggest issues with Skyrim vanilla. I’ve since gone into Orsimer after playing as Ra Gada for a bit, but the Argonians will always have a special place for me.
The Argonians have been my favorite race since I first fired up Skyrim in 2012 on my best friend’s 360. Eight years 800+ hours later they’re still my favorite and most played race. Such a cool creation by the OG elder scrolls team.
I'm 99% sure the Hist remembers ALL the branches of the Dragonbreak, since they exist in all of them, and have the ability to communicate among themselves through dimensions. Assuming they can talk through time too...
I feel like they would respect the Hist as a sentient tree, tho likely not venerate it like the Argonians would. Perhaps they would take good care of it them if given the chance tho this is just pure speculation
That's something I've always wondered too. I imagine they would have some conflicting feelings: The Argonians venerate and diligently tend the Hist trees, yet the Hist use their power to alter the Argonians as they see fit. Bosmer (at least those who practice the Green Pact) dislike the concept of altering one's form under almost any circumstance; the Wild Hunt is the only real exception, and even then it's only invoked when it's absolutely necessary. Also, both the Hist and Argonians acknowledge Sithis as the "true creator", something most elven races would disapprove of.
21:40 There was a friction among the Hist. One of the Hist disagreed with others and made a deal with Molag Bal to preserve the culture of it's tribe. You can meet them in Coldharbour in ESO
@@saueqietrollageposting1477 all is doing well, Nazeem is starting to get on my nerves though. I'll ask Irileth if she can make him stop coming to Cloud District
I love how this culture is mayan and Aztec based even down to looking like quetzalcoatl the bird serpent god and even the weapons and building are similar too
My first elder scrolls game was Skyrim and I always enjoyed picking argonians simply cuz I thought they looked cool. Learning about their greater lore and history is super fascinating and definitely deepens my appreciation for the race. Keep up the good work guys 👍
I don't think the Hist trees are daedric in any way, but I think there are Hist trees on multiple planes of Oblivion that can communicate back to Blackmarsh
the thing about using birds to clean their teeth is probably based on the Egyptian plover (aka the crocodile bird). which is a bird irl that flies into a crocodiles mouth and cleans its teeth (this basically feeds the bird and helps the crocodile not get teeth/mouth infections)
There's one ineteresting thing about the Hist that you didn't mention there: considering the whole idea of the Hist absorbing Argonian memory, this makes them effectively just very accurate historians. So when you look at it that way, Hist tree sounds very much like the word history. Hist tree, history, very similar. That might be how they got their name from the writers.
I liked how the Morrowind Argonians (and Khajiit, for that matter) cannot wear closed headgear or boots, if I recall correctly. Very decent acknowledgment by the devs of the very different way the character models looked :)
Nobody ever talks about the Fighters Guild quest line in Oblivion, in which it seems like an actual, for real Hist Tree is brought out of Black March and into Cyrodiil and used to drug up members of the Blackwood Company. Its a pretty crazy thing to happen and seemingly was purposefully done by Argonians. The Hist being such an integral part of Argonian culture and generally their entire being, it suggests to me that this must have been done intentionally, by The Hist itself. Would have been nice to hear some of your thoughts on this. To go a little into my personal thoughts and headcannon on this, its particularly interesting because you, the player, The Champion of Cyrodiil ends up drinking hist sap and slaughtering an entire village while hallucinating that all the villagers are Goblins. The Champion of Cyrodiil drank hist sap, which could mean that the powers and abilities of The Champion of Cyrodiil could have possibly been added to the knowledge collective that The Hist is building. Now this is just a thought I've had, but I think The Hist was maybe able to now grant these abilities to the Argonians, which is what made them powerful enough to beat back the Oblivion Crisis and even go on the offensive, just like The Champion of Cyrodiil could.
I don't really see what would be wrong with an Argonian actually viewing themselves as a receptacle for the Hist. That doesn't have to be negative, instead it could be a deeply spiritual thing since their gods aren't omniscient in the same way that Men and Mer tend to think of their gods. The Hist are alive and bound to the land in Black Marsh. Argonians could still be individuals, and have their own desires and live their own lives. But the motivation for some of those things COULD BE that they are literally the vessels through which their gods experience the world. There's a motivation to live your life to the fullest because when it's over and done with, your story - your memories, and experiences - everything you've ever done returns to your gods and teaches them something about the world. And an extension of that could be what you were talking about with their funerals. To write your story on your funeral stake so that in addition to your gods, your entire tribe also gets to read and experience your story. Edit: 54:33 the Argonians aren't the most overpowered race. The Argonians aren't the ones with all of the knowledge. An Argonian dirt farmer in Black Marsh doesn't know about the wizard secrets that the Telvanni slave overheard. The Hist do though. The Hist would be the overpowered race. Except not really, because they're TREES. Their ability to act on all of this knowledge is very limited and indirect. They need the Argonians to be able to ACT on that. So what if the trees know everything going on in the continent? They don't care unless it endangers them. You said it yourself Scott, the Hist are survivalists.
The staking down is something similar to preemptively chopping off a corpses head or ive also seen corpses held down by a metal collar attached to the bottom of the casket to prevent the body from rising again.
I love this series so much! Currently my favorite podcast and I already listen to way too many. Even though they’re long, learning lore through conversations instead of scripts is much better for me. Keep up the great work!
Xukas in the murkmire dlc says some interesting things on the tribes, types of argonians, and each hist. There are multiple hist, though each tribe has A hist, and each tribe appear to have a massive difference between one another - though I imagine the hist can convert argonians from one form to another with ease.
The Hist seem to be able to transform the Argonians with ease--with the Argonian Behemoth being a extreme example. However, the Hist don't seem to worry about future events, so they just keep their tribes consistent generation after generation instead of continously transforming the Argonians for special tasks.
Ziggurat makes me think of ancient Sumer, but also of the Mayans who historically experience something similar. They had a golden age but then many of their great cities were abandoned, probably because of ecological issues. Great video btw, Elder Scrolls lore is truly fascinating and developed. I love all your deeper exploration of every aspect of it!
It never even occurred to me that the Argonians faces lack any emotional expression. I can say I have plenty of good reason for that though because the way I interpret people's moods and intent is through voice inflection, what I see in a person's eyes as we talk or even while you're interacting with others, and body language. I couldn't tell you exactly when I stopped considering facial expressions trustworthy but I can say it was while I was still a child probably well under the age of 10 years old. I can say that I will probably now try seeing if they show less facial expression next time I play because I'm so far from that being habit that it takes conscious effort to notice it.
Honestly in my main race are “argonians”second likely are “khajiits” my family they use my name and soaked with moon sugar and skooma and called me K’ki really a fun fact about my name...?
I’m with Michael. Argonians are awesome. I’ve talked with people who work with snakes and lizards and my impression is that even with the lack of expression, there actually isn’t a lot going on inside, at least much of the time. So I think that a better comparison is birds. They don’t have facial expressions either, but they have a lot of internal stuff like thoughts and emotions and social reflection going on inside. But it is really alien and intuitions shaped by hanging out with mammals like cat, dogs or horses are unhelpful. And for the record: birds are flying dinosaurs. Another random thought: argonians are obviously not coldblooded. They can adventure in Skyrim for Nirns sake! So, endotherm. As for the writing on the burial stakes, I think it’s like index card notations in a library. It’s an abstract of what kind of knowledge and experience is currently going into the hist tree. Head canon. Good episode guys. Makes heading into Murkmire a lot more enjoyable.
1:10:00 this is why the hist want the bodies back at the marsh. You don't leave a machine filled with secrets for enemies to find, and you don't leave your lizard biomachines for the same reason. Also lizombies are a dope security system
I wonder what happens if the Hist decides to adopt non-lizards into their brood? Like could a man or mer infant benefit from being connected to the Hist? Could a insects? How about a mountain goat? So many possibilities!
The Hist and the Argonians are inobligate symbiotes. They don’t NEED each other to survive, but greatly benefit from their coexistence and mutual relationship. It’s kinda like tarantulas and frogs… except the tarantulas use spears and magic and the frog occasionally pumps massive amounts of cocaine steroids into the spider to beat up demons. As for what the Hist are… Daedra is the technically right term for them since they aren’t anyones ancestors, but I don’t think they’re Deadric in the same way Demora or the Daedric princes are. Daedric may just be the best word to describe them in the Elder Scrolls, but it’s kinda like using the word cow to describe an elephant or rhino because you don’t have any other word for it. I think the Hist really are just their own thing.
Scott is out here quoting Hermes trismegistus. I'm curious to know the extent of his occult knowledge on theology. Definitely hearing some peter j carrol and McKenna in his ramblings. You can hear the hidden knowledge in his speech, this sold me. Scott is a magician
I hope Microsoft uses podcast conversation to make NPC conversation in game. Itd be great to see an Argonian talking about his heritage with an Imperial, or two healers debating the nature of the Hist as u complete a quest for their apprentice.
Skyrim was my first TES game, and I picked the Argonians immediately. I didn't know their lore back then, but I knew I have chosen the only perfect species.
there are flying lizards on earth (more like the flying squirrels, they climb then jump, not fly with wings but have arms and legs connected by a thin skin), yeah like wingsuits I totally see argonians living in a big jungle with high trees having these features, like jumping from a house in the heingts of the tree to one lower, entiere cities high in the forest and not on the ground
Nothing belongs to you. Nothing belongs to me. All things belong to the Hist. To the Hist we shall return. The Hist may brew our existence into Nirn. But it is Sithis who define our purpose in the great journey. For life is without motion. If not for the void to claim them. Death gives life purpose. To know your days are numbered. Those worthy of the Shadow Scale are the noblest of my kin. For their service is beyond that of honor. Shiver your spine with pride children of the Hist. For our roots grows deep into Tamriel history. Hail Sithis the eternal dread Father. May he grant us safe passage in our return to the Hist. Judges-All-Sinners (Argonian Sorcerer)
Did I miss it or did they not mention the hist tree that floated around Oblivion and nirn on an island. Also wasn't umbras quest related to a hist tree
I'm currently playing in an elder scrolls dnd game as an Argonian Forge Cleric. He was always plagued by this grand ambition to become a great smith, which he felt was unlike everyone in his tribe. He was a dedicated acolyte of the Hist, and was troubled. He prayed for a sign on what to do, drinking the sap, until months later he received a vision, to undergo a ceremony to remove his connection to the Hist, leave Black Marsh, and begin worship of a foreign god. He did so, and found himself learning blacksmithing from a worshipper of Zenithar. He's been struggling with whether or not he has a soul anymore, and whether he was guided by the Hist anymore or something else. The DM just revealed to him that Zenithar is guiding him, and perhaps is what is giving him his soul, or maintaining it. He's on a quest to find the Aetherium forge, and create a masterpiece, guided by Zenithar, who is pleading for him to hurry for some reason. I've been thinking his development will lead him to devote entirely to Zenithar, but still hold fondness for the Hist, the mother who guided her hatchling to leave the nest, and seek out his dreams.
I am absolutely certain the is real world inspiration for the lore of the bogblights! 16th, 17th, 18th century, not sure which one, but around those eras certain cultures when burying their dead, did so with an iron cage over the burial site! To prevent the dead from rising
Argonians worship Sithis, but the Hist are all about staying alive and staying the same. Maybe they have a symbiotic relationship akin to Anu and Padomay, the stasis of the Hist and the ever changing Argonian form
well I wouldnt say all argonians worship sithis they acknowledge the importance of sithis but they seem to understand that there is little point in worshipping a semi awake soul it's the shadow scales who seem to be the most devout to the worship of sithis
1:24 I was expecting you to say "Argonians are property". I don't know why but I did. BTW i love Argonians, they are awesome (and Murkmire from ESO is one of my favourite zones)
Theory: The hist are slowly building up an army. The argonians with feathers are slowly gaining wings. Argonians with toad or fish like features are slowly becoming water specialists. Maybe ambush fighters? So my theory is pretty much the hist are making a bunch of tribes that are specialized in one type of thing it’s pretty simple but I thought of during this podcast keep up the good work!
If the Hist just see things like it and add it to their lizards, the Argonians, the rest of Tamriel better pray to the eight that those trees never see the flying lizards that just returned in Skyrim or they are gonna be made into something a lot more scary than birds
The burial rites are about putting physical nutrients in the soil. It doesn't have to be about their memories. Maybe the hist get the memories of argonians who leave blackjack but they lose the energy or nutrients.
I’m reminded a little of social insects. Where the hist takes on aspect of ‘the hive’. The hive decides casts and workers will make different conditions for worker, warrior, or queen. One ant is unimportant but they will fiercely defend the nest. Obviously it’s not one to one. But take the emergent behavior of the hive and give it sentience and control of lizards instead of insects. There could be other influences but this seemed a decent fit.
I think it falls apart a bit because it doesn't seem like Argonians really have a caste system, their psiology is determined by the hist but with a few exceptions like Argonian Behemoths it doesn't seem like they're really designated certain roles (I mean it's possible for each individual and the argonians just don't know).
i always viewed the hist and argonians as a more symbiotic relationship rather than a more subservient one. i feel like the argonian soul is like dyad with one part being the individuals life emotion and personality and the other part being the hist. the hist i dont view as selfish as much as curious , the hist simply wants to learn , thats why i justify hist allowing argonian slaves because thats just another piece of life to attain and experience.
Easy way to think of the hist, is like the green in swamp thing a mass coalitions of primordial plant based entities that create this realm that's made from their collective subconscious. Like they create their own sovengard to move on to the next Kalpana. The difference between individual hist is what dictates whether the relationship is parasitic or symbiotic. Giving them typical daedric personality is a bit misguided because they feel like an inbetween entity of an aedra and daedra. Less unchecked ego but still have some semblance of a motivation or personality. Like if the hist were just giant elephants leading a race of lizards they helped evolve.
the bog blights could just be another form of protection in black marsh. if an argonian burial is being disturbed then it is is likely due to an enemy of argonians and the hist. i could imagine bog blights being quite helpful if an invading force attempted bring war to black marsh. even if the argonians fall in battle they could return as bog blights to finish the fight
That was my thought, the burial rights aren't about the souls but bringing the bodies to the marsh, which bogs naturally mummify so no decomposition, which means prime zombie material if the situation gets dire enough
These Podcasts are awesome... I hope they incorporate the features of the Argonians from each of the games in The Elder Scrolls 6. There could be some interesting combinations and I really want to make a more beast-like Argonian.
My latest oblivion playthrough was with an argonian named “Pops-two-Xans” a godlike character but ultimately an airhead
bruh, you played as lil xan 😭
Their language not having a past and future tense actually isn't as alien as you might think, and was likely inspired by a real world language, specifically Yucatec Maya, which also completely lacks tense and relies complex context indicators to infer temporal relationships indirectly.
When you consider the history of the Argonians, this makes a lot of sense. The Maya built great cities, which they then simply abandoned for an unknown reason, not dying out, but just willingly dissolving back into the central American rain forests as the various maya tribes that were eventually discovered by the spaniards and still exist there today. The mayans didn't die out. They simply abandoned urban lifestyle en masse for an unknown reason. This very much mirrors the history of the argonians building massive civilizations, based on sacrifice and sporting meso-american inspired architecture, which they then willingly abandon for philosophical reasons, choosing instead to transition to a more primitive subsistence lifestyle. That their language would likewise be inspired by mayan language makes sense in this context.
What makes it unique is that the languages of TES are derived from the first word, IS, right? So all la guage essentially, and I'm boiling it down here, from Aka. Now we all know that Aka made himself exist and asserted his existence over all other spirits- ie, the concept of TIME. All languages are inclusive of time because of their origins.
But the argonians don't define themselves by Aka. they do t seem to define themselves by the Gods and Spirits as we know it. They worship sithis and lack time in their language. It's pretty wild.
The mayans didnt build any of the main cities, the mayans just re-inhabited them. The olmec and toltec peoples were older than them, i believe the olmec were the oldest named civilization in South America, and even they have history that says they weren't first.
@@DrQuaid You are sort of oversimplifying things while also mashing the major cultures of meso-america together. (No worries, when it comes to these cultures, it is to be expected.) Most of the great Mayan cities, like Palenque or Chitchen Itza, were, in fact, built by the Mayans. Some cities, like Tikal, were built by other cultures later conquered by the Maya, but when you are talking about ancient Olmec cities being reinhabited by later civilizations (like Teotihuican), you are usually talking about the *Aztecs*, not the Maya, though Teotihucan, specifically, was inhabited by both cultures. Also, the maya are native to the Yucatan region of mexico, with their culture being confined to Mexico and central america. South America is the domain of the Inca, whose religion and culture is, unlike that of the Mayans and Aztecs, probably completely unrelated to that of the Olmecs, likely being derived from Amazonian religion and culture rather than those of mexico and central america.
@@UmbraDiSol Within the lore, yeah, Argonians should have a language unrelated to the language of men and mer because they are...um...unrelated to men and mer. However, the lack of tense in the video was being used to express how alien the mind of an argonian is. I was simply pointing out that a language without tense isn't that alien, and is actually a thing in real, human cultures. Also, not having tense in one's language doesn't mean that you don't have time in your language. We know, from the real world examples mentioned above, that people speaking in tenseless languages can, in fact, talk about time. They just don't enshrine it with it's own words and language structures. You can check out ua-cam.com/video/ttq0S4cuIHA/v-deo.html if you want to see a quick overview of now the mayan language talks about time without explicit tenses.
There use of hallucinogenics was also inspired by that regions culture
I don't know if it was the Mayans but it was one of them
I love HISTory podcasts.
History HISTory lol I saw what you did there.
This is dumb and I love it.
Whats really funny is Histtree said quickly sounds like history
@@joceybear303 And now I am kicking myself for not going that route. 😅
Boo hist.
1:17:23 dumb headcanon or not, I can't ignore Sithis being an anagram of "is Hist"
I also can't unhear the closeness between Hist Tree and History. I wouldn't be surprised to find a greater connection between the Hist and Hermeas Mora.
@@Crystantemum When they were talking about using the Argonians as just knowledge collectors to no clear end, that is exactly what I was thinking! also, I will now never un-see "Sithis=is Hist"
That's terrifying for an anagram.
Lorkan created Nirn to understand mortality. The Hist is the ultimate being in collecting experiences. What better way to understand mortality than to collect the memories of every member of a race?
Lorkan is Sithis. Sithis is Hist.
@@chrispeacock1257
So it's Mer VS Man and Beast-Lizard? Man, my Elf homies never get a break, do they?
It makes me so happy to Michael stand firmly in the way of any Argoanian misinformation. Almost like he’s maybe ingested some Hist himself.
"I don't hate Argonians." - every Argonian hater ever.
Why do Khajiit lick their butts
To get taste of Khajiit cooking out of their mouthd
Yeah for real right... I know this because...
I speak if expiernene
Every night I walk around the Windhelm harbour and let them scalies know what I think o' them.
There are only 2 things i hate in this world:
Racism
And the khajiit
"I don't hate Argonians! Some of my friends play Argonians!!!"
I've been trying to think of the name of the Fudgemuppet boyband and the Blackmarsh Boys is the only name that will do now. Thanks fellas. Loving these podcasts.
I started as argonians because they looked like dragons, and stayed with them for sentient trees that are basically herma Mora from the last cycle that squirt out lizard steroids
Same though lmao
This.
pretty sure this is the mental process of every argonian player that hopped on for skyrim
@@purpleisthesneakiest true
@@purpleisthesneakiestStarted in Oblivion, made a blue Argonian because he looked like a dinosaur and loved that they breathe underwater, and stayed with them for Skyrim for that and the dragon-like reasons. I just wish Skyrim had more underwater gameplay like Oblivion. Doing away with underwater combat/spells and minimizing underwater exploration is one of my biggest issues with Skyrim vanilla.
I’ve since gone into Orsimer after playing as Ra Gada for a bit, but the Argonians will always have a special place for me.
The Argonians have been my favorite race since I first fired up Skyrim in 2012 on my best friend’s 360. Eight years 800+ hours later they’re still my favorite and most played race. Such a cool creation by the OG elder scrolls team.
These are so enjoyable to listen to!
its my favorite content on yt right now these podcasts are sooo goood
Agreed! Informative and entertaining!
Yeah for real keep them coming
Truth
I go to sleep to them. Something about there voices in the video 💤
Ima be honest to yall. You guys are what grounds me. Having well made elder scrolls video uploaded every now and then keeps me sane for some reason.
Is it shea or sheo
Michael: "They're all egg laying creatures."
Me: *thinking what a platypus argonian would look like*
I like where this is going, Platypus Argonians would be a cool direction for the new Elder Scrolls
Echidnas lay eggs. Knuckles, but with breasts.
Adorable, that’s what!
Yes I had the same thought!
Oh it’s just a Argonian. Wait PERRY THE ARGONIAN
I wonder how the hists memories were affected by the dragon break or if they retain an awareness of the disparity of the realities
That's a really good question.
I'm 99% sure the Hist remembers ALL the branches of the Dragonbreak, since they exist in all of them, and have the ability to communicate among themselves through dimensions. Assuming they can talk through time too...
I'm thinking that maybe the Hist aren't affected by the power of Aka the same way. If at all.
“I would be uncomfortable talking to an Oblivion Argonian.”
I would be uncomfortable talking to Oblivion NPCs in general. XD
"Hey, we are the greatest and most intelligent NPCs around"
*Proceeds to walk into a wall and a chair*
"What was that?"
Yea.. they haven't aged well
haha nice
I wonder how the Bosmer feel about the Hist, since they venerate trees and nature.
I feel like they would respect the Hist as a sentient tree, tho likely not venerate it like the Argonians would. Perhaps they would take good care of it them if given the chance tho this is just pure speculation
That's something I've always wondered too.
I imagine they would have some conflicting feelings:
The Argonians venerate and diligently tend the Hist trees, yet the Hist use their power to alter the Argonians as they see fit. Bosmer (at least those who practice the Green Pact) dislike the concept of altering one's form under almost any circumstance; the Wild Hunt is the only real exception, and even then it's only invoked when it's absolutely necessary.
Also, both the Hist and Argonians acknowledge Sithis as the "true creator", something most elven races would disapprove of.
I have gotten back into Morrowind and ESO thanks to this podcast. The enthusiasm they have for the lore is contagious😎
21:40 There was a friction among the Hist. One of the Hist disagreed with others and made a deal with Molag Bal to preserve the culture of it's tribe. You can meet them in Coldharbour in ESO
How's Whiterun doing, my Jarl?
@@saueqietrollageposting1477 all is doing well, Nazeem is starting to get on my nerves though. I'll ask Irileth if she can make him stop coming to Cloud District
@@whatever3912-h7e why not just feed nazeem to the next dragon that takes residents and dragons reach
I had written off ESO as a retconning cash grab at first but I continue to be impressed by the story and lore that comes out of that game
@@TobeWilsonNetwork yeah it's surprised me too. I've come to really like it.
Best podcast yet. But I'm a bit biased since the Argonians are my number one race in Elder Scrolls.
I would like my grave stake to say “Did nothing all her life - just chilled in the swamps”
Chills-In-Swamp
@Holy Hand Grenades that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.
28:08
Agree; better boring than stressful.
I love how this culture is mayan and Aztec based even down to looking like quetzalcoatl the bird serpent god and even the weapons and building are similar too
I want there to be an Argonian character that talks about man's, mer and kajit being so weird compared to them. It would be a cool character.
My first elder scrolls game was Skyrim and I always enjoyed picking argonians simply cuz I thought they looked cool. Learning about their greater lore and history is super fascinating and definitely deepens my appreciation for the race. Keep up the good work guys 👍
I don't think the Hist trees are daedric in any way, but I think there are Hist trees on multiple planes of Oblivion that can communicate back to Blackmarsh
According to Argonians, the Hist would be Aedra "our ancestors".
@@badluck5647 But the Hist CREATED the lizard-folk. They aren't their ancestors.
"Michael will you explain Argonians to us since that is your expertise?"
Scott: So here's how it works..
the thing about using birds to clean their teeth is probably based on the Egyptian plover (aka the crocodile bird). which is a bird irl that flies into a crocodiles mouth and cleans its teeth (this basically feeds the bird and helps the crocodile not get teeth/mouth infections)
18:00 The winged argonian would be a cool idea because in a way it would be a throwback at Quetzalcoatl, the aztec precious serpent
Thought he was dual wielding a pair of purple lightsabers from the thumbnail
There's one ineteresting thing about the Hist that you didn't mention there: considering the whole idea of the Hist absorbing Argonian memory, this makes them effectively just very accurate historians. So when you look at it that way, Hist tree sounds very much like the word history. Hist tree, history, very similar. That might be how they got their name from the writers.
Very accurate HISTorians indeed.
@@rooscochran1003 Didn't even think of the pun lol
I liked how the Morrowind Argonians (and Khajiit, for that matter) cannot wear closed headgear or boots, if I recall correctly. Very decent acknowledgment by the devs of the very different way the character models looked :)
Completely agree with everything Michael had to say in this one. Very well spoken like the logical speculation and ideas.
"Licks eyeballs in anticipation "
I only noticed from the Australian accent pronunciation but I just realized "Hist Tree" sounds like "History"
Nobody ever talks about the Fighters Guild quest line in Oblivion, in which it seems like an actual, for real Hist Tree is brought out of Black March and into Cyrodiil and used to drug up members of the Blackwood Company. Its a pretty crazy thing to happen and seemingly was purposefully done by Argonians. The Hist being such an integral part of Argonian culture and generally their entire being, it suggests to me that this must have been done intentionally, by The Hist itself. Would have been nice to hear some of your thoughts on this.
To go a little into my personal thoughts and headcannon on this, its particularly interesting because you, the player, The Champion of Cyrodiil ends up drinking hist sap and slaughtering an entire village while hallucinating that all the villagers are Goblins. The Champion of Cyrodiil drank hist sap, which could mean that the powers and abilities of The Champion of Cyrodiil could have possibly been added to the knowledge collective that The Hist is building. Now this is just a thought I've had, but I think The Hist was maybe able to now grant these abilities to the Argonians, which is what made them powerful enough to beat back the Oblivion Crisis and even go on the offensive, just like The Champion of Cyrodiil could.
I don't really see what would be wrong with an Argonian actually viewing themselves as a receptacle for the Hist. That doesn't have to be negative, instead it could be a deeply spiritual thing since their gods aren't omniscient in the same way that Men and Mer tend to think of their gods. The Hist are alive and bound to the land in Black Marsh. Argonians could still be individuals, and have their own desires and live their own lives. But the motivation for some of those things COULD BE that they are literally the vessels through which their gods experience the world. There's a motivation to live your life to the fullest because when it's over and done with, your story - your memories, and experiences - everything you've ever done returns to your gods and teaches them something about the world. And an extension of that could be what you were talking about with their funerals. To write your story on your funeral stake so that in addition to your gods, your entire tribe also gets to read and experience your story.
Edit: 54:33 the Argonians aren't the most overpowered race. The Argonians aren't the ones with all of the knowledge. An Argonian dirt farmer in Black Marsh doesn't know about the wizard secrets that the Telvanni slave overheard. The Hist do though. The Hist would be the overpowered race. Except not really, because they're TREES. Their ability to act on all of this knowledge is very limited and indirect. They need the Argonians to be able to ACT on that. So what if the trees know everything going on in the continent? They don't care unless it endangers them. You said it yourself Scott, the Hist are survivalists.
The staking down is something similar to preemptively chopping off a corpses head or ive also seen corpses held down by a metal collar attached to the bottom of the casket to prevent the body from rising again.
I love this series so much! Currently my favorite podcast and I already listen to way too many. Even though they’re long, learning lore through conversations instead of scripts is much better for me. Keep up the great work!
Xukas in the murkmire dlc says some interesting things on the tribes, types of argonians, and each hist. There are multiple hist, though each tribe has A hist, and each tribe appear to have a massive difference between one another - though I imagine the hist can convert argonians from one form to another with ease.
The Hist seem to be able to transform the Argonians with ease--with the Argonian Behemoth being a extreme example. However, the Hist don't seem to worry about future events, so they just keep their tribes consistent generation after generation instead of continously transforming the Argonians for special tasks.
Ziggurat makes me think of ancient Sumer, but also of the Mayans who historically experience something similar. They had a golden age but then many of their great cities were abandoned, probably because of ecological issues.
Great video btw, Elder Scrolls lore is truly fascinating and developed. I love all your deeper exploration of every aspect of it!
It never even occurred to me that the Argonians faces lack any emotional expression. I can say I have plenty of good reason for that though because the way I interpret people's moods and intent is through voice inflection, what I see in a person's eyes as we talk or even while you're interacting with others, and body language. I couldn't tell you exactly when I stopped considering facial expressions trustworthy but I can say it was while I was still a child probably well under the age of 10 years old. I can say that I will probably now try seeing if they show less facial expression next time I play because I'm so far from that being habit that it takes conscious effort to notice it.
Really needed this podcast on Argonians, there's so much i need and want to know about the argonian race.
Now all of us know what's in Drew's search history: Argonian feet pics.
Argonians would be #teamtrees
Bog People - bogs are known to Naturally Mummify corpses (in real life)
FudgeMuppert with the HISTory of my sexy Argonian companions, looks like our lucky day people.
Honestly in my main race are “argonians”second likely are “khajiits” my family they use my name and soaked with moon sugar and skooma and called me K’ki really a fun fact about my name...?
I feel like I have been seeing you around a lot
Galren Who? Me or SomeGuy i guess to i see him beforly...?
@@kikhiithekhajiit8770 Some Guy
You are everywhere.
I’m with Michael. Argonians are awesome.
I’ve talked with people who work with snakes and lizards and my impression is that even with the lack of expression, there actually isn’t a lot going on inside, at least much of the time. So I think that a better comparison is birds. They don’t have facial expressions either, but they have a lot of internal stuff like thoughts and emotions and social reflection going on inside. But it is really alien and intuitions shaped by hanging out with mammals like cat, dogs or horses are unhelpful.
And for the record: birds are flying dinosaurs.
Another random thought: argonians are obviously not coldblooded. They can adventure in Skyrim for Nirns sake! So, endotherm.
As for the writing on the burial stakes, I think it’s like index card notations in a library. It’s an abstract of what kind of knowledge and experience is currently going into the hist tree. Head canon.
Good episode guys. Makes heading into Murkmire a lot more enjoyable.
Also would note birds are inherently a bit more social, thus emotional bonds are more present than with most reptiles.
A shot rang out, a door slammed, a maid screamed, then suddenly a legion of Argonians appeared on the horizon....
Last time I was this early Argonians still walked on four legs
12:29 Argonian moisturizer, the *DEEPEST LORE*
1:10:00 this is why the hist want the bodies back at the marsh. You don't leave a machine filled with secrets for enemies to find, and you don't leave your lizard biomachines for the same reason.
Also lizombies are a dope security system
I wonder what happens if the Hist decides to adopt non-lizards into their brood?
Like could a man or mer infant benefit from being connected to the Hist? Could a insects? How about a mountain goat?
So many possibilities!
The Hist and the Argonians are inobligate symbiotes. They don’t NEED each other to survive, but greatly benefit from their coexistence and mutual relationship. It’s kinda like tarantulas and frogs… except the tarantulas use spears and magic and the frog occasionally pumps massive amounts of cocaine steroids into the spider to beat up demons.
As for what the Hist are… Daedra is the technically right term for them since they aren’t anyones ancestors, but I don’t think they’re Deadric in the same way Demora or the Daedric princes are. Daedric may just be the best word to describe them in the Elder Scrolls, but it’s kinda like using the word cow to describe an elephant or rhino because you don’t have any other word for it. I think the Hist really are just their own thing.
Scott is out here quoting Hermes trismegistus. I'm curious to know the extent of his occult knowledge on theology. Definitely hearing some peter j carrol and McKenna in his ramblings.
You can hear the hidden knowledge in his speech, this sold me. Scott is a magician
I hope Microsoft uses podcast conversation to make NPC conversation in game. Itd be great to see an Argonian talking about his heritage with an Imperial, or two healers debating the nature of the Hist as u complete a quest for their apprentice.
When Scott actually stopped talking for like 1 minute >
Skyrim was my first TES game, and I picked the Argonians immediately. I didn't know their lore back then, but I knew I have chosen the only perfect species.
My argonian is always an agent of the hist that gives him vision to go and effect the big events of history
there are flying lizards on earth (more like the flying squirrels, they climb then jump, not fly with wings but have arms and legs connected by a thin skin), yeah like wingsuits
I totally see argonians living in a big jungle with high trees having these features, like jumping from a house in the heingts of the tree to one lower, entiere cities high in the forest and not on the ground
Nothing belongs to you. Nothing belongs to me. All things belong to the Hist. To the Hist we shall return. The Hist may brew our existence into Nirn. But it is Sithis who define our purpose in the great journey. For life is without motion. If not for the void to claim them. Death gives life purpose. To know your days are numbered. Those worthy of the Shadow Scale are the noblest of my kin. For their service is beyond that of honor. Shiver your spine with pride children of the Hist. For our roots grows deep into Tamriel history. Hail Sithis the eternal dread Father. May he grant us safe passage in our return to the Hist.
Judges-All-Sinners
(Argonian Sorcerer)
Do the bosmer and the green pact next podcast ples
Did I miss it or did they not mention the hist tree that floated around Oblivion and nirn on an island.
Also wasn't umbras quest related to a hist tree
As a Dunmer I don't hate Argonians, some of my best slaves were Argonians!
The An-Xileel wanted to know your location... until they remembered it was already razed to the ground.
On the topic of bog wights: what if, rather than being a lost soul wandering, their souls did return and what’s left is an empty husk?
Anyone else notice that the statue of sithis from eso looks like a Hindu idol like Vishnu?
He looks more like Asura after 40 days and 40 nights
I think the hiss let them get enslaved and Concord because that was just another experience for them to farm In their memory banks
I'm currently playing in an elder scrolls dnd game as an Argonian Forge Cleric. He was always plagued by this grand ambition to become a great smith, which he felt was unlike everyone in his tribe. He was a dedicated acolyte of the Hist, and was troubled. He prayed for a sign on what to do, drinking the sap, until months later he received a vision, to undergo a ceremony to remove his connection to the Hist, leave Black Marsh, and begin worship of a foreign god. He did so, and found himself learning blacksmithing from a worshipper of Zenithar. He's been struggling with whether or not he has a soul anymore, and whether he was guided by the Hist anymore or something else. The DM just revealed to him that Zenithar is guiding him, and perhaps is what is giving him his soul, or maintaining it. He's on a quest to find the Aetherium forge, and create a masterpiece, guided by Zenithar, who is pleading for him to hurry for some reason. I've been thinking his development will lead him to devote entirely to Zenithar, but still hold fondness for the Hist, the mother who guided her hatchling to leave the nest, and seek out his dreams.
Scott loves the Dunmer so much he’s adapted there racism lol
I read this wrong as I was scrolling and it looked like Argonians hit the streets. Fudgemuppet make it a series!
I am absolutely certain the is real world inspiration for the lore of the bogblights! 16th, 17th, 18th century, not sure which one, but around those eras certain cultures when burying their dead, did so with an iron cage over the burial site! To prevent the dead from rising
I will always be jealous of Drew’s beard, so thank you Drew for covering it with your mic so I don’t have to feel self conscious.
i like argonians because cool lizard
Based
Argonians worship Sithis, but the Hist are all about staying alive and staying the same. Maybe they have a symbiotic relationship akin to Anu and Padomay, the stasis of the Hist and the ever changing Argonian form
well I wouldnt say all argonians worship sithis
they acknowledge the importance of sithis but they seem to understand that there is little point in worshipping a semi awake soul
it's the shadow scales who seem to be the most devout to the worship of sithis
1:24 I was expecting you to say "Argonians are property". I don't know why but I did.
BTW i love Argonians, they are awesome (and Murkmire from ESO is one of my favourite zones)
If it has a tail it's up for sale
Telvanni in this bitch, S'wit
@@UmbraDiSol an-xileel drag you underwater, hold your head beneth till the bubbles stopped
ARGONIONS ARE THE BEST AND MY FAVORITE ELDER SCROLLS RACE!!!!!
Second favorite is the Bosmer and third is the Orcs.
I'd buy Scaly Boy Gang merch
I used to hate argonians, then I found the chronicles of Lifts-Her-Tail and now I love them.
Argonians are definitely the most underrated race in the ESU. Even i wasn't sold on them until ESO more greatly elaborated on them and their culture.
Scott looks like a Dunmer and Michael like an Imperial
Also if you make an Argonian themed anything I will buy it
Theory: The hist are slowly building up an army. The argonians with feathers are slowly gaining wings. Argonians with toad or fish like features are slowly becoming water specialists. Maybe ambush fighters? So my theory is pretty much the hist are making a bunch of tribes that are specialized in one type of thing it’s pretty simple but I thought of during this podcast keep up the good work!
Argonians sure love their HIST TREE.
Lol, I like how Drew just sat there for most of it as Scott and Michael "argued"
Hey! I always make an argonian with a smile through facial construction and always name him "kills-with-a-smile".
Puffer Adder might be a type of snake
Puff adder, yeah
If the Hist just see things like it and add it to their lizards, the Argonians, the rest of Tamriel better pray to the eight that those trees never see the flying lizards that just returned in Skyrim or they are gonna be made into something a lot more scary than birds
Honestly the Hist should have added cliff racer features to Argonians then they would be nigh unstoppable except by a warrior of Saint Juib caliber.
I saw argonian and I immediately clicked
@Lotad-Is-Hungry ! Nice pun
The burial rites are about putting physical nutrients in the soil. It doesn't have to be about their memories. Maybe the hist get the memories of argonians who leave blackjack but they lose the energy or nutrients.
I’m reminded a little of social insects. Where the hist takes on aspect of ‘the hive’. The hive decides casts and workers will make different conditions for worker, warrior, or queen. One ant is unimportant but they will fiercely defend the nest.
Obviously it’s not one to one. But take the emergent behavior of the hive and give it sentience and control of lizards instead of insects. There could be other influences but this seemed a decent fit.
I think it falls apart a bit because it doesn't seem like Argonians really have a caste system, their psiology is determined by the hist but with a few exceptions like Argonian Behemoths it doesn't seem like they're really designated certain roles (I mean it's possible for each individual and the argonians just don't know).
Love love love this podcast. Can't get enough!!!
i always viewed the hist and argonians as a more symbiotic relationship rather than a more subservient one. i feel like the argonian soul is like dyad with one part being the individuals life emotion and personality and the other part being the hist. the hist i dont view as selfish as much as curious , the hist simply wants to learn , thats why i justify hist allowing argonian slaves because thats just another piece of life to attain and experience.
one of those trees from the floating city is in skyrim and one of the Argonians will mention he feels a link like he does to the hist
I love these podcasts, keep it up! And pump out more!
Easy way to think of the hist, is like the green in swamp thing a mass coalitions of primordial plant based entities that create this realm that's made from their collective subconscious. Like they create their own sovengard to move on to the next Kalpana. The difference between individual hist is what dictates whether the relationship is parasitic or symbiotic.
Giving them typical daedric personality is a bit misguided because they feel like an inbetween entity of an aedra and daedra. Less unchecked ego but still have some semblance of a motivation or personality. Like if the hist were just giant elephants leading a race of lizards they helped evolve.
Best of the podcast so far, but the Argonians are my favorite so.
Think of the hist tree as a brain fungus, it doesn't completely take control but it does sway you to what it wants
Explore the moisteries of the Sload and dregs under the waves and along the shores!
hard to turn that into a hour long podcast
The Na'vi from Avatar remind me of the Argonians like the connection to the Hist.
12:40 Michael telling Scott to hold on is so funny to me lol
and Drew just grinning
the bog blights could just be another form of protection in black marsh. if an argonian burial is being disturbed then it is is likely due to an enemy of argonians and the hist. i could imagine bog blights being quite helpful if an invading force attempted bring war to black marsh. even if the argonians fall in battle they could return as bog blights to finish the fight
That was my thought, the burial rights aren't about the souls but bringing the bodies to the marsh, which bogs naturally mummify so no decomposition, which means prime zombie material if the situation gets dire enough
These Podcasts are awesome...
I hope they incorporate the features of the Argonians from each of the games in The Elder Scrolls 6. There could be some interesting combinations and I really want to make a more beast-like Argonian.
An argonian with maxed out acrobatics and agility should be able to run across the surface of the water like a jesus lizard