@@whymindsetmatters IDK what kind of math and labor costs you are factoring, but I have never once made it pencil out. A typical wall without any siding is right around 3 bucks per wall square foot. That includes dry wall, studs, insulation, and sheathing. 1 square foot of 6 inch thick concrete wall is about $2.70. That is just concrete. That is not the ICF, drywall, or concrete truck. So unless you are paying your carpenters in gold bricks or they work incredibly slow, IDK how you are even coming close.
@@tristanjones7735 I should've been clear. Most people use ICF for below grade basements, not the entire home. Although there are entire homes framed with it?
I built our home 9 years ago with LOGIX ICF's. It was my first use of ICFs and I didn''t pick any easy design. If you're familiar with DELTEC homes, That is what we built. It consists of 17 sides, each 8'. It took me about a week to stack the house. The more conventional attached garage took an afternoon. I built a giant miter box out of plywood to cut the angles on the ICFs as virtually every block of the foundation was cut on a miter.
A very important point - during the pour, use a 90 degree elbow at the end of the concrete hose - that slows down the flow of concrete , so there's no hydro impact. Often overlooked, this is what frequently blows out the ICFs. Imagine steady stream of (very heavy and not compressible) concrete coming down a vertical run of 20-30 feet pipe/hose, with gravity accelerating it to pretty decent speed. And then it hits the proverbial wall, has to come to complete stop, that creates very high pressure. Do pours in 2-3 feet high "bands", having the hose travel the perimeter of structure as many times as required, as opposed to pouring full height in one spot and then moving on to next. Less head pressure and concrete has a change to harden just a bit, further reducing the pressure.
Steve would be proud of my icf design. I have pango wrap under my footers and basement floor and the transitions on the outside to a rubber sealant that goes up my icf walls and then transitions to sharkskin on the roof. So I can draw a line all the way around my icf home without lifting my pencils for a continuous air barrier. My blower door score should be amazing 😂
@@uog293 Dead simple. lotsof youtube videos on it. Use either a battery chainsaw or a hotknife to route chases and remove insulation fro electrical boxes. Dryway is attached directly onto the blocks on the inside. Stucco can be applied directly to ICF blocks, most other siding should have traditional 1 by strapping to allow for draingage and longer life of siding. Strapping is applied directly onto the ICF blocks. Window/door openings are sealled exactly the same as traditional (modern) flashing techniques. No need for vapor barrier or WRB.
Built our current house 20 years ago with Logix for the basement and have loved it ever since. My wife and I are building a 1500 sq ft greenhouse next year and plan to build the in ground part with Logix as a DIY project. Their training is very accessible.
More people need to build with this product. Why do we use sticks and paper? Everything standing from our past is built with stone and concrete! This is cool
Sustainability being a reason. Also, with proper care (waterproofing, screws, bolts, heavier dimensions for the lumber, like in germany/switzerland/austria/scandinavia) wooden homes can last 100s of years too.
We have designed homes with this brand of ICF foundations and then drop a prefab modular unit on top, works great and fast. Cost is irrelevant when you factor everything that goes into building a home. Great system.
Yo why do white people bring up chicago like it's the only dangerous place in all of America? Yall ever been to a trailer park in Minnesota 😂? All poor neighborhoods in every inch of the globe are extremely violent.... why? Because poverty causes desperation and desperation causes fighting for resources which directly leads to violence which creates a cycle of extremely traumatized and decencitized and mentally ill children that are bound to go down the same path but worse
I have bewen interested in ICF for a while but I was told that areas where termite are a threat to homes ICF is not good to use due to not being able to get termite protection as they have bored into the forms and cant be delt with. As such the termite companies will not insure or guarantee the protection. I would love to get get some feedback on your thoughts regarding termites.
The foam is not structural like a traditional wood frame home. You're in trouble with a traditional wood frame home as wood is structural. So right out of the gate you will always be in better shape building ICF in termite areas. Foam is not food to termites and has no sustaining value to them but wood does and is food to termites.
Can you get a steadycam, or at least a gimbal for your camera operator? I hate getting seasick in my own bed, watching YT. The segment around 14:30 was terrible for that.
With finished ICF construction, how are boxes, cabling, and pipe added years later as needs change? Seems like a finished ICF wall would be very remodel UNfriendly. Do people build a 2x4 stud wall interior to the ICF wall so that the wall can accommodate change through the decades?
can someone talk about termites and other insects that would burrow into the EPS or Graphite Polystyrene forms. I have heard that some insurance companies would not insure a house that used ICFs below grade
@@ArnieD17 in the 80's my sister had a basement built with ICFs . The termites burrowed in and eventually made it to the house. not a second hand story. I was just interested to know if ICF bug prevention has improvement.
I built a 2 story ICF fully off-grid House 5 years ago using Nudura ICF forms. Almost no difference between this and Nudura. I can't comment on price difference as I bought all my ICF before "Covid19". It's easy to build airtight homes with ICF. You can heat our house of 3000 sq ft with a hair dryer! Well almost. We only have a 3 ton heat pump with an ERV.
ICF blocks are great. I think the 16" block height is a little limiting in that wall height only work out evenly in 4' multiples. If you are doing and ICF house from footer to rafter, it is harder to get custom wall heights without cutting blocks. I think a 12" block height would be more flexible in design options. One think not mentioned with ICF construction, is that you get a very air tight house without much effort.
Great points, it's always advantageous from a labour and material standpoint to design to the height of whatever ICF form you're using, but it's even more important to get the end result that yourself or the client wants. Element ICF has convenient embossed cut lines at 4", 8", and 12" to make cutting to those heights quick and easy. Being a fully reversible form the off cuts can be reused. -- Jay from AMC Foam
@@amcfoamtechI was just mentioning to the guy who thought he would like a 12 inch block that it exists. yes you're absolutely correct. I actually prefer the 16 inch height. And ripping one course if necessary takes no time at all. Much faster in my opinion stacking a larger quantity of 12 inch blocks. I have experience with amvic and fox , however the new element block seems to have every feature one can ask for and priced well also. I'll know once I use it but should be a game changer for the industry. I've already contacted my rep and have a project upcoming using element.
Real easy i just hot knife in a groove for the electrical and the pluming where I had to penetrate the wall I just put a pvc pipe the wall before the pour.
Did an entire house out of this last year, stacked all of the block myself and dont think I would ever build a house any other way. House is extremely efficient to heat or cool and very quiet. Cost wise not much more than stick built because of all of the labor savings in the walls. Look it over I think you will like it!
We're huge fans of ICF, love Nudura but can see how this line is really giving them a run for the money. One quick point about the Logic Bucks. While plywood/OSB is commonly used to strengthen parts of the block for a pour, in the case with Logix/Element bucks, you simply screw through the foam to fasten them in, no need to strap with wood on the exterior for that product. You will have to have some interior bracing though. If you plan correctly, you can keep some bracing in place to attach a nail flange onto if you're going to recess windows in.
There was some testing a while back that showed inset windows screwed directly into the concrete core provided the strongest seal against wind and rain. No buck needed there too, but some detailing is needed to make sure it slopes correctly and everything.
@@rafflesmaos I'd love to know how that could be done effectively without pre-drilling each tapcon screw.I'd prefer to use some 1" LVL furring strips to attach to.
@@SchondorfEnt Yeah there's not much to do about escaping drilling the concrete, but that's what they've been doing in Europe for a while now. Many of their buildings are concrete and brick, and they mostly use the inset windows. I just happen to really dislike having dead tree carcass in the building envelope, so I'd personally rather pay a bit more towards the extra labor of installing the windows, hehe.
@@rafflesmaos Perhaps, but a fluid applied waterproofed LVL is nothing short of a bomber detail for attaching a window flange to. I hear you, if $ was endless sure
Matt I am diy building a 48’ tall 13k sqft multigenerational home. I am currently 37’ above grade. I only have 11’ more to go 🎊. I would love for you to come do an episode on how a person can diy the shell in their spare time. Or send Stephanie down from salt lake. I am only 45 minutes south of her.
Inspired... I am doing the same thing just slightly smaller 9000. I'm DIY too. Even dug my own Sitework. I'm framing my footers as we speak. Would love to connect if you're open to it. I'm in Charlotte SC market. Nice job🎉
Do they offer thicker foam for a higher R value? How does it interact with the footings? What does the installation of the utilities inside look like? Can you make a roof from this material?
The effective "R VAlue" of these walls is a lot closer to R50 because of the thermal mass of the concrete. Just like the effective R value of a 2x6 stud wall with R22 insulation is a lot closer to R15. That said they offer thicker foam that can be placed on either the inside or outside when you use the site built product. Other manufacturers simply offer blocks with 4" or thicker foam on one side.
No mention of how many feet vertically can be done in s single pour. Is the bracing more or less extensive than wood forms? Is it rented? Which technique ties them down to the footing for the pour? The installer brochure that I received off their website is just that a few pages of product pictures without the details.
Not sure on the max height in one pour, but they typically go one story at a time. You stack a story, put up rental bracing (look up icf bracing), then it's poured in lifts from above, typically 2-3 feet at a time, using either a pump hose or a boom truck. After each lift is poured it's optimally vibrated from the inside with a long pencil concrete vibrator. It continues on with multiple small lifts until the wall is filled. You then run floor joists and decking, stack the next story, brace it and continue. To anchor the wall correctly your footing has be prepared in advance. L shaped rebar called verticals are placed in the footer before the footer pour and they extend out of the footer about 30". There's a document called the prescriptive method of ICF that will tell you vertical spacing and rebar type based on soil type and backfill height of a basement. ICF is easy from a practical perspective but you need to closely follow the engineering tables for wall thickness and rebar requirements below grade and rebar spacing and thickness above grade for wind speeds against the structure and roof loads on lentils. Perfectly doable DIY though, just make sure you obsess over the details, especially rebar reinforcement, water proofing, sleeving all penetrations in advance, pre-inserting L bolts for ledgers, etc.
The biggest shortcoming of this system, of which are few, is addressing termite prevention/detection, a major limitation in termite prone zones. Otherwise, it's an almost incomparable wall sysrem impervious to most natural elements.
Technically hat's not a shortcoming of ICF, in fact termites can't even compromise ICF since the core is concrete. Yes detection can be a problem, but prevention is much the same as anything else. Termite mesh, termite parge coat, chemical spraying, etc. Also eliminating any structural wood internally is also an option (steel joist or concrete floors, etc)
@@rafflesmaos .The complaint that I hear from code officials, rightly or wrongly, is the difficulty in finding any evidence of the mud tunnels used to bridge obstructions that are the classic form of detection. I get that one can pretreat the area with anti-termite treatments, but it's added cost that potentially has a limited life. The new normal today is to install bait traps to know if there is any local insect activity, but the contractors then examine the concrete/blok foudation walls for evidence of tunneling activity. The ICFform buries that inside the wall. I'm beside myself on this because I earnestly believe that ICF construction is the best of breed construction innovation since the use of wood. I'm too old to fully benefit from this technology but, if I were to add room onto my existing house it would use this tech and double it floor and ceiling as a storm shelter.
@@rooscow Yeah I mean realistically there's a number of ways to deal with it. For example Nudura has a treatment they can add to the foam itself, or they have a detail where there's an embedded strip of plywood that can be checked, etc. But even if all protection methods fail, it can only ever be an issue if there's a food source for them inside the building and they manage to tunnel far enough to get to it. So if there's no path through the concrete, they can't get inside for example. If there's no wood structures inside (concrete floors etc), then they can't feed off of anything. And so on.
Termites are easily mitigated with a variety of products; One of which we recommend often, and has been tested for termite prevention is Soprema's Colphene ICF membrane!
I wonder if you could do a spray foam core in some applications (instead of concrete). Could be pretty strong with vertical reinforcement. Super light, all insulation.
How do l deal with rodents eating the polystyrene panels? I’ve heard of instances in the Caribbean where they use ICF and they ended up with a rodent infestation. You can’t put any metal mesh on it until after you’ve poured the wall and remove the shoring. Until that time, rodents could burrow their way into the ICF and either stay there or lay eggs.
@@whymindsetmatters Hey there! We actually have three GPS insulation product lines including Chrome GPS (unfaced GPS sheets), HALO rigid insulation including Subterra, Interra, and Exterra (faced GPS for below grade, interior, and exterior applications), and GPS ICF. LOGIX ICF Platinum was our first series of GPS based insulated concrete forms, but it will be an available option with Element ICF as well. -- Jay from AMC Foam
Built my 2000 square foot house in 2006 with the entire first floor ICF. Even when it is -25 degrees outside without heating never goes below 37 inside.
Using "R Values" with ICF is underselling the product. The thermal mass MUST be taken into account with this product. In most cases, the "effective" value is a lot closer to R50 then the measured R24. Build a R24 stud wall and a R24 ICF wall and the difference in "cost of living" is significant...especially in northnern climates.
I've got a place in NE texas, has a nice hill that I've been thinking of building a 14-16ft tall 40x80/50x100 arena(to catch water for house use), & build a 2story house under the arena on one end w/a deck that sticks out,&shop on bottom. I want the house in-between the 2 post on the end so concrete wall on bottom floor. The house end of hill drops 15ft so w/a 2 story I can help prevent erosion on path from house. Slight downhill from shop would be better. Hilly area of Texas & there are dirt terraces on each road/path. Would this foam work against dirt/What would you put on the foam to run water off&down(house will be mostly protected by arena from water)? I've thot about wood foundation as road/path wouldn't carry a concrete truck at the moment. I know they use wood foundations in Minnesota & out of the way places that can't get a concrete truck into. Concrete wall could actually be away from house 5ft or 2 walls(5&10ft away), & use top of wall(s)(&ground outside for supporting 2nd&3rd story deck(s)).....I'm only explaining plans for a small part of the 106 acres(2-3 rows of pecans n&s along sw border, rows of grapes/muscadines, southside of hill planted in coastal or native grasses so to keep miles of view south clear, north side of hill is more vertical-plant different colored crepe myrtles for view from road&secret meandering path down hill w/water falls(one huge one or several down to a pond that is already built(above gulley-i think they built it as they were mining for clay f/road terraces), etc. So many ideas! I'm looking for suggestions & if you want to make a video of the place/hill/progress, great. Thx!
@LogixBrands thx. This 106 acre place is amazing. Spring west to east between road&hill with slow gulley(thinking several lined squared ponds feeding each other-can use pump to recirculate) w/2-3acre pond at bottom just above wwc, wet weather creek along n/s along east boundary for pumped water to ponds&irrigation f/pecans, great views north&east&south&sw, several pond sites(thinking 50-60ft drop from deck into pond would be great place for a zipline). I want to keep the hill view(3story w/one&half stories cut into hill with deck(s) for views. I'm always searching for ideas. The arena/large roof actually, for water&solar(?) would actually be hidden 300yds from road by pines except for end&house&decks. Want a office/study up high for view(study'study'study :) Jump off deck outside of study&living room for zipline. I have a fb page for the place but won't post unless asked. Just a bunch of ideas(slowly coming together). House doesn't have to be huge, just tall for views&deck. Thx for your yt vids!
I am building my personal icf home with geothermal heating and cooling and i-span steel floor joist system in colorado. Its 8500sqft interior conditioned space + 250sqft sunroom area + 2400sqft 5-car garage + 1300 sqft under garage tool shop. Its 35' with basement, mainlevel and upper level without roof. So far i am happy with construction part, rest i will know more about efficiency when its enclosed. But i am using nadura icf, seems like element icf picked the nubs and ratcheting system from nadura. Good thing i seen in element icf is you can cut every 4" without cutting the plastic.
This sounds like a great project I use Nudura myself and love it, using geothermal heat pumps is great, based on the size of your project and the technicalities of geothermal, make sure your designer has the best source and calculations are double checked, because that size project and the location of openings will be key, the ICF will be fine, it’s the heating/cooling zones throughout the house that can be tricky to nail
Did I just miss the info or can this be coated with something to protect it. I know various types of siding can be attached. What if someone doesn't want typical siding, like an exposed basement wall on a walkout basement?
Great question, ICF construction can be finished with virtually any type of interior or exterior finishes that a lumber or steel framed building can be. Acrylic or cementitious stucco, EIFS, vertical siding, horizontal siding, stone, full brick or thin veneer, panelized systems like ACM, the list goes on... your local ICF manufacturer rep can help you out to find the best way to achieve your desired finish! -- Jay from AMC Foam
We typically recommend 3'-4' lifts. Higher slump concrete mixes or SCC usually requires a slower pour rate or shorter lifts. ICF contractor experience comes into play here, there are some do's and don't's that we help train ICF contractors on in our onsite and online training! -- Jay from AMC Foam
Current plan for my little house (once I find the right location) is to have the basement in ICF and the ground floor in SIP with a nice thick SIP cap of a roof.
Make sure to read the insurance contract first. Because a lot of insurance companies will resfuse to pay out for termite damage if the foundation is made with ICF. seems to be happening more and more .....
Why not do ICF from the footer to the rafter? SIPs have the same issue with ease of renovation as ICFs do. I agree with you on the use of SIP roof panels.
@@tombogaert1015 Curious. Where are the termites coming from? If ICF basement has concrete floor and walls in foam, are they eating the concrete? I have an ICF building and they would have to get to the LVL joists for first bite of wood. Would think the insurance benefit would be other way around. No walls or foundation to mess with to repair.
just finished drying in an ICF house with my dad in Northern Maine. Walkout basement and first floor all ICF. The only issue we're having is finding a 11.5" wide door sill plate.
About a year ago, yall put out a video with details about the inflation reduction act. I, like you, live in Texas and as far as I know, there is still no way to take advantage of any of those programs. Do you have any idea what the status is on that those programs? It so, would love to see a new video on it!
Hey there, we've had GPS (graphite polystyrene) as an available option in our LOGIX ICF line up for many years called LOGIX ICF Platinum series. It will also be available as an option in Element ICF! -- Jay from AMC Foam
cost and it really is more work than just stacking 'legos' needed items-- bracing, staging for the pour, knowledge/experience, more steel needed , etc.... but the concept does make sense.
I think it’s exposure Because I’ve done many projects with it and it cost about the same when you factor in the smaller crew (labor cost and skilled trades) fewer connections, lighter workload (foam is light and the pump truck does the heavy pour), easier and faster than pour in place, less room for error than framing, bracing isn’t as difficult as pour in place because the 5+ inch of eps makes bracing easier because it’s more about balancing the vertical wall after properly locking in the base to footing, I use a system that is near full-proof Ensuring the top of the wall is plumb, level and straight is the trickiest part, but with the right equipment or skill it can be done That’s the part people screw up the most and it’s very hard to fix or nearly impossible to correct
@@koriifaloju2051 I wish more people would do it, as well as build firms. It was really painful for me to find a contractor experienced with it, and I still have to do a lot of legwork coordinating between the architect, civil and the contractor. Meanwhile companies like toll brothers churn out cookie cutter homes that start falling apart after a few years.
Is the GPS foam also termite resistant? I'll be looking forward to seeing that used for the Element system! Hopefully they'll be out by the time I want to start building my forever home in a year or two.
They can, though there are products that insert flashing into the blocks to stop termite tunneling. Also, if you don't have any exterior wood near the ground, there is no incentive for them to tunnel through the foam since it is not edible.
Are ICF basements a thing? Edit: Matt's past videos on ICF (that I've seen) were about building the external house walls from ICF, which is why I didn't realize that was meant for below grade walls until they mentioned it much later in the video.
Why would you work to the middle from 2 corners and create a vertical seam? wouldnt working from one corner to another make more sense? keeping the stagger throughout the build?
20 years ago I trimmed an apartment built with ICFs. 6” high maple baseboard that they left stacked Willy-nilly in the garage in the humid summer. Many boards were bowed like mad and the nailers in the icf’s could not hold that maple. Total nightmare. Turned me off icf’s but still planning to use them for my own build.
I am diy building a 48’ tall ice home and my tools for the walls are a rebar bender/cutter, a foam gun, screw gun, skill saw, drywall saw and of course the bracing. I only have 11’ more to go and I have straight walls 😊
They make ICCFs too! It's ICF, except it's made of recycled Styrofoam (from coolers, packing Styrofoam, etc...) so it helps keep those hard-to-recycle plastics out of the landfills while also sometimes using less concrete, which reduces carbon emissions
In my career I ended up using several different brands of ICF. I finally ended up using Logix and never wanted to use any other after that. They have an extensive product line and after watching this video it appears that they have continued to be innovating. The lock down aspect is huge (no more floating corners or joint separation during placement) in my opinion. I still don’t know if I’m sold on the door/window buck system but it does look more innovative than any I have seen to date.
Love the idea of ICF but as I do the math there is no way to get cost down as you need to finish i side and outside and that adds subs and significant cost. Looking to build home in south Florida on stilts, huge cost savings if I go concrete block with rebar and pour columns with concrete then foam on empty columns I can go external conduit for electrical and not paint or finish interior or exterior of walls. Will price out around 5 dollars per square foot installed as block in Florida is cheap w tons of labor who know how to handle. Avg temp delta in Florida while we will be there is virtually zero so insulation is not a factor, just need cheap and storm proof winter home
This channel is nothing but ads anymore. I miss the days when you consistently showed construction content. Even the videos you shoot on building sites wind up being ads for products rather than showing high performance building techniques in detail like you use to.
He’s literally showcasing new products and innovations that can and have changed industry standards. Also everyone needs to eat. What’s the problem again?
It’s not carrying water; it’s common sense. And why the “calm down” comment? @dlg5485 had zero snark in his comment unlike you. There’s already too much of that on social media and it’s usually so unnecessary and uncalled for. We’re all learning here hopefully.
You barely touched on: 1. how DIY friendly this really is. Wife and I built our own, only contracted the pours, hanging the trusses(crane day), metal roofing and drywall. 2000 sq/ft full daylight basement. It went VERY FAST! 2. How thermally stable the finished house can be with the CC mass putting the inside temp out of phase with the outside temp variations. My house varies perhaps 3 degrees throughout the day using low mass radiant heat(warmboard) and a relatively small boiler. Its the most quiet and comfortable building I have ever stayed in…
Great video. I would be careful with putting carbon (graphene, graphit, carbon nanotubes, etc.) into a house. It has been proposed that some of the nano- reinforcements might have similar properties as asbestos. I mean, It's difficult to get a dangerous as asbestos but if I'm building I'm building with normal styrofoam
situationally dependent. they have been troublesome for us on one off archi driven customs with embeds, captured joists, moment frame anchoring. we prefer forms and we will gladly waterproof, rigid tape and matrix once the forms are stripped plus we have lots of requests for perfect above ground concrete andvthe transition is a pain.
I am in Utah and we had 1” hail recently. My home is under construction and it got some dents but did just fine. But yes I will be putting siding on the outside of it when I am done.
You can finish ICF structures with the same weather resilient finishes that you would any other type of building. The difference with ICF is how much more disaster resilient a concrete structure is overall compared to wood, steel, SIP, and many other types of structures... -- Jay from AMC Foam
@@amcfoamtech You forgot the exclamation point at the end of your response! 😂 Just messing with you; I appreciate all the responses you’ve provided to questions. And your enthusiasm!!
4 hours fire rating for a structural concrete wall is rather low. that’s without considering the repercussions of the foam material outside which would be in contact with the fire first.. foam tends to set of a toxic smoke that’s hazardous for your eyes and lungs. Foam also melts on a fire and it sticks to everything and doesn’t come off at all. Plenty of cases of fires in night clubs with foam ceilings and people get killed burned alive because the foam makes a thick smoke that blinds people and makes difficult to breathe and the melting foam lands on them it sticks to their bodies at hundreds of degrees and burns until cooled off. The chemicals in the smoke often sticking to internal tissue for a very long time causing prolonged health damage and lower quality of life, conditions such as breathing issues, lost of sight or lung cancer. The reinforced concrete certainly is decent for safety and structural strength but I do not think it’s prudent to consider icf safer or better for fires than other materials considering it’s attached to a hazardous material. Foam most of the time isn’t dangerous but any time that foam is forced to chance status (liquid, gaseous, solid) it transformes from inert to reactive (chances it’s chemical composition to something unstable that’s realising energy and turning into something else.
I like the general idea of ICF, but I don't like having the foam on the outside of the wall, especially in an area that has a problem with termites or ants as they can make nests inside the foam. I would much rather have a concrete surface on at least the outside of the wall with foam in the center and perhaps the interior side of the wall. Any chance we could see a removable exterior form as part of the site assembled kits?
@@danscott6454 Yeah, I was actually thinking about a wall assembly that had The Perfect Block in the center with 2-3 inches of concrete on either side of the blocks using traditional removable forms with fiberglass form ties so you don't have the thermal bridging of metal form ties. I also like the spider tie system, but I don't know if you can put as much insulation in as I would like, and the lack of information on their website and any recent videos here on UA-cam makes me wonder if they are still in business.
Some of the companies make a bug shield that is inserted between two courses around the perimeter. It's a thin strip of metal that will block the burrowers.
It's actually the other way around, you want concrete to be closer to the inside, because that's where all the thermal mass is. The more thermal mass on the inside, the more comfortable the house will be without wild temperature swings.
In building my new house in Florida, I looked seriously at doing ICF. What stopped me was the $10,000 in braces I was either going to have to buy, or go 2 hours to Orlando to rent the braces (also not cheap) and eventually just stayed with block which Huleo and his gang can stack cheaper and quicker.
interesting reasoning... the labor/time involved in laying block, dealing with window/door openings, all the steps needed to insulate it, hassles of running MEP & penetrations, pain with attaching walls/finishes/siding/cabinets/etc, living with all that thermal bridging, and still not have the strength or thermal mass or continuous vapor/airtight envelope? some ICF bracing can even use the sticks you'll re-use for interior walls anyway. paid $2800 for my used bracing, and it'll be sellable for the same once i'm done with it. couple days stacking/bracing, one pour day for FastFoot up to roofline & slab... doesn't get any quicker.
It's only important below grade. Above grade it doesn't really need to be waterproofed as the siding is usually sufficient, but some people do foam compatible spray on waterproofing above grade just in case. EPS doesn't rot like wood, and even retains some insulative properties when wet.
I helped my dad build an ICF house 15 years ago. We did hire a group familar with ICF to do most of the form work. ICF sounds easy, but the reality is when you pour concrete - you can blow out walls and spill concrete everywhere when it is not properly supported on both sides. Zero mention of this issue -- as I think it is the number one issue holding back ICF construction.
Hi Jonathan, blow outs are very rare with the correct installation processes. Because of the smaller modular size of ICF forms compared to larger panel forms, when blow outs do occur in ICF construction they are usually significantly smaller than the blow outs that can occur in panel form systems. We offer free online, in-person, and on-site ICF installer training to ensure folks know how to set themselves up for a successful concrete placement! Did you and your Dad have any blow outs on your ICF project? -- Jay from AMC Foam
@@amcfoamtech No, we did not experience a blow out. ICF is great when done right. I just don’t remember at any point in the video where bracing was mentioned or how to brace correctly.
Imagine ICF, but geopolymer concrete with biochar aggregate. Strong, hard shell, thinner than ICF to reduce weight, and net GWP negative. More economical than ICF. R-0.2 to R-0.5. Slightly heavier than ICF, but then ICF seems too light sometimes, liable to blow around the job site on windy days. Biochar concrete is still up to 15% lighter than concrete for the same strength when prefab to hit optimum strength at 55 degrees C (131 F) for 28 hours on the production line. Fill the 6" gap with hempcrete, for equal R-value to ICF, plastic free.
I'm interested in ICF construction but I don't want my house to be made out of fly ash. Could you really trust your contractor to pour concrete made with ordinary portland cement without added fly ash, and for that matter, trust the ready mix company to actually honor the request and deliver it?
all the manufacturers of ICF products say you don't need a vapour barrier. That is incorrect. Ask any ICF manufacturer if you need to waterproof their ICF when used for a basement foundation and every one will say absolutely yes you must waterproof the ICF foundation wall.. ie is is not water tight. Well guys there is the answer.. if the ICF product is not watertight and needs waterproofing, then the ICF is certainly not water vapour tight. Check any of the written instructions for the ICF they all say you need to waterproof it, ie it is not waterproof/water tight.. and as such that means it is certainly not water vapour proof / vapour tight.
Maximum R Value depends on the given form and manufacturer. There's some forms that allow basically any R value you want. Generally speaking ICF will be far more efficient than stick built, doesn't need any fussy air sealing detailing work, and can be used to build passive as well as net zero houses. It's up to the owner to figure out what R value they want to aim for, then pick a form, keeping in mind that even if a wood wall and ICF wall have the same R Value, ICF will still be better due to the thermal mass involved.
This is simply not true! Termites are easily controlled and mitigated with a variety of products. ICF does not contain any organic food materials- So your only threat is pests tunneling the foam not actually feeding from anything. Soprema's Colphene ICF membrane is one of our most recommended product!
Concrete filled block with exterior polystyrene and stucco is a much better system. Insulating the interior space is dumb. You block the advantage of thermal mass and the temperature stability it provides.
Please please please more ICF videos. I am losing my mind!
Is that username a Gundam reference? 👀 -- Jay from AMC Foam
Give our social media accounts a follow! We are posting new content regularly and showing off jobsites using the new system.
Finally something that's not making homes out of paper! ICF just needs to come down in prices
Still pencils out when you consider the time and labor costs savings.
@@whymindsetmatters IDK what kind of math and labor costs you are factoring, but I have never once made it pencil out. A typical wall without any siding is right around 3 bucks per wall square foot. That includes dry wall, studs, insulation, and sheathing. 1 square foot of 6 inch thick concrete wall is about $2.70. That is just concrete. That is not the ICF, drywall, or concrete truck. So unless you are paying your carpenters in gold bricks or they work incredibly slow, IDK how you are even coming close.
@@tristanjones7735 I should've been clear. Most people use ICF for below grade basements, not the entire home. Although there are entire homes framed with it?
I am going 48’ tall. And because I am doing it diy it isn’t that expensive. I only have 11’ more to stack 🎉
@@tristanjones7735At a price of $110/ yd the cost for concrete is $2/sq ft for a 6” core.
I built our home 9 years ago with LOGIX ICF's. It was my first use of ICFs and I didn''t pick any easy design. If you're familiar with DELTEC homes, That is what we built. It consists of 17 sides, each 8'. It took me about a week to stack the house. The more conventional attached garage took an afternoon. I built a giant miter box out of plywood to cut the angles on the ICFs as virtually every block of the foundation was cut on a miter.
Very cool, what do you think of ICF having lived in your home for 9 years now? -- Jay from AMC Foam
Great to see the ICF awareness.
And Logix is a cool innovative brand 👍🏻
A very important point - during the pour, use a 90 degree elbow at the end of the concrete hose - that slows down the flow of concrete , so there's no hydro impact. Often overlooked, this is what frequently blows out the ICFs. Imagine steady stream of (very heavy and not compressible) concrete coming down a vertical run of 20-30 feet pipe/hose, with gravity accelerating it to pretty decent speed. And then it hits the proverbial wall, has to come to complete stop, that creates very high pressure.
Do pours in 2-3 feet high "bands", having the hose travel the perimeter of structure as many times as required, as opposed to pouring full height in one spot and then moving on to next. Less head pressure and concrete has a change to harden just a bit, further reducing the pressure.
First saw ICF mid 90s, basement to roof build. Energy efficiency was amazing.
Steve would be proud of my icf design. I have pango wrap under my footers and basement floor and the transitions on the outside to a rubber sealant that goes up my icf walls and then transitions to sharkskin on the roof.
So I can draw a line all the way around my icf home without lifting my pencils for a continuous air barrier.
My blower door score should be amazing 😂
What product did you use for waterproofing?
Can you do a video on electrical and plumbing in ICF
Yes they never do this
Or how to attach exterior and interior surfaces
I’d like to see electrical and plumbing both BEFORE drywall (initial construction) AND AFTER drywall (like a remodel).
@@uog293 Dead simple. lotsof youtube videos on it. Use either a battery chainsaw or a hotknife to route chases and remove insulation fro electrical boxes. Dryway is attached directly onto the blocks on the inside. Stucco can be applied directly to ICF blocks, most other siding should have traditional 1 by strapping to allow for draingage and longer life of siding. Strapping is applied directly onto the ICF blocks. Window/door openings are sealled exactly the same as traditional (modern) flashing techniques. No need for vapor barrier or WRB.
Built our current house 20 years ago with Logix for the basement and have loved it ever since. My wife and I are building a 1500 sq ft greenhouse next year and plan to build the in ground part with Logix as a DIY project. Their training is very accessible.
I've helped build a couple ICF homes in North MN.
They incorporated in floor hydronic heat, turned out to be AWESOME homes.
More people need to build with this product. Why do we use sticks and paper? Everything standing from our past is built with stone and concrete! This is cool
The 48’ multigenerational icf home that I am diy building should be in my family for more than 500 years.
Sustainability being a reason. Also, with proper care (waterproofing, screws, bolts, heavier dimensions for the lumber, like in germany/switzerland/austria/scandinavia) wooden homes can last 100s of years too.
Because most builders are framers or work with primarily framers.
Because this is extremely expensive
@@antonnovosselov7762 not true. Saves you money in the longer term actually
I can't wait to build an ICF home some day.
We have designed homes with this brand of ICF foundations and then drop a prefab modular unit on top, works great and fast. Cost is irrelevant when you factor everything that goes into building a home. Great system.
My wife and I will be building an ICF home in central Florida probably starting next year.
Curious what you plan to cover it with?
@@h82fail if you mean exterior siding it will be a mix of Cumaru, thin stone veneer, and Nichiha panels.
@@h82fail we will do a mix of Cumaru, Nichiha panels, and thin stone veneer,
Would be nice to see a video on how ICF could be used on an elevated concrete structure like those typical in flood prone areas of Florida.
Excellent product. Your cameraman is triggering my motion sickness.
It is also bullet proof in case you need to build in Chicago.
Or Baltimore and Philly.
Yo why do white people bring up chicago like it's the only dangerous place in all of America? Yall ever been to a trailer park in Minnesota 😂? All poor neighborhoods in every inch of the globe are extremely violent.... why? Because poverty causes desperation and desperation causes fighting for resources which directly leads to violence which creates a cycle of extremely traumatized and decencitized and mentally ill children that are bound to go down the same path but worse
Yep see some houses build with this system 20y ago back home is great.
I have bewen interested in ICF for a while but I was told that areas where termite are a threat to homes ICF is not good to use due to not being able to get termite protection as they have bored into the forms and cant be delt with. As such the termite companies will not insure or guarantee the protection. I would love to get get some feedback on your thoughts regarding termites.
The foam is not structural like a traditional wood frame home. You're in trouble with a traditional wood frame home as wood is structural. So right out of the gate you will always be in better shape building ICF in termite areas. Foam is not food to termites and has no sustaining value to them but wood does and is food to termites.
Can you get a steadycam, or at least a gimbal for your camera operator? I hate getting seasick in my own bed, watching YT. The segment around 14:30 was terrible for that.
I'd love to see Quad-Lock ICF featured. They have a decking system the allows you to have concrete floors.
Quad-lock is my favorite block to work with
With finished ICF construction, how are boxes, cabling, and pipe added years later as needs change? Seems like a finished ICF wall would be very remodel UNfriendly. Do people build a 2x4 stud wall interior to the ICF wall so that the wall can accommodate change through the decades?
Cover the termite issues with ICF!!
can someone talk about termites and other insects that would burrow into the EPS or Graphite Polystyrene forms. I have heard that some insurance companies would not insure a house that used ICFs below grade
Poly guard make TERM membrane you can adhere to the first course to termite proof it. It’s a peel n stick.
Second or third hand stories need to be taken with real caution.
@@ArnieD17 in the 80's my sister had a basement built with ICFs . The termites burrowed in and eventually made it to the house. not a second hand story. I was just interested to know if ICF bug prevention has improvement.
@@benfranklin7883 icf wasn't even around in the 80s, all you would have to do is put metal cap between icf and board.
Termites are easily mitigated with a variety of products. We often recommend Sopremas Colphene ICF membrane
I built a 2 story ICF fully off-grid House 5 years ago using Nudura ICF forms. Almost no difference between this and Nudura. I can't comment on price difference as I bought all my ICF before "Covid19". It's easy to build airtight homes with ICF. You can heat our house of 3000 sq ft with a hair dryer! Well almost. We only have a 3 ton heat pump with an ERV.
ICF blocks are great. I think the 16" block height is a little limiting in that wall height only work out evenly in 4' multiples. If you are doing and ICF house from footer to rafter, it is harder to get custom wall heights without cutting blocks. I think a 12" block height would be more flexible in design options. One think not mentioned with ICF construction, is that you get a very air tight house without much effort.
Superform has 12 inch blocks
Great points, it's always advantageous from a labour and material standpoint to design to the height of whatever ICF form you're using, but it's even more important to get the end result that yourself or the client wants. Element ICF has convenient embossed cut lines at 4", 8", and 12" to make cutting to those heights quick and easy. Being a fully reversible form the off cuts can be reused. -- Jay from AMC Foam
@@amcfoamtechI was just mentioning to the guy who thought he would like a 12 inch block that it exists. yes you're absolutely correct. I actually prefer the 16 inch height. And ripping one course if necessary takes no time at all. Much faster in my opinion stacking a larger quantity of 12 inch blocks. I have experience with amvic and fox , however the new element block seems to have every feature one can ask for and priced well also. I'll know once I use it but should be a game changer for the industry. I've already contacted my rep and have a project upcoming using element.
I am diy building a 48’ tall icf house. Cutting the windows adds some time but it is doable.
@@absolutetorquetuning7956 Awesome! Thank for your that and we look forward to hearing your feedback! -- Jay from AMC Foam
What have they done about the termite issues with the ICF’s below grade
Theres termite membranes you can use
would like to see how to run electrical or plumbing through these walls
Real easy i just hot knife in a groove for the electrical and the pluming where I had to penetrate the wall I just put a pvc pipe the wall before the pour.
Did an entire house out of this last year, stacked all of the block myself and dont think I would ever build a house any other way. House is extremely efficient to heat or cool and very quiet. Cost wise not much more than stick built because of all of the labor savings in the walls. Look it over I think you will like it!
I have the same question, but in POST-drywall (remodel) situation. Needs within the wall change over time.
@@mikeyazel8725How is it done POST-drywall in a remodel situation years after initial construction?
Good timing, been hunting for a icf contractor in the nashville tennessee area.
@@fraxonthefurry21 if you just want someone to do the Icf portion, let me know. I’ll send you a name.
I sell fox blocks also
What are people doing to air seal between the ICF and conventional framing? Sega tape? Liquid Flashing? Thanks!
What is your view on ICF vs Superior Wall for a walkout basement?
We're huge fans of ICF, love Nudura but can see how this line is really giving them a run for the money. One quick point about the Logic Bucks. While plywood/OSB is commonly used to strengthen parts of the block for a pour, in the case with Logix/Element bucks, you simply screw through the foam to fasten them in, no need to strap with wood on the exterior for that product. You will have to have some interior bracing though. If you plan correctly, you can keep some bracing in place to attach a nail flange onto if you're going to recess windows in.
There was some testing a while back that showed inset windows screwed directly into the concrete core provided the strongest seal against wind and rain. No buck needed there too, but some detailing is needed to make sure it slopes correctly and everything.
@@rafflesmaos I'd love to know how that could be done effectively without pre-drilling each tapcon screw.I'd prefer to use some 1" LVL furring strips to attach to.
@@SchondorfEnt Yeah there's not much to do about escaping drilling the concrete, but that's what they've been doing in Europe for a while now. Many of their buildings are concrete and brick, and they mostly use the inset windows.
I just happen to really dislike having dead tree carcass in the building envelope, so I'd personally rather pay a bit more towards the extra labor of installing the windows, hehe.
@@rafflesmaos Perhaps, but a fluid applied waterproofed LVL is nothing short of a bomber detail for attaching a window flange to. I hear you, if $ was endless sure
ua-cam.com/video/9iCOs1jHhmY/v-deo.html
Jesse Muller did a great house build with this stuff. Good videos.
Matt I am diy building a 48’ tall 13k sqft multigenerational home. I am currently 37’ above grade. I only have 11’ more to go 🎊. I would love for you to come do an episode on how a person can diy the shell in their spare time. Or send Stephanie down from salt lake. I am only 45 minutes south of her.
Holy cow! Email me some pics. I’d love to know more
@@buildshow Happy to 😊. I have also been documenting my diy process and lessons learned on my UA-cam channel.
A fella from germany is doing something similiar and video documenting every step playlist?list=PLCn1z2eQjq-RdvjOsF1MKHuzWyZVSH2N8&feature
Inspired... I am doing the same thing just slightly smaller 9000. I'm DIY too. Even dug my own Sitework. I'm framing my footers as we speak. Would love to connect if you're open to it. I'm in Charlotte SC market. Nice job🎉
@@gandalf2950nice! Now I just need to learn German… 🤓😉
Do they offer thicker foam for a higher R value? How does it interact with the footings? What does the installation of the utilities inside look like? Can you make a roof from this material?
The effective "R VAlue" of these walls is a lot closer to R50 because of the thermal mass of the concrete. Just like the effective R value of a 2x6 stud wall with R22 insulation is a lot closer to R15. That said they offer thicker foam that can be placed on either the inside or outside when you use the site built product. Other manufacturers simply offer blocks with 4" or thicker foam on one side.
Interested in using icf forms for a slab edge condition. Can you use it on the outside slab edge only for a thermal break slab on grade construction?
Looks flammable
EPS will not catch fire or produce a flame. ICF has a 4 hour fire rating!
@@LogixBrands is that because of the concert or the product
No mention of how many feet vertically can be done in s single pour. Is the bracing more or less extensive than wood forms? Is it rented? Which technique ties them down to the footing for the pour? The installer brochure that I received off their website is just that a few pages of product pictures without the details.
Not sure on the max height in one pour, but they typically go one story at a time. You stack a story, put up rental bracing (look up icf bracing), then it's poured in lifts from above, typically 2-3 feet at a time, using either a pump hose or a boom truck. After each lift is poured it's optimally vibrated from the inside with a long pencil concrete vibrator. It continues on with multiple small lifts until the wall is filled. You then run floor joists and decking, stack the next story, brace it and continue. To anchor the wall correctly your footing has be prepared in advance. L shaped rebar called verticals are placed in the footer before the footer pour and they extend out of the footer about 30". There's a document called the prescriptive method of ICF that will tell you vertical spacing and rebar type based on soil type and backfill height of a basement. ICF is easy from a practical perspective but you need to closely follow the engineering tables for wall thickness and rebar requirements below grade and rebar spacing and thickness above grade for wind speeds against the structure and roof loads on lentils. Perfectly doable DIY though, just make sure you obsess over the details, especially rebar reinforcement, water proofing, sleeving all penetrations in advance, pre-inserting L bolts for ledgers, etc.
@@platniumdr I've personally seen 15' in one pour.
Cool product, thanks.
The biggest shortcoming of this system, of which are few, is addressing termite prevention/detection, a major limitation in termite prone zones. Otherwise, it's an almost incomparable wall sysrem impervious to most natural elements.
Technically hat's not a shortcoming of ICF, in fact termites can't even compromise ICF since the core is concrete. Yes detection can be a problem, but prevention is much the same as anything else. Termite mesh, termite parge coat, chemical spraying, etc. Also eliminating any structural wood internally is also an option (steel joist or concrete floors, etc)
@@rafflesmaos .The complaint that I hear from code officials, rightly or wrongly, is the difficulty in finding any evidence of the mud tunnels used to bridge obstructions that are the classic form of detection. I get that one can pretreat the area with anti-termite treatments, but it's added cost that potentially has a limited life. The new normal today is to install bait traps to know if there is any local insect activity, but the contractors then examine the concrete/blok foudation walls for evidence of tunneling activity. The ICFform buries that inside the wall. I'm beside myself on this because I earnestly believe that ICF construction is the best of breed construction innovation since the use of wood. I'm too old to fully benefit from this technology but, if I were to add room onto my existing house it would use this tech and double it floor and ceiling as a storm shelter.
@@rooscow Yeah I mean realistically there's a number of ways to deal with it. For example Nudura has a treatment they can add to the foam itself, or they have a detail where there's an embedded strip of plywood that can be checked, etc.
But even if all protection methods fail, it can only ever be an issue if there's a food source for them inside the building and they manage to tunnel far enough to get to it. So if there's no path through the concrete, they can't get inside for example. If there's no wood structures inside (concrete floors etc), then they can't feed off of anything. And so on.
Termites are easily mitigated with a variety of products; One of which we recommend often, and has been tested for termite prevention is Soprema's Colphene ICF membrane!
How do you handle the footer?
I wonder if you could do a spray foam core in some applications (instead of concrete). Could be pretty strong with vertical reinforcement. Super light, all insulation.
I need to make pilasters for my timberframe posts?
DO they offer forms for the footer? what does that connection look like with or without an ICF form for the footer
Normal footers with rebar "pegsS per engineered drawings. Foam is "glued" to the footer with traditional sprayfoam that some in a can.
How do l deal with rodents eating the polystyrene panels? I’ve heard of instances in the Caribbean where they use ICF and they ended up with a rodent infestation. You can’t put any metal mesh on it until after you’ve poured the wall and remove the shoring. Until that time, rodents could burrow their way into the ICF and either stay there or lay eggs.
Can't wait for someone to come with graphite icf
Logix has GPS
@@krogg5868 oh really?! I'll check it out. Is it for ICF or just insulation?
@@whymindsetmatters Hey there! We actually have three GPS insulation product lines including Chrome GPS (unfaced GPS sheets), HALO rigid insulation including Subterra, Interra, and Exterra (faced GPS for below grade, interior, and exterior applications), and GPS ICF. LOGIX ICF Platinum was our first series of GPS based insulated concrete forms, but it will be an available option with Element ICF as well. -- Jay from AMC Foam
@@amcfoamtech thanks! Do you have a website?
Already in use in Europe in northern Scandinavia countries
But nothing can beat stick frame price
ICF is simply more expensive
Built my 2000 square foot house in 2006 with the entire first floor ICF. Even when it is -25 degrees outside without heating never goes below 37 inside.
Using "R Values" with ICF is underselling the product. The thermal mass MUST be taken into account with this product. In most cases, the "effective" value is a lot closer to R50 then the measured R24. Build a R24 stud wall and a R24 ICF wall and the difference in "cost of living" is significant...especially in northnern climates.
Matt,
Can you please look at the Vegas based firm offering geopolymer concrete formulations? Have they done any residential projects yet?
I've got a place in NE texas, has a nice hill that I've been thinking of building a 14-16ft tall 40x80/50x100 arena(to catch water for house use), & build a 2story house under the arena on one end w/a deck that sticks out,&shop on bottom. I want the house in-between the 2 post on the end so concrete wall on bottom floor. The house end of hill drops 15ft so w/a 2 story I can help prevent erosion on path from house. Slight downhill from shop would be better. Hilly area of Texas & there are dirt terraces on each road/path.
Would this foam work against dirt/What would you put on the foam to run water off&down(house will be mostly protected by arena from water)?
I've thot about wood foundation as road/path wouldn't carry a concrete truck at the moment. I know they use wood foundations in Minnesota & out of the way places that can't get a concrete truck into. Concrete wall could actually be away from house 5ft or 2 walls(5&10ft away), & use top of wall(s)(&ground outside for supporting 2nd&3rd story deck(s)).....I'm only explaining plans for a small part of the 106 acres(2-3 rows of pecans n&s along sw border, rows of grapes/muscadines, southside of hill planted in coastal or native grasses so to keep miles of view south clear, north side of hill is more vertical-plant different colored crepe myrtles for view from road&secret meandering path down hill w/water falls(one huge one or several down to a pond that is already built(above gulley-i think they built it as they were mining for clay f/road terraces), etc. So many ideas!
I'm looking for suggestions & if you want to make a video of the place/hill/progress, great.
Thx!
Check out ICF waterproofing membranes! We often recommend peel-n-stick products over a spray application.
@LogixBrands thx. This 106 acre place is amazing. Spring west to east between road&hill with slow gulley(thinking several lined squared ponds feeding each other-can use pump to recirculate) w/2-3acre pond at bottom just above wwc, wet weather creek along n/s along east boundary for pumped water to ponds&irrigation f/pecans, great views north&east&south&sw, several pond sites(thinking 50-60ft drop from deck into pond would be great place for a zipline). I want to keep the hill view(3story w/one&half stories cut into hill with deck(s) for views. I'm always searching for ideas. The arena/large roof actually, for water&solar(?) would actually be hidden 300yds from road by pines except for end&house&decks. Want a office/study up high for view(study'study'study :) Jump off deck outside of study&living room for zipline. I have a fb page for the place but won't post unless asked. Just a bunch of ideas(slowly coming together). House doesn't have to be huge, just tall for views&deck.
Thx for your yt vids!
First one ;)), thanks Matt, keep up with the great content !!!
I would love to see your thoughts on the perfect block system
I am building my personal icf home with geothermal heating and cooling and i-span steel floor joist system in colorado. Its 8500sqft interior conditioned space + 250sqft sunroom area + 2400sqft 5-car garage + 1300 sqft under garage tool shop. Its 35' with basement, mainlevel and upper level without roof.
So far i am happy with construction part, rest i will know more about efficiency when its enclosed. But i am using nadura icf, seems like element icf picked the nubs and ratcheting system from nadura. Good thing i seen in element icf is you can cut every 4" without cutting the plastic.
U a po' man isn't u!? Who the fck needs an 8500 sf home, no one!!
This sounds like a great project
I use Nudura myself and love it, using geothermal heat pumps is great, based on the size of your project and the technicalities of geothermal, make sure your designer has the best source and calculations are double checked, because that size project and the location of openings will be key, the ICF will be fine, it’s the heating/cooling zones throughout the house that can be tricky to nail
Did I just miss the info or can this be coated with something to protect it. I know various types of siding can be attached. What if someone doesn't want typical siding, like an exposed basement wall on a walkout basement?
Most ICF makers offer brick ledges.
Great question, ICF construction can be finished with virtually any type of interior or exterior finishes that a lumber or steel framed building can be. Acrylic or cementitious stucco, EIFS, vertical siding, horizontal siding, stone, full brick or thin veneer, panelized systems like ACM, the list goes on... your local ICF manufacturer rep can help you out to find the best way to achieve your desired finish! -- Jay from AMC Foam
Do you have to do 2ft lifts as you go up?
We typically recommend 3'-4' lifts. Higher slump concrete mixes or SCC usually requires a slower pour rate or shorter lifts. ICF contractor experience comes into play here, there are some do's and don't's that we help train ICF contractors on in our onsite and online training! -- Jay from AMC Foam
@amcfoamtech thanks Jay. Looking at using them for my cash wash project.
Heard about these back in 2008. (Canada).
Current plan for my little house (once I find the right location) is to have the basement in ICF and the ground floor in SIP with a nice thick SIP cap of a roof.
Make sure to read the insurance contract first. Because a lot of insurance companies will resfuse to pay out for termite damage if the foundation is made with ICF. seems to be happening more and more .....
Why not do ICF from the footer to the rafter? SIPs have the same issue with ease of renovation as ICFs do. I agree with you on the use of SIP roof panels.
@@tombogaert1015 Curious. Where are the termites coming from? If ICF basement has concrete floor and walls in foam, are they eating the concrete? I have an ICF building and they would have to get to the LVL joists for first bite of wood. Would think the insurance benefit would be other way around. No walls or foundation to mess with to repair.
@@tombogaert1015not true regarding termites. If an issue there are barriers that can be installed.
@@bwillanno reason not to go ICFs from footer to rafter. SIPs are not faster to installor more energy efficient than ICFs.
just finished drying in an ICF house with my dad in Northern Maine. Walkout basement and first floor all ICF. The only issue we're having is finding a 11.5" wide door sill plate.
I’d be interested to hear if you’ve found a solution.
@juliatrainer2633 not yet. It's closed up for the winter and we'll get back to work in the spring
About a year ago, yall put out a video with details about the inflation reduction act. I, like you, live in Texas and as far as I know, there is still no way to take advantage of any of those programs. Do you have any idea what the status is on that those programs? It so, would love to see a new video on it!
Why haven't they switched to graphene polystyrene?
There also should really be a company that offers a panelized icf home kit.
Hey there, we've had GPS (graphite polystyrene) as an available option in our LOGIX ICF line up for many years called LOGIX ICF Platinum series. It will also be available as an option in Element ICF! -- Jay from AMC Foam
@@amcfoamtechWhat is the benefit of GPS over other ICF systems? Over ICCF (e.g. Perfect Block) ?
There are so many advantages so it is really hard to understand why so few people build with it.
Some people would rather put up a gaudy gold chandelier than to spend a few extra percent on a better building shell.
cost and it really is more work than just stacking 'legos' needed items-- bracing, staging for the pour, knowledge/experience, more steel needed , etc.... but the concept does make sense.
Cost…
I think it’s exposure
Because I’ve done many projects with it and it cost about the same when you factor in the smaller crew (labor cost and skilled trades) fewer connections, lighter workload (foam is light and the pump truck does the heavy pour), easier and faster than pour in place, less room for error than framing, bracing isn’t as difficult as pour in place because the 5+ inch of eps makes bracing easier because it’s more about balancing the vertical wall after properly locking in the base to footing, I use a system that is near full-proof
Ensuring the top of the wall is plumb, level and straight is the trickiest part, but with the right equipment or skill it can be done
That’s the part people screw up the most and it’s very hard to fix or nearly impossible to correct
@@koriifaloju2051 I wish more people would do it, as well as build firms. It was really painful for me to find a contractor experienced with it, and I still have to do a lot of legwork coordinating between the architect, civil and the contractor. Meanwhile companies like toll brothers churn out cookie cutter homes that start falling apart after a few years.
Earthquake concern. don't the ties interfere with rebar fencing?
The ties are what hold the rebar in place, you’d lay a course, then seat and tie the rebar, and repeat
ICF's are very resilient to earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes and any natural disaster!
Is the GPS foam also termite resistant? I'll be looking forward to seeing that used for the Element system! Hopefully they'll be out by the time I want to start building my forever home in a year or two.
No got to protect it somehow
@@IronrodpowerThe other ICF manufacturers that make a gray version claim their gray version is termite resistant.
There's termite sprays and layers you can add to it if needed. Same if you want to waterproof it
Will termites eat through the foam?
They can, though there are products that insert flashing into the blocks to stop termite tunneling. Also, if you don't have any exterior wood near the ground, there is no incentive for them to tunnel through the foam since it is not edible.
Check out Sopremas Colphene ICF membrane for termite mitigation!
FYI The patent for ICF was officially submitted in Canada on March 22, 1966, and the U.S. patent application granted October 24, 1968.
Are ICF basements a thing?
Edit: Matt's past videos on ICF (that I've seen) were about building the external house walls from ICF, which is why I didn't realize that was meant for below grade walls until they mentioned it much later in the video.
Why would you work to the middle from 2 corners and create a vertical seam? wouldnt working from one corner to another make more sense? keeping the stagger throughout the build?
Are ICF blocks water resistant/proof?
20 years ago I trimmed an apartment built with ICFs. 6” high maple baseboard that they left stacked Willy-nilly in the garage in the humid summer. Many boards were bowed like mad and the nailers in the icf’s could not hold that maple. Total nightmare. Turned me off icf’s but still planning to use them for my own build.
is finishing the outside and inside a problem?
last week it was wood foundations , now this! not alot of tools needed only Bracing and more braces ,
I am diy building a 48’ tall ice home and my tools for the walls are a rebar bender/cutter, a foam gun, screw gun, skill saw, drywall saw and of course the bracing.
I only have 11’ more to go and I have straight walls 😊
They make ICCFs too! It's ICF, except it's made of recycled Styrofoam (from coolers, packing Styrofoam, etc...) so it helps keep those hard-to-recycle plastics out of the landfills while also sometimes using less concrete, which reduces carbon emissions
Cool looking product. Ive built with ICF's in the past, it was a hassle. Looks like the industry has come a long way
The icf blocks that I am using on my 48’ tall diy home are not a hassle. I have straight walls on my 72’ span and only have 11’ more to go 🎉
In my career I ended up using several different brands of ICF. I finally ended up using Logix and never wanted to use any other after that. They have an extensive product line and after watching this video it appears that they have continued to be innovating. The lock down aspect is huge (no more floating corners or joint separation during placement) in my opinion.
I still don’t know if I’m sold on the door/window buck system but it does look more innovative than any I have seen to date.
Love the idea of ICF but as I do the math there is no way to get cost down as you need to finish i side and outside and that adds subs and significant cost. Looking to build home in south Florida on stilts, huge cost savings if I go concrete block with rebar and pour columns with concrete then foam on empty columns I can go external conduit for electrical and not paint or finish interior or exterior of walls. Will price out around 5 dollars per square foot installed as block in Florida is cheap w tons of labor who know how to handle. Avg temp delta in Florida while we will be there is virtually zero so insulation is not a factor, just need cheap and storm proof winter home
This channel is nothing but ads anymore. I miss the days when you consistently showed construction content. Even the videos you shoot on building sites wind up being ads for products rather than showing high performance building techniques in detail like you use to.
He’s literally showcasing new products and innovations that can and have changed industry standards. Also everyone needs to eat. What’s the problem again?
@@ShowMeTheMendozas Calm down. Matt doesn't need you to carry his water.
It’s not carrying water; it’s common sense. And why the “calm down” comment? @dlg5485 had zero snark in his comment unlike you. There’s already too much of that on social media and it’s usually so unnecessary and uncalled for. We’re all learning here hopefully.
@@dlg5485 People building new homes like to know about new home building products, it's crazy...
You barely touched on: 1. how DIY friendly this really is. Wife and I built our own, only contracted the pours, hanging the trusses(crane day), metal roofing and drywall. 2000 sq/ft full daylight basement. It went VERY FAST! 2. How thermally stable the finished house can be with the CC mass putting the inside temp out of phase with the outside temp variations. My house varies perhaps 3 degrees throughout the day using low mass radiant heat(warmboard) and a relatively small boiler. Its the most quiet and comfortable building I have ever stayed in…
Nice system but would like radius corners added to their lineup.
Great video. I would be careful with putting carbon (graphene, graphit, carbon nanotubes, etc.) into a house. It has been proposed that some of the nano- reinforcements might have similar properties as asbestos. I mean, It's difficult to get a dangerous as asbestos but if I'm building I'm building with normal styrofoam
situationally dependent. they have been troublesome for us on one off archi driven customs with embeds, captured joists, moment frame anchoring. we prefer forms and we will gladly waterproof, rigid tape and matrix once the forms are stripped plus we have lots of requests for perfect above ground concrete andvthe transition is a pain.
Do you put OBS or other sheathing on the outside, or just the siding?
That foam would get ruined by the wind and hail here in CO.
I am in Utah and we had 1” hail recently. My home is under construction and it got some dents but did just fine.
But yes I will be putting siding on the outside of it when I am done.
You can finish ICF structures with the same weather resilient finishes that you would any other type of building. The difference with ICF is how much more disaster resilient a concrete structure is overall compared to wood, steel, SIP, and many other types of structures... -- Jay from AMC Foam
@@amcfoamtech You forgot the exclamation point at the end of your response! 😂 Just messing with you; I appreciate all the responses you’ve provided to questions. And your enthusiasm!!
It's not just put them together.
There is bracing that needs to be done correctly or you're destroying everything. Bracing equipment is not cheap
No metal clips to keep the blocks together
4 hours fire rating for a structural concrete wall is rather low.
that’s without considering the repercussions of the foam material outside which would be in contact with the fire first.. foam tends to set of a toxic smoke that’s hazardous for your eyes and lungs.
Foam also melts on a fire and it sticks to everything and doesn’t come off at all.
Plenty of cases of fires in night clubs with foam ceilings and people get killed burned alive because the foam makes a thick smoke that blinds people and makes difficult to breathe and the melting foam lands on them it sticks to their bodies at hundreds of degrees and burns until cooled off.
The chemicals in the smoke often sticking to internal tissue for a very long time causing prolonged health damage and lower quality of life, conditions such as breathing issues, lost of sight or lung cancer.
The reinforced concrete certainly is decent for safety and structural strength but I do not think it’s prudent to consider icf safer or better for fires than other materials considering it’s attached to a hazardous material.
Foam most of the time isn’t dangerous but any time that foam is forced to chance status (liquid, gaseous, solid) it transformes from inert to reactive (chances it’s chemical composition to something unstable that’s realising energy and turning into something else.
I like the general idea of ICF, but I don't like having the foam on the outside of the wall, especially in an area that has a problem with termites or ants as they can make nests inside the foam. I would much rather have a concrete surface on at least the outside of the wall with foam in the center and perhaps the interior side of the wall. Any chance we could see a removable exterior form as part of the site assembled kits?
This is one reason why I’d like to hear Matt’s opinion on The Perfect Block ICCF.
@@danscott6454 Yeah, I was actually thinking about a wall assembly that had The Perfect Block in the center with 2-3 inches of concrete on either side of the blocks using traditional removable forms with fiberglass form ties so you don't have the thermal bridging of metal form ties. I also like the spider tie system, but I don't know if you can put as much insulation in as I would like, and the lack of information on their website and any recent videos here on UA-cam makes me wonder if they are still in business.
Some of the companies make a bug shield that is inserted between two courses around the perimeter. It's a thin strip of metal that will block the burrowers.
@@r.j.bedore9884Steve Basic did a video on perfect block.
It's actually the other way around, you want concrete to be closer to the inside, because that's where all the thermal mass is. The more thermal mass on the inside, the more comfortable the house will be without wild temperature swings.
13:01 😂 6:00 8:34 😂 13:47
LMAO "Editors...!!! HELP ME OUT!!!"
In building my new house in Florida, I looked seriously at doing ICF. What stopped me was the $10,000 in braces I was either going to have to buy, or go 2 hours to Orlando to rent the braces (also not cheap) and eventually just stayed with block which Huleo and his gang can stack cheaper and quicker.
Who is Huleo??
@@naya4607 lol
interesting reasoning... the labor/time involved in laying block, dealing with window/door openings, all the steps needed to insulate it, hassles of running MEP & penetrations, pain with attaching walls/finishes/siding/cabinets/etc, living with all that thermal bridging, and still not have the strength or thermal mass or continuous vapor/airtight envelope?
some ICF bracing can even use the sticks you'll re-use for interior walls anyway. paid $2800 for my used bracing, and it'll be sellable for the same once i'm done with it. couple days stacking/bracing, one pour day for FastFoot up to roofline & slab... doesn't get any quicker.
If waterproofing is so important why doesn't ICF come will Polycoat waterproofing already attached. Wouldn't that be great. Only have to do touch-ups.
It's only important below grade. Above grade it doesn't really need to be waterproofed as the siding is usually sufficient, but some people do foam compatible spray on waterproofing above grade just in case. EPS doesn't rot like wood, and even retains some insulative properties when wet.
I helped my dad build an ICF house 15 years ago. We did hire a group familar with ICF to do most of the form work. ICF sounds easy, but the reality is when you pour concrete - you can blow out walls and spill concrete everywhere when it is not properly supported on both sides. Zero mention of this issue -- as I think it is the number one issue holding back ICF construction.
Hi Jonathan, blow outs are very rare with the correct installation processes. Because of the smaller modular size of ICF forms compared to larger panel forms, when blow outs do occur in ICF construction they are usually significantly smaller than the blow outs that can occur in panel form systems. We offer free online, in-person, and on-site ICF installer training to ensure folks know how to set themselves up for a successful concrete placement! Did you and your Dad have any blow outs on your ICF project? -- Jay from AMC Foam
Vibrating helps with this
@@amcfoamtech No, we did not experience a blow out. ICF is great when done right. I just don’t remember at any point in the video where bracing was mentioned or how to brace correctly.
@@naya4607self compacting cement doesn’t need much if any vibration. And using Helix micro rebar to replace some of the rebar helps that even more.
Imagine ICF, but geopolymer concrete with biochar aggregate. Strong, hard shell, thinner than ICF to reduce weight, and net GWP negative.
More economical than ICF. R-0.2 to R-0.5. Slightly heavier than ICF, but then ICF seems too light sometimes, liable to blow around the job site on windy days.
Biochar concrete is still up to 15% lighter than concrete for the same strength when prefab to hit optimum strength at 55 degrees C (131 F) for 28 hours on the production line.
Fill the 6" gap with hempcrete, for equal R-value to ICF, plastic free.
I'm interested in ICF construction but I don't want my house to be made out of fly ash. Could you really trust your contractor to pour concrete made with ordinary portland cement without added fly ash, and for that matter, trust the ready mix company to actually honor the request and deliver it?
all the manufacturers of ICF products say you don't need a vapour barrier. That is incorrect.
Ask any ICF manufacturer if you need to waterproof their ICF when used for a basement foundation and every one will say absolutely yes you must waterproof the ICF foundation wall.. ie is is not water tight.
Well guys there is the answer.. if the ICF product is not watertight and needs waterproofing, then the ICF is certainly not water vapour tight. Check any of the written instructions for the ICF they all say you need to waterproof it, ie it is not waterproof/water tight.. and as such that means it is certainly not water vapour proof / vapour tight.
Footers need embedded vertical rebar, and a 6-inch rubber water stop
Ideally bentonite inlay on a keyway in the concrete footer
FIRST!! ONNNNNN THE BUILD SHOW!!!
Holy shakey camera!
My question as a layperson is what is the best R value you can get? Is it better with lumber or spray foam?
Maximum R Value depends on the given form and manufacturer. There's some forms that allow basically any R value you want. Generally speaking ICF will be far more efficient than stick built, doesn't need any fussy air sealing detailing work, and can be used to build passive as well as net zero houses. It's up to the owner to figure out what R value they want to aim for, then pick a form, keeping in mind that even if a wood wall and ICF wall have the same R Value, ICF will still be better due to the thermal mass involved.
Many exterminators won't inspect or warranty ICF inspection or even do/touch. Which means you can't get a morgtage or refi for ICF
This is simply not true! Termites are easily controlled and mitigated with a variety of products. ICF does not contain any organic food materials- So your only threat is pests tunneling the foam not actually feeding from anything. Soprema's Colphene ICF membrane is one of our most recommended product!
Matt, I'd be really interested in hearing your opinion of a different type of ICF called The Perfect Block. Insulated Composite Concrete Forms.
You’ll hear from Matt on The Perfect Block only if they sponsor an episode. Not meant to be a criticism per se, just a fact.
Concrete filled block with exterior polystyrene and stucco is a much better system. Insulating the interior space is dumb. You block the advantage of thermal mass and the temperature stability it provides.
The best review on the new Element block is linked below. This guy really knows ICF.
m.ua-cam.com/video/aTp9sAV2rCs/v-deo.html