Troubleshooting Confused Light Switches
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- Опубліковано 16 сер 2024
- Electric Pro Academy - Real skills to make real money.
Synopsis:
For those hoping to see inside the mind of a master electrician as he visualizes and manipulates wire behind finished walls and between floors with x-ray precision, prepare to be…
…disappointed. While EPRO exists to make “electrical best practice” readily accessible for the good of the trade and future generations, we have to admit that we’re hoping to make our lives a little easier, too. Join us on the wrong side of the drywall, fidgeting with confused three-way switches and scratching our heads attempting to achieve functionality and safety, as Joel asks himself: “Why is a downstairs living room switch operating an upstairs bedroom?!” If you’re considering some electrical “exceptions” in your own home, please watch and learn what questionable wiring choices can mean for future residents and servicemen. At the same time, here’s a few ideas and diagnostic tools to consider if you’re in our position.
…Better yet, get a 15-year professional electrician’s expertise directly via video or voice call to overcome your home project obstacle! EPro’s own Joel Walsman is available for any electrical question, with complete transparency & full-bodied advice for the seasoned or novice DIYer here: electric-pro-a...
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National Electrical Code (NEC) referenced in this video:
Free Access Here: www.nfpa.org/c...
[] No shared terminals [NEC 110.3(B), 110.14(A)]
Outline:
0:00 - Introduction
1:06 - Investigating The 1st Problematic Switch
1:59 - Investigating A Mysterious 2nd Switch
6:22 - Investigating The Stairway Switch
7:10 - Investigating The Living Room Light
9:14 - Investigating A Living Room Receptacle
9:20 - Investigating An Upstair Hallway Switch
9:50 - Investigating The Upstairs Master Bed Hallway Switch
11:04 - Investigating The Upstairs Girls’ Bedroom Switch
14:33 - Returning To The Bottom Of The Stairs
15:21 - Returning To The Mysterious 2nd Living Room Switch
16:08 - Returning To The Upstairs Master Bed Hallway Switch
16:39 - Returning To The Upstair Hallway Switch
18:22 - An Anti-Climactic Wrap-Up
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Jefferson Electric installs and services residential, commercial, solar, and Tesla systems in Indianapolis, IN.
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I always find it ironic when an electrician has electrical issues in their home that they take way too long to fix
The cobbler's children go barefoot.
Its common among many trades.
Cobbler's kids got no shoes
Mechanics personal cars are clapped out.
Etc
When you do it 40+ hrs M-F you don't want to do it on the weekends when it works, kinda
It looks like whoever replaced the bedroom single pole switch with a 3-way assumed that any switch with three wires attached (white, black, red) had to be replaced with a switch that had three screws. The same mistake might have happened with one or both of the switches in the living room.
It seems to me that after fixing the bedroom switch and making the red wire always hot, that you've now got 2 hots in the first living room switch box (the red and the white wires). Perhaps that first 3-way switch in the living room is also supposed to be a single pole switch. And the red wire is supposed to be the hot for that circuit. The white wire is the switch leg to the light fixture. And the black wire in that switch box might isn't a traveler, and instead might have originally fed the switched half of a duplex outlet in the living room And perhaps the duplex outlet got replaced with a new duplex outlet that still has the shorting bar installed. So now the black wire in the living room switch box is being back-fed by a duplex outlet somewhere in the living room. Cap off the black wire and connect the red and white to a single pole switch.
The upstairs hallway and stairwell lights are probably supposed to be controlled by three switches. A 3-way at the bottom of the stairs, the mystery 3-way at the end of the hallway, and a 4-way switch at the top of stairs (where the "extra" black wire is disconnected). I'm guessing both of the 3-way switches are mis-wired and the 3-way at the top of stairs switch has to be replaced with a new 4-way switch.
To figure out which are the hot wires and which are the travelers you really need to disconnect all the wires on all three switches all at the same time. It's just too confusing to do it with some or all of the switches miswired and the light fixtures powered on. After disconnecting all the wires on all 3 switches, I'd start by finding the hot wires in each of the 3-way boxes (and verify that all 4 wires in the top of stairs box are de-energized). Then connect just the upstairs hallway 3-way switch. Then using your meter and switching the 3-way switch back and forth, make certain you still have two dead wires, and two working travelers from that 3-way box to the 4-way box at the top of stairs . Then disconnect that upstairs 3-way and repeat the process with the bottom of stairs 3-way. If you don't find 2 sets of working travelers in that 4-way switch box, then give up and put everything back the way it was (and just fix it when you re-wire the house).
I too thought it was poor practice to go around testing these lines (that are KNOWN to have some confused wiring) while leaving the other wires connected/ energized. like you stated, just disconnect them all and find the live lines so you can THEN logically establish how each run (individually) energizes what... much easier to map/ document the circuit
Just in case you not aware of it, your Kline meter has a beautiful back light that you can turn on so we could read your meter easier on your videos. Thanks.
My current home in northern Illinois was built in 1973 by a local homebuilder for himself. As such, a lot of scraps and low cost labor. Back then there was a pretty tight buddy-buddy relationship between the local contractors and city code enforcement. I believe he probably used a long retired electrician because as I was replacing all the wore out, nearly 40 year old switches (in poorly mounted boxes that were set too deep) I was mystified by the 3-way switch wiring. There are a total of four 3-way lighting circuits in the home and although all 3-ways were wired identically, they didn't look right. There was a black and a white wire from a piece of BX connected to the traveler screws, and a black wire from another piece of BX (with the white wire capped off) going to the common screw. Both 3-ways for a particular lighting fixture were wired the same. Each ceiling fixture had only two black wires. So I decided to pull all the wires off the switches and check with the multi-meter. Turns out all the 3-way circuits in the house were wired like they used to do with knob and tube and a single 120 line coming to the house. A house built in 1973, not 1873. The black and white wires connected to the traveler screws on each switch were in fact a hot and a neutral. The black wires on the common screws, which led to the ceiling fixture, were being reversed from hot to neutral when the switch was flipped. If both switches were in the same position there was either two neutrals going to the fixture, or two hots, and the light would be off. When one switch was flipped then you would get a hot from one switch and a neutral from the other switch and the light would come on. I really would like to correct this, but I would have to rip out a bunch of (plastered) drywall to rewire these circuits. As well, whenever I do work in the breaker panel like removing, adding, or rearranging breakers I have to make damn sure that any wires relocated in the panel go back on the same leg so I don't inadvertently end up feeding 240 into one of those light fixtures. I also have to shut off breakers to change the lightbulb because the socket could be at 120v potential even if the light is "off".
Congrats on solving at least one riddle. Also, thank you very much for making these videos because I've learned a ton from you. I have two switches that do nothing, but I know that one of them is for the back door porch light, but it's one of those really old floodlight style motion activated ones, and the bulbs are completely shot. The other is a complete mystery, but in my case it's in a 2-gang with another switch that controls the dining room light. We have cabinets that were custom built, and have a 4 ft. 2-tube florescent light fixture mounted to the bottom. The light hasn't worked since we've moved in so it's either the ballast is blown, or it's been disconnected in the wall.
There's a blank-capped box right next to it, and there's romex coming from the fixture into the cabinet, and terminates in the wall. My thinking is that mystery switch controls the fixture, but until I remove, and replace it I don't know for sure. I might dismantle the entire thing just to test it because I have issues, lol. If I can solve the mystery I can replace the light with a good one, and move on.
Newer subscriber and professional homeowner here coming from your pal Everyday Home Repairs. Really excited to see whatever video you do to rewire your house! Love the videos.
Take out switches and lights. Tone out each wire and reinstall each component correctly.
Was thinking the 3 conductor in the kids room was possible at one point a stack switch for light and fan
I use a Triplet Fox and Hound, they make one u could use on hot ( energized) circuits to trace cables in walls, ceilings or floors.
Southwest Missouri here, I know basic electricity but you lost me after the second switch removal LOL
Those dead switches likely control one or more outlets for lamps. In a house that old, it’s likely the ceiling light was added later and the wiring was fitted to suit, albeit improperly.
I always use the black as common.
I had a few mystery 3-way switches in my 1845 federal home. This situation was almost identical!
I always tape my white returns black to avoid confusion
Nice stool!! Where did you get it, your Grandma??!! HAHA!!
I’ve found that dealing w/ 3 way, 4 way switches….that disconnecting load and line wires and starting from FRESH is the easiest and fasted way to “fix” the problem.
However, if have a situation where multiple rooms controlling multiple or diff luminaires (even switched outlets), your gonna have to trouble shoot and break out the meters, testers, and some other tricks of the trade to solve the conundrum that’s plaguing yo7r home.
Also, why is it, that ever home had 1 switch, that does absolutely nothing (far as know), never fails…..it’s always present and bet you’ve all seen it as well, lol
✌🏻
Try this…. When you were turning off the living room light, power was being sent up to your daughter’s bedroom by the traveler you found up there with no purpose. Part 2….. because you removed the wire from the daughter’s light switch (the traveler) power was disconnected from the two light switches downstairs so they stopped working. Just a guess.
Wish you would stop opening and closing my garage doors! Lol.
Where the box had an extra wire could have been a 4 way originally?
Joel interesting video !!
I would of taken a different approach, like you have said in many previous videos. You have to know and be as certain as possible with the wiring your dealing with. It seems like you were just guessing to figure things out after realizing that this could be more than 1 issue and likely to have multiple issues.
I would have suggested a more scientific approach ( takes a little more time but it’s well worth it and you have much more certainty when your done )
With that said
1. Grab paper, pencil, and clip board
2.don’t wast time and possible confusion
3. Identify all the boxes and potential devices on the circuit your dealing with
4.draw a quick sketch and plot all the boxes
And devices.
5. Open up as many boxes on the circuit as possible
6..plot how many cables and the # of conductors in each cable. At each location.
You may need to isolate & take several splices apart while ringing out wires so you know exactly what cables go between what boxes. ( and hope their is nothing buried.
but if there is you will find out)
( you should know by now what is on the entire circuit consists of the objectives of the outlets, fixtures & switching you desire)
Now you can draw the wires on the wiring diagram you started
Now you can PAUSE, ANALYZE THE CIRCUIT and make notes on your drawing and once your as close to 100% certain on what your dealing with on paper you can start putting things back together ( you will feel much better knowing exactly how the circuit is or should be wired after putting it back together and everything work as it should !!)
You referred to doing heart ❤️ surgery when changing out a panel well it’s the same thing you better know for certain what Arteries and vessels go where.
A picture is worth a 1000 words and avoids confusion. My college Electrical Instructor always said “ I can’t see with my Ears draw me a cartoon”
Let me ask how many times have your guys ask for help troubleshooting something and your not their so they started describing it to you, and that motion picture starts playing in your brain as you try to follow along only to say to them” wait a minute that’s electrically impossible and doesn’t make sense” only to realize they have giving
Wrong information !!
[ draw me a cartoon and send me a company cam photo or video] it’s about the process
Obviously, this does not apply to a simple troubleshooting job.
We call this Soap { the process }
S- Subjective
O- Objective
A- Assessment
P- Plan
Sorry for being so long winded just sharing another point of view
Keep up the good work with the Chanel
God Bless
Geo
Love the SOAP language. May have to share that with our guys!
I agree. What I do for tracing is I have a 50 ft lamp cord with clips so I can verify continuity from one box to another after disconnecting everything. It’s tedious, but enlightening. (Pun intended.) I also believe in pictures.
The Switch at the Top of the Stair landing should be a 4 Way and the other two switches one at the end of the hallway by the bedroom door and the other at the bottom of the stairs should both be 3 ways !
I'm expecting to remodel a basement in the next year or so, and what I would really like to do is run all the switches and lighting outlets to a dedicated lighting subpanel. This will cost a lot more in copper but it will offer the most flexibility in control and the most ease in troubleshooting. Moreover, if I'm doing the labor it will still cost an order of magnitude less than hiring out to an EC. (Obviously we'll hire an EC to change the panel if necessary and also to evaluate my work before the inspection).
9/6/22; when troubleshooting, 3 ways, I like to have a schematic of the 3 way just as a reference. Then you need to know that the 120vac is dedicated to that circuit is hot and not switched. Then the white or neutral wire must be at the other end of the schematic. Then continue to troubleshoot.
After reading comments it looks like a lot of people are puzzled with your mystery light. Maybe you post a diagram with the voltage readings so that we could try to solve the mystery of the century? 😉
Switching is an area that confuses many electricians and apprentices it would be good to set up. Things get complicated I had a feed into a 3-way switch which was fed off a GFCI/AFCI receptacle it would just trip as the switch was in a larger switch box with other three way switches it was a shared neutral. I had to convert to a temporary solution. A permanent solution would be to separate switches from the two separate circuits and rewire one of the ones that was fed of the AFCI/GFCI to avoid the tripping issues. In your case there is definitely a hidden junction box under a floor, wall or ceiling somewhere. I definitely think in these situations trying to hunt things down in an older house is a maze it’s just easier to rewire.
I've heard of military tech which can image the electromagnetic fields in any space; even inside a concrete bunker. Imagine using that for troubleshooting. No more guessing which wires run where.
I like your videos bro!
Nice to know how to troubleshoot electrical appliances. I’m really tempted to go in your field but not sure what step to take to be honest.
I remember electricain test wire to hot and light on in 1988 druing ceiling fan installed.
I would get some nice fluke crocodile clips this will make it easier and safer to test voltage with loose wires in light fittings and receptacle boxes.
I think the problem is in your daughter's bedroom light. The red wire that comes down to the switch is an extra conductor that shouldn't be hooked up at the light fixture or the switch. The fact that you have to hook it up at the switch means that the bedroom light fixture is wired wron or it is another hidden junction box.
Oh come now, we all know to test for “power” isn’t using a ticker, or touching wires; it’s licking the figures and touching the “hots’😅
Thanks for another great video 😁👍I always wondered how electricians solve these kind of puzzles with concealed wires. Appears that you also dont have a crystal ball 😂
I wanna learn more about the 3:20 segment...
I could hear the non-contact voltage tester beeping as you pulled it away, but then, aside from just "I'm an electrician so I know the risks and what I'm doing," what's the reason that you chose wire-on-wire instead of a multimeter to show and demonstrate the load?
Is that faint spark somehow "different" from what one could see simply from a multimeter?
A 3way switch was used to replace a 4way switch at the top of the stairs?
Just started my own business. $15k in tools in the last year. Going HVAC and electric service. SOLO..
Let us know if you'd like any advice: electric-pro-academy.square.site/!
You may have current on one or two of the pass through wires
Dead end 3way switch loops, genius lmao I'm no licensed pro but that should be obvious
i think the one all three stairway / hallway switches are ment to be 4 way and the previous owner put 3 way
Maybe the junction is at the chandelier at 2nd floor 🤔
How old is the wiring in that house?
Did those two switches ever get figured out? If so, which video is that shown in?
We blanked them and let them be once we had functionality. When we do the whole-home re-wire we'll be sure to post to the channel!
at 10:40 what were the readings on the hallway switch when you flipped it up? and what were the colors of each wire? they looked like they were all black
at 17:15 your test was invalid because the chandelier of bulbs was already on. Adding a hot path to a circuit that's already hot won't cause any arc or spark.
How about a update Joel??
@@ElectricProAcademy
If that is a foreseeable future, will you video it so we can watch?
I like older houses I do
After 35 years my two light switches switching on wrong lights or one light
Never ever touched them or opened them
Just like that they are confused
@@ElectricProAcademy I wish!!!! But that will be way too expensive and time consuming. Wish I was inUSA. Even electricians are kind and don’t dirty the walls and switches and litter the house when the fix anything !!
Allah Give Blessings in your work and Protect you always. 👍🏻
Ok am @ 9:27 mark and I'm screaming 😱 TURN OFF THE BREAKER! Haven't finished video yet but bet 🍩 to a 💵
But I had one that had 4way switches wired from 2 separate lines with NO common Nor Travelers they just broke the Nuterals !!!! Uh yeahi had to correct that one!
I do not know why but I cringe every time he touches wires together.