Dune Talk: The Butlerian Jihad & The Dangers of Artificial Intelligence
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Discussing the Butlerian Jihad and some of my own thoughts about where AI is heading in our own Society.
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Thanks for listening everyone. Tell me what your thoughts are and let me know if you would like more less structured Dune videos like this along with my others. ☺
IdeasOfIceAndFire Dune is my favorite SF series, could you make a video on your thoughts about the scattering?
Background music credits please!
Check the end of video
Long Live The Fighters of Muad'dib!
Fun video! If it doesn't affect your production of your other vids you should totally keep doing these!
“Machines are evil and will destroy humanity”
“Let’s snort this mysterious worm poop that turns our eyes blue will kill us if we stop taking it”
Lets not forget that said worm poop only exists on one planet so whoever controls it can pretty much can bend the entire galaxy to their will by threatening to destroy it.
Decayed worm corpses*
We can't rely on computers, let's rely on Mentats
Yes
I’m a sucker for good drugs and donuts.
This is one of the more interesting pieces of Dune lore. The Butlerian Jihad is such a compelling idea.
Yeah, it's strong enough trauma to make the shape of the society in Dune plausible, that's why it's great. i personally hope to be a Cymek one day :)
[skynet downvotes your comment]
Ixians downvoted.
What’s funny is where all using thinking machines right now.
Mr Sunshine, the book is epic
How did a man 50 years ago have this vision about the world today and even build a new world on the ruins of the one we're stupidly building now.
Almost 60 years in fact.
Well those themes were discussed in the academic and military nearly 70 years ago, that's why
Your video is so relevant for us in the real world right now with the progress in AI
And I totally agree! Herbert's portrayal of the Butlerian Jihad (though he gave little information on it) made it seem like it was a galaxy-spanning Luddite rebellion. The movement hated AI because of how it was being used, not because the "thinking machines" were these brutal overlords. And it also fudged the concept, since all the machines amounted to were copies of Omnius, one other thinking machine (Erasmus), and billions of drones.
"Our technology can be our downfall" said anyone who's ever sat through a meal while their companions spent the entire meal staring at their phones... :(
@@psiclone4142 Nope.. but then again, I'm also not using a phone! ;P
Yes people have lost the ability of meaningful conversation
My interpretation of the Butlerian Jihad in the expanded universe is that the machines weren't evil. even Erasmus wasn't truly evil in the way that the Titans were animalistic cruel horrible
Erasmus cruelty had an antiseptic quality, not exactly evil just inhuman
anyways that was my take on it
Exactly, he considered humans in general to be parts. If he could have had more empathy, considering he was the only real Erasmus, because of how long he had been disconnected from Omnius, he might have realised that since humans are not a collective (most of the time lol) each one is like him, the only model. I guess that is why he was so clinical for most of the time in regard to humans.
Brian Herbert's novels are lowest common denominator trash
I actually read the Butlerian Jihad before the original dune books and I really hoped Erasmus would still be around after the Jihad
malevolence not by design but by complete unconcern
so call VIVISSECTION of humans like nazi did ....something of QUALITy? u must be insane
People in 2008: I don't want some NSA spy device in my home!
People now: Alexa?
I have a drunkard cousin who bosses his Alexa around constantly whenever I stop by. I think the powers that be are wasting their efforts.
Drives me nuts
Well said.
Just wait till neuralink comes out...
Corporations are the cat’s paw of government now - a way around the Bill of Rights. This is what fascism is - merging of government and corporations. And they’re not even domestic corporations; they’re multinationals with globalist ambitions and loyalties.
No more internet? Fine. Let's pull out our dune novels...
skeletorrobo love your response.
Don't forget the big stash of acid so we can replicate the capabilities of our old technologies with human abilities.
I'll get out my hand cranked ebook reader - (I don't do low technology well but I can hack high tech)
Or better yet, lets get drunk on sneaky pete wine. We can smoke
and eat apple pie. Then we can put on costumes and 'live' Dune in
real time. Thinking and sex have one thing in common, in the end
you're going to pay a price. :)
skeletorrobo okay, but you only have the Brian Herbert’s ones.
Do a sanity check please.
Frank Herbert’s original Butlerian jihad is better than Brian’s Butlarian Jihad because it was unique
I worked on the Amazon Alexa project, trust me they definitely do record what you're saying, I spent months listening to utterances from hundreds of different homes, a lot of them are things that people directly say or ask Alexa, but a lot of it is also private conversions that Alexa thinks is being directed at it, or random noises that activate it. Tech like that, including the Google one, do exactly the same. If you have one of those devices in your home, then what you say to it is being recorded and more.
This vision of laziness is the exact reason why, even though we have software to simulate things, I still have to be able to do it by hand to get my degree.
Reliance on computers, bad - reliance on drugs, totally cool. I agree they just went from one extreme to the other instead of creating a balance. I also wanted to learn more about how the spice withdrawls kill you if you don't have enough, is that discussed during the famine years? Great video as always!
Dial up is the mind killer..........
Us: "What is in the box?"
*box makes dial up noises*
Comcast: "Pain"
tatito rodriguez - I shall bend like a fibre optic cable in the wind.
I just died!
When I hear lore like this how we got "too lazy" it sounds like people longing for "the good old days". From the outcome it seems it went from people controlling other people with machines to just plain people controlling other people with religion.
And drugs, lots of performance enhancing drugs, that dependence on could spark intergalactic wars.
To be fair, Jessica warned Paul about controlling people with religion; ironic coming from a Bene Gesserit...
Except the “religion” is actually real and the messiah has godlike powers he uses to control humanity. Pretty far off there
religion doesn't "control " people Mr. fatherless child , it leads people. Islam is objectively true
@@ahmadfrhan5265 *You are exactly the sort of fanatic that turns people off. Religion does indeed control people. It controls you. All religions are an idiotic waste of time and intellect.*
Dune as it pertains to artificial intelligence and technology is infinitely more relevant now than ever. Innovation and technology aren't inherently bad. What's good or bad is who is creating them and what function or purpose it serves. If we can use our technology to aid humans and to enhance a pro-human future, them that isn't bad. The problem is that so much of our advanced twchnology is being made by bad and negligent people and used to work against the interests of the species, to replace us and to manipulate and control us. That's the great dilemma with things like artificial intelligence. If we can steer its development towards serving an addative purpose that enhances our quality of life, pursues human interest, and empowers us as opposed to replace and control us, then we have a potentially very bright future ahead. If we can't do that, then i suppose all i have left to say on the matter is where do I sign up for the IRL Butlerian Jihad?
I live in a college town and I see every college student have Chat gpt open to the side of their laptop . AI habits are solidified in the next generation .
In the novel The Butlerian Jihad, the Titans had altered the thinking machines when they still had human bodies to wrest control of the human-controlled planets from their leader who had become long complacent.
Of course if you are a Dune purist you can disregard the Brian Herbert novels.
oldeskul of course you could but then you'd be wrong to do so just cause they, of course, dont live up to the original series in quality... disregarding works done by the son and heir to the series who uses own fathers notes is like saying anything Christopher Tolkien puts out is not canon in the middle-earth lore. It's the owner of the idea/franchise that dictates what is canon and not some fans calling themselves 'purists' like it actually means something. It doesnt.
I am a new dune fan, just read the first three, moved onto the Brian Herbert trilogy next and I absolutely loved it!
@@Akaeus you actually believe that Frank had notes for 20 books ? They are just milking the brand, that's it
In Dune they just replaced thinking machines with spice. People who desire power will always find a way to get it.
Recently my university invited the chef of the innovations department of siemens and he also said he was very afraid of AI.
So, even in the tech field people are very aware of the risks.
Man I gotta say I love your breakdown of the dune series. Im a chef and with that I have control over the radio. I've had 4 cooks by dune from listening to your channel. Thanks keep up the great work.
Darth Mugin that’s not much better than the poor schmucks in my kitchen having to listen to my NPR
What about the mentats? "It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of saffu that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion."
Consider this..machines are already beginning to breed us. More and more people meet up through computer algorithms. This means the traits that favour humans meeting via computer are being replicated. It also means that the algorithms that are most efficient at matching humans are being perfected.
temmy9
Machine natural selection. Neat
Hardly. The software still uses human intervention. People game the system to make money or gather information on the patrons to make money off of that or sell the database as a whole. It's a crazy market, full of databases and law enforcement trying to stifle the flow of information. It's not going to be a war of AI, it'll be a war of the information brokers.
@@Nighthawke70 Also, there's no necessary natural selection for the most apt algorithm.
What if a bear lost its claws or teeth? It's not about thinking machines, but about machines in general. Human beings dont have claws or fur or big teeth. We have minds that are able to think of clever ways to survive. If you take the machines away it would be bad just like if you take away any animal's means of survival. That doesn't mean machines are bad though, even thinking ones. That's the irony of Dune. Thinking machines were replaced by other crutches.
well the thing is that you cant reproduce with a goddamn bot that only wants your credit card number.
Evidently, (from my understanding) the Brian Herbert books were based on notes Frank Herbert wrote on an old computer with 5 inch disks, if you can remember that far back.
Augustus87 Heron my brother thinks that Frank also told them as bedtime stories.
Yeah, there are a number of descendants of famous writers continuing their ancestors' works by claiming that something was left behind from which they work - it's to give their own work legitimacy, Just look at Dacre Stoker's Dracula novels....I was willing to cut him some slack with the first one, Dracula the undead, which had come clever ideas, but now he's written a new one, and part of its content cancels out the first one. Personally, I am only inclined to believe in the existence of such material if it is also made available to the public - researchers and, for that matter, anyone who's interested - to be studied in its entirety, like by being donated to a university manuscript collection or something. As far as I know, neither Brian Herbert nor Dacre Stoker have done that. Herbert is stilol another matter because Farnk Hebert very likely mnade the notes in preparation of a work that he was then unable to complete or even begin. Yet it would be interesting to see in how far Brian Herbert's work honors those notes.
I can.
It would be interesting to put franks books and notes into an ai and have it write the continuation 😂
I remember they where excelent frisbee's :)
Never understood the appeal of "the internet of things" direction with devices in your fridge,heating,doors etc..
I mean I can understand why companies would want us to use such stuff, more information and control is more power and profits for them, but it makes my mind boggle that folks will happily set up audio and video recorders all over their houses!
The implications if any of these devices are either abused by their makers or get hacked are extremely disturbing, and these things WILL happen, it's absolutely inevitable.
Great content as ever!
paul elephant brotha that is so sobering and scary.
this is 100 percent correct statement.. when I saw the Samsung fridge I'm like why, why would anyone get that
Love how George Orwell predicted these things as devices of authoritarianism and amused at how people today embrace them willingly and eagerly.
paul elephant
Murphy's law applies here. The system is going to fall apart one day like it did in EM Forster's story
The Machine Stops.
Its simply a way to charge more money for an inferior product with features that make it sound better than it really is -aka "Bells and Whistles". My grandparents have a 1950s electric stove. It has worked perfectly for over 50 years with no repairs. Now you're likely to replace a stove every 13-15 years. And that's usually due to the electronic brain giving out, a capacitive switch or a damn "safety sensor" error-ing out. Quality of life enhancements are a scam.
Hell, you can't buy a new car for less than $14,000 today. And eventually they're going to all be connected to the internet. That is a way for manufacturers to, once again charge more money, and governments like California will make it mandatory in order to tax drivers more directly. It's technocratic socialism. Why else are the biggest proponents of AI also for a universal wage and openly support AI taking minimum wage jobs from people?
More Dune please! Issac Asimov too!
talk about asimov's "The Last Question"
Culture.
I second that!
There is nothing worse than stagnation. When we stop striving towards a goal we destroy ourselves.
I see us in the precipice of a nano great scattering. We are so close to space travel being a thing.
When that happens we will scatter to the wind. Or at least I am most my friends would.
the question is if higher, faster, further is the goal or if it should be or if there is something else we should aim at.
Consider:
Our species is only a fraction of a fraction as old as dinosaurs. For 66 million years, they roamed this same planet without changing a great deal. We know of only the tiniest amount of their numbers and various species because that is all that has survived into our time. The dinosaurs stagnated. They didn't need to evolve very much and so they didn't. Now, consider us: on the edge of the knife, an infant race, with the power to utterly remake our environment or destroy it many times over, short-sighted, territorial, hierarchical yet too intelligent to not be individuals. A brilliant flame trying to put itself out. And, then? Maybe our records survive, maybe out monuments, maybe our space junk lasts for a few centuries. Maybe. But, certainly, all that we have build will crumble to dust. What's worse that stagnation? Extinction and no one and nothing ever knowing we were ever even here.
@@Giganfan2k1 not hardly. We can barely fabricate a microsphere of self-sustaining life support. We are getting there, but we need a good reason to get out there. A damned good one.
@@Nighthawke70 personally, I think we are looking at a massive ecological collapse.
The Midwest aquifer is pretty darn depleted. Multiple states are starting to have hard talks about fresh water supply.
Worse the deadzones, and algae blooms are getting more frequent.
Depending in which models you are into the warming of deep sea currents will probably stop. If that happens large scale glaciation will probably happen.
We have no idea how much hydrogen sulfate is sitting in the equatorial sea floor, nor do we know how warm it has to be for the next massive release.
Any one of these things could tilt the price of food too high. The planet's surface might be difficult to live on. It will probably be doable for the most advanced nations but what about the third world?
The West is already having problems with the migrant influx from the Middle East. What happens when that is a fraction of people trying to seek asylum?
We are on a razors edge in many ways. The planet will be fine. Civilization will probably continue in some form. However, life will probably be incredibly hard for a while and there will be a lot of dead.
The best way to marginalize this pain is space. But that is my two cents.
More Dune dude!!! Please do all the books, even the ones by Brian, I know its kinda painful, but you cant blame the son trying to continue his fathers legacy.
This request aged very well
@@robertnewell4054 why?
@@migueaguilera1779 He did a video about Brain Herbert's books.
I feel like this video is more relevant now more than ever. We’re going towards Idiocracy. Which is why I love dune and how they went backwards and got rid of AI and most tech. We’re heading towards wall e style of living. It’s crazy how Herbert thought of this and how it effects our humanity and if tech takes over for us completely, what are we? Slaves to the machine.
Tbf, the new crutch in dune is super drugs that can mutate people, subtle or not.
Make no mistake, if we do succeed in creating true artificial sentience, we are all dead. I'm just some guy so don't take my word for it, listen to all the experts who are saying the same thing. Machines such as these could outthink us, outproduce us, and ultimately either wipe us out or enslave us. sci-fi has a way of coming true and we have been warned many times but still we push ahead with this nonsense that AI can be "done right" and controlled. It can't, if that were possible it wouldn't be AI. So yeah, I agree these stories are more relevant and urgent than ever
and I can _listen_ for hours!
More please, Quin.
Vincent D'Onofrio played kingpin so well in Daredevil he should play as Vlad Harkonen
Oddish hahahaha! That would be awesome.
This is fantastic.
Stellan Skarsgard has been cast as Harkonnen in the upcoming film
@@patgogan7324 And he did a great job!
I am so glad your channel exists
Your voice is so beautiful! Your content and the work you put into your videos is amazing! I first heard your GoT videos. I started reading Dune because of your videos. You've made it so interesting and I love how you break down the books.
Many thanks for the quality videos and narratives. You should definitely do a voice over for a book reading. Your voice is very soothing and also expressive.
Time to break out the slide rule. Not as convenient, but more than functional.
As for auto-correct, it is a crutch and a bane. Try to type a word and auto-correct keeps changing it to what it 'thinks' you want, not what you want.
Echo Whiskey Worse of your autocorrect is in another language and it just keeps throwing in non-english words or changing the words to some other english ones (which I have no idea why it's doing that..)
Computers usually do exactly what you tell them to do, even if you spell it wrong. Oops !
That seems to be the cycle of the Dune universe, mankind becomes lazy and some great figure attempts to correct it only for humanity to create a new crutch. Remember before the thinking machines there were the Titans. They took over with a grand plan to reinvigorate humanity. Then in their laziness the thinking machines took over. Heck it becomes stranger if you think about how it's the same genetic line that's been doing this and failing since the Atreides family comes from Agamemnon, the Titan who originally started this entire cycle of breaking with the old to try and save humanity then it failing.
Sta au Weren't the Titans computer programers before they became cyborgs? They were the men who controlled the thinking machines that controlled the other men.
Joe Blow according to the wiki yes. But I had been just going off what I read from the Butlerian Jihad. It would be interesting to read a series on the rise of the Titans but I don't know if one had been written.
I enjoyed the Bultlerian Jihad and the Machine Crusade. Both books paint a great backstory and also Serena butler was an amazing character. I wish Zufa Cenva was explored a bit more in the books.
Anthony Wilkins is t
Aside from what the Butlerian Jihad was actually about, I think the danger of advanced AI is precisely what you said would make it safe. If we write AI that can learn, better itself towards maximum efficiency, but lacks emotion, what is stopping it from reaching a conclusion that humans are inefficient, and that the best thing to do is erasing us from the equation?
Well I like how in the Megaman series by the time of Zero both humanity and machines(reploids) actually evolve equally as there are humans that are of mentat level intelligence and there are reploids with highly developed emotions its sorta a weird yet strangely believable outcome after artificial intelligence. But it is still not without dangers.
Well put. I highly recommend checking out a book "Amusing Ourselves to Death" (if you haven't already). The author (Neil Postman) makes the point that western scholars and observers were so obsessed with avoiding 1984 that they forgot about Brave New World - the other great dystopian prediction. Whereas Orwell thought it was what we feared that would destroy us and our freedom, Huxley believed that distraction and pleasure would be what takes it from us.
both come from the same tribe
@@himself3011 tribe? as in, they are similar in their overall thinking?
@@matthewwilliams8978 no not at all
@@himself3011 Then what are you saying? Who are you talking about? And what "tribe"?
@@matthewwilliams8978 The One and Only 'Chosen Ones'.
you should redo this topic based off the AI boom over the last few months and talk about the tech singularly.
13:55 you're not having paranoia you're thinking of the balance between individual liberties and a societal security
Alex gallardo I second that notion!
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Thanks for mentioning Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's "contribution" to Dune, specifically the Butlerian Jihad. I listened to the audiobooks of Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune and thought they were cool but I was somewhat crest-fallen by how they explained the old couple Duncan Idaho sees at the end of Chapterhouse Dune as the avatars of the thinking machines Erasmus and Omnius. I always assumed that the old couple were a pair of highly evolved Face Dancers returned from the Scattering which I always thought would've been a better concept than a pair of thinking machines. Also Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's Terminator / man versus AI portrayal of the Butlerian Jihad is pretty cliched. Sometimes I wish they would've left the Dune Chronicles well enough alone. Great video. Keep up the good work.
No Quinn, we are definately getting dumber, and more ignorant. There is an entire generation of people who don't know how their government or economic system works.
It's been 6 years since Quinn posted this.
It is still the best, and possibly only, youtube about the BJ.
More please oh, I read Dune 45 years ago and I was so happy when I saw on the back of the book it there was two more. I also like Ringworld and all those I love puppeteers.
I'd be interested in hearing some talks on The Expanse books if you've read them, although I'll also gladly continue to listen to anything on Dune as well.
I've loved all of your Dune videos so far but this was one was particularly thought-provoking. On a more general level, I think the notion of the Butlerian Jihad sets the Dune novels apart from other sci-fi from the outset. They can't rely on convenient technological concepts such as AI and so move in a completely different direction as a result (in my modest opinion). The subjects you touch upon also illustrate how and why Dune is still so relevant today.
Some Medieval monks developed the ability to do complicated mathematical formulas on their two hands. This was how they were to build complicated instruments and buildings like the astrolabe and gothic cathedrals respectively.
Love this video. So much to consider regarding the Butlerian Jihad. Have you also explored the *Hyperion Cantos* series of books by Dan Simmons?
synchro505 besides Dune the Hyperion Cantos is my favorite sci-fi series of all time. It's always the damn computers/machines! Every once in awhile it's Bugs, but mostly the machines!!
Hyperion Cantos is a masterpiece.
The maesters could be seen as a butlerian jihad against magic
It's interesting to ponder on, the asoiaf series does detail in very subtle ways that the Maesters have ideas and group think separate from the houses and themselves. Institutional thought and goals can sometimes go against the individual goals of peoples.And your right - GRR Martin takes a lot of influences from Frank Herbert and you can definitely feel this connection when reading the Maesters.
Adeel Hussain I think the andals follow the legacy of the ghiscari but don't like magic because they think it corrupted the ghiscari I talked about it on an stream I had
Adeel Hussain it's more towards the ending and middle ua-cam.com/video/Y1OkhF32PhU/v-deo.html
Yes, love these. Please give us detailed plot outlines on the later books. By the time I got to book VI I was really confused, so it would be good to see that laid out for those like me who didn't get all of the plot twists. Great stuff BTW. Dune certainly is fertile ground for discussion of the future of the human race like no other SciFi.
Thanks for keeping this up, another topic I am really glad you are doing a video on!
I wouldn't have gotten into dune if it weren't for you, so big thanks. I've been meaning to get into it for the longest time, but this made it much more digestable.
Have you ever thought about covering The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan? My wife introduced me to these books and they are EPIC!
I read the first book when I was in the army when it first came out. I credit that book and series as the spark that lit my fantasy/scifi reading addiction. Read all of the Dune series right after that.
Brett Me WoT is the literary version of Ambien. It's slow and puts you to sleep.
The first books are very good but the later books slowly devolves into garbage
And they get better as you go along.
I read the belgarion/molorea tales before I started WOT...
Wheel of time is such an amazing series, I think people don't give it a chance because of the first two books :( that's just my 2cents
May the uploading of new content cleanse the world. Thank you.
Siphesihle Dlokolo dial up is the mind killer........
More Dune talk please! Also, thrilled that you are now covering the Foundation series. A close second for me and my all time sci-fi favs.
I think the Butlerian Jihad series was more concerned with the events immediately proceeding and during the Jihad.
It's been years since I've read them, but I think that he authors attempted to demonstrate the humans oppressing humans with technology through the Cymeks.
They were humans disgusted by their civilization's reliance on AI and decided to coopt that AI to demonstrate the folly of that reliance.
Eventually their own power and success corrupted them, and as they got lazier and more hedonistic, they delegated more and more authority to their AI. Eventually they lost so much control that the thinking machines were effectively the dominant species, with the (now) Cymeks becoming more subservient.
this was great as always my favorite character in Dune has always been Duncan Idaho that poor bastard has been through so much it be kind of fun to do an epic tale of all of his reincarnations
Very nice insights, thanks!
Totally appreciate your videos, I share your love for both Dune and the Foundation, though I admit it has been a few years since I visited the universe of Harry Seldon. My boys and I play D&D, been running the game for almost 40 years, and recently we rebooted the world to correct all the cumulative errors it accumulated over those years. Many of the names and ideas for our New World have been inspired and outright borrowed from Franks wondrous creation including the Guild, the Houses and even a version of the Fremen. Anyway...from one Dune fan to another, you have my deepest thanks for the videos you produce. I share them on my Facebook and I hope that gains you some new subs, it's literally the least I can do...peace be with :)
Revisit these ideas again! I can't believe this was 5 years ago..
I like your dune lore and discussion videos very much! thanks for it, I also really like Brian Herbert's series, I think it describes very probabilistic events which lead to "current" empire, even if OC bible speaks about mans with machines, who enslaved other man and Brian Herbert's series describe slightly different details, most of humanity who fought against machines (in R.H series) where fighting terrifying cymeks - human brains implanted in gigantic battle machines, first handful of powerful and brutal generals, then "second generation" cymeks, less powerful but enormous numbers, yes, key characters knew that all cymeks ultimately where under Omnius control, but rest of the humanity was not aware, or did not cared, because point of their hatred was cymeks, even sisterhood treated them as main thread. Also, in F.H . original series, main emphases was not on technology, rather on humanity, government, religion and ecology. Whole novel started as short story which was inspired by real life dunes and how to manage them, also pollution of ocean and environment by humans, then short story turned into one of the best sci-fi and philosophical novels of all time, but in original series sify was backdrop, The Butlerian Jihad was mentioned to explain why technology was at so seemingly low level. A.I, computers and their impact that time when original novels published was very novel things, and sify novelists imagination was very different than later (compare old and recent syfy movies), So Brian Herbert interpreted his series with more modern view and in my opinion fitted perfectly with existing novels, OC bible was written after The Butlerian Jihad, to the end of which religious fanatics went berserk and eradicated all advanced technology and almost returned to stone age (if not sisterhood, the guild and mentats I believe they would) . Creation of mentat schools is also perfectly well explained in B.H series as well as why there is no laser weapons, which at that time was staple of all syfy novels.
More DUNE talk please!
Anyone criticizing the usage of “geriatric” clearly hasn’t read the book. “Geriatric” is used several times to describe the spice. This is because the spice makes humans age slower and prolongs their lives.
I think I have gone through most of your videos over the last week since really getting into the idea of the dune universe. Have to say your passion for the saga pushed me to purchase the 6 books in the series haha. This is exactly the sort of story and universe for me! Thanks for all your hard work!
Where does all the artwork for these Dune videos come.from? Some links please?
Thank you, this was a wonderful analysis. Brian Herbert and KJA's version of "the struggle" lost all the subtlety and depth that Frank Herbert was known for. Whereas Herbert hinted at a galaxy-spanning Luddite rebellion that sought to uncomplicate people's lives and resulted in a regression of sorts, those guys gave us a collection of very poorly written sci-fi cliches.
It has always fascinated and delighted me the topics scifi stories bring up. Our relationship with the budding AI is just one of those topics. Thanks again for the good video.
Awesome and very interesting video !
Interesting commentary, man. I enjoyed listening to your thoughts. Had to laugh though, I must be the only person I know that liked Brian Herbert's interpretation of the Dune universe :,P Not too sure about Netflix season's of Black Mirror being superior though, I thought the original stuff was more insidious and subtlety scary. Which is by no means saying I don't also like the newer stuff.
The Cymeks are "technically" other men with machines.
The King in Green and Omnius being their boss is technically the cymeks not being the ones controlling the machines.
LOL, the subtitles quoted you as "butt larry and jihad"
What you're talking about around 13:00, the ultra technocracy, was foreseen as the future in a short story "Service Call" by Philip K Dick. Several plain businessmen in the 60s or so while having a house party are visited by a repairman of some piece of tech they've never heard of, a "swibble." They come to realize that this guy must've traveled back in time somehow, accidentally and without knowing he did. The piece of tech he repairs is the one single item that everyone has installed in them and that enslaves everyone.
please keep uploading dune
I always considered the Butlerian Jihad as an authorial ploy that enabled Herbert to stay in territory he felt comfortable in - medieval power politics. To me it was dodging the dramatically interesting and intellectually challenging question of a future of humans grappling with intelligent or conscious machines to focus instead on the much more conventional subject matter of humans dealing with other humans. But today as things begin to heat up in AI research and development, with ChatGPT shaking the world by crossing a long-thought-to-be impassable line into human-like conversational ability, Herbert's idea of a revolution against machines gains a new resonance and relevance. It is generally thought he was basing the concept on Samuel Butler's Erewhon, but I wonder whether he ever spoke or wrote about Erewhon in his interviews or non-fiction writings.
I have read a lot of print SF, but I do not recall any other notable SF authors or books in the 60's that were directly taking on this theme or that were influenced by Erewhon. So what did Herbert think of his peers' use of AI tropes in their writing when he clearly was far more skeptical of AI than they were?
A search of sf-encyclopedia did not yield much that I would consider a machine-dominated future where humanity as the protagonist of history is replaced by artificial intelligence. In fact, cinema may have done better in this regard by imagining machine civilizations in the Terminator and Matrix franchises. Of course even they focus on the human actors and only offer brief glimpses of the society of machines. It's the gorgon we do not dare to look at directly as well as the abyss that evolution is rushing us towards since the day we picked up a stone on the savannah to use as a tool.
Very well written
More Dune Talk!!! I realize it’s been awhile since this was released, but you could make more Dune videos using a similar format into a regular podcast. Great stuff!!
I stumbled upon your channel by accident. You my friend need a podcast. The themes you breakdown are incredible.
I think I like the free form videos better.
More please
I really enjoy listening to ALL of your Dune vids. They are well done and informative. Thank you
I started watching this because I love Dune....not expecting the deep thoughts about technology and our own current use/dangers of it. I feel it...I agree with your sentiments.
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind" Orange Catholic Bible.
"What do you think I am? Human." The Architect
I will watch your Dune videos all damn day. Keep them coming. I love hearing people's thoughts on the lore
Agree on the Brian Herberts Butlerian Jihad. I tried reading it, but a few chapters in I couldn't stop thinking that this is not at all what the Butlerian Jihad was about.
Revisit this topic please
They overthrew those who used thinking machines to control them, only to turn each other into similarly flawed thinking machines with twice the hubris as those who came before
Discovering your videos lately, being a huge DUNE fan its like candy, you Sir! are the authority on DUNE. I cant wait for the new movie and, your take on it.
Absolutely brilliant work man. I feel better about the future knowing ppl like you are still out there. Got into your vids about DUNE recently, and I'm blown away. I read DUNE as a kid, and I think I was a bit too young to really have it click with me. I remember liking it and thinking it was really complex and interesting, but at that age I wasn't able to really process all of it. And I think I felt it was very dark and dry and political. As I've aged though I've found myself interested in rereading it. Sadly/thankfully I've forgotten a LOT of the story so it should be like the first time all over again. All I can say is, these books are some of the most important pieces of modern literature ever published. Watching your vids on Dune has been an eye-opening experience to how truly genius it is. That's why young me didn't get it; I stared genius in the face but was too young to comprehend it. Thanks for rekindling my passion for these stories!
Your insights and breakdowns of the stories' key concepts are on point and compelling af. I definitely agree that AI could be fine as we don't have do make it share our less desirable qualities. Desire, for instance 👍 At least for an AI, this would not be a useful quality. The main issue is making an AI that's a counterfeit human, as you said. And also allowing tech to encroach further and further into everyday life. I'll never understand how ppl feel comfortable having the lock to their front door be remotely accessible by a 3rd party. Insanity. Then again my smartphone isn't a whole lot better.
Important to clarify the difference between AI and AGI ... we have AI now - primitive I suppose compared to what we imagine. AGI however means Artificial GENERAL Intelligence. AGI is able to think on a more conscious level. We do not yet know what AGI will look like really - there is a lot of speculation out there. I personally find AI much more scary than AGI, for the reasons given in this video. AI must be directed by humans (at least until AGI exists) and many humans who seek power are sociopathic and quite willing to use genocidal force. Nuclear weapons have honestly spared us this so far as even though they are incredibly deadly, they leave behind a lot of pollution that would affect those who use them too ... but AI drones that recognize faces or 'races' even, can spray a little nerve agent - just a drop ... and then move on to another target. The nerve agent is gone in a few days and so are the people. Masses of drones are already being planned by the USA's DARPA. Truly we live in frightening times and not at all unlike the fictional Butlerian jihad.
Tyler Jordan real talk just so scary.
AI robotics are just a physical instantiation of machine intelligence and limited by physical speed limits. The worse threats are in purely solid-state intelligence that can ruin a person in the blink of an eye. You could ruin a person with a physical bullet through a physical skull or manipulate electronic bank records, spread malicious tweets, fabricate a Most-Wanted story, hack the braking/accelerator in a car.
In recent history it was found that foreigners arranged a skinhead rally and an SJW counter-protest and intimated to both sides that arming up would be a good idea. No fancy robots, facial recognition or nerve agents. Just some fairly sophisticated cultural awareness.
"Runaway" 1984, just a bad Sci-Fi movie...
its a bit like GPS navigation, once we used to use maps and use our minds to remember how to get around a city driving, but machines have made us lazy.
ChatGPT brings something new to the future that is proposed from Dune and what is talked about with the Jihad. AI and specifically AGI brings a certain clarity in this historical event.
The quality of your videos have improved so much
Yay!! More Dune!!!
Computer use to be a job title by the way.
My issue with Brian Herbert's books is it also misses the idea that the Butlerian Jihad was Theists vs Atheists, the rise of Feudalism and anti-thinking machines forced humanity to theism. So yes, Frank Herbert's books were always about Man vs Man, and Man vs God, where Brian Herbert is about Man vs Machine.
I could listen to you talk for hours about this one subject.
It gave rise to the mentats.
the mentats were created by an AI named Erasmus.
I didn't say they weren't. But the Mentats came out of the Butlerian Jihad. According to Cannon , those books written by Frank Herbert, the AI were not creators of Mentats. The named AI were from the other books so that is non-cannonical.
+Pup314
yes, after the butlerian jihad, the robot erasmus taught his adopted son to become a mentat and they started the mentat school.
aaccording to the books written by Frank herbert's son. So not Cannon to the original series.
saying the prequels are not canon is the same as saying deep space 9 is not star trek.
No thinking machines, a bit of an arbitrary line. First is how to define thinking. The top end is easy: planning, problem solving. What's the bottom end? Does a single "if...then" constitute thinking? Do pullies, inclined planes and levers "think" about redistributing force over a greater distance?
Why impose such a limitation? Yes, when we go overboard with AI-Facebook we reduce ourselves to manipulated puppets with strings of outrage and confirmation bias. But imagine a construction crew that vows to not use sinfull hammers and will only use virtuous dirt and water construction material. Steel, concrete, wood, glass... all are works of the devil.
Technology crutch: yes, all technology is a crutch. Writing is a crutch to compensate for a sorely limited memory. A phonebook "remembers" everyone's phone number for me. My copy of War & Peace "remembers" that story for me. I use a shopping list to off-load my grocery requirements. I use a keyboard because my penmanship is terrible. We often use wheeled vehicles because we're too wussy to walk 50 miles to work and back.
Technology could also be extended to thinking tools. Language is a tremendous tool for organizing thought. Math is an awesome tool for taking apart problems. Those who have studied philosophy have superior argumentation.
Or economic tools like currency. Cooperation tools like laws and time keeping.
Lenard Segnitz it is more along the lines of C3PO, Data, the starship computers of Star Trek, and so on.
Casper Jones
And weirding modules?
You are right that all technology is by its nature an extension of human capacity Lenard Segnitz - a car lets you travel far further and faster than you could on foot, bad weather clothing augments your resistance to adverse environmental conditions, books allow the knowledge of humanity to be stored in a form of external memory device and so on - and so the logic of a Butlerian Jihad style mindset runs into the huge issue that limiting that mindset to thinking machines is incomplete. When it comes to a society where the elite control production capacity, wealth, and the means to employ large scale violence, computers are unnecessary. Just look at aspects of Victorian society - the wealthy entrepreneurs and mill owners held vast quantities of power while the working class couldn't even vote due to land qualification rules. The sun famously never set on the British Empire, that ruthlessly exploited and subjugated hundreds of millions of people world wide without a single microchip in sight, and with the Babbage Engine remaining no more than an idle curiosity. You can do an incredible amount of damage (ecological, social, human) with steam power, bolt action rifles and maxim guns. If you want an even more Dune appropriate example, just look at feudal societies - great family politics is hardly any guarantor of freedom for those people not born with any touch of blue to their blood. Feudalism is also a sadly stable form of oppressive society that historically existed for many centuries in Europe and has, in one form or another, endured for thousands of years across the totality of human expressions of civilisation
In the final analysis, human social and technological forces will always change more quickly than our neural physiology will be able to evolve. In terms of the physical structure of our brain tissue, we are little different than our cave dwelling ancestors. Computers can help magnify the issues with the human condition, but they don't create them.
The Luddite mindset can be seductive whenever you hear of the latest tech scare or silicon valley scandal, but such impulses are always very light on practicality. Like it or loathe it, we live in a networked, technological world, and there is no easy way to go back. Without computers and their utility for global scale organisation and logistics, how would we ever manage to maintain global markets, food supplies, access to potable water and other essentials for a global human population of seven, now nearing eight, billion people, even to the already far from ideal standard we can more or less manage at the moment? If computers were to be rejected, the resulting disruption of politics, economics, logistics, and the production of food and other essentials would kill literally millions of people. Who decides who should die in the name of the new brave (and scary computer free) world? Most likely the already poor and marginalised would get it worst of all. Does anyone really think chaos on that kind of scale would transpire peacefully? How many more would die in the ensuing revolutions and other forms of governmental collapse, civil conflict, and global resource wars?
We know from various sources that trillions of humans died in the Butlerian Jihad, and while Frank Herbert to my knowledge never expressly says so, I imagine that the bulk of those victims didn't die in the fighting itself, but rather in the aftermath of a society shorn of the ability to organise the provision of essentials to its population and riven with other internecine conflicts as the existing systems of government and civil order broke down. In the time it took to establish things like Mentat schools the situation would grow dire indeed on countless worlds. All in all, that sounds like a scenario humanity should probably seek to avoid.
Gregory Greenwood-Nimmo
Well argued. I don't think Frank Herbert approved the Jihad particularly. It is simply that the highly specialised organisations we see in Dune ( Bene Gesserit, mentarts, Guild etc) would most likely not have developed without it.
Agreed Alan Pennie - I never got the impression that Frank Herbert was ever actually arguing in favour of the Butlerian Jihad as necessarily a moral or practical good for humanity even within the fiction he was writing, still less as a blue print for how our species should behave outside the bounds of fiction. As you say, it was one part plot device, one part meditation on what might happen if the development and specialisation of human cognitive faculties was forced upon humanity by the absence of any alternative. Unfortunately, some Dune fans don't see it that way, and then there are the neo-Luddities who try to use the books to garner a frisson of literary credibility for their belief system.
The name Butlerian is a pretty obvious nod to Victorian science - fiction writer Samuel Butler and his satirical utopia Erewhon. I confess to never having read this cult classic. Has anyone on this thread done so?
Keep up the good work, I just found your channel and love it!