Dune Lore: The Worlds on The Edge of The Empire, Tleilax & IX
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- Опубліковано 3 січ 2021
- If you haven’t seen my previous videos on the Ixians and the Tleilaxu then you can find them in a playlist in the description of this video. In this video, we will discuss some of the ideas and philosophies that Frank Herbert attempted to explore with his creation of these two groups. To understand we have to go back thousands of years in the Dune Universe’s Timeline.
In the 10,000 years prior to the opening of Dune humankind had for the large part maintained the basic tenants of the Butlerian Jihad. Open use of computing technology carried significant social and legal consequences. The official punishment for those found to be in possession of, or to have constructed such technology is death. As a result various groups formed throughout the empire. New technologies were created to replace the jobs once done by AI. The most well-known and significant of these technological innovators in the Dune series are of course the Tleilaxu also known as the Bene Tleilax and the Ixians. Both groups blur the lines of what is generally thought to be accepted based on the teachings of the orange catholic bible, which came about after the Butlerian Jihad and has had significant influence over the course of humanity since. It stated “Thou Shalt Not Make a Machine in the Likeness of The Human mind” among other things.
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Paul: I will destroy the Guild by destroying the spice.
Tleilax: We will destroy the Guild by creating more spice.
@Fubar AlAlkbar IX: Nah we will do you one better. We will make ships that do not require one of their navigators. We will take out their monopoly on space travel in one move.
@@stevengreen9536 The Ixians did produce space ships that did not require Navigators. but the Guild sabotaged them so that no one would trust them.
@@RoomersToTheContrary Well in the books it seems the navigators wasted their time anyway. 😛
@@RoomersToTheContrary Leto 2 made sure humanity will never need spice to survive again
None of humans who returned cared much for the guild , they all used tech to navigate
@@cedriceric9730Spice is a metaphor, but not the central theme of Dune. Arrakis comes from the Arab word الراقص ar-rāqiṣ, meaning "the dancer," originally a name for the star Mu Draconis. Dune is essentially about time travel as the interaction and transformation of information from the past, present, and future. The Tleilaxu are virtually immortal as they create gholas of themselves that are reawakened with their memories whenever the old body dies. So no need for spice to extend life.
The hunter-seeker Paul defeated in the first book was not AI, it was controlled remotely by a Harkonnen agent they found later.
@@r3l4x69 Indeed, and the Baron even expected the hunter seeker to fail. It’s main purpose was to shake up Hawat, and make him doubt himself. A feint within a feint, really.
The agent sets the hunter-seeker in play but once initiated it acts independently or semi independently.
@@stevenredpath9332It's literally remote controlled. It is specifically stated in the book that the operator had to be VERY close to control it. Hence why they found a Harkonnen agent literally sealed up in a wall near Paul's quarters. The hunter seeker's weakness was that the operator could only truly see physical movement. Not thermal imaging, or biometric readings. Just a simple readout showing movement in a small area.
There are no autonomous machines whatsoever in the Herbert Dune-iverse.
True
@@stevenredpath9332 It's stated in the book that the camera the operator used to steer it was partly occluded by the hunter-seeker's suspensor field.
Interesting, in the Duneverse considering how space travel works you really wouldn't have a geographic shape to the Empire. It wouldn't really have a core, and fringe worlds, and borders like most galactic empires. The Guild just jumps where ever they want so you mainly just have frequently traveled planets, and non frequently traveled planets. The frequently traveled ones would feel like 'core' worlds and the non frequently traveled ones would feel like 'fringe' worlds, even though they could be right next to each other.
I think you could argue that spice-based foldspace travel night only be attainable for the very wealthy. Poorer groups works still need to travel conventionally.
Between the David Lynch film, the six core novels and Willis McNelly's Dune Encyclopedia, I've never been entirely clear as to whether the FTL travel in Dune is an instantaneous jump (the Lynch film, certain mentions in the books) or a translation through all places in between along a safely mapped out route. Clearly from the fact that we have a Scattering, the old empire had its astrographic boundaries.
@@Ensign_Cthulhu I'm with you on that! From the books I imagine that it is kind of both, like they have to travel a route through space because dodging asteroids and stars, yet the journey along that route seems nigh instantaneous. Unfortunately I really, really liked the way the Lynch movie portrayed it better as a basically a spice derived psychic jump power that pulls the whole ship, I find that much more interesting and fits in perfectly with the unknown powers of the spice.
It is basically instant. The ships use holtzman fields to bend and fold space. The navigators are needed to calculate how you need to fold and bend space. Otherwise you could just pop out anywhere which happens
Btw the thinking machines areny ixian I do not get where he gets thats from. Its the old thinking machines returning. It is basically spelled out in the series in several books. Mankind must become more than a machine
@@aafree6221 Interesting, when I look at it that way I see the Navigator's prescience less like dodging asteroids and stars, and more like doing a complicated math problem then looking into the future to see if you got it right, if you did then you enter it into the machine and hit the button.
"thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of the humanmind" people dont realize how intense this actually is
Why [very reasonable tone] didn't they use the 3 Laws of Robotics? Then, no problem.
mind humankinds mind , thinking machines,..like a calculator or a coffee maker
whilst watching on a computer. I know
@@veralenora7368 The laws of robotics and the whole Foundation series were written by Asimov to show how such constrictions on AI wouldn't work.
What if it isn't as far off as you think?
The Dune series has so many interesting facets to its universe. I love all the factions and the combination of themes.
After reading it, I changed so much about how I see and live life!
The Ixians and the Tleilaxu are always the more interesting parties in Dune I noticed that they were frequently mentioned in Dune fan fiction that was kicking around a few years back some of it was actually not too bad. The Ixian stuff tended towards cyberpunk whilst the Tleilaxu stories were more body horror stories.
They're "more interesting" because they're the only non-human factions. Navigators and Mentats toe the line, but these two are deviants that are becoming kind of alien. The whole point of the series is to explore what it means to be human, how we shape our environment, how that environment shapes out conflicts, etc.
The ixians are clan skryre while the tleilaxu are clan moulder lol
People often overlook "thou shalt not disfigure the soul" for "thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind". The tleilaxu and xiians chose their own heresies.
Excellent point
Bingo
Honestly, I've always hated the "just because we can, doesn't mean we should" adage. It's ultimately irrelevant, because as soon as we can, someone *will.*
So perhaps the better question is, "just because we inevitably will, how do we deal with the consequences?"
I think that a lot of sci-fi stories put the question more mildly - is the humanity _prepared_ for such a technology?
@@CZpersi I doubt humanity has been prepared for anything we've discovered going all the way back to fire. We just roll with the hits really well. Usually. Sometimes we die.
@@derekburge5294 Exactly. And most tech is doomed to be used for war at some point, so with every new tech at least someone will always die.
@@Randleray While true, our wars have also gotten... Not better, but not nearly as destructive to non-combatants as it was even 50 years ago. That's an improvement. And for better or worse, our energy generation capability has gotten to the point where it can be immensely destructive if misused and that trend is unlikely to change.
@@Randleray "Most technologies are doomed to be used for war..."
... and porn. Our innovations would not be the same without it. And most sci-fi writers actually failed to notice that.
The hunter seeker in the first book was controlled manually, from what I recall.
I first read Dune in grade school, I'm 55 and have been hooked all my life. I love your analysis!
Crazy how deep the lore is with Dune. Its on par with LOTR.
40K even
@@thesorrow4664 40k is nowhere near Dune and LOTR, they are way more sophisticated and innovative, even genre-defining.
Dune easily surpasses LOTR.
Interestingly, Arthur C. Clarke had exactly the same opinion. In his own words: "It (Dune) is unique. I know nothing comparable to it, other than the Lord Of The Rings".
@@ThaUltimateHunter LOTR and Dune are better than 40k, but saying that 40k lore is shit... With all due respect you are a little bit delusional
The pursuit of technology has lot of similarities to the pursuit of power. Left unchecked it can consume you, both figuratively and literally. Abandon it, and soon you will fall victim to those that haven't. And be in turn consumed by them. What is the proper way then? Often, not even the Wise can tell...
pusuit of technology is literally pursuit of power. pursuit of money, pursuit of superior design, superior advantage.
@@JackJackKcajify not necessarily so. Pursuit of technology can be (like pursuit of knowledge) for its own sake. And just as fanatical and single minded, without any pragmaticism in mind.
The third way is to exit the Game - take a Heighliner to Tupile or another world outside the Imperium.
I hope the new Dune movie is a hit. I’d love to see all of Herbert’s books done.
Even if they went a Game of Thrones route.
Someone, plz just make it happen
Well if they went the GoT route, they’d start off great then get sort of weird, but in the end it’d be rushed and unfulfilling.
@@bushmaster6894 You just need to know when to exit - given, it is hard to know that in advance. At least a hoped for a 'good' ending in GoT until the first episode of S8... but then again I hate to leave series open just because the directors are assholes.
I don't think book 4+ can be adapted into film or at least not for a big audience it is way to trippy
@@mrnice4434 They surely could... but not one single person would give a budget for them in Hollywood, because they are as you said not for the broad audence and thus wont ever pay back any budget even if the budget would be less than $50... sadly.
The books kinda got the Game of thrones route, with the later addition being bad fanfictions with an official stamp on it...
I don't think it will be good, i don't think you can adapt Dune to a film successfully
It is indeed how we use technology that can lead to irreversible destruction...
HEY ALEXA ORDER ME SOME STEAMPUNK SWIMMING GOGGLES
WWI aviator goggles is what you are really looking for
Interestingly enough, it is the Ixian and Tleilaxu technology that takes over in the last book. An Ixian no-ship becomes a last stand of humanity and Tleilaxu face-dancers turn out to be mysterious omnipotent, transdimensional beings.
That episode of Star Trek is one of my favorites, btw.
I love seeing new Quinn videos! 2021 is starting off well
9 people do not realize that Fear is the Mindkiller....
Or that the sleeper has awakened apparently.
You've inspired me to re-read the series.
Every episode blows my mind. This is arguably the most amazing and well fleshed out universe in fiction, presented and explained beautifully.
You really have a talent for narration.
He's been doing it for a long time as well.
I actually really enjoy when you do voices on readings! Love these kinds of videos and happy to see you always posting! Hope you're havin a good new year
"I don't think you're giving us our due credit. Our scientists have done things which nobody's ever done before..."
"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should. "
Just wanted to say how much I enjoy your videos. As a long time sci-fi/fantasy reader who has read the original Dune series multiple times I still learn so much from watching your videos. Your attention to detail and thoroughness of your research is amazing. Keep it up. I need to see if you've talked about the Hyperion series. That was always of favorite.
Was just wondering when you were going to continue with the Dune lore. Now I’m happy 😊
Hey man, i discovered your channel recently and really love it. Videos on Dune are really good. Keep it up! Much love from Halifax, Canada.
Love your presentations! These are so deep with content I need to watch a couple of times. Great narration, nice art choice, just really super! Thanks so much
Finally! Some good ol' Quinn's Ideas!
I'm currently listening to the german Dune Audiobooks and I have to admit that I enjoy your videos more than the books ...
Dune in german was outlawed during the jihad. Don't answer your door
This was a great video. Thank you for your content & hard work. You are appreciated.
I got to say thank you Quinn, you are my official go to Dune, and A Song of Ice and Fire let's not forget about that as well. But you are my go-to. I recently bought the six Dune books and I am currently a few chapters into the first.
I remember the movie and the first book back when I was in junior high, but when I saw you making videos it reignited my interest. So I just want to thank you for your time and effort you do amazing content and I'm always looking forward to a new video thank you very much sir
I really enjoy your Dune content. I just found your channel today . Keep up the great work! This makes the world better . Brains are being USED here ! Yaay! .
Love these. Why i first subbed. All the great artwork and outlines
The 1987 TNG episode you are referring to was called “The Arsenal Of Freedom”
One of my favorite episodes, too.
Thank you for the discourse - always good food for thought
quality, thoughtful work.
“Just because we can doesn’t the mean we should”
“If we did things your way then we would have never picked the rocks”
Excellent video! Thank you Quinn!
yassss. your vids inspired me to keep reading beyond the first book. currently halfway through God Emperor
Concerning the Tleilaxu, I think there are more "castes". The Masters were just a handful few. Below them you have Administrators, Labourers and Serfs.
I'd also add the fact that the Honoured Martres were not just descended from Fish Speakers and Bene Gesserit, but from Tleilaxu women (before they've undergone the chemical lobotomisation) as well.
Hey man. Great channel! Your videos made me curious enough to buy the first book and I really liked it. I'm looking forward to the movie even more now! Greetings from Argentina.
Spot on analysis as per usual.
Brilliant content as always.
Great lore video, I have always been interested in IX.
Can´t wait for your Chapterhouse video, bud!
Good video. Nice to see Organism again.
The end was really funny thanks Quinn
Another awesome video!
Another great video!!
" (banter) many machines on ix ... new machines...(business) I see plans within plans... "
I like an evolved being who has little time for banter.
@@MrMusicbyMartin ...i am ....a dyer wolf, prey stalking , lethal prowler.
Haha this guy is pretty funny. Thanks for the hardcore info on the Dune universe. I always enjoy your videos.
Bene Tleilax are my favourite Dune faction. I think.
Thanks for the video!
Of course, this presupposes we can agree as to what the right way IS. I'm a unapologetic Transhumanist - I want to change, to become more. I want to see six colors into the infra-red, hear radio waves, walk without a suit on the surface of the moon. These capabilities are highly unlikely to become possible in my lifetime, but that doesn't stop me working towards them.
But I perfectly understand that these ideas which enthrall me horrify some others. If there is to be a line between human and not, a point past which we do not go, who is to draw it? And how enforce it?
I'll paraphrase CS Lewis, what is important isn't the physical form or abilities, but the mind. In Out of the Silent Planet, a human scientist wants to spread humanity to Mars and eventually all other worlds. Exterminating or supplanting the intelligent life already there. When it is explained to him that humans would have to be extensively altered to comfortably live on those worlds he says he does not care about the shape of the body, only the mind. It is then explained to him that all intelligent life everywhere has the same type of mind, goals, feeling, spirit ect. At best he wants to commit fratricide on top of genocide.
@@kyle857 It's a fair point, and perfectly fits Lewis' philosophy. But is it practical? Can a being that can live comfortably on Mars as it is today and a human of earth truly have enough in common to make fellowship a possibility?
It isn't ridiculous to assume that your dream can come true, so I wish you a long life.
Great video !
I'm just curious, I loved the ultimate guide to dune videos. Will you be making ones for the last three books?
Nice analysis Q !
Bringing a smile and taking me away errytime!!!!!
Huge fan, keep it up buddy
Nice upload! Keep it up!
Love your videos. Good lockdown entertainment. Keep up the songs of spice and fire. 🏴🎱🐙
Ix and Tleilax are so cool, I really wish we got to see more of them in the earlier books. It's gonna be years if ever until we see them in movie or tv show form. Probably never, sadly, with the whole HBO max thing.
awesome video Quinn. When's your Chapterhouse Dune Guide video coming out? I started Dune after I found your channel and am currently on Children of Dune.
I want to thank you for posting immediate credit to the artwork. A lot of concept art work is just sitting in hard drives because the projects didn’t go that direction. As some people have sketchbooks and such filling a case, a buddy of mine has a shelf filled with hard drives filled with beautiful yet unused artwork.
Leto II: "Things we do without thinking - there's the real danger. Look at how long you walked across this desert without your face mask."
Karens and anti-maskers: *Hmmm. Interesting.*
Cheers for this
There is an episode of Babylon 5 with a similar premise to the star trek episode mentioned. Almost exactly the same actually haha
Yes, the concept has been explored a lot in science fiction and fantasy as there is something thought provoking and terrifying in man having a hand in his own destruction by making something in his own image, or in some ironic twist, wrecking his civilization by inventing something meant to save it that ends up being its bane. Look at all the real world weapon inventors that created something thinking it would be so terrible that it would end the lunacy of war, but all it did was make war even worse, like the person who inflicted "Keeping Up With the Kardashians" upon humanity...lol.
There is similar episode in Stargate Universe, they also created a thinking machine to defeat all their enemies as well! Only to have them wipe them out any one that would wonder in their Vicinity! They remain dormant till you come close to them, then they attack ay all cost till you are destroyed!
Also in Halo “The Ghost of Onyx” book, there was also a weapon system that became more powerful after you defeat the Previous drones, they defeated both the Human and Covenant Fleets!
Would love to find out what actually happen Vorian Atreides, after he left the empire, and went into deep space!
How long did he actually survive, or did he die at all, remember he feigned aging, after the life extension process, after defeating the thinking machines! He color his hair, to seem as if he aged like everyone else, so we really do not know what became of him!
In the Dune Encyclopedia, there is the legend of the Ampoliros, a pre-guild ship traveling the universe at near-light speed forever, the crew still alive because of the time dilation, and then the entry on Aurelius Venport says his ship disappeared during the first coordinated test of the space-folding drives, implying that he might still be wandering the universe as well.
@@keepinmahprivacy9754 Nice to hear!
if you're doing lovecraftian horror,why not do Dracula next,it's gothic horror,something you'll love
I think Frankenstein would be something Quinn would really really love.
I love the new music!
You got the STNG episode wrong. It wasn’t war that killed the civilization. It was arms trade. They created the perfect weapon system, programmed to demonstrate it’s capabilities until a sale was made. It didn’t stop until they were all gone. It took Picard to figure out what the creators didn’t!
I think it's very kind of quinn to wait for his Chapterhouse video until i finish reading it :)
One of Your best videos. It was shock to me when Frank Herbert reveal axoloth tanks were modified women. But his son in The 1st prequel book was right to put Genesis of tleilaxu in slavers and organ harvesters.
This will be great content for the Dune Pen and Paper RPG when its out - are you buying this Quinn? BEAUTIFUL Hardbacks.
Screw the Covid shot. What we need is Melange/spice. Melange coffee appeared in Germany centuries ago. Still exists today in Germany and France. Good video.
Quinn, could you do a segment about Jews in the Dune universe? They appear in the last two books and their existence is one of the interesting surprises of the later Dune lore.
Your videos are better than the original books!
I'm reading the first book now, but I'm already leaving the like and comment for Quinn.
Leto 2 said that without his interference the Ixians would already have created the prescient hunters. Perhaps Leto pushed this event back by redirecting their efforts towards the navigatorless ships, another form of prescient machines.
The question is not "if we can make something, should we?" but rather "what can we do with what we have" (new technologies come, wether you chose to have them or not). I see this philosophical question more as something that asks: "do you want to be effective in goals that are individual and hence likely to be destructive for communities, or do you use that efficiency of your tools to counter others who are efficient, so that natural ballance bay be preserved."
Those are the two extreme dirctions I got inspired to see from Herbert's books.
i was thinking all the things organism said....but i enjoy your videos ,so thanks,..i rally do want chapter house dune though
It really spoke to me when you said that only the weapons survived the two warring nations on an empty planet. I feel like that's extremely likely for earth if we're not careful. Eons down the line that exact scenario might ring true for us, after everything that we've been through, all they might find of us after we're gone.... are our weapons.
@Quinn's Ideas would you do a review of Parable of Sower/Parable of talents? I would love your thoughts and insights.
Come on bro, when will you release the Chapterhouse review?
I just finished Children of Dune and was wondering what videos of yours I can watch that won’t spoil anything from the next 3 books
It's very hard to spoil Frank Herberts Dune books. Even reading Frank Herberts Dune Books doesn't spoil them. Every time you re-read them you find something new, something different, another depth you hadn't seen before.
I watch a lot of these, but i have to say this narrator has a great voice.
Oh my God, he's using the voice!
Great !!!
Frank Herbert's vision is very current today when you regard the development of robots by companies such as Boston Dynamics and the development of AI-powered loitering killer drones as were recently used in the Nagorno-Karabach war. Will machines become our masters or will we stay on top? Herbert already thought of this in the 60s when computing was still primitive.
Hey Quinn can you please review the Five Star stories manga by Mamoru Nagano?
The Drukhari Haemonculus covens from Warhammer 40k remind me a lot of the tlailaxu.
The gentlemen from Nottingham seldom miss an opportunity to assimilate any half decent Sci Fi story or race into the 40K universe.
Great video. But seriously, where the Chapter house video? 😀
I swear I forgot about organism until I heard it's voice. That was hilarious
I wish you would narrate the books
We want Chapterhouse, it's true, but what about an Organism compilation video?
very good
I'd like to see one on Richese
pictures of Worm Leto always remind me of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now
What I wanna know is if McDonalds and KFC survived thousands of years into the future and if there are several franchises still in operation on Ix and Tleilax?!? I'm sure after a hard day's work cloning up a batch of gholas, a Tleilaxu might wanna grab a Big Mac or a Bucket of the Colonel's Original Recipe?!? Perhaps they even serve up the local delicacy with a KFC twist- Kentucky Fried SLIG!
LMAO
But were they on the fringe? They had worlds inside the empire, paid tribute and traded extensively within it. They were not on the fringe, they were at the heart of it all and considerable political forces who influenced everything.
2020 has been like Leto's Golden Path... I want out!
IXian: the orange catholic Bible is more of a list of strongly worded suggestions rather than prescriptions from a certain point of view... you like hunter seekers right?
The OC Bible is a specific book authored and editored by the Commission of Ecumenical Translators. It follows the theme of different religions and creeds being mashed together in somewhat unlikely manner in the far future - the Zen-Sunni believers for instance seem to blend Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam while the Orange Catholics would seem to be a mixture of the Protestant Orange orders and their traditional deadly enemies the Roman Catholics..
@@BenFrayle "...mashed together in somewhat unlikely manner..." I thought Zensunni a bit far out as well, but it does have precedent in our world with the Druze religion.
@@RobertWF42 Anything is possible given thousands of years and cultures being smashed together. Certain religious groups could band together as atheism (or agnosticism) became more popular, only to fall back into religion during the feudal era of the empire.
@@icarusfx there’s evidence religion (the all round idea not one in particular) is an evolutionary driver by virtue of it taking the behavior necessary to survive in a given area and making at the “Will of God “.
Brian Herbert explored this idea as he fleshed out Pardo in the House prequel trilogy, namely as he considered what would be necessary for the terraforming project to continue long after the first generation had died out.
Another example, and it’s scattered throughout the prequel portion of the saga is the evolution of beliefs of The Zensuni from prior to their enslavement to their flight to Dune and about a generation after (we see the entire ethnic group goal from pacifistic and unwilling to defend themselves to tribalistic and willing to kill for an insult).
Interestingly enough, immigration appears to also be both be a evolutionarily driver and connected to religion (although when you consider that you are literally leaving everything you know to go to a place you know nothing about in the hopes of something better, it’s understandable why religion would be attached to immigration), all this is to say:
Each world and certainly during the old empire would likely have its own religion started on the journey there (or shortly after arriving assuming that there was cryo-sleep) and likely a generation or two after arrival it would be a fully evolved system with region dependent sects occurring as needed.
I think the group that would have a degree of success when it came to spreading any religion beyond a world would be The Spacing Guild or any religion that lent itself to a merchant group that cause them to travel (regular immigration) between groups and worlds (over time it’s been adopted by trading partners)
All of this is to say: the fact a bunch of theologians hung out on ruined earth to come up with a “unified” religion was a worse idea than The ivory tower cogitators peace plan and it’s no wonder the crowd had a barbecue early on and why later Paul’s Jihad overturned it, it wasn’t grounded into The local environment or naturally evolved.
Murder is a sin and yet... we don't seem to mind it much at all. We punish it when it is convenient, we perform it when it is convenient. Only, in the latter case, we call it other names and paint it up in innocent seeming colors.
Why should we expect another people to hold another sin any more strictly than we hold murder?
Yes tng season one arsenal of freedom. One of the season highlights