WHAT???? He lost his job over that??? These people are gonna be taken care of us when we’re old that’s scary!!!!! what’s a dumb down America further holy crud!!!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡😡
What do you all think about the statistics of long Covid and how it’s really paralyzed in the workforce are you saying masks aren’t need it. I mean because the v doesn’t work anymore what happens if another variant comes through that’s is deadly again?? I just like to know where your thoughts are because some people have stated that it’s extremely debilitating? Doesn’t matter if you had a preventative or not apparently it’s a huge percentage of people of the gut or of the society. It’s not a small number. Please look at that and discuss it.
I was just reading it on the American medical association page they recommend an N 95 mask actually that was back in the fourth or fifth month of last year 2022 and Harvard and some other major schools were stating that wearing a mask is very important because you can still get long haulers even with preventatives, and it’s astronomical the percentage of people that are ending up with long hauler. I mean it sounds funny and I want to believe what you all say but I don’t know where is the data?
Listening to Vinay read those emails from the colleges makes me so grateful that the community college where I work has zero mandates related to vaccines or masks.
Retired MD here. A's in Organic Chem 1 and 2. Completely agree on your third point. A basic class teaching all you need to understand the necessary basics of biochemistry without those useless labs is all that is necessary. Biochemistry i would push, even more importantly now. Given the status of physician shortages, we should be educating, not weeding.
I think the idea of a lab is excellent because some of us are hands on learners. Labs help the concepts make sense in a real life setting but labs need to be better.
I teach nursing and have seen students and schools change since Covid. Students do not want to put the work in as much any more and schools are caving to this mind set. It is frustrating and sad because these students are the ones who will be taking care of you and I some day.
I don't think sad is the right word or way to think about it. I think it's dangerous. We say all the time at my job when someone's getting stressed over small details "Calm down, let's figure this out. No one is dying over this shit." Except in healthcare someone could really die over that shit. If I has slacked off while getting my computer science degree and fed some sob story to admin and threatened legal action or whatever is going on behind the scenes I would simply have found myself unable to get work because there's a ton of computer science majors graduating all the time that did pay attention and do know their stuff. Healthcare though... People can die over that shit and unlike in the computer information systems world there is a severe shortage nationwide of healthcare professionals. Especially in the various levels of nursing. Part of that has been coming for a while but there might have been time to fix it if not for COVID. Hospitals are no longer interested in healthcare, they're all about healthprofit. Most municipalities have some legal guidelines regarding patient to care provider ratios and hospitals will just hire anyone who technically fills the requirements and has the right pieces of paper if they have to. And they ARE having to. I have friends in nursing local to me in Western MA and a few other friends in hospital admin and patient safety roles and I hear some fairly horrifying tales about the unqualified nursing staff that they never would have hired being forced on them by some HR hiring manager only concerned with ticking boxes on government forms showing they have the right number of people to patients. I have a very bad feeling that our shitty healthcare system is going to completely collapse at some point in the next few years as lawsuits for disfigurement and wrongful death put hospitals out of business and scare people off of entering the field.
@@LordPadriac I completely agree. Have been a nurse for 24 years and the last couple classes graduating just are different. They don’t want to do anything other than the bare minimum. When they ask for my advice and I tell them the options they decide it is no longer important because they would have to actually do something. That is our job. Evaluation of a patient status and intervening early to prevent and improve worsening outcomes. There are times I and other charge nurses have to call the doctors because they don’t want too. Many of us older ones are getting burned out but I am afraid of what will be left behind. Who is going to take care of me and my family and friends, because there are not many I trust to keep them safe. Catering to these new mindsets of hurt feelings is only going to come back to hurt us all.
Medicare and medicaid reimbursement to physicians is the same as in 2005.... same income with inflation, recession and soon depression... combined with totalitarian leftists in control of medical administration telling young people they need a booster and vaccination that doesn't reduce their risk sufficiently to exceed the combination of known risks and the undetermined future risks... these factors create an environment where people are no longer dedicated to their work.... they are just punching a clock.
What lower division course would you use as a “welder” course? Ochem is pretty critical for a number of reasons. It lays the foundation for upper division (life/health) science classes- organic matter has different properties and types of reactions compared to inorganic (which is what’s taught in genchem). How organic structures are drawn and represented. First intro to analytical techniques that are used in Pharma and biomed sciences. And perhaps most important is the problem solving! The hardest thing I remember about ochem (and I went on to PhD and eventually teach It too) was the open endedness. There was memorization (your toolbox), figure out the “key” to the problem, and apply those tools to solve it. And there’s not always only one path to the solution. That drove me CRAZY initially as a student and was so hard when all I wanted was just to get to the answer. But then it became a puzzle and I ended up enjoying it. You have to be bright, quick, organized, creative, and adaptable to do well in ochem. It’s many many important lessons for the aspiring doctor/scientist/etc in their undergraduate career. Back to the nature of problem solving required to do well in ochem though…. Isnt that what you as doctors do? Look at a problem (your patient’s issue), figure out the issue/root, and go to your toolbox to help your patients? And there’s not always only ONE way to help them? I’ve had many of my former students reach out to me when they were in med school and saying how appreciative they were of how they learned how to think and approach problems from taking ochem!😃
The problem with teaching evaluations is you get nonrandom selection into filling out the evaluations. As such, and unless ALL students are REQUIRED to fill them out, you are just picking up the extremes of the student/grade distribution.
Wow I’m old. I’m 44 and this is the first time that I’ve heard the word “ablist”, lol. I don’t know who hasn’t had horrible professors in college, but I think most of us older folks would’ve never thought of signing a petition to kick a professor out. We would just try to survive the class by any allowed means necessary.
The ability to suck it up and just learn the material from the book was a basic skill back when. You avoided thae professors you hated as much as possible by taking the better class at a horrid time whenever possible. Then you went to the student union and complained to your study group. End of story. There's a lot to admire in the younglings but they do seem to be missing the big picture.
Agreed, that was the mind set of my school days 1960/70s Until recently, I changed careers from litigation law clerk at age 60 and returned to College /university studies to study 3 year advanced degree in medicine for medical massage therapy. Shortly into the program the younger students protested an incompetant teacher who was replaced. To be fair, it sounds harsh, but it was necessary. She was a lovely person and an excellent massage therapist with a thriving practice, but she was not a good fit for teaching our class of 24 students and did not know how to make it work. I am sure she has found her fit somewhere, she had talent and ethics.
I was scanning through my podcast choices, feeling a little bummed that this week's selections were about tapped out when I stumbled onto my favorite dynamic duo! Saved for another hour! Thanks for being here when I needed you most guys!
All of us had a couple of courses that were “weed outs” and regardless of how appropriate that is, I loved the challenge, brought my best, set the curve….and then honestly kind of laughed at the people who didn’t want to put in the work yet still think they “deserve” an A. The discipline needed to get through that stuff is where growth happens. I seek that stuff out
ZD at 55:15 (paraphrasing): “you and I will both cow to the social pressure if everyone in the room is wearing a mask and staring at you for not wearing one.” This is precisely what you need to NOT do! I agree wholeheartedly with VP and ZD’s masking philosophy and I have been a vocal mask skeptic since day 1. But you know what’s more powerful than podcasts and tweets and substack posts (all of which I love)? Actually taking off the fucking mask in the presence of your colleagues! Acting with the courage of your convictions! If you two won’t lose the mask in situations where you think it's worthless (which is almost everywhere, and you can use your own best judgment), then all of the winning arguments you’ve made ring hollow.
Word policing people of general good will has got to stop. Thank you VP for making the point about shaming around language just to feel powerful. You are 100% right that these people will not go to the top to try to generate change. I hear it in meetings all the time. Makes me cringe. I’m old- 58- so now I just say….yeah…. What are the CEO’s and ED’s of your organization saying about this? How are they working to make change in these obvious issues? How are they working amongst themselves to promote justice in the system? Oh- they aren’t? They are waiting for you to dicker over “language”? I just don’t have time for that nonsense -
Saying organic chemistry is useless to modern doctors reminds me of my French teachers ( in French speaking places) who debated the usefulness of teaching Latin to understand. Latin is no longer used, sure, but knowing some Latin basics is tremendously helpful to understanding all Latin based languages. Honestly I would not want a doc that had not displayed competency in organic chemistry. Several times I've asked my doctor questions of mechanism of action. Too many doctors today are incompetent for these important questions. Let's not abandon organic chemistry. Also, I loved organic chemistry. It's IMPORTANT that doctors not only be evaluated on rote learning. Organic chemistry requires UNDERSTANDING. All doctors must do this. MUST.
VP, we pharmacists do need organic chemistry, it’s a basis to understand how meds get absorbed and distributed in the human body, also we actually learn about the different delivery systems of medications. To differentiate between a blue and a green pill is not the only task we do.
I agree with you. It’s the basic to understanding biochemistry and medicinal chemistry. It’s like the ABCs of science. If these students can’t handle organic chemistry, which I actually really enjoyed, they certainly can’t handle medical school courses.
Maybe consider changing how it's taught ... The last few years' discoveries on Insulin and other hormones and their effects on diet and satiety show that the knowledge can be useful when put in context.... It needs to be useful in the context of health and longevity to be of benefit to med students👌
@@mariaespiritu9512 exactly, I really enjoyed it too! It was one of my favorite courses. I don’t see the problem here. Maybe adapt it more to medicine could be an option.
Hey as a right winger I've never heard anyone on the right using the word tribal, or tribalism. The only time I hear that term is on your videos and maybe a little on the left's MSM but quite frankly your show is the only platform I can say for sure!
Both of these guys were spouting the government MSM party line initially and put down anyone who questioned the party line as " conspiracy" theorists. Now they're virtue signaling calling themselves open minded. ZD was especially arrogant.
@@jeantjohson9695should have seen the evidence by the time this show went on air. Much less, should not have been promoting. He really produces a lot of material….. almost like people help him research what to spread
Yes sensible discussion like pushing masks and vaccines with no data and then flipping their position when the data finally comes and pretending it all never happened
I love this. I have missed watching you ,too interact. You can't wear a mask at my bank anymore because the guard will stop you at the door. You also can't wear a hood or anything that with disguise your face.
I totally agree with that. We’ve moved into the phase where criminals are taking advantage of masking. The game is up. I am wary around masked people, particularly those in groups.
Favorite podcast since Episode 1! Thanks for being reasonable voices mixed with humor & science. I’m a pharmacist educated & trained in Richmond, VA @ VCU. All the chemistries (General, Organic, Biochemistry, Medicinal Chemistry, etc) were increasingly challenging, BUT that’s what we signed up for, right?!?! Don’t you (the public) want your pharmacist to have organic chemistry & beyond? If I didn’t want to take those courses, I could choose a profession not heavily based on chemistry.
Here's the story of Doc Damania Who makes songs and "Vaders" on the side He goes by ZDogg And is "alt middle" But he was incomplete It's the story of Prof Prasad He knows ep-idemiology He has a deep voice And calls out nonsense But he was quite alone 'Till the one day when the ZD met the VP And they knew it was love at first sight That the two must form a podcast That's the way they both became the Brainy bunch The Brainy bunch The Brainy bunch That's the way we became the Brainy bunch
I grew up and live in central Kentucky. The community I grew up in was insular but on the edge of what was called the city. The rest of the world was 30-55 minutes away. I’m a child of the 90s, growing up in this time period. Listening to the elders talking about the more insular communities, they would always refer to their behavior as ‘clannish’. The, oh, you don’t stop anywhere in this town over here, because you might get attacked or threatened. And you could get treated like this just because they don’t know you as a part of their community. So. Good replacement word for tribalism, Clannish.
Zdogg you look super cute in specs!! And click and clack would be touched by the very relevant comparison. In a world of mistrust in mechanics, they educated and demystified- as do you do.
Leftist: I can change the world by changing YOU. Conservative: I can change the world by changing ME. You leftists are talking like conservatives. I'm so glad you two are so confusing. The Alt-Middle is disruptive.
Honestly, during my 10 years in university, I went there to LEARN specific sets of knowledge from people more knowledgeable than me. Of the 120 teachers/profs I've had in my life, only a handful were "debatable". I find it amazing that students want to feel more knowledgeable than their profs. What's the dam point of going to uni ?!?!?!
I probably haven’t used my organic chemistry knowledge a single time in my 11 years as an MD. Yet med school never taught me what causes type 2 diabetes. 😡. The system is nearly irredeemable.
Organic chemistry is the only class I got a D in, and I took it twice! I will offer an excuse, the first time I took it our basketball team went to Nationals so I was gone half the time through the playoffs. 🏀 You normally annoy me Zdog, except when you do the Darth Vader. But I really enjoy both of you enjoying each other. You are very joyful and engaged in this conversation with one another, it seems like you like each other a lot, and it's fun to watch.
My son had an exam in Logic (IT) where about everyone flunked. It also was some of all those things you mentioned, the professor was not good at getting things across, the social distanced teaching via Video had problems on both sides and the students were troubled by the lockdowns etc..I do not know about that professors mental abilities...he is ar least still in office
This is weird. I enjoy your frank, lively discussions so much, they really resonate with me and I feel part of your “community” But strangely, right now I am feeling anxious about how I would feel if they were somehow taken away. It is clearly a mass formation effect and I get a sense of how many “covidians” probably feel as many cherished and entrenched narratives are collapsing. On a separate note do you ever foresee the possibility that you could be “captured” / corrupted by entities offering big $$$$$$ as you rise in the hierarchy of authoritative sources of trusted information?
From what I see, I feel like these two guys have already proven, by putting their heads on the “chopping block” through speaking out against the “mainstream,” that they can’t be bought and they are operating primarily on principle and ethics. If worried they will be censored by UA-cam, can find them on their alternative platforms.
I must be an outlier. I L-O-V-E-D organic chem. It was so hard, I worked so hard for my As. It teaches problem solving with visualization of the molecules in your mind. Does it need to be a weed out class? NO. There has to be a better way.
I think Bc it’s the first major “curve ball” class in that you have to seriously work hard to master the material, be adaptable and BE COMFORTABLE, with the fact that there was not always only one right answer. So much open ended ness in how problems could be approached and solved. There’s more than one correct way to do things. When you’re accustomed to memorize/“use this formula to get only this answer” it’s really freaking hard to expand your way of thinking to solve the organic puzzles. That’s just the nature of the class (and science, and being a physician, and so many other things), right? Being given a problem and having to call on all the tools you have in your “toolbox” to find a solution. Most students don’t want to put in that level of work to be on the top end of class.
They pushed the experimental vaccine whole hog at the beginning. Preached everything Fauci without question. This new found " open mindedness" is quite new indeed.
Double agree on cancelling older profs that speak English as a second language for some minor slip where they just aren't up to date with proper terms for things. Sometimes I wish people would try to see when someone has a good heart.
Re: sleep-I say you don’t need to get sleep to get good rest. I hate to waste time in bed at night not sleeping, so I body scan anytime I’m not asleep. That also alleviates the guilt that I have at the end of the day for forgetting my mindfulness throughout the day.
We all know that is not the point though. There is a reason that medical school is difficult There's a reason that the medical fields are difficult just as are other fields because they need people that are able to push through and use critical thinking skills.
@@jenni0278 Sure, but the endurance that’s needed for residency/medical school vs undergrad courses are not even comparable. Rarely do you hear I’m glad I’ve taken ochem because it taught me how to “keep pushing through and use my critical thinking skills” for medical school. This is also coming from someone who did well and was a TA in ochem.
But it laid the base for bio chem and your upper div classes didn’t it? Sure you don’t use organic synthesis as a physician, but the open-ended, not-one-path-to-answer vs black and white answers that were required in gen chem. Different way of thinking snd problem solving. How organic structures are drawn, properties snd reactivity, Which you need in biochem and beyond? Ochem is the foundation for all of that. As well as where you learn about some of the analytical techniques used in pharma.
@@vanessapatman5591 Taking Ochem can help but it also depends on which biochem courses and university are attended. It makes more sense for you guys to use it bc there’s usually more chem courses that are required for you guys to take but I know several students that took biochem prior to ochem and did fine. Also, the biochem course that’s usually needed for premed/mcat is practically all memorization.
EM Twitter makes sense now. I was a follower then May 2020 it became so awful I had to go. I continued to work EM until a year ago when I had to leave. Not bc of the pandemic or pt but bc of the staff. I feel society gave them a unofficial power and they were irresponsible with it.
Why is it so hard for people to understand why a professor would be fired or get horrible reviews? I was in a college math class where in the beginning I had very good repore but because the professor was suspicious of students cheating he would constantly interrupt people during exam time about cover your paper, put your cell phone away. He kept interrupting during exam time then half the class failed & he has years of bad reviews but he’s still teaching. He wasn’t a bad teacher it’s just he treated students poorly & created unreasonable demands.
I typically agree with VP, but I don't when it comes to his take on the lack of necessity for understanding a bit of organic chem for those whose expertise is to tend to people's health. I feel it is helpful to have this background given people are essentially bags of organic chemicals. Particularly, it would be helpful if medical doctors had a better grasp on the mechanism of action of the drugs they prescribed, which is often based on organic chemistry. I would agree future doctors may not need to understand integrals, but I would prefer my doc knew a bit of organic chem. When I went with a relative to her doctor's appointment, the doctor looked at her blood work and noted some liver enzymes were above the reference range. She looked at me and said, "I'm sure you remember what AST stands for better than I do." Hardly reassuring! Senior glasses look good, ZDOGG.
Im not sure that all language is processed in the left. Not for me, anyway. I had a tumor removed from the right frontal/temporal area and my speech was massively affected, in fact that was my biggest symptom. It gave me trouble with spelling, pronunciation, grammar, and word recall. A year and a half after surgery, i still have problems with recall and pronunciation. It also effected my left cheek and tongue so maybe that can be some explanation for the speech issues.
Vinay you’re 100% about the politically correct cancel dynamic. And also you can’t unilaterally deem certain words or phrases that have been part of common speech to be insensitive and them become indignant when someone doesn’t know or god forbid disagree. If it truly bothers your sense of decency then you can communicate your position.
Clinic RN here it’s so shocking when I see a glimpse of my coworkers entire unasked face! I spend 30 hours a week side by side talking to these ppl & am shocked by their naked face! So weird
Regarding schools caving to students, like most things there is probably a lot of grey in there. I certainly don't want to defend institutions that are softening our future, and I agree that there's a lot of pressure on schools to act more like customer service than educational facilities. I also feel like some of the more compassionate educators are looking at these students coming back after having two years of their lives summarily removed from normalcy and perhaps cutting them some slack to help ease them back into it. To hopeful? I sure hope not.
depends on where. They've been pandering to certain sects of kids for a long time. eg I used to work with kids that had Down's. really high function. People have tendency to think that those people are dumb. Most times they're not. They just don't think on the typical plane, and it takes someone that can tell when they're actually having issue, like, they're not a visual learner, and when they just want attention. When all your school's money goes to buying fancy buildings and extra programs that really don't add to getting by in life, as well as mandate the shot, you lose good teachers. Kids take advantage of substitute teachers that aren't wise to their nuances, and when they get caught " omg that teacher is " whatever "ist" they want to use.
Great discussion again! I do respectfully disagree that hypocrisy makes that much of a difference. Whether a tyrant follows their own tyrant rules or not doesn't make their rules imposed on the rest of the public less wrong.
I had a terrible math teach in college. I found that if I went to class and listened and took notes, I'd bomb on his next test. But if I dropped by the classroom just long enough to get the reading assignment, then go away and do the reading, I'd ace the test. For some reason, he was the worst possible teacher for me, but he may have been great for other students.
Live you two! Thought about you when I was in Italy, saw a single guest on a gondola, on the water, mask on but pulled down to chin to signal to his "tribe"
Since when is getting a "C" in a class taught by Maitland Jones Jr. A bad grade? I'd be honored to get a "C" in any of his classes. I have a Bachelor 's degree of Science with a Major in Chemistry. The pre-meds get the good grades leaving the crumbs for those who actually love Chemistry. Purdue used to do a numbers game with a 6.0 grade point average over a 4.0 one. Apparently, I must miss the premeds yacking away in the background because I listen to you two nerds at work all the time. You are funny. I love your perspective on the world. That being said I draw the line at telling millennials to work harder. Work ethic culture is in deline. Those that subribe to it are being worked to death. The railroads will probably go on strike in November shortly after the election One of their union members went to work instead of his doctor's appointment. The railroads have started a point system for attendance. He died on the job. His preventable death has sparked outrage. Maybe everyone needs to work on boundaries with good work ethic, instead of throwing work ethic away.
At my son’s basketball games, one dad would always wear a mask. Except, he would pull it down to cheer for his son and he would shout so loud it was like a sprinkler of saliva going off behind me.
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WHAT???? He lost his job over that??? These people are gonna be taken care of us when we’re old that’s scary!!!!! what’s a dumb down America further holy crud!!!!!! 😡😡😡😡😡😡
You all would honestly wear a mask if everybody else was just because you felt forced to??? What??? Wow!
What do you all think about the statistics of long Covid and how it’s really paralyzed in the workforce are you saying masks aren’t need it. I mean because the v doesn’t work anymore what happens if another variant comes through that’s is deadly again?? I just like to know where your thoughts are because some people have stated that it’s extremely debilitating? Doesn’t matter if you had a preventative or not apparently it’s a huge percentage of people of the gut or of the society. It’s not a small number. Please look at that and discuss it.
I was just reading it on the American medical association page they recommend an N 95 mask actually that was back in the fourth or fifth month of last year 2022 and Harvard and some other major schools were stating that wearing a mask is very important because you can still get long haulers even with preventatives, and it’s astronomical the percentage of people that are ending up with long hauler. I mean it sounds funny and I want to believe what you all say but I don’t know where is the data?
Covid vaccine should be just like a flu vaccine I agree should not be mandated especially in childhood scheduled vax!!!
Listening to Vinay read those emails from the colleges makes me so grateful that the community college where I work has zero mandates related to vaccines or masks.
Retired MD here. A's in Organic Chem 1 and 2. Completely agree on your third point. A basic class teaching all you need to understand the necessary basics of biochemistry without those useless labs is all that is necessary. Biochemistry i would push, even more importantly now. Given the status of physician shortages, we should be educating, not weeding.
I think the idea of a lab is excellent because some of us are hands on learners. Labs help the concepts make sense in a real life setting but labs need to be better.
I teach nursing and have seen students and schools change since Covid. Students do not want to put the work in as much any more and schools are caving to this mind set. It is frustrating and sad because these students are the ones who will be taking care of you and I some day.
As a nurse I hope you have changed nothing to cater to these whiny individuals.
I don't think sad is the right word or way to think about it. I think it's dangerous. We say all the time at my job when someone's getting stressed over small details "Calm down, let's figure this out. No one is dying over this shit." Except in healthcare someone could really die over that shit. If I has slacked off while getting my computer science degree and fed some sob story to admin and threatened legal action or whatever is going on behind the scenes I would simply have found myself unable to get work because there's a ton of computer science majors graduating all the time that did pay attention and do know their stuff. Healthcare though... People can die over that shit and unlike in the computer information systems world there is a severe shortage nationwide of healthcare professionals. Especially in the various levels of nursing. Part of that has been coming for a while but there might have been time to fix it if not for COVID. Hospitals are no longer interested in healthcare, they're all about healthprofit.
Most municipalities have some legal guidelines regarding patient to care provider ratios and hospitals will just hire anyone who technically fills the requirements and has the right pieces of paper if they have to. And they ARE having to. I have friends in nursing local to me in Western MA and a few other friends in hospital admin and patient safety roles and I hear some fairly horrifying tales about the unqualified nursing staff that they never would have hired being forced on them by some HR hiring manager only concerned with ticking boxes on government forms showing they have the right number of people to patients. I have a very bad feeling that our shitty healthcare system is going to completely collapse at some point in the next few years as lawsuits for disfigurement and wrongful death put hospitals out of business and scare people off of entering the field.
@@LordPadriac I completely agree. Have been a nurse for 24 years and the last couple classes graduating just are different. They don’t want to do anything other than the bare minimum. When they ask for my advice and I tell them the options they decide it is no longer important because they would have to actually do something. That is our job. Evaluation of a patient status and intervening early to prevent and improve worsening outcomes. There are times I and other charge nurses have to call the doctors because they don’t want too. Many of us older ones are getting burned out but I am afraid of what will be left behind. Who is going to take care of me and my family and friends, because there are not many I trust to keep them safe. Catering to these new mindsets of hurt feelings is only going to come back to hurt us all.
Retired nurse here. Nursing competency has been on a long slide downhill since diploma programs were fazed out.
Medicare and medicaid reimbursement to physicians is the same as in 2005.... same income with inflation, recession and soon depression... combined with totalitarian leftists in control of medical administration telling young people they need a booster and vaccination that doesn't reduce their risk sufficiently to exceed the combination of known risks and the undetermined future risks... these factors create an environment where people are no longer dedicated to their work.... they are just punching a clock.
What lower division course would you use as a “welder” course?
Ochem is pretty critical for a number of reasons. It lays the foundation for upper division (life/health) science classes- organic matter has different properties and types of reactions compared to inorganic (which is what’s taught in genchem).
How organic structures are drawn and represented.
First intro to analytical techniques that are used in Pharma and biomed sciences.
And perhaps most important is the problem solving! The hardest thing I remember about ochem (and I went on to PhD and eventually teach
It too) was the open endedness. There was memorization (your toolbox), figure out the “key” to the problem, and apply those tools to solve it. And there’s not always only one path to the solution. That drove me CRAZY initially as a student and was so hard when all I wanted was just to get to the answer. But then it became a puzzle and I ended up enjoying it. You have to be bright, quick, organized, creative, and adaptable to do well in ochem. It’s many many important lessons for the aspiring doctor/scientist/etc in their undergraduate career.
Back to the nature of problem solving required to do well in ochem though…. Isnt that what you as doctors do? Look at a problem (your patient’s issue), figure out the issue/root, and go to your toolbox to help your patients? And there’s not always only ONE way to help them?
I’ve had many of my former students reach out to me when they were in med school and saying how appreciative they were of how they learned how to think and approach problems from taking ochem!😃
The problem with teaching evaluations is you get nonrandom selection into filling out the evaluations. As such, and unless ALL students are REQUIRED to fill them out, you are just picking up the extremes of the student/grade distribution.
Good point
Love when the video is up!!! I was needing something to watch while I do dishes and fold laundry! ❤️❤️ love me some VPZD
Wow I’m old. I’m 44 and this is the first time that I’ve heard the word “ablist”, lol. I don’t know who hasn’t had horrible professors in college, but I think most of us older folks would’ve never thought of signing a petition to kick a professor out. We would just try to survive the class by any allowed means necessary.
The three professors everyone else hated I loved and learned the most from. Glad they where not pushed out.
The ability to suck it up and just learn the material from the book was a basic skill back when. You avoided thae professors you hated as much as possible by taking the better class at a horrid time whenever possible. Then you went to the student union and complained to your study group. End of story.
There's a lot to admire in the younglings but they do seem to be missing the big picture.
Agreed, that was the mind set of my school days 1960/70s
Until recently, I changed careers from litigation law clerk at age 60 and returned to College /university studies to study 3 year advanced degree in medicine for medical massage therapy. Shortly into the program the younger students protested an incompetant teacher who was replaced. To be fair, it sounds harsh, but it was necessary. She was a lovely person and an excellent massage therapist with a thriving practice, but she was not a good fit for teaching our class of 24 students and did not know how to make it work. I am sure she has found her fit somewhere, she had talent and ethics.
True!!!
@@butternutsquash6984 YES!!! ❤️
I was scanning through my podcast choices, feeling a little bummed that this week's selections were about tapped out when I stumbled onto my favorite dynamic duo! Saved for another hour! Thanks for being here when I needed you most guys!
All of us had a couple of courses that were “weed outs” and regardless of how appropriate that is, I loved the challenge, brought my best, set the curve….and then honestly kind of laughed at the people who didn’t want to put in the work yet still think they “deserve” an A.
The discipline needed to get through that stuff is where growth happens. I seek that stuff out
ZD at 55:15 (paraphrasing): “you and I will both cow to the social pressure if everyone in the room is wearing a mask and staring at you for not wearing one.” This is precisely what you need to NOT do! I agree wholeheartedly with VP and ZD’s masking philosophy and I have been a vocal mask skeptic since day 1. But you know what’s more powerful than podcasts and tweets and substack posts (all of which I love)? Actually taking off the fucking mask in the presence of your colleagues! Acting with the courage of your convictions! If you two won’t lose the mask in situations where you think it's worthless (which is almost everywhere, and you can use your own best judgment), then all of the winning arguments you’ve made ring hollow.
Very true but I’m the same as VPZD I’ll just pull out a mask in my purse and wear it.
You all caused children to suffer and still are.
The Car Talk reference is spot on. Words shared by the Magliozzi brothers to live by: Unencumbered by the thought process
I have a 2008 Volvo, and I can confirm their diagnosis: all Volvo maintenance jobs cost about a thou!
S/o to the editor kid. You're doing a great job. We all started from illegal child labor.
😂 yup, me too.
Is ZdoggMd still a massive fucking douchebag pushing vaccines onto kids? Seriously, he's responsible for many deaths - in my opinion.
😂😂😂
Could listen to you guys all day. You articulate really well the absurdity we face in this world
Would love to see an episode with Dr. Glaucomflecken on ANY topic!
Word policing people of general good will has got to stop. Thank you VP for making the point about shaming around language just to feel powerful. You are 100% right that these people will not go to the top to try to generate change. I hear it in meetings all the time. Makes me cringe. I’m old- 58- so now I just say….yeah…. What are the CEO’s and ED’s of your organization saying about this? How are they working to make change in these obvious issues? How are they working amongst themselves to promote justice in the system? Oh- they aren’t? They are waiting for you to dicker over “language”? I just don’t have time for that nonsense -
Good morning from Australia, love waking up to the VPZD show 😀
You both, are a breath of TRUTH, and fresh air! Funny as well! You rock, Docs!❤
My FAAAAAVORITE UA-cam talk show!!!! ❤️❤️❤️😂 Always informs me and keeps me laughing!!
I appreciate when you two get together
Saying organic chemistry is useless to modern doctors reminds me of my French teachers ( in French speaking places) who debated the usefulness of teaching Latin to understand. Latin is no longer used, sure, but knowing some Latin basics is tremendously helpful to understanding all Latin based languages.
Honestly I would not want a doc that had not displayed competency in organic chemistry. Several times I've asked my doctor questions of mechanism of action. Too many doctors today are incompetent for these important questions.
Let's not abandon organic chemistry.
Also, I loved organic chemistry. It's IMPORTANT that doctors not only be evaluated on rote learning. Organic chemistry requires UNDERSTANDING. All doctors must do this. MUST.
@@jennifermarlow. Our docs are NOT taught "evidence-based", they do rote-learning, nothing more.
Omg…you have made my day! Thank you!! I so needed this!
Ditto for me! These two are the best!❤
Vinay Prasad is such a smart guy and so articulate in the way he speaks.
VP, we pharmacists do need organic chemistry, it’s a basis to understand how meds get absorbed and distributed in the human body, also we actually learn about the different delivery systems of medications. To differentiate between a blue and a green pill is not the only task we do.
I agree with you. It’s the basic to understanding biochemistry and medicinal chemistry. It’s like the ABCs of science. If these students can’t handle organic chemistry, which I actually really enjoyed, they certainly can’t handle medical school courses.
And at this point in their schooling many haven’t selected their career speciality yet. They may need to understand this discipline later.
Maybe consider changing how it's taught ... The last few years' discoveries on Insulin and other hormones and their effects on diet and satiety show that the knowledge can be useful when put in context.... It needs to be useful in the context of health and longevity to be of benefit to med students👌
@@mariaespiritu9512 exactly, I really enjoyed it too! It was one of my favorite courses. I don’t see the problem here. Maybe adapt it more to medicine could be an option.
Cynthia, MDs always think they're the only ones who need to know anything.
VPZD is the only reason I'm subbed to this channel TBH. Keep it up! Also like when Marty is on the show
We are ZD/VP stans - we know all this already ;)
Organic chemistry exams were exactly like this: a benzene molecule and 11 blank pages: Create life from benzene.
🤣🤣
Hey as a right winger I've never heard anyone on the right using the word tribal, or tribalism. The only time I hear that term is on your videos and maybe a little on the left's MSM but quite frankly your show is the only platform I can say for sure!
Both of these guys were spouting the government MSM party line initially and put down anyone who questioned the party line as " conspiracy" theorists.
Now they're virtue signaling calling themselves open minded.
ZD was especially arrogant.
Complicity. Who took his advice and then died? Or was disabled?
Legalese: “Knew or should have known”
Blue State …..
They're both clowns
@@jeantjohson9695should have seen the evidence by the time this show went on air. Much less, should not have been promoting. He really produces a lot of material….. almost like people help him research what to spread
Bravo, cheers, standing ov, Clap, clap, mush mush .... Thanks for another ripper show.
The only thing missing from this episode is a "Back to Maitland Jones" counter on the bottom right corner
Love , love , love these shows!!!!
My n=1 has shown masking to be 100% effective at preventing meaningful human connection with anyone I didn’t know prior to masking.
Always a treat to hear and see sensible discussion from the Bay Area! More please...
Yes sensible discussion like pushing masks and vaccines with no data and then flipping their position when the data finally comes and pretending it all never happened
I love this. I have missed watching you ,too interact. You can't wear a mask at my bank anymore because the guard will stop you at the door. You also can't wear a hood or anything that with disguise your face.
I totally agree with that. We’ve moved into the phase where criminals are taking advantage of masking. The game is up. I am wary around masked people, particularly those in groups.
Favorite podcast since Episode 1! Thanks for being reasonable voices mixed with humor & science. I’m a pharmacist educated & trained in Richmond, VA @ VCU. All the chemistries (General, Organic, Biochemistry, Medicinal Chemistry, etc) were increasingly challenging, BUT that’s what we signed up for, right?!?! Don’t you (the public) want your pharmacist to have organic chemistry & beyond? If I didn’t want to take those courses, I could choose a profession not heavily based on chemistry.
I think whomever comes up with the jingle should get a special edition ZDogg Co2 meter and cloth mask with VPZD faces on it
Here's the story of Doc Damania
Who makes songs and "Vaders" on the side
He goes by ZDogg
And is "alt middle"
But he was incomplete
It's the story of Prof Prasad
He knows ep-idemiology
He has a deep voice
And calls out nonsense
But he was quite alone
'Till the one day when the ZD met the VP
And they knew it was love at first sight
That the two must form a podcast
That's the way they both became the Brainy bunch
The Brainy bunch
The Brainy bunch
That's the way we became the Brainy bunch
I grew up and live in central Kentucky. The community I grew up in was insular but on the edge of what was called the city. The rest of the world was 30-55 minutes away. I’m a child of the 90s, growing up in this time period. Listening to the elders talking about the more insular communities, they would always refer to their behavior as ‘clannish’. The, oh, you don’t stop anywhere in this town over here, because you might get attacked or threatened. And you could get treated like this just because they don’t know you as a part of their community. So. Good replacement word for tribalism, Clannish.
This is my favorite UA-cam content my friends. You two are good for my soul!
Love your show! I enjoy watching you individually, but you guys are super entertaining together.
Zdogg you look super cute in specs!! And click and clack would be touched by the very relevant comparison. In a world of mistrust in mechanics, they educated and demystified- as do you do.
As a microbiology major I had to take organic,biochem and physical chemistry. Just figured it was to weed out people.
Leftist: I can change the world by changing YOU.
Conservative: I can change the world by changing ME.
You leftists are talking like conservatives. I'm so glad you two are so confusing. The Alt-Middle is disruptive.
Honestly, during my 10 years in university, I went there to LEARN specific sets of knowledge from people more knowledgeable than me. Of the 120 teachers/profs I've had in my life, only a handful were "debatable". I find it amazing that students want to feel more knowledgeable than their profs. What's the dam point of going to uni ?!?!?!
As always, great conversation and blistering comments!
I probably haven’t used my organic chemistry knowledge a single time in my 11 years as an MD. Yet med school never taught me what causes type 2 diabetes. 😡. The system is nearly irredeemable.
Branch Covidians are insane. Thank you VPZD for fighting the good fight on behalf of sanity.
Organic chemistry is the only class I got a D in, and I took it twice! I will offer an excuse, the first time I took it our basketball team went to Nationals so I was gone half the time through the playoffs. 🏀
You normally annoy me Zdog, except when you do the Darth Vader. But I really enjoy both of you enjoying each other. You are very joyful and engaged in this conversation with one another, it seems like you like each other a lot, and it's fun to watch.
Love you two ! Genius is nothing more nor less than childhood recaptured at will.
It’s Vollhardt! Dude I had him too in 2005-06!! He would have pictures of his Ferrari in his ppt slides.
There it is 😂
Vinay, your “speech” at the 26min mark was spot on!
My son had an exam in Logic (IT) where about everyone flunked. It also was some of all those things you mentioned, the professor was not good at getting things across, the social distanced teaching via Video had problems on both sides and the students were troubled by the lockdowns etc..I do not know about that professors mental abilities...he is ar least still in office
This is weird. I enjoy your frank, lively discussions so much, they really resonate with me and I feel part of your “community” But strangely, right now I am feeling anxious about how I would feel if they were somehow taken away. It is clearly a mass formation effect and I get a sense of how many “covidians” probably feel as many cherished and entrenched narratives are collapsing. On a separate note do you ever foresee the possibility that you could be “captured” / corrupted by entities offering big $$$$$$ as you rise in the hierarchy of authoritative sources of trusted information?
From what I see, I feel like these two guys have already proven, by putting their heads on the “chopping block” through speaking out against the “mainstream,” that they can’t be bought and they are operating primarily on principle and ethics.
If worried they will be censored by UA-cam, can find them on their alternative platforms.
I think you need to read the definition of "mass formation effect"
@@emilinebee6280 Brent is correct. It is due to mass formation.
@@emilinebee6280 I understand. Been there, done that. What was strange was recognizing that I am a part of it.
I must be an outlier. I L-O-V-E-D organic chem. It was so hard, I worked so hard for my As. It teaches problem solving with visualization of the molecules in your mind. Does it need to be a weed out class? NO. There has to be a better way.
I think Bc it’s the first major “curve ball” class in that you have to seriously work hard to master the material, be adaptable and BE COMFORTABLE, with the fact that there was not always only one right answer. So much open ended ness in how problems could be approached and solved. There’s more than one correct way to do things. When you’re accustomed to memorize/“use this formula to get only this answer” it’s really freaking hard to expand your way of thinking to solve the organic puzzles.
That’s just the nature of the class (and science, and being a physician, and so many other things), right? Being given a problem and having to call on all the tools you have in your “toolbox” to find a solution.
Most students don’t want to put in that level of work to be on the top end of class.
perfect saturday night activity - catching up on vpzd
God I LOVE this show it always puts a smile on my face & I often Laugh out load. It’s so refreshing, the intelligence, the honesty & the comedy
Laughter is my favorite medicine. You two are a hoot, and every now and then I actually have to think to keep up. ❤
Enjoy watching you both. I’m curious though…is there something you once thought about Covid that you now think is wrong?
They pushed the experimental vaccine whole hog at the beginning. Preached everything Fauci without question.
This new found " open mindedness" is quite new indeed.
These guys? Hopefully everything
As Zdogg pushed masks and vaccines I did the opposite of what he said. Thanks for being smarter than him Vinay
Brilliant. This was one of the good ones :-)
Double agree on cancelling older profs that speak English as a second language for some minor slip where they just aren't up to date with proper terms for things. Sometimes I wish people would try to see when someone has a good heart.
love the dynamic of these two together!
Moe and Curly at it again.
OMG love that your daughter edits the show.
The credentials talk in the first minute 💯 🙌🏽
Re: sleep-I say you don’t need to get sleep to get good rest. I hate to waste time in bed at night not sleeping, so I body scan anytime I’m not asleep. That also alleviates the guilt that I have at the end of the day for forgetting my mindfulness throughout the day.
Students should petition to MEDICAL SCHOOLs who requires the organic chemistry class rather than petition to the professor to make it easier.
As an MD who actually did well in Organic Chem and was a TA, I agree it is outdated and not beneficial in anyway to my work now as a physician.
We all know that is not the point though. There is a reason that medical school is difficult There's a reason that the medical fields are difficult just as are other fields because they need people that are able to push through and use critical thinking skills.
@@jenni0278 Sure, but the endurance that’s needed for residency/medical school vs undergrad courses are not even comparable. Rarely do you hear I’m glad I’ve taken ochem because it taught me how to “keep pushing through and use my critical thinking skills” for medical school. This is also coming from someone who did well and was a TA in ochem.
But it laid the base for bio chem and your upper div classes didn’t it? Sure you don’t use organic synthesis as a physician, but the open-ended, not-one-path-to-answer vs black and white answers that were required in gen chem. Different way of thinking snd problem solving.
How organic structures are drawn, properties snd reactivity,
Which you need in biochem and beyond? Ochem is the foundation for all of that. As well as where you learn about some of the analytical techniques used in pharma.
@@vanessapatman5591 Taking Ochem can help but it also depends on which biochem courses and university are attended. It makes more sense for you guys to use it bc there’s usually more chem courses that are required for you guys to take but I know several students that took biochem prior to ochem and did fine. Also, the biochem course that’s usually needed for premed/mcat is practically all memorization.
EM Twitter makes sense now. I was a follower then May 2020 it became so awful I had to go. I continued to work EM until a year ago when I had to leave. Not bc of the pandemic or pt but bc of the staff. I feel society gave them a unofficial power and they were irresponsible with it.
Just stumbled upon this…absolute 🥇. Keep it up.
33:34 Bahahaha Mad Magazine. Great conversation as always, gentlemen!
Vinay’s hair is perfect!
" i'm gonna go full ableist here....they are unable" - Zdog. LOL, had me dying at work
Why is it so hard for people to understand why a professor would be fired or get horrible reviews? I was in a college math class where in the beginning I had very good repore but because the professor was suspicious of students cheating he would constantly interrupt people during exam time about cover your paper, put your cell phone away. He kept interrupting during exam time then half the class failed & he has years of bad reviews but he’s still teaching. He wasn’t a bad teacher it’s just he treated students poorly & created unreasonable demands.
I was a John McMurry orgo person. Awesome textbook. Hearing orgo brought up brings back a lot of nostalgia.
This is the best one yet guys.😊
I typically agree with VP, but I don't when it comes to his take on the lack of necessity for understanding a bit of organic chem for those whose expertise is to tend to people's health. I feel it is helpful to have this background given people are essentially bags of organic chemicals. Particularly, it would be helpful if medical doctors had a better grasp on the mechanism of action of the drugs they prescribed, which is often based on organic chemistry. I would agree future doctors may not need to understand integrals, but I would prefer my doc knew a bit of organic chem. When I went with a relative to her doctor's appointment, the doctor looked at her blood work and noted some liver enzymes were above the reference range. She looked at me and said, "I'm sure you remember what AST stands for better than I do." Hardly reassuring! Senior glasses look good, ZDOGG.
Im not sure that all language is processed in the left. Not for me, anyway. I had a tumor removed from the right frontal/temporal area and my speech was massively affected, in fact that was my biggest symptom. It gave me trouble with spelling, pronunciation, grammar, and word recall. A year and a half after surgery, i still have problems with recall and pronunciation.
It also effected my left cheek and tongue so maybe that can be some explanation for the speech issues.
You guys make me LOL every time! You’d be so fun to have drinks with 😊
Vinay you’re 100% about the politically correct cancel dynamic. And also you can’t unilaterally deem certain words or phrases that have been part of common speech to be insensitive and them become indignant when someone doesn’t know or god forbid disagree. If it truly bothers your sense of decency then you can communicate your position.
Clinic RN here it’s so shocking when I see a glimpse of my coworkers entire unasked face! I spend 30 hours a week side by side talking to these ppl & am shocked by their naked face! So weird
This is sad
You two are the definition of rational thinking
VP you could make a case for but ZD… not so much.
Omg just brought back my vent alarm ptsd with your super accurate impression! 🤣
Regarding schools caving to students, like most things there is probably a lot of grey in there. I certainly don't want to defend institutions that are softening our future, and I agree that there's a lot of pressure on schools to act more like customer service than educational facilities. I also feel like some of the more compassionate educators are looking at these students coming back after having two years of their lives summarily removed from normalcy and perhaps cutting them some slack to help ease them back into it. To hopeful? I sure hope not.
depends on where. They've been pandering to certain sects of kids for a long time. eg I used to work with kids that had Down's. really high function. People have tendency to think that those people are dumb. Most times they're not. They just don't think on the typical plane, and it takes someone that can tell when they're actually having issue, like, they're not a visual learner, and when they just want attention. When all your school's money goes to buying fancy buildings and extra programs that really don't add to getting by in life, as well as mandate the shot, you lose good teachers. Kids take advantage of substitute teachers that aren't wise to their nuances, and when they get caught " omg that teacher is " whatever "ist" they want to use.
And the students and anyone can destroy a career and a life of another for little to no reason.
Great discussion again! I do respectfully disagree that hypocrisy makes that much of a difference. Whether a tyrant follows their own tyrant rules or not doesn't make their rules imposed on the rest of the public less wrong.
Thank you!
Z Dogg is even hotter with glasses. Happily married but not dead ! :)
I had a terrible math teach in college. I found that if I went to class and listened and took notes, I'd bomb on his next test. But if I dropped by the classroom just long enough to get the reading assignment, then go away and do the reading, I'd ace the test. For some reason, he was the worst possible teacher for me, but he may have been great for other students.
I was like that in statistics.
You guys are amazing!!! I love watching you guys!!!! ❤❤❤
Live you two! Thought about you when I was in Italy, saw a single guest on a gondola, on the water, mask on but pulled down to chin to signal to his "tribe"
I support the jam session!
I love you guys together! Thank you.
82 of 300 negative reviews gets you fired? I’m not a mathologist but I think we are all going to be fired.
Since when is getting a "C" in a class taught by Maitland Jones Jr. A bad grade? I'd be honored to get a "C" in any of his classes. I have a Bachelor 's degree of Science with a Major in Chemistry. The pre-meds get the good grades leaving the crumbs for those who actually love Chemistry. Purdue used to do a numbers game with a 6.0 grade point average over a 4.0 one. Apparently, I must miss the premeds yacking away in the background because I listen to you two nerds at work all the time. You are funny. I love your perspective on the world. That being said I draw the line at telling millennials to work harder. Work ethic culture is in deline. Those that subribe to it are being worked to death. The railroads will probably go on strike in November shortly after the election One of their union members went to work instead of his doctor's appointment. The railroads have started a point system for attendance. He died on the job. His preventable death has sparked outrage. Maybe everyone needs to work on boundaries with good work ethic, instead of throwing work ethic away.
Us dietitians needed Ochem. If you passed, you were a legend! Lol. Don't know how I did it. It's all a blur. 😂
Vinay, you can’t conflate OChem as a rote memorization class.
Car talk fanfare is 100% A+
At my son’s basketball games, one dad would always wear a mask. Except, he would pull it down to cheer for his son and he would shout so loud it was like a sprinkler of saliva going off behind me.