I really think the system that men are the ones who want to have sex and women are the ones who give permission to sex really needs to retire. I’ve been in two relationships until now and both times I had the higher sex drive. Especially in my first relationship is was very difficult to come to terms with because society taught me that men are supposed to always want sex. And if they don’t want sex, it’s not because they have a lower sex drive, are stressed at work, tiered, not in the mood for it or anything else - it’s because they are not attracted to their partner. Oh boy. It was a mess.
am: True. "Desire discrepancy" can happen with either the man or the woman is the one that wants more sex than the other. I've heard both men and women complain about this. And, of course, it also happens in male male and female female relationships.
How can you call yourself a feminist if you don’t believe sex is a thing men do to women, defiling their innocence to slake their perverse desires? Next, you’re going to tell me women actually want babies!
Agreed I think it’s a symptom of this idea that society has really forced men and the idea of manhood into a tiny crummy box that’s really just crap for everyone.
@@dickiewongtk damn I'm sorry she has no heater and I hope she doesn't die of frostbite! you should probably check on her to make sure she's doing okay, humans aren't normally supposed to be that cold! unless you meant it metaphorically and I'm playing dumb, but I would never play dumb simply to misinterpret someone's words humorously
I remember someone insinuating that I was being sexually assaulted for doing something for my partner because he likes it and I didn't actively want to do it, but didn't mind it for that, so yeah I think authentic consent is a much better system and doesn't involve taking away people's autonomy to choose to do something
I am a sex neutral ace who has been sexually active. My consent is never gonna be enthusiastic because sex for me is like that concert of an artist i couldn't care less about, but my partner likes them, so i don't mind going with them to the concert once in a while and i even enjoy certain aspects of it while there, but i am never going to suggest going or be ok with going very often. So yeah, my consent will remain a " meh ok, nothing better to do right now anyway 🤷🏼♀️"
@@nessyness5447 exactly, I always think of ace people when enthusiastic consent comes up. In order to have a healthy relationship with a non-ace partner you basically have to have a sex life - it's very much a "must" for most non-ace people. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with engaging in that for the purpose of improving the relationship and making your partner happy, even if it isn't enthusiastic on your end. There's so many things I do for my partner that I'm not enthusiastic about but that I still do authentically simply because I care about them.
@@marjetacedilnik8622 eh I wouldn’t go off that either as most times I’ve not “felt like” I have when I have and thats a common trauma response (normalising the experience)
Never thought of comparing saying no to sex to saying no to other things in our lives. No wonder it's so difficult to say no in sexual situations, are lives have trained us to be amenable to the whims of others!!!! SUCH great insight and analysis, so simple an idea but makes so much sense!
@@DanFrederiksen sometimes you have a boss who asks you to work overtime, and you're tired, you want to go home, but you want your job and the possibility of a promotion, so you work overtime. sometimes you really hate a coworker, but you don't pick fights with them, even when they pick fights with you, because their family's in the management and if they say anything to the higher-ups, you won't get the pay-raise you need to save up for grad school. sometimes, some rando at a party won't stop flirting with you, and you don't want him to beat you up or follow you home later, so you smile at him and try out excuses until he gets bored and leaves you alone. sometimes he doesn't get bored. and he does follow you home. and you don't want him to beat you up so you let in and play nice. there are a lot of circumstances where people hold power over you and you kind of have to appease them or face some sort of violence, be it to your body or to your livelihood. women are often put in positions of making this choice, especially since they tend to make less money on average and be less physically intimidating. sometimes it's clear that a "no" won't be dangerous, and many women deny consent regularly. but many just kind of go along with things (and even convince themselves they like this turn of events) because it avoids a greater harm in that instance. the problem is when that appeasing instinct kicks in even as someone could be finding other ways out of the situation that won't hurt them as much.
@@DanFrederiksen "I know women are supposed to be unreasonable". I would say "I know men are supposed to be assholes and kind of dumb but come on you're overdoing it" but it's not all men, it's you. We're literally taught to please everyone and put the needs of others before our own from the moment we can talk, and then we have to endure people like you calling us unreasonable if we internalize it and have trouble saying no.
@@DanFrederiksen Karen pleases no one but that's on white/classe privilege, there's a little thing called intersectionality. And no, not every men make it so easy as you for women to say no to, being a sexist homophobic who doesn't seem to understand what "homosexual" means. (It's not an insult, it's a sexuality. Also Zac Efron is straight and Harry Styles idenfies as something else). But is not about being tempted by hotness of fame (?), and the "trouble saying no to" you mentioned seemed concearnimgly close to actual sexual desire, which would lead to consent. This whole thing about it not being normalized to say a plain no to things we don't want to do (but then again, your personal experience is probably tainted by you being a homophobic sexist jerk, women find it a lot easier to say no to guys like you in general (: ). Maybe it's someone one nice/ your fried/ boyfriend/ husband/ boss/ someone who is threatening your safety. But the main comment is about how it's not normal to say a plain no in general. "Do you want to hang out?" "No": that's not a common interaction between any to people, especially if they know and like each other. It's a lot more common to say you can't and make an excuse.
The fact that in my sex ed not once did they ever talk about consent 🥴 and I think that honestly really contributed to a lot of scenarios where I thought I couldn’t say no.
Same tho. I ended up, for a long time, viewing consent as something which I should get, not something I needed to give. My first girlfriend was bad with consent and I really could've used another source of understanding it, I ended up thinking of it only within a really specific version of the no means no model.
This is great as a physically disabled person in a gay relationship, who is ace(but bones). Sex isn't as easy as "is it bone time? I want bone time". It's a combo of questions like, "Am I physically able? Will I need care afterwards? Am I up for it emotionally? Etc etc". Sex isn't usually about me, it's about taking care of my partner's wants and needs. Whether I'm down to clown is usually determined by the roulette that is health. It's often not black or white either! Sex is often "let's see how it goes, I'm okay for now". Every couple/pair needs to figure out what communication style works for them! What I encourage for everyone though, is having a safe word that you can use outside of sexual circumstances as well. Being overwhelmed by something and using the safeword to indicate things aren't okay is a game changer!
Ah yes, the tricky combo of sex and disability. My partner has severe ME/CFS but we're both very sexually enthusiastic. In that sense, enthusiastic consent is pretty much the default, followed up nine times out of ten with "Eeeeeh, but we probably shouldn't..."
Being asexual, I always interpreted "enthusiastic consent" as enthusiasm for whatever reason I was consenting to the sex for. This video was really interesting, thank you!
Yeah as someone who's also Ace I'm fine with having sex in a relationship as long as there isnt pressure applied. I realized I was ace when while being stressed and having relationship tension I just couldn't get turned on... That relationship wasnt great though and consent was weird with them being good about some aspects and less so about others.
I think the wheel and the idea of authentic consent helped me too as an ace! I feel really uncomfortable having stuff done to me, and although I'm not enthusiastic I wouldn't mind doing other things, so realizing what quadrants applied to me, and that I don't need to force myself to feel something I can't feel was kind of nice!
I agree for all the reasons you mentioned that it doesn't have to be enthusiastic all of the time and can be not linked with desire, but it also should never be connected to fear or coercion!
I think the people who wrote it should probably analyse themselves a bit. But I also think it's interesting to think about whether these reasons would reallg mean there was no consent. For example, I've had sex before because I thought I owed it to people for being willing to date someone as ugly as me. I fully agree that this was not psychologically healthy on my end. But in no way does it say anything about the people I had sex with. It was not their duty to work out why I was saying yes, imo.
I think this defo links to the idea of consensual bad sex. Coercion is definitely present in the last one but the first two can be more ambiguous e.g. ‘i wanted to get rid of the aggression through positive consensual roughhousing’ or ‘i felt like i owed it to the person because i wanted to give them a good time before i went away for xx amount of time’.
Something that was really important for me when I had sex for the first time was that my boyfriend pushed me a little. I wasn't having sex because I was scared and after my first refusal instead of completely backing off (like the boyfriend I had beforehand) he encouraged me to try it, told me it would be okay and did various things to make me feel super safe. I'm really glad he did that because I was actually ready to have sex, I was just scared. I don't know how to fit that into consent, I think on paper many people would have said his pushing me was wrong. But that was the must validating and consensual relationship I've ever had. I can be someone who's scared of doing new things and I need a push
As someone who has been told by a few people, particularly my second partner, that my first serious and sexual relationship was wrong and that I's being exploited, even though I know this to be false, I empathise. Also, there's this really good quote from a play I saw recently that I think is useful to think about in these situations. A university professor had an affair with a student and when it had ended, the student told him, "It felt like it was happening from your point of view," to explain how she felt exploited. However the details sound to others, I did not feel like my first relationship happened purely from my partner's point of view. I felt like my reality was their concern, and I think that's a really important and powerful consideration.
You can convince someone without coercing them. You were scared of what it was going to be like and that makes sense considering how dangerous sex can be for women. As long as the sex took place in a safe and caring way it's likely fine as the main thing was that you werent hurt by the event and found it empowering.
I’m happy that worked for you but for me it would still feel like coercion or that my partner’s main goal was to have sex with me. Like no is no, I don’t need a push.
This is interesting to me because I had a sort of similar experience with my first sexual encounter, although for me I genuinely wasn’t ready but was gently convinced into it because I thought I should be ready. It wasn’t assault, I didn’t say no, but it really has made me think over the years about enthusiastic consent and what that looks like for me. Not discounting your experience AT ALL, I just think it’s a testament to how consent is probably different for each person and it should be talked about in a new relationship.
@@Alice-si8uz how is convincing different than coercion? Most of this comment section is giving guys the go ahead to cross boundaries and “convince” their girlfriends to have sex when they don’t want to. OPs experience is an exception, not the rule. Why was he so eager anyway? Is waiting and revisiting the conversation later too much for him? Lots of girls don’t know how to stand their ground unfortunately, so I don’t think OPs boyfriend’s behavior should be encouraged.
A bit of perspective on "no means no", from someone who is decidedly not young. Back in the dark ages, we had a horrible amount of good-girl/slut dichotomy. You may have heard the lady/diplomat joke, that ends "and a lady who says 'yes' is no lady". People actually thought that way, to a much greater degree than they do now. If "no" means no, they you shouldn't pressure people to say "no" when they mean 'maybe', or when they mean 'probably, but I want us to go through the usual social rituals first'.
That's really, interesting- like the song 'baby it's cold outside' they go through all the reasons why she has to go so she can be seen to be putting up a bit of a fight in an era where women couldnt just say 'yes'. We all should be fighting for womens sexual liberation, because the mindset that women cant just say 'yes' makes it hard to distinguish between when a 'no means no', or when a 'no means yes but I have to give some of a fight for presentation but really up for it' or a ' no, but now I am saying yes because I fear physical violence if I continue to say no'. And enthusiasm cant be the deciding factor because in the later example one may pretend enthusiasm as a defense mechanism to prevent further abuse or violence as a way of placating someone-specifically in threatening situation or abusive relationship. Alot to keep in mind for sure on how culture affects our thinking!
This just made me wonder whether if we're taught that we can't say "no" as children to actions our family members direct at us (e.g. kisses, hugs) affects our understanding of consent. What about general actions we don't wanna do but aren't allowed to voice our disagreement for? Interesting.
I know for me that made me resent and dislike public displays of affection while also never mentioning that to partners. I was and am fine sexually but feeling ill everytime someone wants to hold hands isn't great for the relationship. I'm still unlearning the hugs mean somene is presuming on me thing and part of that is saying get off me if someone hasn't asked. One good thing about covid no more uninvited hugs.
As someone who is super interested in attachment theory and childhood trauma, our feeling of freedom to say no as adults is *definitely* related to our childhood upbringing, in my opinion. It's incredibly common for people to grow up with adults who themselves have poor boundaries (mental, emotional, physical, resource, time, etc.) and transfer that onto their children.
@@silentlyjudgingyou I have a pretty big problem with being touched unexpectedly and also with PDAs. My previous partner would interpret the latter as me being ashamed of them, and I had to explain multiple times that it was actually nothing to do with them. I wish covid had made people stop touching me, but I'm blind and get grabbed by well-meaning strangers when I'm out of the house. My own aversions plus the fact that my partner is immuno-compromised makes this incredibly stressful.
I experience exclusively responsive desire, it's never spontaneous. It's just not something I think about on my own most of the time. This means that I'm not in the mood for sexual activity until it's already started for a little while. So I don't have enthusiastic consent at the start of sex because I don't feel the desire for a few minutes. I do know that I will most likely begin to have the desire so I will either respond to or instigate an encounter with that in mind. I also know that if the responsive desire does not happen after a few minutes as is usually does, I can then revoke consent. So I think authentic consent makes more sense to me.
I'm like this too! I try to remain receptive and open unless I'm certain I don't want anything to happen. I do struggle to initiate though as its just never on my mind, any tips for that?
@@harrietphipps4862 yeah I'm the same, I don't really initiate and I think at first my partner felt I wasn't interested because of that. But I think if you're honest with your partner about having only responsive desire that helps, so they know that you're not just faking it when they want to have sex.
Sounds like you may be a reciprosexual, maybe? Tho that is more on the grounds of sexual attraction than sexual desire. A reciprosexual is only capable of feeling sexual attraction for someone who is firstly attracted to them. It could be a varation of it, if it only happens with the desire and not the attraction itself
Another thing I feel enthusiastic consent misses out on is that many people find that arousal builds AFTER sexual activity/foreplay begins and not before. I believe it’s called reactive sexuality. I rarely find myself randomly in the mood, so using the enthusiastic consent model I’d never truly “consent” to sex. However I find that a lot of the time, just by starting activities the arousal comes. Of course, sometimes it doesn’t, and I state this, after which the activity promptly stops.
Yeah but I also think sometimes ppl jump the gun so to speak bc asking someone if they want to have sex/any sexual activity before anything happens is a little premature unless you're just doing a spontaneous hookup right there and then where time is limited.
I was recently in a situation where I explained that I don't always verbalise a lot during sex or play. To the other person it may have seemed like I was unenthusiastic or something was wrong, but I was focusing on the physical sensation. So I think "enthusiastic" can sound as though you literally have to sound as if you're buzzing and are projecting that to the other person(s), which is quite a lot for some people who may be depressed or have communication difficulties.
Or on the autism spectrum . I don't even know what enthusiastic looks like...I will tell them if I'm interested, or if I'm willing, and expect the same of them .
My past partner would do this. He was incredibly quite and would get lost icompatibility. Not a bad thing at all. But I appreciated more vocality so. It's just a matter of different needs, preferences, and compatibilities.
I feel like the concept of “authentic consent” basically takes us round in a circle. The reason we moved away from concepts like “no means no” towards “yes means yes” was precisely because we were trying to create a concept of what authentic consent is (since it’s still so hard for some people to grasp apparently). I guess I’m trying to say that authentic consent was already the question we were trying to answer with concepts like enthusiastic consent. The points as to why it’s insufficient were really good and I totally agree. I just wonder if we can encapsulate the concepts of what makes consent authentic into a marketable package, for lack of a better term. If someone was trying to ask you if you think a signal they’re getting is consent it’s easy to ask questions like “Is it an enthusiastic yes?” but asking “Is it an authentic yes” is a lot harder to interpret correctly. As you say though, it’s impossible to create a generalised rule for consent since there are so many different factors at play. Maybe it makes more sense to have authentic consent be a framework for educating people on safe sex and the term serves as a reminder of all the teachings rather the term itself being the teaching, if that makes sense.
stars:: There are laws involved here Careers can be ruined, families can be broken up, and 0people can even end up in prison and, at least in the USA, as lifetie carriers of sex offender cards, which make normal life impossible, if they are considered to have had non-consensual sex. Given the stakes, we have to have very clear rules about what is and is not legal consent. within that, opinions can vary as to what is the right kind of consent. But if somebody said yes just because they did not want to seem to be rude, well, that is still consent, and it/s kinda on them if they didn't like it. But know should always mean no.
@@dickiewongtk yeah a lot of lefties call work "wage slavery" (and actually Republicans in the U.S. used this term first a while ago, believe it or not), so I get your point
The people violating consent know when it’s not authentic, & they don’t care. It’s good for people to learn about these different forms of consent, so that they can understand their own feelings, expose predators, & support survivors. For people who actually care about the consent of their partner, in the end you just need to be someone they can feel safe denying, then you can trust them when they say “yes.”
As someone who identifies on the asexual spectrum I love the idea of authentic consent! Because sometimes I'll consent even though I don't feel the desire but want to participate for my partner
@@heliosho my partner always worries that I don't really want it when we do participate but I never participate when I really don't feel like it! And then like Hannah talked about we talk about like "I'm willing to participate in this but not this right now" it's all about communication and so I don't really feel bad for saying yes when I'm not really feeling desire because my partner doesn't pressure me to participate
Growing up with the message that I couldn’t say no or set boundaries with my parents or the adults in my life most definitely carried onto my sexual experiences. I always thought I needed to “just get through it,” even if I did try and say no. I’m slowly learning in regular life to say no and keep boundaries I want. It’s hard! Whilst getting into bdsm I’ve learned how critical communication and consent is and how I need to be able to be comfortable to say no in order to engage in those activities. It’s a very interesting learning process. I think bdsm can be a very helpful healing tool when done properly.
Bdsm helped me a lot with verbalizing clearly what i want and what i dont. But u have to have a trusted partner! If u are already easy to influence/have problems setting boundaries and than get to a toxic/abusive partner, bdsm can be time bomb.
Sometimes it's actually just hard to give an enthusiastic consent. I was on a date with this guy I've crushing on for so long, and at one point he asked to kiss me. I'm inexperienced, haven't had a real relationship yet (I'm a young adult btw) and romantic situations make me very nervous and very shy and even tho I wanted him to kiss me, I couldn't bring myself to verbally ask him to do it
@@wotchermystic2335 yeah as long as its some kind of affirmative response... they could even explain afterwards that giving permission like that is difficult for them and find some way to have a yes and no for the relationship...
As a sex-pos ace person this conversation resonates so much with me and some of my uncomfortablities surrounding sex. I also love how inclusive you are of ace people in your videos, we aren't usually included in these conversations because people think we're all celibate or just don't know we exist. Love your videos 💕
I'm sry, & I am in no way being sarcastic,comical, or anything else like that, I'm genuinely asking because I do not know but want to know...what exactly do you mean by "sex-pos ace person"? What does this mean?
@@marioncaffroy7045 hi I'm also a sex postive ace person so I hope I can answer. At the bare minimum, asexual people experience no sexual attraction (some people feel no sexual feelings at all in any sense and some people can see feel turned on and everything in between). Just because you don't experience sexual attraction, doesn't mean you can't have sex. You might like how it feels, it might make you feel closer to a partner, it might be something you do for someone else because you know they like it. There can be a million other reasons. Sex pos ace people are asexuals that can, do, or are willing to have sex. Asexuality is a spectrum, so I hope I condensed it enough while still being understandable! (Edit: there are different forms of asexuality where some people (like demi sexuals) do experience sexual attraction so "bare minimum" is not the correct set of words. It was used to simplify language and give a base definition)
Yes! As an ace person, Everytime I mention I'm on the asexual spectrum people just assume I don't want sex or have no sex drive which isn't true at all. And being ace makes relationships and sex so much more confusing and complex, I wish there was more conversations about this!
@@zeldamage001 I think you got asexual wrong. She didn't say she was celibate. Asexual people have sex but for one reason or another they are not sexually motivated.
As someone who has dealt with often severe depression for much of my life, I've never been a fan of the "enthusiastic" consent model. There have been times in my life where I couldn't muster "enthusiasm" for anything but I still wanted to have sex. My consent given then was no less real simply because my brain chemicals were out of whack.
If you are a guy, it doesn't matter. Under the current narrative, you cannot be roped. As a guy, you are the responsible party when having s3x. If both people are drunk, the man has roped the woman. Your feelings and wants are irrelevant. Even with the utmost care for a partner, you could rope them if you don't follow all the rules, or she decides to revoke consent later.
This is such a great take on consent that doesn't just narrow it down to enthusiastic consent. You're really helping relieve anxiety around consent in a sexual context so thank you 💖
I appreciate this new framework of authentic consent and i would further it to call it authentic AND INFORMED consent. whether it's information being withheld from a partner, certain levels of sobriety, or even lack of education about sex and consent itself, I do think there are situations where someone could give authentic consent but might not be giving fully informed consent
Love this addition, and yes, I totally agree about the informed part. I was reading Ace by Angela Chen, and how there is a concept called "hermeneutical injustice" where someone can experience harm due to lack of knowledge that is systemic in nature. Her example was that of an asexual person who wasn't aware of the concept of asexuality and was under the impression that sex is as given in a relationship, which is a kind of lack of informed consent in not knowing that you don't have to have sexual attraction or have any form of sex.
@@KnickKnackPatty So how do you know, what another person doesn't know? So you date a person and have a relationship and at the end it turns out that person was asexual and was just 'going through the motion' because they wanted emotional connection with you and thought that sex was part of the parcel. Does that mean that you - under authentic and informed consent - committed sexual assault / rape? If so, should you be put on trial and go to jail for it?
@@Der_Thrombozyt Hmmmm. That's a hard question. Thanks for asking, since it's got me thinking. From my personal perspective， that's a complex question. I think , you can consent at the time and have sex because you feel like you should (even if you're going through the motions), and regret having done it later or mourn the fact that you didn't know you have to. If you're feeling pressured and don't speak up about it, there is the beginnings of the gray area - is it consent? Maybe? Depending on what model you're using? Who's responsibility is it to make sure everyone is safe, informed, comfortable - I'd hope/argue that everyone plays a role: from yourself to look up on the internet or ask around when you're not comfortable, with someone you care about, with the people who raise you, the education system, etc but a lot of those people or resources don't teach you about these things... And that's where videos like this is a good start I've sent this video to a few friends to start the conversation going, especially those who aren't ace, but are beginning to understand some of that experience through me. But the ace spectrum is wide, and like this video says, there are hundreds of different reasons to have sex. Not all aces are sex repulsed. And there is a difference between being sexually attracted to someone, deciding to have sex with them, and having a high libido/sex drive. Is it rape? It could definitely feel like rape if you're having unwanted sex, you feel coerced, you feel like you have no other choice etc... Would this be able to be proven in court? Most likely not (at least not in the country I'm in, or any that I'd know of), since ignorance usually isn't a good defence for a lot of types of cases.
@@Der_ThrombozytI realized there's more of your questions I didn't answer 😅 How do you know what another person doesn't know? You ask! Especially around sex, in my experience, you talk about it , expectations, and boundaries, before you approach anything physical. For some people, that might be abundantly cautious and not what they want to do, but for me, it's been integral to feeling safe. Having been in an ace-allo (asexual - allosexual where allosexual refers to anyone who does feel sexual attraction) relationship (but knowing and fully disclosing I am ace and what that means from the get go) is different from people I've talked to where they're in a relationship and then find out they're ace. The process of bringing it up and navigating it is a tough one. There's often grief for not knowing, questioning in hindsight how valid that consent was, regret, uncertainty, anger, and doubt. And that's not just on the part of the person who found out they're ace, but also their partner. Then, there can be a lot of discussion, if they all feel like this is something worth talking about and exploring. Asking questions like: is sex something that stays a part of this relationship? How do we consent moving forwards? For the ace person, do they still want sex? Having sex for emotional & physical intimacy is a valid reason for having sex. That's part of the authentic and informed framework of consent. And then sometimes leading to questions like, if the ace person doesn't want to have sex as often or ever, what does it mean for the allo person & their wants/needs? Is it a deal breaker? Can they talk about opening their relationship and/or polyamory to get their sexual needs met? Maybe sex the act isn't as important as the emotional relationship? Maybe there's some compromise where some parts of sex are ok, and other parts the ace person would rather not/only wants it very infrequently/sets a hard no? There are countless of situations, and each are difficult in their own ways to navigate. It's about building the psychological safety to talk about these things with partners or other people, and to find the language to communicate. I've been really lucky to find online communities where people talk about the nuances of being asexual and/or aromantic (to throw in another identity, aromantic are people who experience little to no romantic attraction) and how they navigate sex and dating/relationships, which is why I can share some of those insights with you today :)
@@KnickKnackPatty Thank you for taking considerable time detailing your view. I fully agree, that communicating needs/desired/boundaries is super important. Everyone involved in sex should treat everyone else involved with respect and compassion. However, consent rules divide sharply into sex and assault/rape. The proposed 'informed consent' model just piles on the requirements for sexual activity. Requiring to verify age, sobriety, IQ and a full sex ed course knowledge basically means the end to any sexual activity outside of long term relationships. Or flipped on it's head: Do you think that any model that brands the vast majority of sex as assault/rape is feasible? If you present enthusiastic consent to most happily married couples the fall over laughing so hard, because you are telling them they are constantly raping each other and are liking it!
I think I have to partially agree with Stars that authentic consent doesn't seem like much of a practical answer. The progression from No means No, to Yes means Yes, to Enthusiastic, to Authentic consent definitely does more to capture the nuances and pressures surrounding consent, but at the cost of clarity in practice. An explicit No or Yes is unambiguous, but determining enthusiasm is a bit more vague (at least for my brain that likes to be able to prove things). And although authentic consent definitely seems like the closest that we've got to an ideal model, it is also the muddiest to use. That said, I think it is still useful to have a name and description for it, since it gives us something to clarify and to work on putting into practice. It sounds to me like this is an issue of taking an intuitive idea of what consent is and making it explicit. It may help to think in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions for something to be consent. For the unfamiliar a necessary but insufficient condition is one that must be met, but is not enough on its own for something to be consent. While a sufficient but not necessary condition is one that definitely meets the idea of consent, but may not be the only way to meet it. Best as I can tell, enthusiastic consent is sufficient, but not necessary, as demonstrated by some of Hannah's examples. So I think it would be helpful to try and figure out what some of the necessary conditions are. And that will really help narrow down the gray area, and aid in understanding. I think about this kind of clarification a lot. I think the best and most practical thing is to do is to start from enthusiastic consent as the sort of baseline, and allow for some exceptions. Not that I have any real idea of what I'm talking about.
I mean, what Authentic Consent says is basically to use common sense to determine if the other person wants (in broader sense) to have sex, on top of requiring explicit consent. That way, determining consent becomes like any other social skill, which most people are fairly good at.
Have you ever gone through your own sexual experiences and classified them into 'consenting' and 'assault' based on each model? Even Yes means Yes produces shocking numbers of assault if you require an explicit unambiguous Yes.
I'm teaching my grandchildren these things (outside of sexual contexts for now since they're 7 and under): No means no. Silence means no. If you haven't asked, it means no. Don't means no. Stop means no. Asleep means no. And it means no the first time. I'm trying to evolve both mine and their understanding.
But teach them that it is okay to ask why they said no. Do they dont want it in general? Just not now? Just not here? Or do they want me to do something first? The no means no, often sounds as the talk is over at that point. But understanding why the ither person dont want something, can be crucial for the learning
@@arzuriakuroi5323you don't always need an answer so I wholeheartedly disagree because a boundary should be accepted regardless of it having a detailed explanation. The only times you need an explanation for something that's no is if it's work-related or it's about a general rule that isn't related to interpersonal relationships. The more you know 🌈
This was super interesting! I hadn't heard about the concept of authentic consent, but tbh that's what I thought enthusiastic consent meant. So I definitely learned something, thanks!
Yeah the way I see it is giving and receiving consent, where both parties are able to do so, in any form is the bare minimum from a legal position. I would still advocate enthusiastic consent as the gold standard, particularly for non-transactional one night stands or first time when dating or in a relationship. However, recognising that other forms of consent are still consent is necessary, not least because people shouldn't feel that they maybe weren't giving consent in the past just because they weren't jumping up and down in enthusiasm, and all the other things that might lead to mentally. It is complex because what you personally would really want to call consent in one context may change in another, and you shouldn't judge yourself on what level of enthusiasm you would give consent, or not have given consent, in the past or even in the future.
I don't think I have ever heard sexworkers, asexual people and people wanting to get pregnant grouped together. Not that they are mutually exclusive, but an interesting facet nonetheless.
Authentic consent! I love it! The most important thing to me is agency, and this model focuses exactly on that. To truly respect a person is to respect their agency: their choices and their right to make those choices for reasons that are their own. Anything less is oppression, even if it is well-meaning.
As someone with no libido who has avoided sex because I don't experience typical arousal or seek it out but still have it, thank you so much. I've gone almost my whole life dreading talking about sex, because all it becomes is how I'm not good enough, or I'm a liar for saying that I want to have it because I'm built different. Sex has always felt like just berating, exactly because my partners all wanted enthusiastic consent from me. I of course did and do still consent. But every "Oh you like this too", "you're not doing this just for me right", "you feel good too right", "Hey do you really want this" felt like a slap to the face, with my partners wondering why I've become scarce. It's hard enough being a woman with no libido. It's even shittier still to be punished because I don't become aroused or I get avoidant, but then of course also punished when I DO have sex, BOTH because of things I cannot control. So as a Doer and Giver, thank you! This puts into better words all that I've tried to say.
I knew something bugged me about the enthusiastic consent model! it doesn't include the "sure, I'll try it" that happens when you're exploring something new.
To answer your question. I'm demi-ace, bi, poly, and non-binary. I feel that sometimes I can enthusiastically consent. Sometimes I just want to make my partner happy but I myself don't really need the sex. I think, because I'm ace people assume I don't want sex and when they discover I have sex they just call me "picky." I do have PTSD from childhood sexual trauma and due to that I do like to know before having sex what kinds of acts we are going to do so I'm not at all surprised. I also like frequent check-ins during sex to make sure I'm still comfy. When I was younger and in my first relationship I thought I was broken and felt societally pressed to have sex and kept trying with my partner at that time and would cry a lot because it wasn't "ideal" sex. I've grown a lot and I find pleasure in my own version of sex, which is non-penetrative, and doesn't make me feel bad about myself. The good part to being demi is I only have sex with people I've known for at least half a year and fully trust, which makes me feel really safe. Not sure what kind of consent I'm describing though.
This might sound REALLY stupid, but I never really thought about or realized just how scientific every single aspect of sex is lol and not only the actual act itself, but everything that comes before as well after..its honestly mind boggling..but in a very positive way lol. 🤯 not only do I find everything that you/your channel does/represents to be extremely intriguing &worthwhile, I also really appreciate it and feel that it's absolutely necessary. It's so much more than just a "sex&relationship" channel...idk how to properly express what exactly it is I mean lol you/your channel, its great. Its perfect lol keep on keeping on. Lol
This is a problem I had with talk about Consent for a long time. Not only am I on the ace spectrum, but I also can't have heterosexual Penetrative Sex due to Vaginism. Due to that my Partner and I experiment frequently with different stuff in the Bedroom, like oral, bdsm, or him getting penetrated. The last one is especially interesting for me, since I'm Non Binary and that kinda lets me explore my Gender in Relation to my Sexuality. So in multiple Situations neither of us are really that "enthusiastic" about Sex but we're still excited to explore how something affects the other one. And in a lot more Situations one party gets kinda "talked into" Sex but it's not because they're unsure about the Sex act itself, but rather things related to what's proposed, like needing to clean up a body part before or after. Because of this I often find myself confused by information about Consent, because we're both fully consenting every time, yet so often our consent looks different from what is portrayed as "good consent"
I think it’s important to tell people to say “no” to sex AS LONG AS it’s about empowering them and letting them know they have that power, AND there’s no shame or blame if they failed to say “no.” I wouldn’t be surprised if sex ed programs missed this mark, but I do think saying no should be encouraged. Even in all other social contexts, society would be a better place if we made things more abundantly clear.
If they failed to say "no" and said "yes" that is legally consent. It's important people don't get sent to jail just because their partner is a timid and agreeable person.
This is such a good and important video. As someone who has trouble figuring out what im feeling when, my first relationship was a huge mess in no small part because when i asked for advice on how to handle complications during intimate situations: peoples reactions would range from acting like i got assaulted to telling me i needed to stand up for myself or simply being disapointed in me. Not to mention all the wellintentioned social media campaigning and that i was constantly bombarded w leaving me more confused than before. I dont know people just love to say that consent is easy to navigate when in my experience its incredibly confusing.
I really appreciated this video! As someone with vaginismus, my consent is often not enthusiastic because it hurts; there’s a downside to it, even though it’s something I want to do. This video was really validating!
This is one of your best break down videos in a while. This covers it in a intercourse lense but we can also apply this to other interactions. Including online media during this age. Thank you for giving people the 101 if you will of all the different models. I feel that this is where debates come up at the expense of the survivors lived experience. We need to not try and analyze others experiences but ask them what model of consent they use helps us make informed choices and communication styles. I feel like the way we view it shapes how we understand what we are talking about. Thank you endlessly for this one in particular.
Thank you for this video. Enthusiastic consent always seemed odd to me, as a married woman with a toddler, because there are times I'm not enthusiastic about sex, and often consent as someone who wants to be a giver to their husband because I want to give myself to him for his pleasure. I may not be entirely enthusiastic, but am openly consenting without force or persuasion.
This is exactly how I feel about it for the same reasons too. If we waited until I felt truly “enthusiastic” about it then we would just never have sex. I’m too tired these days to get excited over it lol but I do love my partner and like to make him feel good
The: Good. Some people do not realize (perhaps because this is not true for them) that for many people, the difference between sex and no sex is the difference between a pleasant life and a slow plodding trudge to the grave. At a certain point, if one person wants sex and the other is unwilling to give it, seeing other people should be permitted.
With young children, it's hard to find time when both are available and enthusiastic. Sometimes it's true that "appetite comes with food", where one is not enthusiastic at the beginning, but then ends up having fun anyway. Other times one just gives pleasure to the other -- out of love, not feeling of obligation. I see a problem only if this ends up being one-sided.
It is comforting seeing ace people recognized in consent conversations, cause it has made for a mess of trying to parse through some....not great situations...as someone who is in the repulsed camp but has been willing to try things in the past sometimes, and has been pressured other times. Thank you for this video, I expect I shall be sharing it with more than a few people in the future.
There are a lot of comments saying “ace people have sex”- yes but not always, NOT all ace people have sex or feel obligated to. I feel like this is a tricky video because there is a long, LONG history of corrective rape documented by asexual peoples and an overall pressure and sometimes complete coercion to have sex. So yes consent isn’t always “enthusiastic,” but I don’t think our society’s ace friendly enough to assume that an ace person’s consent isn’t still manipulated by the world’s standards and views on sex.
THANK YOU, particularly on the part about mentioning how a lack of enthusiastic consent often gets framed as a lack of consent entirely. I mentioned basically this same thing in a reddit thread and was downvoted to oblivion for acknowledging that you can consent to sex that you don't "want" to do, that was the specific wording and the context of the discussion. I suppose one could argue the problem is that "want" is kind of vague, but I absolutely think there are time when you don't "want" to do a sex act but still consent and have it not be rape. I've been bored during sex before and I would say personally that me being bored during sex is me not wanting sex in that moment because I would rather be doing something else, but I'm considerate enough to let my partner finish. Like yeah I'm not overly enthusiastic about what is going on but I certainly wasn't traumatized by any means and my partner certainly didn't do anything wrong. I feel like the very idea that you can have "bad sex" seems to imply that there is sex we don't want to do that is not rape. I also feel like there's that stereotypical thing of "oh it's my partner's birthday so I'll do that thing they like" which to me often reads as "I don't particularly enjoy this sex act, I would not seek it out, and I do not enjoy doing it very often even if my partner likes it, but because it is a special occasion I am willing to spoil my partner and indulge in something they like even if I'm not that into it" what you actually want is for your partner to be happy and fulfilled, the sex act itself is just a means to an end which if you didn't have to do it to get the response you want then you probably wouldn't. It's pretty similar to sex work in that much of the time what the worker wants is the compensation not necessarily the sex act and I don't think wanting a particular result or outcome can then be extrapolated to mean you wanted to do the necessary action to get it. People working at McDonalds generally probably do not want to flip patties, they want their paycheck and I don't think them wanting their paycheck means you can then say they actually do want to flip patties or something. Just because you want a particular end, doesn't mean you like or enjoy the means to get that end, but also just because you don't enjoy the means to your desired end doesn't mean it was traumatic to get there. People were just not hearing it though, they really did not want to acknowledge these shades of grey and would rather stick their heads in the sand and think it's only a binary of either enthusiastic consent or rape, even though that does not actually reflect how people have sex.
Thank you, this is a really great video. It's not an exaggeration to say the Wheel of Consent has changed my life for the better! If you were to add one further definition of consent it could be 'trauma aware' or 'power aware' consent as described my Milena Popova in her book 'Sexual Consent', which she defines as follows: “When we move away from looking at consent as something that happens between individuals in a specific situation and start looking at it as something enmeshed in social structures, cultural practices, and complex operations of power, the radical potential of the idea of consent becomes really clear. This version of consent allows us to ask much bigger questions than who said yes and who said no. It allows us to start exploring the social and cultural forces that shape the options we have, how we see ourselves, how we are seen by others, right down to our very desires. It allows us to ask what the conditions are that we need to create for consent to be truly free, and truly meaningful.”
As an asexual person and specifically how I work, I would 100% need a divorce of the only way to consent would be enthusiastic consent. I am not enthusiastic for sex. Ever. I am happy to "show up" for my partner if I have the energy for it. The energy, not the enthusiasm. Its a good rule of thumb ofc, but I am doing it for my partner if I am able and it works perfectly for us.
I really like the idea of authentic consent, I've always thought enthusiastic was missing something. I really appreciate the list of why people have sex. The emotional side of sex is really more nuanced, it's not always a simple binary of yes and no. Really appreciate the video and thank you for the links!
In my literature class, one book has a sex scene where one character does not give consent. He is simply being told what he was going to have done to you. This video really helps for discussing this in class.
I became a pro at unenthusiastic consent in marriage. It was never about feeling pressured. It was about being sleepy/ stressed/ tired but understanding that sex would make my husband feel loved. And also understanding that, were the tables turned, he would come through for me. Then we tried to conceive, unsuccessfully, for over a year. I definitely was the instigator in most of those encounters... although usually neither of us was enthusiastic. People who prone enthusiastic or verbal consent imply that non-verbal or unenthusiastic consent is hard to discern. But the narrative that consent is difficult to identify is very dangerous. Any person who is functioning normally can tell when consent is not there. And any husband who does the 'roll and nudge' understands that, if his wife then proceeds to cuddle closer to him and remove her underwear, she's probably not saying 'no'.
I see what you're saying but I disagree on that last part about every sane person being able to understand subtle clues. Your husband obviously knows you and vice versa. You have years together and countless experiences that made him know when you do X you're consenting and it's not you saying yes begrudgingly or for some performative reason. Just bc that's your experience with your husband doesn't mean that goes for literally every couple or every person who just started dating someone new. So please just speak for yourself and not everyone else. Thank you! 😇
not sure if I agree that "Any person who is functioning normally can tell when consent is not there" - it begs the question what 'normal' is, and a lot of people do have different ideas of what constitutes implied consent. For instance as a man I have felt entitled to people verbally communicating with me in the middle of physical intimacy if they didn't want to do anything sexual. Imo that entitlement stemmed from social norms around women not wanting to be explicitly asked, and expecting men to be 'dominant' and 'lead'. (and assuming that women were as capable of saying 'stop' or 'hold on' or pushing someone off as they are in media when sexual activity is unwanted)
I love the wheel of consent. As a cishet man with dominate tendencies, I like to Serve and Take at about a 3 to 1 ratio, and usually in that order. I've never been really able to express or understand that as fully before.
one of my friends has been struggling with "bad sex" as in he feels obligated to say yes because if he doesn't his partner will be sad, and he's just trying to avoid a big deal. and when I asked if he was sexually active with his partner and he phrased it "unfortunately so" and I'm going to show him this video because I wasn't able to explain consent as clearly as I wanted to and this even cleared some things up for me so thanks for letting me help my friend
I love all this so much! I wasn't familiar with the definition of authentic consent and it is really amazing. redefining what good sex (outside of the legal kind of consent) means for your individual situation is very important as well. I get so happy every time your videos pop up.
“i felt like i owed it to the person” “my partner kept insisting” and “it felt like the thing to do” don’t sound like unenthusiastic reasons to have consensual sex, they sound like coercion. i feel like reading those ones kind of undermined a point that is still otherwise valid.
so glad you ended with a bit on ethical sex. the part where you listed all the reasons people had sex and hearing some of them be "i felt like i had to" or "because i was married" didn't seem very healthy perhaps or good, and the idea of ethical sex where sure those could be reasons to have consensual sex doesn't mean you should do it? legality of the situation shouldn't be the only thing that stops you from doing it
Really informative video Hannah on a super important topic. Personally speaking, I rarely have interest in initiating sex but I am often happy to consent to sex with my partner because its not a negative experience, makes them happy and I enjoy the intimate bonding experience. Ultimately I think authentic consent is the best model, not just because it fits for me personally but is the most inclusive and accurate model for the many reasons people have sex without leaving any room for rape, sexual violence or coercion - which as you said, feels wrong to call 'sex' because it is so far away from what sex should be.
I've always thought of consent as giving permission, for myself anyway. I realise it might not work for many people, but for me the idea of giving permission makes me feel in control.
Back when I was married I took on board the "'no' means no" message, which made my wife furious when I took it as "'no' means leave me alone", rolled over and read a book. When we got down to discussing it, it turned out her meaning was "'no' means I'm not ready, I need more arousing, work at it". Come to think of it I don't recall any time she actually didn't want sex.
This is a fantastic video! Thank you so much for explaining the evolution of consent so concisely and clearly, it really helped me understand where we're at with the current "enthusiastic consent" idea and organise my thoughts around it. As an asexual person I've had some complex thoughts about consent, but the framework behind authentic consent makes so much more sense for me, thank you for introducing me to the idea!
I'd never heard about authentic consent, but as someone who is ace and sex-neutral I love that as a concept. There are so many reasons to have sex that don't necessarily require sexual attraction and enthusiastic consent always made me feel a little like I had to push myself to seem enthusiastic about sex. I also really like the wheel of consent -- it made me think about which of the quadrants I'm comfortable fitting in to, and which make me uncomfortable, which is a super helpful realisation, so thanks so much for sharing!
personally I just couldn't get down with someone who isn't enthusiastically consenting, but I can't pass judgement on anyone who chooses to consent without active desire (for all the reasons you listed and more). Authentic consent is a good framework
Maybe that explains it for you. Just think of forplay. Forplay is, at least between me and my bf, often done before one really gets in the mood for sex, because my bf or i sometimes need that forplay to get in the mood in the first place. So we are alredy half way to have sex, before we eben want it. For example i am not in the mood, and my partner moans stuff into my ear and nibble on them. And only through that i would get that active desire. But if he would have asked me 10 sec earlier, sex yes or no? I would have probably said no.
I’d only ever seen as far as enthusiastic consent before, and I’d never considered its pitfalls re sex work, so I learnt a new thing with authentic consent and the consent wheel thanks!
I grew up in a sexually open town (Woodstock, NY…☮️). There were no ‘rules’, but it was talked about openly. It was normalized. Teachers used sex metaphors, discussed it in open forums, while also reprimanding us for being inappropriate. Ironically, this led to a very non-promiscuous high school where most sex was in relationships and had little to no violence.
Great video! Ive thought about this myself alot, it always felt weird to me that i had to be enthusiastic to consent. Sometimes I'm just okay with it, and being okay is definitely consent.
Your transitions during the reasons list were very jarring for me, and I had to look away. I'm probably not the only one who had this issue. Great video though! These are important conversations to have. Thank you for putting this out there
I'm so glad you covered the limits of enthusiastic consent! I am diagnosed with bipolar disorder, among other things, and that has a pretty substantial impact on my sex life. I can go from hypersexual to hyposexual over the course of a day or two, and stay in either mode for upwards of weeks or months. I'm married, I know that I typically like sex, and I love my husband and being physical with him. No, I'm not particularly enthusiastic or turned on when I'm in a hyposexual state (thank god for lube), but I want my husband to experience sexual pleasure (not in a "wifely duties" sort of way, just in a "I like when you scratch an itch when I'm itchy, and I like scratching your itches too" sort of way) and it's also not horrible to me by any means. I'm not writhing and moaning and showing much wild passion, but I'm also not NOT enjoying myself. It feels nice, like a massage lol. And to say I'm not consenting just because I'm not enthusiastic and dripping wet really removes my agency when it comes to how I want to use my own body.
I like the "enthusiastic consent" model, and I still think it should be taught in general sex ed and what people should try for, especially in the beginning of relationships. But it's way too narrow for people's actual sexual behavior. Open conversations between partners about boundaries and types of consent they can use in their relationship are ideal. For example, in the past I've told my partner that I am okay with them assuming consent and initiating when I am asleep, because I am a light sleeper and I feel able to safely withdraw that consent situationally. However, this has changed over time, and now that I usually take a strong sleep aid we have modified those boundaries.
So you give explicit and unprompted consent to any sexual activity with you partner? Because from my experience, that has never happened. I also don't give that kind of consent as a man that still burns for his wife.
I appreciate hearing your thoughts and some of the latest thinking on this. I’ve always operated on the principle of “don’t be a jackass.” It seems to cover most of the most important things.
Incredibly insightful on how consent has evolved and improved over time as well as a new perspective through the wheel! It helped contextualize actions so much more cleanly for my math/logic brain. Thank you Hannah!
If we're talking about the pitfalls of different standards of consent, it's worth adding that standards above affirmative consent (and even affirmative consent to a lesser degree) are rather ablist. Specifically, they're discriminatory against those who are less able to process and intuited the genuine nature of actions.
@@kaiyodei Barring the issue that IQ is a bad statistic, that's not what I was meaning. I was intending to reference autistic people or psychopathic people. Those with social processing issues.
As a philosophy nerd, I'm partial to the fourfold consent model at the end here. Fourfold conceptual models are always the best. So logical and yet open to application/interpretation. Hmm. As for how it's to be expressed if the consent is to be (lawfully) believable/viable, I'd call it Negotiated Consent; as long as there's been an ethically, interpersonally driven negotiation and agreement on how/why the sex was to happen, authentic to each person involved, before, during, and/or after, whether in words or body language, to any degree (you could agree to just improvise and have a safe word, or not even that), then that's your evidence when negotiation failed or an agreement was broken. From there, deciding the consequences of any bad stuff that's happened (talk it out, ghost someone, legal action, lawmaking, etc.) is a whole big other thing that a lot of the consent discourse and backlash seems mostly either apocalyptic or non-specific about. Which, to be fair, the mainstreamed discourse I'm getting on this, since I'm not in the expert community, has mostly been filtered through the backlash.
Thanks for a great video! I think ‘no means no’ came about because it used to be a cultural thing that women would demur because to say yes straight away would be bad for their reputations. So ‘no’ became the start of negotiations. But obviously we have moved on from that. I have always felt uncomfortable about enthusiastic consent. I just picture someone jumping on the bed with a big smile lol. I think one of the things enthusiastic consent was trying to get away from was the model of someone getting badgered and then finally saying ‘yes’. That’s not consent. Love the idea of authentic consent.
I feel like one key consideration is totally missing from this discussion: Feasibility. Think about your past 20 sexual encounters and then - by consent model - sort them into 'consenting sex' and 'sexual assault'. No means No - Did either party say "No" to any activity and it still continued? If yes, it's sexual assault. For me that happened 0 out of 20. Yes means Yes - Did both parties involved clearly and explicitly state "Yes" in response to a proposition of having sex? If not, it's sexual assault. It would mean me and my wife assault each other more often than not. Enthusiastic consent - Did both parties clearly communicate consent without being prompted for each and every sexual activity? If not, it's sexual assault. Basically all sex I can think of would be classified as reciprocal sexual assault. The other models proposed aren't better. How do you think, people will react, when you propose systems that criminalize the majority of the sex they have experienced to the mutual satisfaction all parties involved?
This actually made me think and refine my understanding of consent. Up until now I’ve always operated on and thought that the model of enthusiastic consent was the way to go, but you’ve broadened my understanding and made me think about how someone can consent to sex without necessarily being enthusiastic about it, like you said with sex workers and people trying to get pregnant.
I thought it stoping at enthusastic consent made sense enough but i can see why its more complicated than that and goes beyond that now and that makes more sense thank you
I think the inability to say no directly to small as well as big things is more of a thing in England, with its emphasis on polymers and indirect communication than in the USA. I think that here it is easier to say "No thanks. I'm kind of tired tonight" or whatever.
During the pandemic a friend of mine and I moved further into an emotional and sexual relationship, with me being the dominant one. I would prefer to speak and reach an agreement about further sexual activity in person rather than by text or call, but from what we've discussed about our kinks and interests I'm absolutely sure that they would accept a blanket consent agreement for free use, as well as CNC encounters. Consent is very complex and interesting, and this is a great introductory video! Always discuss with your partners what your limits are, what you would like to do and make sure to keep a healthy relationship!
I'd never thought about the narrowness of "enthusiasm". I think my 6 words has been trimmed down to 4. *Sober, informed consent of a peer.* Sober: the consent must be given while the person is sound of mind. This means not inebriated by alcohol or drugs, but it also means not under other influences such as duress, social pressure, or even extreme emotions or passions. This includes hounding someone until they give in. Now, having sex while not sober can be perfectly consensual, but the consent, imo, cannot be given while in an altered state of mind. "Let's get drunk and fuck" is an acceptable invitation to have sex while not sober. Infrormed: both parties should be informed of risks, conditions, and expectations of the other participant(s). There are no surprises during sex. Fertility status, STI status, and expectations during and AFTER sex should be known by all parties. Desired acts should also be communicated which means that during sex negotiation the medical status of a person's genitalia should be disclosed. Especially if you have damaged or atypical presentations that could have medical or health consequences if not dealt with properly. This is especially tricky for us trans folk, especially given the DEEP currents of transphobia in our society, but again, people need to know which acts they are agreeing to. Trans siblings, please do this somewhere where you can easily get assistance should the response become violent or hurtful. 💙💜🤍💜💙 Consent: Pretty simple. The decisive, intentional, proactive choice to engage in an activity with someone and allow them to engage in an activity with you. Anytime you do not have a choice, or your choice is unduly influenced by outside factors, it is not consent. I may expand it to "free consent" or "freely-given consent" to make this more explicit. Peer: This used to be "adult" or "adult human", but that ignores the sexual agency of two minors or other existing power imbalances. Employers, superiors, adults with minors, or people in any place of authority should not solicit, or agree to, sex with anyone they hold power over- unless there are ethical circumstances that nullify the disparity of power such as partners who are partnered before the power imbalance exists, for instance. Yes, this raises other ethical concerns of nepotism and favouritism but those are ethical concerns of those spheres of activity, not in the sex act itself. It is possible to give consent in a power imbalance if all parties are able to freely disregard the power imbalance and make an informed choice, but it is not possible to determine if that is the case from an outside perspective. Also, permitting such relationships deteriorates our ability to prohibit abusive power-imbalance relationships. As heart-breaking as a given situation may be, consent given under a power imbalance cannot be accepted. Ever.
It troubles me how many men are in here flat out refusing to believe that people can say ‘yes’ when they mean ‘no’ because they have been socialised to not say no. Ffs. Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean we are making it up
From what I've seen, women tend not to be enthusiastic. Rather, when they want intimacy (be it sex or just kissing) they make no effort to let the man know and instead expect him to be a mind reader. For instance, I once went on a few dates with a woman. At the end of the second or third date, I finally kissed her. Afterwards, she went cross at me for having taken so long to finally kiss her! She had begun to wonder if I even wanted to kiss her. The thing is, up until that moment she had given me ZERO signs that she wanted me to kiss her. She didn't flirt with me or anything, she just coldly and robotically existed in my presence. Another time, I went to a woman's house to have sex. But, when I got there she was watching tv and she ignored me. We got through 3 whole episodes of Ghost Whisperer before I finally forced myself to anxiously put an arm around her. She ignored me. Eventually, I leant my head against her shoulder. She ignored me. I finally kissed her neck. She ignored me. Finally, I plucked up the courage and kissed her cheek. She turned her head toward me and kissed me on the lips. I don't know why she spent the whole time giving me zero signals and acting with zero enthusiasm. I nearly didn't even bother trying. Worst still, she blamed me for not simply jumping on her as soon as I came in the door. The behaviour that she had expected and demanded of me is the sort of behaviour that women complain about men doing.
Wow what u described sounds really odd. I agree that woman sometimes dont give clear signals/ dont want to make first steps. But normally a women will react, especially if u head in the right directions, for example u flirt, she flirts back. U lay your arm around u, she come a bit closer etc. But what u describe is definetly not the norm. Or at least not around me xD
@@arzuriakuroi5323Yeah but what about women saying grape is bad yet they have grape fantasies What about women saying they are afraid of getting killed yet they send love letters to serial killers
The times I had the best sex always started with a discussion of what we're going to do, what we want or don't etc. I got the idea from the way things work in the BDSM community but it's so useful for all sex. That to me is ethical consent, making sure everyone is okay with whatever is happening, regularly checking in to be sure and discussing afterwards. Even in more transactional instances.
YES! The whole "no means no" thing is like the very basics of consent and just bc someone doesn't say no explicitly doesn't mean that they've consented
I affirm that as adults, we consent to things all the time, but rarely enthusiastically so. However, that’s why I think our understanding of consent must come down to mutual, verbal agreement - not an assumed one. And absence of consent should be enough to allege an assault or violation. The sometimes subtle or changing presence of consent is the social problem that I think “enthusiastic consent” is trying to solve - but it doesn’t. Because even though consent can usually be revoked at any time, in any area of our lives where we give it, it is usually only given - once. And that is, at the onset of the activity. It is not re-solicited on an hourly or minute-by-minute basis, nor is that a practical expectation. Obviously, consent isn’t a priority to maleficent predators, but for those who care - who do not want to cross a boundary due to simple lack of understanding - we need to teach dual consent and agreement - and we need to believe that it’s OK to teach young adults to use their voices and overcome fear-freeze responses, and that doing so is not blaming anyone.
New here. I liked the video a lot. I am to used to see this discussion mixed with politics and is refreshing to watch a conversation that tries to analyze the topic and not only blaming the other side.
Thanks for this video. The problems with the enthusiastic consent model, particularly those around asexual people and sex workers, have always bothered me a bit, and I'm happy to be introduced to authentic consent. This is also the first time I've seen this wheel, but I totally agree about the thrill of quadrant focusing. I can comfortably occupy any (or a combination) to varying degrees, but using Serve as an example: just focusing really hard on the pleasure my partner is experiencing and myself/my body as the source of that pleasure is a pretty wild stimulant. Better than a fair chunk of the physical sensations, certainly.
Oh... thanks. As an ace person, the framework of enthusiast consent always rubbed me the wrong way. It's nice to hear someone else notice this and put it into words. And for someone to assure me that I could consent to sex if I wanted to, even if I don't ever plan on it and I wouldn't be able to be enthusiastic.
You cannot just redefine consent in a way that negates the inherent violence in sex work. I agree that there is a difference between doing something that you agreed on (for money) and rape (in general or during sex work). Still, having sex with a person without really wanting it can be traumatizing and the risk of getting rape is really high for most forms of prostutition. If we would tread sex work like every other job or if we would expect the same safety requirements in prostitution as in mens jobs, it would not be allowed anywhere. (It at least is legal where I live - still there are young women getting kidnapped)
this is such a cool video, it talks about a lot of important things that i didn't learn until after high school. i hadn't heard of the phrase authentic consent but kind of subconsciously understood that it has to exist because of some of the examples you listed. i wonder if this type of video could be shown in a high school sex ed class because i think it would do so helpful to people that age.
yasss finally! I keep saying that not all consent is enthusiastic, I even made a reel about it recently for Brook's theme! it's subjective and THANK YOU for reminding me that it was Dr Nadine T who spoke about authentic consent, i couldnt remember where I saw it on Insta!
I really think the system that men are the ones who want to have sex and women are the ones who give permission to sex really needs to retire. I’ve been in two relationships until now and both times I had the higher sex drive. Especially in my first relationship is was very difficult to come to terms with because society taught me that men are supposed to always want sex. And if they don’t want sex, it’s not because they have a lower sex drive, are stressed at work, tiered, not in the mood for it or anything else - it’s because they are not attracted to their partner. Oh boy. It was a mess.
am: True. "Desire discrepancy" can happen with either the man or the woman is the one that wants more sex than the other. I've heard both men and women complain about this. And, of course, it also happens in male male and female female relationships.
How can you call yourself a feminist if you don’t believe sex is a thing men do to women, defiling their innocence to slake their perverse desires? Next, you’re going to tell me women actually want babies!
Agreed I think it’s a symptom of this idea that society has really forced men and the idea of manhood into a tiny crummy box that’s really just crap for everyone.
I am jealous of your partners. My gf is as cold as ice.
@@dickiewongtk damn I'm sorry she has no heater and I hope she doesn't die of frostbite! you should probably check on her to make sure she's doing okay, humans aren't normally supposed to be that cold! unless you meant it metaphorically and I'm playing dumb, but I would never play dumb simply to misinterpret someone's words humorously
I remember someone insinuating that I was being sexually assaulted for doing something for my partner because he likes it and I didn't actively want to do it, but didn't mind it for that, so yeah I think authentic consent is a much better system and doesn't involve taking away people's autonomy to choose to do something
I am a sex neutral ace who has been sexually active. My consent is never gonna be enthusiastic because sex for me is like that concert of an artist i couldn't care less about, but my partner likes them, so i don't mind going with them to the concert once in a while and i even enjoy certain aspects of it while there, but i am never going to suggest going or be ok with going very often. So yeah, my consent will remain a " meh ok, nothing better to do right now anyway 🤷🏼♀️"
@@nessyness5447 exactly, I always think of ace people when enthusiastic consent comes up. In order to have a healthy relationship with a non-ace partner you basically have to have a sex life - it's very much a "must" for most non-ace people. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with engaging in that for the purpose of improving the relationship and making your partner happy, even if it isn't enthusiastic on your end. There's so many things I do for my partner that I'm not enthusiastic about but that I still do authentically simply because I care about them.
Only you can tell if you have been sexually assaulted. If you don't think you were, then you weren't.
@@marjetacedilnik8622 eh I wouldn’t go off that either as most times I’ve not “felt like” I have when I have and thats a common trauma response (normalising the experience)
@@HonorWillow no, no, Marjeta is right. If it doesn't feel like assault, it's not.
Never thought of comparing saying no to sex to saying no to other things in our lives. No wonder it's so difficult to say no in sexual situations, are lives have trained us to be amenable to the whims of others!!!! SUCH great insight and analysis, so simple an idea but makes so much sense!
yes!! when I first heard this comparison from Dr. Meg-John Barker it was like something clicked!
@@DanFrederiksen sometimes you have a boss who asks you to work overtime, and you're tired, you want to go home, but you want your job and the possibility of a promotion, so you work overtime. sometimes you really hate a coworker, but you don't pick fights with them, even when they pick fights with you, because their family's in the management and if they say anything to the higher-ups, you won't get the pay-raise you need to save up for grad school. sometimes, some rando at a party won't stop flirting with you, and you don't want him to beat you up or follow you home later, so you smile at him and try out excuses until he gets bored and leaves you alone. sometimes he doesn't get bored. and he does follow you home. and you don't want him to beat you up so you let in and play nice.
there are a lot of circumstances where people hold power over you and you kind of have to appease them or face some sort of violence, be it to your body or to your livelihood. women are often put in positions of making this choice, especially since they tend to make less money on average and be less physically intimidating. sometimes it's clear that a "no" won't be dangerous, and many women deny consent regularly. but many just kind of go along with things (and even convince themselves they like this turn of events) because it avoids a greater harm in that instance. the problem is when that appeasing instinct kicks in even as someone could be finding other ways out of the situation that won't hurt them as much.
@@DanFrederiksen "I know women are supposed to be unreasonable". I would say "I know men are supposed to be assholes and kind of dumb but come on you're overdoing it" but it's not all men, it's you. We're literally taught to please everyone and put the needs of others before our own from the moment we can talk, and then we have to endure people like you calling us unreasonable if we internalize it and have trouble saying no.
@@DanFrederiksen Karen pleases no one but that's on white/classe privilege, there's a little thing called intersectionality. And no, not every men make it so easy as you for women to say no to, being a sexist homophobic who doesn't seem to understand what "homosexual" means. (It's not an insult, it's a sexuality. Also Zac Efron is straight and Harry Styles idenfies as something else). But is not about being tempted by hotness of fame (?), and the "trouble saying no to" you mentioned seemed concearnimgly close to actual sexual desire, which would lead to consent. This whole thing about it not being normalized to say a plain no to things we don't want to do (but then again, your personal experience is probably tainted by you being a homophobic sexist jerk, women find it a lot easier to say no to guys like you in general (: ). Maybe it's someone one nice/ your fried/ boyfriend/ husband/ boss/ someone who is threatening your safety. But the main comment is about how it's not normal to say a plain no in general. "Do you want to hang out?" "No": that's not a common interaction between any to people, especially if they know and like each other. It's a lot more common to say you can't and make an excuse.
@@DanFrederiksen Bruh, why you gotta do this? You're making your homies look bad.
The fact that in my sex ed not once did they ever talk about consent 🥴 and I think that honestly really contributed to a lot of scenarios where I thought I couldn’t say no.
Same tho. I ended up, for a long time, viewing consent as something which I should get, not something I needed to give. My first girlfriend was bad with consent and I really could've used another source of understanding it, I ended up thinking of it only within a really specific version of the no means no model.
I didn’t get a sex Ed. This makes things worse as some people don’t even think to ask.
@@eriks1765 I totally agree. I can't wrap my head around that I never had a class mention it beyond "no means no"
This is great as a physically disabled person in a gay relationship, who is ace(but bones). Sex isn't as easy as "is it bone time? I want bone time". It's a combo of questions like, "Am I physically able? Will I need care afterwards? Am I up for it emotionally? Etc etc". Sex isn't usually about me, it's about taking care of my partner's wants and needs. Whether I'm down to clown is usually determined by the roulette that is health. It's often not black or white either! Sex is often "let's see how it goes, I'm okay for now". Every couple/pair needs to figure out what communication style works for them!
What I encourage for everyone though, is having a safe word that you can use outside of sexual circumstances as well. Being overwhelmed by something and using the safeword to indicate things aren't okay is a game changer!
Ah yes, the tricky combo of sex and disability. My partner has severe ME/CFS but we're both very sexually enthusiastic. In that sense, enthusiastic consent is pretty much the default, followed up nine times out of ten with "Eeeeeh, but we probably shouldn't..."
👏👏👏
“Down to clown” I’m dead 😂
Being asexual, I always interpreted "enthusiastic consent" as enthusiasm for whatever reason I was consenting to the sex for. This video was really interesting, thank you!
Yeah as someone who's also Ace I'm fine with having sex in a relationship as long as there isnt pressure applied. I realized I was ace when while being stressed and having relationship tension I just couldn't get turned on... That relationship wasnt great though and consent was weird with them being good about some aspects and less so about others.
I think the wheel and the idea of authentic consent helped me too as an ace! I feel really uncomfortable having stuff done to me, and although I'm not enthusiastic I wouldn't mind doing other things, so realizing what quadrants applied to me, and that I don't need to force myself to feel something I can't feel was kind of nice!
"I wanted to get rid of the aggression" "I felt like I owed it to the person" and "my partner kept insisting" all sound quite concerning....
I agree for all the reasons you mentioned that it doesn't have to be enthusiastic all of the time and can be not linked with desire, but it also should never be connected to fear or coercion!
I don’t think she was condoning these reasons
@@emmeline-tyler where did I say she did? I just commented on them because they were mentioned!
I think the people who wrote it should probably analyse themselves a bit. But I also think it's interesting to think about whether these reasons would reallg mean there was no consent.
For example, I've had sex before because I thought I owed it to people for being willing to date someone as ugly as me. I fully agree that this was not psychologically healthy on my end. But in no way does it say anything about the people I had sex with. It was not their duty to work out why I was saying yes, imo.
I think this defo links to the idea of consensual bad sex. Coercion is definitely present in the last one but the first two can be more ambiguous e.g. ‘i wanted to get rid of the aggression through positive consensual roughhousing’ or ‘i felt like i owed it to the person because i wanted to give them a good time before i went away for xx amount of time’.
Something that was really important for me when I had sex for the first time was that my boyfriend pushed me a little. I wasn't having sex because I was scared and after my first refusal instead of completely backing off (like the boyfriend I had beforehand) he encouraged me to try it, told me it would be okay and did various things to make me feel super safe. I'm really glad he did that because I was actually ready to have sex, I was just scared. I don't know how to fit that into consent, I think on paper many people would have said his pushing me was wrong. But that was the must validating and consensual relationship I've ever had. I can be someone who's scared of doing new things and I need a push
As someone who has been told by a few people, particularly my second partner, that my first serious and sexual relationship was wrong and that I's being exploited, even though I know this to be false, I empathise.
Also, there's this really good quote from a play I saw recently that I think is useful to think about in these situations. A university professor had an affair with a student and when it had ended, the student told him,
"It felt like it was happening from your point of view," to explain how she felt exploited.
However the details sound to others, I did not feel like my first relationship happened purely from my partner's point of view. I felt like my reality was their concern, and I think that's a really important and powerful consideration.
You can convince someone without coercing them. You were scared of what it was going to be like and that makes sense considering how dangerous sex can be for women. As long as the sex took place in a safe and caring way it's likely fine as the main thing was that you werent hurt by the event and found it empowering.
I’m happy that worked for you but for me it would still feel like coercion or that my partner’s main goal was to have sex with me. Like no is no, I don’t need a push.
This is interesting to me because I had a sort of similar experience with my first sexual encounter, although for me I genuinely wasn’t ready but was gently convinced into it because I thought I should be ready. It wasn’t assault, I didn’t say no, but it really has made me think over the years about enthusiastic consent and what that looks like for me. Not discounting your experience AT ALL, I just think it’s a testament to how consent is probably different for each person and it should be talked about in a new relationship.
@@Alice-si8uz how is convincing different than coercion? Most of this comment section is giving guys the go ahead to cross boundaries and “convince” their girlfriends to have sex when they don’t want to. OPs experience is an exception, not the rule. Why was he so eager anyway? Is waiting and revisiting the conversation later too much for him? Lots of girls don’t know how to stand their ground unfortunately, so I don’t think OPs boyfriend’s behavior should be encouraged.
A bit of perspective on "no means no", from someone who is decidedly not young. Back in the dark ages, we had a horrible amount of good-girl/slut dichotomy. You may have heard the lady/diplomat joke, that ends "and a lady who says 'yes' is no lady". People actually thought that way, to a much greater degree than they do now. If "no" means no, they you shouldn't pressure people to say "no" when they mean 'maybe', or when they mean 'probably, but I want us to go through the usual social rituals first'.
Uh, I remember the lady/diplomat joke.
That's really, interesting- like the song 'baby it's cold outside' they go through all the reasons why she has to go so she can be seen to be putting up a bit of a fight in an era where women couldnt just say 'yes'. We all should be fighting for womens sexual liberation, because the mindset that women cant just say 'yes' makes it hard to distinguish between when a 'no means no', or when a 'no means yes but I have to give some of a fight for presentation but really up for it' or a ' no, but now I am saying yes because I fear physical violence if I continue to say no'.
And enthusiasm cant be the deciding factor because in the later example one may pretend enthusiasm as a defense mechanism to prevent further abuse or violence as a way of placating someone-specifically in threatening situation or abusive relationship.
Alot to keep in mind for sure on how culture affects our thinking!
This just made me wonder whether if we're taught that we can't say "no" as children to actions our family members direct at us (e.g. kisses, hugs) affects our understanding of consent. What about general actions we don't wanna do but aren't allowed to voice our disagreement for? Interesting.
I know for me that made me resent and dislike public displays of affection while also never mentioning that to partners. I was and am fine sexually but feeling ill everytime someone wants to hold hands isn't great for the relationship. I'm still unlearning the hugs mean somene is presuming on me thing and part of that is saying get off me if someone hasn't asked. One good thing about covid no more uninvited hugs.
Absolutely. I am teaching my preschooler that he doesn’t owe anyone hugs and kisses
As someone who is super interested in attachment theory and childhood trauma, our feeling of freedom to say no as adults is *definitely* related to our childhood upbringing, in my opinion. It's incredibly common for people to grow up with adults who themselves have poor boundaries (mental, emotional, physical, resource, time, etc.) and transfer that onto their children.
@@silentlyjudgingyou I have a pretty big problem with being touched unexpectedly and also with PDAs. My previous partner would interpret the latter as me being ashamed of them, and I had to explain multiple times that it was actually nothing to do with them.
I wish covid had made people stop touching me, but I'm blind and get grabbed by well-meaning strangers when I'm out of the house. My own aversions plus the fact that my partner is immuno-compromised makes this incredibly stressful.
“Why don’t you hug/kiss your grandmother/aunt/uncle/whatever?? That’s your FAMILY.”
I experience exclusively responsive desire, it's never spontaneous. It's just not something I think about on my own most of the time. This means that I'm not in the mood for sexual activity until it's already started for a little while. So I don't have enthusiastic consent at the start of sex because I don't feel the desire for a few minutes. I do know that I will most likely begin to have the desire so I will either respond to or instigate an encounter with that in mind. I also know that if the responsive desire does not happen after a few minutes as is usually does, I can then revoke consent. So I think authentic consent makes more sense to me.
i'd never heard of that but that makes so much sense! thanks for sharing!
I'm like this too! I try to remain receptive and open unless I'm certain I don't want anything to happen. I do struggle to initiate though as its just never on my mind, any tips for that?
@@harrietphipps4862 yeah I'm the same, I don't really initiate and I think at first my partner felt I wasn't interested because of that. But I think if you're honest with your partner about having only responsive desire that helps, so they know that you're not just faking it when they want to have sex.
I wanted to point out the same as Hannah talked about that too! Good comment
Sounds like you may be a reciprosexual, maybe? Tho that is more on the grounds of sexual attraction than sexual desire. A reciprosexual is only capable of feeling sexual attraction for someone who is firstly attracted to them. It could be a varation of it, if it only happens with the desire and not the attraction itself
The wheel of consent is a game changer. Such a helpful illustration. Thanks for explaining all the different schools of thought so clearly
Another thing I feel enthusiastic consent misses out on is that many people find that arousal builds AFTER sexual activity/foreplay begins and not before.
I believe it’s called reactive sexuality. I rarely find myself randomly in the mood, so using the enthusiastic consent model I’d never truly “consent” to sex. However I find that a lot of the time, just by starting activities the arousal comes. Of course, sometimes it doesn’t, and I state this, after which the activity promptly stops.
Yes, it's a spontaneous libidio vs a responsive one.
Yeah but I also think sometimes ppl jump the gun so to speak bc asking someone if they want to have sex/any sexual activity before anything happens is a little premature unless you're just doing a spontaneous hookup right there and then where time is limited.
I was recently in a situation where I explained that I don't always verbalise a lot during sex or play. To the other person it may have seemed like I was unenthusiastic or something was wrong, but I was focusing on the physical sensation.
So I think "enthusiastic" can sound as though you literally have to sound as if you're buzzing and are projecting that to the other person(s), which is quite a lot for some people who may be depressed or have communication difficulties.
Or on the autism spectrum . I don't even know what enthusiastic looks like...I will tell them if I'm interested, or if I'm willing, and expect the same of them .
My past partner would do this. He was incredibly quite and would get lost icompatibility. Not a bad thing at all. But I appreciated more vocality so. It's just a matter of different needs, preferences, and compatibilities.
I feel like the concept of “authentic consent” basically takes us round in a circle. The reason we moved away from concepts like “no means no” towards “yes means yes” was precisely because we were trying to create a concept of what authentic consent is (since it’s still so hard for some people to grasp apparently).
I guess I’m trying to say that authentic consent was already the question we were trying to answer with concepts like enthusiastic consent. The points as to why it’s insufficient were really good and I totally agree. I just wonder if we can encapsulate the concepts of what makes consent authentic into a marketable package, for lack of a better term.
If someone was trying to ask you if you think a signal they’re getting is consent it’s easy to ask questions like “Is it an enthusiastic yes?” but asking “Is it an authentic yes” is a lot harder to interpret correctly.
As you say though, it’s impossible to create a generalised rule for consent since there are so many different factors at play. Maybe it makes more sense to have authentic consent be a framework for educating people on safe sex and the term serves as a reminder of all the teachings rather the term itself being the teaching, if that makes sense.
stars:: There are laws involved here Careers can be ruined, families can be broken up, and 0people can even end up in prison and, at least in the USA, as lifetie carriers of sex offender cards, which make normal life impossible, if they are considered to have had non-consensual sex. Given the stakes, we have to have very clear rules about what is and is not legal consent. within that, opinions can vary as to what is the right kind of consent. But if somebody said yes just because they did not want to seem to be rude, well, that is still consent, and it/s kinda on them if they didn't like it. But know should always mean no.
Sex work is interesting. Because let be honest, do we really 'consent' to work, or because we got bills to pay?
@@dickiewongtk yeah a lot of lefties call work "wage slavery" (and actually Republicans in the U.S. used this term first a while ago, believe it or not), so I get your point
@@dickiewongtk And would that make even a difference?
The people violating consent know when it’s not authentic, & they don’t care. It’s good for people to learn about these different forms of consent, so that they can understand their own feelings, expose predators, & support survivors. For people who actually care about the consent of their partner, in the end you just need to be someone they can feel safe denying, then you can trust them when they say “yes.”
As someone who identifies on the asexual spectrum I love the idea of authentic consent! Because sometimes I'll consent even though I don't feel the desire but want to participate for my partner
Sorry if the question is too much, but does that allways feel right to you?
and to your partner?
@@heliosho my partner always worries that I don't really want it when we do participate but I never participate when I really don't feel like it! And then like Hannah talked about we talk about like "I'm willing to participate in this but not this right now" it's all about communication and so I don't really feel bad for saying yes when I'm not really feeling desire because my partner doesn't pressure me to participate
Yup, that's my experience too.
Growing up with the message that I couldn’t say no or set boundaries with my parents or the adults in my life most definitely carried onto my sexual experiences. I always thought I needed to “just get through it,” even if I did try and say no. I’m slowly learning in regular life to say no and keep boundaries I want. It’s hard!
Whilst getting into bdsm I’ve learned how critical communication and consent is and how I need to be able to be comfortable to say no in order to engage in those activities. It’s a very interesting learning process. I think bdsm can be a very helpful healing tool when done properly.
Bdsm helped me a lot with verbalizing clearly what i want and what i dont.
But u have to have a trusted partner! If u are already easy to influence/have problems setting boundaries and than get to a toxic/abusive partner, bdsm can be time bomb.
100% agree with you and with the other commenter who advocated for someone you can trust and being good with boundaries beforehand.
Sometimes it's actually just hard to give an enthusiastic consent. I was on a date with this guy I've crushing on for so long, and at one point he asked to kiss me. I'm inexperienced, haven't had a real relationship yet (I'm a young adult btw) and romantic situations make me very nervous and very shy and even tho I wanted him to kiss me, I couldn't bring myself to verbally ask him to do it
I think in this situation, a nod will suffice.
@@wotchermystic2335 yeah as long as its some kind of affirmative response... they could even explain afterwards that giving permission like that is difficult for them and find some way to have a yes and no for the relationship...
As a sex-pos ace person this conversation resonates so much with me and some of my uncomfortablities surrounding sex. I also love how inclusive you are of ace people in your videos, we aren't usually included in these conversations because people think we're all celibate or just don't know we exist. Love your videos 💕
I'm sry, & I am in no way being sarcastic,comical, or anything else like that, I'm genuinely asking because I do not know but want to know...what exactly do you mean by "sex-pos ace person"? What does this mean?
@@marioncaffroy7045 hi I'm also a sex postive ace person so I hope I can answer. At the bare minimum, asexual people experience no sexual attraction (some people feel no sexual feelings at all in any sense and some people can see feel turned on and everything in between). Just because you don't experience sexual attraction, doesn't mean you can't have sex. You might like how it feels, it might make you feel closer to a partner, it might be something you do for someone else because you know they like it. There can be a million other reasons. Sex pos ace people are asexuals that can, do, or are willing to have sex. Asexuality is a spectrum, so I hope I condensed it enough while still being understandable!
(Edit: there are different forms of asexuality where some people (like demi sexuals) do experience sexual attraction so "bare minimum" is not the correct set of words. It was used to simplify language and give a base definition)
heyyyooo me too
@@EvieLupine also love your videos 💕
Yes! As an ace person, Everytime I mention I'm on the asexual spectrum people just assume I don't want sex or have no sex drive which isn't true at all. And being ace makes relationships and sex so much more confusing and complex, I wish there was more conversations about this!
thank you for covering this! This is one of my favorite topics to think about ahaha.
Hey Evie
You talk in your videos about being asexual. That makes me think sexual consent would not be so interesting to you. Guess I thought wrong!
Omg hi Evie! Love your videos :)
@@zeldamage001 I think you got asexual wrong. She didn't say she was celibate. Asexual people have sex but for one reason or another they are not sexually motivated.
@@hannahwitton
As someone who has dealt with often severe depression for much of my life, I've never been a fan of the "enthusiastic" consent model. There have been times in my life where I couldn't muster "enthusiasm" for anything but I still wanted to have sex. My consent given then was no less real simply because my brain chemicals were out of whack.
Same but with anxiety. I can really want to do something but not feel “enthusiastic” because literally everything makes me anxious
If you are a guy, it doesn't matter. Under the current narrative, you cannot be roped. As a guy, you are the responsible party when having s3x. If both people are drunk, the man has roped the woman. Your feelings and wants are irrelevant. Even with the utmost care for a partner, you could rope them if you don't follow all the rules, or she decides to revoke consent later.
This is such a great take on consent that doesn't just narrow it down to enthusiastic consent. You're really helping relieve anxiety around consent in a sexual context so thank you 💖
I appreciate this new framework of authentic consent and i would further it to call it authentic AND INFORMED consent. whether it's information being withheld from a partner, certain levels of sobriety, or even lack of education about sex and consent itself, I do think there are situations where someone could give authentic consent but might not be giving fully informed consent
Love this addition, and yes, I totally agree about the informed part.
I was reading Ace by Angela Chen, and how there is a concept called "hermeneutical injustice" where someone can experience harm due to lack of knowledge that is systemic in nature. Her example was that of an asexual person who wasn't aware of the concept of asexuality and was under the impression that sex is as given in a relationship, which is a kind of lack of informed consent in not knowing that you don't have to have sexual attraction or have any form of sex.
@@KnickKnackPatty So how do you know, what another person doesn't know? So you date a person and have a relationship and at the end it turns out that person was asexual and was just 'going through the motion' because they wanted emotional connection with you and thought that sex was part of the parcel. Does that mean that you - under authentic and informed consent - committed sexual assault / rape? If so, should you be put on trial and go to jail for it?
@@Der_Thrombozyt Hmmmm. That's a hard question. Thanks for asking, since it's got me thinking. From my personal perspective， that's a complex question.
I think , you can consent at the time and have sex because you feel like you should (even if you're going through the motions), and regret having done it later or mourn the fact that you didn't know you have to. If you're feeling pressured and don't speak up about it, there is the beginnings of the gray area - is it consent? Maybe? Depending on what model you're using? Who's responsibility is it to make sure everyone is safe, informed, comfortable - I'd hope/argue that everyone plays a role: from yourself to look up on the internet or ask around when you're not comfortable, with someone you care about, with the people who raise you, the education system, etc but a lot of those people or resources don't teach you about these things... And that's where videos like this is a good start
I've sent this video to a few friends to start the conversation going, especially those who aren't ace, but are beginning to understand some of that experience through me. But the ace spectrum is wide, and like this video says, there are hundreds of different reasons to have sex. Not all aces are sex repulsed. And there is a difference between being sexually attracted to someone, deciding to have sex with them, and having a high libido/sex drive.
Is it rape? It could definitely feel like rape if you're having unwanted sex, you feel coerced, you feel like you have no other choice etc... Would this be able to be proven in court? Most likely not (at least not in the country I'm in, or any that I'd know of), since ignorance usually isn't a good defence for a lot of types of cases.
@@Der_ThrombozytI realized there's more of your questions I didn't answer 😅
How do you know what another person doesn't know? You ask!
Especially around sex, in my experience, you talk about it , expectations, and boundaries, before you approach anything physical. For some people, that might be abundantly cautious and not what they want to do, but for me, it's been integral to feeling safe.
Having been in an ace-allo (asexual - allosexual where allosexual refers to anyone who does feel sexual attraction) relationship (but knowing and fully disclosing I am ace and what that means from the get go) is different from people I've talked to where they're in a relationship and then find out they're ace. The process of bringing it up and navigating it is a tough one. There's often grief for not knowing, questioning in hindsight how valid that consent was, regret, uncertainty, anger, and doubt. And that's not just on the part of the person who found out they're ace, but also their partner. Then, there can be a lot of discussion, if they all feel like this is something worth talking about and exploring. Asking questions like: is sex something that stays a part of this relationship? How do we consent moving forwards? For the ace person, do they still want sex? Having sex for emotional & physical intimacy is a valid reason for having sex. That's part of the authentic and informed framework of consent. And then sometimes leading to questions like, if the ace person doesn't want to have sex as often or ever, what does it mean for the allo person & their wants/needs? Is it a deal breaker? Can they talk about opening their relationship and/or polyamory to get their sexual needs met? Maybe sex the act isn't as important as the emotional relationship? Maybe there's some compromise where some parts of sex are ok, and other parts the ace person would rather not/only wants it very infrequently/sets a hard no?
There are countless of situations, and each are difficult in their own ways to navigate. It's about building the psychological safety to talk about these things with partners or other people, and to find the language to communicate.
I've been really lucky to find online communities where people talk about the nuances of being asexual and/or aromantic (to throw in another identity, aromantic are people who experience little to no romantic attraction) and how they navigate sex and dating/relationships, which is why I can share some of those insights with you today :)
@@KnickKnackPatty Thank you for taking considerable time detailing your view. I fully agree, that communicating needs/desired/boundaries is super important. Everyone involved in sex should treat everyone else involved with respect and compassion.
However, consent rules divide sharply into sex and assault/rape. The proposed 'informed consent' model just piles on the requirements for sexual activity. Requiring to verify age, sobriety, IQ and a full sex ed course knowledge basically means the end to any sexual activity outside of long term relationships.
Or flipped on it's head:
Do you think that any model that brands the vast majority of sex as assault/rape is feasible?
If you present enthusiastic consent to most happily married couples the fall over laughing so hard, because you are telling them they are constantly raping each other and are liking it!
I think I have to partially agree with Stars that authentic consent doesn't seem like much of a practical answer. The progression from No means No, to Yes means Yes, to Enthusiastic, to Authentic consent definitely does more to capture the nuances and pressures surrounding consent, but at the cost of clarity in practice. An explicit No or Yes is unambiguous, but determining enthusiasm is a bit more vague (at least for my brain that likes to be able to prove things). And although authentic consent definitely seems like the closest that we've got to an ideal model, it is also the muddiest to use. That said, I think it is still useful to have a name and description for it, since it gives us something to clarify and to work on putting into practice.
It sounds to me like this is an issue of taking an intuitive idea of what consent is and making it explicit. It may help to think in terms of necessary and sufficient conditions for something to be consent. For the unfamiliar a necessary but insufficient condition is one that must be met, but is not enough on its own for something to be consent. While a sufficient but not necessary condition is one that definitely meets the idea of consent, but may not be the only way to meet it. Best as I can tell, enthusiastic consent is sufficient, but not necessary, as demonstrated by some of Hannah's examples. So I think it would be helpful to try and figure out what some of the necessary conditions are. And that will really help narrow down the gray area, and aid in understanding. I think about this kind of clarification a lot.
I think the best and most practical thing is to do is to start from enthusiastic consent as the sort of baseline, and allow for some exceptions. Not that I have any real idea of what I'm talking about.
Obviously the most practical thing to do is to require both parties to read and sign a 3 page consent form then get it signed by a lawyer.
I mean, what Authentic Consent says is basically to use common sense to determine if the other person wants (in broader sense) to have sex, on top of requiring explicit consent. That way, determining consent becomes like any other social skill, which most people are fairly good at.
Have you ever gone through your own sexual experiences and classified them into 'consenting' and 'assault' based on each model? Even Yes means Yes produces shocking numbers of assault if you require an explicit unambiguous Yes.
I'm teaching my grandchildren these things (outside of sexual contexts for now since they're 7 and under):
No means no.
Silence means no.
If you haven't asked, it means no.
Don't means no.
Stop means no.
Asleep means no.
And it means no the first time.
I'm trying to evolve both mine and their understanding.
But teach them that it is okay to ask why they said no. Do they dont want it in general? Just not now? Just not here? Or do they want me to do something first?
The no means no, often sounds as the talk is over at that point. But understanding why the ither person dont want something, can be crucial for the learning
I think teaching them "It's OK to say No" is the key part.
@@arzuriakuroi5323you don't always need an answer so I wholeheartedly disagree because a boundary should be accepted regardless of it having a detailed explanation. The only times you need an explanation for something that's no is if it's work-related or it's about a general rule that isn't related to interpersonal relationships.
The more you know 🌈
Wonderful way to ruin sex for them
This was super interesting! I hadn't heard about the concept of authentic consent, but tbh that's what I thought enthusiastic consent meant. So I definitely learned something, thanks!
Yeah the way I see it is giving and receiving consent, where both parties are able to do so, in any form is the bare minimum from a legal position. I would still advocate enthusiastic consent as the gold standard, particularly for non-transactional one night stands or first time when dating or in a relationship. However, recognising that other forms of consent are still consent is necessary, not least because people shouldn't feel that they maybe weren't giving consent in the past just because they weren't jumping up and down in enthusiasm, and all the other things that might lead to mentally. It is complex because what you personally would really want to call consent in one context may change in another, and you shouldn't judge yourself on what level of enthusiasm you would give consent, or not have given consent, in the past or even in the future.
Enthusiastic consent isn't really related to your display of enthusiasm, but more related to the consent being unprompted.
I don't think I have ever heard sexworkers, asexual people and people wanting to get pregnant grouped together. Not that they are mutually exclusive, but an interesting facet nonetheless.
Hannah was stupid for even mentioning prostitutes
Authentic consent! I love it! The most important thing to me is agency, and this model focuses exactly on that. To truly respect a person is to respect their agency: their choices and their right to make those choices for reasons that are their own. Anything less is oppression, even if it is well-meaning.
As someone with no libido who has avoided sex because I don't experience typical arousal or seek it out but still have it, thank you so much. I've gone almost my whole life dreading talking about sex, because all it becomes is how I'm not good enough, or I'm a liar for saying that I want to have it because I'm built different. Sex has always felt like just berating, exactly because my partners all wanted enthusiastic consent from me. I of course did and do still consent. But every "Oh you like this too", "you're not doing this just for me right", "you feel good too right", "Hey do you really want this" felt like a slap to the face, with my partners wondering why I've become scarce. It's hard enough being a woman with no libido. It's even shittier still to be punished because I don't become aroused or I get avoidant, but then of course also punished when I DO have sex, BOTH because of things I cannot control.
So as a Doer and Giver, thank you! This puts into better words all that I've tried to say.
I knew something bugged me about the enthusiastic consent model! it doesn't include the "sure, I'll try it" that happens when you're exploring something new.
To answer your question. I'm demi-ace, bi, poly, and non-binary. I feel that sometimes I can enthusiastically consent. Sometimes I just want to make my partner happy but I myself don't really need the sex. I think, because I'm ace people assume I don't want sex and when they discover I have sex they just call me "picky." I do have PTSD from childhood sexual trauma and due to that I do like to know before having sex what kinds of acts we are going to do so I'm not at all surprised. I also like frequent check-ins during sex to make sure I'm still comfy. When I was younger and in my first relationship I thought I was broken and felt societally pressed to have sex and kept trying with my partner at that time and would cry a lot because it wasn't "ideal" sex. I've grown a lot and I find pleasure in my own version of sex, which is non-penetrative, and doesn't make me feel bad about myself. The good part to being demi is I only have sex with people I've known for at least half a year and fully trust, which makes me feel really safe. Not sure what kind of consent I'm describing though.
This might sound REALLY stupid, but I never really thought about or realized just how scientific every single aspect of sex is lol and not only the actual act itself, but everything that comes before as well after..its honestly mind boggling..but in a very positive way lol. 🤯 not only do I find everything that you/your channel does/represents to be extremely intriguing &worthwhile, I also really appreciate it and feel that it's absolutely necessary. It's so much more than just a "sex&relationship" channel...idk how to properly express what exactly it is I mean lol you/your channel, its great. Its perfect lol keep on keeping on. Lol
This is a problem I had with talk about Consent for a long time. Not only am I on the ace spectrum, but I also can't have heterosexual Penetrative Sex due to Vaginism. Due to that my Partner and I experiment frequently with different stuff in the Bedroom, like oral, bdsm, or him getting penetrated. The last one is especially interesting for me, since I'm Non Binary and that kinda lets me explore my Gender in Relation to my Sexuality.
So in multiple Situations neither of us are really that "enthusiastic" about Sex but we're still excited to explore how something affects the other one. And in a lot more Situations one party gets kinda "talked into" Sex but it's not because they're unsure about the Sex act itself, but rather things related to what's proposed, like needing to clean up a body part before or after.
Because of this I often find myself confused by information about Consent, because we're both fully consenting every time, yet so often our consent looks different from what is portrayed as "good consent"
not gonna lie i wish i had 0 libido. sex seems too complicated and i just want to stop wanting it
Aren't they multiple effective ways to solve vaginism nowdays?
"needing to clean up a body part" brought a different image to mind then intended. 👀😂
I think it’s important to tell people to say “no” to sex AS LONG AS it’s about empowering them and letting them know they have that power, AND there’s no shame or blame if they failed to say “no.” I wouldn’t be surprised if sex ed programs missed this mark, but I do think saying no should be encouraged. Even in all other social contexts, society would be a better place if we made things more abundantly clear.
If they failed to say "no" and said "yes" that is legally consent. It's important people don't get sent to jail just because their partner is a timid and agreeable person.
This is such a good and important video. As someone who has trouble figuring out what im feeling when, my first relationship was a huge mess in no small part because when i asked for advice on how to handle complications during intimate situations: peoples reactions would range from acting like i got assaulted to telling me i needed to stand up for myself or simply being disapointed in me. Not to mention all the wellintentioned social media campaigning and that i was constantly bombarded w leaving me more confused than before. I dont know people just love to say that consent is easy to navigate when in my experience its incredibly confusing.
I really appreciated this video! As someone with vaginismus, my consent is often not enthusiastic because it hurts; there’s a downside to it, even though it’s something I want to do. This video was really validating!
This is one of your best break down videos in a while. This covers it in a intercourse lense but we can also apply this to other interactions. Including online media during this age. Thank you for giving people the 101 if you will of all the different models. I feel that this is where debates come up at the expense of the survivors lived experience. We need to not try and analyze others experiences but ask them what model of consent they use helps us make informed choices and communication styles. I feel like the way we view it shapes how we understand what we are talking about. Thank you endlessly for this one in particular.
Thank you for this video. Enthusiastic consent always seemed odd to me, as a married woman with a toddler, because there are times I'm not enthusiastic about sex, and often consent as someone who wants to be a giver to their husband because I want to give myself to him for his pleasure. I may not be entirely enthusiastic, but am openly consenting without force or persuasion.
This is exactly how I feel about it for the same reasons too. If we waited until I felt truly “enthusiastic” about it then we would just never have sex. I’m too tired these days to get excited over it lol but I do love my partner and like to make him feel good
The: Good. Some people do not realize (perhaps because this is not true for them) that for many people, the difference between sex and no sex is the difference between a pleasant life and a slow plodding trudge to the grave. At a certain point, if one person wants sex and the other is unwilling to give it, seeing other people should be permitted.
According to some feminist you are a slave to your husband.
With young children, it's hard to find time when both are available and enthusiastic.
Sometimes it's true that "appetite comes with food", where one is not enthusiastic at the beginning, but then ends up having fun anyway.
Other times one just gives pleasure to the other -- out of love, not feeling of obligation.
I see a problem only if this ends up being one-sided.
@@dickiewongtk Not if her husband is doing other stuff for her as well. She's only a slave if her husband does nothing in their marriage.
It is comforting seeing ace people recognized in consent conversations, cause it has made for a mess of trying to parse through some....not great situations...as someone who is in the repulsed camp but has been willing to try things in the past sometimes, and has been pressured other times. Thank you for this video, I expect I shall be sharing it with more than a few people in the future.
There are a lot of comments saying “ace people have sex”- yes but not always, NOT all ace people have sex or feel obligated to. I feel like this is a tricky video because there is a long, LONG history of corrective rape documented by asexual peoples and an overall pressure and sometimes complete coercion to have sex. So yes consent isn’t always “enthusiastic,” but I don’t think our society’s ace friendly enough to assume that an ace person’s consent isn’t still manipulated by the world’s standards and views on sex.
THANK YOU, particularly on the part about mentioning how a lack of enthusiastic consent often gets framed as a lack of consent entirely. I mentioned basically this same thing in a reddit thread and was downvoted to oblivion for acknowledging that you can consent to sex that you don't "want" to do, that was the specific wording and the context of the discussion. I suppose one could argue the problem is that "want" is kind of vague, but I absolutely think there are time when you don't "want" to do a sex act but still consent and have it not be rape. I've been bored during sex before and I would say personally that me being bored during sex is me not wanting sex in that moment because I would rather be doing something else, but I'm considerate enough to let my partner finish. Like yeah I'm not overly enthusiastic about what is going on but I certainly wasn't traumatized by any means and my partner certainly didn't do anything wrong. I feel like the very idea that you can have "bad sex" seems to imply that there is sex we don't want to do that is not rape. I also feel like there's that stereotypical thing of "oh it's my partner's birthday so I'll do that thing they like" which to me often reads as "I don't particularly enjoy this sex act, I would not seek it out, and I do not enjoy doing it very often even if my partner likes it, but because it is a special occasion I am willing to spoil my partner and indulge in something they like even if I'm not that into it" what you actually want is for your partner to be happy and fulfilled, the sex act itself is just a means to an end which if you didn't have to do it to get the response you want then you probably wouldn't. It's pretty similar to sex work in that much of the time what the worker wants is the compensation not necessarily the sex act and I don't think wanting a particular result or outcome can then be extrapolated to mean you wanted to do the necessary action to get it. People working at McDonalds generally probably do not want to flip patties, they want their paycheck and I don't think them wanting their paycheck means you can then say they actually do want to flip patties or something. Just because you want a particular end, doesn't mean you like or enjoy the means to get that end, but also just because you don't enjoy the means to your desired end doesn't mean it was traumatic to get there. People were just not hearing it though, they really did not want to acknowledge these shades of grey and would rather stick their heads in the sand and think it's only a binary of either enthusiastic consent or rape, even though that does not actually reflect how people have sex.
Thank you, this is a really great video. It's not an exaggeration to say the Wheel of Consent has changed my life for the better! If you were to add one further definition of consent it could be 'trauma aware' or 'power aware' consent as described my Milena Popova in her book 'Sexual Consent', which she defines as follows:
“When we move away from looking at consent as something that happens between individuals in a specific situation and start looking at it as something enmeshed in social structures, cultural practices, and complex operations of power, the radical potential of the idea of consent becomes really clear. This version of consent allows us to ask much bigger questions than who said yes and who said no. It allows us to start exploring the social and cultural forces that shape the options we have, how we see ourselves, how we are seen by others, right down to our very desires. It allows us to ask what the conditions are that we need to create for consent to be truly free, and truly meaningful.”
As an asexual person and specifically how I work, I would 100% need a divorce of the only way to consent would be enthusiastic consent. I am not enthusiastic for sex. Ever. I am happy to "show up" for my partner if I have the energy for it. The energy, not the enthusiasm. Its a good rule of thumb ofc, but I am doing it for my partner if I am able and it works perfectly for us.
I really like the idea of authentic consent, I've always thought enthusiastic was missing something. I really appreciate the list of why people have sex. The emotional side of sex is really more nuanced, it's not always a simple binary of yes and no. Really appreciate the video and thank you for the links!
In my literature class, one book has a sex scene where one character does not give consent. He is simply being told what he was going to have done to you. This video really helps for discussing this in class.
I became a pro at unenthusiastic consent in marriage. It was never about feeling pressured. It was about being sleepy/ stressed/ tired but understanding that sex would make my husband feel loved. And also understanding that, were the tables turned, he would come through for me.
Then we tried to conceive, unsuccessfully, for over a year. I definitely was the instigator in most of those encounters... although usually neither of us was enthusiastic.
People who prone enthusiastic or verbal consent imply that non-verbal or unenthusiastic consent is hard to discern. But the narrative that consent is difficult to identify is very dangerous. Any person who is functioning normally can tell when consent is not there. And any husband who does the 'roll and nudge' understands that, if his wife then proceeds to cuddle closer to him and remove her underwear, she's probably not saying 'no'.
I see what you're saying but I disagree on that last part about every sane person being able to understand subtle clues. Your husband obviously knows you and vice versa. You have years together and countless experiences that made him know when you do X you're consenting and it's not you saying yes begrudgingly or for some performative reason. Just bc that's your experience with your husband doesn't mean that goes for literally every couple or every person who just started dating someone new.
So please just speak for yourself and not everyone else.
Thank you! 😇
not sure if I agree that "Any person who is functioning normally can tell when consent is not there" - it begs the question what 'normal' is, and a lot of people do have different ideas of what constitutes implied consent.
For instance as a man I have felt entitled to people verbally communicating with me in the middle of physical intimacy if they didn't want to do anything sexual. Imo that entitlement stemmed from social norms around women not wanting to be explicitly asked, and expecting men to be 'dominant' and 'lead'. (and assuming that women were as capable of saying 'stop' or 'hold on' or pushing someone off as they are in media when sexual activity is unwanted)
I love the wheel of consent. As a cishet man with dominate tendencies, I like to Serve and Take at about a 3 to 1 ratio, and usually in that order. I've never been really able to express or understand that as fully before.
Thank you for sharing this. For someone that has been a victim of SV. Being called a survivor sounds like there was a way I could have stopped it
one of my friends has been struggling with "bad sex" as in he feels obligated to say yes because if he doesn't his partner will be sad, and he's just trying to avoid a big deal. and when I asked if he was sexually active with his partner and he phrased it "unfortunately so" and I'm going to show him this video because I wasn't able to explain consent as clearly as I wanted to and this even cleared some things up for me so thanks for letting me help my friend
do you think this kind of thing counts as assault?
I love all this so much! I wasn't familiar with the definition of authentic consent and it is really amazing. redefining what good sex (outside of the legal kind of consent) means for your individual situation is very important as well. I get so happy every time your videos pop up.
“i felt like i owed it to the person” “my partner kept insisting” and “it felt like the thing to do” don’t sound like unenthusiastic reasons to have consensual sex, they sound like coercion. i feel like reading those ones kind of undermined a point that is still otherwise valid.
so glad you ended with a bit on ethical sex. the part where you listed all the reasons people had sex and hearing some of them be "i felt like i had to" or "because i was married" didn't seem very healthy perhaps or good, and the idea of ethical sex where sure those could be reasons to have consensual sex doesn't mean you should do it? legality of the situation shouldn't be the only thing that stops you from doing it
Really informative video Hannah on a super important topic.
Personally speaking, I rarely have interest in initiating sex but I am often happy to consent to sex with my partner because its not a negative experience, makes them happy and I enjoy the intimate bonding experience.
Ultimately I think authentic consent is the best model, not just because it fits for me personally but is the most inclusive and accurate model for the many reasons people have sex without leaving any room for rape, sexual violence or coercion - which as you said, feels wrong to call 'sex' because it is so far away from what sex should be.
How the hell is this not standard learning material in sex ed classes?? My god you are so good, Hannah! Really wish you were my sex ed teacher!
I've always thought of consent as giving permission, for myself anyway. I realise it might not work for many people, but for me the idea of giving permission makes me feel in control.
this might be one of my favorite videos of yours! insightful and comprehensive ❤️
Back when I was married I took on board the "'no' means no" message, which made my wife furious when I took it as "'no' means leave me alone", rolled over and read a book. When we got down to discussing it, it turned out her meaning was "'no' means I'm not ready, I need more arousing, work at it". Come to think of it I don't recall any time she actually didn't want sex.
This is a fantastic video! Thank you so much for explaining the evolution of consent so concisely and clearly, it really helped me understand where we're at with the current "enthusiastic consent" idea and organise my thoughts around it. As an asexual person I've had some complex thoughts about consent, but the framework behind authentic consent makes so much more sense for me, thank you for introducing me to the idea!
I'd never heard about authentic consent, but as someone who is ace and sex-neutral I love that as a concept. There are so many reasons to have sex that don't necessarily require sexual attraction and enthusiastic consent always made me feel a little like I had to push myself to seem enthusiastic about sex. I also really like the wheel of consent -- it made me think about which of the quadrants I'm comfortable fitting in to, and which make me uncomfortable, which is a super helpful realisation, so thanks so much for sharing!
personally I just couldn't get down with someone who isn't enthusiastically consenting, but I can't pass judgement on anyone who chooses to consent without active desire (for all the reasons you listed and more). Authentic consent is a good framework
Maybe that explains it for you.
Just think of forplay. Forplay is, at least between me and my bf, often done before one really gets in the mood for sex, because my bf or i sometimes need that forplay to get in the mood in the first place.
So we are alredy half way to have sex, before we eben want it.
For example i am not in the mood, and my partner moans stuff into my ear and nibble on them.
And only through that i would get that active desire. But if he would have asked me 10 sec earlier, sex yes or no? I would have probably said no.
I’d only ever seen as far as enthusiastic consent before, and I’d never considered its pitfalls re sex work, so I learnt a new thing with authentic consent and the consent wheel thanks!
I grew up in a sexually open town (Woodstock, NY…☮️). There were no ‘rules’, but it was talked about openly. It was normalized.
Teachers used sex metaphors, discussed it in open forums, while also reprimanding us for being inappropriate. Ironically, this led to a very non-promiscuous high school where most sex was in relationships and had little to no violence.
Great video! Ive thought about this myself alot, it always felt weird to me that i had to be enthusiastic to consent. Sometimes I'm just okay with it, and being okay is definitely consent.
Your transitions during the reasons list were very jarring for me, and I had to look away. I'm probably not the only one who had this issue. Great video though! These are important conversations to have. Thank you for putting this out there
I'm so glad you covered the limits of enthusiastic consent! I am diagnosed with bipolar disorder, among other things, and that has a pretty substantial impact on my sex life. I can go from hypersexual to hyposexual over the course of a day or two, and stay in either mode for upwards of weeks or months. I'm married, I know that I typically like sex, and I love my husband and being physical with him. No, I'm not particularly enthusiastic or turned on when I'm in a hyposexual state (thank god for lube), but I want my husband to experience sexual pleasure (not in a "wifely duties" sort of way, just in a "I like when you scratch an itch when I'm itchy, and I like scratching your itches too" sort of way) and it's also not horrible to me by any means. I'm not writhing and moaning and showing much wild passion, but I'm also not NOT enjoying myself. It feels nice, like a massage lol. And to say I'm not consenting just because I'm not enthusiastic and dripping wet really removes my agency when it comes to how I want to use my own body.
I like the "enthusiastic consent" model, and I still think it should be taught in general sex ed and what people should try for, especially in the beginning of relationships. But it's way too narrow for people's actual sexual behavior. Open conversations between partners about boundaries and types of consent they can use in their relationship are ideal. For example, in the past I've told my partner that I am okay with them assuming consent and initiating when I am asleep, because I am a light sleeper and I feel able to safely withdraw that consent situationally. However, this has changed over time, and now that I usually take a strong sleep aid we have modified those boundaries.
So you give explicit and unprompted consent to any sexual activity with you partner? Because from my experience, that has never happened. I also don't give that kind of consent as a man that still burns for his wife.
I admire how passionate you are about the subject. You have so much energy.
6:45 - A few of those "reasons" don't sound very consensual to me.
I appreciate hearing your thoughts and some of the latest thinking on this. I’ve always operated on the principle of “don’t be a jackass.” It seems to cover most of the most important things.
Incredibly insightful on how consent has evolved and improved over time as well as a new perspective through the wheel! It helped contextualize actions so much more cleanly for my math/logic brain. Thank you Hannah!
If we're talking about the pitfalls of different standards of consent, it's worth adding that standards above affirmative consent (and even affirmative consent to a lesser degree) are rather ablist. Specifically, they're discriminatory against those who are less able to process and intuited the genuine nature of actions.
so someone with IQ of 20 can consent?
@@kaiyodei Barring the issue that IQ is a bad statistic, that's not what I was meaning. I was intending to reference autistic people or psychopathic people. Those with social processing issues.
As a philosophy nerd, I'm partial to the fourfold consent model at the end here. Fourfold conceptual models are always the best. So logical and yet open to application/interpretation. Hmm.
As for how it's to be expressed if the consent is to be (lawfully) believable/viable, I'd call it Negotiated Consent; as long as there's been an ethically, interpersonally driven negotiation and agreement on how/why the sex was to happen, authentic to each person involved, before, during, and/or after, whether in words or body language, to any degree (you could agree to just improvise and have a safe word, or not even that), then that's your evidence when negotiation failed or an agreement was broken.
From there, deciding the consequences of any bad stuff that's happened (talk it out, ghost someone, legal action, lawmaking, etc.) is a whole big other thing that a lot of the consent discourse and backlash seems mostly either apocalyptic or non-specific about. Which, to be fair, the mainstreamed discourse I'm getting on this, since I'm not in the expert community, has mostly been filtered through the backlash.
sex that's consensual but not "enthusiastic" has been on my mind lately and this just about answered all my questions x) thank you!
Thanks for a great video! I think ‘no means no’ came about because it used to be a cultural thing that women would demur because to say yes straight away would be bad for their reputations. So ‘no’ became the start of negotiations. But obviously we have moved on from that. I have always felt uncomfortable about enthusiastic consent. I just picture someone jumping on the bed with a big smile lol. I think one of the things enthusiastic consent was trying to get away from was the model of someone getting badgered and then finally saying ‘yes’. That’s not consent.
Love the idea of authentic consent.
I feel like one key consideration is totally missing from this discussion: Feasibility.
Think about your past 20 sexual encounters and then - by consent model - sort them into 'consenting sex' and 'sexual assault'.
No means No - Did either party say "No" to any activity and it still continued? If yes, it's sexual assault. For me that happened 0 out of 20.
Yes means Yes - Did both parties involved clearly and explicitly state "Yes" in response to a proposition of having sex? If not, it's sexual assault. It would mean me and my wife assault each other more often than not.
Enthusiastic consent - Did both parties clearly communicate consent without being prompted for each and every sexual activity? If not, it's sexual assault. Basically all sex I can think of would be classified as reciprocal sexual assault.
The other models proposed aren't better. How do you think, people will react, when you propose systems that criminalize the majority of the sex they have experienced to the mutual satisfaction all parties involved?
This actually made me think and refine my understanding of consent. Up until now I’ve always operated on and thought that the model of enthusiastic consent was the way to go, but you’ve broadened my understanding and made me think about how someone can consent to sex without necessarily being enthusiastic about it, like you said with sex workers and people trying to get pregnant.
I thought it stoping at enthusastic consent made sense enough but i can see why its more complicated than that and goes beyond that now and that makes more sense thank you
this is probably the best video about consent that I've ever seen!
I think the inability to say no directly to small as well as big things is more of a thing in England, with its emphasis on polymers and indirect communication than in the USA. I think that here it is easier to say "No thanks. I'm kind of tired tonight" or whatever.
I thought the contract I signed to buy my house was complicated until I saw your video.
During the pandemic a friend of mine and I moved further into an emotional and sexual relationship, with me being the dominant one. I would prefer to speak and reach an agreement about further sexual activity in person rather than by text or call, but from what we've discussed about our kinks and interests I'm absolutely sure that they would accept a blanket consent agreement for free use, as well as CNC encounters. Consent is very complex and interesting, and this is a great introductory video! Always discuss with your partners what your limits are, what you would like to do and make sure to keep a healthy relationship!
I'd never thought about the narrowness of "enthusiasm". I think my 6 words has been trimmed down to 4.
*Sober, informed consent of a peer.*
Sober: the consent must be given while the person is sound of mind. This means not inebriated by alcohol or drugs, but it also means not under other influences such as duress, social pressure, or even extreme emotions or passions. This includes hounding someone until they give in. Now, having sex while not sober can be perfectly consensual, but the consent, imo, cannot be given while in an altered state of mind. "Let's get drunk and fuck" is an acceptable invitation to have sex while not sober.
Infrormed: both parties should be informed of risks, conditions, and expectations of the other participant(s). There are no surprises during sex. Fertility status, STI status, and expectations during and AFTER sex should be known by all parties. Desired acts should also be communicated which means that during sex negotiation the medical status of a person's genitalia should be disclosed. Especially if you have damaged or atypical presentations that could have medical or health consequences if not dealt with properly. This is especially tricky for us trans folk, especially given the DEEP currents of transphobia in our society, but again, people need to know which acts they are agreeing to. Trans siblings, please do this somewhere where you can easily get assistance should the response become violent or hurtful. 💙💜🤍💜💙
Consent: Pretty simple. The decisive, intentional, proactive choice to engage in an activity with someone and allow them to engage in an activity with you. Anytime you do not have a choice, or your choice is unduly influenced by outside factors, it is not consent. I may expand it to "free consent" or "freely-given consent" to make this more explicit.
Peer: This used to be "adult" or "adult human", but that ignores the sexual agency of two minors or other existing power imbalances. Employers, superiors, adults with minors, or people in any place of authority should not solicit, or agree to, sex with anyone they hold power over- unless there are ethical circumstances that nullify the disparity of power such as partners who are partnered before the power imbalance exists, for instance. Yes, this raises other ethical concerns of nepotism and favouritism but those are ethical concerns of those spheres of activity, not in the sex act itself.
It is possible to give consent in a power imbalance if all parties are able to freely disregard the power imbalance and make an informed choice, but it is not possible to determine if that is the case from an outside perspective. Also, permitting such relationships deteriorates our ability to prohibit abusive power-imbalance relationships. As heart-breaking as a given situation may be, consent given under a power imbalance cannot be accepted. Ever.
It troubles me how many men are in here flat out refusing to believe that people can say ‘yes’ when they mean ‘no’ because they have been socialised to not say no. Ffs. Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean we are making it up
From what I've seen, women tend not to be enthusiastic. Rather, when they want intimacy (be it sex or just kissing) they make no effort to let the man know and instead expect him to be a mind reader.
For instance, I once went on a few dates with a woman. At the end of the second or third date, I finally kissed her. Afterwards, she went cross at me for having taken so long to finally kiss her! She had begun to wonder if I even wanted to kiss her. The thing is, up until that moment she had given me ZERO signs that she wanted me to kiss her. She didn't flirt with me or anything, she just coldly and robotically existed in my presence.
Another time, I went to a woman's house to have sex. But, when I got there she was watching tv and she ignored me. We got through 3 whole episodes of Ghost Whisperer before I finally forced myself to anxiously put an arm around her. She ignored me. Eventually, I leant my head against her shoulder. She ignored me. I finally kissed her neck. She ignored me. Finally, I plucked up the courage and kissed her cheek. She turned her head toward me and kissed me on the lips. I don't know why she spent the whole time giving me zero signals and acting with zero enthusiasm. I nearly didn't even bother trying. Worst still, she blamed me for not simply jumping on her as soon as I came in the door. The behaviour that she had expected and demanded of me is the sort of behaviour that women complain about men doing.
Wow what u described sounds really odd.
I agree that woman sometimes dont give clear signals/ dont want to make first steps.
But normally a women will react, especially if u head in the right directions, for example u flirt, she flirts back. U lay your arm around u, she come a bit closer etc.
But what u describe is definetly not the norm. Or at least not around me xD
@@arzuriakuroi5323Yeah but what about women saying grape is bad yet they have grape fantasies
What about women saying they are afraid of getting killed yet they send love letters to serial killers
Dude, this is a gem. I wish this was a video shown in school.
The times I had the best sex always started with a discussion of what we're going to do, what we want or don't etc. I got the idea from the way things work in the BDSM community but it's so useful for all sex. That to me is ethical consent, making sure everyone is okay with whatever is happening, regularly checking in to be sure and discussing afterwards. Even in more transactional instances.
YES! The whole "no means no" thing is like the very basics of consent and just bc someone doesn't say no explicitly doesn't mean that they've consented
Exactly this.
I affirm that as adults, we consent to things all the time, but rarely enthusiastically so.
However, that’s why I think our understanding of consent must come down to mutual, verbal agreement - not an assumed one. And absence of consent should be enough to allege an assault or violation.
The sometimes subtle or changing presence of consent is the social problem that I think “enthusiastic consent” is trying to solve - but it doesn’t. Because even though consent can usually be revoked at any time, in any area of our lives where we give it, it is usually only given - once. And that is, at the onset of the activity. It is not re-solicited on an hourly or minute-by-minute basis, nor is that a practical expectation.
Obviously, consent isn’t a priority to maleficent predators, but for those who care - who do not want to cross a boundary due to simple lack of understanding - we need to teach dual consent and agreement - and we need to believe that it’s OK to teach young adults to use their voices and overcome fear-freeze responses, and that doing so is not blaming anyone.
New here. I liked the video a lot. I am to used to see this discussion mixed with politics and is refreshing to watch a conversation that tries to analyze the topic and not only blaming the other side.
Thanks for this video. The problems with the enthusiastic consent model, particularly those around asexual people and sex workers, have always bothered me a bit, and I'm happy to be introduced to authentic consent.
This is also the first time I've seen this wheel, but I totally agree about the thrill of quadrant focusing. I can comfortably occupy any (or a combination) to varying degrees, but using Serve as an example: just focusing really hard on the pleasure my partner is experiencing and myself/my body as the source of that pleasure is a pretty wild stimulant. Better than a fair chunk of the physical sensations, certainly.
Oh... thanks. As an ace person, the framework of enthusiast consent always rubbed me the wrong way. It's nice to hear someone else notice this and put it into words. And for someone to assure me that I could consent to sex if I wanted to, even if I don't ever plan on it and I wouldn't be able to be enthusiastic.
You cannot just redefine consent in a way that negates the inherent violence in sex work. I agree that there is a difference between doing something that you agreed on (for money) and rape (in general or during sex work). Still, having sex with a person without really wanting it can be traumatizing and the risk of getting rape is really high for most forms of prostutition. If we would tread sex work like every other job or if we would expect the same safety requirements in prostitution as in mens jobs, it would not be allowed anywhere. (It at least is legal where I live - still there are young women getting kidnapped)
Love the idea of authentic consent (it’s the framework I’ve applied to my sex and kink life but didn’t have the term for it).
Been learning about Wheel of Consent in my ISEE classes, and I love how you explain it!
this is such a cool video, it talks about a lot of important things that i didn't learn until after high school. i hadn't heard of the phrase authentic consent but kind of subconsciously understood that it has to exist because of some of the examples you listed. i wonder if this type of video could be shown in a high school sex ed class because i think it would do so helpful to people that age.
yasss finally! I keep saying that not all consent is enthusiastic, I even made a reel about it recently for Brook's theme! it's subjective and THANK YOU for reminding me that it was Dr Nadine T who spoke about authentic consent, i couldnt remember where I saw it on Insta!
Thanks!
"I got that calendar i know when things are happening now" is such a mood
I love it when you bring quotes and theories to the videos!