What Really Helps Trauma? | Dr. Jacob Ham, Being Well Podcast
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- In one of the most interesting conversations we've had on the podcast, I'm joined by clinical psychologist Dr. Jacob Ham to explore what really helps people work with - and be with - trauma.
We began with Dr. Ham's background and what drew him to trauma work before I ask him how he "conceptualizes" different kinds of traumatic experiences. Dr. Ham responded to this question in a way I didn't expect, that broke the pattern of a typical podcast conversation, and took us in a much more interesting direction.
We talked about cultivating a felt sense of connection, empathy as a way in to relationship, and the value of anger. Dr. Ham shared about his own process taking risks as a clinician, using parts work, moving away from the "false idol" of cognizing, and finding a unique way in for each individual.
About our Guest: Dr. Jacob Ham is a clinical psychologist, Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Mount Sinai, and the Director of the Center for Complex Trauma. He's the therapist former podcast guest Stephanie Foo wrote about in her wonderful book What My Bones Know.
Key Topics:
0:00 Introduction
2:30 Jacob’s background
5:20 A felt sense of connection vs. the "false idol" of cognizing
11:50 A monastic, medical, and artistic approach
14:25 Knowing our intentions, and feeling others’ pain as a therapist
18:05 Surrendering to overwhelming grief
22:50 Love, vulnerability, and authenticity
29:35 The value of anger, the energy it demands, and navigating it with humility
36:25 Presence, and taking risks as a clinician
42:20 How Jacob does parts work, and finding what works with each individual
48:15 Staring at the finger that’s pointing at the moon
51:30 Does a good therapist need to have experienced trauma?
55:00 Honoring our inner protectors, surrendering to pain, and knowing it won’t last forever
59:10 Shaping others’ ability to help you, and processing trauma without professional help
1:03:15 Tipping points and surrender
1:07:25 Recap
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Who Am I: I'm Forrest, the co-author of Resilient (amzn.to/3iXLerD) and host of the Being Well Podcast (apple.co/38ufGG0). I'm making videos focused on simplifying psychology, mental health, and personal growth.
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🌍 www.forresthanson.com
📸 / f.hanson
I am crying watching a therapist explain how he processes hearing about trauma. As a reteller of stories of trauma, it can be so retraumatizing to have your story land on a stone face or stone heart. This is a revolutionary and essential and human viewing/learning/listening/processing for all therapists. Stop being professionals 100% of the time and please, please start using your skills and show up with us as people. We need this.
I totally get what you're saying about the dearth of professionals educated and prepared to assist those with trauma. Might I kindly suggest that one thing which may work for you is finding a therapist who is certified in EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing). I suggest that because having an EMDR-trained therapist really aided me several years back. Others on this thread may have additional suggestions. I wish you the best!
So well said. I am exhausted by meeting the "stone face." Invalidation on top of invalidation on top of invalidation only serves to re-enforce the hopeless, lonely, empty existence of a motherless child. (I used your stone face description in a comment I made to the podcast.)
@@nancybartley4610for me it’s not about being professional. It’s tricky to know what reaction to use for each person. Some people are so used to everyone reacting in horror when they tell their story that reacting with a polite face can be exactly what they need to start feeling and thinking differently.
Other people need may need a completely different reaction. It’s all coming from an empathetic, emotional place focused on care for that particular person.
❤THANK YOU 4 THIS❤
The retelling doesn't need to happen to process the trauma. It retraumatizes you and now the therapist. I helped mine with EMDR on flashbacks. No talking about it. Not necessary in order to work. Also the visualization I mention in the comment about was very effective for me.
Intellectualization is my primary defense mechanism and this is probably the most impactful interview I have ever seen. Thanks for this.
When Dr. Ham said that he chose psychology because he gets to paint pictures with his patients, that's when he totally won my little heart
I know right.
“Surrender to the pain of it, to accept that it’s going to be a brutal painful experience, but know that it isn’t going to last forever. When you allow your heart to be shattered, it actually makes it bigger and more flexible and it can contain more of life’s experiences and more love and joy as well. And so you surrender to the whole death experience of severe pain knowing that you will be reincarnated into a greater capacity for living the next moment.”
"If you are not healing and growing, I think you're doing therapy wrong"- Dr.Ham
It would be a gift to work on my C-PTSD with Dr Ham. Thank you for sharing and presenting this deeply touching podcast, Forrest. 🙏🏼💞
This quote stood out to me as well.
Wow...🙏. So insightful ..Dr Ham...
Thank you for being real and honest ...
Hanson is not as in touch with his own emotions...😔
Dr. Ham is amazing. I need someone like him to witness some of my traumas. I’m 70 and still struggling with unbelievable abuse from my childhood.
I can relate.
I'm so sorry ....😓😓🙏
"Trauma puts you in a box. Compartmentalizes you. You become a fixer, a pleaser.... You lose connection with what you really feel. You dissociate, you numb out. Or you just become dysregulated. Or you're lost in old patterns of reenactment." Yep.
Jacob became a monk - but not in the way he thought he would. He was promoted.
Beautiful
Some monks need to do their work outside of this context, sharing their perception with the world through a different path, and it's incredibly valuable
I was not expecting what I received when I listened to this podcast. Just being an observer, a hearer of this conversation was incredibly moving to me, in an even stronger way than I have ever personally experienced during my own therapy with multiple therapists. From Dr. Ham's understanding and interpretation of the tenants of psychology and trauma to the simple ways we can heal-- like the gentleness he shows to himself if something he does in good faith isn't well-received-- I was overcome with gratitude for this expansive, vulnerable, open, and holistic way of covering trauma. I would sure love to be your patient, Dr. Ham.
Secondly, I have to commend Forrest. As someone who interviews experts in their fields, where the expanse between the two of them has the potential to be vast, I am humbled by the sincere curiosity and interest (even humor!) in which Forrest responds to them, never taking offense or feeling shame. Forrest, the way you demonstrate HOW TO LEARN is very helpful, and rare to be honest. Thank you so much for hosting this wonderful podcast. When I am in a low place, feeling the most vulnerable, your podcast (and your dad's) is the only one I feel safe with and trustworthy. You are very skilled and gifted in the ways only you can be, as the unique human you are. Thank you.
Although this was an absolutely fascinating conversation, and I must admit that Dr. Ham is a genius, I was also left feeling rather frustrated by some of the things he said. In one breath, he says that there is nothing you can do to heal from trauma, and in the next, he says you just need to ugly cry. Crying IS doing something. Screaming IS doing something. Being an empathetic witness for someone else IS doing something. Going through a grief ritual IS something!!
I have also found EMDR to be astonishingly helpful in my own healing from trauma. I went into it having not read anything about it, so it can't have been a placebo effect, but I was astounded when a single 5-10 minute session of EMDR released the pain and horror of my trauma memories. (Not immediately, if anyone wants to try it. It took about 24 hours to sink in.) I also found it SUPER helpful to intellectually understand how my brain responded to trauma, why my body reacted how it did, etc. That was all instrumental in letting go of the shame I felt around my abuse and sexual assaults. And journalling gets jumbled thoughts out of my head and onto the paper, so that I stop being unable to sleep at night as it all churns around inside. So YES, there ARE things you can do!! It's not all bullsh!t!
Audacious and ballistic. Provocative. Antidogmatic. Dynamic. Real AF. Indeed, away from the rigid cognition habit. Art. I can understand the desire that Dr. Ham write a book to further communicate his approach, but also perhaps how it may go against the nature of how fine tuned this type of work/art he describes. Fruitful mind shift indeed. Thank you both!
❤^
Forest, you have such a talent for navigating conversation. I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate your interviews!
This. ^
Excited. Love Dr.Ham and there isn't enough of him on the internets
Completely agree
This is very challenging to my usual approach - but it’s so appreciated. A genuine surrender to grief, honouring emotional pain and rituals of community care are so alien to the bounds of what is considered ‘acceptable’ in our society.
There’s no intellectual override to suffering, uncertainty and injustice within the authentic human experience. It’s only something that can be bore witness to, accepted, honoured and released.
I love your desire to change in positive ways, Forrest
Just knowing that this remarkable therapist exists, works, might influence others is a beacon of Hope in dark times. Thank you for making this video and sharing it.
Beautifully put 😌💕
I love what Dr. Ham said about the pain of childbirth & how we choose it. When I was pregnant with my first child, I asked my Mom just how painful labor would be. She stopped and looked right at me & said, Sweetheart, the pain is unbelievable. This is hard labor that you’ve never done. It comes faster & faster in waves and just when you think that you might die. . .it’s over! God willing, they hand you that healthy, beautiful, bundle of joy & all the pain is forgotten!! I love that my Mom loved me so much that she wanted me to be prepared!! Everything she said was true!!
Problem is that there is no one to witness for a lot of people. So, how do you move through the "really hard stuff" complex trauma and grief when you don't have an "incredible" support system or a highly educated clinical psychologist?
To think that he could have been hidden away in a monastery! I'm glad he chose to share his views and gifts so broadly... what a blessing to humanity.
This podcast is the crack I have been seeking all along. I can't thank you enough
😂😂
I thoroughly enjoyed this. What an amazing way to express sharing in our human experience, with honor, authenticity, and grace. I always feel we can’t give the full cup (of love) unless we have known, and experienced the deepest heartaches and pains, that’s how the heart becomes an ocean. It is the surrendering, sitting in that place, and just allowing ourselves to feel the journey we all share. Giving ourselves forgiveness in the ways we manage our own pain, our response to others in that intimate space, with a knowing there is healing, strength and a greater perspective being accomplished even if in that moment we don’t know the destination. I’m no clinician by any means, but as a widower of almost 10 years, and a son of a father who suffered with PTSD, addiction, and mental health issues, I’ve sat with a variety of emotions, within myself, and with many others who have experienced a similar path. All you can do is surrender, and allow yourself to feel your way through it. I believe hope lives in those moments when the rawness of our deepest pains reminds us of just how alive we truly are. It always amazes me how much we come to understand more about ourselves when we walk hand in hand with another during their times of suffering. It can be overwhelming, triggering, and I feel that’s ok, because if it not we would be denying the authenticity of our own emotions and journey. I find so much gratitude when I reflect back on each of these unique shared experiences, and my own. How beauty and love blooms from suffering, and it makes it all worth it. I could listen to Dr. Ham for hours probably, but I’ll end with touching on one thing he said that really hits home. That when we allow ourselves to dive in to the freezing water ( whatever the situation ) we do find ourselves at times afraid that we will make a mistake. I think it’s important to have grace in those moments, and know- we are just doing our best. Wrapping your souls hug around another’s pain is extremely powerful and humbling. Thank you so much for sharing this conversation for others to hear and gain from. It was moving.
Holy cats! This is the practitioner who started my journey of looking at my stuck-ness in a whole new way. "The water is still cold. At some point you still have to jump in. It's going to be scary." That is exactly what I need to hear today. What a gift to find a therapist willing to fight with a patient who is hiding out in intellectual bypass.
Dr. Ham, thank you for being a guest on podcasts! I gobble up every one I can find because I think your insight is revolutionary and has the potential to improve the entire field of mental health. Also, your explanations are a breath of fresh air and relief, the feeling I always wished I got from therapy but never have. Thank you for putting yourself and your ideas out for the public.
I see a new being well podcast, I click
I've listened t this channel for dozens of hours by now. And while the talks are illuminating in a teaching sense, that same thing usually comes with a gap between the expert and the listener. It's been in the back of my mind a few times, how it often sound too academic and detached. It has its advantages, of course. I've learned tons of terms and patterns here. But it lacked exactly what Dr Ham delivered since minute one. It made me smile so hard to get to see him be this raw, abandon rigidity and highlight how this is, in the end, a relational job. It's one on one, each person a world. I'd love to hear him talk about things like today's loneliness epidemic. I'll be heading to his channel next, and see what's already shared there. I always love to add one more point of view in my journey of self exploration.
Thank you both for this experience.
So many counselors say they dont need the details. They dont want the trauma or they dont have the time? They just want the broad strokes..this man seems to break the rules. Maybe it is the telling of the details that helps people heal their trauma. He also said therapist without trauma history may be better equipped to help, so they dont get triggered. A followup question on what to do if you do get triggered as the therapist would have been interesting.
18:21 ‘… the best way to honor how difficult it is [for them] is to allow it to be really difficult for you too…’
As someone who doesn't get very emotional during therapy, and always assuming the problem was me, it was very eye-opening for me to hear that there are other therapists who involve themselves in the healing process with you.
Me search is research. ❤ And ugly crying with each other’s pain is genius. This Genius/BS Approach is deeply insightful in it’s paradoxical yet common sense knowing, that we’re SUPPOSED to be sobbing and or barfing about hearing deep, to the bone suffering. It’s the subtle way that so few of us have been able to grasp. What a gift the internet is to help us uncover fully. Grateful to you both. 🙏
Dr. Ham is truly an artist... I love the poetic way he says things. Thank you for this vid-- it shared some really amazing perspectives.
In therapy recently, I'd just begun to see through my transference and drop the fear around it. Unfortunately, my therapist had begun his own countertransference and I couldn't find the bandwidth to hold both of those realities.
My efforts are in hope of greater sanity, but theirs was in defense of their position and reputation.
It felt like such a loss to leave but in the end I did actually choose my self over people pleasing.
🙃
21:00 minutes in and I’m very impressed and moved by Dr. Ham. What a soulful, heart centered, empathetic and courageous man. 💕🙏🏼
Extraordinary interview, that rocked me like the first book I read by Irvin Yalom- When Nietsche Wept. Jacob Ham strikes me as the next brilliant light in this lineage. I hope he writes lots of books! Forrest, you are so very present and articulate and insightful as well. Thank you so much for this.
I've recently realized how curiosity and compassionate self-reflection (through artistic practice/creative inquiry) have been my most powerful and reliable companions throughout my life since childhood- in navigating the good, the bad, the ugly situations... I still struggle with rumination and despair. But I agree that anger, when kept in check, has helped light the fire in me to not give up in/on life. Growing up in an East Asian household where I practiced rituals and traditions like honoring the dead, celebrating new beginnings, I agree also in the power of rituals as active interconnection with all beings and life itself. I keep various altars for dreams, ancestors, deceased pets, etc, burn incense in their honor and recite a brief prayer each morning. It brings me much calm, grounding and support to start off another new day with gratitude for still being alive and healthy. Holding Mealtimes for myself are also rituals to me- I want to extend that to regular group meals (similar to the Jewish rituals/ tradition of shabbat) as I really do enjoy cooking and sharing meals in the company of friends.
Excellent conversation! Loved the flow, genuine dialogue, and holding space to grow together by delving into tough topics with love and openess. Keep up the great work!
This was a fantastic interview with many revelations, but the question still remains, if you need to tell someone your trauma and conventional therapists are not equipped to handle it, and your friends are unlikely to want to carry this burden. If you even would feel comfortable sharing with them, who do you talk to about this? I have had a series of childhood and adult trauma, and have yet to scratch the surface in terms of releasing and healing. I spent a lot of time reading books and listening to podcasts such as this, journaling, being a nature, etc., therapy but if it comes down to saying it out loud to another human being, what do you do?
I don't know but I relate. Maybe that peice helps us?❤
There are people who are willing to listen, therapists or not. Don't give up searching!
There are a lot of different 12 step support groups that can be very helpful in that regard. I can relate tho, it's difficult for me to open up & trust. Wishing you the best!!❤
Hi, its a tough one, and cost does come in to it (mostly anyway unless you can get some one thats affordable for you) and often you need to use more than one tool at different stages, main thing is you have started.
Some practices body based will slowly release some layers of trauma , this can be a valauble aid as slow is usually better. Sometimes you will be just ready to release a particular chunk of some trauma, its not a head thing your body dictates the timing. you might find yourself drawn to book some workshop etc and it fits perfect as something pops out. Now see Im not expert at all just sharing to maybe help? I have tried out several types of systems, very small amount yoga but sa how it released stuff held in my heart.
Group energy healing theraputic workshops and the tears just fell and fell after the accident. Sitting with a high vibration teacher will vibrate all that is not of highest good ouyt of your body (in time), body based therapies etc but you need to have a support around you for when the stuff gets painful, between a group/counsellor and good friend or all of the above, along with living life as we do.
But this basic you prob know this.
I rem doing a therapeutic training where we had to write down on key times in our life when the traumatic events happened in a present moment style "im 21 and Ive just crashed the mbike, Im lying in hosp I feel..." etc etc well the sobbing began X j
I also relate. It's a tricky one to navigate as it really depends on your support network, and if you have a few strong relationships with people who you feel you can trust..it also depends on what is going on in the lives of these people, whether they have the bandwidth to be able to witness and hold space for you.
If you feel hesitant when you think about this or have doubts, it's important to trust your gut. Otherwise it could blow up if it is too much for them to bear, or they aren't in the right space themselves for whatever reason.
There is nothing more painful than opening up to people who you thought you could rely on, only to be faced with reactions that make you feel even more alone. This only adds to the trauma and can potentially destroy relationships.
I know from experience as it happened to me, and it was soul destroying to have everyone turn away when I was falling apart.
At the time I felt distraught and totally abandoned, and my traumatized lens caused me to question everything, my relationships and my poor judgement. In retrospect, I can see it was more about the timing, as they were seriously struggling with stuff in their lives and had to prioritize their limited energy..of course I took this very personally as I couldn't reconcile their checking out.
I wish I could turn back the clock and change things, but I was too traumatized to sense what was safe/ unsafe.
It all contributed to a prolonged breakdown as I fell apart through the destruction of each of my relationships.
Time will tell if they will be capable of repair in the future, but I've had to let them go to focus on healing.
Best of luck to you
Truly ugly crying, Dr. Ham you are a gift to the world
I’ve followed Dr Hams work for awhile and it never occurred to me his saying “that’s stupid” etc. (in a friend-type way) would be construed as anything other than caring and intimate. He destroys all the therapisty bullshit and mass respect for bringing it once again to this interview. So uncompromisingly here again and again. It brought me deep down into my world and healed me so much, you have no idea Dr ham. I hope you keep doing appearances and keep on being you.
What a gift you had Dr Ham on the outcast- I discovered him thru the bk. what my bones know. I have totally appreciated his podcast and his values towards presence and warm humanity.
As a woman driver in one of the harshest cities in the world to drive in - Delhi - I found myself smiling in amusement at a car speeding and cutting me off while blaring an illegal siren. I would have got so dysregulated and rageful normally but I was listening to this interview just before. Shows that even a conversation about the right therapy with the right therapists is therapeutic hahaha. Thank you to both Forrest and Jacob for this gem of an interview. When Jacob wonders at around 50:00 if the regulating effect extended to listeners as well, here I am telling him that it did ❤
Dr. Ham your ability to love and mirror real equality with others is the hope for the world. We all have within us an ability to heal each other when we pay forward the love and healing we have received. Compassionate witnessing from a friend did more to heal my trauma than 25 years of therapy looking for the Therapist that was going to save me. Walking through the deep dark truly helped me to find the wonder and magic that exists within. It is a paradox and a higher dimension of existence. You offer the true Sunlight of the Spirit. Thank you
Oh my goodness. What a wonderful interview. I am a trauma therapist and I just think Dr. Han would amazing to consult with and learn from.
What a great video, and i felt a moment of 'support' to how i felt and how i need to heal. You are right, you need someone to be with you while you heal. Conventional therapists just seem to follow a scrpt sheet, and for me that did not work and they didnt understand where i was coming from.Thankyou Dr Ham,so much for doing this video with Forrest.
I'm only a third of the way through this video and I'm sobbing. This man understands trauma and healing in such a profound and beautiful way. What a gift this conversation is.
The first therapist I ever worked with helped me become aware of how I tune out and shut down whenever I get overwhelmed. I would not have otherwise been aware. She helped open my eyes to that. I also really appreciate what you have to say about ritual!
That seem so helpfull. My therapist did not even recognize the trauma. The only thing I got was"Well it seem a hard live" and that'it. How it affected me, what can I do about it remained in the air
I am a therapist, and you should know, that the mechanisms and teraphy Dr. Ham is describing, is widely used in Gestalt therapy.! Where the meeting between the therapist and the client creates a "field" - an artistic flow - where healing can take place. Where a flow is achieved from the client and the therapist ideally follows it. Process and intention is always center. However as a therapist, you must be bold and direct sometimes to cut off the clients overthinking or spending time on useless stories. Where you as the therapist cannot feel connection to the client and where the client avoids the pressing issues. If flow is achieved, the most pressing issues - the "gestalt" - can be addressed one by one. Relieving the problems as they are addressed.
Thank you for the Gestalt therapy explanation. Rick has mention gestalt in a few different talks, if I remember rightly it is fulfilling a sequence out… coming full circle and being able to be at rest with the result, as before it would have felt as if you were lacking a ‘desirable/acceptable ending/ conclusion to something set in previous motion. There is something said to being in the moment and being present…. When someone has truly blessed you by doing this… most horrendous situations that one can experience … can be endured and you will have a good chance to move forward.
The best way to honor how difficult the experience was is to let it be difficult for you too. I think I heard Dr Ham correctly. I agree completely. The most healing human experience is being seen, heard, witnessed with compassion. All medical training and particularly psychological training should be rooted in this. Sharing one’s pain to a dispassionate therapist is excruciating and dehumanizing. Thank you for this great interview!
I'm really glad Forrest had Dr Jacob Ham on the podcast as Dr Ham brought up things with Forrest that I have felt needed addressing. I don't think Forrest's realises the extent to his detachment to emotional states and as a person who is making youtube videos about mental health and they way he is with his partner Elizabeth this is very important he realises this.
I do feel expansive listening to Dr. Ham.
It's all bs is so true; need to find a psychologist like Dr Ham who honors and welcomes all the parts of humanity authentically. Wow.
Incredible interview. Thank you. ❤
Absolutely loved talking with Dr. Ham
I was absolutely spellbound by this episode...and in fact had to listen/watch in chunks so that I could just sit with all that I had heard and how it washed through me. If you had actually had a "call in" component on this episode, I would have been in the queue for sure. This is precisely how I want to be showing up for my family and friends....and thanks to IFS, the Being Well Podcast, Andrew Huberman, Dr. Rick Hanson and a plethora of other incredible resources, I feel that I am learning more skills, tools and deeper understanding than I ever knew was possible. I listen to a lot of podcasts and read many books, but this episode is a standout for me and one that I will listen to over and over. I am changed by this incredibly touching conversation. Thank you. I'll be sharing this episode on my social media, My Daily Gummies of Wisdom, my blog on personal growth and emotional health, and with my friends and family members.
Thank you!
This is my healing journey and I haven't heard a therapist speak in such a way, I couldn't agree more. I want to become a therapist like him.
I love this channel. I’ve been 🎧 ng and sharing for a few years now. Natural gifted speakers! Well educated.
Caller number 63 here… listening to WKRNP FM ….’Therapy across the telephone wires’ ….I can tell by the many comments offered that this talk with Jacob resonated in an inspired and thought provoking outcome. He comes across as a grounded and approachable man. And with a truly encompassing use of communication, when being a wordsmith is taken as a gift to describe , connect and enlighten people- rather than a tool for upmanship or in some academic circles, the need to be exclusive and / or puritan. I could easily see him adrressing another topic with you &/or with the addition of Rick, as a trio I feel a lot of ground could be explored and easily traversed. Jacob mentioned his 20 years in the profession and he lives to tell the story…. In a light, caring and connected way. As he mentioned himself, witnessing your own and others heartache and suffering can be intense. Really enjoyed this session and it’s insights, thank you gentlemen…. That will be all. 😮
This was wonderful, I listened to it twice! Amazing job Forrest.
I loved reading about Dr Ham’s work with Stephanie Foo in her book on CPTSD. Great show!
Thank you for this. The arts, the science, and the "woo" need to hold hands more often to bring about healing, growth and insight.
That was amazing. Jacob seems to have a similar peace-filled soul of Jackie Chan (who is a personal hero) ❤
I’m happily surprised to see this episode posted today. Thank you for your deep dives around this topic. ❤
A zero ACE score... I can't even fathom that. I had all 10. I did have protective factors, and privilege, that helped me stay somewhat stable, albeit dysfunctional, through about 20 years of "adulthood" (I was in an adult body, but had the emotional maturity of a 5 year old). Eventually though, my coping mechanisms and survival strategies resulted in life implosion / character suicide. There was nothing of substance inside the ego's facade and the foundation, of course, was unstable. I think one of the things that helped me was that I had no idea that my childhood experiences were "traumatic". None of the adults in my life saw them as a big deal. I didn't either. I was raised by the generation that coined the term "snowflake", with an attitude that it happened to me and I was "fine". I learned to mask early on and did a pretty fair job at being who I was "supposed to" be.
But, I had no integrity, or connection to my Soul. I play acted the roles I'd been taught to hold.
I was 42 when I connected my inability to say no and the people pleasing to the CSA I'd experienced. I looked up symptoms of survivors and was dumbfounded. I literally stared at the screen in disbelief. The list of symptoms completely described my "personality", even the "flaws" I struggled to admit to myself. The author, who had never met me, seemed to know me better than I knew myself.
I ended up having a personality collapse when I realized that everything I believed, including "who" I believed myself to be, and every value I held, was something that was adopted. At that point, I had so little body awareness, I didn't even know emotions were a felt experience.
That was about 10 years ago. I've had such a journey of discovery. And yes, it's a process of unfolding.
The first resource I found was Bradshaw's video "Healing the Shame that Binds You." It was revelatory, as though a light had been turned on. I finally understood what was "wrong" with me.
For me, psychoeducation has been an invaluable tool. Although healing isn't a cognitive process, and goes much deeper than intellectual understanding, learning has not only been a source of comfort and a means of gently uncovering what I didn't know, but has also led me to resources and tools for my journey. No, understanding Fawning and healthy boundaries didn't give me the skills to advocate for myself or say no. But understanding polyvagal theory and knowing to restore a sense of safety, in with my body, helped me develop the skills. Knowing what constituted an unsafe person helped me begin to trust what I felt. Gabor Mate's work helped confirm many of my personal insights (such as knowing the physical health symptoms I was struggling with were connected to the unhealthy relationships I engaged in). Understanding opened the door.
I write extensively about my journey. I've found that my ability to articulate my experiences has been a resource and tool for others (if you want to check out a group I write for, it's in FB and is called "Wholeness Remembered"). There are so many of us on this path of Self-realization.
You are worthy and precious. Your tender heart matters. I love you 💕
I can tell you write about it from your comment, you've synthesized this beautifully I can imagine all the work it took to get to this point. Cheers to you, continue to reap your harvest and help others if and when you can ❤
Wow! Also my approach to teaching my students. Find a way in with/for each student. The joy for me is the trust we develop allows me to see and love and think well of and care for and hopefully inspire and advance each individual mind and body. The human connection there is profound and healing and dynamic. The idea that I'd come up with my own book of pedagogy is totally odd to me. What would I say? The book would have one page which would read, "Be a human being relating to another human being." Fabulous guys! Thank you. I was riveted to this conversation.
When Jacob suggested making space for the listeners I literally burst into tears...
This guy is brilliant! When I finally gave up having to "do something" about my feelings of grief and trauma it was the ultimate relief!! I found I could go through it, survive, and even experience happiness and contentment again. Turns out that panicky fear when the feelings came up were a much bigger problem than the feelings themselves. So glad Dr Ham is here sharing this vital truth.
Forrest, thank you so much for this incredible interview.I like this channel a lot, but this one was truly exceptional; the most moving interview I've ever seen on trauma. It was almost like a therapy session in itself. I'm sure I will watch this one many times. I've had What My Bones Know in my Audible library for some time now; and I'm very excited to read it.
You ARE indeed an artist!!!
As a cashier in a grocery store I've had to come to terms with being what I call a "foundational stone" in day to day 5 minute relationships (although a few have turned into genuine friendships).
The last 10 years I've toyed with going back to school and joining the counseling/therapy field, but every time I came close something reminded me that we need emotionally available people outside of fields that are often inaccessible financially and logistically.
A similar idea with my desire to become an artist. If I had I would have spent much more time in isolation which nearly killed me by way of alcoholism some years back.
What and who I am is all in my head.
Love this comment. Thank you.
wow that was so powerful. It reminded me of the conclusion of Oliver Burkemens book the Antidote- 'cultivate your awe' - it is really the only way forward. Such a great interviewer Forrest
Being HEARD... properly, purposefully, intently, compassionately HEARD... is how you help someone get into presence in my experience. One of my partners managed to do this in a text chat from 3500km away in another state... so you don't even need be in the same room.
Sounds like what we do in Re evaluation co counseling. Harvey Jackins. Guide each other toward big feelings. Express the feelings however they come out of the body and mind and discharge the old feelings which clears our present time vision of old patterned behavior. Jackins, of course was not the first person to think of this....the old adage - A good cry clears the air - comes to mind.
He process the trauma he hears with beautiful perspective and articulate it really well
There is so much beauty in this. ❤
I like that the anger is trying to bring you through to presence. Listen❤
Best advice from a psychiatrist who suffered horrific abuse said...if it isn't impacting you, leave it alone. Unless you are having flashbacks and intrusive thoughts etc...don't go there. Only if you need to. Your subconscious buries what you are not able to handle for a reason. The body is intelligent. If it's coming up, then deal with it. Emdr is amazing in that you don't need to say to the therapist what is happening. You know. They don't need to. It can process it without describing and retraumatising you and the therapist. This was my situation. There was other things I didn't consciously know so I did a visualization of my child self telling an angel. But I didn't hear what it was. The angel was symbolic of someone who could handle it. This provided a lot of relief for me and I felt better. Don't know what made me think of that but the subconscious is visual. Uses pictures. So I did a visual solution. ❤
Just adding. It happened and retelling gives it life again to me. The therapist has to hold it now. It can be done without the details with EMDR and my visualization really worked.
What an amazing, authentic and inspirational person ❤
Wow this is a really great interview, thank you. 🙏🏻
to be in a state of constant discovery.. i love that hokeyness :D
This reminds me very much of the work that a spiritual counselor does. Being present is felt especially when people are in a vulnerable place. We all feel when the other person is not authentic and present. This is why, I think, a lot of therapies unfortunately don't work.
He is amazing!!! Talk about someone living their purpose. Dr Jacob is!!!!
This interview was really good, thank you!
I love how all of these medical mysteries have something to do with food! Thank you so much for sharing these with us
Great channel you got here Forrest!
So good! Thank you both.
So much of this resonates with me. The only way to handle pain is to be with it and feel it and go through it. Avoidance of that process creates another problem, a new one.
Rituals - the thing that comes to my mind is BDSM. Scenes can serve as a ritual. As a sub, to be there in pain with a witness and participant who can also love you and hold space for that pain - it works.
When he said being present ... what is happening in the moment, how you enter a room rather that assuming... when activated and vulnerable... I started crying and I don't know why😢
❤loneliness is the opposite of healing
Especially if you are wired for nurturing😢
Wow! Thank you!!
❤❤THANK U FOR THIS❤❤. HEALTH TRAUMA BEGINS WITH STOPPING LABELING, DIGNOSING,..thank you for teaching and explaining the IMPORTANCE OF FEELING SUCH SAFETY TO allow ones release of trapped sheer TERROR from traumas
What a beautiful human! Thank you! Love hearing from people who are genuine and vulnerable. ❤
No words. Thank you. Insightful.
Thank you both ❤
Soooooooo beautiful ❤! I really enjoyed this conversation so much. Dr. Ham is a magician here, he really is able to meet one here and now. Just watching him talking takes me "home"... And Forrest is doing a real great job, providing space to make it happen ❤Thank you so much and please have more conversations. I especially am interested in how to deal with fawn reaction.... 🙏
wish I didn't have a meeting right now so I could watch this right away. Can't wait to see this one.
Thank you Forrest!
Luv this red hot and unexpected conversation about the power of caring presence in therapy!!👊❤👊❤
Thanks!
OMG! Dr. Jacob is an amazing human!
Wow this was absolutely brilliant. Great dynamic and flow between you both, as it came from the heart and I'm sure anyone who listened connected in a deep way. I've been stuck in a process of trying to self heal from trauma but without any support. This is so valuable and thank you
min 20 - YES!!!!!! Thank you!!
You are an artist!
His process reminds me of The Completion Process by Teal Swan. It's all about stopping the running away from the pain and facing and going through the storm to get to the other side where there's finally accepting and peace.
Thoroughly enjoyed this, thanks for sharing your conversation! I've gained a lot from it I feel, really inspiring and grounding as well ❤
Amazing!