Just letting everyone know that I considered deleting this video because I don't agree with some of the things I said in it about the political structure of the Dune universe. I've decided to leave it up because some people still enjoy the discussion but just know that this video doesn't accurately reflect my current beliefs.
Don’t delete it, please! I don’t agree with a few things but it’s good to get a different perspective even if you disagree with yourself today as well. It shows how you have grown too.
@@TheBonzaiKitten dune has autocratic rule and nationalized economy but thats some cool mental gymnastics you got. isnt it cool that you can voice your wrong opinion?
The Price was too high. I really love that scene in Children of Dune when Paul and Leto meet in the desert and Muad'Dib realices that his son has made the decision and there is no going back. I still get chills when I read that scene.
An aspect of the Golden Path was extreme natural selection- he was intentionally extremely oppressive, but he was also encouraging rebellion- and breeding for it with his program for prescient-invisible traits (who better to rebel against him than someone he can't see)- at the same time hunting those rebels with all his might so that when one finally succeeded in challenging him, it would be in the form of the strongest possible stock, tested to the very limit. For him being overthrown meant that he not only set the stage for the scattering, but also created an environment that could produce opponents that could defeat "God"- he gave humanity boundless powers, and a thirst for adventure and expansion.
Yeah he’s a predator that hunted down everyone that was weak/weaker than him, which in the end produced very powerful humans that could challenge/overthrow/kill him. You can see that in the scene where the Tleilaxu attack the Ixian embassy as they can pull of an unexpected attack like that or with Siona ofc.
I find it interesting that, as far as I know, Herbert never once mentioned Muhammad, and only referred to the Quran obliquely with the term Al Kitab (the book). A writer as skilled as Herbert knows better than to be direct.
@@tph2010 Also there's and interesting indirect question Herbert asks, as I see it: if there's no observable God in control - can One be artificially created or evolve from the known species?.. Will it be The God by philosophical definitions rather than religious dogma?.. And where's the line that differs a true God from a mortal being yet of a greatest known power (over humankind)...
People think I'm crazy when I start talking about Dune, I believe it is one of the most important stories ever written...I don't just mean in modern writing...it's themes are universal and timeless...it will always be a relevant story and I wish more people had read it...all of the books
Douglas Morgan Maybe they are 100% Canon and perhaps I need to reread the books all the way though again... But the Daniel and Marty parts in an early print hardcover of Chapterhouse that is available in my local library gives no hint of them being other than sophisticated (for want of a better word) Facedancers who somehow became independent as far as I can tell
Douglas Morgan Yes!! I read the original series all the way through when i was pretty young, my parents were big on books and sci fi and fantasy. When i read them originally i was blown away. Its hard to explain, but the themes and ideas were almost religious to me. I continued to reread the series, and even the expanded books as i grew up, but i never lost that feeling from the books as i got older. Still, today at almost 30 years old, dune and its themes feel almost sacred. Maybe its because i read the series so young. But yeah man. The original series is like a bible to me. I take the expanded books with a grain of salt, but i feel they fill in alot of details and totally enjoy them. I dont know if they are cannon or not, but still feel that theyre important.
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also: Leto forced people to walk nearly everywhere. Despite technology and suspensors being known for long time prior to Leto II., people had no access to them and transported goods like on ancient earth before the industrial revolution. Thus he slowed them even more down. Leto was the ultimate teacher, branding lessons into humans on the genetic level.
(@13:45) When Leto II died at the end the book mentions that his final moments were being recorded in the no room thought recording device, that's how even his final thoughts were recorded.
The interesting thing about Leto's Golden Path is that he laid a groundwork of oppression for every single ethnic group, every planet, every society in the entire Empire to look back on and start over from. They had, thanks to him, a history that they would always refer to while moving on with their journeys. The Fremen were constantly referring to their Zensunni wandering times and the oppression and statelessness as a way to bring cohesiveness to the tribes and their way of life. Imagine that on a Galactic scale with countless millions of communities and ethnicities having a shared history of misery.
Thank you. I have read Heretics and Chapterhouse twice, and the sequels once so far. In fact Heretics is my favorite. In my view the scattering was such an interesting event to explore with a lot of stories that ought to be heard, as my favorite artist Emilie Autumn would say. Frank Herbert preferred to encourage readers to use our imagination.
While I can understand why Leto II was called the Tyrant, it still stung when I read the last three books in the series where characters (particularly the Bene Gesserit) referred to him by that name. Even though he held the Known Universe under extremely tight control for millenia I think the ultimate objective of the Golden Path was not only to maintain Humanity's viability as a species but to give them the capability to remain free. Take the No Gene and No Technology, for example. An individual like Muaddib or the God Emperor could maintain an iron grip on Humanity in the absence of people with the No Gene or people with access to No Ships / Rooms / Globes. No Genes / Technology create multiple X factors that almost nullify the edge prescience gives someone like a Muaddib or a God Emperor. It's almost as if Leto II was restoring a chaos factor (for lack of a better description) to the system to keep Humanity from becoming stagnant. I couldn't imagine the Bene Gesserit doing something like that. They're all about order and control. Even though there was an element of calculation about Leto II's Golden Path I think there was always an element of risk since after his death he would no longer be able to exercise control over everything. I'm sure some people would argue that there was an element of risk in the Bene Gesserit's breeding program, but it seems like they went to great lengths to reduce any risk (especially after Muaddib and the God Emperor) . In Chapterhouse Dune (perhaps Heretics, too) there were remarks by Odrade (maybe Taraza, too) about "putting down" offspring of the breeding program that displayed unusual abilities. The Bene Gesserit want to control Humanity and its destiny but they're afraid of the wild seed or talents that would keep Humanity viable. While the Bene Gesserit may have survived the Tyrant if it weren't for Leto II's Golden Path all the Bene Gesserit would do is lead Humanity into stagnation. What can I say though? It's obvious that I'm biased toward the God Emperor.
I thought the twins participated in the spice orgy through their memories only. Which makes Leto even more sad because he never really experienced the intimate touch of another person except through memory.
Leto called himself the ultimate predator of humanity and in that he was correct. He was changing his prey, humanity, which is the function of the predator: to weed out the weak and in doing so make the prey species stronger. Great video btw, makes me want to reread the book!
Darrylizer1 « and in doing so make the prey species stronger » ... who taught you biology ? That’s not how evolution work at all ^^ Sure, that can be on effect of predation, but huge swaths of biodiversity through history didn’t get « stronger » as a result, they got smaller, weaker, more furtive, they bred more, etc. What a predator does to a prey species is maintaining positive and negative selection pressures for certain traits.
@@nathanjora7627 No shit. I don't think you know what "stronger" means in this context. Leto was trying to remove prescience as a tool to control humanity.
I always thought he was trying to make humans immune to prescience so that no single tyrant could control them again as he does, I forgot about the great enemy bit. There might be future dictators, but they can be dealt with. A literal God Emperor...not so much
Computer algorithms can predict chaotic seeming systems, and the thinking machines were way more sophisticated than our modern quantum computing entangled sets.
The most tragic part of leto is that through his extended humanity he loved everything more than anyone and wanted it to survive, but for it to survive he had to go beyond it leaving him without an equal and since love can only be a relationship between equals no one could love him especially after ghanima died the most equal person to him That's why Paul didn't want to take the golden path it required him not to be loved And that is why Paul did not take it, and why chani had to die he skipped his destiny and the happiness he had was borrowed
He loved humanity as a father who understood that sometimes you can't spare the rod. Sometimes you have to teach your kids a lesson their bones will remember.
Exactly, it was why he chose a path of compromise with a Jihad. But the compromised path wouldn't have been as effective as the Golden Path. Leto told him and he knew he had failed.
This is incorrect. Love is not a relationship between equals. That's a lie of the modern world. Your parents are not your equals for most of your life, assuming you ever become their equal, and yet they still love you(theoretically). God, the personification and example of true perfect love, loves all of us, but not a single one of us is an equal to God. Love does not require both parties to be equals. That's just something concocted by the modern age to destabilize and devalue love.
@@NovusIgnis Yes love does not require "equals", however that is defined. But it seems as if you're taking this "equals" thing way too literally in the quantitative sense. "Equals" in the modern age means each individual in the (assumed) monogamous relationship has essentially the same level of power to guide, follow, learn, make decisions, express themselves, etc. It's not the notion that everything is by-the-book, to-the-letter, by-the-numbers exactly equal.
@@SurelyYewJest I know what equals in the modern age means. I simply reject their definition. It's the same issue we have with courtesy and respect. People are affronted when you don't respect them even though they've given you no reason to do so. Respect is earned, not deserved. What they're looking for is courtesy, not respect, but they get the words twisted. It's the same with love. Love does not require both sides to be equals. Period.
I have a friend who suffers from panic attacks. I gave her a copy of Dune. Now when she gets one she says the litany against fear and the attack stops.
the first years of his reign with ghanima and everyone he knew mustve been joyful but after id honestly rather kill myself than live through letos sacrifice
From what was explained in the books, one who has the ability to travel through a past life, can only do so up to the point of conception of the next descendant. So Leto could only explore the memories of Paul from birth to his own conception, and he could only explore the memories of Duke Leto until the moment of Paul's conception and so on going back in both male and female lines all the way back to the first humans who were sentient. I am sure there are repeat ancstors from various of their children so giving different depths of their memories from later born children, but would not contain all humans who had ever lived, as many died young or childless. A vast assemblage of people, but not everyone who ever lived.
This was my understanding too, initially, though if I'm not mistaken, when Leto completes his transformation, I believe his powers do evolve further beyond Pauls.
Does that mean that they never gain the insight, growth or more importantly, the new _perspective_ that comes with becoming a parent? When I became a father, I personally found there to be a profound encompassing shift in my perspective. Is it possible for there to have been other children born _before_ the life that is being accessed. Does that make sense?
I mean, there's probably a few million younger siblings in there somewhere, plus, they could reflect on their wealth of memories of parents from the perspectives of their children. It wouldn't be perfect, but I imagine having the totality of prescient knowledge and memories from your entire lineage would afford you something to work with.
Thomas Kelly I'd say it's certain that a lot of those ancestors had other children before they had the child who was the direct ancestor of Leto II. Him and his sister weren't even Paul's first child, the first Leto II was just unfortunate enough to die not long after being born.
It would be great if there was a machine like that, so we would be forced to focus our minds on the most immediate task. Otherwise you can imagine what a disaster.
@@zannaifacedancer5915 I think the part of the brain that is concerned with long-term memory is separate from the parts involved with immediate decision-making. It is how long-term memories are basically created while we sleep........sooo basically what you're talking about actually exists. In a manner of speaking.
Brilliant! My high school mind could barely get through Dune. The court intrigue threw me off. I can see it is time to revisit the story. Mandatory. Thanks.
It's interesting that at least two of the three worst insults to the Fremen fit Leto. His prescience and the Golden Path are the collar and he won't ever have biological children - so no immortality.
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I couldn't agree more, Quinn... with your views on freedom. Dune teaches us powerful lessons that are lost in modern times about freedom vs security... the ease with which a hero can become a tyrant and many other truths This is by far one of my favorite videos of yours
I think you misunderstood the "I am a predator" comment. It's explained elsewhere in the book: Predators improve the stock. Leto was working towards Siona, someone who couldn't be seen by an oracle. He was pushing humanity in a specific direction, and was willing to kill off the ones who weren't going in that direction. It's further emphasized in another book (the one where Dune itself is destroyed), by pointing out that the Bene Geserit's bashar was a product of Leto's manipulations.
Leto II is one of the most morally ambiguous and complex characters in all of fiction. I want to hate him completely, yet ultimately he saved all humanity. He was evil, a tyrant, and a despot, and a petty fool ruled by jealousy and other human emotions, but ultimately he knew what he was doing. He's one of the few characters who it's genuinely hard to call a hero or a villain, and I'll be wrestling with my feelings about him for quite some time
The Face Dancers aren't at the bottom of the Tleilaxu hierarchy. That's for the Domel. The Face Dancers have NO place in the hierarchy: they're mere tools.
I thought he had made it clear, the slave race. The fact is that, despite not being supposedly independent, and despite being created and used like mere tools, they are a community, and that cannot be ignored or denied. A mere tool has not will, neiterh much, nor Little, nor ability to think or decide. If the Tleilaxu masters needed mere tools for their purposes, they would not have risked creating a race that could fail them. Just look for information about the Tleilaxu hierarchy. The Face Dancers are mentioned as caste. The Domel are the working class but they do not always serve the masters, I mean not directly according to what I understand. However, a Face Dancer has by far more information than any Domel, and more valuable. Can a mere tool have more information than a worker and also be able to use it, is it possible?
More videos like this, please. I love the Dune books but because of a reading disability, I miss some of the nuance. These analyses help me understand the books better which is great.
Mine, too. I really don't get the flack thrown at it because some people think it's pseudo-philosophical cause of all of Leto's musings. It would make since if they were meme platitudes shared on the internet, but in the context of the story, especially the importance of the Golden Path and the sacrifice to provide it, his musings are amazing.
Mine, too. And Leto II is my favorite character ever. But the weakness of that book, I think, is every other character. Siona is worth shit. So is Duncan Idaho (so stupid).
The television miniseries of Children of Dune is very focused on Leto's sacrifice of his physical beauty which I suppose is understandable in a visual medium (though still a little skeevy)
I was sooo sad for Alia. Her atory is just so sad. It seemed like all her family just left her aside knowing what she was going throughm her own mother left the planet and didn't even try to help her :( poor Alia.
@8:10 There seems to be some confusion about political systems here. Leto's government is not "Communist." His state is a monarchy/empire, defined by a rigid hierarchy. Communism (in theory) advocates for the abolition of hierarchy and the state. Leto's empire is characterized by uniformity and conformity imposed from above, but there's no reason to believe this would be the case in a communist society free of top-down decision making. I think the confusion comes from historical examples of governments controlled by political parties which called themselves "Communist" but were in reality authoritarian hierarchies, not unlike Leto's.
True, but that confusion between theory and practice exists in many ways. Almost all modern states claim in their title or the title of their political system that they are a democracy or a republic. If you compare their system with the original ancient hellenic democracy or ancient roman republic, it's night and day.
Regarding the Butlerian Jihad: 1) I personally don’t accept Brian Herbert’s prequel as canon. It’s shlock and not worthy of the Dune name. 2) From reading Frank Herbert’s books, it is clear to me that it was a purely religious question. Sure, individuals in it can always have ulterior motives, but the movement and the war were in the end driven by religion. That means the motivation was that “thinking machines” are a sin. It’s humans playing god and corrupting mankind. 3) Hence, it also wasn’t a war between man and machine but among various factions of humans. One group that wanted to keep employing “thinking machines” and another group that rejected them. Obviously, the latter group won. 4) Equating “thinking machine” with AI seems to be straight forward, but one might inject contemporary understanding into that phrase. I think it’s way more generic than simply AI. To me “thinking machine” wasn’t intended as an accurate description, rather as a derogatory term for any type of computer.
I have considered Brian and Kevin's book canon and I loved their Jihad trilogy. However, I do really likes the points you bring up here and understand why you don't consider them canon. Especially your part 3. Never really thought of it that way.
The Jihad books are very much children of their time. They came out in the wake of The Matrix, which caused tons of Humans vs. AI stories to bubble up. It just felt like these books were surfing that wave and not even particularly competently. And while I don’t want to go so far as to say that they ruined my childhood, they certainly ruined much of Dune for me, so that kicking them out of my personal canon was the healthy thing to do for me. Particularly since we already had a prequel history in the form of the Dune Encyclopedia which was sanctioned by Frank Herbert and was way better in terms of the historical tapestry it wove. It’s such a shame that it was kicked out of the official canon by Brian Herbert in order to make room for the prequel books. As for my main point about the nature of the Jihad, I think it illustrates well the general problem of prequels: Fans automatically fill the gaps of a story in their own minds. By writing prequels, you necessarily disappoint most fans, as you cannot possibly hit the marks on all those mental stories out there. Maybe it’s just me and my mind, but to me it was absolutely obvious that the Butlerian Jihad was not a war between humanity and machines. Nothing of the sort was ever hinted at. And given that religion is the main theme of Frank Herbert‘s books, it was also obvious to me that we‘re looking at religious extremists who took to violence and in their moral fervour, they smashed all the computers, etc. Of course most people wouldn’t want that, hence the necessity for the Jihad. And as history’s written by the winners, when people in the official Dune books refer to it, they do so in a positive manner, when from our point of view as contemporary readers, the Jihadists would be the real bigots and baddies. Brian Herbert’s books never even approached that kind of nuance, whereas the original Dune books are full of them. I particularly like the opening of the second book, Dune Messiah, where you are confronted with the terror of Paul Muad’Dib’s Empire. It’s not just black and white, good and evil. And this theme is omnipresent in all of the original books (the first one might be a bit of an exception there where good and bad are pretty clearly distributed), which is a big reason for why I love them so much.
@@thalamay I agree with you about the Butlerian Jihad rather being a war of ideas than an actual war; I think the meaning of the word ist not just "Holy War" but any struggle at all. And it does not even mean that it was led by a person named Butler, or started on account of something that had happened to a person named Butler, though that started as early as the Dune Encyclopedia. (However, in the Dune Encyclopedia the Jihad leader was referred to as Jehanne or Jean Butler, not as Serena, as in the BH novels!) This is an easy mistake to made, and actually reinforced to me when I first read the novels in German, where it was translated along the line of "Butler's Jihad", while the word "Butlerian" actually suggests something along the lines of "Jihad according to the principles of Butler". As in Samuel Butler, author of the utopian novel Erewhon, which depicts an ideal state where people have also given up technology (or certain aspects of it).
Christiane Alshut Christiane, I like your interpretation as well, though in my mind, the Jihad was violent, at least in the final stages. But it could easily have been a quick and rather small affair like the Russian Revolution. But either way would have been more faithful to Frank Herbert’s original vision, so I wouldn’t complain the way I do about Brian Herbert’s interpretation which I believe misses the mark completely. But anyway, the “war” itself (whatever the form: full scale war, insurgency, coup, peaceful transition of power...) is the least interesting part of the story. Just like in Frank Herbert’s Dune books Muad’Dib’s Jihad isn’t drawn out at length but rather hinted at in anecdotes. It doesn’t matter how the battle lines were drawn and all that. What matters is the psychology, the beliefs and convictions. How people were motivated to fight, what shaped their worldview, etc. But all that was rendered pointless by Brian Herbert’s unimaginative Man vs. Machine plot. In a struggle for their lives, humanity finds all the necessary motivation to fight against the machines. So there was no other story left to tell than how the war unfolded in detail. I guess they did try a bit with the Erasmus sub-plot, but that was terrible for a whole host of different reasons. Mostly the protagonists acted so unbelievable that my suspension of disbelief was constantly shattered. And did I mention that the literary style of Kevin J Anderson is a terrible fit for the Dune universe? It felt more like an unnecessarily drawn out pulp novel rather than the almost philosophical works of Frank Herbert. I’m not saying that Anderson necessarily is a bad writer. I know that he’s held in high regards by many people (though I haven’t read anything else by him). But Dune definitely wasn’t his cup of tea and it certainly didn’t entice me to read more of him. As for the meaning of “Butlerian”, to be fair I never really thought of that before the prequel books. I guess intuitively, I also thought of it the way you described with Butlerian indicating a principle. But this one I don’t mind. A person, a principle, a place, all could have worked given the right story.
@@thalamay And what I disliked most - then the Butlers suddenly became the Corinos, taking that name after the Battle of Corrin. Was that necessary? (That's in the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson novels.) Though perhaps it underlines the statement that those who initiate a revolution that brings them to power might well become dictators at a later point.
Okay. I just HAVE TO COMMENT. I really appreciate your series on Dune. I became obsessed with the Duniverse when the most recent movie came out, but reading the books has been so hard to translate in my ADHD brain. Your videos have helped me as I’m reading each book to really understand the concepts and ideas more. Thank you so much!
13:30 The journal machines recorded his thoughs. He even said he can feel them working as he was dying, so yes they recorded his death. I dont recall if there was much of the story taking place after his death in that book like other characters talking about stuff that lito was too dead to record, i think its possible for them to have been set to record things in the area following his death or something. but... I kinda think not, i think it ended with just his thaughts about the future or something.
The comment you made regarding that humans don’t want peace struck me much as a conversation that Michael Garibaldi has with (I think) John Sheridan in Babylon 5 (Great series….check it out on if you haven’t seen it) that humans always seem to differentiate history by the wars that have been fought, rather than the times of peace between the wars.
Leto II will be one of my all time favourite characters, he's the most human character in the novel, yet is so disturbingly physically and mentally unhuman. He wants to save mankind but will decimate any notion of true free will for centuries to enable it. He denies himself love and companionship all his life and when he finally finds it, he is hated and reviled for it The council of personalities he has to build within himself just keep his darker egos in check is so disturbing I find it fascinating. Truly such a unique character.
It 100% is not correct. The federation uses credits as a currency, but they don't have to pay for most things since galactic large-scale production makes everything they would need to purchase so cheap anyway. The only thing you need is power and a replicator and you're self-sufficient.
God Emperor was the end, so to speak, of the Paul story. I loved how Frank portrayed the wisdom of a 3000 year old person who had to live with the curse of prescience. It was the final chapter of the Golden Path, set in motion, Leto knowing he succeeded in the end.
Thank you so much for creating these videos I loved Dune from the moment I first saw the movie as a kid, it then led me to read the books and immerse myself in the Dune universe to which I was in awe of. Thanks again.
So, how exactly could Leto recall and experience being murdered if the person who was murdered could not pass on genes after the experience of being murdered?
@@Motivatedk9 Sure, but the kids and the descendants of those kids would not have any "genetic" memory of their parents death in war. Example of how (supposedly) this genetic memory of Frank Herbert works - I experience something in my life, then I have kids, the memory of that experience can be genetically passed on to descendants. But, if I experience something in my life after my kids are born they will not have the possibility of possessing a memory of that experience.
My boy Quinn being prescient about the exact problems we would face with AI in the near future, and here we are. Hope those in power do the right stuff with it. Love, love, love, your videos man. Just finished the Frank saga, and now I'm using your content to continue enjoying the Duneverse! Much love ♥
It is completely obvious to me that Frank Herbert never meant the old couple in Idaho's vision to be thinking machines. It was just a contrived way for the Brian Herbert and Anderson to connect their shitty Butlerian Jihad trilogy to the original books. To be clear, I'm not some sorta Dune purist or anything like that. I really enjoyed the House Prequels. The Butlerian Jihad started off okay but just got more ridiculous and exhibited Anderson's obsession with super weapons. I actually think when Anderson is writing a book he's making all the laser sound effects, "Pew pew pew...." Anyway, there's nothing really ambiguous about the identity of Daniel and Marty. They're clearly independent Face Dancers, representative of a whole race of Face Dancers no longer enslaved to their Tleilaxu masters. It was brilliant and chilling to think of such a group of people; FAR more compelling than them being Erasmus and Omnius: two boring as hell villain characters. Daniel and Marty discuss among themselves what they were. It's not like there was someone else there with them and they were trying to fool somebody else as to their true identity. If they're just having a private conversation between themselves, why acknowledge themselves as being Face Dancers. I was totally open minded about Brian and Kevin writing Dune 7. But after having read the Butlerian Jihad, each book being much worse than the last, the second they revealed at the end of the first half that Daniel and Marty were thinking machines, my reaction was actually kinda visceral. My face contorted (danced if you will) in disgust and I just closed the book and sighed heavily and was like, "Okay, I'm done with this. Not canon. Nope."
Siaynoq8 my reaction wasn't immediate disgust and i did finish the main series of books that Anderson wrote but yeah...... absolutely felt out of place. Like a child trying desperately to copy their fathers work without their level of skill or insight.
the idea that the great enemy that will cause the extinction of the human race are face dancers is ridiculous. If the GREAT ENEMY is nothing but face dancers then leto could of wipe the Tleilaxu out of existence way from the beginning. If the great enemy is nothing but face dancers from the scattering then why would leto engineered the scatter? The great enemy cannot be human related because if it's just the humans then leto could of easily fixed the problem.
The Honored Matres were the ones who referred to this mysterious force as the GREAT ENEMY. Through the Tleilaxu mastery of genetics, they were able to fight the Honored Matres and cause them to retreat back to the Old Empire. And there were no independent Face Dancers during Leto's time. The only ones really were the masters like Scytale and they were not very common. And besides, it's arguable that whatever the Tleilaxu are out there in the unknown parts of the galaxy, by then they are far from human, physically or psychologically. And the elderly couple were almost whimsical in referring to their own powers, such as being able to pluck the no-ship out of foldspace and they were indeed so powerful that they almost had nothing more than a passing interest in Duncan and his ragtag group. But the Honored Matres knew the power of race of independent Face Dancers. They couldn't be sexually enslaved, and they could release terrible genetic weapons against the Honored Matres.
Again the enemy that was to end the human race can not stem from the human race. Leto engineered the whole scattering because he wanted to prevent the extinction of the human race. So if the new facer dancers are going to end all humans then leto shouldn't have started the scattering in the first place, and wiped out all of the Tleilaxu when he was god emperor.
The Face Dancers weren't gonna wipe out the humans. They fought against an incursion by the Honored Matres and won. We can debate then WHO the great enemy truly was supposed to be. But nothing can convince me that Herbert meant for Daniel and Marty to be anything other than what they said they were. Could the great enemy have been thinking machines? At this point it seems as likely the great enemy could've been aliens. But Daniel and Marty were members of a race of independent Face Dancers, broken free of the bondage of Tleilax Masters and they were the ones that drove the Honored Matres back into the Old Empire.
My understanding is that there was a record of Letos death because the recording device was connected directly to his brain and all he had to do is cast his thoughts is a certain manor to record them for posterity.
The reason he speaks about his death in his journals is by the Ixian device he was using copied his thoughts as well as words, so while he was falling too his death he could have had those thoughts recorded up until the actual moment of his death
Its fun listening to Quinn's reaction to the "the twins have partaken of the spice orgy"...and yeah..he's right it is weird but that's what Herbert was going for with those characters. Children..with adult minds. How would you react if a 2 year old lectured you on some arcane philosophical point? Or upbraided you in language you could scarecly fathom. lol.
All of your videos are amazing. The thought and care you put into them is truly impressive. I am so glad this channel exists, dune is more relevant now than ever
@@TheodoreIchabod everyone currently complaining about the freedoms being taken from them are right wing nuts; with any luck their refusal to wear masks or get vaccinated will just result in the deaths of them and their loved ones. Get them out of the gene pool.
@@TheodoreIchabod "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" they would have said to people protesting systematic racism while also being the ultimate snowflake karens about having to wear a fuckin mask. it's not evil if it's fair. they played a stupid game, they won the prize. GG.
You are an awesome, kind, warm presenter. I very much enjoyed the Dune books, and you do such a fantastic job of letting me relive them. Thank you for your videos.
your thoughts on this series was absolutely refreshing, though i might not agree with every conclusion you've made, I thoroughly enjoyed your candor and well thought out synopsis..thanks for goin deep man, keep it up
Somebody probably already commented this, but Leto could record journals of his own death because he had some Ixian insta-thought-recording crystal paper that he could just transmit thoughts to whenev
I originally read the DUNE books in decades ago. I have started reading them again in anticipation of the upcoming movie. The thing that always impressed me was the sheer scale of the story. Thousands and thousands of years of the story of one family, and the impact they had on humanity. Leto II's Golden Path was brilliant in that it forced humans to learn that a supreme government or a leader cannot be trusted and ultimately can't be tolerated. Freedom cannot be granted, it has to be taken.
@@colinpatterson6210 agreed, but I'd enjoy hearing IOIAF speculation on the subject (especially after Herbert and Anderson's Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune books, ugh) .
Brian Herbert's sequels - not all his work, mind you - but his sequels, concluding the Dune saga, were a joke, reflecting a rudimentary understanding of his father's message and fan fiction at best. The ultimate villain - Omnius - was a thinking machine, completely misunderstanding Frank Herbert's point about the danger of machines (he was not so concerned about AI as he wasthe- man-in-control-of-AI) and Brian also FLOORED the gas on the gholas, creating ridiculous reincarnations of Leto, Paul, Jessica, and Vladimir Harkonnen, to name a FEW. From what we can glean from Frank Herbert's lectures, earlier books, etc. It's safe to say that his concluding book would be very different. I always imagined the Great Enemy the Honored Matres were fleeing back to known space from was a human settlement controlling thinking machines that were able to predict human behavior with such statistical certainty, they had technological prescience (unlike the biological quasi-spiritual presiscience of Paul, Leto et al). Sheeanna and her Atreides descendants having the precious no-genes created by Leto II in his Golden Path would be the obvious foil to this adversary. To reiterate one of Frank Herbert's earlier points, to know with complete certainty is to take away the surprise, the disappointment, the point of it all, and is a death unto itself, and so I'd imagine it involves the characters -physically or thematically - rejecting any kind of prescience in favor of the joy of 'not knowing' how things will play out, even if - by doing so - you could get everything you wanted in life. One variable to contend with is Daniel and Marty, which Herbert hinted were evolved tleilaxu face dancers. I kind of always had a bit of a "battlestar galactica' red-dress-Six mindset about those two, that while they /may/ have originated as tleilaxu face dancers, basically they were from an omnipotent alien race where time and space had no meaning and they were observing humanity, there to narrate and highlight points about living, leaders, and the likes. Those are broad strokes. Herbert really does repeat a lot of his themes, so while the lack of a narrative-end is /a little/ sad, it's safe to say a concluding chapter to the saga would reiterate much of what he's already said: be careful of charismatic leaders, embrace the chaos, it is better to live in a universe of unknowns, etc. etc. Hope that is an interesting read.
@@dante6985 Great!! I always felt myself that mankind was the Enemy, its own worst enemy, and that Leto II had known that. However, I am not so sure about Daniel and Marty being Face Dancers. I always felt that this was the label the characters attach to these two because it comes closest to what they think they are; yet they ulrimately have no concept of describing who or what they truly are. Daniel and Marty do not really exist "within" the Dune Universe, but outside of it. I like the interpretation that these two are actually representations of Frank Herbert and his wife Beverly - trhe creators of the book and the characters within it. How would an author appear to the characters in their books if they could see them? As infinitely changing and morphing into the characters they create. And the Face Dancers are bred with a view to changing their physical form. So perhaps it's not so far from the mark that if a character from the Dune books meets their creator(s), they will think that they are Face Dancers.
The great irony of it all is that Frank Herbert, like all of his characters, is but another human and "leader" that ultimately must be taken with a grain of salt.
Quick correction, he meant sharing in spice orgies through their collective memory experience. So basically, as children, they knew of the spice orgies and what exactly goes down during those events. Something that no child was expected to know. That was the source of his shock and wonder.
I think I've expressed this before, but you do a really good job of discussing these books. Everytime I get into a new property the first thing I do is go look for theory vids, thematic discussions, online forums etc. There isn't much of that for Dune, at least not as much as there _should_ be. Still, you do a really good job of satisfying that desire for extra content.
In the last Dune talk he said that first of all he wanted to finish with the original six books, but I have the feeling that he will do it, and those who consider themselves as orthodox and more faithfull tan anyone will have to keep their mouths shut.
Here in 2023 Quinn, your ability to clearly breakdown this phenomenal story is great. I discovered your videos after watching Dune part 1. Keep being great !!!
I always thought that the great enemy was that he always saw an end to visible humanity with blind spots caused by prescience that felt non human so he created invisible humanity
You’re a talented speaker sir! Dune is one of the most fascinating if not complicated sci-fi epic ever and it comes through in your videos! Truly Well done👍👍
Todd Gregory-Gibbs They have good points. I think they could be fashioned into a decent script by a good writer. @ least they bring some kind of conclusion to the Dune saga.
@@No-hf5xb The Fake Planet. Good plot point. The baby Tleilaxu. Synchony. Admittedly it needs fine tuning but I think u could get a movie or two out of those books.
You should totally do more rambling recordings such as this, i find your opinions not only on DUNE but society, science, philosophy to be really insightful.
At the end of your ultimate guide I was struggling to see the full picture so one thank you for this video and two thank you for being a stand-up person. I think you're very wise man and I thank you for your work on this little project.
Is there any world/universe building author today that can compare to dune or middle earth by Tolkien? To some degree star trek and star wars can be included. I feel like these worlds are sooo vast that any scifi or fantasy written today would struggle to not be accused of copying from one of these
Also just wanted to say I am really loving all your vids, not just the Dune ones. And your voice acting is really awesome dude. Awesome and we appreciate your work dude.
First, God emporer of dune tells of the 4000 year reign of Leto, his meeting of the women he actually falls in love with, the Duncan Idaho golems, the different ways Leto controls the universe, how he dies in a fall from a bridge on the way to his annual festival and lands in the river below and falls apart into sandtrout. Talks about the Ixian devices he uses to copy down his thoughts( but denies use of this type of device to everyone else in universe). The book does take place over just a short time, but the backstory info goes back over 5000 years, even before Leto himself was born on dune. Explains much but opens even more questions....
I'm glad I stumbled across your channel. I just watched dune 2021 again for the like 5th time and wanted more lore and found myself watching your stuff. I think your explanations are great and your opinions are on point. Also I am finding that I love Dune lore. I havent read the books and honestly, I probably never will because I am a soft brained individual, but I will eat up the videos and movies and maybe just maybe one day, the audio books haha.
I was just reading Dune God Emperor last week and Leto II says that his Ixian devices read his thoughts. So when Nayla blows up the bridge he turned on the Ixian device telepathically and recorded what he could before his death.
I think worship of a leader or government is essentially the same thing. Worshipping a leader or ideology will lead to this. Whether its a religion, communism, nation. Its the centralisation of power thats the issue.
Ok I never knew Dune was a book never the less a series until utube and I thank all of you who have made video's and who have educated me about all of this subject thank you all
I love Dune I have several sons, and one of my son's middle names is Leto. I always tell people "Leto, like from Frank Herbert's Dune. Not Leto the sun god from Fullmetal Alchemist."
Just letting everyone know that I considered deleting this video because I don't agree with some of the things I said in it about the political structure of the Dune universe. I've decided to leave it up because some people still enjoy the discussion but just know that this video doesn't accurately reflect my current beliefs.
Star Trek has post scarcity.
star trek has post scarcity. dune has capitalist monopolies.
Don’t delete it, please! I don’t agree with a few things but it’s good to get a different perspective even if you disagree with yourself today as well. It shows how you have grown too.
@@TheBonzaiKitten dune has autocratic rule and nationalized economy but thats some cool mental gymnastics you got.
isnt it cool that you can voice your wrong opinion?
@@admiralMcmufin yes,it is cool - Chill out a bit. But thanks for the correction
I especially like that Paul saw the need for the Golden Path but couldn't go through with it. Really adds to what Leto ended up doing.
You know I always thought he saw the fremen jihad where 61 billion died but he was really seeing kralizec??
he was looking for a path that avoided the jihad, but couldn't find one in which humanity survived after.
Paul saw he wasn’t the man to lead it, that he had to leave the foundation.
The Price was too high. I really love that scene in Children of Dune when Paul and Leto meet in the desert and Muad'Dib realices that his son has made the decision and there is no going back. I still get chills when I read that scene.
@@codyi5232 yes the strength of the base of the pillar
An aspect of the Golden Path was extreme natural selection- he was intentionally extremely oppressive, but he was also encouraging rebellion- and breeding for it with his program for prescient-invisible traits (who better to rebel against him than someone he can't see)- at the same time hunting those rebels with all his might so that when one finally succeeded in challenging him, it would be in the form of the strongest possible stock, tested to the very limit. For him being overthrown meant that he not only set the stage for the scattering, but also created an environment that could produce opponents that could defeat "God"- he gave humanity boundless powers, and a thirst for adventure and expansion.
Yeah he’s a predator that hunted down everyone that was weak/weaker than him, which in the end produced very powerful humans that could challenge/overthrow/kill him.
You can see that in the scene where the Tleilaxu attack the Ixian embassy as they can pull of an unexpected attack like that or with Siona ofc.
God Emperor of Dune was the first book in which I felt the antagonist and the protagonist are the same person.
leto did himself in lol
This book is mindboggling. I'm kind of obsessed with it. Read it more than 10x already.
Indeed my favourite book in the saga. i thought children of dune was good but this was better.
Both ship and storm
@@woo1818 shepherd and predator.
"Charismatic leaders should come with a warning lable: MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH." - Frank Herbert.
I find it interesting that, as far as I know, Herbert never once mentioned Muhammad, and only referred to the Quran obliquely with the term Al Kitab (the book). A writer as skilled as Herbert knows better than to be direct.
The best writers always leave a bit of cognition to the reader.
But these seems to be contradicted by the fact that his dictator protagonists appear to save humanity from extinction.
@@tph2010 ...because of his INHUMANE nature. It is a valuable fact in the therms of this discussion.
@@tph2010 Also there's and interesting indirect question Herbert asks, as I see it: if there's no observable God in control - can One be artificially created or evolve from the known species?.. Will it be The God by philosophical definitions rather than religious dogma?.. And where's the line that differs a true God from a mortal being yet of a greatest known power (over humankind)...
People think I'm crazy when I start talking about Dune, I believe it is one of the most important stories ever written...I don't just mean in modern writing...it's themes are universal and timeless...it will always be a relevant story and I wish more people had read it...all of the books
Douglas Morgan Yes! When I start to explain the books, they look at me like I'm from another planet ....like Dune or IX!!!
Oh when I say Dune, I mean all the books...they were written from notes his father had for where he wanted to take the stories...they are 100% canon
Douglas Morgan
Maybe they are 100% Canon and perhaps I need to reread the books all the way though again...
But the Daniel and Marty parts in an early print hardcover of Chapterhouse that is available in my local library gives no hint of them being other than sophisticated (for want of a better word) Facedancers who somehow became independent as far as I can tell
Kimberly Williams even you replying with IX had me going..."this lady gets it" lol
Douglas Morgan
Yes!! I read the original series all the way through when i was pretty young, my parents were big on books and sci fi and fantasy. When i read them originally i was blown away. Its hard to explain, but the themes and ideas were almost religious to me. I continued to reread the series, and even the expanded books as i grew up, but i never lost that feeling from the books as i got older. Still, today at almost 30 years old, dune and its themes feel almost sacred. Maybe its because i read the series so young. But yeah man. The original series is like a bible to me.
I take the expanded books with a grain of salt, but i feel they fill in alot of details and totally enjoy them. I dont know if they are cannon or not, but still feel that theyre important.
It was great joy for me to stumble upon my artwork of Leto II on his throne, especially in your chanell! :)
It's an amazing piece of art without the dune link but actually linking it just makes it better by so much. well done it's lovely.
You did that? It's one of my favourite Dune pieces, very evocative.
Lovely work, man! You should sue the video's author for using your art!
All the art and audio is amazing
And still no credit to the artist?
"I will teach humanity a lesson they will remember in their bones." Paraphrasing. Very much enjoy your work, dude. Keep it up.
your videos made me pick up the whole dune series and just binge read. thank you
SYFY Children of Dune decent visual like Lynch/DUNE SAMPLE playlist ua-cam.com/play/PLC34E5CF002224561.html
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My too I've read the first three books in just over 6 days.
Me too
also: Leto forced people to walk nearly everywhere. Despite technology and suspensors being known for long time prior to Leto II., people had no access to them and transported goods like on ancient earth before the industrial revolution. Thus he slowed them even more down.
Leto was the ultimate teacher, branding lessons into humans on the genetic level.
@S C he just wanted everyone jacked
(@13:45) When Leto II died at the end the book mentions that his final moments were being recorded in the no room thought recording device, that's how even his final thoughts were recorded.
The interesting thing about Leto's Golden Path is that he laid a groundwork of oppression for every single ethnic group, every planet, every society in the entire Empire to look back on and start over from.
They had, thanks to him, a history that they would always refer to while moving on with their journeys.
The Fremen were constantly referring to their Zensunni wandering times and the oppression and statelessness as a way to bring cohesiveness to the tribes and their way of life. Imagine that on a Galactic scale with countless millions of communities and ethnicities having a shared history of misery.
Yeah, but Leto did not bring cohesiveness, just the opposite. Think about the events after his death.
Planet of the Atheists very good point. That never occurred to me.
@@zannaifacedancer5915 the Scattering and the Famine Times--another good point.
Thank you. I have read Heretics and Chapterhouse twice, and the sequels once so far. In fact Heretics is my favorite. In my view the scattering was such an interesting event to explore with a lot of stories that ought to be heard, as my favorite artist Emilie Autumn would say. Frank Herbert preferred to encourage readers to use our imagination.
While I can understand why Leto II was called the Tyrant, it still stung when I read the last three books in the series where characters (particularly the Bene Gesserit) referred to him by that name. Even though he held the Known Universe under extremely tight control for millenia I think the ultimate objective of the Golden Path was not only to maintain Humanity's viability as a species but to give them the capability to remain free. Take the No Gene and No Technology, for example. An individual like Muaddib or the God Emperor could maintain an iron grip on Humanity in the absence of people with the No Gene or people with access to No Ships / Rooms / Globes. No Genes / Technology create multiple X factors that almost nullify the edge prescience gives someone like a Muaddib or a God Emperor. It's almost as if Leto II was restoring a chaos factor (for lack of a better description) to the system to keep Humanity from becoming stagnant. I couldn't imagine the Bene Gesserit doing something like that. They're all about order and control. Even though there was an element of calculation about Leto II's Golden Path I think there was always an element of risk since after his death he would no longer be able to exercise control over everything. I'm sure some people would argue that there was an element of risk in the Bene Gesserit's breeding program, but it seems like they went to great lengths to reduce any risk (especially after Muaddib and the God Emperor) . In Chapterhouse Dune (perhaps Heretics, too) there were remarks by Odrade (maybe Taraza, too) about "putting down" offspring of the breeding program that displayed unusual abilities. The Bene Gesserit want to control Humanity and its destiny but they're afraid of the wild seed or talents that would keep Humanity viable. While the Bene Gesserit may have survived the Tyrant if it weren't for Leto II's Golden Path all the Bene Gesserit would do is lead Humanity into stagnation. What can I say though? It's obvious that I'm biased toward the God Emperor.
I thought the twins participated in the spice orgy through their memories only. Which makes Leto even more sad because he never really experienced the intimate touch of another person except through memory.
What there's a spice orgy???
These books were so fucking fantastic I'm shocked at the quality of them. Frank was truly a literally genius.
And a visionary.
Leto called himself the ultimate predator of humanity and in that he was correct. He was changing his prey, humanity, which is the function of the predator: to weed out the weak and in doing so make the prey species stronger. Great video btw, makes me want to reread the book!
Darrylizer1 « and in doing so make the prey species stronger »
... who taught you biology ?
That’s not how evolution work at all ^^
Sure, that can be on effect of predation, but huge swaths of biodiversity through history didn’t get « stronger » as a result, they got smaller, weaker, more furtive, they bred more, etc.
What a predator does to a prey species is maintaining positive and negative selection pressures for certain traits.
He was simply giving the prey the ability to avoid future predators like him with prescient traits.
@@EELLISON2012 Yes.
@@nathanjora7627 No shit. I don't think you know what "stronger" means in this context. Leto was trying to remove prescience as a tool to control humanity.
There are countless ways in which socialism is currently working in America society. From basic education, 🔥, 🚔, libraries, 🏥, social nets, and etc.
I always thought he was trying to make humans immune to prescience so that no single tyrant could control them again as he does, I forgot about the great enemy bit. There might be future dictators, but they can be dealt with. A literal God Emperor...not so much
Computer algorithms can predict chaotic seeming systems, and the thinking machines were way more sophisticated than our modern quantum computing entangled sets.
The most tragic part of leto is that through his extended humanity he loved everything more than anyone and wanted it to survive,
but for it to survive he had to go beyond it leaving him without an equal and since love can only be a relationship between equals no one could love him especially after ghanima died the most equal person to him
That's why Paul didn't want to take the golden path it required him not to be loved
And that is why Paul did not take it, and why chani had to die he skipped his destiny and the happiness he had was borrowed
He loved humanity as a father who understood that sometimes you can't spare the rod. Sometimes you have to teach your kids a lesson their bones will remember.
Exactly, it was why he chose a path of compromise with a Jihad. But the compromised path wouldn't have been as effective as the Golden Path. Leto told him and he knew he had failed.
This is incorrect. Love is not a relationship between equals. That's a lie of the modern world. Your parents are not your equals for most of your life, assuming you ever become their equal, and yet they still love you(theoretically).
God, the personification and example of true perfect love, loves all of us, but not a single one of us is an equal to God. Love does not require both parties to be equals. That's just something concocted by the modern age to destabilize and devalue love.
@@NovusIgnis Yes love does not require "equals", however that is defined. But it seems as if you're taking this "equals" thing way too literally in the quantitative sense. "Equals" in the modern age means each individual in the (assumed) monogamous relationship has essentially the same level of power to guide, follow, learn, make decisions, express themselves, etc. It's not the notion that everything is by-the-book, to-the-letter, by-the-numbers exactly equal.
@@SurelyYewJest I know what equals in the modern age means. I simply reject their definition. It's the same issue we have with courtesy and respect. People are affronted when you don't respect them even though they've given you no reason to do so. Respect is earned, not deserved. What they're looking for is courtesy, not respect, but they get the words twisted. It's the same with love. Love does not require both sides to be equals. Period.
I have a friend who suffers from panic attacks. I gave her a copy of Dune. Now when she gets one she says the litany against fear and the attack stops.
Fear is the mind killer
@@WilliamWrigley-z5ufear is the little death that brings total obliteration
I’m happy to see I’m not the only one who’s adopted the Litany for difficult moments
"Nobody care who I was, until I turned myself into a worm"
- Latto ( in my head canon )
*Leto* And he's the II.
Leto II was a pre-born son of the emperor, god-alive Paul. Yeah no, people definitely cared about him before his metamorphosis
They cared a lot when he was still an 8 year old boy slaying dozens and casually lifting starships
Letos sacrifice; took 3,400 years to make a assassin capable of killing him. Great videos thanks Quinn 👍
3500*
the first years of his reign with ghanima and everyone he knew mustve been joyful but after id honestly rather kill myself than live through letos sacrifice
From what was explained in the books, one who has the ability to travel through a past life, can only do so up to the point of conception of the next descendant. So Leto could only explore the memories of Paul from birth to his own conception, and he could only explore the memories of Duke Leto until the moment of Paul's conception and so on going back in both male and female lines all the way back to the first humans who were sentient. I am sure there are repeat ancstors from various of their children so giving different depths of their memories from later born children, but would not contain all humans who had ever lived, as many died young or childless. A vast assemblage of people, but not everyone who ever lived.
This was my understanding too, initially, though if I'm not mistaken, when Leto completes his transformation, I believe his powers do evolve further beyond Pauls.
Does that mean that they never gain the insight, growth or more importantly, the new _perspective_ that comes with becoming a parent? When I became a father, I personally found there to be a profound encompassing shift in my perspective.
Is it possible for there to have been other children born _before_ the life that is being accessed. Does that make sense?
I mean, there's probably a few million younger siblings in there somewhere, plus, they could reflect on their wealth of memories of parents from the perspectives of their children. It wouldn't be perfect, but I imagine having the totality of prescient knowledge and memories from your entire lineage would afford you something to work with.
Thomas Kelly I'd say it's certain that a lot of those ancestors had other children before they had the child who was the direct ancestor of Leto II. Him and his sister weren't even Paul's first child, the first Leto II was just unfortunate enough to die not long after being born.
@@MechanicaMenace That's right. . . I had forgotten that first child. Thanks.
Thank you both for the replies.
The ixian devices in leto's mind write his thoughts automatically, even as lay diying.
It would be great if there was a machine like that, so we would be forced to focus our minds on the most immediate task. Otherwise you can imagine what a disaster.
@@zannaifacedancer5915 well we have twitter and the dumbfuck dictator
@@zannaifacedancer5915 I think the part of the brain that is concerned with long-term memory is separate from the parts involved with immediate decision-making. It is how long-term memories are basically created while we sleep........sooo basically what you're talking about actually exists. In a manner of speaking.
Brilliant! My high school mind could barely get through Dune. The court intrigue threw me off. I can see it is time to revisit the story. Mandatory.
Thanks.
20:00 I'm glad you are keeping a very diplomatic attitude towards Brian Herbert and KJA. I appreciate this sort of maturity.
Dune videos must keep flowing!
Danilo Jobim The dune videos must flow!
Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's version of the Butlerian Jihan is just basically a Terminator skynet scene.
Unfortunately, they do not have the flair and depth of speculative fiction that Brian's father did.
It's interesting that at least two of the three worst insults to the Fremen fit Leto. His prescience and the Golden Path are the collar and he won't ever have biological children - so no immortality.
Damn you're right, it's just that I have never understood that insult about the collar. The barbarian Fish Speakers would have a beautiful prey here.
" a population on foot is easier to control"~Moneo Atradies
Again these dune videos are all amazing.
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I couldn't agree more, Quinn... with your views on freedom.
Dune teaches us powerful lessons that are lost in modern times about freedom vs security...
the ease with which a hero can become a tyrant and many other truths
This is by far one of my favorite videos of yours
I think you misunderstood the "I am a predator" comment. It's explained elsewhere in the book: Predators improve the stock. Leto was working towards Siona, someone who couldn't be seen by an oracle. He was pushing humanity in a specific direction, and was willing to kill off the ones who weren't going in that direction. It's further emphasized in another book (the one where Dune itself is destroyed), by pointing out that the Bene Geserit's bashar was a product of Leto's manipulations.
Ohhh, this gives me good memories of the first time I read Heretics. When Miles first realizes what he can actually do.
Leto II is one of the most morally ambiguous and complex characters in all of fiction. I want to hate him completely, yet ultimately he saved all humanity. He was evil, a tyrant, and a despot, and a petty fool ruled by jealousy and other human emotions, but ultimately he knew what he was doing. He's one of the few characters who it's genuinely hard to call a hero or a villain, and I'll be wrestling with my feelings about him for quite some time
Anti-hero, perhaps?
The Face Dancers aren't at the bottom of the Tleilaxu hierarchy. That's for the Domel. The Face Dancers have NO place in the hierarchy: they're mere tools.
I thought he had made it clear, the slave race. The fact is that, despite not being supposedly independent, and despite being created and used like mere tools, they are a community, and that cannot be ignored or denied. A mere tool has not will, neiterh much, nor Little, nor ability to think or decide. If the Tleilaxu masters needed mere tools for their purposes, they would not have risked creating a race that could fail them. Just look for information about the Tleilaxu hierarchy. The Face Dancers are mentioned as caste. The Domel are the working class but they do not always serve the masters, I mean not directly according to what I understand. However, a Face Dancer has by far more information than any Domel, and more valuable. Can a mere tool have more information than a worker and also be able to use it, is it possible?
More videos like this, please. I love the Dune books but because of a reading disability, I miss some of the nuance. These analyses help me understand the books better which is great.
God Emperor of Dune is my favorite book in the Frank Herbert series.
Mine, too. I really don't get the flack thrown at it because some people think it's pseudo-philosophical cause of all of Leto's musings. It would make since if they were meme platitudes shared on the internet, but in the context of the story, especially the importance of the Golden Path and the sacrifice to provide it, his musings are amazing.
Mine, too. And Leto II is my favorite character ever.
But the weakness of that book, I think, is every other character. Siona is worth shit. So is Duncan Idaho (so stupid).
The television miniseries of Children of Dune is very focused on Leto's sacrifice of his physical beauty which I suppose is understandable in a visual medium (though still a little skeevy)
I am so happy that I came across this channel. Keep up the content dude, it’s fantastic.
Dune - Best Sci-Fi Series I have ever read.
Me too, me too, me too. My favorites are Messiah and God-Emperor. Tons of respect and all my thanks for making these DUNE videos.
I was sooo sad for Alia. Her atory is just so sad. It seemed like all her family just left her aside knowing what she was going throughm her own mother left the planet and didn't even try to help her :( poor Alia.
@8:10 There seems to be some confusion about political systems here. Leto's government is not "Communist." His state is a monarchy/empire, defined by a rigid hierarchy. Communism (in theory) advocates for the abolition of hierarchy and the state. Leto's empire is characterized by uniformity and conformity imposed from above, but there's no reason to believe this would be the case in a communist society free of top-down decision making. I think the confusion comes from historical examples of governments controlled by political parties which called themselves "Communist" but were in reality authoritarian hierarchies, not unlike Leto's.
Exactly. I agree.
True, but that confusion between theory and practice exists in many ways. Almost all modern states claim in their title or the title of their political system that they are a democracy or a republic. If you compare their system with the original ancient hellenic democracy or ancient roman republic, it's night and day.
Really well put!
Leto’s forced peace was a dam on the River of humanity. The flood was released when he was killed.
Regarding the Butlerian Jihad:
1) I personally don’t accept Brian Herbert’s prequel as canon. It’s shlock and not worthy of the Dune name.
2) From reading Frank Herbert’s books, it is clear to me that it was a purely religious question. Sure, individuals in it can always have ulterior motives, but the movement and the war were in the end driven by religion. That means the motivation was that “thinking machines” are a sin. It’s humans playing god and corrupting mankind.
3) Hence, it also wasn’t a war between man and machine but among various factions of humans. One group that wanted to keep employing “thinking machines” and another group that rejected them. Obviously, the latter group won.
4) Equating “thinking machine” with AI seems to be straight forward, but one might inject contemporary understanding into that phrase. I think it’s way more generic than simply AI. To me “thinking machine” wasn’t intended as an accurate description, rather as a derogatory term for any type of computer.
I have considered Brian and Kevin's book canon and I loved their Jihad trilogy. However, I do really likes the points you bring up here and understand why you don't consider them canon. Especially your part 3. Never really thought of it that way.
The Jihad books are very much children of their time. They came out in the wake of The Matrix, which caused tons of Humans vs. AI stories to bubble up. It just felt like these books were surfing that wave and not even particularly competently. And while I don’t want to go so far as to say that they ruined my childhood, they certainly ruined much of Dune for me, so that kicking them out of my personal canon was the healthy thing to do for me. Particularly since we already had a prequel history in the form of the Dune Encyclopedia which was sanctioned by Frank Herbert and was way better in terms of the historical tapestry it wove. It’s such a shame that it was kicked out of the official canon by Brian Herbert in order to make room for the prequel books.
As for my main point about the nature of the Jihad, I think it illustrates well the general problem of prequels: Fans automatically fill the gaps of a story in their own minds. By writing prequels, you necessarily disappoint most fans, as you cannot possibly hit the marks on all those mental stories out there.
Maybe it’s just me and my mind, but to me it was absolutely obvious that the Butlerian Jihad was not a war between humanity and machines. Nothing of the sort was ever hinted at.
And given that religion is the main theme of Frank Herbert‘s books, it was also obvious to me that we‘re looking at religious extremists who took to violence and in their moral fervour, they smashed all the computers, etc. Of course most people wouldn’t want that, hence the necessity for the Jihad. And as history’s written by the winners, when people in the official Dune books refer to it, they do so in a positive manner, when from our point of view as contemporary readers, the Jihadists would be the real bigots and baddies.
Brian Herbert’s books never even approached that kind of nuance, whereas the original Dune books are full of them. I particularly like the opening of the second book, Dune Messiah, where you are confronted with the terror of Paul Muad’Dib’s Empire. It’s not just black and white, good and evil.
And this theme is omnipresent in all of the original books (the first one might be a bit of an exception there where good and bad are pretty clearly distributed), which is a big reason for why I love them so much.
@@thalamay I agree with you about the Butlerian Jihad rather being a war of ideas than an actual war; I think the meaning of the word ist not just "Holy War" but any struggle at all. And it does not even mean that it was led by a person named Butler, or started on account of something that had happened to a person named Butler, though that started as early as the Dune Encyclopedia. (However, in the Dune Encyclopedia the Jihad leader was referred to as Jehanne or Jean Butler, not as Serena, as in the BH novels!) This is an easy mistake to made, and actually reinforced to me when I first read the novels in German, where it was translated along the line of "Butler's Jihad", while the word "Butlerian" actually suggests something along the lines of "Jihad according to the principles of Butler". As in Samuel Butler, author of the utopian novel Erewhon, which depicts an ideal state where people have also given up technology (or certain aspects of it).
Christiane Alshut
Christiane, I like your interpretation as well, though in my mind, the Jihad was violent, at least in the final stages. But it could easily have been a quick and rather small affair like the Russian Revolution.
But either way would have been more faithful to Frank Herbert’s original vision, so I wouldn’t complain the way I do about Brian Herbert’s interpretation which I believe misses the mark completely.
But anyway, the “war” itself (whatever the form: full scale war, insurgency, coup, peaceful transition of power...) is the least interesting part of the story. Just like in Frank Herbert’s Dune books Muad’Dib’s Jihad isn’t drawn out at length but rather hinted at in anecdotes. It doesn’t matter how the battle lines were drawn and all that. What matters is the psychology, the beliefs and convictions. How people were motivated to fight, what shaped their worldview, etc. But all that was rendered pointless by Brian Herbert’s unimaginative Man vs. Machine plot. In a struggle for their lives, humanity finds all the necessary motivation to fight against the machines. So there was no other story left to tell than how the war unfolded in detail. I guess they did try a bit with the Erasmus sub-plot, but that was terrible for a whole host of different reasons. Mostly the protagonists acted so unbelievable that my suspension of disbelief was constantly shattered.
And did I mention that the literary style of Kevin J Anderson is a terrible fit for the Dune universe? It felt more like an unnecessarily drawn out pulp novel rather than the almost philosophical works of Frank Herbert. I’m not saying that Anderson necessarily is a bad writer. I know that he’s held in high regards by many people (though I haven’t read anything else by him). But Dune definitely wasn’t his cup of tea and it certainly didn’t entice me to read more of him.
As for the meaning of “Butlerian”, to be fair I never really thought of that before the prequel books. I guess intuitively, I also thought of it the way you described with Butlerian indicating a principle. But this one I don’t mind. A person, a principle, a place, all could have worked given the right story.
@@thalamay And what I disliked most - then the Butlers suddenly became the Corinos, taking that name after the Battle of Corrin. Was that necessary? (That's in the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson novels.) Though perhaps it underlines the statement that those who initiate a revolution that brings them to power might well become dictators at a later point.
Okay. I just HAVE TO COMMENT. I really appreciate your series on Dune. I became obsessed with the Duniverse when the most recent movie came out, but reading the books has been so hard to translate in my ADHD brain. Your videos have helped me as I’m reading each book to really understand the concepts and ideas more. Thank you so much!
Leto II is such an underrated hero in sci-fi.
Leto II is NOT a hero at all.
@@Rgoid I actually see him as a Hero. He willingly let go of his own humanity to save others'. On a more cosmic scale of course...
@@Rgoid He became the ultimate villian to save humans from peace and stagnation along with an unknown enemy.
@@demi-fiendoftime3825 Save them from peace? He’s a complicated villain, but he’s still a villain.
Wouldnt he be more of a tragic hero than a villain
13:30 The journal machines recorded his thoughs. He even said he can feel them working as he was dying, so yes they recorded his death. I dont recall if there was much of the story taking place after his death in that book like other characters talking about stuff that lito was too dead to record, i think its possible for them to have been set to record things in the area following his death or something. but... I kinda think not, i think it ended with just his thaughts about the future or something.
I could listen to this all day
I think the picture of Leto II in your thumbnail is probably the most accurate depiction of his worm form that I've ever seen.
The comment you made regarding that humans don’t want peace struck me much as a conversation that Michael Garibaldi has with (I think) John Sheridan in Babylon 5 (Great series….check it out on if you haven’t seen it) that humans always seem to differentiate history by the wars that have been fought, rather than the times of peace between the wars.
Leto II will be one of my all time favourite characters, he's the most human character in the novel, yet is so disturbingly physically and mentally unhuman. He wants to save mankind but will decimate any notion of true free will for centuries to enable it. He denies himself love and companionship all his life and when he finally finds it, he is hated and reviled for it The council of personalities he has to build within himself just keep his darker egos in check is so disturbing I find it fascinating. Truly such a unique character.
"Total 100% socialism in Star Trek"
I bet you 5 bars of gold-pressed latinum that's not true.
It 100% is not correct. The federation uses credits as a currency, but they don't have to pay for most things since galactic large-scale production makes everything they would need to purchase so cheap anyway. The only thing you need is power and a replicator and you're self-sufficient.
Socialism doesn’t mean lack of money, it means a collective control. And latinum is not from the federation.
Damn, GEoD is my favorite Dune book by far.
God Emperor was the end, so to speak, of the Paul story. I loved how Frank portrayed the wisdom of a 3000 year old person who had to live with the curse of prescience. It was the final chapter of the Golden Path, set in motion, Leto knowing he succeeded in the end.
I don't see the Brian Herbert stuff as Canon I don't think it's really bad but we get many clues in the books that contradict it
I don't either. There are problems where he contradicts some of his father's Dune tenets. And the writing isn't nearly as good.
Thank you so much for creating these videos I loved Dune from the moment I first saw the movie as a kid, it then led me to read the books and immerse myself in the Dune universe to which I was in awe of. Thanks again.
So, how exactly could Leto recall and experience being murdered if the person who was murdered could not pass on genes after the experience of being murdered?
This is not genetic memories is precience , they are different.
People don't have kids before dying in a war??? Umm of course they do
@@Motivatedk9 No, you really just don't get it at all.
@@Motivatedk9 Sure, but the kids and the descendants of those kids would not have any "genetic" memory of their parents death in war. Example of how (supposedly) this genetic memory of Frank Herbert works - I experience something in my life, then I have kids, the memory of that experience can be genetically passed on to descendants. But, if I experience something in my life after my kids are born they will not have the possibility of possessing a memory of that experience.
@@mikec555555 mabye part of it is genetic memory and he fills in the gaps with presence?
My boy Quinn being prescient about the exact problems we would face with AI in the near future, and here we are. Hope those in power do the right stuff with it.
Love, love, love, your videos man.
Just finished the Frank saga, and now I'm using your content to continue enjoying the Duneverse! Much love ♥
It is completely obvious to me that Frank Herbert never meant the old couple in Idaho's vision to be thinking machines. It was just a contrived way for the Brian Herbert and Anderson to connect their shitty Butlerian Jihad trilogy to the original books.
To be clear, I'm not some sorta Dune purist or anything like that. I really enjoyed the House Prequels. The Butlerian Jihad started off okay but just got more ridiculous and exhibited Anderson's obsession with super weapons. I actually think when Anderson is writing a book he's making all the laser sound effects, "Pew pew pew...."
Anyway, there's nothing really ambiguous about the identity of Daniel and Marty. They're clearly independent Face Dancers, representative of a whole race of Face Dancers no longer enslaved to their Tleilaxu masters. It was brilliant and chilling to think of such a group of people; FAR more compelling than them being Erasmus and Omnius: two boring as hell villain characters.
Daniel and Marty discuss among themselves what they were. It's not like there was someone else there with them and they were trying to fool somebody else as to their true identity. If they're just having a private conversation between themselves, why acknowledge themselves as being Face Dancers.
I was totally open minded about Brian and Kevin writing Dune 7. But after having read the Butlerian Jihad, each book being much worse than the last, the second they revealed at the end of the first half that Daniel and Marty were thinking machines, my reaction was actually kinda visceral. My face contorted (danced if you will) in disgust and I just closed the book and sighed heavily and was like, "Okay, I'm done with this. Not canon. Nope."
Siaynoq8 my reaction wasn't immediate disgust and i did finish the main series of books that Anderson wrote but yeah...... absolutely felt out of place. Like a child trying desperately to copy their fathers work without their level of skill or insight.
the idea that the great enemy that will cause the extinction of the human race are face dancers is ridiculous. If the GREAT ENEMY is nothing but face dancers then leto could of wipe the Tleilaxu out of existence way from the beginning. If the great enemy is nothing but face dancers from the scattering then why would leto engineered the scatter? The great enemy cannot be human related because if it's just the humans then leto could of easily fixed the problem.
The Honored Matres were the ones who referred to this mysterious force as the GREAT ENEMY. Through the Tleilaxu mastery of genetics, they were able to fight the Honored Matres and cause them to retreat back to the Old Empire. And there were no independent Face Dancers during Leto's time. The only ones really were the masters like Scytale and they were not very common.
And besides, it's arguable that whatever the Tleilaxu are out there in the unknown parts of the galaxy, by then they are far from human, physically or psychologically. And the elderly couple were almost whimsical in referring to their own powers, such as being able to pluck the no-ship out of foldspace and they were indeed so powerful that they almost had nothing more than a passing interest in Duncan and his ragtag group. But the Honored Matres knew the power of race of independent Face Dancers. They couldn't be sexually enslaved, and they could release terrible genetic weapons against the Honored Matres.
Again the enemy that was to end the human race can not stem from the human race. Leto engineered the whole scattering because he wanted to prevent the extinction of the human race. So if the new facer dancers are going to end all humans then leto shouldn't have started the scattering in the first place, and wiped out all of the Tleilaxu when he was god emperor.
The Face Dancers weren't gonna wipe out the humans. They fought against an incursion by the Honored Matres and won. We can debate then WHO the great enemy truly was supposed to be. But nothing can convince me that Herbert meant for Daniel and Marty to be anything other than what they said they were. Could the great enemy have been thinking machines? At this point it seems as likely the great enemy could've been aliens. But Daniel and Marty were members of a race of independent Face Dancers, broken free of the bondage of Tleilax Masters and they were the ones that drove the Honored Matres back into the Old Empire.
10:46
and now its 2022. We really did stand idly by
You have a fantastic channel and a really great voice. I would absolutely listen to an audiobook narrated by you!
My understanding is that there was a record of Letos death because the recording device was connected directly to his brain and all he had to do is cast his thoughts is a certain manor to record them for posterity.
after watching this video I decided to buy the books, never knew dune was so weird.
The reason he speaks about his death in his journals is by the Ixian device he was using copied his thoughts as well as words, so while he was falling too his death he could have had those thoughts recorded up until the actual moment of his death
Its fun listening to Quinn's reaction to the "the twins have partaken of the spice orgy"...and yeah..he's right it is weird but that's what Herbert was going for with those characters. Children..with adult minds. How would you react if a 2 year old lectured you on some arcane philosophical point? Or upbraided you in language you could scarecly fathom. lol.
All of your videos are amazing. The thought and care you put into them is truly impressive. I am so glad this channel exists, dune is more relevant now than ever
"We really shouldn't stand ideally by whilst our freedoms get stripped back"
That hurt rn.
yeah. that didn't age well.
@@Badhammer315 On the contrary, it aged perfectly, it is more relevant than ever. Make noise.
@@TheodoreIchabod everyone currently complaining about the freedoms being taken from them are right wing nuts; with any luck their refusal to wear masks or get vaccinated will just result in the deaths of them and their loved ones. Get them out of the gene pool.
@@Badhammer315 That is a truly disgusting opinion. I feel sorry for you, that such evil has crept into your mind. You need help.
@@TheodoreIchabod "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" they would have said to people protesting systematic racism while also being the ultimate snowflake karens about having to wear a fuckin mask. it's not evil if it's fair. they played a stupid game, they won the prize. GG.
You are an awesome, kind, warm presenter. I very much enjoyed the Dune books, and you do such a fantastic job of letting me relive them. Thank you for your videos.
as a fan of the series I must say you did us right :) "tip or edge, get it done...."
your thoughts on this series was absolutely refreshing, though i might not agree with every conclusion you've made, I thoroughly enjoyed your candor and well thought out synopsis..thanks for goin deep man, keep it up
Somebody probably already commented this, but Leto could record journals of his own death because he had some Ixian insta-thought-recording crystal paper that he could just transmit thoughts to whenev
I originally read the DUNE books in decades ago. I have started reading them again in anticipation of the upcoming movie.
The thing that always impressed me was the sheer scale of the story. Thousands and thousands of years of the story of one family, and the impact they had on humanity. Leto II's Golden Path was brilliant in that it forced humans to learn that a supreme government or a leader cannot be trusted and ultimately can't be tolerated.
Freedom cannot be granted, it has to be taken.
Can you make a video on your thoughts about possible Dune's ending Frank Herbert planned? Really curious about how you see it happening
Read and speculate! I think all of us have it within ourselves to see where he could've gone.
@@colinpatterson6210 agreed, but I'd enjoy hearing IOIAF speculation on the subject (especially after Herbert and Anderson's Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune books, ugh) .
Brian Herbert's sequels - not all his work, mind you - but his sequels, concluding the Dune saga, were a joke, reflecting a rudimentary understanding of his father's message and fan fiction at best. The ultimate villain - Omnius - was a thinking machine, completely misunderstanding Frank Herbert's point about the danger of machines (he was not so concerned about AI as he wasthe- man-in-control-of-AI) and Brian also FLOORED the gas on the gholas, creating ridiculous reincarnations of Leto, Paul, Jessica, and Vladimir Harkonnen, to name a FEW.
From what we can glean from Frank Herbert's lectures, earlier books, etc. It's safe to say that his concluding book would be very different. I always imagined the Great Enemy the Honored Matres were fleeing back to known space from was a human settlement controlling thinking machines that were able to predict human behavior with such statistical certainty, they had technological prescience (unlike the biological quasi-spiritual presiscience of Paul, Leto et al). Sheeanna and her Atreides descendants having the precious no-genes created by Leto II in his Golden Path would be the obvious foil to this adversary. To reiterate one of Frank Herbert's earlier points, to know with complete certainty is to take away the surprise, the disappointment, the point of it all, and is a death unto itself, and so I'd imagine it involves the characters -physically or thematically - rejecting any kind of prescience in favor of the joy of 'not knowing' how things will play out, even if - by doing so - you could get everything you wanted in life.
One variable to contend with is Daniel and Marty, which Herbert hinted were evolved tleilaxu face dancers. I kind of always had a bit of a "battlestar galactica' red-dress-Six mindset about those two, that while they /may/ have originated as tleilaxu face dancers, basically they were from an omnipotent alien race where time and space had no meaning and they were observing humanity, there to narrate and highlight points about living, leaders, and the likes.
Those are broad strokes. Herbert really does repeat a lot of his themes, so while the lack of a narrative-end is /a little/ sad, it's safe to say a concluding chapter to the saga would reiterate much of what he's already said: be careful of charismatic leaders, embrace the chaos, it is better to live in a universe of unknowns, etc. etc.
Hope that is an interesting read.
@@dante6985 yes technological prescience...all that work and sacrifice that was letos life...undone by “machines made in the likeness of man”
@@dante6985 Great!! I always felt myself that mankind was the Enemy, its own worst enemy, and that Leto II had known that.
However, I am not so sure about Daniel and Marty being Face Dancers. I always felt that this was the label the characters attach to these two because it comes closest to what they think they are; yet they ulrimately have no concept of describing who or what they truly are. Daniel and Marty do not really exist "within" the Dune Universe, but outside of it. I like the interpretation that these two are actually representations of Frank Herbert and his wife Beverly - trhe creators of the book and the characters within it. How would an author appear to the characters in their books if they could see them? As infinitely changing and morphing into the characters they create. And the Face Dancers are bred with a view to changing their physical form. So perhaps it's not so far from the mark that if a character from the Dune books meets their creator(s), they will think that they are Face Dancers.
Dude, I love your channel. The content that you discuss is terrific, but it's your passion and presentation that make it. Thanks.
The great irony of it all is that Frank Herbert, like all of his characters, is but another human and "leader" that ultimately must be taken with a grain of salt.
I think that's he's aware of this and the god emperor kind of embodies this duality. He's the perfect leader of men but he's also not a man etc.
Who does he lead?
I really enjoy your videos. You don't put any fluff in it and you explain the history really clearly.
Quick correction, he meant sharing in spice orgies through their collective memory experience. So basically, as children, they knew of the spice orgies and what exactly goes down during those events. Something that no child was expected to know. That was the source of his shock and wonder.
true
I think I've expressed this before, but you do a really good job of discussing these books. Everytime I get into a new property the first thing I do is go look for theory vids, thematic discussions, online forums etc. There isn't much of that for Dune, at least not as much as there _should_ be. Still, you do a really good job of satisfying that desire for extra content.
I cant wait for your God Emperor vid.
Wiil you do the expanded universe?
Paweł Szczęsny hope so. I enjoyed Hunters and Sandworms of Dune as well as the Machine Crusade books.
Please god, no.
Please do the machine crusades
mpalfadel2008 The most illogical story involving the dumbest artificial intelligent ever created lol
In the last Dune talk he said that first of all he wanted to finish with the original six books, but I have the feeling that he will do it, and those who consider themselves as orthodox and more faithfull tan anyone will have to keep their mouths shut.
Here in 2023
Quinn, your ability to clearly breakdown this phenomenal story is great.
I discovered your videos after watching Dune part 1.
Keep being great !!!
I always thought that the great enemy was that he always saw an end to visible humanity with blind spots caused by prescience that felt non human so he created invisible humanity
You’re a talented speaker sir! Dune is one of the most fascinating if not complicated sci-fi epic ever and it comes through in your videos! Truly Well done👍👍
Heretics and Chapterhouse are my favorites!
The Brian Herbert works, I couldn't get through them. They just made me sad. Like terrible fanfiction.
Todd Gregory-Gibbs They have good points. I think they could be fashioned into a decent script by a good writer. @ least they bring some kind of conclusion to the Dune saga.
@@No-hf5xb The Fake Planet. Good plot point. The baby Tleilaxu. Synchony. Admittedly it needs fine tuning but I think u could get a movie or two out of those books.
@@cjhepburn7406 we already have Matrix trilogy. no need for more of that with subpar plot on top of that.
@@cjhepburn7406 The conclusion is nonsensical and has nothing to do with what Frank Herbert would have written.
You should totally do more rambling recordings such as this, i find your opinions not only on DUNE but society, science, philosophy to be really insightful.
At the end of your ultimate guide I was struggling to see the full picture so one thank you for this video and two thank you for being a stand-up person. I think you're very wise man and I thank you for your work on this little project.
The occasional breaking of your voice is endearing.
Loving your content.
Is there any world/universe building author today that can compare to dune or middle earth by Tolkien? To some degree star trek and star wars can be included. I feel like these worlds are sooo vast that any scifi or fantasy written today would struggle to not be accused of copying from one of these
Also just wanted to say I am really loving all your vids, not just the Dune ones. And your voice acting is really awesome dude. Awesome and we appreciate your work dude.
I wanted to thank you for your videos. Thanks to your videos I have started listening to the dune series.
First, God emporer of dune tells of the 4000 year reign of Leto, his meeting of the women he actually falls in love with, the Duncan Idaho golems, the different ways Leto controls the universe, how he dies in a fall from a bridge on the way to his annual festival and lands in the river below and falls apart into sandtrout. Talks about the Ixian devices he uses to copy down his thoughts( but denies use of this type of device to everyone else in universe). The book does take place over just a short time, but the backstory info goes back over 5000 years, even before Leto himself was born on dune. Explains much but opens even more questions....
the books of Dune still effect me to this day....every thought...every action...i feel Dune in my bones.
I just realised that the Faceless men in GoT are kind of similar to the Face Dancers.
Been watching your videos for a while, you’re doing humanity a great service!
"I see plans within plans."
I'm glad I stumbled across your channel. I just watched dune 2021 again for the like 5th time and wanted more lore and found myself watching your stuff. I think your explanations are great and your opinions are on point. Also I am finding that I love Dune lore. I havent read the books and honestly, I probably never will because I am a soft brained individual, but I will eat up the videos and movies and maybe just maybe one day, the audio books haha.
All memories up to the time of conception are passed to the embryo , so how could he experience being murdered ?
IDK, a memory of being raped by a woman, being killed during ejaculation?
I often thought the same.
He could experience it only being the ones who delivered or viewed death.
@@brianmead7556 hmmm plausible.
I was just reading Dune God Emperor last week and Leto II says that his Ixian devices read his thoughts. So when Nayla blows up the bridge he turned on the Ixian device telepathically and recorded what he could before his death.
You can tell the difference between Frank and Brian’s writing BUT House Atreides is a really good book!
As an anarchist, the story of Dune is extremely appealing; I'm looking forward to being able to read them
No god emperors, no masters 😅
You cruised over the lesson of mixing religion with government.
Check out my video titled philosophy of Dune
I think worship of a leader or government is essentially the same thing. Worshipping a leader or ideology will lead to this. Whether its a religion, communism, nation. Its the centralisation of power thats the issue.
Ok I never knew Dune was a book never the less a series until utube and I thank all of you who have made video's and who have educated me about all of this subject thank you all
I love Dune I have several sons, and one of my son's middle names is Leto. I always tell people "Leto, like from Frank Herbert's Dune. Not Leto the sun god from Fullmetal Alchemist."