audio down bad cause my webcam picked up my audio rip me. here is my written video response to this video: The Jaegerberg Theory ua-cam.com/video/uGSG1ZCjwk4/v-deo.html
Eren also says that he didn’t know if he was gonna be stopped but was going to keep moving forward anyway chapter 139 is just so bad written lmao he says it was his plan to make them look like the hero but then also says this in the same chapter 😭
@@fdtc1234 this is explained in Invaderzz video. Before he started the rumbling, he wasn’t sure if he was gonna be stopped. After he got the power of the founding titan and started the rumbling, he saw the whole future and realized he would be stopped, which caused him to change his ultimate goal from flattening the world to making his friends look like heroes of the world.
@@xancarey9993 first of all making his friends hero will never work and if it is then thats some next level BS and second lets say they did the only reason the outside world accepted their peace is to buy time for them to recover and replenish their industrial might and destroy the devils at the island once and for all. Strategic planning
He couldn't have convinced them to join the yeagerists because by the point that he learned they were going to stop him the rumbling had already been activated and he was a hulking monstrosity
In the conversation with Reiner during Willy Tybur's speech, you can clearly see the moment he accepts that he has to destroy the world, that's when Willy talks about destroying Paradis to erase the "Island devils". He realized that civilization outside the walls would never allow him to have his freedom, the opportunity to explore the outside. To live without being caged and without fear of an impending doom.
The problem with claiming that the ending we got was the only possible one, when dealing with pre-determined timelines and paradoxes, is that they only become inevitable when we see/know the whole picture. That basically means that, until we’re aware of where the story will go, Isayama could have made it go anywhere and called it inevitable. He could have just as reasonably and logically made it inevitable that Eren would have completed the rumbling by taking away their power to stop him. That also aligned with his goals and would have kept them safe. And all that would have had to change for it to make sense is for Eren to not have seen his defeat when he gained the power of the founder, which was something that we only knew he knew in the final chapter, something that easily could have been omitted. So basically, the issue is that ultimately Isayama had complete control over which direction the story would ‘inevitably’ go in, despite not necessarily having to lay the groundwork for all of it until after the fact. That’s convenient for him and definitely fits with his style of retroactively giving new perspectives on the past story through twists, but it doesn’t necessarily feel like good/compelling storytelling. He clearly had an agenda with how he wanted it to end, and the mechanics of the story allowed him to insert that, rather than requiring him have the story go where it most naturally would have gone. For example, why was it that Eren’s goal of protecting his friends overrode his goal of experiencing freedom, when he could have achieved them both by prioritizing experiencing freedom and just taking their titan powers and means of pursuing him away? The only real reason was because Isayama chose to prioritize that in that moment. And don’t get me wrong, that allowed for more action and confrontation than we would have gotten otherwise, but those weren’t necessarily worth it narratively, especially since we had limited conflict between characters, such as through confrontations/arguments. I can understand that it may be true that, if Eren succeeded in the rumbling, he may eventually end up being discontented by his lack of freedom once again, in which case he might then create a conflict that destroys Eldia and his friends, as is suggested by the AoT Caste context. But if that’s the case, then let us see that. Let us see Eren truly be consumed by his corrupt, destructive primary goal of experiencing freedom, and let us see his complete fall from all redeeming qualities as his secondary desires are crushed by his overwhelming primary one. He has the motivations and the power required for that to make sense. And it would just be more consistent, since it would allow for a single goal (his inherent nature) to be his most pressing one. But it’s a tough call. It would give Eren more agency, but even something like that would feel heavyhanded on Isayama’s part, like it’s meant to paint Eren as an irredeemable, or at least tragic, villain. At least in the story as it is, he is more multidimensional and nuanced than another way the story may have gone. For example, if you believe that Eren was accepting a compromise with the rumbling as this video suggests, then it does somewhat redeem him and paints him as having done good for both Eldia and the world for ridding it of titans and for willingly facing consequences for his actions. I do at least appreciate that according to this analysis of Eren, the end of his character feels like a parallel to Kenny’s - choosing to let go of his destructive dream before it consumes him and all he loves. Especially if he had any agency at all regarding the goals he tried to pursue after he foresaw his defeat. That complexity certain does fit in with how most characters have been treated, which is a good thing. Ultimately, I just think trying to tell the story with aspects of time-traveling memories and predetermined timelines may have kind of screwed it over. It made it much harder to pull off a completely logical ending without it feeling forced in some way. And it also feels like so many characters’ agency were lost/sacrificed, at least in part, for the spectacle of it. If he got it right, it would have been an absolute masterpiece, but it’s incredibly hard to land such a story without causing some inconsistencies, which, as we’ve seen, allow for wildly different interpretations to be had. That’s not necessarily bad if you want to spark discourse. But I think the discourse should be revolving around the implications of a clear ending, rather than people disputing the legitimacy of the ending entirely.
First of all, you have an overall nice take on it, although I disagree. But I wanted to address one thing in that, Eren’s goal to protect his friends didn’t override his goal to experience his own freedom. He KNEW that the rumbling wasn’t necessary for his friends, but to him it was necessary for his own freedom so he went through with it. That would mean the opposite happened of what you said, right?
its fucking genius though. he created a set of rules which let him write whatever he wants and he makes it makes sense. it complicated, and led to a lot of misunderstandings from people he dont dive deep into the anime, but its genius
There wasn't predetermined timelines. Eren didn't do the rumbling because he saw it ahead of time. He saw it ahead of time because he was going to do the rumbling. And if the knowledge of the rumbling would have stopped him from doing it, he wouldn't have been able to see it happening to begin with. The point was to emphasis just how inevitable the rumbling was, just because that is who Eren is . And Eren was against using the founding titans power to prevent the freedom of his friends. He even said it as such. So once he saw his friends would overpower him (which he didn't know until he actually started the rumbling), the best he could do was at least make his friends appear as heroes, and use paths to say good bye to them. But everybody did actually have agency. His freinds really did stop him, and Eren really did try to fight them off using the maximum means he was willing too do. There wasn't predetermined timelines, just accurate predications. But yeah, the time travel was just confusing to everybody, and mislead the ending. If it takes people half a year to understand what the ending meant, then it is a problem with the ending. But I think Isayama had to give an accurate end date to his publishers, and miscalculated. This ended up in a rushed ending, that would otherwise have been powerful. I hope they properly fix it up in the anime.
@@darrel7493 "Eren didn't do the rumbling because he saw it ahead of time. He saw it ahead of time because he was going to do the rumbling.' What do you exactly mean by that?
Nah. I barely saw Eren in a different light after his video. Between the audience being lied to via making Eren's inner thoughts straight up falsified, to him trying to set up his friends as some avenger's gang, to him being suddenly in love with Mikasa despite no prior reciprocation to her feelings even before his memories came to him, to the plotholes between what Eren really can and cannot do/see with the founders powers, etc. 139 and Eren became a mess.
I'm very interested to see, if and how this scene will be changed in the anime. If it is changed, it'll probably be the same ending but articulated and explained better.
Eren does not kill for the fun of it. He kills as a response to the equally dangerous threat towards himself, his friends, or people. His eye for an eye treatment was generally how he did things all up until his plan changed to the Hero's Path. Which is what made the ending so unsatisfying cause Paradise getting destroyed by outside forces still happens. Even with the Alliance getting their victory. That's the equivalent of building a town on top of a bomb and not telling your kids that the timer has a limit. The world was evil and Eren is a reflection of that evil.
Except that's the point like with the fate of the rumbiling and eren it is destined to be and that was show all through past time skip paradis getting destroyed long after eren reached his final goal of allowing his freinds to live long happy lives. And it shows how eren is pathetic and selfish he would sacrifice all of them in exchange for the fight or for the freedom he wanted he wished to have the fight for freedom while having the actual freedom bored him shown by the school parody manga of snk. Paradis was always eventually going to get destroyed not to mention who even knows who destroyed paradis for all we know it was a paradis cival war and it may have been a world war if not we dont know becuase that's not the point paradis gets destroyed becuase the deterministic way of the world like with not having eren have free will paradis did not have the ability to indefinitely survive
Honestly I've always believed that saying "Paradis is destroyed" is wrong. We only see a bunch of bombs on shiganshina, the war is totally out of context and it happens a century later at least. To me it was a realistic ending. Eren saving eldia, killing his friends even if he could save them, and then boom: eternal peace was just stupid. Personal opinion
@@_tm.b_3532 The cycle of hatred will always continue. Now, tomorrow, or even 30 million years from now. Someone, somewhere, will get butthurt, and start a war. That's what the final pages were. If people can't understand that then maybe they should avoid any story based on reality.
IMO Eren being a slave to his own nature does make sense, but precisely because his nature is to seek freedom and destroy anything that threatens to take that freedom away. It clicks for me due to the idea that there is no such thing as true freedom. With other people in the world there will always be the opportunity for someone to oppose your desires. In a world with no people, the entire social aspect of life gets stripped from you (I'm sure there is a more in depth explanation about this specific concept out there but it's a lot to get into). This means Eren's goal is an unachievable one, making him a slave to his own desires which can never be satisfied.
i saw a meme once that said "A slave to freedom" which is ironic because those two words oppose each other but yeah i makes sense. There could never be true freedom and i can be simplified by a quote that even a character in Aot said: "Every human being is a slave to something" -Kenny Ackerman -Askeladd
@@the9titans237 because eren states himself in the beginning. That is why he wanted to join the survey corps. Attack on titan isnt complex it is just so real that is why it was good. People like invadez or sash go on pseudo intellectual talks to make sense of this trash ending
What Invaderzz didn't mention about School Castes is that while it's true that Eren wanted to create a threat to all of humanity. The moment something actually DID happen, he pretty much instantly regrets it. He gets kidnapped by a cult of Ymir and is naturally scared out of his mind. His friends end up saving him and he regrets wishing for something to happen even more, now that they're dragged into this mess.
He's even alarmedand regretful in the very next panel... What he had is called an 'intrusive thought'. Everyone has had these at one point or another. How you act on them says something about your character. Eren was never showed to find satisfaction in hurting people. Including the traffickers that almost took Mikasa. He just does what he deems necessary.
If eren was so hellbent on using the rumbling no matter what, then why did he try to explore every other possible outcome with the scouts in those four years (like building an alliance with hizuru) and why did he grab hange by the collar in that prison cell scene angrily but desperately asking her if she had any ideas to save Paradis? If felt like eren was genuinely trying to avoid the rumbling even though he knew that was his future. That makes the situation much more tragic because he was a slave to his future, cause he knew this whole time that he would commit monstrous acts but tried to break free and was welcoming any other outcomes (except for ones where eldians' freedom would be taken away, like in zeke's euthanization plan) but in the end succumbed to the rumbling cause there was no other choice in the long run for Paradis.
Right, I don't like how they make him out to be some sociopath who wanted to do the rumbling for his own selfish wants. Like yes, he chose to activate it because it was the one sure outcome, but I don't think it was because he "wanted" to do it for his own innate desire
There’s a lot of things you can question in this work of literature, but there isn’t a book or show ever made that you can’t question. In a way, being able to question a show or book by philosophical standpoints reveals the quality of it. I myself, wished it had ended a different way; however that doesn’t change my view on the show as a whole. Despite how it ended, I loved the show because it was there in the first place. It was something I could question, and because I had constant questions, I could enjoy it unconditionally.
Grisha gave Eren the Attack Titan because atp he knew Carla died, didn’t have a fuck about the rumbling happening and knew it would happen anyway. It was basically a way of killing himself while also having his revenge, while playing his destined part.
God I hate this guys mentality of "Oh you just didn't understand it because it is too deep and intricate for you to possibly understand, that's why you hate the ending". Have you ever considered if you need an hour long video to explain why an ending isn't bad and use headcanon and inferences to do so, maybe the ending is just really bad?
a complex philosophical ending does not equal bad. having to think hard about what an ending means does not equal bad. do you want it to be spoon fed to you?
@@bb-mf9yz Except AoT has never tried to be philosophical and even in the end the themes never got any deeper. We are talking about a story here were the protagonist says he himself didn't know why he did any of his actions.
@@theblackswordsman7558huh ?! Eren memories scene is the biggest misconception we mainly have about eren People still believe eren betrayed floch which if you watch this video he didn’t 😂
Saintitchief has got to be the most logical and straightforward SnK analyst on this entire site, he’s open minded enough to listen to the other side and at the same time knows how to poke holes in their arguments while presenting his own. Definitely the most underrated SnK UA-camr.
Definitely. I’m so tired of the seeing the same “Ending bad cuz Eren is a crybaby” argument. He gives logical points on the both the positives and the negatives of the ending. The original video is very good is well despite the inconsistencies. Both sides gave fantastic points, which is what I want to see in this god forsaken fandom
But he's far from being biased,He pokes hole in other's argument while his own reasoning is flawed as hell which no one here is pointing out,I'm seriously sick of explaining why the ending we got was only ending that would've given us proper conclusion to the story,yes ending had it's flaws and even isayama admits to it,but this retarded fanbase is ignorant as hell one side is happy coz they got eremika and the other side is pissed coz they didn't get erehisu
@@islandboy9381 there's nothing much to be said if you have watched the entire video,this is the most accurate analysis of eren's character to date,if you can keep headcanons aside
Yep reminds me of that one demon slayer video. Guy says just because he doesn't like said series doesn't mean he is making fun of you for enjoying it. Presented great points on the flaws of Demon Slayer while uploading footage of Doomguy gamwplay.
1:22:00 ur mistake here is that ur forgetting that AoT is a deterministic universe. Just like eren was unable to change the future he saw since the actions taken to lead to that future was decided by his innate nature, the decisions of his friends were also set in stone since those were the decisions they took due to their nature. It is only one unchangeable future and by Marley arc, Eren already knew this full well. He experienced is harshly himself when sasha died. It was useless to get him to not come after him. Eren didn't know he would be stopped before the rumbling so i see why you would see that he should have tried to convince them, but he knew whatever the future was cannot be changed. It would be useless to in a deterministic universe.
It’s absolutely absurd eren loved his friends so much that he allowed them to stop him but in doing so it destroys their families and the civilization they created. The determinate factor still has a cause and effect, like eren making his step mom not eat bertoldt and eating his mom. That is eren going back in time to alter something but it’s “all pre determined”. Meaning eren changed something in this predetermined reality. The writing makes it seem as if it could be one or the other and then it just becomes both. He “has” to do that even tho he only saw a vision of himself doing it. If you see a vision like that you can alter it, sadly eren didn’t, why? The reason why the anime is subpar is how looslely the thematics actually played affect into the story. Like the sins of the father for one
Of course Eren can change the future. The point is that he doesn't want to, that is the deterministic part. He would do it again if he had the choice, his motivation didn't change. Therefore: Same (relevant) conditions->same outcome. That is determinism. But it doesn't explain anything away, it is just a way of saying that his motivation would always stay strong. And it is not entirely clear what the motivation was; Why wanted to rumble, because many different answers are given, the main one being that he wants his friends to be the heroes to unite the world in a fight against him. That is the clearest answer he gave a a controversial one at that. ("Oh no, not the code geas ending")
@@richardhauer8391 u right on first part but the reason is his desperate desire for his childish dream of freedom. It’s in his nature. He wanted to erase the outside world so he could make a blank slate for him and armin to explore like they always wanted to in their childhood book
@@asakimx9226 Well that is pretty much the invaderzz argument. But I am not convinced that "he is a violent person" alone is an explanation for anything, since he never attacked anyone for no reason. Think about his talk with hange when he was imprisoned after the liberio attack: He said: "Fight, Fight!" To himself. And when asked by hange what he meant, he got angry and demanded an answer: What alternative can she offer? She didn't have an answer. I would rather interpret the "violent nature" idea as an explanation why he made such an extreme decision when they are in a difficult situation, where for example Armin would not do that. So, violent or not, he mainly didn't want to sacrifice historia. It is plausible that he didn't see an other option. When he talked to Reiner, he said they are the same, but Reiner didn't just act for himself either. You could interpret his actions as him not being able to overcome his strong loyalty to Marly. He would have to betray everything he previosely stood for. And in that sense he is just like Eren: Were they supposed to betray their country and risk their homelands destruction? Because for Reiner Marly truely needed the founding titan and for Eren Eldia needed the founding titan as defense. "becoming a hero" is not purely self serving, it meant to prevent their respective friend's death and their country's destruction. He directly gave the answer that he wanted his friends to be the heroes to unite the world in a fight against him. The purpose here is clearly protecting Eldia and his friends, he would never be seen as hero or have any other advantage for himself. Are you really convinced that it is all just an excuse that he didn't believe in?
1:54:17 I think eren didn't say right away that the main reason he did the rumbling to armin was because he was ashamed to tell him that the main reason was because he wanted to. But i also agree that isayama could have done a better job explaining it.
@@kiattim2100 idk if ur just joking around but him telling armin he doesn’t wanna see the girl he loves with another man is not in ANY WAY equal to him telling armin he wanted to destroy the world 😭 so to answer ur question THERE IS something worse than being sad abt ur girl being another man… which is wanting to destroy the world… and eren knew that, that’s why he didn’t wanna tell armin about it. sorry if u were just joking around tho
@@lujanvargas1277 He wanted to destroy the world isn't the only thing. Yes he wanted to destroy the world, but it was the only way for him to protect paradise from outside forces while NOT sacrificing Historia.
I feel you here however it's not a waste as the ride was a good one. However when the ending is just bad it leaves a bad taste. It's like a rollercoaster, you have a wild and good ride but at the end you might feel sick because the last corner was just too bad for you. That's what a bad ending of a good story is like.
Did you even watch the video? The reason why the ending was like that is in the damn video. The ending got a lot of hate due to the misconceptions people had. This video debunks some of those misconceptions
@@niallv14 And his response to the video showed his "debunking" is inconsistent and interpreting it in a way that fits his narrative, did you watch that?
In the final volume of the book, the last “school” chapter came out and Eren stated that it should be left open for interpretation for the audience after watching the ending of AOT, i feel like that’s what isayama wants
@@titan-framboise3126 but it’s still a work of fiction. I’ve seen no other interpretation of Eren like this one, and even then I’ve seen plenty of different interpretations of Eren. If that’s what he wanted, then it’s what he wanted
@@CTRen that’s just an excuse because he didn’t even know how he should conclude aot. + plus aot’s plot and universe structure isn’t suite for an open ending, aot should have had a precise ending explaining at least the important things but he failed to do so
@@neoc.e4078 I think AOT’s plot is definitely something that you can leave with an open ending, or have an open story with in terms of character writing. Like i said there’s many interpretations and views on how Eren as a character is and none of them are necessarily wrong
When people use the argument that eren was a slave to his ambition therefore he was never free it’s flawed. There’s a difference between being enslaved and being a slave. Eren was a slave to something he picked for himself, he allowed his own innate ambition to consume him and drive his behaviour. Nobody picked that path for him which is why he was such a great character. These attributes were thrown in the garbage by the notions that 1. He didn’t know why he did anything and his brain turned to mush cuz of founder 2. Ymir controlled everything to play out the way it did This is why the manga ending is absolutely shit standalone, however if there is an anime only ending it can redeem everything. People trying to defend the manga ending standalone make no sense but if things play out like how tryhard has been theorizing it’ll make aot the greatest story in all of fiction
The Ymir twist to me is what makes everything in this story collapse in on itself. If it was just Eren turning out to be a slave to an ideal to the point of him not having control over his actions or becoming detached then something interesting could have possibly come out of that. But the fact that it turns out Ymir was omniscient of everything in past, present and future to control someone yet still was somehow a slave for this weird ass ''freed from my own love torment'' bullshit makes: 1- Ymir the most weak omniscient being if she needs to control someone in 2000 years to do all of this and the plan on its own sounds like circular logic 2- Takes away any agency in the actions done through this entire plot
@@islandboy9381 You are speaking truth my friend. There is no point even talking about freedom, nature and all of these things if being like ymir exists. She can control every single person at any given point in time. Literally makes all the characters and their individual views on certain things pointless as she can change that in one second. For example eren's dream in chapter 1 or episode 1 of the anime. It was ymir who casted this dream upon eren so he can move with accordane to her plan. Other example is how she saved zeke back when he was dying from explosion.
Even if Eren's character can be somewhat reasoned with, it doesn't make the ending any less shit. Literally every character got ruined by the ending. Eren is just the easiest to pick on but no one had a good ending in the manga. It's still garbage, whether we can all come to an agreement with Eren's actions or not.
@@islandboy9381 not only does ymir being in control of everything make the whole story unsatisfying, you mean to tell me that over the span of 2000 years and billions of eldians, she never saw a ‘love story’ like eren and mikasa’s play out before? Lol that’s jokes
Deterministic worlds demand that characters act according to their needs, wishes and traits, everything is set in stone because people are predictable. Fate is formed by the agglomeration of peoples will, not by people following a script.
33:30 I'm happy to see that you brought up some a basic philosophical concept that he failed to consider in his argument. Making me feel less insane chief ❤️
if i tell you that you're a slave to your craft does that make you literally a slave like in the old days??? NO when he said that eren was a slave to his own desire of freedom means that he couldn't let go of that desire no matter what Saintichief didn't understand that, i don't even know why, come on, the language is very clear, i understood that, and english is not even my first language
@@Gankstomper i think it is both, no one is trying to say that the ending is perfect but they just keep ignoring stuffs that are very clear in the manga so that they keep lying to themselves that it was the worse ending of all time
@@waltergomes6981 Saintichief clearly said he doesn't think its the same, that was his point. He complains that "slave to his own desire" doesn't have enough importance. Eren did change his plans quite significantly if he decided not to kill everyone outside later on.
Eren: If someone is willing to take my freedom, I will take theirs. I have always been this way Except if this people are my friends, you can kill my if you want, fellas lel
He didn't really let his friends kill him. He sincerely tried to fight them off. He probably wasn't fighting his hardest as he didn't want to kill them, but he did his best to drive them away. He just happened to have knowledge ahead of time he would lose.
@@darrel7493 You're saying that he didn't lose on purpose and yet he is controlling the founding titan's powers. Dude those 2 things can't be reconciled with each other.
@@hakminblakmin7263 The current opening song clarifies a lot. It indicates that Eren saw a high probability that he would die beyond the wall, and it scared him, but he pushes ahead anyway. And the wording also implies that dieing wasn't part of his plan. Eren did not lose on purpose, but found himself trapped. And he was fighting under 2 constraints. 1 he refused to use his power to actually take power away from anyone or influence their minds. This was against Eren's principles. And 2, he didn't actually want to kill his freinds, but just chase them away. So he was pulling his punches, but he tried his best to win under those 2 constraints. And he probably would have succeeded if Zeke had not intervened. And Zeke would not have done that if Grisha had not told Zeke to stop Eren. And Zeke would never have been on Grisha's side, if Eren Kruger hadn't told Grisha to find love inside of the walls. So echos of the past were part of what led to Eren's defeat.
1:48:16 we have seen his goals not only in ch 139 but also in ch 131. 1. pursue his own freedom 2. long lives for his friends. THEN after getting power of the founder. He had NEW goals. He is expaining here in the panel his 3rd and 4th goal. Later he explains that he wanted to do so. For us, it is enough to understand that this was in his nature. No further explanation needed. The guy also said that eren was shamed of his true desire
There are a lot of things about the ending that I don't like, for example, how the titan curse ended with Mikasa killing Eren, how Zeke and Armin freed themselves from Ymir during the final battle, the logic that Ymir needed someone to kill their lover for her to be free (???!)... Etc. But when it comes to Eren's character, I think the video you are reacting to does an amazing job explaining him and his motives behind the rumbling.
@Ahmed Mohamed, I can give an answer for Ymir and Mikasa. I think Ymir wanting some push for herself to let go of her love toward Fritz. She wanted to let it go but unable to. Fritz want the power of Titan to remain and his descendant to use it and Ymir, as she loves Fritz, she can't force herself to abandon that wish yet she wanted to. Only after she saw Mikasa, while rejecting Eren wish, still continue to love him until the end of her life. This is what finally convinced herself to reject Fritz wish yet still held to her love towards him.
@@shezyam460 she was mentally broken as a slave yet still wish for affection such as love from others. Once Fritz impregnate her, she mistakenly thought he loved her, so she loved him back. After having nothing in her life, someone finally gives affection to her. Only at the end of her physical life, she realize Fritz never loved her. Due to mental anguish from this, she stunned her mental maturity to a slave as that is all she ever knew. Tldr: As a slave, have nothing, threaten as less than human than others, mentally broken. Suddenly, someone gives affection to her thus she fall in loves with him as twisted as that sound.
@@neardarkroad1347 well basically you're saying that she realized fritz never loved her and that she was used all this time but she still lived him? That doesn't sound very good. Plus, why eren? I can get the parallel between Mikasa and ymir, but eren and the king are completely different.
@@shezyam460 It is twisted, I know. I'm not explaining why it is good, I'm explaining how and why it happen. Don't forget, despite Ymir love for Fritz, seeing Mikasa doing the right thing (killing Eren) while still retained her loves toward him, finally push Ymir to undo the titan curse (the right thing to do) while still retaining her love for Fritz. I don't get your question about Eren and Fritz, can you elaborate it more?
The vid says in an earlier part that the future is already determined because eren wants these things to happen, that it’s only possible because eren wants to do what the happened in the future but then it’s contradicted by the fact that eren would’ve never wanted to stop the rumbling but did so anyway. He also never mentions the time eren saw the future again it’s just not true what he’s saying.
regardless of any defense or argument the fact that he (eren) contradicts himself 3 times in 139 alone makes the ending garbage and that is something no amount of yeagerberg or symbols or what ever can change so even in some parallel universe of mental gymnastics - where it makes sense, it is still bad writing...
15:19 😬😬 this was the point where I knew the rest of the video was probably gonna delve into strict interpretations. Like 131 makes it very clear that he was struggling with the very thought of killing so many innocent families and children. It was clear that he felt like he HAD to in order to protect his friends AND paradis's future, not for some twisted fantasy. It was shown through his kid self that he was trying to regress into such a state but through the dialogue before we knew that he was probably just lying to himself.
139 confirms this interpretation tho... When asked by armin why he wanted to “leave the world a blank slate” he states it was because he WANTED to and he HAD to. Eren hated the world for what it had done to him, so he wanted to wipe it all away. He even talks about the same thing in 131. The knowledge that humanity lived beyond the walls broke him, so HE WISHED to wipe it all away because he believed they could get in the way of the “Freedom” he was chasing. From the first arc Isayama made it very clear that Eren is not a good person. After all, he murdered 2 people and showed no remorse because he viewed them as “animals” for what they did to Mikasa. Like I said: Eren is not a good person. Although you’re right about Eren regressing back into his child-self during the rumbling to cope, that just proves his core desires. His perception of personal freedom IS twisted. The thought of murdering all of his enemies is part of his version of freedom. Erens regression into a child during the rumbling is the peak of that twisted fantasy/delusion. Don’t act like he said Eren’s main motivation was to destroy the word for his own selfish reasons tho. Erens primary motivation was always to give his friends the ability to live long happy lives. Erens need to save his friends, and his hatred for the cruel world that he lived in was what pushed him forward to commit to the rumbling. Erens motives are not one dimensional. I know I made it seem like Eren was a complete and utter monster in this but that’s just because I’m trying to get my point across. Even though Eren believes that all lives have inherent value, even though Eren had a mental breakdown over the thought of taking the freedom away from innocent people, that doesn’t disprove that he still has a twisted perception of “Freedom.” No ones trying to argue he didn’t feel EXTREMELY bad about it. His delusion just overcame his guilt.
@@corvo1733 “leave the world a blank slate” he states it was because he WANTED to and he HAD to. yes but this pretty much contradicts 131 , he never seem to want to kill so many people if he had another choices , in which eldians dont have to die ... if he wanted to do all this why did he cry for what he is going to do ... if you want to do something you dont cry , it dosnt matter how cruel is cause you know you want it , you only cry if your are let with no other choice and are forced to choose between more garbage options ... that you wouldnt want to choose them if you could .. i just think he was retconed , i belive he is a character who is open to violence he seems like this but only in certain situations ... i dont think he would choose violence just to choose it ... well it doesnt matter what i think , in 139 he clearlly said he would choose it ...
@@ssppooppcristi6734 Just like I said: He says the same thing in 131 too. Once he learned that humans lived beyond the walls he WISHED to wipe it all away. I’m literally quoting it. This is blatant proof that 139 does not contradict 131. Ofc, Eren still felt the NEED to do what he did to save his people, but he also WANTED to wipe it all away. He cried because he was disgusted at himself for having those thoughts. Eren is a firm believer that everyone deserves to be free, and that everyone has inherent value. That is why he breaks down in front of ramzi. Eren cried because he had to take the freedom away from “innocent” people, but he still did it anyways because he valued his and his people’s “freedom” over everyone else’s. I’ll try to explain why Eren WISHED to destroy the world and how that relates to his early ideology. At the beginning of the series a major theme we see within Eren is him dehumanizing those that threaten him and his loved ones. For example: After killing Mikasa’s kidnappers, he says they DESERVED it because they were animals. He said it was NATURAL for them to die. This proves that Eren is unhinged and open to violence. He killed the kidnappers to save Mikasa, but also because he thought they “deserved it.” This foils into his thoughts during his talk with ramsy, where we see his two ideologies clashing with each other. One part of him WANTS to rid the world of the “animals” that rob him of his freedom, and the other part of him hates himself for wanting to do that. Like I’ve been saying: Eren is not a simple, one dimensional character with one set of goals/motives/ideologies. People aren’t one dimensional like that either. You can still WANT to do something but be disgusted at yourself for having those thoughts. That isn’t completely illogical...
131 makes very clear that he was going to do the Rumbling "to save Eldians.....NO IT WAS NOT JUST THAT" he literally said it god damn, just read the fucking chapter
57:00 I mean you could argue that he only made that plan when he was in the paths and finally figured out how the founder's powers worked if you really wanted to, but it doesn't make it much better
In the comment section he further elaborates why eren didn't know that he will be stoped until he started the rumbling. Whether he learned in chap 90 or in chap 121 isn't 100% set in stone since in both cases there are incoherences that comes with it. However Eren learning it in chap 121 makes much more sense since this scenario raises far less incoherences than if he learned it in chap 90. His comment is very long and ellaborated I recommend reading it
Except eren reassured himself in chapter 131, which chronologically came afterwards. Also, he was painfully clear to armin in chapter 139, that instead of the lies mixed with truths that sounded feasible by then, the table scene was recognized by him as a meré antagonizing moment… 100% lies and inflammatory rhetoric, which further proves that apparently by then he was already aware he needed to loose and had came with the code geass ripp off nonsense. Nothing of it make sense with his characterization, nor with the panels, nor pre, nor during chapter 100 onwards. The retcon is blatant for anyone thats actually compromised to not ignore it.
@@SuperXrayDoc no it isn't 100% true in the manga. As I said in both cases there incoherences but the Chap90 version raises much more problems than the Chap121 one. But you can read the commemt for yourself you know
his comment was bullshit. first of all the attack titan does not "send" memories of itself to past users otherwise grisha would have had to send him saying to save mikasa and armin back to kruger which is fucking pointless and stupid. and second of all the only memories grisha saw far the attack titan future memories was how the power of the founding titan only works by touching a titan with royal blood and that he would kill the royal family. he only learned about the rumbling after eren showed with the power of the founding titan (not the attack titan) which we literally know he can do the same way he did with armin in 139 which happened even before they fought their final battle or with mikasa and the alternative universe in 138. its literally only the founding titan that allow you to consciously send back memories while the attack titan only lets you passively view memories who you might not even be sure who they're from like in krugers case. another dent in his dumb theory that eren didn't know what would happen is the fact that grisha himself literally said that eren didn't show him everything when he showed him the rumbling implying that eren knew more but didn't show grisha. what more did he know? that he would literally be stopped by mikasa which is literally what he already said he knew would happen when he touched historia's hand in 139. 139 and 121 literally already debunks the theory that he didn't everything in chapter 90 when he clearly fucking did.
@@Tupadre97 I agree for the most part, but the Attack Titans ability is to send future memories to past holders. Obviously it's inconsistent of what, how much, or how can they send them.
Around the 1:22:15 mark you say about how if he didn’t want his friends to stop him then he would’ve tried to talk to them and tried to convince them at least one time. However, I think he already knew it was pointless and that none of them would ever agree to genocide no matter how much you convince them, so he just didn’t bother trying.
In the end of the day it doesn't matter. I mean Eren's image as a character is already ruined for majority of manga readers and it'll only be followed by anime only's after.
Idk, with the anime there's a lot more people who like or at least understand Gabi's character compared to before the final season came out. But we'll see how it's all handled, I would just imagine the anime will explain things better
1:45:45 there is a missunderstanding. It is the power of the attack titan that memories will be send back to the previous attack titan. We can also see this with eren kruger. He had memories of grisha, he gave him the advice to make a family and love someone. Bc he tried to follow the path. He also said the line with: "if you want to save mikasa and armin". So sending back memories wasnt something future eren did on purpose
Couldn't agree more, what you said it's what i thought as well. Fun fact by giving Eren acess to see future and being in deterministic universe is the only way to achive Eren changing plan midway. Otherwise there would come time where he would have to choose between his friends and his "freedom" as he woudn't know they could sucseed in stopping him. So he couldn't make the make them look like hearoes plan and could kill them and achieve his goul or die and leave them to their own devices, hopping they we find a way to survive. I think giving character ultimate power and ability to see future in deterministic universe is and incredibly hard thing to do and you need a really good premise for it to work. Which I think last ark of the series didn't have, if anything it's saying following axioms are true: 1. Eren is this kind of person, there are thinks he want and things he doesn't want to do 2. He has power of founding titan, meaning anything he wants to do can be accomplised (Nobody can oppese him, he can restrict any eldian) 3. He can see future, which is deterministic, but also influenced by the fact that he can see the future So the future he sees, it's practicly the best future he can accomplish according to axiom 1 and 2, and as axiom 2 says he can do pretty much anything and cannot be oppesed even by other eldians, there is only one reson he would not accomplish his goal, that being he has strong moral value and won't cross them to achieve his goal, which is nonsence according to what we know, and if he decided that he would once again act according to them there needs to be mini-ark about that, not deux ex fck you i said so. The second is the goal has changed or changed priority or was misunderstood from begining, if the goal is changed or changed priority there is point in the future where it happens and he can see that and we should see that. If it was misunderstood from begining there should be some kind of bread crums that indicate for that to be the case. The feedback, in this case the agency of the one seeing the future, is the only limiting factor, so more powerfull the one seeing future is, the more freedom in outcome you have. And if you give this ability to powerfull person, whose philosophy is the end justify the means, he becomes a plot device. This doesn't seem all that bad, as it demonstraits the paradox, at least in a way that is intuitive, but bcs the decisions, are made to suit the outcome it diminishes the weight of those decisions and outright skips a lot of them, as he can only see the one and only path where all the decisions have been already made. This pretty condensed, but I hope it makes at least sence. I didn't wanna suggest a better way to write ending using these axioms, but to show the shortcomings of this type of storytelling.
The second the guy trying to defend this shit ending said "eren is a antsgonist" that's how I knew he had a shit take. By definition and breaking things down, eren is not an antahonist
The reason Eren didnt try to convince them to not kill him was because he knew it wouldnt work because he saw that they would kill him. The future cant be changed so there was no point in doing so. And comparing that to him saving Ramsy doesnt make sense. Him saving Ramsy was Eren being Eren, being kind to the people he would later kill, it wasnt anything personal. Just like Reiner. But him asking his friends not to kill him doesnt do any of that. Again, they would kill him anyways, because that is what the future held.
I think a lot of people aren’t understanding that the future is fixed. Thank you for mentioning this. Like this is the problem with future plots…in a fixed future plot, the future will happen exactly as it’s gonna happen cuz there’s only one timeline and it bugs me when everyone keeps saying why didn’t he try to change the future, etc. anyway I don’t wanna ramble but yeah this comment
It's a high quality video but he honestly just tried to turn aot into a story it wasn't meant to be before 139. I mean the scenes he looked at as evidence could also be fairly interpreted differently and in the way a lot of yeagarist and more critical alliance fans had thought. This whole video is honestly more like a theory video if anything sadly and really would be just as credible as some theories before 139 but just like other theories before 139 even it gets retconed by the chapter through simply dialogue AND actions. Edit: actions made by eren Edit: this argument can be used against theories before the ending but there was more and better evidence for these claims. This theory does a ton of stretching.
Your own argument could be used against you,coz the points u guys bring out can be deemed as nothing but theory coz the story of aot is open to interpretations
I'm extremely impressed by Invaderzz video but I'm just wondering how did he know that Eren sent the memories back and that Eren only saw the future through Grisha, and also that Eren only saw part of the future and then saw the rest of it once he came in contact with the founder??? Was that clearly stated in the text I don't remember that. Even if invaderzz explanation was perfect I would still fault the writing for failing to convey it in an understandable manner. I understand that Eren had multiple motivations (caring for his friends, wanting freedom for himself, freedom for his people, violent nature) but I don't think Isayama succeeded at juggling them all in a coherent way. I also think the claim that Eren is really a sociopath who just used his environment as an excuse to destroy the world makes him WAY LESS COMPELLING then someone who simply had a powerful urge to seek freedom and was determined to get it no matter the cost or who had to get out of his way. The moral conundrum of Eren's right to freedom vs. the lives of the rest of the world is way more interesting. Many people in our world are oppressed and the reality is freedom is something that you alhave to fight for. People will fight and die to keep others in chains. If someone commits the violence of keeping you unfree, don't you have a right to fight back? Isayama complicated this question in the story by introducing questns such as "what if fighting for freedom required you to take innocent lives of ppl who didn't chose to oppress you. what if the people fighting you were just brainwashed versions of your own people? what if total freedom for your people could only come with the destruction of everyone else? What if other options could guarantee your safety and comfort at the cost of genocide (in the form of Euthanasia)" but these questions are all cheapened if are main character would actually be bored with freedom and really just uses it to fight people. Basically even of invaderzz is 100% right and Isayama planned this ending it was still a poor direction for the story to take.
"I also think the claim that Eren is really a sociopath who just used his environment as an excuse to destroy the world makes him WAY LESS COMPELLING then someone who simply had a powerful urge to seek freedom and was determined to get it no matter the cost or who had to get out of his way." No one will be able to convince me that Eren's actions are those of a person who just wanted an excuse to destroy the world. Eren saw the future of the rumbling when he kissed Historia's hand, which is why he acts super depressed after that moment. Isayama cleverly avoided showing us what Eren saw, leaving us to decipher his motivations through his actions. Despite seeing the future Eren exhausted every option to avoid destroying the world. Chapter 131 is absolutely incredible because we're finally shown Eren's perspective. Eren isn't bloodthirsty, gloating, or confused - he's devastated, cries, and wishes it didn't have to be this way. Eren is NOT evil for the sake of being evil, and the fact that some people believe this is a testament to their lack of reading comprehension.
@@SuperMatthew345 eren didn't need any excuse to destroy the world, his freedom was taken away from him, in chapter 121 he said "if anyone tries to take my freedom away i won't hesitate to take theirs", and of course, eren wasn't confused, he knew what he was doing was wrong, he was depressed and even cried, but in the end he did the rumbling because it is what he wanted, eren said "ever since i was born i have always been me" it was his nature and people refuse to believe it. Attack on titan is very complex, isayama gave answers to majority of the things but also left something to the audince to discover for themselves, and those things can be found in the story itself, but people just want everything to be simple, attack on titan was never simple
They always say ''if you just understood what themes Isayama was going for with this ending you would totally think it was good, maybe he shouldn't have told it in this vague and subtle way'' but you highlighted exactly that even if those supposed themes were made clear as possible in the plot, it would be bad.
@@islandboy9381 why would it be bad though? Because it is different? I’m not saying that the ending is perfect, it is far from that, but people make it seem worse just because they don’t understand the things that are already in the plot
It's not isayama's fault,it's the dumbass fandom,both sides are mentally retarded,one side is happy coz they got eremika and the other side is sad coz they didn't get erehisu
The average person is just too stupid for this to ever really be a good idea. All these dipshits saying the ending is trash just need everything spelled out for them.
it's funny how they can't just balance the scales with the argument. It goes from not only is the ending good, Eren is the greatest character in the history of mankind lmao
I just want to explain why doesn't matter the reason why Grisha gave the powers to eren, even after asking zeke to stop eren, its really simple and is exactly as the video said "it doesn't even matter". The future that Grisha saw, is the future where grisha saw the future (I hope is not confusing), it was not like this before grisha saw it, and then it changed, it was always this. What grisha saw is taking account that grisha saw it. So, the reason could be whatever, maybe he thought to give it to someone else but then changed idea when shiganshina was attacked, his house destroyed, his wide killed and the life that he fought for gone, or maybe when he was thinking clearly he thought "I'll not give the titan to eren" but in the rage of everything that I just wrote that happened to him, he did it. It really doesn't matter, cause it happened. The video was on point
And why eren sent memories to grisha if everything would have happened anyways? Bro, wtf, we know that's the case because it was acknowledged by us, he doesn't know it😂, plus, that's what he wants, so he'll make sure that it will happen. I don't know what's wrong in this
It matters. This video is arguing that the rumbling only occurred because 'Eren wanted it to occur'. Because Eren is a violent psychopath who cannot make himself make a decision that contradicts his desire for freedom (ergo a slave to freedom), which he defines as a world empty of humans outside of Paradis. So the entire weight of the Rumbling is on Eren alone, wiping away any outside factors as irrelevant. OP argues that even in a time of peace, Eren would simply get bored and do this anyway if he was given the means. Eren is a born psychopath who chose the most violent outcome because he desires it. No other reason. Right? Right. So then, knowing all of this, why did Grisha follow along with Eren. What kind of character does that make Grisha who went along with this mindless violence ??? The options are either: A: plot device, lel. Deus ex, who gives af. B: Eren is Lelouch and he can make people do things against their own will, but only if they're Grisha. C: Grisha knew what Eren knew and on very limited time could not think of any other or better way. Both Grisha and Eren have tried negotiating. They exhausted any option they could think of. Eren practically begged Hange for a better answer or a plan at all. *There was no correct answer.* Eren was never the greedy and cowardly character OP described. This is the same character that begged to be eaten if that was indeed what it took to achieve peace. Peace just simply wasn't an option *because Marley and the rest of the world decided it*. Eren simply responded. Grisha, despite himself, doesn't have an argument to make or a solution to give. The walls are down, his lifetime as a shifter is nearing at an end and just like that he was forced to make a decision quickly before his time ran out and Paradis is robbed of their only chance at fighting back against a world that would use their living corpses to fight their wars with no end in sight. The notion that Eren saw everything that he saw, lived through all these absolutely traumatising, devestating events, only to not consider any of them at all in favor of 'well idk.. just cause.. went with the flow..' is insulting and stupid. Defending this logic is betraying any and all character development. Eren trusted Levis squad and was rewarded with their corpses- unimportant, he just wanted to see lava and got pesky, dirty little humans instead. Eren is forced to endure speech after speech how the Eldians deserve to be pulled apart by teeth, forced to roam the earth indefinitely and eat innocents and their own loved ones, starved in one place as their recources depletes with time- never got to see the sahara dessert :,((( All his comrads who died fighting with terror in their hearts for a chance of a glimmer of hope only for Paradis and their loved ones in it to be helplessly trampled into the soil or mutated into the very same grotesque monsters that chewed them to death- Eren would get bored D,,,,: Be so freaking serious...
Your point at the end with Breaking Bad was conditionally met. When Armin said “did you really do this for our sake” Eren never confirmed it. He leaves. According to Invaderzz, this could be interpreted as a parallel to Reiner. Whether or not that’s true would be up for debate. What Eren did confirm at the end is that he wanted to do it. And as much as I can understand your position that Eren could’ve phrased that better, I think that saying he wanted to do it was enough. Maybe it’s implied he did like it. Or some inherent nature. Or nurture. I don’t know. And I’m satisfied with not knowing why he wanted it. But indeed that’s my personal opinion.
well when it comes down to it, I don't think Invaderz thinks Eren is truly selfish, especially since alot of comments on his vid take away that Eren isn't the villain. But something he missed about the ending, as well as foreshadowing for it, was that this ending was inspired by The Mist, a movie about a main character who starts out one way, contradicts it, but then returns to his original self at the end. Eren said alot of contradictory stuff, including when he realized it and he said he wanted to continue the rumbling but he didn't know why he felt that way, even when he said he made it clear he didn't want to do it and when he did, he had better motives in mind. But then Armin punched him, and in a moment that Isayama described as "Eren is back", Eren breaks down in sorrow about everything, and from there, we see Eren get the heroic sendoff and treatment from Armin and the rest of the alliance. The story made it pretty clear that Eren isn't selfish, and those who use Invaderz vid to prove that he is are really just trying to cope with the ending and how it humanized Eren.
I really liked Invaderzz video & I gotta say - a lot of people say that he, and others who enjoyed the ending, are having to do all this insane analysis or "mental gymnastics" to make it make sense, but to me that's what ANR theory (which you like a lot) had to do. I've watched AOT with like 6 different people and chatted with dozens who watched as regular fans, and when I insinuate anything that the ANR theory insinuates, they are baffled and do not understand how that theory even exists. I have to deeply explain it. It takes SO much analysis and bending the story to accommodate the theory. Its an interesting theory and fun to follow when you dig into it, but it's just always confused me why people are so willing to dive into the absolute THICK of the ANR theory, but refused to do any analysis on the ending we actually got and Isayama wrote. And then when people do and find really cool aspects of the canon story, they get trashed for "having to explain so much" which makes it "bad" yet that's....literally what the ANR theory has to do. But I digress.
I know, for some people Historia mentioning a baby means she’s flirting with Eren. But as soon as the story doesn’t follow their narrative they lose this ability.
Hypocricy at its finest, when you do it, you don't think it is a problem but when someone else does it, you'll call them out for it. Anr theory supporters in a nutshell.
@@lalatui4539 for sure. The AnR lovers have been one of the most hateful & hypocritical subsets of any anime fandom I’ve ever been in. :/ I just cannot imagine spending THIS much time on something I hate. You hated the ending? Great? Move on. But they’ve made it their whole personality + insult the intelligence level / reading comprehension of anyone who disagrees or found beauty in the ending we got. It’s a real bummer, but it’s human nature to be antagonistic I guess 😂 I just wish they put even 10% of the energy they put into trashing AOT, into understanding the canon themes presented. But they are the ones who “truly understood AOT” - I forgot 🙄
@@euph1na Historia mentioning a baby to Eren = love & yet every single interaction she had with Ymir - sobbing and begging her not to leave her alone, crying to her love letter - that was all platonic. 🙄 AnR Historia was reduced to an Eren simp who is more concerned w her genocider returning to her than she is with the fact that he’s going to murder all their best friends to do so. 😂
@@sadieb9424 Insulting others' intelligence and taste is what i find irritating about them, we are talking about a Japanese comic here, not final exam paper or final year project, guys really be hurling insults at others for not having the same opinion as them about a Japanese story smh. When others don't think their fan theory makes sense or connect to the canon story, it is because they are not smart enough but when someone like insider(I know i butchered his name) made an intense analysis about Eren's character and made many interesting points, it's because he is playing "mental games" ☠.
😕the biggest problem is that the writer is supposed to show me all this and make me accept it or understand it. But to make most readers do not understand until they watch dozens of videos for long hours until they understand the character and his decisions here, you failed as a writer
The author thinks that you can do these simple things by yourself by paying attention to the details but when you'll pay attention to these details, you just watch it for action.
Soon each viewer will understand the truth as the story progress and each viewer will understand the truth that gradually appears as the story progress in the movie in 2023 (Our battle is only getting started)
1:03:12 C'mon, it's kinda obvious, Eren is not aware in what kind of a universe he lives in, only we, the observers are able to think of something like that.
@@saintitchief Of course not, he sent them for the exact reason shown in the manga, so that the past Eren would do the actions that he did. You say though that because Eren lives in deterministic universe there's no need for that, but how does Eren know that, he's not a philosopher in any way.
I agree with invaderzz analysis of eren but i think the ending would have been 10x better if eren just simply didn't know that he would lose. The dina fritz thing is also just pointless bs.
Ngl that Dina twist was unnecessary I get that since the AOT timeline is “deterministic” Carla was always meant to die, but just the fact that it was Eren that got her killed still hurts me personally, even if it was implied that he wasn’t coherent when he did it
14:20 I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say, for Eren it didn't matter what the outside world was exactly like, if it was just ocean, just desert, just snow, it didn't matter to him. What mattered is that the world outside, his ideal free world is a world that's completely empty, the vast EMPTINESS of the world is freedom to Eren, for Armin freedom represents wonder to the things outside, for Eren as long as it's empty, devoid of people, war, and anything like inside the walls then that would be his ideal outside world, for him that would be freedom itself, like a bird in the sky where nothing exists. But the outside world is just like inside the walls, it's cruel, and eventually he would realise that the people were also the same, and that was incredibly disappointing to him, that his ideal free world didn't exist was disappointing. Of course, just as you said, he has other things to think about, the fact that the entire world is his enemy, that his father's memories were true and many others. But his disappointment that the ideal free world wasn't real is also a part of him, and also a part of what makes him act and think like he does from that point on in the story, later the narrator himself says that Eren was also thinking about other things and I think you understood everything afterwards and just didn't say it out loud.
In the same chapter 131 that people like so much, they neglected the part where Eren said "It is for Eldia, but it is more than that" and then "the outside world, it is nothing like what was shown in Armin's book". And then the craziest thing he said, "when I realized that people lived beyond the walls, i was so disappointed". So for all the people who are saying Eren activated the Rumbling solely for Eldia's sake, that is not totally true. He was picturing his ideal world, a world devoid of people, war or whatever. And that empty wasteland is his definition of freedom.
15:48 What about chapter 131 contradicts Invaderzz's claim that Eren caused the rumbling because he wanted to, due to being unable to accept the world outside the walls was different to what he imagined? In 131 Eren says to Ramzi, "For the sake of the Island, the Eldians... No, it wasn't just that... What was really beyond the walls... It was different from what I dreamed of... From the world I saw in Armin's book (starts crying again)... It was different... When I learned that humanity lived outside the walls... I was disappointed. I... I wished... For everything to somehow disappear. I'm sorry..." From this I think its pretty obvious that Invaderzz's point makes a lot of sense. Ofc he starts off by telling Ramzi he did it for the sake of the island, but he follows it up immediately by pretty much confirming that Eldia wasn't the main reason. You could even argue it was a cope in order to justify his actions to himself. Its pretty clear from this chapter that a massive part of his motivation for causing the rumbling is out of his inability to reconcile with the state of the outside world. So again I ask, what about chapter 131 contradicts Invaderzz's claim?
well when it comes down to it, I don't think Invaderz thinks Eren is truly selfish, especially since alot of comments on his vid take away that Eren isn't the villain. But something he missed about the ending, as well as foreshadowing for it, was that this ending was inspired by The Mist, a movie about a main character who starts out one way, contradicts it, but then returns to his original self at the end. Eren said alot of contradictory stuff, including when he realized it and he said he wanted to continue the rumbling but he didn't know why he felt that way, even when he said he made it clear he didn't want to do it and when he did, he had better motives in mind. But then Armin punched him, and in a moment that Isayama described as "Eren is back", Eren breaks down in sorrow about everything, and from there, we see Eren get the heroic sendoff and treatment from Armin and the rest of the alliance. The story made it pretty clear that Eren isn't selfish, and those who use Invaderz vid to prove that he is are really just trying to cope with the ending and how it humanized Eren.
@@CHRISCAMPO-wq8bi for starters, idk why you replied to my comment when you werent going to answer the question i posed or even really address anything i made in regards to chapter 131. The comments on his video? You mean people in the comments section? Im rather confused as to what you mean or why you would bring this up. AoT isnt a cut and dry as to have villains and good guys, the entire story is basically enforcing this point. Eren isnt "the villain", but he certainly isnt a hero. I dont think Invaderz claims Eren is either in his video. If people in the comments are saying eren is a hero or whatever, then they are silly in my view. Your next point doesnt make a lot of sense tbh, could you reword it maybe? I dont see why bringing up The Mist proves any point you are making. Eren is character who starts out with a selfish and childish drive for freedom, seemingly contradicts that, but inevitably returns to this original state (reductive character analysis but you get the overall point). Invaderz explained this pretty well in the video, so im not gonna go over it again. Main characters are usually complex. Eren's does not only have one character trait (being selfish), however, his childish and selfish drive for freedom is a very important part of his character and motivations. Again this is also explained in Invaderz's video. For you just to dismiss his video as a "cope", and not provide any good arguments against it, is rather silly. And why would i cope about the ending humanising eren? Attack on Titan has always done this with important characters. Thats not a bad thing. I'm rather confused on what your overall point is lol.
Tl;dr: It actually was a great ending that made sense in the grand scheme of the story. It is a story about humans and our flaws and the vicious cycles that we inevitably fall back into even after we resolve the current issues in front of us. Though I won't lie, I would have LOVED IT if the 139.5 pages weren't added in. But again, that's just me speaking on an ideal world that I've trapped myself in, the way that Eren did. You can't have everything. It's a more realistic ending and allows one to decide whether or not the cycle of the Titans is to continue. Just because I don't like/prefer something doesn't make it bad. The biggest thing I see that people never bring up is that at the end of the day Eren and Ymir are HUMAN. They aren't perfect beings who are completely omniscient and have no human complexity to them as people often portray them as. Eren literally is a 19-year-old kid with the burden of the world on his shoulders. Hence why he broke down multiple times in the manga about his transgressions that he knew were going to take place. He is a flawed character because humans are imperfect. Humans are contradictory. Everyone I've seen that complains about the ending wants Eren to be a more straightforward and simple character. One that does not deviate from the mass murdering being that he has put himself to be. BUT Eren himself is not a god, and his flaws up until the very end of his life showed us that as much power as we may have, humans are foolish creatures as seen in his breakdown to Armin in chapter 139. His childish idealism was never going to happen in the reality of the world as it is/was. Also, Ymir the founder is often talked about in the same way (by the AoT community) that the royal family has always regarded to her as, a tool. It's like the community is King Fritz/Zeke and many of them don't understand that she was just a girl who was manipulated and wanted for someone to understand her instead of using her. Hence why Eren was the perfect and only person who had ever acknowledged her simply as another person, a human being. Eren showed her that she had a right to her own decisions, her own... Freedom. She waited 2000 years for Eren and Mikasa. Yes, though she loved Karl Fritz even after all that had transpired, I sometimes think of her like Violet Evergarden. She only ever knew how to do one thing and her conviction led her to only know one way of life. Until someone came along and acknowledged her existence as more than just a tool. Also, idk why you mentioned that you HAVE to choose to be an antagonist or a protagonist and that you can't do both because you clearly can @1:47:45. That's why anti-heroes and anti-villain tropes also exist. AoT has never been black or white in morality and humans are much more complex than that. If you haven't already learned this concept from the show, especially with Reiner, Eren, and Gabi being prime examples of learning this development, then idk what else to tell you. As for how you mentioned Eren to Walter from Breaking Bad, they are different. Eren again, did not enjoy the destruction he brought upon the world. His nature is not destruction, rather he is essentially the embodiment of the Attack Titan/Freedom incarnate @1:46:50. This was already discussed by Invaderzz in his video. And mentioned by me in the first paragraph. Timestamp to what saint said ---> @1:52:35. It would have been extremely contradictory for Eren as a character at this point to simply say, "Oh I did it because I enjoyed killing off the world". or something among those lines. That wouldn't have been good, and it would simply have made Eren a super generic bad guy in the end and removed literally all the other meaningful moments in the manga where his humanity came through for us to observe.
Eren literally said he’d destroy the world anyway out of it pleasure I don’t think you understood Invaderzz video he literally said Eren is a psychopath
While he makes good points in this video I also thinks he does major mental gymnastics to make 139 make sense I also don’t agree with the “he did it because he wanted to” narrative Eren quite literally HAD to do the rumbling presented many times throughout the story it was either the rumbling (80 or 100%) or roll over and wait for the rest of the world to kill them
The 50 year plan? Yes, it has it's shares of flaws. The world would hate and be terrified of Paradis but the threat of the Rumbling and what they saw of it would make sure they steer clear of the island. Also, if you think AoT of all stories would provide a full proof resolution to human conflict then...whelp Eren WANTED to believe there were no other choices; but the fact was the other choice that was there went against his ideal and who he was as a person. It meant continuing the cycle of using royal babies as weapon of war, his friends inheriting his Titan and him not experiencing his warped up version of freedom, so Eren rejected it. There goes your illusion of 'Had to'/'choicelessness' that is legit one of the themes of AoT- people doing horrible shit while convincing themselves that there are no choices/ they are doing it for the 'greater good'. Erwin's arc, Reiner's arc, Eren's arc...all point the same
But that’s literally what 139 shows and that’s what the conversation with Reiner show. When Reiner reveals his own reasons- that he wanted to, Eren says that they’re the same. This shows that Eren had to have another reason for his rumbling as well, and that reason is exactly as said in 131 and 139.
The thing is, does Eren really want the whole Paradise to survive? So far what I could see is he only cares about his own friends. Which kinda selfish...but logical in a way? He's 19 and Paradise people aren't good people anyway. The Yaegerists have also become fascists so there's no hoping that Paradise will stay peaceful forever.
@@yamshimi6014 If he cared for and only his friends he could very easily go with any other plan like the 50 year plan , or zekes plan ... He never had to kill 80% of humanity , his actions and reasons for killing so Many people just to give his friends a peaceful life , makes no sens If he can achieve the same think with better plans , pshichopatic characters are not compeling , and will never be ...
He says that there is only one timeline, and then proceeds to show a manga panel that shows the future Eren anime timeline at 50:19? He's blatantly contradicting himself as he speaks, and I don't know why he does that. Most of what he says is valid, but only when looking at the manga timeline in isolation. There are obviously several timelines.
44:50 dude school caste was stated by the author to be relevant and important to the story so u can not refute the argument that it’s not a part of the story 1:22:36 Eren knows his friends best and he knows they would never go along with his actions no matter how much he tried Could you picture armin, Hange jean or Connie as yeagerists? 1:45:00 I disagree I think aot is a story that had always and should be open to interpretation And also Eren would never let his friends just sit in paths because he clearly stated that he wouldn’t take their freedom to fight them away in 133
"Eren knows his friends best and he knows they would never go along with his actions no matter how much he tried Could you picture armin, Hange jean or Connie as yeagerists" I think he meant that according to invaderz logic he should have atleast tried to convince them. Also if eren knew that his friends would never side with him then why did he try to push them away in the first place. why did he tell mikasa that he hated her and basicly just be an asshole to his friends. If erens friend were never gonna side with him in the first place then there was no reason for him to be an asshole to his friends.
@@aDsnow it’s explained he told mikasa he hated her because he didn’t want her caring about him with what he’d become But even when he tried to push them away to protect him they still came after him in the end Tbh I completely agree that the whole but with pushing his friends away is confusing but I still don’t think any of them would be yeagerists or eren would even consider that a possibility that they would be
On School Castes, I think he meant that it’s a good argument, but since it doesn’t take place in the same universe, it’s hard for people to understand if they don’t read School Castes or are anime watchers.
2 things can be true at the same time, he wanted to wipe out the world and yet at the same time have his friends stop him Should he wipe out the world his friends r free, should they stop him they’re also now free Also, 1:00:00 is a great point and gives reasoning to “I’m a slave to freedom” from Eren But the counterpoint is also good Y did Grisha give Eren the Titan if he wanted Zeke to stop Eren which goes against the ideology cause according to the ideology the outcome can’t be changed but if he doesn’t want to give it to Eren what would propel him to do so
Eren also says that he didn’t know if he was gonna be stopped but was going to keep moving forward anyway chapter 139 is just so bad written lmao he says it was his plan to make them look like the hero but then also says this in the same chapter 😭
@@mwndjddjdhdbbf8408 they are still coping that they didn't got their part of fanservice like those eremika retards,seriously I hate both sides of this fandom,they are ignorant asf
@@niallv14 I'm convinced they didn't read the manga either. At this point every single time I see someone say things like "the ending is trash" or "you can like it if you want, but it's objectively bad" I just know they're an idiot and move on. It sucks but AOT has the worst fanbase to ever exist.
I think the reason Eren sent the memories to Grisha is because he thought he'd appreciate seeing that beautiful view. Especially since from what Eren knew he wanted to bring down Marley.
So, if eren is a slave to his own idea of being free, his plan to wipe out the world was his actual goal. Then, why did he fail to wipe out the world? He is the founding titan, he can control all titan shifters and shit, then why the fuck didn't he finish the plan man? What I don't understand is how can he fail at something that he doesn't want to fail, given that he can't fail if he doesn't want to fail. Since he didn't want to fail at his plan (he's a slave to the idea of being free), then he won't fail (because he's the founding titan and he can control all titans, therefore non-titans can't do anything about eren's plan of wiping out the world). Explain me that and I'll be a step closer to understanding the end.
That's the paradox. And ultimately I don't think there's a satisfactory answer for that. Though I do think it's within reason to accept that paradox and move on. The reason I say that is simple - if Grisha needed to be convinced to steal the founding titan in the first place, and Eren needed the founding titan in order to convince him, how then was Grisha convinced in the first place to steal it? When was the first action? Eren having the founding titan or grisha stealing it - which requires the founding titan. The same holds true with Eren's choice not to stop his friends according to his video. Leaving them with the Titan powers give him the means to defeat him, but he gave them the Titan powers because he saw them defeat him - which one's the first action? A Paradox much like the Grisha in the Chapel in 121.
Furthermore, Eren's primary goal in the Rumbling as defined by this video is reaching that freedom - Chapter 131. That's already accomplished by the time the alliance stops him, so it's mission accomplished by then.
Because if he flatten 100% of the world it will cost his friends and this is something he can't never sacrifice. On this 80%. It's really a combination of his desire for freedom and concern of his friend's safety. Eren can reached and experience the freedom like what was shown in chapter 131 and then he invited his friends to Paths and talk to them about them later will stop him. But someone like Eren would want to continue to feel the ecstasy of freedom longer, that's why he kept going until his friends caught up to him. Then also he saw the future about his friends will stop him, so it's just ensure the point
The man might need to attend a literature class if he can't make such simple points in at least 45 minutes. I struggle with the same problem myself in my writing but not this badly 😅
@Manvëru well to be fair he had to explain how he interpreted Eren in the past (his interpretations we're BS but) in order for his points later to make since which in general is important when dissecting Erens character
@@glamrock3976 its people like you that cant engage in intellectual conversations or comprehend the importance of conveying information diligently would think that way. Invader did the right thing in taking the time he did so folks like you would have no conclusive arguments or criticisms against a majority of his points. Even dude in the video is secretly turned but doesnt realise it. Laughs at 'eren did the rumbling cause he wanted to' but accepts and understand Reiners pov and even later in the video himself said yes eren is an inherently violent person LMFAO. You post season 4 eren fans are funny. This video was much needed for the asinine discourse in this fandom and the misconceptions surrounding eren. It's so hard for the yeagerists to accept Eren was never a yeagarist himself
Honestly, I don't really disagree with what Invaderzz says. While I do disagree with some of the things he's said, some of them big, ones you already mostly pointed out, I must say, this ending that Invaderzz sees and how he view's Eren's story and it's end, is actually fairly accurate. The problem is, that a lot of things still make no sense. There are a lot of plot holes left within the story and I'm not going to go over them, y'all can just watch saintitchief's videos cause he pointed them out :) In any case, to sum it up, what Invaderzz says is mostly true. Eren is pathetic. He even admits it before the battle of Orvud, when he thinks that beating himself up will change who he is. He has never changed. The problem is that Invaderzz ignores the fact that he is writing for the author. He is doing what Isayama should have done, when writing his own story. By the end, everything should be clear and we should be able to understand why everything happened and why we were wrong about Eren. Isayama literally fucked the final arc in that regard. Because even though the body (that is the over all story) exists, it lacks a skeleton (the details and how the story is written) to support itself. And no, I don't believe in that "Eren loves Mikasa" bullshit. There is nothing romantic between them, there never was.
I don’t think he’s pathetic at all. He made chooses even some of the strongest people wouldn’t dare to do regardless if those chooses were right or wrong. He did was he thought was the right, but another side of him knew the outcome would be disastrous. Chapt 139 eren wasn’t a pathetic crybaby like people kept saying. They were more mad with the fact that he didn’t destroy the rest of the world and would do it with the dead facial expression he had since the start of the Marley arc. Sure it was a little cringy seeing him cry like that and I’m not gonna use the “he’s still 19 and young” comment because he still killed people when he was 9, but if you not only killed 1.65 billion people, but know you’re gonna die and won’t be able to see your loves ones again, you’re gonna feel some type of way and say unordinary shit. He never got the change to tell his friends his true feelings as well, but eren fan boys would rather for him to be an emo genocide supporter with no care in the world then someone who gives a shit about his friends. Then you have the real crybabies of the fandom whining to the other side of the fandom who likes like ending or at least defending it, like bro they’re just drawings no need to take offense. Overall I’m saying that people are going to hard on his character, either making him a cruel bastard or some pathetic loser. I’m not saying he’s a sweetheart or nothing, but his character has a lot of depth to him. Which is why it’s so complex. I didn’t think the ending was the best and it certainly had its issues, but even so, I’ll always appreciate isayama and this wonderful story he has given us.
Yes, it does mean everyone is a slave. That is the point of the entire story lmao. I think the problem people have with the story is that they simply don't agree with the nihilistic philosophy the story is based on thematically. If you can't accept the fundamental philosophy for what it is, you can't accept the story. As someone who studies a lot of philosophy and listens to a lot of debates it's easy to come to the conclusion that right and wrong are very subjective and there's no real definitive answer to any existential question. That and time travel inherently makes no sense but I think Isayama knew that and is trying to use the timey wimey nonsense as a metaphor for examining the paradoxes of the human condition (not saying you don't have perfectly legitimate gripes with the logic of the story because the concept of time travel makes no inherent sense to begin with and why as a writer I would never personally even touch the concept). The story doesn't have a satisfying conclusion cause I don't think it was ever meant to have one. Can basically sum it up as "life sucks and then you die". Couple that with his own admitted lack of confidence he probably tried to maintain that nihilistic ending but got cold feet and tried to find a middle ground. Pressure might've just gotten to him, hell for all we know there was pressure from the publisher to alter things. Not enjoying the ending is 100% understandable as I don't love it myself but I can see the idea he is going for and personally commend him for even attempting it and appreciate it for what it is. I just can't stand when people say he's a horrible writer when he kept them glued to a story for 139 chapters regardless of how they felt about the ending because that in itself proves he can write. There's more to someone's merit as a writer than the raw logical consistency of one story. He knows how to create suspense and mystery, he knows how to weave a complex plot with multiple characters and motivations with some pretty realistic sophistication and he isn't afraid to experiment with nonconventional themes and characters. I remember reading an interview where Isayama talked about how he started writing the story when he was at a low point in his life trying to make it as a mangaka and said he wanted to "hurt" his readers. Judging by all your videos on the ending, I'd say he fuckin nailed it LOL. At the end of the day though I can't blame anyone for not enjoying the ending cause clearly most people wanted a clear, logical and satisfying conclusion with tied up ends and not some commentary on complex existential/philosophical questions and that's a 10000% valid stance to have after such a long ride.
when he shrugged off the slave concept i cringed. “so your saying everyone is a slave” yes that’s exactly what he’s saying don’t act like you checkmated him.
@@bb-mf9yz Yeah, dude just spouts his objective opinion as fact, gets overly reactionary and then probably can't figure out why his channel doesn't grow. The invaderzzz video wasn't even trying to say the ending was inherently good or bad, he simply tried to interpret the story with the information it gives us and clarify some misunderstandings some people have had with it, if you still don't like it that's fair but this guy acts like invaderzzz was trying to convince anyone they are wrong in not liking the story when he wasn't. Dude took it oddly personal and it's kind of embarrassing to watch. I honestly just don't think most of the fanbase is mature/studied enough to appreciate anything the ending tried to do, even if he didn't get it perfect. Eren is literally the personification of the Shonen protagonist tropes (hard headed, driven to an almost inhuman degree, "pure" as many authors describe them) except instead of it being a positive thing like Goku in Dragon Ball, it's a dark twist on it which I find rather refreshing.
@@joshvarga3591 spot on. to appreciate the narrative, you have to think outside of what is being presented to you on a surface level, and you can't do that when your entire sense of what's being shown is based on objectivity. truth is, I couldn't care less if you think its bad. but when you say things like "terrible writing" "meaningless" and "character assassination" I cant help but think that you have failed to understand the story, and the point of the story.
@@bb-mf9yz It's funny because in a way I see the fans that do those things the same way I view Armin, Mikasa and the other people surrounding Eren, there are so many red flags Eren exhibits throughout the story and yet his friends seem to subconsciously and sometimes consciously ignore or misinterpret them. They have an idealized version of him that they see until it is too late, and in a way the fans view the story in the same way. The story didn't end up being the story they thought they were getting and thus are blind sided by it. At least Armin and Mikasa accepted what was in front of them and came to terms with it instead of endlessly throwing a fit about it hahaha.
@@bb-mf9yz I find if you view the story more as a mythological parable much like the Norse mythology the story clearly finds a ton of inspiration from, it becomes a lot easier to accept and even seems much more brilliant. (Odin is fated to die in Ragnarok and every effort to change his fate only solidifies it more and it's pretty easy to see the similarities of Odin's story and Eren's but AoT is just far more fleshed out and tackles a variety of topics/existential questions through different characters) That and every time some whines about Eren actually getting emotional about Mikasa I can't help but roll my eyes. Imagine thinking getting emotional in your dying confession to your best life long friend makes you a "simp" or a brat. Yeah, his feelings for her weren't heavily built upon in the story but there's a few moments where it shows in subtle ways which is far more interesting story telling than flat out stating it in an inner monologue, honestly if you couldn't see it you simply aren't very perceptive. And why waste more pages on making it obvious in the story when it's ultimately not a major factor and he's only got so many pages to work with? His outburst just served to try and humanize him more.
1:54:57 HE ALREADY knew that sasha is gonna die. He couldnt do anything against it. Thats why he got a little breakdown hearing her last word. He saw her simple wish/dream and she still had to die. After learning the future one more time, he also knew that hanji will die he cant prevent it. U are getting misleaded again. He cant CHANGE the future, but he can still take his actions so that this future will take place. because of that thinking that he has to change the things so that this future will come true leaded to this future. He knew his mother will die so he had to make dina go this way so that comes true.
That isn't confirmed. He could ve breaking down because she died. Also keep in mind that the memory shards are the only things he had at this point. Sasha wasn't in the shards.
How is Hanji dying inevitable? While Sasha's death could be attributed to Eren's actions at least it was beyond Eren's control that Gabi pulled the trigger. Meanwhile Eren had complete control of the Titans that Hanji was trying to slow down. Not only that, he had some level of clairvoyance, where he was observing the alliance in their efforts to stop him. Logically speaking he could have stopped Hanji from dying by slowing down the Titans but he didn't.
1:50:38 you cant compare that to breaking bad! The difference is that eren saw the future. He really doesnt know where that desire came from. Maybe it came bc he saw the future but maybe just bc of his nature and maybe both. He doesnt know! He also said that he wanted to do that. But he cant say why. I havent seen breaking bad but i think that walter can seperate future from past unlike as eren and bc of that he also knows WHY he wanted to do that for himself.
Wait a minute….. he said he didn’t know if his friends would survive the rumbling… so if the friends were the priority the WHOLE time why did he go through with it in the first place? Helloooo
@@bunfagam3021 well if you watch it he said Eren begins the series childish and he ends it childish so it makes sense. I think that is a contradiction to say us witnessing him growing up and becoming more thoughtful, pragmatic, and able to see things in shades of grey was us witnessing genuine character progression then in the same video saying he started the series childish and ended it childish
@@BROWNSMAGIC Eren did grow as a character and understand all the concepts you stated but at the end of the day, his own selfish desire to fight for “freedom” lead to him rejecting all of those ideas for the sake of doing what he wanted
1:22:50 , in my opinion, the reason he didn't send the message out to his friends to try to get them to stop him is because he already knew he would be stopped (when obtaining the Founding Titan) and there's nothing that could change that. Now as for him not trying before seeing the future and having the Founding Titan. I believe that Eren knew he wouldn't have convinced Armin and his friends because it would have conflicted with their beliefs.
What really grinds my gears about Eren and Armin's characters in the end is: This dude Eren just murdered millions of people and Armin is berating him about Mikasa's feelings.....Who tf cares about Mikasa's feelings at a time like that? How Mikasa feels has nothing to do with the fact that Eren just killed millions (for no reason, according to him). Throughout the entire story, Mikasa was never Eren's sole focus and that's really what bothers me about the incel outburst from Eren. It was completely irrelevant and came out of nowhere. It adds no depth to Eren's character nor does it answer why he did the Rumbling nor does it answer for any of his actions at all.
So you are telling me there was no interest in mikasa coming from eren throughout the whole series. So the scarf scene dosnt exist or the first panel of the manga. It was literally hinted at since the beginning. Also chapter 123 where he asks mikasa what he is to him. There are also subtle details like in 121 where he was looking at the scene where he was wrapping the scarf around mikasa. But no I’m wrong he never showed interest I’m just making up a false scenario in my head.
139 happened during 131. He had JUST started the rumbling, so no he didn't kill millions and then talk to Armin. He had an outburst because that's how he really felt and I guess Yams didn't have enough panels to make that more clear. But when he gives Mikasa a 'dream' you can see how much he's changed and is now content with dying. He tells Mikasa to forget about him showing his growth.
@@ashuraamvs9638 You Scarf Enthusiasts love using that eye-rolling scene as evidence to prove that Eren loves Mikasa when it's the most vague "love scene" of all time. They were literally 9 years old and complete strangers to each other. A child wrapping a scarf around another child who just went through an extremely traumatic experience *does not* automatically mean requited love partners for life. How about comforting Mikasa because her life will never be what it was just a few hours ago and she was most likely cold, having to be interrogated outside by Grisha and the MPs?? Chapter 123 when Eren asked Mikasa how she felt about him *was not* Eren ultimately saying he has romantic feelings for her. As blunt and brash as Eren is, why not just say he loves her right then and there, if that's how he truly feels, instead of being vague and complicating things?? Eren was looking for an excuse there to run away with Mikasa so he didn't have to do The Rumbling and kill millions of innocent people. The intentions on Eren's part there weren't romantic at all. Literally all of Eren's interactions with Mikasa throughout the series are either him abusing her or just extremely vague things that a human being who has a decent amount of sympathy for the life of another human being. If it was so outwardly obvious that Eren loved Mikasa all along, Eren's character in 139 wouldn't be so controversial to fans still till this day. Like seriously, it's more convincing that Eren has romantic feelings for Armin over his so-called "romantic feelings" for Mikasa. They have a worse love story than Twilight....
@@digestmymind Dude, what are you talking about? Literally in the beginning of their conversation, Armin says he's worried about the world retaliating on Paradis because Eren did the Rumbling and Eren responds that he wiped out 80% of humanity before the Alliance stopped him. How the hell is this taking place just as The Rumbling started...???
@@ProlificPops Eren says that by the end he'll have wiped out 80% because they managed to stop him. He knows this because he can see the future through memories. Go back to 131 and you'll see Armin was taken into Paths, but no other dialogue or scenes with Armin in Paths until 139. Remember that time in Paths moves differently. What's shown in the panel in 131 is that Armin sees into the Paths and sees Eren's child self. Then in the very next panel Annie is talking to him. He starts a dialogue with Annie as though nothing ever happened. What happens during 139 is a conversation Eren had with Armin during 131, which he then erased his memories and told Armin he'd get them back later. Armin was given his memories back after successfully managing to stop Eren. That is when 139 occurs, and Armin wakes up afterwards.
I'm honest, I think AOT has a "Plot Twist" moment just like 5-toubun. However, the author should have known that if the fan (especially big fandom) can't think about that possibility, then it must mean that the ending is very "unconvincing", "unthinkable" in the first place, and if you force the plot twist to surprise everyone, then yes, it surprised everyone...
Saying school cast isnt a valdid source for Erens character is like saying interviews with Isayama arent valid either. Yeah, none of them are IN the story, but they are still the creator explaining Eren.
@@saintitchief No, because School cast was planned from the beginning, it was at the end of every manga. JK saying dumbedore is gay came out of nowhere and wasnt planned or built up over the span of the Harry potter books. School cast wasnt something Isayama threw together after the manga just to say "This is Erens character now". School life doesnt change Erens character in any way either, it just reinforces what we already knew about him and just gave us additional conext.
@@saintitchief dude the other guy is right. School caste is technically part of the manga and an AU-verse extension and commentary of the story there’s also Isas interviews to back this up It’s like saying the ovas aren’t part of the story But even more so because Isayama actually wrote this while the ovas were created by the anime staff( as far as I know)
@@ginafilarski5728 But didn't invaderz say in his video that attack on titan only has 1 universe (timeline). So if the school cast is canon then that means alternative universes are canon in attack on titan. Doesn't that mean that invaderz contradicted himself. Also if alternative universes are canon in aot then that only backs up Aoe theories.
1:03:16 You're kidding, right? The answer is literally in your face. And he doesn't say that things would have happened the same way, but that the rules of the universe wouldn't change if someone witnesses the future or not. The universe we live in could be a deterministic one and nobody needs to look into the future to make it true, it is true even if nobody sees the future, that's what he's saying.
@@saintitchiefEren would have sent his memories to the past because he would have wanted to do so to manipulate the past and make things go the way that they went, you clearly know this and that's what made you question what he said. So the future is set not because of some supernatural force but because the characters would want to make those decisions. The thing is that you misunderstood what he was trying to convey on that sentence "In a deterministic universe, even if the future is not seen, does not mean that different outcomes are possible" The thing here is that he wasn't talking specifically about the universe of AoT, because in the universe of AOT the future IS SEEN and that affects the timeline, he was talking about how in a deterministic universe, if nobody sees the future and the universe is deterministic then things are set to happen in a certain way because people will make decisions from their own will, and there are no different outcomes because the people in said universe wouldn't be able to make another choice because they wouldn't want to make another choice. If Eren had never seen the future (universe that doesn't exist) he would eventually have wanted to send his memories back to make the future that he wants to come true, so it would create a loop were he would know that he sends his memories back and when the time came he would send his memories back not only because he knows he would do it, but because he would have wanted to do it anyway.
@@yagoldt6195 I feel like an “easy” way to get this through ppls minds is to put like this: Kay so since eren can see the future through his own dads memories of his future self , everything essentially is happening at the same time. So don’t think of it as a timeline anymore. Think of it as something that happened, is happening and will happen no matter what. So now what’s left? Nothing else! It’s a loop. Not destiny, but just the natural way time works whether you see the future or not. future eren sends his own memories of the future back to his father so that eren can see. Okay? So yes because of this, he managed to start his own story. Yes he knew it would happen anyway, but that’s because future eren caused it. Now loop this. It’s infinity. Basically impossible to fathom. That’s why I like the resolution to the story. Because it’s essentially something that is supposed to be too difficult for the average human mind to understand. So much so that even the author can’t explain it himself. Just thinking about it logically can help a bit but not give you the entire understanding. So In other words: realistic. There is so much we don’t understand in our universe and aot kinda does that exact thing.. it’s just something we can’t understand and never will. It’s open to interpretation BECAUSE it’s realistic. That’s exactly how everything in life works. (I know I’m a month late. Just wanted to get my thoughts out there lmao)
But again much like Kenny, Eren made the Choice his own choice. He made the choice to send memories back to himself, he mad the choice to alter history, he made the choice to use the Rumbling. He wanted his freedom and by extension his peoples freedom his friend’s freedom. But his friends chose a path against him, and b/c of that He made the choice to fight them. 139 just makes him high on Paths only to find out he had no choice at all which stinks because Attack on Titan’s story has always been about making a choice and facing the consequence of that choice. Levi said it himself, make the choice you least regret………… Kill your friends, kill billions, and get your freedom for the greater good Save your friends, allow them to kill you, and let your island get destroyed
12:54 - 14:03 Eren is shown ahead of the others (focused on the future/moving forward) and didn’t grab the shell from Armin, which represents the appreciation of the ocean (he does so in 139, a callback to this scene). He did not enjoy the ocean like the others. Why? He didn’t let himself as he was focused on his lack... but freedom is right in front of him. It’s a mental barrier. This scene is significant for Eren for the reason you stated: he should be enjoying the ocean. 14:20 - 15:12 Armin knows about the threat of the outside you said, but he’s still enjoying the ocean. He’d then be “pretending this isn’t happening” as you say? The reality of the CURRENT situation is that they’re at the ocean. A milestone like you said. Eren is not facing this reality, he’s not seeing the beauty of this reality and instead is fixed on the cruelty, that part of reality (future, as he’s ahead. They’re fighting in the future not now, so why not enjoy this moment?). He’s the one who isn’t facing the full current reality, only the cruelty of it and the future to come. Now facing reality isn’t the same as accepting it, as he doesn’t accept the reality of the situation and plans to destroy the cruelty entirely. To Eren, he can’t enjoy the beauty until he destroys all cruelty since he cannot accept that. The others could enjoy it, so this thinking of Eren’s is not the “true” meaning of freedom. It’s his twisted one that enslaved him. This scene shows that as it could not allow him to enjoy the simple moments. Because no, we’re not free yet (according to Eren). 28:32 - 30:06 Eren isn’t doing it only because he wants to. But that’s his main reason. Like with Reiner as well, if they came back with nothing they’d probably be killed along with their families. That’s one reason for him but his main one was to be respected - a want. Eren wanted to destroy the world meaning he wanted to rid his enemies blocking him from “freedom”. He did it because he “wanted” freedom. That’s the primary reason. He can’t have freedom until all of his blockages are gone. 33:04 - 35:45 If everyone is a slave to something, how can they be free? If everyone is fighting for their dreams, and this fighting is what enslaves them, how can they be free? While fighting, one can either enjoy it or not. One can either give up on something or not (especially if what they must give up on is not a source of happiness and far-fetched). When they cannot accept reality, they cannot be free as reality includes the beauty and cruelty of the world. If one doesn’t see the beauty, they can’t be happy. If one doesn’t accept the cruelty, they also cannot be happy as this means they are always dissatisfied at the world just for being the way it is. Having a dream be a source of happiness is what makes you free. (If it isn’t a source of happiness, like for Eren it’s a source of anger, then giving up on that source of hatred by simply accepting things as they are and finding happiness makes you free). Eren is a slave as he does not take the shell, but only after he accepts reality (grounded panel, the one where he sits facing the destruction as opposed to freedom panel where he ignores reality) does he take the shell. Being literally grounded and accepting the reality you were faced with is when you can enjoy it. So a slave is forced to gather cotton. According to real life common sense logic, they are simply a slave. According to story logic (artistic/thematic logic should I put it?), more specifically for the story of AOT, the cotton farmer is only a slave if they are miserable doing what they are doing. They are free if they enjoy what they are doing and do it willingly (I know, this would be stupid if applied to real life but bear in mind this is a story portraying philosophical themes), kind of like the boy who willingly went to the tree 🤔. “In this meaningless world and our meaningless lives, we hoped to find some meaning.” as Traute Caven (worked for Kenny) says, sounds a lot like absurdism. Philosopher Camus used the myth of Sisyphus to explore the dilemma of searching for a meaning to life in a world with no inherent meaning. Sisyphus was forced to push a rock up a hill only for it to roll back down and the process repeats. Just like the cotton farmer. Oh, and just like Zeke, when he catches and throws the baseball. It’s all pointless. Why search for a meaning in life when it’s all pointless? Because you can enjoy doing it. The lesson to be learned from Sisyphus is that he must accept the absurdity of his condition but push the rock up the hill willingly, happily. The same conclusion is reached by Zeke, in paths. He accepts that the world may be meaningless, but he enjoys the simple repetition of catching and throwing regardless. Because life is cruel, but also beautiful. I think it is quite clear that accepting the cruel yet beautiful world is a theme in the story which ties into its meaning of freedom, yes? Many apply the first kind of logic to critique the story and especially Eren, without seeing it through the second lens. Or even critique the second lens’ view of the story using this real life logic. But at the end of the day, the story portrayed its themes and these themes may not make sense in real life, but this isn’t real life. It’s a story, where characters may make stupid decisions when it comes to real life, but smart decisions when it comes to what’s right for the story. Eren is in a bad situation with the world against them. But does this mean he can’t enjoy the ocean? No. So despite the cruelty of their situation, they can still enjoy life and be free then. I think this is what you were trying to say when you brought up the bad living conditions of the cotton farmer. That argument looks like it comes from the first kind of logic which is why I brought that up and established this as a theme in the story. When taken literally, someone is suffering and that’s it. That makes them a slave. Taken thematically (according to AOT), someone is suffering but when they see that it is not ONLY suffering and embrace their situation, they’re free. Again, it may look stupid in real life because how could you enjoy life when you have horrible living conditions/people trying to kill you? Through another lens however, it is not stupid for the story since that is what it’s trying to say. Those who think a theme makes the story dumb ultimately think the theme itself is dumb and most likely don’t agree with it but not agreeing with an idea doesn’t mean someone can’t enjoy its portrayal. It’s basically saying that according to the story’s definition of freedom, Eren is not free. Not because of his living conditions however, but the way he views it. Freedom is internal not external like Eren sees it. Once he accepts the cruelty in the world and finds beauty, he can be free. Again, poor living conditions itself may mean one isn’t free but that is not the story’s definition of freedom. And the story is the topic at hand, not real life. You said: “It makes no sense, it makes no logical sense. We’re not talking about a ‘theoretical, slave to my mind’ here. We’re talking *literally slaves.* Like as in, *I can not stop doing this.* Even if I wanted to, I can’t. It’s not my mentality, it’s physical things around me that are stopping me from being able to do what I want to do. For example, Eren - ‘I want to go here. I can’t because if I do they will kill me.’ I just don’t get it I don’t understand.” Does this sound different through a different lens? Literally, someone can not stop doing something. And that makes them a slave. Thematically, according to AOT (which is the topic at hand), someone can not stop doing something but that does not make them a slave. Instead it is their mentality which makes them a slave not their physical surroundings. This is the case in AOT. Not real life like the example you gave to compare to the story. Someone can’t do something? Then accept the reality of the situation. Don’t force the negative implications of not accepting you can’t get your way unto innocent people. Keep in mind that what Eren “wanted to do” (and was stopped from doing because of his external world) was childish. So you “don’t understand” because you’re applying real life logic to make sense of a story. In other words, it doesn’t make sense to you because you are using your own definition of “slave” and “freedom” (stemming from real life logic) to make sense of a story which uses those terms in a way that makes no sense if looking at those terms through the wrong definitions given the context, context being AOT. Does this make sense? ⬇️ cont’d
44:24 - 45:07 You said that School Castes does not take place in the story of AOT. Yes, it’s a different universe. But this other universe is used to explain the character of Eren. Isayama said that the characters remain the same in both universes it’s just that their environment is different, remember? “The characters in (School Castes) have the same personality. Although the environment is different, the inner parts of them remain the same.” - Hajime Isayama And if you’re saying this isn’t enough since it does not take place in the story, then you can look at Eren saying he’s born this way, or that he’s “just me”. On Eren / Zeke and nature vs. nurture, you can see it as Zeke taking the glasses of his father figure whom he’d eaten, representing him adopting the (literal) lens he sees the world through. For Eren, he is shown holding his dad’s glasses after eating him, but doesn’t wear them. He doesn’t think the way he does because of his dad like Zeke thought. Zeke thought it was because of his nurture, but it wasn’t. Then Eren said “I’m just me. I always have been.” He also said “Our father didn’t make me that way. I have been like this since birth.” Eren says “I dunno why but, when I think about taking my freedom back, strength flows through me.” (Referring to the courage to do things he’d otherwise not be able to do). He literally said he doesn’t know why freedom is so important to him. If he knew, he could have said something like “Since my mom was eaten, thinking about gaining my freedom back gives me courage.” but he didn’t. There’s also the way he killed the kidnappers which a normal child wouldn’t do. Just a random thing to note is that when Rod told Kenny to go chase something else, he said he’d be bored. 47:00 - 48:35 Not necessarily that he’s just evil and wants to kill people, more specifically that he wants to *fight for freedom.* The freedom he wants is childish, and he tries to justify it by saying it’s for his people. So he’s not justifying killing people because he wants to, he’s justifying fighting for freedom because he wants to. 1:03:15 - 1:03:29 Sending memories back has been determined. 1:05:55 - 1:06:18 It is determined that he will send memories back because that’s what he would’ve done anyway. He did it because he wanted the rumbling. It was because of his nature that the future OF sending memories back is determined. The memories he sent were the ones he sent to Grisha, and he had to do that for his goal. 1:21:13 - 1:23:34 By the time he knew they would come to stop him, it was too late. He couldn’t try to push them to join the Yeagerists now. He can’t try to convince them in paths because he already saw it happen. Trying would be useless. When he sent messages back to them he already knew they would stop him. He can’t change the future, why would he tell them to join him? Apologizing to Ramzi didn’t change the future. He knew it wouldn’t, it wasn’t an attempt to change the future like telling them to join him would be. I don’t understand that comparison. 1:36:15 The thing that was childish was Eren’s goal of “freedom” and the way he went about it, refusing to accept anything that wasn’t his ideal. Eren not being able to forgive himself and accepting the price of his actions is not childish. That is not what you’re supposed to think is childish. You’re right to say it doesn’t sound childish but no one said you were wrong. Eren accepting the price of his actions is highlighted in the grounded panel again, as it foils the freedom panel completely. He is grounded (like a flower, which represents freedom for many characters but for Eren it’s birds (corrupted)) and not in the sky. Not an ignorant child with his head in the clouds (literally), but a man who is grounded (literally), facing the reality of the destruction he caused. He is accepting the cruelty that he caused and not rejecting it like he was when he was portrayed as a child (by turning the titan smoke into clouds - delusion). That shows that this right here, “accepting the price of his actions”, is not what you are supposed to think is childish. It is the opposite. I don’t think anyone is saying you are wrong about that. But remember that up until now was Eren really childish. It’s his conclusion, so of course characters have a “learning” conclusion (usually). So yeah, in his conclusion he won’t be childish and instead kinda learns from his childish behaviour. If that makes sense. That part of the conclusion is the part where he learns, more of a fitting conclusion, and it’s meant to be the opposite of childish. Again, you are right to say it doesn’t look childish to you but no one said you’re wrong. When he is described as childish that is not what’s being referenced.
1:44:40 - 1:56:45 The compromise was because his friends were going to stop him. He valued his friends’ lives and that’s what he has to gain from the compromise. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t paths outside of time and space? They can’t just sit in paths because if they were to stay there for ten years, they’d come back without any time passing in the real world. His nature is not to destroy but to search for freedom, so no his nature does not contradict his desire to protect his friends. What the story shows us is Eren wanting to see the scenery (“freedom”) and wanting his friends to live long happy lives. Eren has said these things. What Eren has also said is that he would’ve flattened the world if he didn’t know they’d stop him. From this we know that the reason he didn’t do it was because they came and we already know he wants them to live long happy lives. So that compromise there makes sense because of what he says in 139. Like how in 139 he also states that he knew of Mikasa’s choice which will end the curse and that it was to arrive at that moment. So we know that that was why he stopped as well. We are directly told what Eren was going for before and after the compromise. What needs to be made more clear is that he gained all of the memories when he got full power of the founder. So the anime could hopefully show a brief moment of memories flooding in once he unlocks the full power or something? 139 does not show making his friends be seen as heroes his primary goal. Armin literally asks him if he really did it all for their sake after he said this, and he ignores the question as it’s not true. Isayama made Eren out to be someone who cared about his friends when he said he wanted them to be regarded as heroes. This is true about Eren. Eren is also someone who would do almost anything to achieve his freedom. Isayama then showed this, because it is also true about Eren. These are both real aspects about Eren so what do you mean he can’t do both? His primary objective was freedom but that doesn’t mean he values freedom more than his friends. Attaining freedom AND protecting his friends were his primary objectives. We knew that that scenery was important to Eren for a while. Human nature is not a theme in Breaking Bad the same way it is for Eren. So yes saying “I don’t know why I did it” for Walter would make no thematic sense. Eren saying I don’t know doesn’t mean he doesn’t know why he wanted to do it the way it may sound. He knows why he wanted to do it - for freedom. But why did he want freedom so bad? He doesn’t know. People thought that when Eren said that it was stupid because how could he not know why he did it? He knows why he did it and we know he knows this. It was shown to us. The fact that people think this line is a retcon goes to show that Isayama let us know that Eren knows what his goal is and we know what his goal is: freedom. That part is clear but what isn’t clear is that people didn’t know that the line was meant to show Eren doesn’t understand why searching for freedom is in his nature. It could be made more clear by him saying again that he’s ‘just been himself, that’s all’ in that moment? The facial expression in this scene is also made to resemble the face he made when he said “I’m just me” in 121. The resemblance should be made more clear in the anime. Yeah he said it’s because he wanted it. What he said he doesn’t know is WHY he WANTED it. Armin knows how much Eren cares for Mikasa and makes him spill his feelings when he mocks him saying “Mikasa ought to forget about a heartbreaker like you and find happiness elsewhere.” (‘What you did was not in her best interest yet you say it was for us. You’re the heartbreaker and she’ll be happy because of someone else not you’) “Well... she might easily find a good man...” (‘She’ll find someone else (know you love her) who’s actually good for her (you want to be with her don’t you)’). Does Armin’s face not look manipulating when he says this? By getting Eren to admit he does want to be with Mikasa he forces Eren to admit he loves her back, and if he cared about her in that way he could’ve stayed with her which is something they both would’ve wanted. That outcome would be the dream in 138, but why didn’t that come true? Because of Eren’s nature. After admitting despite doing this (apparently all for them) he really wants to live with Mikasa (which would’ve been the best for the two of them), he says why he really wanted to do this initially. Because how could he do something all for them if they could’ve just fled? He made Eren admit he wanted that which makes it possible which then begs the question: why was it not possible then? (Freedom as his goal too) Maybe Eren knew he can’t keep this up anymore. Plus he was going to trust everything with Armin anyway. If Armin went about it the way you say by going “🤜 I don’t believe you tell me why you really did it!” it may not be as effective. He wants Eren to feel comfortable with telling him so this won’t work, but also pressured. The execution of the conversation between Eren and Armin should be improved in the anime as it shouldn’t be as rushed as it was in the manga. No, 139 does not show freedom as his secondary motivation. He says that he would’ve done it if he didn’t see them stop him. Meaning making them heroes was not the primary objective. But his primary objective being freedom was halted as he can’t kill his friends. “Freedom” still looks like his primary objective. Sasha died before he saw all of the memories. After she died he asked what her last words were to confirm that the memory he saw was true. He did have an issue with her death. Not sure if he knew of Hange’s death. When that happened he was making it look like they were heroes so if he let them kill him prior to Hange’s death and make it easy, they all might’ve died because the rest of the world didn’t believe them. So we know he did it primarily for “freedom” but caring for those close to him stopped him. The 8 additional pages show that Eren failed to end the cycle of hatred like he originally would’ve possibly achieved through a full rumbling. Are you saying that the extra pages make Eren look bad for caring for others? The people he cared about were his friends and they are shown to live to old age (Mikasa) in the extra pages. It showed he succeeded in that. The result of his genocide is not supposed to look good.
1:08:03 he answered your question right there. Even if grisha tried to not give the founder eren, it will happen anyways because it is determined. He had no choice there, he just follows the path what he saw.
This explanation is so dumb. Meine Güte wie alt bist du? Determinism gleicht nicht alle unlogischen Dinge aus. Grisha wollte eren den Titanen nicht mehr geben aber eren hat ihm etwas gezeigt, was zeke auch gesagt hat. Hacksayama hat es nie gezeigt
That literally makes no sense lmao. Grisha giving Eren the Titan is a massive plothole and will remain that way forever since the manga concluded. Kids nowadays..
@@triumphant8637 true, even zeke said he entrusted it to eren because he saw something in the future that eren shows him, that is yet to happen and eren talked about a scenery so it can’t be 131 haha. Retcon
@@meawiyaothman7872 yup, and Grisha literally fought against Eren in the final battle as well. Makes no sense why he would give him his Titan and then fight him. Straight up plothole
Could you possibly respond to Just A Critic's review *cough* defense *cough* of chapter 139? He says some stuff you already kinda respond to here but some points he brings up I can't believe how he came up with them.
i think the ending abd erens character as a whole was very well written. But it just wasnt told in the best way. if i had to describe it in one one sentece it would be "good writing, bad storytelling".
You know, my theory is not that it is that bad storytelling. I would say that Isyama intentionally made the ending that poor with informations 'cause he wanted it to be misterious. There is so much things to explain that he could write Shingeki no Kyojin once more.
The goal of what Isyama did was great., but things were off in the presentation. The time predictions needed better explanations, as did Zeke inspriring those previous shifters in paths, as did the formation of the alliance. Zeke and Armin shouting "Lend me your strength"" mirrored exactly what Eren said to Ymir. Zeke not being able to bring over Ymir to his side , but instead after being inspired by Armin, and duplicating Eren's actions to win the other shifters over was an interesting story element. But at the time it just came off as so cheesy. A single extra panel of dialog could have drastically improved the reception of that chapter.
@@euph1na Well part 2 of the final season seems too be slated too have 12 episodes. If that is the case it is too rushed and would be bad. But the consensus is that they will only be going till chapter 132 or so. Then a movie or something similar after that is expected. In which case the pacing would be perfect.
Regardless of the events playing out in the end, the execution is key. The series of events will fall flat no matter how consistent if the author does not space the information out and keep it consistent. After I finished 138 and learned that 139 was the final chapter, it was painfully obvious that the ending and epilogue did not have enough time to execute in a satisfactory way. There was too much information to deliver and too many people to receive proper endings in that time frame. Death Note (Anime) also does this in its final episode and the final reveals are twisted and contrived and there is a lack of information about the aftermath of Light’s death or his effect on the world.
What's the problem with death notes ending? (ok it was a litte contrived, but apart from that?) Why would we need to see the world continue? Without the death Notes the world was implied to function similar to the real world. It is very clear in Death Note that Light was delusional. He believed that he could do good by murdering everyone he considered a criminal. He just hears about criminals in the news and kills them immediately without investigating the case at all. The difference to AOT is that post time skip Erens motivation was complicated, weird and largely unexplained.
@@richardhauer8391 I will give you that post world state is arbitrary (Despite the fact that Light did enough damage to change that), but if you cared about the remaining characters at all, having no epilogue cliffhangers all those arcs. The manga admittedly did not give much to work with, but the entire second half was lackluster in comparison to the first. The point though is that trying to pool the big reveal information into the final chapter usually will end up feeling contrived or BS, analogous to trying to finish an essay question within the last five minutes of a test.
@@genesisnitsua2571 Yeah, I agree. The last episode would have been better if it had more time to wrap things up. It is some time ago that I watched it. But still, the character arcs are mostly complete. The shinigami had his fun and declares this to be the end of his adventure with throwing death notes into the world. Light loses his last battle with last american detective and dies.
@@richardhauer8391 Maybe Attack on Titan might have been better just cutting out 139 and just had a victory and epilogue without seeing Eren explain himself after in a similar manner then. If that were the case, him seeing his desired view of freedom and declaration that he will fight to the finish would have allowed speculation rather than dealing with the definitive answers.
@@genesisnitsua2571 Interesting idea. I always thought that the Ymir backstory of why she allowed the titan curse to end, was unnecessary. Just beating up the Spine creature would have been enough. Then Armin can say a last "Fuck you and now die Eren" in the Coordinate and then the story ends. The most peace loving guy in story saying "thank you" at the end is too ambiguous.
Armin told Eren when he was gassing him up to fight Annie. That he has to abandon his humanity to reach his goals, Eren did exactly that but look what armin did🤦🏻♂️
Armin wasn’t the type of character like bro ? His whole character literally opposes eren in every way He would not go and fight with people head on he will try to understand them and calm the fight unlike eren who will just lash at people (Reiner and berthold in s2) Their freedoms were literally opposite Armin cherished even the smallest of freedom he could get While eren wanted a freedom which didn’t existed as stated in this video
53:55 isn't there a fatal flaw in reasoning? It's claimed that the Attack Titan Power is to send the user's memories to past users. Ok. But then how can Eren send the memories of the rumbling to Grisha if Eren doesn't have any memory of the rumbling yet because it hasn't happened? According to the author of the video, it should go like this: Eren has memories of X. He sends memories of X to Grisha. Eren inherits memories of Grisha, and thus seed his own memories of X. It's kind of a loop, but for this loop to happen there should be already existing memories of X. In other words, Eren shouldn't be able to send memories he *doesn't* have yet to Grisha. And yet Eren still fully knows what the future holds, for he is talking about "that scenery" (the rumbling) in the future. So how did Eren gained that future memory? One may argue that Eren sent his memories to Grisha when he was doing the rumbling, but if Eren can send his memories at any point he wants he should be able to send his memories of his own defeat. It could be said that Eren can only send his memories back to past users when he's in contact with a royal blood shifter, which is a fair point. But then it is later explained that Eren gained future memories of his own defeat, so he did know he will be stopped. Then, why didn't he send these memories as well? On a side note I think it's a shame that his character arc in the insurrection arc isn't mentioned at all in the video, as I think it's a pivotal point for Eren. But that's just me.
The attack titan only allows to see into the future and past of other attack titans (we don't know if it's sent memories or not it also seems to be somewhat random or linked to strong feelings) and the founder titan's power is to control memories (past, present and future memories???(maybe the timeline as well ???)) so it can technically happen but the main problem is that we have no idea of how any of those powers works nor do we know how and when Eren uses them so it's a huge guess on what makes sense and what doesn't especially when the rules are broken easily like the ackerman's being unaffected by the founder's power and Mikasa seeing this weird memory before killing Eren, it's inconsistent and makes no sense especially when Zeke died just a few moments before that, meaning that Eren didn't even had the founding power to begin with because of the rules for activating the founder's power with royal blood, also Eren saving bertholt by sending dina towards his house which means he can change the past????? too many nonesense either Eren has a power that makes him able to change litterally everything, or he doesn't have the power to change anything at all but the story seem to go both ways which makes absolutely no sense.... Grisha is smarter than Eren but he killed the royal family and himself going against his own morality, while perfectly knowing what was going to happen, how does that make any sense from the perspective of Grisha and why would he even consider giving the attack titan to Eren while perfectly knowing what was going to happen, i would've agreed if he was just being manipulated by Eren but it didn't seem to be the case this is also very illogical.... seems like Isayama got lost in his own story telling and didn't even know what he was telling in the end.....
Because the memories of the rumbling were sent later. Same reason Grisha said “things aren’t going to go your way, Zeke”. Same reason Eren was looking forward to “That scenery”. Those are memories from Eren a bit later, when he already had acquired the Founder and started the Rumbling. On a related note, Grisha asked Zeke to stop Eren because he didn’t know if the Rumbling would be completed. Hence, Eren didn’t know either until he got access to the full power of the founder.
1. The reason grisha gave his titan to eren was because after his meeting with zeke, grisha received memories of carla getting eaten. And as grisha is a very emotional character, he was fueled by revenge and gave his titan to eren. 2. Eren apologizing to Ramzi was purely to get erens feelings of his chest. This is obvious when you realize eren wasnt using a language that Ramzi could understand but instead used the eldian language which eren knew Ramzi didnt understand. As such, eren didnt try to convince his friends to join the jeagerists for two reasons A. He saw the future and knows that he cant change it. B. Even if he didnt see the future, he knows they would never agree to let humanity get wiped out
I’m an ending hater but your first point is somewhat incorrect. Grisha did not receive memories of Carla’s death. In Memories of the Future, he asked Eren why won’t he show him everything, when the walls fall, and whether Carla is safe after it happens. It’s Carla’s actual death that pushes Grisha to give Eren the Founding and Attack Titans. He changes his mind when Carla eventually dies, which might explain why Eren didn’t show Grisha in the first place.
@@Silver-iix oh yeah totally forgot that grisha can get info by witnessing events mb. But the point still stands since he gave the titan to eren after Carla died
I think you have to see the things said in the video not as the final definitive reason and complete understanding of Eren and his actions, but as part of it. Like it was said once, it was in Eren's nature that he would want to destroy the unfree world and in a certain way he was a "slave" to that desire, but it wasn't the only thing that made him do the things he did, the world would attack them and there was nothing else he could do to save his friends if not to use the rumbling, partially or fully. And that's whats so great about his writing, how so many things come together to shape him as a character, his philosophy, the situation of the world he was born in and his experiences. That video clarifies and focuses on one side of Eren's character and what makes him good, and you should see it as a part of Eren not all of his character and if you let that part join the whole, he becomes a much more interesting character.
@@saintitchief I made this comment because of what you had said at around 13:30 and it felt like you were taking what was being said in the video as the only reason Eren does what he does and thinks the way he does when actually it's a part of his character and the different layers that he has, but it looked like you were trying to take what was being said in the video and put it against the things you already know about the series and not trying to see more of the character.
After reading Sonic comics by Jolly Jack I can never see your pfp in normal way ever again. Anyway, good video, always nice to hear your thoughts on topic
Yeah I gotta disagree with what the dude in the video is saying, not you. The vision of freedom was for the Eldian people and their freedom from being titans and thus freedom in the world since the world no longer had to fear them. Eren definitely knew that he would die because he chose to die. There are two conditions to have Eldians gain freedom and removing the curse of the titans was just the first. The second is, like Tybur said, the world needs to see Eldians in the zone as victims of an unforeseen attack. In the same way, the Eldians of the walls needed to be seen as betrayed and on the defense from Eren Yaeger who sought the destruction of the world and the sterilization of their race. By making himself that enemy, he knew he would have to die. The same way that Willie knew for his plan to work he would also have to die. Edit: "You know what I despise more than anything? People who aren't free." This was absolutely a double meaning. He didn't mean that he has disdain for people who weren't free. It meant that he pitied them and wanted that freedom for them, even if it meant throwing his own freedom away. Which is the same sacrifice and true freedom that Kenny also attained. He gave up on his personal dream for the larger world. If the author intended for individual interpretation on the ending, then that's fine. But if people are confused by a complete conclusion that the author didn't mean to be ambiguous, then that's bad writing.
Just so people understand determinsm is NOT predeterminism. Predeterminism means when you were born an almight power had your life mapped out for you, meaning no free will. Determinism means your future is determined by your choices, by virtue of your innate nature. Meaning if you are a perfect predictor(This means you see the future, and every choice leading up to it) you can change your future. Eren became a perfect predictor once he unlocked the founder fully. This means Eren's choices were his choices he could've done things differently but chose not to. Remember Isayama has not confirmed this world is determinstic, so as far as I'm concerned Isayama f++ked up.
That Breaking Bad comparison doesn’t work. It would only make sense If Walter White experimented with drugs since he was a kid, going all out in the meth business later, with his family being the excuse. But Walter chose the path of breaking bad, after his diagnosis, when he was a good person before. While Eren has been this way from the start. It’s only the early circumstance of having no knowledge and Titans being literal monsters that made Eren look tame and morally good in comparison. It’s only later when we learn how Eren would act being confronted with the morally grey reality. Eren answered Armins question the same as Walt did, because they both wanted to do that for themselves, but the question of Armin goes deeper than breaking bad. While it’s clear that Walt wanted to do bad stuff because of the thrill and excitement it’s still open to interpretation why Eren was "bad" since he was little. Was it fate, his future self influencing him, Grisha telling him that he’s free or simply the nature that he was born with? He doesn’t know and never will, which is the point.
audio down bad cause my webcam picked up my audio rip me.
here is my written video response to this video:
The Jaegerberg Theory
ua-cam.com/video/uGSG1ZCjwk4/v-deo.html
Eren also says that he didn’t know if he was gonna be stopped but was going to keep moving forward anyway chapter 139 is just so bad written lmao he says it was his plan to make them look like the hero but then also says this in the same chapter 😭
man i want you to sacrifice your time and life by debunking clowns who defend the ending.
@@fdtc1234 this is explained in Invaderzz video. Before he started the rumbling, he wasn’t sure if he was gonna be stopped. After he got the power of the founding titan and started the rumbling, he saw the whole future and realized he would be stopped, which caused him to change his ultimate goal from flattening the world to making his friends look like heroes of the world.
@@xancarey9993
first of all making his friends hero will never work and if it is then thats some next level BS
and second lets say they did the only reason the outside world accepted their peace is to buy time for them to recover and replenish their industrial might and destroy the devils at the island once and for all.
Strategic planning
He couldn't have convinced them to join the yeagerists because by the point that he learned they were going to stop him the rumbling had already been activated and he was a hulking monstrosity
In the conversation with Reiner during Willy Tybur's speech, you can clearly see the moment he accepts that he has to destroy the world, that's when Willy talks about destroying Paradis to erase the "Island devils". He realized that civilization outside the walls would never allow him to have his freedom, the opportunity to explore the outside. To live without being caged and without fear of an impending doom.
Again, Eren WANTS to destroy the world, he already decided that long ago.
The problem with claiming that the ending we got was the only possible one, when dealing with pre-determined timelines and paradoxes, is that they only become inevitable when we see/know the whole picture. That basically means that, until we’re aware of where the story will go, Isayama could have made it go anywhere and called it inevitable. He could have just as reasonably and logically made it inevitable that Eren would have completed the rumbling by taking away their power to stop him. That also aligned with his goals and would have kept them safe. And all that would have had to change for it to make sense is for Eren to not have seen his defeat when he gained the power of the founder, which was something that we only knew he knew in the final chapter, something that easily could have been omitted.
So basically, the issue is that ultimately Isayama had complete control over which direction the story would ‘inevitably’ go in, despite not necessarily having to lay the groundwork for all of it until after the fact. That’s convenient for him and definitely fits with his style of retroactively giving new perspectives on the past story through twists, but it doesn’t necessarily feel like good/compelling storytelling. He clearly had an agenda with how he wanted it to end, and the mechanics of the story allowed him to insert that, rather than requiring him have the story go where it most naturally would have gone.
For example, why was it that Eren’s goal of protecting his friends overrode his goal of experiencing freedom, when he could have achieved them both by prioritizing experiencing freedom and just taking their titan powers and means of pursuing him away? The only real reason was because Isayama chose to prioritize that in that moment. And don’t get me wrong, that allowed for more action and confrontation than we would have gotten otherwise, but those weren’t necessarily worth it narratively, especially since we had limited conflict between characters, such as through confrontations/arguments. I can understand that it may be true that, if Eren succeeded in the rumbling, he may eventually end up being discontented by his lack of freedom once again, in which case he might then create a conflict that destroys Eldia and his friends, as is suggested by the AoT Caste context. But if that’s the case, then let us see that. Let us see Eren truly be consumed by his corrupt, destructive primary goal of experiencing freedom, and let us see his complete fall from all redeeming qualities as his secondary desires are crushed by his overwhelming primary one. He has the motivations and the power required for that to make sense. And it would just be more consistent, since it would allow for a single goal (his inherent nature) to be his most pressing one.
But it’s a tough call. It would give Eren more agency, but even something like that would feel heavyhanded on Isayama’s part, like it’s meant to paint Eren as an irredeemable, or at least tragic, villain. At least in the story as it is, he is more multidimensional and nuanced than another way the story may have gone. For example, if you believe that Eren was accepting a compromise with the rumbling as this video suggests, then it does somewhat redeem him and paints him as having done good for both Eldia and the world for ridding it of titans and for willingly facing consequences for his actions. I do at least appreciate that according to this analysis of Eren, the end of his character feels like a parallel to Kenny’s - choosing to let go of his destructive dream before it consumes him and all he loves. Especially if he had any agency at all regarding the goals he tried to pursue after he foresaw his defeat. That complexity certain does fit in with how most characters have been treated, which is a good thing.
Ultimately, I just think trying to tell the story with aspects of time-traveling memories and predetermined timelines may have kind of screwed it over. It made it much harder to pull off a completely logical ending without it feeling forced in some way. And it also feels like so many characters’ agency were lost/sacrificed, at least in part, for the spectacle of it. If he got it right, it would have been an absolute masterpiece, but it’s incredibly hard to land such a story without causing some inconsistencies, which, as we’ve seen, allow for wildly different interpretations to be had. That’s not necessarily bad if you want to spark discourse. But I think the discourse should be revolving around the implications of a clear ending, rather than people disputing the legitimacy of the ending entirely.
First of all, you have an overall nice take on it, although I disagree. But I wanted to address one thing in that, Eren’s goal to protect his friends didn’t override his goal to experience his own freedom. He KNEW that the rumbling wasn’t necessary for his friends, but to him it was necessary for his own freedom so he went through with it. That would mean the opposite happened of what you said, right?
its fucking genius though. he created a set of rules which let him write whatever he wants and he makes it makes sense. it complicated, and led to a lot of misunderstandings from people he dont dive deep into the anime, but its genius
There wasn't predetermined timelines. Eren didn't do the rumbling because he saw it ahead of time. He saw it ahead of time because he was going to do the rumbling. And if the knowledge of the rumbling would have stopped him from doing it, he wouldn't have been able to see it happening to begin with. The point was to emphasis just how inevitable the rumbling was, just because that is who Eren is .
And Eren was against using the founding titans power to prevent the freedom of his friends. He even said it as such. So once he saw his friends would overpower him (which he didn't know until he actually started the rumbling), the best he could do was at least make his friends appear as heroes, and use paths to say good bye to them. But everybody did actually have agency. His freinds really did stop him, and Eren really did try to fight them off using the maximum means he was willing too do. There wasn't predetermined timelines, just accurate predications.
But yeah, the time travel was just confusing to everybody, and mislead the ending. If it takes people half a year to understand what the ending meant, then it is a problem with the ending. But I think Isayama had to give an accurate end date to his publishers, and miscalculated. This ended up in a rushed ending, that would otherwise have been powerful. I hope they properly fix it up in the anime.
@@CTRen so protect his friends by killing the world.
he had the power until the plot armoured avengers
@@darrel7493
"Eren didn't do the rumbling because he saw it ahead of time. He saw it ahead of time because he was going to do the rumbling.'
What do you exactly mean by that?
Straight up more invested in the back and forth whilst watching this video than I was reading the ending
Nah. I barely saw Eren in a different light after his video. Between the audience being lied to via making Eren's inner thoughts straight up falsified, to him trying to set up his friends as some avenger's gang, to him being suddenly in love with Mikasa despite no prior reciprocation to her feelings even before his memories came to him, to the plotholes between what Eren really can and cannot do/see with the founders powers, etc.
139 and Eren became a mess.
131, 114, 130, when he hit dina etc there are tons of that in te story
I'm very interested to see, if and how this scene will be changed in the anime. If it is changed, it'll probably be the same ending but articulated and explained better.
That's what I hope for
@Sanzo McG WTF is AoE
@Sanzo McG how can you be so sure?
@@samueloak1600 it stands for "anime original ending"
@@thijsdeboer6968 Ok, now I understand this cope lol
Eren does not kill for the fun of it. He kills as a response to the equally dangerous threat towards himself, his friends, or people. His eye for an eye treatment was generally how he did things all up until his plan changed to the Hero's Path. Which is what made the ending so unsatisfying cause Paradise getting destroyed by outside forces still happens. Even with the Alliance getting their victory. That's the equivalent of building a town on top of a bomb and not telling your kids that the timer has a limit. The world was evil and Eren is a reflection of that evil.
Except that's the point like with the fate of the rumbiling and eren it is destined to be and that was show all through past time skip paradis getting destroyed long after eren reached his final goal of allowing his freinds to live long happy lives. And it shows how eren is pathetic and selfish he would sacrifice all of them in exchange for the fight or for the freedom he wanted he wished to have the fight for freedom while having the actual freedom bored him shown by the school parody manga of snk. Paradis was always eventually going to get destroyed not to mention who even knows who destroyed paradis for all we know it was a paradis cival war and it may have been a world war if not we dont know becuase that's not the point paradis gets destroyed becuase the deterministic way of the world like with not having eren have free will paradis did not have the ability to indefinitely survive
How is killing billions of innocent people eye to eye?
@@ufgbkgchehshid8115 its not destined if he think logically.
he let it happened
destroy the world = no threats..
simple
Honestly I've always believed that saying "Paradis is destroyed" is wrong. We only see a bunch of bombs on shiganshina, the war is totally out of context and it happens a century later at least. To me it was a realistic ending. Eren saving eldia, killing his friends even if he could save them, and then boom: eternal peace was just stupid. Personal opinion
@@_tm.b_3532
The cycle of hatred will always continue. Now, tomorrow, or even 30 million years from now. Someone, somewhere, will get butthurt, and start a war. That's what the final pages were. If people can't understand that then maybe they should avoid any story based on reality.
IMO Eren being a slave to his own nature does make sense, but precisely because his nature is to seek freedom and destroy anything that threatens to take that freedom away. It clicks for me due to the idea that there is no such thing as true freedom. With other people in the world there will always be the opportunity for someone to oppose your desires. In a world with no people, the entire social aspect of life gets stripped from you (I'm sure there is a more in depth explanation about this specific concept out there but it's a lot to get into). This means Eren's goal is an unachievable one, making him a slave to his own desires which can never be satisfied.
Ironically, he finally receives the true freedom, the freedom of peace through his compromise.
@Zavphkuiel Yea you're probably right
i saw a meme once that said "A slave to freedom" which is ironic because those two words oppose each other but yeah i makes sense. There could never be true freedom and i can be simplified by a quote that even a character in Aot said:
"Every human being is a slave to something"
-Kenny Ackerman
-Askeladd
@Zavphkuiel It isn't lol , elaborate how so
@@the9titans237 because eren states himself in the beginning. That is why he wanted to join the survey corps. Attack on titan isnt complex it is just so real that is why it was good. People like invadez or sash go on pseudo intellectual talks to make sense of this trash ending
What Invaderzz didn't mention about School Castes is that while it's true that Eren wanted to create a threat to all of humanity. The moment something actually DID happen, he pretty much instantly regrets it. He gets kidnapped by a cult of Ymir and is naturally scared out of his mind. His friends end up saving him and he regrets wishing for something to happen even more, now that they're dragged into this mess.
He's even alarmedand regretful in the very next panel... What he had is called an 'intrusive thought'. Everyone has had these at one point or another. How you act on them says something about your character. Eren was never showed to find satisfaction in hurting people. Including the traffickers that almost took Mikasa. He just does what he deems necessary.
If eren was so hellbent on using the rumbling no matter what, then why did he try to explore every other possible outcome with the scouts in those four years (like building an alliance with hizuru) and why did he grab hange by the collar in that prison cell scene angrily but desperately asking her if she had any ideas to save Paradis? If felt like eren was genuinely trying to avoid the rumbling even though he knew that was his future. That makes the situation much more tragic because he was a slave to his future, cause he knew this whole time that he would commit monstrous acts but tried to break free and was welcoming any other outcomes (except for ones where eldians' freedom would be taken away, like in zeke's euthanization plan) but in the end succumbed to the rumbling cause there was no other choice in the long run for Paradis.
He’s only a slave to his destiny. It doesn’t matter what he does because his life was set and stone from the the get go.
Right, I don't like how they make him out to be some sociopath who wanted to do the rumbling for his own selfish wants. Like yes, he chose to activate it because it was the one sure outcome, but I don't think it was because he "wanted" to do it for his own innate desire
@@emilymela4683 agree
i feel eren just turned into some fool at the end
@@higashikatajosuke9996 how’s that?
i enjoy your videos so much man. good to see you uploading again
There’s a lot of things you can question in this work of literature, but there isn’t a book or show ever made that you can’t question. In a way, being able to question a show or book by philosophical standpoints reveals the quality of it. I myself, wished it had ended a different way; however that doesn’t change my view on the show as a whole. Despite how it ended, I loved the show because it was there in the first place. It was something I could question, and because I had constant questions, I could enjoy it unconditionally.
when you're so high on copium you start seeing meaning where there's none
Grisha gave Eren the Attack Titan because atp he knew Carla died, didn’t have a fuck about the rumbling happening and knew it would happen anyway. It was basically a way of killing himself while also having his revenge, while playing his destined part.
God I hate this guys mentality of "Oh you just didn't understand it because it is too deep and intricate for you to possibly understand, that's why you hate the ending". Have you ever considered if you need an hour long video to explain why an ending isn't bad and use headcanon and inferences to do so, maybe the ending is just really bad?
a complex philosophical ending does not equal bad. having to think hard about what an ending means does not equal bad. do you want it to be spoon fed to you?
@@bb-mf9yz Except AoT has never tried to be philosophical and even in the end the themes never got any deeper. We are talking about a story here were the protagonist says he himself didn't know why he did any of his actions.
@@theblackswordsman7558 facepalm
@@bb-mf9yz ok
@@theblackswordsman7558huh ?!
Eren memories scene is the biggest misconception we mainly have about eren
People still believe eren betrayed floch which if you watch this video he didn’t 😂
Saintitchief has got to be the most logical and straightforward SnK analyst on this entire site, he’s open minded enough to listen to the other side and at the same time knows how to poke holes in their arguments while presenting his own. Definitely the most underrated SnK UA-camr.
Definitely. I’m so tired of the seeing the same “Ending bad cuz Eren is a crybaby” argument. He gives logical points on the both the positives and the negatives of the ending. The original video is very good is well despite the inconsistencies. Both sides gave fantastic points, which is what I want to see in this god forsaken fandom
But he's far from being biased,He pokes hole in other's argument while his own reasoning is flawed as hell which no one here is pointing out,I'm seriously sick of explaining why the ending we got was only ending that would've given us proper conclusion to the story,yes ending had it's flaws and even isayama admits to it,but this retarded fanbase is ignorant as hell one side is happy coz they got eremika and the other side is pissed coz they didn't get erehisu
@@Sanguinnius All I've seen you do is insult others on how they're always wrong and you're right with no arguments of yourself
@@islandboy9381 there's nothing much to be said if you have watched the entire video,this is the most accurate analysis of eren's character to date,if you can keep headcanons aside
Yep reminds me of that one demon slayer video. Guy says just because he doesn't like said series doesn't mean he is making fun of you for enjoying it. Presented great points on the flaws of Demon Slayer while uploading footage of Doomguy gamwplay.
1:22:00 ur mistake here is that ur forgetting that AoT is a deterministic universe. Just like eren was unable to change the future he saw since the actions taken to lead to that future was decided by his innate nature, the decisions of his friends were also set in stone since those were the decisions they took due to their nature. It is only one unchangeable future and by Marley arc, Eren already knew this full well. He experienced is harshly himself when sasha died. It was useless to get him to not come after him. Eren didn't know he would be stopped before the rumbling so i see why you would see that he should have tried to convince them, but he knew whatever the future was cannot be changed. It would be useless to in a deterministic universe.
It’s absolutely absurd eren loved his friends so much that he allowed them to stop him but in doing so it destroys their families and the civilization they created. The determinate factor still has a cause and effect, like eren making his step mom not eat bertoldt and eating his mom. That is eren going back in time to alter something but it’s “all pre determined”. Meaning eren changed something in this predetermined reality. The writing makes it seem as if it could be one or the other and then it just becomes both. He “has” to do that even tho he only saw a vision of himself doing it. If you see a vision like that you can alter it, sadly eren didn’t, why? The reason why the anime is subpar is how looslely the thematics actually played affect into the story. Like the sins of the father for one
Evidence that Eren didn’t know he’d be stopped before he got the founders power?
Of course Eren can change the future.
The point is that he doesn't want to, that is the deterministic part.
He would do it again if he had the choice, his motivation didn't change.
Therefore: Same (relevant) conditions->same outcome. That is determinism.
But it doesn't explain anything away, it is just a way of saying that his motivation would always stay strong.
And it is not entirely clear what the motivation was; Why wanted to rumble, because many different answers are given, the main one being that he wants his friends to be the heroes to unite the world in a fight against him.
That is the clearest answer he gave a a controversial one at that. ("Oh no, not the code geas ending")
@@richardhauer8391 u right on first part but the reason is his desperate desire for his childish dream of freedom. It’s in his nature. He wanted to erase the outside world so he could make a blank slate for him and armin to explore like they always wanted to in their childhood book
@@asakimx9226 Well that is pretty much the invaderzz argument.
But I am not convinced that "he is a violent person" alone is an explanation for anything, since he never attacked anyone for no reason.
Think about his talk with hange when he was imprisoned after the liberio attack:
He said: "Fight, Fight!" To himself. And when asked by hange what he meant, he got angry and demanded an answer:
What alternative can she offer? She didn't have an answer.
I would rather interpret the "violent nature" idea as an explanation why he made such an extreme decision when they are in a difficult situation, where for example Armin would not do that.
So, violent or not, he mainly didn't want to sacrifice historia. It is plausible that he didn't see an other option.
When he talked to Reiner, he said they are the same, but Reiner didn't just act for himself either.
You could interpret his actions as him not being able to overcome his strong loyalty to Marly.
He would have to betray everything he previosely stood for. And in that sense he is just like Eren:
Were they supposed to betray their country and risk their homelands destruction?
Because for Reiner Marly truely needed the founding titan and for Eren Eldia needed the founding titan as defense.
"becoming a hero" is not purely self serving, it meant to prevent their respective friend's death and their country's destruction.
He directly gave the answer that he wanted his friends to be the heroes to unite the world in a fight against him. The purpose here is clearly protecting Eldia and his friends, he would never be seen as hero or have any other advantage for himself.
Are you really convinced that it is all just an excuse that he didn't believe in?
1:54:17 I think eren didn't say right away that the main reason he did the rumbling to armin was because he was ashamed to tell him that the main reason was because he wanted to. But i also agree that isayama could have done a better job explaining it.
he did say "I don't want mikasa to see another man" nothing could be worse than that. Dont see how he is unable to do so.
@@kiattim2100 idk if ur just joking around but him telling armin he doesn’t wanna see the girl he loves with another man is not in ANY WAY equal to him telling armin he wanted to destroy the world 😭 so to answer ur question THERE IS something worse than being sad abt ur girl being another man… which is wanting to destroy the world… and eren knew that, that’s why he didn’t wanna tell armin about it. sorry if u were just joking around tho
@@lujanvargas1277 He wanted to destroy the world isn't the only thing. Yes he wanted to destroy the world, but it was the only way for him to protect paradise from outside forces while NOT sacrificing Historia.
@@lujanvargas1277 imagine getting cucked and by none other than the normie horse dude, id destroy the world too
Its like super copium, they convinced themselves that the ending is good since they dont want to admit that they waste 10 years of their life😂😂
I feel you here however it's not a waste as the ride was a good one. However when the ending is just bad it leaves a bad taste. It's like a rollercoaster, you have a wild and good ride but at the end you might feel sick because the last corner was just too bad for you. That's what a bad ending of a good story is like.
Did you even watch the video? The reason why the ending was like that is in the damn video. The ending got a lot of hate due to the misconceptions people had. This video debunks some of those misconceptions
@@niallv14 And his response to the video showed his "debunking" is inconsistent and interpreting it in a way that fits his narrative, did you watch that?
I didn’t. I enjoyed the story since day 1. Sure it had its issues, but I’ll always love even if everyone else feels any different
@@daryeusford9696 nah you know too that the ending makes no sense
In the final volume of the book, the last “school” chapter came out and Eren stated that it should be left open for interpretation for the audience after watching the ending of AOT, i feel like that’s what isayama wants
If I can tell, that's totally retarded. SNK is not Evangelion.
@@titan-framboise3126 but it’s still a work of fiction. I’ve seen no other interpretation of Eren like this one, and even then I’ve seen plenty of different interpretations of Eren. If that’s what he wanted, then it’s what he wanted
@@CTRen that’s just an excuse because he didn’t even know how he should conclude aot. + plus aot’s plot and universe structure isn’t suite for an open ending, aot should have had a precise ending explaining at least the important things but he failed to do so
@@neoc.e4078 I think AOT’s plot is definitely something that you can leave with an open ending, or have an open story with in terms of character writing. Like i said there’s many interpretations and views on how Eren as a character is and none of them are necessarily wrong
@@CTRen He didn't leave it open ended because paradise got bombed.
When people use the argument that eren was a slave to his ambition therefore he was never free it’s flawed.
There’s a difference between being enslaved and being a slave. Eren was a slave to something he picked for himself, he allowed his own innate ambition to consume him and drive his behaviour. Nobody picked that path for him which is why he was such a great character. These attributes were thrown in the garbage by the notions that
1. He didn’t know why he did anything and his brain turned to mush cuz of founder
2. Ymir controlled everything to play out the way it did
This is why the manga ending is absolutely shit standalone, however if there is an anime only ending it can redeem everything. People trying to defend the manga ending standalone make no sense but if things play out like how tryhard has been theorizing it’ll make aot the greatest story in all of fiction
The Ymir twist to me is what makes everything in this story collapse in on itself. If it was just Eren turning out to be a slave to an ideal to the point of him not having control over his actions or becoming detached then something interesting could have possibly come out of that. But the fact that it turns out Ymir was omniscient of everything in past, present and future to control someone yet still was somehow a slave for this weird ass ''freed from my own love torment'' bullshit makes:
1- Ymir the most weak omniscient being if she needs to control someone in 2000 years to do all of this and the plan on its own sounds like circular logic
2- Takes away any agency in the actions done through this entire plot
allowing his own innate ambition was the important part people forget.
@@islandboy9381 You are speaking truth my friend. There is no point even talking about freedom, nature and all of these things if being like ymir exists. She can control every single person at any given point in time. Literally makes all the characters and their individual views on certain things pointless as she can change that in one second. For example eren's dream in chapter 1 or episode 1 of the anime. It was ymir who casted this dream upon eren so he can move with accordane to her plan. Other example is how she saved zeke back when he was dying from explosion.
Even if Eren's character can be somewhat reasoned with, it doesn't make the ending any less shit. Literally every character got ruined by the ending. Eren is just the easiest to pick on but no one had a good ending in the manga. It's still garbage, whether we can all come to an agreement with Eren's actions or not.
@@islandboy9381 not only does ymir being in control of everything make the whole story unsatisfying, you mean to tell me that over the span of 2000 years and billions of eldians, she never saw a ‘love story’ like eren and mikasa’s play out before? Lol that’s jokes
Its very clear that you don't understand what a deterministic universe is.
one where people turn into birds?
Deterministic worlds demand that characters act according to their needs, wishes and traits, everything is set in stone because people are predictable. Fate is formed by the agglomeration of peoples will, not by people following a script.
33:30 I'm happy to see that you brought up some a basic philosophical concept that he failed to consider in his argument. Making me feel less insane chief ❤️
if i tell you that you're a slave to your craft does that make you literally a slave like in the old days??? NO
when he said that eren was a slave to his own desire of freedom means that he couldn't let go of that desire no matter what
Saintichief didn't understand that, i don't even know why, come on, the language is very clear, i understood that, and english is not even my first language
@@waltergomes6981 They didn't understand because either 1. They're too stupid, or 2. They're too attached to their "ending trash hurr hurr" mentality
@@Gankstomper i think it is both, no one is trying to say that the ending is perfect but they just keep ignoring stuffs that are very clear in the manga so that they keep lying to themselves that it was the worse ending of all time
Why does he sound like that Jordan Peterson AI voice lmaooo
@@waltergomes6981 Saintichief clearly said he doesn't think its the same, that was his point.
He complains that "slave to his own desire" doesn't have enough importance.
Eren did change his plans quite significantly if he decided not to kill everyone outside later on.
Eren: If someone is willing to take my freedom, I will take theirs. I have always been this way
Except if this people are my friends, you can kill my if you want, fellas lel
He didn't really let his friends kill him. He sincerely tried to fight them off. He probably wasn't fighting his hardest as he didn't want to kill them, but he did his best to drive them away. He just happened to have knowledge ahead of time he would lose.
@@darrel7493 You're saying that he didn't lose on purpose and yet he is controlling the founding titan's powers. Dude those 2 things can't be reconciled with each other.
@@hakminblakmin7263 The current opening song clarifies a lot. It indicates that Eren saw a high probability that he would die beyond the wall, and it scared him, but he pushes ahead anyway. And the wording also implies that dieing wasn't part of his plan.
Eren did not lose on purpose, but found himself trapped. And he was fighting under 2 constraints. 1 he refused to use his power to actually take power away from anyone or influence their minds. This was against Eren's principles. And 2, he didn't actually want to kill his freinds, but just chase them away. So he was pulling his punches, but he tried his best to win under those 2 constraints.
And he probably would have succeeded if Zeke had not intervened. And Zeke would not have done that if Grisha had not told Zeke to stop Eren. And Zeke would never have been on Grisha's side, if Eren Kruger hadn't told Grisha to find love inside of the walls. So echos of the past were part of what led to Eren's defeat.
1:48:16 we have seen his goals not only in ch 139 but also in ch 131. 1. pursue his own freedom 2. long lives for his friends. THEN after getting power of the founder. He had NEW goals. He is expaining here in the panel his 3rd and 4th goal. Later he explains that he wanted to do so. For us, it is enough to understand that this was in his nature. No further explanation needed. The guy also said that eren was shamed of his true desire
There are a lot of things about the ending that I don't like, for example, how the titan curse ended with Mikasa killing Eren, how Zeke and Armin freed themselves from Ymir during the final battle, the logic that Ymir needed someone to kill their lover for her to be free (???!)... Etc. But when it comes to Eren's character, I think the video you are reacting to does an amazing job explaining him and his motives behind the rumbling.
@Ahmed Mohamed, I can give an answer for Ymir and Mikasa.
I think Ymir wanting some push for herself to let go of her love toward Fritz. She wanted to let it go but unable to. Fritz want the power of Titan to remain and his descendant to use it and Ymir, as she loves Fritz, she can't force herself to abandon that wish yet she wanted to.
Only after she saw Mikasa, while rejecting Eren wish, still continue to love him until the end of her life. This is what finally convinced herself to reject Fritz wish yet still held to her love towards him.
@@neardarkroad1347 but why would ymir love fritz?
@@shezyam460 she was mentally broken as a slave yet still wish for affection such as love from others. Once Fritz impregnate her, she mistakenly thought he loved her, so she loved him back. After having nothing in her life, someone finally gives affection to her.
Only at the end of her physical life, she realize Fritz never loved her. Due to mental anguish from this, she stunned her mental maturity to a slave as that is all she ever knew.
Tldr: As a slave, have nothing, threaten as less than human than others, mentally broken.
Suddenly, someone gives affection to her thus she fall in loves with him as twisted as that sound.
@@neardarkroad1347 well basically you're saying that she realized fritz never loved her and that she was used all this time but she still lived him? That doesn't sound very good.
Plus, why eren? I can get the parallel between Mikasa and ymir, but eren and the king are completely different.
@@shezyam460 It is twisted, I know. I'm not explaining why it is good, I'm explaining how and why it happen.
Don't forget, despite Ymir love for Fritz, seeing Mikasa doing the right thing (killing Eren) while still retained her loves toward him, finally push Ymir to undo the titan curse (the right thing to do) while still retaining her love for Fritz.
I don't get your question about Eren and Fritz, can you elaborate it more?
The vid says in an earlier part that the future is already determined because eren wants these things to happen, that it’s only possible because eren wants to do what the happened in the future but then it’s contradicted by the fact that eren would’ve never wanted to stop the rumbling but did so anyway. He also never mentions the time eren saw the future again it’s just not true what he’s saying.
Thank you 🙏
It’s headcanon
regardless of any defense or argument
the fact that he (eren) contradicts himself 3 times in 139 alone
makes the ending garbage
and that is something no amount of yeagerberg or symbols or what ever can change
so even in some parallel universe of mental gymnastics - where it makes sense, it is still bad writing...
15:19 😬😬 this was the point where I knew the rest of the video was probably gonna delve into strict interpretations. Like 131 makes it very clear that he was struggling with the very thought of killing so many innocent families and children. It was clear that he felt like he HAD to in order to protect his friends AND paradis's future, not for some twisted fantasy. It was shown through his kid self that he was trying to regress into such a state but through the dialogue before we knew that he was probably just lying to himself.
The video doesn't argue that Eren feels no remorse about it. He feels awful about what he has to do, both sides of the argument agree on this
139 confirms this interpretation tho... When asked by armin why he wanted to “leave the world a blank slate” he states it was because he WANTED to and he HAD to. Eren hated the world for what it had done to him, so he wanted to wipe it all away. He even talks about the same thing in 131. The knowledge that humanity lived beyond the walls broke him, so HE WISHED to wipe it all away because he believed they could get in the way of the “Freedom” he was chasing.
From the first arc Isayama made it very clear that Eren is not a good person. After all, he murdered 2 people and showed no remorse because he viewed them as “animals” for what they did to Mikasa. Like I said: Eren is not a good person.
Although you’re right about Eren regressing back into his child-self during the rumbling to cope, that just proves his core desires. His perception of personal freedom IS twisted. The thought of murdering all of his enemies is part of his version of freedom. Erens regression into a child during the rumbling is the peak of that twisted fantasy/delusion.
Don’t act like he said Eren’s main motivation was to destroy the word for his own selfish reasons tho. Erens primary motivation was always to give his friends the ability to live long happy lives. Erens need to save his friends, and his hatred for the cruel world that he lived in was what pushed him forward to commit to the rumbling. Erens motives are not one dimensional.
I know I made it seem like Eren was a complete and utter monster in this but that’s just because I’m trying to get my point across. Even though Eren believes that all lives have inherent value, even though Eren had a mental breakdown over the thought of taking the freedom away from innocent people, that doesn’t disprove that he still has a twisted perception of “Freedom.” No ones trying to argue he didn’t feel EXTREMELY bad about it. His delusion just overcame his guilt.
@@corvo1733 “leave the world a blank slate” he states it was because he WANTED to and he HAD to. yes but this pretty much contradicts 131 , he never seem to want to kill so many people if he had another choices , in which eldians dont have to die ... if he wanted to do all this why did he cry for what he is going to do ... if you want to do something you dont cry , it dosnt matter how cruel is cause you know you want it , you only cry if your are let with no other choice and are forced to choose between more garbage options ... that you wouldnt want to choose them if you could .. i just think he was retconed , i belive he is a character who is open to violence he seems like this but only in certain situations ... i dont think he would choose violence just to choose it ... well it doesnt matter what i think , in 139 he clearlly said he would choose it ...
@@ssppooppcristi6734 Just like I said: He says the same thing in 131 too. Once he learned that humans lived beyond the walls he WISHED to wipe it all away. I’m literally quoting it. This is blatant proof that 139 does not contradict 131.
Ofc, Eren still felt the NEED to do what he did to save his people, but he also WANTED to wipe it all away. He cried because he was disgusted at himself for having those thoughts. Eren is a firm believer that everyone deserves to be free, and that everyone has inherent value. That is why he breaks down in front of ramzi. Eren cried because he had to take the freedom away from “innocent” people, but he still did it anyways because he valued his and his people’s “freedom” over everyone else’s.
I’ll try to explain why Eren WISHED to destroy the world and how that relates to his early ideology. At the beginning of the series a major theme we see within Eren is him dehumanizing those that threaten him and his loved ones. For example: After killing Mikasa’s kidnappers, he says they DESERVED it because they were animals. He said it was NATURAL for them to die. This proves that Eren is unhinged and open to violence. He killed the kidnappers to save Mikasa, but also because he thought they “deserved it.” This foils into his thoughts during his talk with ramsy, where we see his two ideologies clashing with each other. One part of him WANTS to rid the world of the “animals” that rob him of his freedom, and the other part of him hates himself for wanting to do that. Like I’ve been saying: Eren is not a simple, one dimensional character with one set of goals/motives/ideologies.
People aren’t one dimensional like that either. You can still WANT to do something but be disgusted at yourself for having those thoughts. That isn’t completely illogical...
131 makes very clear that he was going to do the Rumbling "to save Eldians.....NO IT WAS NOT JUST THAT" he literally said it god damn, just read the fucking chapter
57:00 I mean you could argue that he only made that plan when he was in the paths and finally figured out how the founder's powers worked if you really wanted to, but it doesn't make it much better
In the comment section he further elaborates why eren didn't know that he will be stoped until he started the rumbling. Whether he learned in chap 90 or in chap 121 isn't 100% set in stone since in both cases there are incoherences that comes with it. However Eren learning it in chap 121 makes much more sense since this scenario raises far less incoherences than if he learned it in chap 90.
His comment is very long and ellaborated I recommend reading it
Except eren reassured himself in chapter 131, which chronologically came afterwards.
Also, he was painfully clear to armin in chapter 139, that instead of the lies mixed with truths that sounded feasible by then, the table scene was recognized by him as a meré antagonizing moment… 100% lies and inflammatory rhetoric, which further proves that apparently by then he was already aware he needed to loose and had came with the code geass ripp off nonsense.
Nothing of it make sense with his characterization, nor with the panels, nor pre, nor during chapter 100 onwards.
The retcon is blatant for anyone thats actually compromised to not ignore it.
Do you have proof from the manga of this being true or is that just headcanon he made up to cover his inconsistencies
@@SuperXrayDoc no it isn't 100% true in the manga. As I said in both cases there incoherences but the Chap90 version raises much more problems than the Chap121 one.
But you can read the commemt for yourself you know
his comment was bullshit. first of all the attack titan does not "send" memories of itself to past users otherwise grisha would have had to send him saying to save mikasa and armin back to kruger which is fucking pointless and stupid. and second of all the only memories grisha saw far the attack titan future memories was how the power of the founding titan only works by touching a titan with royal blood and that he would kill the royal family. he only learned about the rumbling after eren showed with the power of the founding titan (not the attack titan) which we literally know he can do the same way he did with armin in 139 which happened even before they fought their final battle or with mikasa and the alternative universe in 138. its literally only the founding titan that allow you to consciously send back memories while the attack titan only lets you passively view memories who you might not even be sure who they're from like in krugers case.
another dent in his dumb theory that eren didn't know what would happen is the fact that grisha himself literally said that eren didn't show him everything when he showed him the rumbling implying that eren knew more but didn't show grisha. what more did he know? that he would literally be stopped by mikasa which is literally what he already said he knew would happen when he touched historia's hand in 139. 139 and 121 literally already debunks the theory that he didn't everything in chapter 90 when he clearly fucking did.
@@Tupadre97 I agree for the most part, but the Attack Titans ability is to send future memories to past holders. Obviously it's inconsistent of what, how much, or how can they send them.
Around the 1:22:15 mark you say about how if he didn’t want his friends to stop him then he would’ve tried to talk to them and tried to convince them at least one time. However, I think he already knew it was pointless and that none of them would ever agree to genocide no matter how much you convince them, so he just didn’t bother trying.
In the end of the day it doesn't matter.
I mean Eren's image as a character is already ruined for majority of manga readers and it'll only be followed by anime only's after.
Idk, with the anime there's a lot more people who like or at least understand Gabi's character compared to before the final season came out. But we'll see how it's all handled, I would just imagine the anime will explain things better
1:45:45 there is a missunderstanding. It is the power of the attack titan that memories will be send back to the previous attack titan. We can also see this with eren kruger. He had memories of grisha, he gave him the advice to make a family and love someone. Bc he tried to follow the path. He also said the line with: "if you want to save mikasa and armin". So sending back memories wasnt something future eren did on purpose
Couldn't agree more, what you said it's what i thought as well.
Fun fact by giving Eren acess to see future and being in deterministic universe is the only way to achive Eren changing plan midway.
Otherwise there would come time where he would have to choose between his friends and his "freedom" as he woudn't know they could sucseed in stopping him.
So he couldn't make the make them look like hearoes plan and could kill them and achieve his goul or die and leave them to their own devices, hopping they we find a way to survive.
I think giving character ultimate power and ability to see future in deterministic universe is and incredibly hard thing to do and you need a really good premise for it to work.
Which I think last ark of the series didn't have, if anything it's saying following axioms are true:
1. Eren is this kind of person, there are thinks he want and things he doesn't want to do
2. He has power of founding titan, meaning anything he wants to do can be accomplised (Nobody can oppese him, he can restrict any eldian)
3. He can see future, which is deterministic, but also influenced by the fact that he can see the future
So the future he sees, it's practicly the best future he can accomplish according to axiom 1 and 2, and as axiom 2 says he can do pretty much anything and cannot be oppesed even by other eldians, there is only one reson he would not accomplish his goal, that being he has strong moral value and won't cross them to achieve his goal, which is nonsence according to what we know, and if he decided that he would once again act according to them there needs to be mini-ark about that, not deux ex fck you i said so. The second is the goal has changed or changed priority or was misunderstood from begining, if the goal is changed or changed priority there is point in the future where it happens and he can see that and we should see that. If it was misunderstood from begining there should be some kind of bread crums that indicate for that to be the case.
The feedback, in this case the agency of the one seeing the future, is the only limiting factor, so more powerfull the one seeing future is, the more freedom in outcome you have.
And if you give this ability to powerfull person, whose philosophy is the end justify the means, he becomes a plot device. This doesn't seem all that bad, as it demonstraits the paradox, at least in a way that is intuitive, but bcs the decisions, are made to suit the outcome it diminishes the weight of those decisions and outright skips a lot of them, as he can only see the one and only path where all the decisions have been already made.
This pretty condensed, but I hope it makes at least sence. I didn't wanna suggest a better way to write ending using these axioms, but to show the shortcomings of this type of storytelling.
The second the guy trying to defend this shit ending said "eren is a antsgonist" that's how I knew he had a shit take.
By definition and breaking things down, eren is not an antahonist
bruh go to school and learn english you kidlet
I thought we already agreed these ppl are nitpicking panels and ignoring what the story was telling us it was leading into
The reason Eren didnt try to convince them to not kill him was because he knew it wouldnt work because he saw that they would kill him. The future cant be changed so there was no point in doing so. And comparing that to him saving Ramsy doesnt make sense. Him saving Ramsy was Eren being Eren, being kind to the people he would later kill, it wasnt anything personal. Just like Reiner. But him asking his friends not to kill him doesnt do any of that. Again, they would kill him anyways, because that is what the future held.
Im pretty sure he didnt know they’d kill him
@@seb7269 he didn’t know they’d kill him until he got access to the founder. By the time the rumbling began, he knew.
I think a lot of people aren’t understanding that the future is fixed. Thank you for mentioning this. Like this is the problem with future plots…in a fixed future plot, the future will happen exactly as it’s gonna happen cuz there’s only one timeline and it bugs me when everyone keeps saying why didn’t he try to change the future, etc. anyway I don’t wanna ramble but yeah this comment
That future is fixed is a paradox because the future could only happen by Eren's interference with the past.
@@islandboy9381 Newcomb's paradox
It's a high quality video but he honestly just tried to turn aot into a story it wasn't meant to be before 139. I mean the scenes he looked at as evidence could also be fairly interpreted differently and in the way a lot of yeagarist and more critical alliance fans had thought. This whole video is honestly more like a theory video if anything sadly and really would be just as credible as some theories before 139 but just like other theories before 139 even it gets retconed by the chapter through simply dialogue AND actions.
Edit: actions made by eren
Edit: this argument can be used against theories before the ending but there was more and better evidence for these claims. This theory does a ton of stretching.
Your own argument could be used against you,coz the points u guys bring out can be deemed as nothing but theory coz the story of aot is open to interpretations
Going by that logic, if the scenes can be interpreted differently, then who’s to say anything about “what the story was meant to be” is right?
@@CTRen I was going for closure for those that loved the previous themes of freedom, compadablism, and the sins of the father
@@CTRen they were themes heavily implied and even reinforced in the path chapters. But your right the logic is technically flawed.
You're wrong its an analysis on eren not a theory u fking idiot 🙄
I'm extremely impressed by Invaderzz video but I'm just wondering how did he know that Eren sent the memories back and that Eren only saw the future through Grisha, and also that Eren only saw part of the future and then saw the rest of it once he came in contact with the founder??? Was that clearly stated in the text I don't remember that. Even if invaderzz explanation was perfect I would still fault the writing for failing to convey it in an understandable manner. I understand that Eren had multiple motivations (caring for his friends, wanting freedom for himself, freedom for his people, violent nature) but I don't think Isayama succeeded at juggling them all in a coherent way. I also think the claim that Eren is really a sociopath who just used his environment as an excuse to destroy the world makes him WAY LESS COMPELLING then someone who simply had a powerful urge to seek freedom and was determined to get it no matter the cost or who had to get out of his way. The moral conundrum of Eren's right to freedom vs. the lives of the rest of the world is way more interesting. Many people in our world are oppressed and the reality is freedom is something that you alhave to fight for. People will fight and die to keep others in chains. If someone commits the violence of keeping you unfree, don't you have a right to fight back? Isayama complicated this question in the story by introducing questns such as "what if fighting for freedom required you to take innocent lives of ppl who didn't chose to oppress you. what if the people fighting you were just brainwashed versions of your own people? what if total freedom for your people could only come with the destruction of everyone else? What if other options could guarantee your safety and comfort at the cost of genocide (in the form of Euthanasia)" but these questions are all cheapened if are main character would actually be bored with freedom and really just uses it to fight people. Basically even of invaderzz is 100% right and Isayama planned this ending it was still a poor direction for the story to take.
"I also think the claim that Eren is really a sociopath who just used his environment as an excuse to destroy the world makes him WAY LESS COMPELLING then someone who simply had a powerful urge to seek freedom and was determined to get it no matter the cost or who had to get out of his way."
No one will be able to convince me that Eren's actions are those of a person who just wanted an excuse to destroy the world. Eren saw the future of the rumbling when he kissed Historia's hand, which is why he acts super depressed after that moment. Isayama cleverly avoided showing us what Eren saw, leaving us to decipher his motivations through his actions. Despite seeing the future Eren exhausted every option to avoid destroying the world.
Chapter 131 is absolutely incredible because we're finally shown Eren's perspective. Eren isn't bloodthirsty, gloating, or confused - he's devastated, cries, and wishes it didn't have to be this way. Eren is NOT evil for the sake of being evil, and the fact that some people believe this is a testament to their lack of reading comprehension.
@@SuperMatthew345 eren didn't need any excuse to destroy the world, his freedom was taken away from him, in chapter 121 he said "if anyone tries to take my freedom away i won't hesitate to take theirs", and of course, eren wasn't confused, he knew what he was doing was wrong, he was depressed and even cried, but in the end he did the rumbling because it is what he wanted, eren said "ever since i was born i have always been me" it was his nature and people refuse to believe it.
Attack on titan is very complex, isayama gave answers to majority of the things but also left something to the audince to discover for themselves, and those things can be found in the story itself, but people just want everything to be simple, attack on titan was never simple
They always say ''if you just understood what themes Isayama was going for with this ending you would totally think it was good, maybe he shouldn't have told it in this vague and subtle way'' but you highlighted exactly that even if those supposed themes were made clear as possible in the plot, it would be bad.
@@islandboy9381 why would it be bad though? Because it is different?
I’m not saying that the ending is perfect, it is far from that, but people make it seem worse just because they don’t understand the things that are already in the plot
@@SuperMatthew345 This is the problem. Many fans took the story in their own direction.
I think leaving the ending up to interpretations is the worst mistake isayama ever did
It's not isayama's fault,it's the dumbass fandom,both sides are mentally retarded,one side is happy coz they got eremika and the other side is sad coz they didn't get erehisu
why life is mostly about interpretation xD
The average person is just too stupid for this to ever really be a good idea. All these dipshits saying the ending is trash just need everything spelled out for them.
@@Sanguinnius No, the problem is SNK is not fucking Evangelion. He shouldn't have let the ending open to interpretation, that doesn't make sense.
For me it was the best choice and the only way how aot get ended tbh
it's funny how they can't just balance the scales with the argument. It goes from not only is the ending good, Eren is the greatest character in the history of mankind lmao
yeah like who is gonna take them seriously with those grandiose claims
@@minorka2 because it is true
Their arguments always start with " you didn't understand his character".
@@rachichi4092 because that’s the core misconception with complex characters
it is funny how some people just declare the ending is bad without putting in any effort to understand it...
1:39:28
there
he just described a better ending.
I just want to explain why doesn't matter the reason why Grisha gave the powers to eren, even after asking zeke to stop eren, its really simple and is exactly as the video said "it doesn't even matter". The future that Grisha saw, is the future where grisha saw the future (I hope is not confusing), it was not like this before grisha saw it, and then it changed, it was always this. What grisha saw is taking account that grisha saw it. So, the reason could be whatever, maybe he thought to give it to someone else but then changed idea when shiganshina was attacked, his house destroyed, his wide killed and the life that he fought for gone, or maybe when he was thinking clearly he thought "I'll not give the titan to eren" but in the rage of everything that I just wrote that happened to him, he did it. It really doesn't matter, cause it happened. The video was on point
And why eren sent memories to grisha if everything would have happened anyways? Bro, wtf, we know that's the case because it was acknowledged by us, he doesn't know it😂, plus, that's what he wants, so he'll make sure that it will happen. I don't know what's wrong in this
You convinced me with breaking bad lol
It matters.
This video is arguing that the rumbling only occurred because 'Eren wanted it to occur'. Because Eren is a violent psychopath who cannot make himself make a decision that contradicts his desire for freedom (ergo a slave to freedom), which he defines as a world empty of humans outside of Paradis.
So the entire weight of the Rumbling is on Eren alone, wiping away any outside factors as irrelevant. OP argues that even in a time of peace, Eren would simply get bored and do this anyway if he was given the means.
Eren is a born psychopath who chose the most violent outcome because he desires it. No other reason.
Right? Right.
So then, knowing all of this, why did Grisha follow along with Eren. What kind of character does that make Grisha who went along with this mindless violence ??? The options are either:
A: plot device, lel. Deus ex, who gives af.
B: Eren is Lelouch and he can make people do things against their own will, but only if they're Grisha.
C: Grisha knew what Eren knew and on very limited time could not think of any other or better way.
Both Grisha and Eren have tried negotiating. They exhausted any option they could think of. Eren practically begged Hange for a better answer or a plan at all. *There was no correct answer.*
Eren was never the greedy and cowardly character OP described. This is the same character that begged to be eaten if that was indeed what it took to achieve peace.
Peace just simply wasn't an option *because Marley and the rest of the world decided it*. Eren simply responded. Grisha, despite himself, doesn't have an argument to make or a solution to give. The walls are down, his lifetime as a shifter is nearing at an end and just like that he was forced to make a decision quickly before his time ran out and Paradis is robbed of their only chance at fighting back against a world that would use their living corpses to fight their wars with no end in sight.
The notion that Eren saw everything that he saw, lived through all these absolutely traumatising, devestating events, only to not consider any of them at all in favor of 'well idk.. just cause.. went with the flow..' is insulting and stupid. Defending this logic is betraying any and all character development.
Eren trusted Levis squad and was rewarded with their corpses- unimportant, he just wanted to see lava and got pesky, dirty little humans instead. Eren is forced to endure speech after speech how the Eldians deserve to be pulled apart by teeth, forced to roam the earth indefinitely and eat innocents and their own loved ones, starved in one place as their recources depletes with time- never got to see the sahara dessert :,((( All his comrads who died fighting with terror in their hearts for a chance of a glimmer of hope only for Paradis and their loved ones in it to be helplessly trampled into the soil or mutated into the very same grotesque monsters that chewed them to death- Eren would get bored D,,,,:
Be so freaking serious...
@dexterclays2048 sorry for the essay. 🫠
Your point at the end with Breaking Bad was conditionally met. When Armin said “did you really do this for our sake” Eren never confirmed it. He leaves. According to Invaderzz, this could be interpreted as a parallel to Reiner. Whether or not that’s true would be up for debate.
What Eren did confirm at the end is that he wanted to do it. And as much as I can understand your position that Eren could’ve phrased that better, I think that saying he wanted to do it was enough. Maybe it’s implied he did like it. Or some inherent nature. Or nurture. I don’t know. And I’m satisfied with not knowing why he wanted it. But indeed that’s my personal opinion.
it is not met, because eren was not given another valid option that would not require the rumbling.
see my jaegerburg theory video for more
well when it comes down to it, I don't think Invaderz thinks Eren is truly selfish, especially since alot of comments on his vid take away that Eren isn't the villain. But something he missed about the ending, as well as foreshadowing for it, was that this ending was inspired by The Mist, a movie about a main character who starts out one way, contradicts it, but then returns to his original self at the end. Eren said alot of contradictory stuff, including when he realized it and he said he wanted to continue the rumbling but he didn't know why he felt that way, even when he said he made it clear he didn't want to do it and when he did, he had better motives in mind. But then Armin punched him, and in a moment that Isayama described as "Eren is back", Eren breaks down in sorrow about everything, and from there, we see Eren get the heroic sendoff and treatment from Armin and the rest of the alliance.
The story made it pretty clear that Eren isn't selfish, and those who use Invaderz vid to prove that he is are really just trying to cope with the ending and how it humanized Eren.
47:25 I honestly didn’t even need a reason outside “Erens a wild warmongerer” and then he cried and said I don’t know
I really liked Invaderzz video & I gotta say - a lot of people say that he, and others who enjoyed the ending, are having to do all this insane analysis or "mental gymnastics" to make it make sense, but to me that's what ANR theory (which you like a lot) had to do. I've watched AOT with like 6 different people and chatted with dozens who watched as regular fans, and when I insinuate anything that the ANR theory insinuates, they are baffled and do not understand how that theory even exists. I have to deeply explain it. It takes SO much analysis and bending the story to accommodate the theory. Its an interesting theory and fun to follow when you dig into it, but it's just always confused me why people are so willing to dive into the absolute THICK of the ANR theory, but refused to do any analysis on the ending we actually got and Isayama wrote. And then when people do and find really cool aspects of the canon story, they get trashed for "having to explain so much" which makes it "bad" yet that's....literally what the ANR theory has to do. But I digress.
I know, for some people Historia mentioning a baby means she’s flirting with Eren. But as soon as the story doesn’t follow their narrative they lose this ability.
Hypocricy at its finest, when you do it, you don't think it is a problem but when someone else does it, you'll call them out for it.
Anr theory supporters in a nutshell.
@@lalatui4539 for sure. The AnR lovers have been one of the most hateful & hypocritical subsets of any anime fandom I’ve ever been in. :/ I just cannot imagine spending THIS much time on something I hate. You hated the ending? Great? Move on. But they’ve made it their whole personality + insult the intelligence level / reading comprehension of anyone who disagrees or found beauty in the ending we got. It’s a real bummer, but it’s human nature to be antagonistic I guess 😂 I just wish they put even 10% of the energy they put into trashing AOT, into understanding the canon themes presented. But they are the ones who “truly understood AOT” - I forgot 🙄
@@euph1na Historia mentioning a baby to Eren = love & yet every single interaction she had with Ymir - sobbing and begging her not to leave her alone, crying to her love letter - that was all platonic. 🙄 AnR Historia was reduced to an Eren simp who is more concerned w her genocider returning to her than she is with the fact that he’s going to murder all their best friends to do so. 😂
@@sadieb9424 Insulting others' intelligence and taste is what i find irritating about them, we are talking about a Japanese comic here, not final exam paper or final year project, guys really be hurling insults at others for not having the same opinion as them about a Japanese story smh.
When others don't think their fan theory makes sense or connect to the canon story, it is because they are not smart enough but when someone like insider(I know i butchered his name) made an intense analysis about Eren's character and made many interesting points, it's because he is playing "mental games" ☠.
😕the biggest problem is that the writer is supposed to show me all this and make me accept it or understand it. But to make most readers do not understand until they watch dozens of videos for long hours until they understand the character and his decisions here, you failed as a writer
ABSOLUTE FACT.
the author often thrusts the themes into your face, the ramzi confession was the biggest hint.
Actually I don't care about it untill I like the story and after this video, I absolutely love ending 🔥
@@ohshit635 ramzi?
The author thinks that you can do these simple things by yourself by paying attention to the details but when you'll pay attention to these details, you just watch it for action.
The way he explains the future memories makes me believe that he wants them to align the way they do to make the ending make sense
Like how he didn’t lie to floch and historia byt lie to everyone post Marley
Soon each viewer will understand the truth as the story progress and each viewer will understand the truth that gradually appears as the story progress in the movie in 2023
(Our battle is only getting started)
This quote was from the AnR video?
React to „the brilliance of eren yaeger“ from cactuzzShash, mental gymnastics at its finest
Lmaooo he always trying to make this ending a masterpiece on twitter
What does mental gymnastics even mean?
@@omarb7401?
@@omarb7401 basically in denial
@@omarb7401 making up shit on your own
1:03:12
C'mon, it's kinda obvious, Eren is not aware in what kind of a universe he lives in, only we, the observers are able to think of something like that.
so he sent the memories back.. by accident?
@@saintitchief Of course not, he sent them for the exact reason shown in the manga, so that the past Eren would do the actions that he did. You say though that because Eren lives in deterministic universe there's no need for that, but how does Eren know that, he's not a philosopher in any way.
@@spavlov19 no not because the universe is deterministic but because he saw the future and new what would happen already
So He's saying that Eren is a Psychopath
yes he is
@@hallo4651 No he not goofy
I agree with invaderzz analysis of eren but i think the ending would have been 10x better if eren just simply didn't know that he would lose. The dina fritz thing is also just pointless bs.
Ngl that Dina twist was unnecessary
I get that since the AOT timeline is “deterministic” Carla was always meant to die, but just the fact that it was Eren that got her killed still hurts me personally, even if it was implied that he wasn’t coherent when he did it
This is the same old argument "Eren was a prospective landscaper" except in the form of a 1.5 hr long video.
Bruh I can tell you didn't even watched the video
Omni-Copium on display in that video…
14:20 I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say, for Eren it didn't matter what the outside world was exactly like, if it was just ocean, just desert, just snow, it didn't matter to him. What mattered is that the world outside, his ideal free world is a world that's completely empty, the vast EMPTINESS of the world is freedom to Eren, for Armin freedom represents wonder to the things outside, for Eren as long as it's empty, devoid of people, war, and anything like inside the walls then that would be his ideal outside world, for him that would be freedom itself, like a bird in the sky where nothing exists.
But the outside world is just like inside the walls, it's cruel, and eventually he would realise that the people were also the same, and that was incredibly disappointing to him, that his ideal free world didn't exist was disappointing.
Of course, just as you said, he has other things to think about, the fact that the entire world is his enemy, that his father's memories were true and many others.
But his disappointment that the ideal free world wasn't real is also a part of him, and also a part of what makes him act and think like he does from that point on in the story, later the narrator himself says that Eren was also thinking about other things and I think you understood everything afterwards and just didn't say it out loud.
In the same chapter 131 that people like so much, they neglected the part where Eren said "It is for Eldia, but it is more than that" and then "the outside world, it is nothing like what was shown in Armin's book".
And then the craziest thing he said, "when I realized that people lived beyond the walls, i was so disappointed".
So for all the people who are saying Eren activated the Rumbling solely for Eldia's sake, that is not totally true. He was picturing his ideal world, a world devoid of people, war or whatever. And that empty wasteland is his definition of freedom.
Would he kill Marley if they didn't try to kill him ?
44:50 he said that the creator of aot himself said that the spinoff would be necessary to understand eren in the Canon story
15:48 What about chapter 131 contradicts Invaderzz's claim that Eren caused the rumbling because he wanted to, due to being unable to accept the world outside the walls was different to what he imagined?
In 131 Eren says to Ramzi, "For the sake of the Island, the Eldians... No, it wasn't just that... What was really beyond the walls... It was different from what I dreamed of... From the world I saw in Armin's book (starts crying again)... It was different... When I learned that humanity lived outside the walls... I was disappointed. I... I wished... For everything to somehow disappear. I'm sorry..."
From this I think its pretty obvious that Invaderzz's point makes a lot of sense. Ofc he starts off by telling Ramzi he did it for the sake of the island, but he follows it up immediately by pretty much confirming that Eldia wasn't the main reason. You could even argue it was a cope in order to justify his actions to himself. Its pretty clear from this chapter that a massive part of his motivation for causing the rumbling is out of his inability to reconcile with the state of the outside world. So again I ask, what about chapter 131 contradicts Invaderzz's claim?
well when it comes down to it, I don't think Invaderz thinks Eren is truly selfish, especially since alot of comments on his vid take away that Eren isn't the villain. But something he missed about the ending, as well as foreshadowing for it, was that this ending was inspired by The Mist, a movie about a main character who starts out one way, contradicts it, but then returns to his original self at the end. Eren said alot of contradictory stuff, including when he realized it and he said he wanted to continue the rumbling but he didn't know why he felt that way, even when he said he made it clear he didn't want to do it and when he did, he had better motives in mind. But then Armin punched him, and in a moment that Isayama described as "Eren is back", Eren breaks down in sorrow about everything, and from there, we see Eren get the heroic sendoff and treatment from Armin and the rest of the alliance.
The story made it pretty clear that Eren isn't selfish, and those who use Invaderz vid to prove that he is are really just trying to cope with the ending and how it humanized Eren.
@@CHRISCAMPO-wq8bi for starters, idk why you replied to my comment when you werent going to answer the question i posed or even really address anything i made in regards to chapter 131.
The comments on his video? You mean people in the comments section? Im rather confused as to what you mean or why you would bring this up. AoT isnt a cut and dry as to have villains and good guys, the entire story is basically enforcing this point. Eren isnt "the villain", but he certainly isnt a hero. I dont think Invaderz claims Eren is either in his video. If people in the comments are saying eren is a hero or whatever, then they are silly in my view.
Your next point doesnt make a lot of sense tbh, could you reword it maybe? I dont see why bringing up The Mist proves any point you are making. Eren is character who starts out with a selfish and childish drive for freedom, seemingly contradicts that, but inevitably returns to this original state (reductive character analysis but you get the overall point). Invaderz explained this pretty well in the video, so im not gonna go over it again.
Main characters are usually complex. Eren's does not only have one character trait (being selfish), however, his childish and selfish drive for freedom is a very important part of his character and motivations. Again this is also explained in Invaderz's video. For you just to dismiss his video as a "cope", and not provide any good arguments against it, is rather silly.
And why would i cope about the ending humanising eren? Attack on Titan has always done this with important characters. Thats not a bad thing. I'm rather confused on what your overall point is lol.
Why Eren stopped at 80%? Sure there is no human in armins BOOK (his freedom)
@@denampavel1883 what?
@@solar6142 the "contradiction" ???
Tl;dr: It actually was a great ending that made sense in the grand scheme of the story. It is a story about humans and our flaws and the vicious cycles that we inevitably fall back into even after we resolve the current issues in front of us. Though I won't lie, I would have LOVED IT if the 139.5 pages weren't added in. But again, that's just me speaking on an ideal world that I've trapped myself in, the way that Eren did. You can't have everything. It's a more realistic ending and allows one to decide whether or not the cycle of the Titans is to continue. Just because I don't like/prefer something doesn't make it bad.
The biggest thing I see that people never bring up is that at the end of the day Eren and Ymir are HUMAN. They aren't perfect beings who are completely omniscient and have no human complexity to them as people often portray them as. Eren literally is a 19-year-old kid with the burden of the world on his shoulders. Hence why he broke down multiple times in the manga about his transgressions that he knew were going to take place. He is a flawed character because humans are imperfect. Humans are contradictory. Everyone I've seen that complains about the ending wants Eren to be a more straightforward and simple character. One that does not deviate from the mass murdering being that he has put himself to be. BUT Eren himself is not a god, and his flaws up until the very end of his life showed us that as much power as we may have, humans are foolish creatures as seen in his breakdown to Armin in chapter 139. His childish idealism was never going to happen in the reality of the world as it is/was.
Also, Ymir the founder is often talked about in the same way (by the AoT community) that the royal family has always regarded to her as, a tool. It's like the community is King Fritz/Zeke and many of them don't understand that she was just a girl who was manipulated and wanted for someone to understand her instead of using her. Hence why Eren was the perfect and only person who had ever acknowledged her simply as another person, a human being. Eren showed her that she had a right to her own decisions, her own... Freedom. She waited 2000 years for Eren and Mikasa. Yes, though she loved Karl Fritz even after all that had transpired, I sometimes think of her like Violet Evergarden. She only ever knew how to do one thing and her conviction led her to only know one way of life. Until someone came along and acknowledged her existence as more than just a tool.
Also, idk why you mentioned that you HAVE to choose to be an antagonist or a protagonist and that you can't do both because you clearly can @1:47:45. That's why anti-heroes and anti-villain tropes also exist. AoT has never been black or white in morality and humans are much more complex than that. If you haven't already learned this concept from the show, especially with Reiner, Eren, and Gabi being prime examples of learning this development, then idk what else to tell you.
As for how you mentioned Eren to Walter from Breaking Bad, they are different. Eren again, did not enjoy the destruction he brought upon the world. His nature is not destruction, rather he is essentially the embodiment of the Attack Titan/Freedom incarnate @1:46:50. This was already discussed by Invaderzz in his video. And mentioned by me in the first paragraph. Timestamp to what saint said ---> @1:52:35. It would have been extremely contradictory for Eren as a character at this point to simply say, "Oh I did it because I enjoyed killing off the world". or something among those lines. That wouldn't have been good, and it would simply have made Eren a super generic bad guy in the end and removed literally all the other meaningful moments in the manga where his humanity came through for us to observe.
Eren literally said he’d destroy the world anyway out of it pleasure I don’t think you understood Invaderzz video he literally said Eren is a psychopath
While he makes good points in this video I also thinks he does major mental gymnastics to make 139 make sense I also don’t agree with the “he did it because he wanted to” narrative Eren quite literally HAD to do the rumbling presented many times throughout the story it was either the rumbling (80 or 100%) or roll over and wait for the rest of the world to kill them
The 50 year plan? Yes, it has it's shares of flaws. The world would hate and be terrified of Paradis but the threat of the Rumbling and what they saw of it would make sure they steer clear of the island.
Also, if you think AoT of all stories would provide a full proof resolution to human conflict then...whelp
Eren WANTED to believe there were no other choices; but the fact was the other choice that was there went against his ideal and who he was as a person. It meant continuing the cycle of using royal babies as weapon of war, his friends inheriting his Titan and him not experiencing his warped up version of freedom, so Eren rejected it. There goes your illusion of 'Had to'/'choicelessness' that is legit one of the themes of AoT- people doing horrible shit while convincing themselves that there are no choices/ they are doing it for the 'greater good'. Erwin's arc, Reiner's arc, Eren's arc...all point the same
He had to do it if he WANTED to ensure that Paradis would survive.
Both are true
But that’s literally what 139 shows and that’s what the conversation with Reiner show. When Reiner reveals his own reasons- that he wanted to, Eren says that they’re the same. This shows that Eren had to have another reason for his rumbling as well, and that reason is exactly as said in 131 and 139.
The thing is, does Eren really want the whole Paradise to survive? So far what I could see is he only cares about his own friends. Which kinda selfish...but logical in a way? He's 19 and Paradise people aren't good people anyway. The Yaegerists have also become fascists so there's no hoping that Paradise will stay peaceful forever.
@@yamshimi6014 If he cared for and only his friends he could very easily go with any other plan like the 50 year plan , or zekes plan ... He never had to kill 80% of humanity , his actions and reasons for killing so Many people just to give his friends a peaceful life , makes no sens If he can achieve the same think with better plans , pshichopatic characters are not compeling , and will never be ...
He says that there is only one timeline, and then proceeds to show a manga panel that shows the future Eren anime timeline at 50:19? He's blatantly contradicting himself as he speaks, and I don't know why he does that. Most of what he says is valid, but only when looking at the manga timeline in isolation. There are obviously several timelines.
44:50 dude school caste was stated by the author to be relevant and important to the story so u can not refute the argument that it’s not a part of the story
1:22:36
Eren knows his friends best and he knows they would never go along with his actions no matter how much he tried
Could you picture armin, Hange jean or Connie as yeagerists?
1:45:00
I disagree I think aot is a story that had always and should be open to interpretation
And also Eren would never let his friends just sit in paths because he clearly stated that he wouldn’t take their freedom to fight them away in 133
"Eren knows his friends best and he knows they would never go along with his actions no matter how much he tried
Could you picture armin, Hange jean or Connie as yeagerists"
I think he meant that according to invaderz logic he should have atleast tried to convince them.
Also if eren knew that his friends would never side with him then why did he try to push them away in the first place. why did he tell mikasa that he hated her and basicly just be an asshole to his friends. If erens friend were never gonna side with him in the first place then there was no reason for him to be an asshole to his friends.
@@aDsnow it’s explained he told mikasa he hated her because he didn’t want her caring about him with what he’d become
But even when he tried to push them away to protect him they still came after him in the end
Tbh I completely agree that the whole but with pushing his friends away is confusing but I still don’t think any of them would be yeagerists or eren would even consider that a possibility that they would be
@@youdonthavetolikemeiloveme3621 I feel like it just got explained poorly.
@@aDsnow yeah i agree honestly
On School Castes, I think he meant that it’s a good argument, but since it doesn’t take place in the same universe, it’s hard for people to understand if they don’t read School Castes or are anime watchers.
2 things can be true at the same time, he wanted to wipe out the world and yet at the same time have his friends stop him
Should he wipe out the world his friends r free, should they stop him they’re also now free
Also, 1:00:00 is a great point and gives reasoning to “I’m a slave to freedom” from Eren
But the counterpoint is also good
Y did Grisha give Eren the Titan if he wanted Zeke to stop Eren which goes against the ideology cause according to the ideology the outcome can’t be changed but if he doesn’t want to give it to Eren what would propel him to do so
Eren also says that he didn’t know if he was gonna be stopped but was going to keep moving forward anyway chapter 139 is just so bad written lmao he says it was his plan to make them look like the hero but then also says this in the same chapter 😭
Did... Did you watch the video...? Because it explained the situation pretty clearly
@@mwndjddjdhdbbf8408 With the amount of comments still shitting on the ending, most of these people didn’t even watch the video
@@mwndjddjdhdbbf8408 they are still coping that they didn't got their part of fanservice like those eremika retards,seriously I hate both sides of this fandom,they are ignorant asf
@@Sanguinnius out of all the languages you could have spoken, you decided to speak facts
@@niallv14 I'm convinced they didn't read the manga either. At this point every single time I see someone say things like "the ending is trash" or "you can like it if you want, but it's objectively bad" I just know they're an idiot and move on. It sucks but AOT has the worst fanbase to ever exist.
I think the reason Eren sent the memories to Grisha is because he thought he'd appreciate seeing that beautiful view. Especially since from what Eren knew he wanted to bring down Marley.
So, if eren is a slave to his own idea of being free, his plan to wipe out the world was his actual goal. Then, why did he fail to wipe out the world? He is the founding titan, he can control all titan shifters and shit, then why the fuck didn't he finish the plan man? What I don't understand is how can he fail at something that he doesn't want to fail, given that he can't fail if he doesn't want to fail. Since he didn't want to fail at his plan (he's a slave to the idea of being free), then he won't fail (because he's the founding titan and he can control all titans, therefore non-titans can't do anything about eren's plan of wiping out the world). Explain me that and I'll be a step closer to understanding the end.
they can’t explain that simple question
That's the paradox. And ultimately I don't think there's a satisfactory answer for that. Though I do think it's within reason to accept that paradox and move on. The reason I say that is simple - if Grisha needed to be convinced to steal the founding titan in the first place, and Eren needed the founding titan in order to convince him, how then was Grisha convinced in the first place to steal it? When was the first action? Eren having the founding titan or grisha stealing it - which requires the founding titan. The same holds true with Eren's choice not to stop his friends according to his video. Leaving them with the Titan powers give him the means to defeat him, but he gave them the Titan powers because he saw them defeat him - which one's the first action? A Paradox much like the Grisha in the Chapel in 121.
Furthermore, Eren's primary goal in the Rumbling as defined by this video is reaching that freedom - Chapter 131. That's already accomplished by the time the alliance stops him, so it's mission accomplished by then.
Because it was a pre-determined end and there was nothing Eren could do to stop it.
Because if he flatten 100% of the world it will cost his friends and this is something he can't never sacrifice. On this 80%. It's really a combination of his desire for freedom and concern of his friend's safety. Eren can reached and experience the freedom like what was shown in chapter 131 and then he invited his friends to Paths and talk to them about them later will stop him. But someone like Eren would want to continue to feel the ecstasy of freedom longer, that's why he kept going until his friends caught up to him.
Then also he saw the future about his friends will stop him, so it's just ensure the point
So much unnecessary fluff in invaderz video, he could have made all his points in 30 min if not less
The man might need to attend a literature class if he can't make such simple points in at least 45 minutes. I struggle with the same problem myself in my writing but not this badly 😅
@Manvëru well to be fair he had to explain how he interpreted Eren in the past (his interpretations we're BS but) in order for his points later to make since which in general is important when dissecting Erens character
gotta make it to 1 hour so people think is reliable
@@glamrock3976 its people like you that cant engage in intellectual conversations or comprehend the importance of conveying information diligently would think that way. Invader did the right thing in taking the time he did so folks like you would have no conclusive arguments or criticisms against a majority of his points. Even dude in the video is secretly turned but doesnt realise it. Laughs at 'eren did the rumbling cause he wanted to' but accepts and understand Reiners pov and even later in the video himself said yes eren is an inherently violent person LMFAO. You post season 4 eren fans are funny. This video was much needed for the asinine discourse in this fandom and the misconceptions surrounding eren. It's so hard for the yeagerists to accept Eren was never a yeagarist himself
@@Musashi139 Real shit man. AOT Fandom is the worst Fandom on the entire planet.
Honestly, I don't really disagree with what Invaderzz says. While I do disagree with some of the things he's said, some of them big, ones you already mostly pointed out, I must say, this ending that Invaderzz sees and how he view's Eren's story and it's end, is actually fairly accurate. The problem is, that a lot of things still make no sense. There are a lot of plot holes left within the story and I'm not going to go over them, y'all can just watch saintitchief's videos cause he pointed them out :)
In any case, to sum it up, what Invaderzz says is mostly true. Eren is pathetic. He even admits it before the battle of Orvud, when he thinks that beating himself up will change who he is. He has never changed. The problem is that Invaderzz ignores the fact that he is writing for the author. He is doing what Isayama should have done, when writing his own story. By the end, everything should be clear and we should be able to understand why everything happened and why we were wrong about Eren. Isayama literally fucked the final arc in that regard. Because even though the body (that is the over all story) exists, it lacks a skeleton (the details and how the story is written) to support itself. And no, I don't believe in that "Eren loves Mikasa" bullshit. There is nothing romantic between them, there never was.
That's what every ending defenders does
@@minorka2 I'm not at all an ending defender if that's what you're implying.
I don’t think he’s pathetic at all. He made chooses even some of the strongest people wouldn’t dare to do regardless if those chooses were right or wrong. He did was he thought was the right, but another side of him knew the outcome would be disastrous. Chapt 139 eren wasn’t a pathetic crybaby like people kept saying. They were more mad with the fact that he didn’t destroy the rest of the world and would do it with the dead facial expression he had since the start of the Marley arc. Sure it was a little cringy seeing him cry like that and I’m not gonna use the “he’s still 19 and young” comment because he still killed people when he was 9, but if you not only killed 1.65 billion people, but know you’re gonna die and won’t be able to see your loves ones again, you’re gonna feel some type of way and say unordinary shit. He never got the change to tell his friends his true feelings as well, but eren fan boys would rather for him to be an emo genocide supporter with no care in the world then someone who gives a shit about his friends. Then you have the real crybabies of the fandom whining to the other side of the fandom who likes like ending or at least defending it, like bro they’re just drawings no need to take offense. Overall I’m saying that people are going to hard on his character, either making him a cruel bastard or some pathetic loser. I’m not saying he’s a sweetheart or nothing, but his character has a lot of depth to him. Which is why it’s so complex. I didn’t think the ending was the best and it certainly had its issues, but even so, I’ll always appreciate isayama and this wonderful story he has given us.
@@daryeusford9696 he gave you*.
he gave me a garbage story.
@@saintitchief well then that's your problem
Looks like saintitchief found another clown. Another day another clown.
Yes, it does mean everyone is a slave. That is the point of the entire story lmao. I think the problem people have with the story is that they simply don't agree with the nihilistic philosophy the story is based on thematically. If you can't accept the fundamental philosophy for what it is, you can't accept the story. As someone who studies a lot of philosophy and listens to a lot of debates it's easy to come to the conclusion that right and wrong are very subjective and there's no real definitive answer to any existential question.
That and time travel inherently makes no sense but I think Isayama knew that and is trying to use the timey wimey nonsense as a metaphor for examining the paradoxes of the human condition (not saying you don't have perfectly legitimate gripes with the logic of the story because the concept of time travel makes no inherent sense to begin with and why as a writer I would never personally even touch the concept). The story doesn't have a satisfying conclusion cause I don't think it was ever meant to have one. Can basically sum it up as "life sucks and then you die".
Couple that with his own admitted lack of confidence he probably tried to maintain that nihilistic ending but got cold feet and tried to find a middle ground. Pressure might've just gotten to him, hell for all we know there was pressure from the publisher to alter things. Not enjoying the ending is 100% understandable as I don't love it myself but I can see the idea he is going for and personally commend him for even attempting it and appreciate it for what it is. I just can't stand when people say he's a horrible writer when he kept them glued to a story for 139 chapters regardless of how they felt about the ending because that in itself proves he can write. There's more to someone's merit as a writer than the raw logical consistency of one story. He knows how to create suspense and mystery, he knows how to weave a complex plot with multiple characters and motivations with some pretty realistic sophistication and he isn't afraid to experiment with nonconventional themes and characters.
I remember reading an interview where Isayama talked about how he started writing the story when he was at a low point in his life trying to make it as a mangaka and said he wanted to "hurt" his readers. Judging by all your videos on the ending, I'd say he fuckin nailed it LOL.
At the end of the day though I can't blame anyone for not enjoying the ending cause clearly most people wanted a clear, logical and satisfying conclusion with tied up ends and not some commentary on complex existential/philosophical questions and that's a 10000% valid stance to have after such a long ride.
when he shrugged off the slave concept i cringed. “so your saying everyone is a slave” yes that’s exactly what he’s saying don’t act like you checkmated him.
@@bb-mf9yz Yeah, dude just spouts his objective opinion as fact, gets overly reactionary and then probably can't figure out why his channel doesn't grow. The invaderzzz video wasn't even trying to say the ending was inherently good or bad, he simply tried to interpret the story with the information it gives us and clarify some misunderstandings some people have had with it, if you still don't like it that's fair but this guy acts like invaderzzz was trying to convince anyone they are wrong in not liking the story when he wasn't. Dude took it oddly personal and it's kind of embarrassing to watch.
I honestly just don't think most of the fanbase is mature/studied enough to appreciate anything the ending tried to do, even if he didn't get it perfect.
Eren is literally the personification of the Shonen protagonist tropes (hard headed, driven to an almost inhuman degree, "pure" as many authors describe them) except instead of it being a positive thing like Goku in Dragon Ball, it's a dark twist on it which I find rather refreshing.
@@joshvarga3591 spot on.
to appreciate the narrative, you have to think outside of what is being presented to you on a surface level, and you can't do that when your entire sense of what's being shown is based on objectivity. truth is, I couldn't care less if you think its bad. but when you say things like "terrible writing" "meaningless" and "character assassination" I cant help but think that you have failed to understand the story, and the point of the story.
@@bb-mf9yz It's funny because in a way I see the fans that do those things the same way I view Armin, Mikasa and the other people surrounding Eren, there are so many red flags Eren exhibits throughout the story and yet his friends seem to subconsciously and sometimes consciously ignore or misinterpret them. They have an idealized version of him that they see until it is too late, and in a way the fans view the story in the same way. The story didn't end up being the story they thought they were getting and thus are blind sided by it. At least Armin and Mikasa accepted what was in front of them and came to terms with it instead of endlessly throwing a fit about it hahaha.
@@bb-mf9yz I find if you view the story more as a mythological parable much like the Norse mythology the story clearly finds a ton of inspiration from, it becomes a lot easier to accept and even seems much more brilliant. (Odin is fated to die in Ragnarok and every effort to change his fate only solidifies it more and it's pretty easy to see the similarities of Odin's story and Eren's but AoT is just far more fleshed out and tackles a variety of topics/existential questions through different characters)
That and every time some whines about Eren actually getting emotional about Mikasa I can't help but roll my eyes. Imagine thinking getting emotional in your dying confession to your best life long friend makes you a "simp" or a brat. Yeah, his feelings for her weren't heavily built upon in the story but there's a few moments where it shows in subtle ways which is far more interesting story telling than flat out stating it in an inner monologue, honestly if you couldn't see it you simply aren't very perceptive. And why waste more pages on making it obvious in the story when it's ultimately not a major factor and he's only got so many pages to work with? His outburst just served to try and humanize him more.
1:54:57 HE ALREADY knew that sasha is gonna die. He couldnt do anything against it. Thats why he got a little breakdown hearing her last word. He saw her simple wish/dream and she still had to die. After learning the future one more time, he also knew that hanji will die he cant prevent it. U are getting misleaded again. He cant CHANGE the future, but he can still take his actions so that this future will take place. because of that thinking that he has to change the things so that this future will come true leaded to this future. He knew his mother will die so he had to make dina go this way so that comes true.
That isn't confirmed. He could ve breaking down because she died. Also keep in mind that the memory shards are the only things he had at this point. Sasha wasn't in the shards.
@@encouraginglyauthentic43 bro the sharps were only a visualisation
How is Hanji dying inevitable?
While Sasha's death could be attributed to Eren's actions at least it was beyond Eren's control that Gabi pulled the trigger.
Meanwhile Eren had complete control of the Titans that Hanji was trying to slow down. Not only that, he had some level of clairvoyance, where he was observing the alliance in their efforts to stop him. Logically speaking he could have stopped Hanji from dying by slowing down the Titans but he didn't.
1:50:38 you cant compare that to breaking bad! The difference is that eren saw the future. He really doesnt know where that desire came from. Maybe it came bc he saw the future but maybe just bc of his nature and maybe both. He doesnt know! He also said that he wanted to do that. But he cant say why. I havent seen breaking bad but i think that walter can seperate future from past unlike as eren and bc of that he also knows WHY he wanted to do that for himself.
sooo moral of the story is that isyama WANTED to divide the fanbase... ahh okay... i like the ending now... yaaaaaay. smh
Wait a minute….. he said he didn’t know if his friends would survive the rumbling… so if the friends were the priority the WHOLE time why did he go through with it in the first place? Helloooo
In the middle of the video he said Erens character progression was genuine, at the end he says he remained childish and did not change WHAT
@@BROWNSMAGIC I didn’t even watch the video, but he was most likely referring to Eren’s core never changing.
@@bunfagam3021 well if you watch it he said Eren begins the series childish and he ends it childish so it makes sense. I think that is a contradiction to say us witnessing him growing up and becoming more thoughtful, pragmatic, and able to see things in shades of grey was us witnessing genuine character progression then in the same video saying he started the series childish and ended it childish
@@BROWNSMAGIC Eren did grow as a character and understand all the concepts you stated but at the end of the day, his own selfish desire to fight for “freedom” lead to him rejecting all of those ideas for the sake of doing what he wanted
His closest friends were his second priority his first priority was the scenery, his third priority was Eldia.
1:22:50 , in my opinion, the reason he didn't send the message out to his friends to try to get them to stop him is because he already knew he would be stopped (when obtaining the Founding Titan) and there's nothing that could change that.
Now as for him not trying before seeing the future and having the Founding Titan. I believe that Eren knew he wouldn't have convinced Armin and his friends because it would have conflicted with their beliefs.
sounds pretty convenient
@@saintitchief We're not really told, so we're left wondering. Truly tragic.
What really grinds my gears about Eren and Armin's characters in the end is: This dude Eren just murdered millions of people and Armin is berating him about Mikasa's feelings.....Who tf cares about Mikasa's feelings at a time like that? How Mikasa feels has nothing to do with the fact that Eren just killed millions (for no reason, according to him). Throughout the entire story, Mikasa was never Eren's sole focus and that's really what bothers me about the incel outburst from Eren. It was completely irrelevant and came out of nowhere. It adds no depth to Eren's character nor does it answer why he did the Rumbling nor does it answer for any of his actions at all.
So you are telling me there was no interest in mikasa coming from eren throughout the whole series. So the scarf scene dosnt exist or the first panel of the manga. It was literally hinted at since the beginning. Also chapter 123 where he asks mikasa what he is to him. There are also subtle details like in 121 where he was looking at the scene where he was wrapping the scarf around mikasa. But no I’m wrong he never showed interest I’m just making up a false scenario in my head.
139 happened during 131. He had JUST started the rumbling, so no he didn't kill millions and then talk to Armin. He had an outburst because that's how he really felt and I guess Yams didn't have enough panels to make that more clear. But when he gives Mikasa a 'dream' you can see how much he's changed and is now content with dying. He tells Mikasa to forget about him showing his growth.
@@ashuraamvs9638 You Scarf Enthusiasts love using that eye-rolling scene as evidence to prove that Eren loves Mikasa when it's the most vague "love scene" of all time. They were literally 9 years old and complete strangers to each other. A child wrapping a scarf around another child who just went through an extremely traumatic experience *does not* automatically mean requited love partners for life. How about comforting Mikasa because her life will never be what it was just a few hours ago and she was most likely cold, having to be interrogated outside by Grisha and the MPs??
Chapter 123 when Eren asked Mikasa how she felt about him *was not* Eren ultimately saying he has romantic feelings for her. As blunt and brash as Eren is, why not just say he loves her right then and there, if that's how he truly feels, instead of being vague and complicating things?? Eren was looking for an excuse there to run away with Mikasa so he didn't have to do The Rumbling and kill millions of innocent people. The intentions on Eren's part there weren't romantic at all.
Literally all of Eren's interactions with Mikasa throughout the series are either him abusing her or just extremely vague things that a human being who has a decent amount of sympathy for the life of another human being. If it was so outwardly obvious that Eren loved Mikasa all along, Eren's character in 139 wouldn't be so controversial to fans still till this day. Like seriously, it's more convincing that Eren has romantic feelings for Armin over his so-called "romantic feelings" for Mikasa. They have a worse love story than Twilight....
@@digestmymind Dude, what are you talking about? Literally in the beginning of their conversation, Armin says he's worried about the world retaliating on Paradis because Eren did the Rumbling and Eren responds that he wiped out 80% of humanity before the Alliance stopped him. How the hell is this taking place just as The Rumbling started...???
@@ProlificPops Eren says that by the end he'll have wiped out 80% because they managed to stop him. He knows this because he can see the future through memories. Go back to 131 and you'll see Armin was taken into Paths, but no other dialogue or scenes with Armin in Paths until 139.
Remember that time in Paths moves differently. What's shown in the panel in 131 is that Armin sees into the Paths and sees Eren's child self. Then in the very next panel Annie is talking to him. He starts a dialogue with Annie as though nothing ever happened.
What happens during 139 is a conversation Eren had with Armin during 131, which he then erased his memories and told Armin he'd get them back later. Armin was given his memories back after successfully managing to stop Eren. That is when 139 occurs, and Armin wakes up afterwards.
I'm honest, I think AOT has a "Plot Twist" moment just like 5-toubun. However, the author should have known that if the fan (especially big fandom) can't think about that possibility, then it must mean that the ending is very "unconvincing", "unthinkable" in the first place, and if you force the plot twist to surprise everyone, then yes, it surprised everyone...
Saying school cast isnt a valdid source for Erens character is like saying interviews with Isayama arent valid either. Yeah, none of them are IN the story, but they are still the creator explaining Eren.
dont care. thats like JK saying dumbledore was gay. not in the story, doesn’t count
@@saintitchief No, because School cast was planned from the beginning, it was at the end of every manga. JK saying dumbedore is gay came out of nowhere and wasnt planned or built up over the span of the Harry potter books. School cast wasnt something Isayama threw together after the manga just to say "This is Erens character now". School life doesnt change Erens character in any way either, it just reinforces what we already knew about him and just gave us additional conext.
@@osmya0044 doesn’t matter. has to be in story.
@@saintitchief dude the other guy is right.
School caste is technically part of the manga and an AU-verse extension and commentary of the story there’s also Isas interviews to back this up
It’s like saying the ovas aren’t part of the story
But even more so because Isayama actually wrote this while the ovas were created by the anime staff( as far as I know)
@@ginafilarski5728 But didn't invaderz say in his video that attack on titan only has 1 universe (timeline). So if the school cast is canon then that means alternative universes are canon in attack on titan. Doesn't that mean that invaderz contradicted himself. Also if alternative universes are canon in aot then that only backs up Aoe theories.
1:03:16 You're kidding, right? The answer is literally in your face.
And he doesn't say that things would have happened the same way, but that the rules of the universe wouldn't change if someone witnesses the future or not. The universe we live in could be a deterministic one and nobody needs to look into the future to make it true, it is true even if nobody sees the future, that's what he's saying.
ah so nothing matters, none of eren's or anyone else's choices matter cause at the end of the day "destiny". got it.
@@saintitchief Bro, WHAT?
@@saintitchiefEren would have sent his memories to the past because he would have wanted to do so to manipulate the past and make things go the way that they went, you clearly know this and that's what made you question what he said. So the future is set not because of some supernatural force but because the characters would want to make those decisions.
The thing is that you misunderstood what he was trying to convey on that sentence
"In a deterministic universe, even if the future is not seen, does not mean that different outcomes are possible"
The thing here is that he wasn't talking specifically about the universe of AoT, because in the universe of AOT the future IS SEEN and that affects the timeline, he was talking about how in a deterministic universe, if nobody sees the future and the universe is deterministic then things are set to happen in a certain way because people will make decisions from their own will, and there are no different outcomes because the people in said universe wouldn't be able to make another choice because they wouldn't want to make another choice.
If Eren had never seen the future (universe that doesn't exist) he would eventually have wanted to send his memories back to make the future that he wants to come true, so it would create a loop were he would know that he sends his memories back and when the time came he would send his memories back not only because he knows he would do it, but because he would have wanted to do it anyway.
@@yagoldt6195 “but then why did eren send the memories in the first place” i facepalmed.
@@yagoldt6195 I feel like an “easy” way to get this through ppls minds is to put like this: Kay so since eren can see the future through his own dads memories of his future self , everything essentially is happening at the same time. So don’t think of it as a timeline anymore. Think of it as something that happened, is happening and will happen no matter what. So now what’s left? Nothing else! It’s a loop. Not destiny, but just the natural way time works whether you see the future or not. future eren sends his own memories of the future back to his father so that eren can see. Okay? So yes because of this, he managed to start his own story. Yes he knew it would happen anyway, but that’s because future eren caused it. Now loop this. It’s infinity. Basically impossible to fathom. That’s why I like the resolution to the story. Because it’s essentially something that is supposed to be too difficult for the average human mind to understand. So much so that even the author can’t explain it himself. Just thinking about it logically can help a bit but not give you the entire understanding. So In other words: realistic. There is so much we don’t understand in our universe and aot kinda does that exact thing.. it’s just something we can’t understand and never will. It’s open to interpretation BECAUSE it’s realistic. That’s exactly how everything in life works.
(I know I’m a month late. Just wanted to get my thoughts out there lmao)
But again much like Kenny, Eren made the Choice his own choice. He made the choice to send memories back to himself, he mad the choice to alter history, he made the choice to use the Rumbling. He wanted his freedom and by extension his peoples freedom his friend’s freedom. But his friends chose a path against him, and b/c of that He made the choice to fight them. 139 just makes him high on Paths only to find out he had no choice at all which stinks because Attack on Titan’s story has always been about making a choice and facing the consequence of that choice.
Levi said it himself, make the choice you least regret…………
Kill your friends, kill billions, and get your freedom for the greater good
Save your friends, allow them to kill you, and let your island get destroyed
He didn’t send memories back to himself. He sent them to grisha and when he kissed historias hand, he only saw things Grisha saw.
1:49:00 you have no idea how much i wanted eren to say something like this
12:54 - 14:03 Eren is shown ahead of the others (focused on the future/moving forward) and didn’t grab the shell from Armin, which represents the appreciation of the ocean (he does so in 139, a callback to this scene). He did not enjoy the ocean like the others. Why? He didn’t let himself as he was focused on his lack... but freedom is right in front of him. It’s a mental barrier. This scene is significant for Eren for the reason you stated: he should be enjoying the ocean.
14:20 - 15:12 Armin knows about the threat of the outside you said, but he’s still enjoying the ocean. He’d then be “pretending this isn’t happening” as you say?
The reality of the CURRENT situation is that they’re at the ocean. A milestone like you said. Eren is not facing this reality, he’s not seeing the beauty of this reality and instead is fixed on the cruelty, that part of reality (future, as he’s ahead. They’re fighting in the future not now, so why not enjoy this moment?). He’s the one who isn’t facing the full current reality, only the cruelty of it and the future to come. Now facing reality isn’t the same as accepting it, as he doesn’t accept the reality of the situation and plans to destroy the cruelty entirely.
To Eren, he can’t enjoy the beauty until he destroys all cruelty since he cannot accept that.
The others could enjoy it, so this thinking of Eren’s is not the “true” meaning of freedom. It’s his twisted one that enslaved him. This scene shows that as it could not allow him to enjoy the simple moments. Because no, we’re not free yet (according to Eren).
28:32 - 30:06 Eren isn’t doing it only because he wants to. But that’s his main reason. Like with Reiner as well, if they came back with nothing they’d probably be killed along with their families. That’s one reason for him but his main one was to be respected - a want.
Eren wanted to destroy the world meaning he wanted to rid his enemies blocking him from “freedom”. He did it because he “wanted” freedom. That’s the primary reason. He can’t have freedom until all of his blockages are gone.
33:04 - 35:45 If everyone is a slave to something, how can they be free? If everyone is fighting for their dreams, and this fighting is what enslaves them, how can they be free? While fighting, one can either enjoy it or not. One can either give up on something or not (especially if what they must give up on is not a source of happiness and far-fetched). When they cannot accept reality, they cannot be free as reality includes the beauty and cruelty of the world. If one doesn’t see the beauty, they can’t be happy. If one doesn’t accept the cruelty, they also cannot be happy as this means they are always dissatisfied at the world just for being the way it is. Having a dream be a source of happiness is what makes you free. (If it isn’t a source of happiness, like for Eren it’s a source of anger, then giving up on that source of hatred by simply accepting things as they are and finding happiness makes you free).
Eren is a slave as he does not take the shell, but only after he accepts reality (grounded panel, the one where he sits facing the destruction as opposed to freedom panel where he ignores reality) does he take the shell. Being literally grounded and accepting the reality you were faced with is when you can enjoy it.
So a slave is forced to gather cotton.
According to real life common sense logic, they are simply a slave.
According to story logic (artistic/thematic logic should I put it?), more specifically for the story of AOT, the cotton farmer is only a slave if they are miserable doing what they are doing. They are free if they enjoy what they are doing and do it willingly (I know, this would be stupid if applied to real life but bear in mind this is a story portraying philosophical themes), kind of like the boy who willingly went to the tree 🤔.
“In this meaningless world and our meaningless lives, we hoped to find some meaning.” as Traute Caven (worked for Kenny) says, sounds a lot like absurdism. Philosopher Camus used the myth of Sisyphus to explore the dilemma of searching for a meaning to life in a world with no inherent meaning. Sisyphus was forced to push a rock up a hill only for it to roll back down and the process repeats. Just like the cotton farmer. Oh, and just like Zeke, when he catches and throws the baseball. It’s all pointless. Why search for a meaning in life when it’s all pointless? Because you can enjoy doing it. The lesson to be learned from Sisyphus is that he must accept the absurdity of his condition but push the rock up the hill willingly, happily. The same conclusion is reached by Zeke, in paths. He accepts that the world may be meaningless, but he enjoys the simple repetition of catching and throwing regardless. Because life is cruel, but also beautiful.
I think it is quite clear that accepting the cruel yet beautiful world is a theme in the story which ties into its meaning of freedom, yes?
Many apply the first kind of logic to critique the story and especially Eren, without seeing it through the second lens. Or even critique the second lens’ view of the story using this real life logic. But at the end of the day, the story portrayed its themes and these themes may not make sense in real life, but this isn’t real life. It’s a story, where characters may make stupid decisions when it comes to real life, but smart decisions when it comes to what’s right for the story.
Eren is in a bad situation with the world against them. But does this mean he can’t enjoy the ocean? No. So despite the cruelty of their situation, they can still enjoy life and be free then.
I think this is what you were trying to say when you brought up the bad living conditions of the cotton farmer.
That argument looks like it comes from the first kind of logic which is why I brought that up and established this as a theme in the story.
When taken literally, someone is suffering and that’s it. That makes them a slave.
Taken thematically (according to AOT), someone is suffering but when they see that it is not ONLY suffering and embrace their situation, they’re free.
Again, it may look stupid in real life because how could you enjoy life when you have horrible living conditions/people trying to kill you? Through another lens however, it is not stupid for the story since that is what it’s trying to say.
Those who think a theme makes the story dumb ultimately think the theme itself is dumb and most likely don’t agree with it but not agreeing with an idea doesn’t mean someone can’t enjoy its portrayal.
It’s basically saying that according to the story’s definition of freedom, Eren is not free. Not because of his living conditions however, but the way he views it. Freedom is internal not external like Eren sees it. Once he accepts the cruelty in the world and finds beauty, he can be free.
Again, poor living conditions itself may mean one isn’t free but that is not the story’s definition of freedom. And the story is the topic at hand, not real life.
You said:
“It makes no sense, it makes no logical sense. We’re not talking about a ‘theoretical, slave to my mind’ here. We’re talking *literally slaves.* Like as in, *I can not stop doing this.* Even if I wanted to, I can’t. It’s not my mentality, it’s physical things around me that are stopping me from being able to do what I want to do. For example, Eren - ‘I want to go here. I can’t because if I do they will kill me.’ I just don’t get it I don’t understand.”
Does this sound different through a different lens?
Literally, someone can not stop doing something. And that makes them a slave.
Thematically, according to AOT (which is the topic at hand), someone can not stop doing something but that does not make them a slave. Instead it is their mentality which makes them a slave not their physical surroundings. This is the case in AOT. Not real life like the example you gave to compare to the story.
Someone can’t do something? Then accept the reality of the situation. Don’t force the negative implications of not accepting you can’t get your way unto innocent people.
Keep in mind that what Eren “wanted to do” (and was stopped from doing because of his external world) was childish.
So you “don’t understand” because you’re applying real life logic to make sense of a story. In other words, it doesn’t make sense to you because you are using your own definition of “slave” and “freedom” (stemming from real life logic) to make sense of a story which uses those terms in a way that makes no sense if looking at those terms through the wrong definitions given the context, context being AOT.
Does this make sense?
⬇️ cont’d
44:24 - 45:07 You said that School Castes does not take place in the story of AOT. Yes, it’s a different universe. But this other universe is used to explain the character of Eren. Isayama said that the characters remain the same in both universes it’s just that their environment is different, remember?
“The characters in (School Castes) have the same personality. Although the environment is different, the inner parts of them remain the same.” - Hajime Isayama
And if you’re saying this isn’t enough since it does not take place in the story, then you can look at Eren saying he’s born this way, or that he’s “just me”.
On Eren / Zeke and nature vs. nurture, you can see it as Zeke taking the glasses of his father figure whom he’d eaten, representing him adopting the (literal) lens he sees the world through.
For Eren, he is shown holding his dad’s glasses after eating him, but doesn’t wear them. He doesn’t think the way he does because of his dad like Zeke thought. Zeke thought it was because of his nurture, but it wasn’t. Then Eren said “I’m just me. I always have been.” He also said “Our father didn’t make me that way. I have been like this since birth.”
Eren says “I dunno why but, when I think about taking my freedom back, strength flows through me.” (Referring to the courage to do things he’d otherwise not be able to do). He literally said he doesn’t know why freedom is so important to him. If he knew, he could have said something like “Since my mom was eaten, thinking about gaining my freedom back gives me courage.” but he didn’t.
There’s also the way he killed the kidnappers which a normal child wouldn’t do.
Just a random thing to note is that when Rod told Kenny to go chase something else, he said he’d be bored.
47:00 - 48:35 Not necessarily that he’s just evil and wants to kill people, more specifically that he wants to *fight for freedom.*
The freedom he wants is childish, and he tries to justify it by saying it’s for his people. So he’s not justifying killing people because he wants to, he’s justifying fighting for freedom because he wants to.
1:03:15 - 1:03:29 Sending memories back has been determined.
1:05:55 - 1:06:18 It is determined that he will send memories back because that’s what he would’ve done anyway. He did it because he wanted the rumbling. It was because of his nature that the future OF sending memories back is determined. The memories he sent were the ones he sent to Grisha, and he had to do that for his goal.
1:21:13 - 1:23:34 By the time he knew they would come to stop him, it was too late. He couldn’t try to push them to join the Yeagerists now.
He can’t try to convince them in paths because he already saw it happen. Trying would be useless. When he sent messages back to them he already knew they would stop him.
He can’t change the future, why would he tell them to join him? Apologizing to Ramzi didn’t change the future. He knew it wouldn’t, it wasn’t an attempt to change the future like telling them to join him would be. I don’t understand that comparison.
1:36:15 The thing that was childish was Eren’s goal of “freedom” and the way he went about it, refusing to accept anything that wasn’t his ideal.
Eren not being able to forgive himself and accepting the price of his actions is not childish. That is not what you’re supposed to think is childish. You’re right to say it doesn’t sound childish but no one said you were wrong.
Eren accepting the price of his actions is highlighted in the grounded panel again, as it foils the freedom panel completely. He is grounded (like a flower, which represents freedom for many characters but for Eren it’s birds (corrupted)) and not in the sky. Not an ignorant child with his head in the clouds (literally), but a man who is grounded (literally), facing the reality of the destruction he caused. He is accepting the cruelty that he caused and not rejecting it like he was when he was portrayed as a child (by turning the titan smoke into clouds - delusion). That shows that this right here, “accepting the price of his actions”, is not what you are supposed to think is childish. It is the opposite. I don’t think anyone is saying you are wrong about that.
But remember that up until now was Eren really childish. It’s his conclusion, so of course characters have a “learning” conclusion (usually). So yeah, in his conclusion he won’t be childish and instead kinda learns from his childish behaviour. If that makes sense.
That part of the conclusion is the part where he learns, more of a fitting conclusion, and it’s meant to be the opposite of childish. Again, you are right to say it doesn’t look childish to you but no one said you’re wrong. When he is described as childish that is not what’s being referenced.
1:44:40 - 1:56:45 The compromise was because his friends were going to stop him. He valued his friends’ lives and that’s what he has to gain from the compromise.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t paths outside of time and space? They can’t just sit in paths because if they were to stay there for ten years, they’d come back without any time passing in the real world.
His nature is not to destroy but to search for freedom, so no his nature does not contradict his desire to protect his friends.
What the story shows us is Eren wanting to see the scenery (“freedom”) and wanting his friends to live long happy lives. Eren has said these things.
What Eren has also said is that he would’ve flattened the world if he didn’t know they’d stop him. From this we know that the reason he didn’t do it was because they came and we already know he wants them to live long happy lives. So that compromise there makes sense because of what he says in 139. Like how in 139 he also states that he knew of Mikasa’s choice which will end the curse and that it was to arrive at that moment. So we know that that was why he stopped as well. We are directly told what Eren was going for before and after the compromise.
What needs to be made more clear is that he gained all of the memories when he got full power of the founder. So the anime could hopefully show a brief moment of memories flooding in once he unlocks the full power or something?
139 does not show making his friends be seen as heroes his primary goal. Armin literally asks him if he really did it all for their sake after he said this, and he ignores the question as it’s not true.
Isayama made Eren out to be someone who cared about his friends when he said he wanted them to be regarded as heroes. This is true about Eren.
Eren is also someone who would do almost anything to achieve his freedom. Isayama then showed this, because it is also true about Eren.
These are both real aspects about Eren so what do you mean he can’t do both?
His primary objective was freedom but that doesn’t mean he values freedom more than his friends.
Attaining freedom AND protecting his friends were his primary objectives.
We knew that that scenery was important to Eren for a while.
Human nature is not a theme in Breaking Bad the same way it is for Eren. So yes saying “I don’t know why I did it” for Walter would make no thematic sense.
Eren saying I don’t know doesn’t mean he doesn’t know why he wanted to do it the way it may sound. He knows why he wanted to do it - for freedom. But why did he want freedom so bad? He doesn’t know.
People thought that when Eren said that it was stupid because how could he not know why he did it? He knows why he did it and we know he knows this. It was shown to us. The fact that people think this line is a retcon goes to show that Isayama let us know that Eren knows what his goal is and we know what his goal is: freedom.
That part is clear but what isn’t clear is that people didn’t know that the line was meant to show Eren doesn’t understand why searching for freedom is in his nature. It could be made more clear by him saying again that he’s ‘just been himself, that’s all’ in that moment? The facial expression in this scene is also made to resemble the face he made when he said “I’m just me” in 121. The resemblance should be made more clear in the anime.
Yeah he said it’s because he wanted it. What he said he doesn’t know is WHY he WANTED it.
Armin knows how much Eren cares for Mikasa and makes him spill his feelings when he mocks him saying “Mikasa ought to forget about a heartbreaker like you and find happiness elsewhere.” (‘What you did was not in her best interest yet you say it was for us. You’re the heartbreaker and she’ll be happy because of someone else not you’) “Well... she might easily find a good man...” (‘She’ll find someone else (know you love her) who’s actually good for her (you want to be with her don’t you)’). Does Armin’s face not look manipulating when he says this? By getting Eren to admit he does want to be with Mikasa he forces Eren to admit he loves her back, and if he cared about her in that way he could’ve stayed with her which is something they both would’ve wanted. That outcome would be the dream in 138, but why didn’t that come true? Because of Eren’s nature. After admitting despite doing this (apparently all for them) he really wants to live with Mikasa (which would’ve been the best for the two of them), he says why he really wanted to do this initially.
Because how could he do something all for them if they could’ve just fled? He made Eren admit he wanted that which makes it possible which then begs the question: why was it not possible then? (Freedom as his goal too)
Maybe Eren knew he can’t keep this up anymore. Plus he was going to trust everything with Armin anyway.
If Armin went about it the way you say by going “🤜 I don’t believe you tell me why you really did it!” it may not be as effective. He wants Eren to feel comfortable with telling him so this won’t work, but also pressured.
The execution of the conversation between Eren and Armin should be improved in the anime as it shouldn’t be as rushed as it was in the manga.
No, 139 does not show freedom as his secondary motivation. He says that he would’ve done it if he didn’t see them stop him. Meaning making them heroes was not the primary objective. But his primary objective being freedom was halted as he can’t kill his friends. “Freedom” still looks like his primary objective.
Sasha died before he saw all of the memories. After she died he asked what her last words were to confirm that the memory he saw was true. He did have an issue with her death.
Not sure if he knew of Hange’s death. When that happened he was making it look like they were heroes so if he let them kill him prior to Hange’s death and make it easy, they all might’ve died because the rest of the world didn’t believe them.
So we know he did it primarily for “freedom” but caring for those close to him stopped him. The 8 additional pages show that Eren failed to end the cycle of hatred like he originally would’ve possibly achieved through a full rumbling. Are you saying that the extra pages make Eren look bad for caring for others? The people he cared about were his friends and they are shown to live to old age (Mikasa) in the extra pages. It showed he succeeded in that. The result of his genocide is not supposed to look good.
lets debate live! join my discord : discord.gg/k6FaTKhX
@@euph1na bra-fucking-vo! 👏🏼
Who won the debate?
1:08:03 he answered your question right there. Even if grisha tried to not give the founder eren, it will happen anyways because it is determined. He had no choice there, he just follows the path what he saw.
This explanation is so dumb. Meine Güte wie alt bist du? Determinism gleicht nicht alle unlogischen Dinge aus. Grisha wollte eren den Titanen nicht mehr geben aber eren hat ihm etwas gezeigt, was zeke auch gesagt hat. Hacksayama hat es nie gezeigt
That literally makes no sense lmao. Grisha giving Eren the Titan is a massive plothole and will remain that way forever since the manga concluded. Kids nowadays..
@@triumphant8637 true, even zeke said he entrusted it to eren because he saw something in the future that eren shows him, that is yet to happen and eren talked about a scenery so it can’t be 131 haha. Retcon
@@meawiyaothman7872 yup, and Grisha literally fought against Eren in the final battle as well. Makes no sense why he would give him his Titan and then fight him. Straight up plothole
@@triumphant8637 ending defenders say „oh he had another weak moment because Carla died“ lol fuck off
Could you possibly respond to Just A Critic's review *cough* defense *cough* of chapter 139? He says some stuff you already kinda respond to here but some points he brings up I can't believe how he came up with them.
31:49 Don't mind me, just putting up a checkpoint from where I'll continue watching.
i think the ending abd erens character as a whole was very well written. But it just wasnt told in the best way.
if i had to describe it in one one sentece it would be "good writing, bad storytelling".
You know, my theory is not that it is that bad storytelling. I would say that Isyama intentionally made the ending that poor with informations 'cause he wanted it to be misterious. There is so much things to explain that he could write Shingeki no Kyojin once more.
The goal of what Isyama did was great., but things were off in the presentation. The time predictions needed better explanations, as did Zeke inspriring those previous shifters in paths, as did the formation of the alliance. Zeke and Armin shouting "Lend me your strength"" mirrored exactly what Eren said to Ymir. Zeke not being able to bring over Ymir to his side , but instead after being inspired by Armin, and duplicating Eren's actions to win the other shifters over was an interesting story element. But at the time it just came off as so cheesy. A single extra panel of dialog could have drastically improved the reception of that chapter.
hmm no if its rush its not good if its decent its not good.
Or “good message, bad execution”
I hope we won’t get something as rushed as this in the anime
@@euph1na Well part 2 of the final season seems too be slated too have 12 episodes. If that is the case it is too rushed and would be bad. But the consensus is that they will only be going till chapter 132 or so. Then a movie or something similar after that is expected. In which case the pacing would be perfect.
1:56:39 missed golden pun opportunity to say “but… ‘saintitchief”
Regardless of the events playing out in the end, the execution is key. The series of events will fall flat no matter how consistent if the author does not space the information out and keep it consistent.
After I finished 138 and learned that 139 was the final chapter, it was painfully obvious that the ending and epilogue did not have enough time to execute in a satisfactory way. There was too much information to deliver and too many people to receive proper endings in that time frame.
Death Note (Anime) also does this in its final episode and the final reveals are twisted and contrived and there is a lack of information about the aftermath of Light’s death or his effect on the world.
What's the problem with death notes ending? (ok it was a litte contrived, but apart from that?)
Why would we need to see the world continue? Without the death Notes the world was implied to function similar to the real world.
It is very clear in Death Note that Light was delusional. He believed that he could do good by murdering everyone he considered a criminal. He just hears about criminals in the news and kills them immediately without investigating the case at all.
The difference to AOT is that post time skip Erens motivation was complicated, weird and largely unexplained.
@@richardhauer8391 I will give you that post world state is arbitrary (Despite the fact that Light did enough damage to change that), but if you cared about the remaining characters at all, having no epilogue cliffhangers all those arcs.
The manga admittedly did not give much to work with, but the entire second half was lackluster in comparison to the first. The point though is that trying to pool the big reveal information into the final chapter usually will end up feeling contrived or BS, analogous to trying to finish an essay question within the last five minutes of a test.
@@genesisnitsua2571 Yeah, I agree. The last episode would have been better if it had more time to wrap things up.
It is some time ago that I watched it.
But still, the character arcs are mostly complete. The shinigami had his fun and declares this to be the end of his adventure with throwing death notes into the world.
Light loses his last battle with last american detective and dies.
@@richardhauer8391 Maybe Attack on Titan might have been better just cutting out 139 and just had a victory and epilogue without seeing Eren explain himself after in a similar manner then. If that were the case, him seeing his desired view of freedom and declaration that he will fight to the finish would have allowed speculation rather than dealing with the definitive answers.
@@genesisnitsua2571 Interesting idea.
I always thought that the Ymir backstory of why she allowed the titan curse to end, was unnecessary. Just beating up the Spine creature would have been enough.
Then Armin can say a last "Fuck you and now die Eren" in the Coordinate and then the story ends.
The most peace loving guy in story saying "thank you" at the end is too ambiguous.
The antagonist is someone or something who opposes the protagonist. Eren is the PROTAGONIST of the story. The fuck is Invaderzz talkn about.
I can tell the commenters did not understand the og video.
Armin told Eren when he was gassing him up to fight Annie. That he has to abandon his humanity to reach his goals, Eren did exactly that but look what armin did🤦🏻♂️
Armin wasn’t the type of character like bro ?
His whole character literally opposes eren in every way
He would not go and fight with people head on he will try to understand them and calm the fight unlike eren who will just lash at people (Reiner and berthold in s2)
Their freedoms were literally opposite
Armin cherished even the smallest of freedom he could get
While eren wanted a freedom which didn’t existed as stated in this video
@@AM17titan because he a pu$$y
53:55 isn't there a fatal flaw in reasoning? It's claimed that the Attack Titan Power is to send the user's memories to past users. Ok. But then how can Eren send the memories of the rumbling to Grisha if Eren doesn't have any memory of the rumbling yet because it hasn't happened?
According to the author of the video, it should go like this: Eren has memories of X. He sends memories of X to Grisha. Eren inherits memories of Grisha, and thus seed his own memories of X. It's kind of a loop, but for this loop to happen there should be already existing memories of X. In other words, Eren shouldn't be able to send memories he *doesn't* have yet to Grisha. And yet Eren still fully knows what the future holds, for he is talking about "that scenery" (the rumbling) in the future. So how did Eren gained that future memory? One may argue that Eren sent his memories to Grisha when he was doing the rumbling, but if Eren can send his memories at any point he wants he should be able to send his memories of his own defeat. It could be said that Eren can only send his memories back to past users when he's in contact with a royal blood shifter, which is a fair point. But then it is later explained that Eren gained future memories of his own defeat, so he did know he will be stopped. Then, why didn't he send these memories as well?
On a side note I think it's a shame that his character arc in the insurrection arc isn't mentioned at all in the video, as I think it's a pivotal point for Eren. But that's just me.
The attack titan only allows to see into the future and past of other attack titans (we don't know if it's sent memories or not it also seems to be somewhat random or linked to strong feelings) and the founder titan's power is to control memories (past, present and future memories???(maybe the timeline as well ???)) so it can technically happen but the main problem is that we have no idea of how any of those powers works nor do we know how and when Eren uses them so it's a huge guess on what makes sense and what doesn't especially when the rules are broken easily like the ackerman's being unaffected by the founder's power and Mikasa seeing this weird memory before killing Eren, it's inconsistent and makes no sense especially when Zeke died just a few moments before that, meaning that Eren didn't even had the founding power to begin with because of the rules for activating the founder's power with royal blood, also Eren saving bertholt by sending dina towards his house which means he can change the past????? too many nonesense either Eren has a power that makes him able to change litterally everything, or he doesn't have the power to change anything at all but the story seem to go both ways which makes absolutely no sense....
Grisha is smarter than Eren but he killed the royal family and himself going against his own morality, while perfectly knowing what was going to happen, how does that make any sense from the perspective of Grisha and why would he even consider giving the attack titan to Eren while perfectly knowing what was going to happen, i would've agreed if he was just being manipulated by Eren but it didn't seem to be the case this is also very illogical....
seems like Isayama got lost in his own story telling and didn't even know what he was telling in the end.....
Because the memories of the rumbling were sent later. Same reason Grisha said “things aren’t going to go your way, Zeke”. Same reason Eren was looking forward to “That scenery”. Those are memories from Eren a bit later, when he already had acquired the Founder and started the Rumbling.
On a related note, Grisha asked Zeke to stop Eren because he didn’t know if the Rumbling would be completed. Hence, Eren didn’t know either until he got access to the full power of the founder.
1. The reason grisha gave his titan to eren was because after his meeting with zeke, grisha received memories of carla getting eaten. And as grisha is a very emotional character, he was fueled by revenge and gave his titan to eren.
2. Eren apologizing to Ramzi was purely to get erens feelings of his chest. This is obvious when you realize eren wasnt using a language that Ramzi could understand but instead used the eldian language which eren knew Ramzi didnt understand. As such, eren didnt try to convince his friends to join the jeagerists for two reasons
A. He saw the future and knows that he cant change it.
B. Even if he didnt see the future, he knows they would never agree to let humanity get wiped out
I’m an ending hater but your first point is somewhat incorrect. Grisha did not receive memories of Carla’s death. In Memories of the Future, he asked Eren why won’t he show him everything, when the walls fall, and whether Carla is safe after it happens. It’s Carla’s actual death that pushes Grisha to give Eren the Founding and Attack Titans. He changes his mind when Carla eventually dies, which might explain why Eren didn’t show Grisha in the first place.
@@Silver-iix oh yeah totally forgot that grisha can get info by witnessing events mb. But the point still stands since he gave the titan to eren after Carla died
I think you have to see the things said in the video not as the final definitive reason and complete understanding of Eren and his actions, but as part of it. Like it was said once, it was in Eren's nature that he would want to destroy the unfree world and in a certain way he was a "slave" to that desire, but it wasn't the only thing that made him do the things he did, the world would attack them and there was nothing else he could do to save his friends if not to use the rumbling, partially or fully. And that's whats so great about his writing, how so many things come together to shape him as a character, his philosophy, the situation of the world he was born in and his experiences. That video clarifies and focuses on one side of Eren's character and what makes him good, and you should see it as a part of Eren not all of his character and if you let that part join the whole, he becomes a much more interesting character.
so then what's the whole? cause I gotta admit I don't like this part of his character at all.
@@saintitchief I made this comment because of what you had said at around 13:30 and it felt like you were taking what was being said in the video as the only reason Eren does what he does and thinks the way he does when actually it's a part of his character and the different layers that he has, but it looked like you were trying to take what was being said in the video and put it against the things you already know about the series and not trying to see more of the character.
@@yagoldt6195 The moment Eren got to the ocean he could care less about what he could see.
After reading Sonic comics by Jolly Jack I can never see your pfp in normal way ever again.
Anyway, good video, always nice to hear your thoughts on topic
Yeah I gotta disagree with what the dude in the video is saying, not you. The vision of freedom was for the Eldian people and their freedom from being titans and thus freedom in the world since the world no longer had to fear them. Eren definitely knew that he would die because he chose to die.
There are two conditions to have Eldians gain freedom and removing the curse of the titans was just the first. The second is, like Tybur said, the world needs to see Eldians in the zone as victims of an unforeseen attack. In the same way, the Eldians of the walls needed to be seen as betrayed and on the defense from Eren Yaeger who sought the destruction of the world and the sterilization of their race. By making himself that enemy, he knew he would have to die. The same way that Willie knew for his plan to work he would also have to die.
Edit: "You know what I despise more than anything? People who aren't free."
This was absolutely a double meaning. He didn't mean that he has disdain for people who weren't free. It meant that he pitied them and wanted that freedom for them, even if it meant throwing his own freedom away. Which is the same sacrifice and true freedom that Kenny also attained. He gave up on his personal dream for the larger world.
If the author intended for individual interpretation on the ending, then that's fine. But if people are confused by a complete conclusion that the author didn't mean to be ambiguous, then that's bad writing.
agreed.
Perfect timing. i was just going to watch his vid today, but now I'll just watch your reaction to it. I get his arguments with your thoughts.
Just so people understand determinsm is NOT predeterminism.
Predeterminism means when you were born an almight power had your life mapped out for you, meaning no free will.
Determinism means your future is determined by your choices, by virtue of your innate nature. Meaning if you are a perfect predictor(This means you see the future, and every choice leading up to it) you can change your future.
Eren became a perfect predictor once he unlocked the founder fully. This means Eren's choices were his choices he could've done things differently but chose not to.
Remember Isayama has not confirmed this world is determinstic, so as far as I'm concerned Isayama f++ked up.
That Breaking Bad comparison doesn’t work. It would only make sense If Walter White experimented with drugs since he was a kid, going all out in the meth business later, with his family being the excuse. But Walter chose the path of breaking bad, after his diagnosis, when he was a good person before. While Eren has been this way from the start. It’s only the early circumstance of having no knowledge and Titans being literal monsters that made Eren look tame and morally good in comparison. It’s only later when we learn how Eren would act being confronted with the morally grey reality. Eren answered Armins question the same as Walt did, because they both wanted to do that for themselves, but the question of Armin goes deeper than breaking bad. While it’s clear that Walt wanted to do bad stuff because of the thrill and excitement it’s still open to interpretation why Eren was "bad" since he was little. Was it fate, his future self influencing him, Grisha telling him that he’s free or simply the nature that he was born with? He doesn’t know and never will, which is the point.
exactly, its open to interpretation yet Invaderrz says its not. Its his nature.