i think klyden took it so poorly because of self hate, and Bortus took it so well because of his love for Klyden and his child, regardless of sex/gender
True, but I think it's deeper than that also. After doing what was expected of him for so long, I don't think he can face the idea that he could have lived differently all this time.
@@Stoned_Coyote Not yet anyway. MacFarlane is still interested in continuing it, and he's dealt with being cancelled before (same thing happened to Family Guy). Hopefully he and his colleagues can wrangle another season or two. It was just getting good. :
Fantastic scene. Bortus speaks first, admitting the truth faster. He speaks plainly, not trying to couch his words in cultural ideology but as a guilty parent to his child. And at the end, he's the only one who can still look his daughter in the face with humility and compassion. Then there's Klyden, trailing behind him with frantic emotion, desperate to preserve his cultural attitudes to save face, and storming out unable to be in the same room with either of them.
I think Bortus was quiet at first since he tried to give Klyden a chance to come clean but when we he was hesitant and lying, Bortus knew he had to step up
I think for Klyden it's deeper, he knows what Topa is going through having gone through them himself, and he clings to the traditions as being right because it's the only way he can justify why he had to go through the pain he did growing up knowing he's not right.
@@edwarddeguzman3258 This factor is part of the reason why I still like Klyden despite the awful things he's done. He's a living embodiment of the cruel callousness the Moclans display toward their own. Despite being in the same position as Topa from birth, Klyden became as traditional and norm-serving as all of their society, probably to cope with the pain of his "birth deformity," and then he sires a daughter. Then a stop-motion children's show convinces his husband that it's okay for their child not to receive the same treatment as every other female child, their government has to force him and the rest of the Union to perform it, Moclus' foremost philosopher turns out to be an unaltered female, and as they grow older, Topa decides to reverse on the sex-change and live as a female. Really, life has got to be like a conservative's nightmare for Klyden, and the whole time, he HAS to be wondering if his life is valid.
2:37, for someone as seemingly emotionless as Bortus is, an outburst like this speaks volumes to his character’s feelings in this scene. Mad at himself, mad at his husband, mad at his own people, but has nothing but patience and calmness when speaking with Topa. Honestly so much depicted in a mere 5 seconds. Genuinely well done.
Bortus is the ideal in this scenario. Supports the kids as much as possible, tries to work with the other parent as much as he can but ultimately chooses his kid over this partner, not an easy decision to act on but he does it whilst making sure Topa knows she is worthy and loved.
@@dm121984 unrealistic. this girl is basically never safe to walk on her own planet, she will literally be spit on. she will ether have to spend her life on a ship around no other mocluns, or at most a small few that dont have the same opinions are most of the planet. this is a species that kills their females at birth or secretly changes their gender. Bortus, is speaking from a idealistic land of dreams. while klyden knows exactly, whats awaiting her if she goes down this path. the scorn the loneliness the hatred, he tried to make it so that she would never have to go through that. because he knows first hand.
@@soulsreaper7145 It was _not her parents' choice_ whether she transition back to her birth sex. She understood what her society felt about the matter. She knew her choices. She did not lack awareness of how Moclans treat women. She made her own decision about what to do with her own body. As was her right. And she made that decision with the blessing of her father, Bortus.
@@soulsreaper7145 and why does that mean she is not worthy of existing as she is? Women have been treated as lesser for centuries. It may not be as extreme as on their planet, but change has to happen somewhere anyway. Other women in their culture exist. Straight men there exist. They are a society built on discriminating against those people, and eventually those people are going to find a life of their own or fight for change in their homelands. Idealism has its place because, without it, nobody would ever fight for a better tomorrow. Bortus is right to show compassion to his child. Klyden is fair in having mixed feelings about it as a victim of their society who has been forced into a world of self-hatred, but needs to realise that this is not his or his child's fault.. it's the society that told them their existences were wrong, and it's the society that needs to adapt to the fact that women deserve a right to exist as they are without living in fear of societal discrimination.
Bortus is an excellent mate. He fought so hard to not have Topa be changed it almost ruined his relationship with Klyden. When confronted though he shared an equil measure of the blame instead of letting resentment cloud his mind and hurt Klyden. Good guy bortus
He showed some tough love to his partner who is likely living with the fact that he himself was like Topa, but came to be indoctrinated by the society he was raised in, contending with the fact that just cause it was common practice and socially acceptable didn't make it morally right. This exploration of values is why I always loved the star trek series, it held a mirror to our own society in a way, but like a fun house mirror where we do not recognize that we are viewing ourselves from a different point of view. Helping to remove the bias we hold for ourselves, our race, our species, our society.
I was very VERY concerned about how they would approach this plot line. I thought it was the one massive red flag in the series. They more then proved me wrong. Fantastic, fearless writing.
Fundamentally, it is a crude work around for our current transgender issues as in this fictional case, it is the birth gender identity that is being asserted not a gender identity contrary to the physical birth gender. In a way, this is a round about way to deliver a social comment around the current bias of some in our society.
@@johnwang9914 It is crude, and you're not wrong. However, I do want to point out that some trans people were born with an ambiguous visible gender (known as intersex), and were assigned a gender and operated on to make that gender fit. Not all intersex people are trans, but some trans people are intersex.
@@electricangel4488 I think it's highly relevant. And I'm not sure what you mean by "perfect" knowledge in this case. We're talking about how someone feels in both this fictional example and in the real world.
@@mahna_mahna knowledge of the parents. Topa parents know all factors A person with such body later on getting body disphoria is a chance. Ussualy getting a surgery to aline it to the dna xy or xx works. But that doesnt mean it doesnt happen that people with it get body dismorphia.
it's because I think Fox cancelled them so Hulu picked up where they left off hence why it's on hulu which was better and worse for the series in my opinion. better because they have a bigger budget and we get more of the series but worse because it became more of a serious show instead of a comedy
@@noobkiller11790 I just finished looking at this season yesterday and that's the first thing came in my mind was it seemed like a lot of the comedy got taken out and it became more of a serious show which isn't bad but the comedy helps set it apart from Star Trek and Stargate
@@warlockgod66 This season was the original vision of the show for the creator but Fox network forced him to pitch the show as a sci fi parody as they wanted it to be like his other successful show Family Guy thinking it could be a hit too.
This kind of stuff happens IRL, if you have an intersex medical condition, parents will be instructed to pick a sex, and then never tell the kid they're different. Sometimes doctors won't even tell parents. For obvious reasons, this comes from the same feelings as anti-trans, but they are in fact different things. In this case, the fear of admitting her identity to her parents and the shame she was accidentally taught are similar things.
Not so different really, by choosing an intersex child's sex you can in fact make them trans, the same way if you alter a cis person's sex they too can become trans. That's really all it is. Many intersex individuals are broadly speaking trans as a result of such medical interference by parents or doctors, the trans condition in intersex individuals proves the idea of transgender folks experiences even though they have no record of being intersex that we are aware of. Not everything is so easily seen when it comes to human physiology. Some intersex folks have no idea they are intersex and neither did doctors, not all intersex conditions are observable to the naked eye.
You definitely hate Klyden in this scene, but then you realize that everything Topa is describing, probably fits perfectly with the living hell Klyden has been in all his life. Honestly it's no wonder he's such a misogynistic ass all the time. So might we all be if we had to live such a massive lie.
You can very easily apply this intersex people discovering the truth about their birth and I am sure that was on purpose. Also having a species that are all male, points out weirdness of genders and their respective assumed roles. Orville, you are making my inner Star Trek nerd so happy.
The parents of intersex people have a very difficult decision. If they don't Make a decision, the child grows upon with health problems. An example was in the Philippines. The "girl" grew up with female and male characteristics. At birth she presented more female. The parents and doctors didn't notice it. But during puberty, the male gonads overpowered her female gonads. She wanted to be female, but is now infertile. But there are questions. What if her parents knew? What if they chose male and she grew up wanting to be female? What if they chose female, and then she wanted to be male? It's a hard decision.
@@rickrollrizal2747 No, some healthy intersex people are forced to have surgeries and sometimes that may cause a problem later on because it doesn't align with their mind.
@@robin9759 again, as I said it's. A hard decision. The rarenesa of the condition doesn't help. But these are diagnosed individuals. Not the same as those liberals pretending to be of another gender because it makes them special. And them pretending makes it bad for the real intersex cause they get included in the backlash.
@@rickrollrizal2747 No it isn't? God, I was agreeing until you starting saying people are pretending. I understand some people say so for the content, but gender dysphoria is an actual thing that's not the same as intersex, a gender that expresses both male and female with no lean. It's easier to do but seeing intersex as a "condition" and not how someone is makes more people opt to perform surgeries on these infants and more likely to turn out that way.
It is not just the message that is important but also how the message is delivered. That can only be achieved by mainly good writers and directors who care about quality vs quantity. Sure actors are important, but it is the former two who create the scene in the first place.
This show is a prime example of how to spread a message without preaching. The trick is to show that both sides of the issue have merit, and not demonize one side or the other.
Not Moclan society. I'm talking about Klyden specifically. He made some salient points about how Topa would face relientless bullying and virulent hatred if she weren't made to undergo the sex change surgery. It's kind of undermined by the fact that Topa has no need nor desire to ever see Moclus, but it's still a valid point.@@Toneill029
The fact that Klyden felt the need to lie and try to beat around the bush while Bortus was straightforward with Topa says a lot about each one of their characters
No Bortis never reveals this information and even Isaac figures it out and Bortis says that's for him to decide to tell. Isaac is like I understand. Your child decided to tell me about her situation is that alright? Yes. She has the right to tell anyone she wishes. I understand. Isaac proceeds to help her undergo the Gender reassignment surgery.
@@Toneill029Nothing to do with trans, there are no trans there, only parents/society FORCING physical change unto a baby child that didn't decide anything.
@@TheGrimmCommoner Still well within the trans experience broadly, as Topa would serve as a perfect example of an intersex child who was surgically altered as an infant, something we do not do with infants who are not visibly intersex, which intersex was/is viewed as a condition that needs to be corrected to alter them to be in line with social expectations, which then branches into trans related issues trans folks also face. Intersex children sometimes grow up to be trans as a result of these surgical alterations at infancy. So while yes at face value Topa would be de-transitioning from our perspective of the issue, in Moclan society she's transitioning from the socially accepted norm of male. Which in our society would be cisgendered, to the socially unaccepted female, which in our society is broadly transgendered. Topa serves as a representation of women's, intersexed, and trans issues, in a society that is misogynistic taken to it's extreme conclusion.
I love how nearly everyone is missing that this is about those who are born intersex and have "corrective" surgery forced on them to adhere to social norms.
Ironically, Klyden of all people could have instantly resolved this entire plot line by being honest. For instance: Klyden: “To leave you as you were would have been…” Topa: “…unthinkable.” Klyden: _”Unbearable!_ For you! I was born female, Topa. Moclus does not tolerate females. I know how it feels to be resented. I know how it feels to be rejected, shamed, mocked, hated, to be considered an abomination for no other reason than because I _existed._ I did not want that for you. I did not want you to experience the _despair_ I felt, nor the hatred I felt for myself that was forced upon me. I wanted a better life for you, and I gave you the best chance you could possibly have had for a Moclan. I tried to spare you from despair so that you would not suffer as I have suffered!”
@bsgfan1, I'm confused with this comment. Did I miss something?Klyden didn't know he was born female until he was an adult and was never seen as a female to receive mistreatment. He in fact was not fond of females and since he never identified as a female, he was glad he had the surgery done to him.
@@Pianobug007 In fact, I remember an episode where Topa was picking up on his people's hypermisogeny and actively talking down to the other girls in his class, and he'd been picking up that crap from Klyden.
This can’t be applied to Klyden because he never truly experienced the prejudice Moclans women experienced, since he underwent the surgery when he was a baby, like Topa was. He only found out very recently in his life, once Bortus had joined the Union and Klyden was examined by a Union doctor
That would’ve been a better line but that still doesn’t change the fact that Topa has every universal right to be what God and Nature created her to be. Why should she be turned into something she isn’t all for an imperfect society that views the female gender as an inferior gender?
@@lochness5524But Topa felt like a female inside, even after the surgery. Is it possible that Klyden feels like a female too but doesn't act on it to avoid problems?
This discussion on gender is always heated but here it is done pretty well and i like one thing if you have a society where one gender is all there is problems always will arise no matter which gender male or female you need both and changing the orginal gender your born with without consent is wrong because a child doesnt understand and cant until they mature to an age where they can feel and know their body well enough make to make proper decisions.
lol no the point being presented is that no matter what you do to the outside you are still the same on the inside trans woman = man trans man = woman cant change biology its just reality
@@jasperzanovich2504 What only shows that they´re not a male species, they´re...hermaphrodites? Well Bortus laid an egg that Klyden fertilized and if they are both of the same sex...then the discussion that they had on the Orville about a child with 3 legs would rather be about a child with only 1.
Then it's wonderful that no medical practitioner suggests just giving young children the ability to transition without extensive psychotherapeutic intervention over the course of years.
Klyden seems like a parent that who tries to defend Intersex genital mutilation or male genital mutilation (circumcision). Once they have been called out.
@ArthurRex131 To injured, disfigure or change by irreparably removing healthy tissue. The Foreskin (present in males and females) is healthy tissue. There is also the frenulum, which is a densely packed band of nerves that connects the foreskin to the glands The foreskin helps by protecting the glans, improving immunological health through flora production, and maintaining a proper pH, sensitivity through the Meissner Corpuscles, natural lubrication provided by sebaceous glands and natural bodily mechanics during intercourse.
@@MJCP4while I don’t think I would ever do it to myself, and wouldn’t do it to my son without his consent, other parents have their own choices to make.
a lot of people will think this is anti trans, but in reality its as pro trans as it can get. your gender doesn't matter whats in your pants or genes, but as Topa stated inside she felt differently.
who the hell thinks any of the Moclan story line is anti trans? How? My critique is that it is too on the nose pro trans and the conservative point of view sometimes is so simplified that it becomes a strawman agrument. I think in earlier seasons the Moclan mainstream point of view was more nuanced and a better representation of real life bigotry. In the end of this episode I really wanted an answer from Klyden to "what satisfaction does it bring you to follow the Moclan way that you are willing to lose your family for?". My bet would be "Because if I admit that Topa is a female, I have suffered for years for nothing."
I think on the surface it give the "parents force kids to be trans" vibe(because authoritative Transphobic parents thinks every parent is as authoritative as them) but when you look at it from the fact that it's an alien culture the important part is what Topa feels, she feels she is a woman and she has to be a woman despite what her surroundings have told her her entire life.
Forced transition. I love how the writers have approached this cultural issue that is such a hot topic today. By reversing the norms of the situation, i.e. a child wanting to transition to another gender verses a child forced to transition to a different gender, they are able to make us think about the subject through a reverse lense. Awesome scene.
I love how this fictional situation is technically the opposite of what the audience feels like it represents. This is an example of someone de-transitioning, since she was in fact born biologically female, surgically altered to be physically male, but psychologically still aligned with her original biological sex, making her want to be restored to that state. While likely not intentional, this is a surprisingly counter-cultural message today.
the thing about this is that it’s not that the parents are transphobic and don’t want their child to be a girl, it’s that the parents didn’t know any better and thought what they thought was right, they clearly love their child and could love her unconditionally.
Using the word transphobic would not really help in this case due to the fact that they are a mano gendered species. Even for them the word mail has little meaning for a species that only has one gender, and that gender can do the actions as well as the biological effects of both a human comparison of female and male. To them a female born from their genetics will be comparable to a human born with no arms or possibly even five eyes.
"transphobic" bro if anyone is transphobic here it's the child she's the one complaining about the alteration you ain't gon see a trans person doing that
@@GuiltyFaTThe species has a female gender, it's just discriminated so heavily against in society it is considered saving face to "correct" your rare female child to male.
I have not seen this show, but from just this scene I can tell its clearly pro-trans, criticizing a culture for literally assigning a gender onto a child against their will. Its a little heady admittedly, but that's Stark Tre-I MEAN-the Orville for you!
It's a round about way of discussing transgender issue as Toba's birth gender is female and it is her asserting a psychologic female gender identity from her birth despite the physical gender reassignment. This is pretty much the opposite of transgender issues where the psychologic gender identity does not match the physical gender from birth. But this is all to get around the shallow minds that are antagonistic to our current transgender issues.
@@johnwang9914 This is often done to make people who wouldn't otherwise be able to conceptualize the situation more able to understand it. For example, the movie "White Man's Burden", or the episode of TNG "Angel One", where women are stronger and dominate over men (who have fewer rights).
@@electricangel4488 Quite the difference between a cultural and legal requirement for an infant physical sex reassignment portrayed in this fiction and parents simply not forcing cultural norms onto a child's psychology. If there is any forcing of gender identity in our society, it is to be cis gender and this "forcing" is prevalent throughout society even in our advertising and media. No one forces their child to be transgender, if anything there is a lot of pressure to conform with societal norms.
That was coming ! It is a very difficult subject and still is a difficult one. In many ways. And perhaps that is now why I realize that a situation where the same matter might have been a complication in a different way for me. There was another colleague who I treated with curteousy and respect - a older sibling, where the younger sibling treated with unhappiness the choice of being respectful I made. Towards that older sibling - he was a she. And she wanted to be a he! That didn't endear the younger sibling to me. Who transferred that dislike to me. In other words, I got pilloried for being understanding. Bortus is going to face that from Klyden. I understand that now. And perhaps, that is why I ended up with the same problem, in an abstract way. Topa's own problems are also going to be very similar. Amazing to think that this series has brought up the revelation of this to me. I am content as to how I am. But so difficult to try to keep an open mind to Diversity.
Wanting to protect your child from a hostile social environment is one thing, but it is inevitable that a child grows up and changes. If that child realizes the decision you made for them and wants it reversed, all you should do is be grateful they feel safe enough to do so. Because you did protect them, and if your child trusts you enough to tell you they want it to be different, that means there’s still part of them that hopes you will still keep them safe. And so often we get thrown away instead.
The lack of music in this scene makes it so powerful. I’ve seen it in shorts but this is the first time I’m seeing it in its entirety and true form. They did good on this.
Truly a stellar episode. 10/10, one of the best episodes of any show ever. Bortus is the father we should all have. After watching it I thought this show had finally settled into its rhythm for season 3... And then the next episode was a stinking pile of garbage, 1/10, had to headcannon it away to be able to keep watching. What a rollercoaster of a series.
That line "we.love you for everything you ARE, and WERE." Makes me tear up, that is just such a goddamned sweet sentiment my poor little heart cant take it
When I first started watching The Orville, I went in expecting a light-hearted sci-fi comedy. What I wasn't expecting was heartbreaking scenes like this.
Is this inspired by the true story of a boy who was forced to live as a girl despite being born a boy and he committed suicide?? EDIT: makes more sense to be about those crappy anti-intersex surgeries
More likely an issue involving intersexed people. It common in that situation where the parents and doctors decide the sex and operate on the baby and not tell them.
as the show demonstrated, its less about what she was born as and more how she felt inside. no matter whats inside your pants, or your genes, everyone will still have a gender identity that will show through no matter what.
@@napalaprentice I have always seen this story arc as a simple idea that everyone transforms to suit their political viewpoints. It's not a pro-Trans or an anti-Trans argument. It's simply "Do not make decisions for your children that will alter their entire existence". Examples: do not perform a sex-change operation on kids younger than 18, and do not forbid those kids from taking said operations when they are mature enough.
I really hope someone from Star Trek has watched this scene. this is how you write issues involving gender identity when you want it done with caring, compassion and love. not the garbage they have been sprouting lately
Dude, like the beginning of the Orville was a Star Trek parody while honoring it in some aspects but then it pulls these Serious Ass Moments that make me love this show even more. Props to Seth Macfarlane man, wish we got a Season 4
God, i remember how the egg episode with bortus first seemed like "alien joke" throwaway bit. Who knew it would be the focal crux to an entire 2 seasons
I honestly have to wonder more about Moclan biology. Do they give hormones to the females that are changed? Or are the sexes more similar to one another than we think? And just a few organs need to be altered? Klyden was born female and hasn’t been seen taking hormones. Is there an implant that converts female hormones to male? Or forces the body to produce more male over female?
From the appearance they have medical technology advanced enough to actually perform sex change operations. We're talking about civilizations here capable or complete cell cloning and accelerated cell regeneration. Additionally the sexes, even in humans are far more alike that people realize when you look at things from a genetic viewpoint. The male sex is simply a small set of active genes on the Y chromosome which is programmed to take specific acts during development, where as the female sex contains no additional intformation (the two ending sex chromosomes are basically holding the same genes, just one set of expressions inherited from the father and another of the mother, there's no additional information there). Effectively ALL humans are by default female unless those small number of genes on the Y chromosome are present and other receptor genes are functioning. It's not hard to imagine, given the demonstrated technology that they could manipulate the genes in such a matter to have them express, or even possibly use donor material from a parent to effect expression. In short they have atual sex change, not what we have now which is simply cosmetic procedures.
I would argue that this is even more a metaphor against forced transitions and early gender experiments than anything else. Which is a good thing to advocate against, because those procedures were absolutely barbaric and had tragic outcomes more often than not.
@@eldritchcupcakes3195 I think the John/Joan case proves that gender identity is neurological and really represents the experience of transgender people. Despite never being told he was born male, John identified as such and always felt uncomfortable being raised as a girl.
They created a whole plot about an individual being trans. But within the context of the species, it makes sense. Even NuTrek wouldn't dare do this. They would say this person is trans and leave it like that. They wouldn't show parents denying their children or lying to them. Trek does it under the guise of inclusion. The Orville uses it to tell stories that actually happen to people.
No, gender is not a social construct. Gender roles are a social construct. Gender is neurological. Trans women are neurologically women. Trans men are neurologically men.
@@ozymandias8523 gender is far from a social construct or a learned thing David Reimer got a botched circumcision that mutilated him, John Money (the sub-human) known for his views that gender was learned rather than innate Money persuaded the baby's parents that sex reassignment surgery would be in Reimer's best interest. At the age of 22 months, Reimer underwent an orchiectomy, in which his testicles were surgically removed. He was reassigned to be raised as female and his name changed from Bruce to Brenda. Money further recommended hormone treatment, to which the parents agreed. Money then recommended a surgical procedure to create an artificial vagina, which the parents refused. According to John Colapinto's biography of David Reimer, starting when Reimer and his twin Brian were six years old, Money showed the brothers pornography and forced the two to rehearse sexual acts. Money would order David to get down on all fours and Brian was forced to "come up behind [him] and place his crotch against [his] buttocks". Money also forced Reimer, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. On "at least one occasion" Money took a photograph of the two children performing these acts When either child resisted Money, Money would get angry. Both Reimer and Brian recall that Money was mild-mannered around their parents, but ill-tempered when alone with them. Money also forced the two children to strip for "genital inspections"; when they resisted inspecting each other's genitals, Money got very aggressive. Reimer says, "He told me to take my clothes off, and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, 'Now!' Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there shaking." Money's rationale for his treatment of the children was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" "at thrusting movements and copulation" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money
This isn’t really that relevant but, funny enough…..female is the “default” gender, when we are developing inside our mothers, for a brief period we are all female, but later on some of us begin to take after our fathers male chromosome, thus, all males are a mutation/alteration of females, not the other way around, another example? A female doesn’t need a male chromosome, but a male needs a female chromosome, YY is not possible, XX is possible, but hey, I may be wrong, I’m not a scientist lol
I think we humans are more of a blanket not that female are the default ones but the basic human organism doesn't have boobs or penis is just a human without fully formed sex organs.
I love how brotus never hits klyden with the "i told you" or tried to rat out klyden and even in disagree ment reminds him that he still loves him, he said i love you and keeps true to his word even when its hard at times.
It's a fascinating way to explore intersex kids lives. People who aren't born inside the binary (roughly 4% of the population) but are routinely surgically altered to fit inside gender norms. I really hope that's what they meant, considering it is almost a 1 to 1 experience of intersex kids.
I agree very Fearless writing to show what is going on in our world. Just because you are a parent does not mean you always know what is best for your child and can make irreversible and life-changing decisions for them.
Topa may be an intersex analogy but she explains well why being transphobic is wrong as well. "I may appear to be male but what is inside me still exists" is exactly how a trans woman pre transition would feel.
That defeats the entire story. She was born a girl, is a girl inside, so why use a male actor? In real life, when people undergo transition surgery, they don't change bodies - they are still using the body they are born with.
This… THIS is how you cover trans issues. You don’t make it a ham fisted political rant, you make it a story. You make it play by the rules of the universe you have created. I love how the transphobic person is, in fact, transgender himself.
Not exactly trans anything. You are ignoring the part where they force a sex change on a biological female to be male cause they society demands it to be all male.
He is trans and wants his daughter to be-trans male as him as their home planet culture think females are inferior, so they force girls to transition into males.
A way more poignant way to touch a topic as sensible as transgender issues than just putting a transgender character as discovery did. This is how you do it
True , especially since it is the representation on how trans supporters parents mutilate and manipulate their own innocent children to have the child of the gender they wanted instead of loving the child as he/she is. The only difference is that in that serie , the choice is made out of love , in reality , the parents that do that to their children do it because the don't love their children and want them changed.
@LawnMower_gaming1 If you want your child to transition , then it means you don't accept your child for what he/she is , it then means you don't love your child . Simple logic. Also , a child doesn't want to transition , that has never happened and will never happen , it's always the gay male parents or the mother that forces them or manipulate them.
@@LawnMower_gaming1 a child doesn't understand the implications and the extreme damage to the body and mind transitioning means. Parents make their child transition by force because they want them to be the other gender , because you don't accept that what he/she is. A child will NEVER ever think of that unless pushed by his parents. You say it yourself , you don't care , you do not love your child and your child will despise you once he/she will understand what you took. Hide in shame , child abuser.
@@LawnMower_gaming1 a child doesn't understand the implications and the extreme damage to the body and mind transitioning means. Parents make their child transition by force because they want them to be the other gender , because you don't accept that what he/she is. A child will NEVER ever think of that unless pushed by his parents. You say it yourself , you don't care , you do not love your child and your child will despise you once he/she will understand what you took. Hide in shame , child abuser.
@@AdvancedKrizalid A child will only want to transition after years of having the body screaming that he or she is someone else. Even then, as a parent, I would tell that child to be patient until mature enough to make a clear decision on the matter, to really think about it in the meantime, and to support that decision when the time comes.
Orville had its share of woke themes but they were handled extremely well. You could understand all of the characters perspectives and motivations, the nuances and the difficult choices. It reminded me in places of the original series and TNG. Far better than so many other shows out there that just cant help but beat you over the head constantly with "the message".
You can change the outside appearance all the live long day, but it's who you are on the inside, what you came into this world as, is YOUR TRUE SELF! McFarlane and these writers are brilliant! We need a final season.
As a trans woman I was both horrified by the forced gender change on a freakin kid but I very much felt Topa's pain when she said she was really a girl trapped in a boy's body. I felt that in my very soul. Kayden reminds me so much of both my parents who didn't want to understand how I felt and only cared about what they "believed". I love Star Trek.
you know this plot can be taken a few ways, of the 2 i see the first is the way most people see, this is a trans child who wants to identify as the opposite gender and one of the parents is harshly rejecting it. but then there is the opposite. this child was forced to be trans by their parent to better fit with ideals and when they confront and confirm that they identify with their original gender the parent who wanted the change in the first place rejects the child. both messages fit far to well
You can’t be forced to be trans. There are children who were born intersex and their parents decided to surgically alter them or give them hormones, there are children who are forced to outwardly present contrary to how they feel internally. Your second “plot” message is ridiculous.
@@ajjohnson5046 Well, as a fellow LGBTQ+ person I can imagine that there may be some people who might try to raise their kid to be trans. However, this is a lot more rare and unusual than certain groups would have you believe. There ARE bad parents who view their kids as playthings. Like, for example, there have been people who wanted a daughter so badly they forced their son to grow their hair out and wear dresses.
@@ajjohnson5046 If you can't be forced to be trans, then what do you call it when parents alter their child's gender through puberty blockers and forced surgeries to alter their bodies, all without considering how it would affect them?
@@ArthurRex131 I call that child abuse, but you still can’t be forced to be trans. The situation you’re describing would be a cis child being abused. Not a child being forced to be trans. If you’re going by the exact translation of being transgender then yes someone could be forced to express a gender opposite to what they were assigned and identify with, but they wouldn’t typically define themselves as trans as a result. Someone could force me into a bra and only refer to me as she/her but I wouldn’t say I was a woman.
@@cledgefenrir5681 or Nora Vincent, she lived as a man and after living like a man for years, she killed herself David Vincent killed himself a few years after learning what happened to him and there's plenty of others who have posted about their regrets in transitioning Their 40% suicide rate has more to do with regret and pain from the surgeries and pills they have to take for the rest of their lives than it being about society killing them in the streets
i think klyden took it so poorly because of self hate, and Bortus took it so well because of his love for Klyden and his child, regardless of sex/gender
Kylden was just as much a victim, think about it, he'd been raised to hate the very thing he was.
@@LilKumStainzz youre not wrng
Still, I want Bortus to Divorce Klyden while Medical staff is not around to save him.
True, but I think it's deeper than that also. After doing what was expected of him for so long, I don't think he can face the idea that he could have lived differently all this time.
@@LilKumStainzz
Like a lot of trans people are irl. It’s the same message just done a little bit differently.
When the Orville went from being a parody of Star Trek to a true successor
Parody, to homage, to successor.
@@liesdamnlies3372 Nicely put
It's a shame season 4 hasn't been approved for production.
@@Stoned_Coyote Not yet anyway. MacFarlane is still interested in continuing it, and he's dealt with being cancelled before (same thing happened to Family Guy). Hopefully he and his colleagues can wrangle another season or two. It was just getting good. :
I like it. Once it started taking itself seriously, the show got really good.
Fantastic scene. Bortus speaks first, admitting the truth faster. He speaks plainly, not trying to couch his words in cultural ideology but as a guilty parent to his child. And at the end, he's the only one who can still look his daughter in the face with humility and compassion. Then there's Klyden, trailing behind him with frantic emotion, desperate to preserve his cultural attitudes to save face, and storming out unable to be in the same room with either of them.
I think Bortus was quiet at first since he tried to give Klyden a chance to come clean but when we he was hesitant and lying, Bortus knew he had to step up
I think for Klyden it's deeper, he knows what Topa is going through having gone through them himself, and he clings to the traditions as being right because it's the only way he can justify why he had to go through the pain he did growing up knowing he's not right.
@@edwarddeguzman3258 This factor is part of the reason why I still like Klyden despite the awful things he's done. He's a living embodiment of the cruel callousness the Moclans display toward their own. Despite being in the same position as Topa from birth, Klyden became as traditional and norm-serving as all of their society, probably to cope with the pain of his "birth deformity," and then he sires a daughter. Then a stop-motion children's show convinces his husband that it's okay for their child not to receive the same treatment as every other female child, their government has to force him and the rest of the Union to perform it, Moclus' foremost philosopher turns out to be an unaltered female, and as they grow older, Topa decides to reverse on the sex-change and live as a female. Really, life has got to be like a conservative's nightmare for Klyden, and the whole time, he HAS to be wondering if his life is valid.
@@theguyinthecorner605 really is a good season
becasue bortus belives in mocklan honor.
2:37, for someone as seemingly emotionless as Bortus is, an outburst like this speaks volumes to his character’s feelings in this scene. Mad at himself, mad at his husband, mad at his own people, but has nothing but patience and calmness when speaking with Topa. Honestly so much depicted in a mere 5 seconds. Genuinely well done.
Bortus is the ideal in this scenario. Supports the kids as much as possible, tries to work with the other parent as much as he can but ultimately chooses his kid over this partner, not an easy decision to act on but he does it whilst making sure Topa knows she is worthy and loved.
@@dm121984 unrealistic. this girl is basically never safe to walk on her own planet, she will literally be spit on. she will ether have to spend her life on a ship around no other mocluns, or at most a small few that dont have the same opinions are most of the planet. this is a species that kills their females at birth or secretly changes their gender. Bortus, is speaking from a idealistic land of dreams. while klyden knows exactly, whats awaiting her if she goes down this path. the scorn the loneliness the hatred, he tried to make it so that she would never have to go through that. because he knows first hand.
@@soulsreaper7145 It was _not her parents' choice_ whether she transition back to her birth sex. She understood what her society felt about the matter. She knew her choices. She did not lack awareness of how Moclans treat women.
She made her own decision about what to do with her own body. As was her right. And she made that decision with the blessing of her father, Bortus.
Also near the end you can also feel the tention of Bortus being "i’ve made a mistake, and i’m sorry" even without words
@@soulsreaper7145 and why does that mean she is not worthy of existing as she is? Women have been treated as lesser for centuries. It may not be as extreme as on their planet, but change has to happen somewhere anyway.
Other women in their culture exist. Straight men there exist. They are a society built on discriminating against those people, and eventually those people are going to find a life of their own or fight for change in their homelands. Idealism has its place because, without it, nobody would ever fight for a better tomorrow.
Bortus is right to show compassion to his child. Klyden is fair in having mixed feelings about it as a victim of their society who has been forced into a world of self-hatred, but needs to realise that this is not his or his child's fault.. it's the society that told them their existences were wrong, and it's the society that needs to adapt to the fact that women deserve a right to exist as they are without living in fear of societal discrimination.
Who else finds it kind of insane that in this age, we're getting a touching and progressive trans allegory from _Seth McFarlane_ of all people.
No kidding. Kind of a wild transition from Family Guy to this, you can tell which is the passion project.
This is the reverse trans allegory. This is showing that what people are doing today is wrong.
Depends on what you mean by progressive. But yes, don't mess with gender, it is set in stone, unless we develop some new technology
@@steelbear2063 the show has no subtlety with it’s theme and who it represents but somehow you still missed the point
@Steel Bear Dude this is about being trans and society forcing you to be something you're not, that's the point
Bortus is an excellent mate. He fought so hard to not have Topa be changed it almost ruined his relationship with Klyden. When confronted though he shared an equil measure of the blame instead of letting resentment cloud his mind and hurt Klyden. Good guy bortus
2:37 I JUMPED when Bortus snapped at Klyden
Yeah it took me completely off guard I don’t think I’d ever heard bortis truly angry before this
My favorite scene 😂😂😂🎉🎉Klyden was always a pain in the neck to me even before this happened.
He showed some tough love to his partner who is likely living with the fact that he himself was like Topa, but came to be indoctrinated by the society he was raised in, contending with the fact that just cause it was common practice and socially acceptable didn't make it morally right.
This exploration of values is why I always loved the star trek series, it held a mirror to our own society in a way, but like a fun house mirror where we do not recognize that we are viewing ourselves from a different point of view. Helping to remove the bias we hold for ourselves, our race, our species, our society.
Look I read the comments and knew there be an outburst, but still I'm shocked as F when it came out
I gotta commend the young actress for playing the role so well.
They were phenomenal. Really good choice for the role.
I was very VERY concerned about how they would approach this plot line. I thought it was the one massive red flag in the series.
They more then proved me wrong.
Fantastic, fearless writing.
Fundamentally, it is a crude work around for our current transgender issues as in this fictional case, it is the birth gender identity that is being asserted not a gender identity contrary to the physical birth gender. In a way, this is a round about way to deliver a social comment around the current bias of some in our society.
@@johnwang9914 It is crude, and you're not wrong. However, I do want to point out that some trans people were born with an ambiguous visible gender (known as intersex), and were assigned a gender and operated on to make that gender fit. Not all intersex people are trans, but some trans people are intersex.
@@mahna_mahna sounds like its a little irrelevant to this situation. Since the diffrence is with perfect and imperfect knowledge
@@electricangel4488 I think it's highly relevant. And I'm not sure what you mean by "perfect" knowledge in this case. We're talking about how someone feels in both this fictional example and in the real world.
@@mahna_mahna knowledge of the parents. Topa parents know all factors
A person with such body later on getting body disphoria is a chance. Ussualy getting a surgery to aline it to the dna xy or xx works. But that doesnt mean it doesnt happen that people with it get body dismorphia.
Bortus did well to apologize. I think you really mess kids up if you never admit you were wrong like that.
This season shouldn't have been hidden away on Hulu. Episodes like this should have been viewed by others that don't have streaming services.
it's because I think Fox cancelled them so Hulu picked up where they left off hence why it's on hulu which was better and worse for the series in my opinion. better because they have a bigger budget and we get more of the series but worse because it became more of a serious show instead of a comedy
@@noobkiller11790 As they say, "Who pays the Piper calls the tune."
@@noobkiller11790 I just finished looking at this season yesterday and that's the first thing came in my mind was it seemed like a lot of the comedy got taken out and it became more of a serious show which isn't bad but the comedy helps set it apart from Star Trek and Stargate
It's on Disney Plus now so it's gaining some traction.
@@warlockgod66 This season was the original vision of the show for the creator but Fox network forced him to pitch the show as a sci fi parody as they wanted it to be like his other successful show Family Guy thinking it could be a hit too.
So intense and emotional you can feel the punches to the gut. You can just see the pain in all of them.
These scenes make his redeeming arc even better.
whose redeeming arc? Bortis did nothing wrong
@@theemperiumofkek1362 Not Bortus, but Klyden.
@@theemperiumofkek1362 klyden's redeeming arc
This kind of stuff happens IRL, if you have an intersex medical condition, parents will be instructed to pick a sex, and then never tell the kid they're different. Sometimes doctors won't even tell parents. For obvious reasons, this comes from the same feelings as anti-trans, but they are in fact different things.
In this case, the fear of admitting her identity to her parents and the shame she was accidentally taught are similar things.
Not so different really, by choosing an intersex child's sex you can in fact make them trans, the same way if you alter a cis person's sex they too can become trans. That's really all it is.
Many intersex individuals are broadly speaking trans as a result of such medical interference by parents or doctors, the trans condition in intersex individuals proves the idea of transgender folks experiences even though they have no record of being intersex that we are aware of. Not everything is so easily seen when it comes to human physiology. Some intersex folks have no idea they are intersex and neither did doctors, not all intersex conditions are observable to the naked eye.
It should still be the child's choice once they are old enough.
@@roguejester4986 sometimes its not possible... not every case is simple like that... if life is on the line you want the child to live? or die?
@@Alkharia666 It is still their choice regardless.
A infant, or any child below the age of 5, wouldn’t be able to choose. They don’t have that cognitive ability.
You definitely hate Klyden in this scene, but then you realize that everything Topa is describing, probably fits perfectly with the living hell Klyden has been in all his life. Honestly it's no wonder he's such a misogynistic ass all the time. So might we all be if we had to live such a massive lie.
Moclan society is a misogynistic society taken to it's extreme conclusion. Where women are not needed for procreation and thus seen as unnecessary.
Well said
You can very easily apply this intersex people discovering the truth about their birth and I am sure that was on purpose. Also having a species that are all male, points out weirdness of genders and their respective assumed roles. Orville, you are making my inner Star Trek nerd so happy.
I was just thinking, what if the assumption that "all of the species are male" is just wrong, because their society enforce it? 🤔
The parents of intersex people have a very difficult decision. If they don't Make a decision, the child grows upon with health problems.
An example was in the Philippines. The "girl" grew up with female and male characteristics. At birth she presented more female. The parents and doctors didn't notice it.
But during puberty, the male gonads overpowered her female gonads. She wanted to be female, but is now infertile.
But there are questions. What if her parents knew? What if they chose male and she grew up wanting to be female? What if they chose female, and then she wanted to be male?
It's a hard decision.
@@rickrollrizal2747 No, some healthy intersex people are forced to have surgeries and sometimes that may cause a problem later on because it doesn't align with their mind.
@@robin9759 again, as I said it's. A hard decision. The rarenesa of the condition doesn't help. But these are diagnosed individuals.
Not the same as those liberals pretending to be of another gender because it makes them special.
And them pretending makes it bad for the real intersex cause they get included in the backlash.
@@rickrollrizal2747 No it isn't? God, I was agreeing until you starting saying people are pretending. I understand some people say so for the content, but gender dysphoria is an actual thing that's not the same as intersex, a gender that expresses both male and female with no lean. It's easier to do but seeing intersex as a "condition" and not how someone is makes more people opt to perform surgeries on these infants and more likely to turn out that way.
What breaks my heart is that you can hear topa hold back crying
from parody ot a successor - this is just wonderful
From parody? I'm pretty sure they messed up the "Parody" and accidentally create a Star Trek Successor
It is not just the message that is important but also how the message is delivered. That can only be achieved by mainly good writers and directors who care about quality vs quantity. Sure actors are important, but it is the former two who create the scene in the first place.
This show is a prime example of how to spread a message without preaching. The trick is to show that both sides of the issue have merit, and not demonize one side or the other.
@@ArthurRex131
It never showed the merit of moclan’s sexist beliefs, if anything from what I’ve seen, it’s shown as a huge mistake beginning to end.
Not Moclan society. I'm talking about Klyden specifically. He made some salient points about how Topa would face relientless bullying and virulent hatred if she weren't made to undergo the sex change surgery. It's kind of undermined by the fact that Topa has no need nor desire to ever see Moclus, but it's still a valid point.@@Toneill029
The fact that Klyden felt the need to lie and try to beat around the bush while Bortus was straightforward with Topa says a lot about each one of their characters
2:32 - 2:55
I think she just picked her favorite parent
Was she ever told that her "papa" was born female as well?
No Bortis never reveals this information and even Isaac figures it out and Bortis says that's for him to decide to tell. Isaac is like I understand. Your child decided to tell me about her situation is that alright?
Yes. She has the right to tell anyone she wishes.
I understand.
Isaac proceeds to help her undergo the Gender reassignment surgery.
@@charlesacker9174
Issac the trans ally we need in this day and age.
@@Toneill029Nothing to do with trans, there are no trans there, only parents/society FORCING physical change unto a baby child that didn't decide anything.
@@Toneill029 Actually this would be a de-transition, because Topa was born a girl and was given transition surgery at birth.
@@TheGrimmCommoner Still well within the trans experience broadly, as Topa would serve as a perfect example of an intersex child who was surgically altered as an infant, something we do not do with infants who are not visibly intersex, which intersex was/is viewed as a condition that needs to be corrected to alter them to be in line with social expectations, which then branches into trans related issues trans folks also face.
Intersex children sometimes grow up to be trans as a result of these surgical alterations at infancy.
So while yes at face value Topa would be de-transitioning from our perspective of the issue, in Moclan society she's transitioning from the socially accepted norm of male. Which in our society would be cisgendered, to the socially unaccepted female, which in our society is broadly transgendered.
Topa serves as a representation of women's, intersexed, and trans issues, in a society that is misogynistic taken to it's extreme conclusion.
The fact that only yourself can choose your gender and no one else, not even your parents, it's such a strong message.
Irony is parents expect their kids to tell the truth but not the parents ( if any parents)
YOU WILL BE SILENT!!!
When Bortus snaps, he snaps HARD.
Orville fan have been waiting for this possible episode in the future
I love how nearly everyone is missing that this is about those who are born intersex and have "corrective" surgery forced on them to adhere to social norms.
This is about a persons gender not matching their external or perceived sex. It doesn’t need to be only for one type of person.
It works for many things I think. It works as a metaphor for intersex and trans people.
Eh. I think it can be very broadly applied to literally anyone experiencing issues involving gender.
@@ajjohnson5046 gender = sex just cuz some pedo in the 60s tried to change the word doesnt mean its real
gender is a synonym for sex
@@ajjohnson5046 idk what you mean, gender is synonymous with sex. But Topa is a female and she knew it… so… everything matches
Ironically, Klyden of all people could have instantly resolved this entire plot line by being honest. For instance:
Klyden: “To leave you as you were would have been…”
Topa: “…unthinkable.”
Klyden: _”Unbearable!_ For you! I was born female, Topa. Moclus does not tolerate females. I know how it feels to be resented. I know how it feels to be rejected, shamed, mocked, hated, to be considered an abomination for no other reason than because I _existed._ I did not want that for you. I did not want you to experience the _despair_ I felt, nor the hatred I felt for myself that was forced upon me. I wanted a better life for you, and I gave you the best chance you could possibly have had for a Moclan. I tried to spare you from despair so that you would not suffer as I have suffered!”
@bsgfan1, I'm confused with this comment. Did I miss something?Klyden didn't know he was born female until he was an adult and was never seen as a female to receive mistreatment. He in fact was not fond of females and since he never identified as a female, he was glad he had the surgery done to him.
@@Pianobug007 In fact, I remember an episode where Topa was picking up on his people's hypermisogeny and actively talking down to the other girls in his class, and he'd been picking up that crap from Klyden.
This can’t be applied to Klyden because he never truly experienced the prejudice Moclans women experienced, since he underwent the surgery when he was a baby, like Topa was. He only found out very recently in his life, once Bortus had joined the Union and Klyden was examined by a Union doctor
That would’ve been a better line but that still doesn’t change the fact that Topa has every universal right to be what God and Nature created her to be.
Why should she be turned into something she isn’t all for an imperfect society that views the female gender as an inferior gender?
@@lochness5524But Topa felt like a female inside, even after the surgery. Is it possible that Klyden feels like a female too but doesn't act on it to avoid problems?
About time Bortus told Klyden to stfu.
This discussion on gender is always heated but here it is done pretty well and i like one thing if you have a society where one gender is all there is problems always will arise no matter which gender male or female you need both and changing the orginal gender your born with without consent is wrong because a child doesnt understand and cant until they mature to an age where they can feel and know their body well enough make to make proper decisions.
lol no the point being presented is that no matter what you do to the outside you are still the same on the inside
trans woman = man
trans man = woman
cant change biology its just reality
True
Only that the Moklans don't need both genders. It's difficult to imagine that situation.
@@jasperzanovich2504 What only shows that they´re not a male species, they´re...hermaphrodites? Well Bortus laid an egg that Klyden fertilized and if they are both of the same sex...then the discussion that they had on the Orville about a child with 3 legs would rather be about a child with only 1.
Then it's wonderful that no medical practitioner suggests just giving young children the ability to transition without extensive psychotherapeutic intervention over the course of years.
Parody is at its best when it takes itself seriously.
Glad he chose to be honest he realised those beliefs of his people were not worth lying to his child
KLYDEN YOU WILL BE SILENT! 😂
Amazing acting. This was such an emotional intense scene.
Klyden seems like a parent that who tries to defend Intersex genital mutilation or male genital mutilation (circumcision). Once they have been called out.
circumcision is not mutilation.
@ArthurRex131 To injured, disfigure or change by irreparably removing healthy tissue.
The Foreskin (present in males and females) is healthy tissue. There is also the frenulum, which is a densely packed band of nerves that connects the foreskin to the glands
The foreskin helps by protecting the glans, improving immunological health through flora production, and maintaining a proper pH, sensitivity through the Meissner Corpuscles, natural lubrication provided by sebaceous glands and natural bodily mechanics during intercourse.
@@MJCP4while I don’t think I would ever do it to myself, and wouldn’t do it to my son without his consent, other parents have their own choices to make.
@@BrowncoatGofAZbut is it their choice if it isn’t a medical need? No child *needs* to be circumsized
@@lunaeclipse7717 from a logical POV, no. But from a cultural POV, it’s probably different.
I really need to finish my rewatch so I can get to the new stuff.
a lot of people will think this is anti trans, but in reality its as pro trans as it can get. your gender doesn't matter whats in your pants or genes, but as Topa stated inside she felt differently.
oh i have heard form other people that this is a detransition metaphor and im just like... bro, the point, way over ur head!
who the hell thinks any of the Moclan story line is anti trans? How? My critique is that it is too on the nose pro trans and the conservative point of view sometimes is so simplified that it becomes a strawman agrument. I think in earlier seasons the Moclan mainstream point of view was more nuanced and a better representation of real life bigotry. In the end of this episode I really wanted an answer from Klyden to "what satisfaction does it bring you to follow the Moclan way that you are willing to lose your family for?". My bet would be "Because if I admit that Topa is a female, I have suffered for years for nothing."
I think it is very neutral it can be interpreted both ways, and that is what a good writer can do is tread down that thin line and tell a good story.
I think on the surface it give the "parents force kids to be trans" vibe(because authoritative Transphobic parents thinks every parent is as authoritative as them) but when you look at it from the fact that it's an alien culture the important part is what Topa feels, she feels she is a woman and she has to be a woman despite what her surroundings have told her her entire life.
@@DarkhalfBreed that makes sense honestly.
Forced transition. I love how the writers have approached this cultural issue that is such a hot topic today. By reversing the norms of the situation, i.e. a child wanting to transition to another gender verses a child forced to transition to a different gender, they are able to make us think about the subject through a reverse lense. Awesome scene.
Wasn't thus made like 6 years ago?
@@Ranbo_dogno this show us relatively recent
@snap2cb777 but i saw vids from 6 years ago
@@Ranbo_dog it says 1 year for me
Very emotionally moment, Brotus was a chad father.
Bortus is my favorite character in this show, no doubt!
I love how this fictional situation is technically the opposite of what the audience feels like it represents.
This is an example of someone de-transitioning, since she was in fact born biologically female, surgically altered to be physically male, but psychologically still aligned with her original biological sex, making her want to be restored to that state.
While likely not intentional, this is a surprisingly counter-cultural message today.
Such an important amazing scene I love this show so much
Whoever the actor was for Topa nailed it.
These male actors have brilliant voices.
the thing about this is that it’s not that the parents are transphobic and don’t want their child to be a girl, it’s that the parents didn’t know any better and thought what they thought was right, they clearly love their child and could love her unconditionally.
Using the word transphobic would not really help in this case due to the fact that they are a mano gendered species.
Even for them the word mail has little meaning for a species that only has one gender, and that gender can do the actions as well as the biological effects of both a human comparison of female and male.
To them a female born from their genetics will be comparable to a human born with no arms or possibly even five eyes.
They're transphilic, not transphobic. They wouldn't make a child transition if they were transphobic, idiot.
"transphobic" bro if anyone is transphobic here it's the child
she's the one complaining about the alteration
you ain't gon see a trans person doing that
@@GuiltyFaTThe species has a female gender, it's just discriminated so heavily against in society it is considered saving face to "correct" your rare female child to male.
I have not seen this show, but from just this scene I can tell its clearly pro-trans, criticizing a culture for literally assigning a gender onto a child against their will. Its a little heady admittedly, but that's Stark Tre-I MEAN-the Orville for you!
It's a round about way of discussing transgender issue as Toba's birth gender is female and it is her asserting a psychologic female gender identity from her birth despite the physical gender reassignment. This is pretty much the opposite of transgender issues where the psychologic gender identity does not match the physical gender from birth. But this is all to get around the shallow minds that are antagonistic to our current transgender issues.
@@johnwang9914 It takes after the star trek tradition of round about ways of handling it. Dax and gay issues for example
@@johnwang9914 This is often done to make people who wouldn't otherwise be able to conceptualize the situation more able to understand it. For example, the movie "White Man's Burden", or the episode of TNG "Angel One", where women are stronger and dominate over men (who have fewer rights).
Mean while also taking a crack at the idea of tansitioning children for the parent ideas
@@electricangel4488 Quite the difference between a cultural and legal requirement for an infant physical sex reassignment portrayed in this fiction and parents simply not forcing cultural norms onto a child's psychology. If there is any forcing of gender identity in our society, it is to be cis gender and this "forcing" is prevalent throughout society even in our advertising and media. No one forces their child to be transgender, if anything there is a lot of pressure to conform with societal norms.
How tf is a parody of a nearly half a century old show better than almost everything else on
That was coming ! It is a very difficult subject and still is a difficult one. In many ways. And perhaps that is now why I realize that a situation where the same matter might have been a complication in a different way for me. There was another colleague who I treated with curteousy and respect - a older sibling, where the younger sibling treated with unhappiness the choice of being respectful I made. Towards that older sibling - he was a she. And she wanted to be a he! That didn't endear the younger sibling to me. Who transferred that dislike to me. In other words, I got pilloried for being understanding. Bortus is going to face that from Klyden. I understand that now. And perhaps, that is why I ended up with the same problem, in an abstract way. Topa's own problems are also going to be very similar. Amazing to think that this series has brought up the revelation of this to me. I am content as to how I am. But so difficult to try to keep an open mind to Diversity.
At 2:37 Bortus went BEAST mode on Klyden!!
Well Topa has every right to be true to herself rather than what some backwards small minded society wants.
It’s really interesting how the Orville transformed from kind of a slapstick comedy to damn near a drama. Hats off the MacFarlane.
Wanting to protect your child from a hostile social environment is one thing, but it is inevitable that a child grows up and changes. If that child realizes the decision you made for them and wants it reversed, all you should do is be grateful they feel safe enough to do so. Because you did protect them, and if your child trusts you enough to tell you they want it to be different, that means there’s still part of them that hopes you will still keep them safe. And so often we get thrown away instead.
You can so tell bortus hated just hated that he did this to his daughter I say daughter it was eating at him inside
When I say that Bortus is the character that made me love this show...
2:36 "KLYDEN YOU WILL BE SILENT!"
So justified.
The lack of music in this scene makes it so powerful. I’ve seen it in shorts but this is the first time I’m seeing it in its entirety and true form. They did good on this.
Truly a stellar episode. 10/10, one of the best episodes of any show ever. Bortus is the father we should all have.
After watching it I thought this show had finally settled into its rhythm for season 3... And then the next episode was a stinking pile of garbage, 1/10, had to headcannon it away to be able to keep watching.
What a rollercoaster of a series.
That line "we.love you for everything you ARE, and WERE." Makes me tear up, that is just such a goddamned sweet sentiment my poor little heart cant take it
When I first started watching The Orville, I went in expecting a light-hearted sci-fi comedy. What I wasn't expecting was heartbreaking scenes like this.
Is this inspired by the true story of a boy who was forced to live as a girl despite being born a boy and he committed suicide??
EDIT: makes more sense to be about those crappy anti-intersex surgeries
Maybe
More likely an issue involving intersexed people. It common in that situation where the parents and doctors decide the sex and operate on the baby and not tell them.
@@gerardomunoz6725 ohhh that makes more sense
as the show demonstrated, its less about what she was born as and more how she felt inside. no matter whats inside your pants, or your genes, everyone will still have a gender identity that will show through no matter what.
@@napalaprentice I have always seen this story arc as a simple idea that everyone transforms to suit their political viewpoints. It's not a pro-Trans or an anti-Trans argument.
It's simply "Do not make decisions for your children that will alter their entire existence". Examples: do not perform a sex-change operation on kids younger than 18, and do not forbid those kids from taking said operations when they are mature enough.
I really hope someone from Star Trek has watched this scene. this is how you write issues involving gender identity when you want it done with caring, compassion and love. not the garbage they have been sprouting lately
Gender identity doesn’t exist
Dude, like the beginning of the Orville was a Star Trek parody while honoring it in some aspects but then it pulls these Serious Ass Moments that make me love this show even more. Props to Seth Macfarlane man, wish we got a Season 4
Does Topa ever find out that Klyden was born female, too?
A shocking revelation
I really thought it was Kelly who told Topa
Yeah, the Bortus reveal was quite unexpected.
Wow. What a great performance by the child actor.
God, i remember how the egg episode with bortus first seemed like "alien joke" throwaway bit.
Who knew it would be the focal crux to an entire 2 seasons
I honestly have to wonder more about Moclan biology. Do they give hormones to the females that are changed? Or are the sexes more similar to one another than we think? And just a few organs need to be altered? Klyden was born female and hasn’t been seen taking hormones. Is there an implant that converts female hormones to male? Or forces the body to produce more male over female?
From the appearance they have medical technology advanced enough to actually perform sex change operations. We're talking about civilizations here capable or complete cell cloning and accelerated cell regeneration. Additionally the sexes, even in humans are far more alike that people realize when you look at things from a genetic viewpoint. The male sex is simply a small set of active genes on the Y chromosome which is programmed to take specific acts during development, where as the female sex contains no additional intformation (the two ending sex chromosomes are basically holding the same genes, just one set of expressions inherited from the father and another of the mother, there's no additional information there). Effectively ALL humans are by default female unless those small number of genes on the Y chromosome are present and other receptor genes are functioning.
It's not hard to imagine, given the demonstrated technology that they could manipulate the genes in such a matter to have them express, or even possibly use donor material from a parent to effect expression. In short they have atual sex change, not what we have now which is simply cosmetic procedures.
Now that's intense
They all committed to this scene. good acting all around
When the comedy people makes a move to fix home problems you know they do the very best.
They did a john monney on her.
Where the F*CK is season 4 already?!*
(I have not heard anything about it getting either announced or cancelled as of posting)
I want another season of The Orville!
I would argue that this is even more a metaphor against forced transitions and early gender experiments than anything else.
Which is a good thing to advocate against, because those procedures were absolutely barbaric and had tragic outcomes more often than not.
Yes. Have you ever heard of the John/Joan case? Absolutely horrific
@@eldritchcupcakes3195 Yeah… truly blood curdling.
Yeah surgery done to intersex people mostly I think
@@eldritchcupcakes3195 I think the John/Joan case proves that gender identity is neurological and really represents the experience of transgender people. Despite never being told he was born male, John identified as such and always felt uncomfortable being raised as a girl.
@@fabplays6559 yeah it’s pretty definitive
Btw who is acting as Topa in that scene? Is that the same actress who plays female Topa? Or is that their original actor?
Same actress as female Topa. They digitally altered her voice to sound more "masculine" until the surgery was done.
Caitlyn Jenner
the actress for topa is amazing
They created a whole plot about an individual being trans. But within the context of the species, it makes sense. Even NuTrek wouldn't dare do this. They would say this person is trans and leave it like that. They wouldn't show parents denying their children or lying to them. Trek does it under the guise of inclusion. The Orville uses it to tell stories that actually happen to people.
So, Gender isn't just a social construct
It's more than a feeling...
It never has been
No, gender is not a social construct. Gender roles are a social construct. Gender is neurological. Trans women are neurologically women. Trans men are neurologically men.
@@fabplays6559 gender was invented so it is a social construct
@@ozymandias8523
gender is far from a social construct or a learned thing
David Reimer got a botched circumcision that mutilated him, John Money (the sub-human) known for his views that gender was learned rather than innate Money persuaded the baby's parents that sex reassignment surgery would be in Reimer's best interest. At the age of 22 months, Reimer underwent an orchiectomy, in which his testicles were surgically removed. He was reassigned to be raised as female and his name changed from Bruce to Brenda. Money further recommended hormone treatment, to which the parents agreed. Money then recommended a surgical procedure to create an artificial vagina, which the parents refused.
According to John Colapinto's biography of David Reimer, starting when Reimer and his twin Brian were six years old, Money showed the brothers pornography and forced the two to rehearse sexual acts. Money would order David to get down on all fours and Brian was forced to "come up behind [him] and place his crotch against [his] buttocks". Money also forced Reimer, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. On "at least one occasion" Money took a photograph of the two children performing these acts When either child resisted Money, Money would get angry. Both Reimer and Brian recall that Money was mild-mannered around their parents, but ill-tempered when alone with them. Money also forced the two children to strip for "genital inspections"; when they resisted inspecting each other's genitals, Money got very aggressive. Reimer says, "He told me to take my clothes off, and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed, 'Now!' Louder than that. I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there shaking."
Money's rationale for his treatment of the children was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" "at thrusting movements and copulation" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money
This isn’t really that relevant but, funny enough…..female is the “default” gender, when we are developing inside our mothers, for a brief period we are all female, but later on some of us begin to take after our fathers male chromosome, thus, all males are a mutation/alteration of females, not the other way around, another example? A female doesn’t need a male chromosome, but a male needs a female chromosome, YY is not possible, XX is possible, but hey, I may be wrong, I’m not a scientist lol
I think we humans are more of a blanket not that female are the default ones but the basic human organism doesn't have boobs or penis is just a human without fully formed sex organs.
I love how brotus never hits klyden with the "i told you" or tried to rat out klyden and even in disagree ment reminds him that he still loves him, he said i love you and keeps true to his word even when its hard at times.
It's a fascinating way to explore intersex kids lives. People who aren't born inside the binary (roughly 4% of the population) but are routinely surgically altered to fit inside gender norms.
I really hope that's what they meant, considering it is almost a 1 to 1 experience of intersex kids.
Oh, this reminds me of the David Reimer story
I agree very Fearless writing to show what is going on in our world. Just because you are a parent does not mean you always know what is best for your child and can make irreversible and life-changing decisions for them.
At no point Bornus even attempted to put the blame on Klyden and he had every right to do it. Mad respect.
Topa may be an intersex analogy but she explains well why being transphobic is wrong as well.
"I may appear to be male but what is inside me still exists" is exactly how a trans woman pre transition would feel.
I wish that they kept the male actor for Topa then have the female actress come in after Topa regains her Proper Gender.
That defeats the entire story. She was born a girl, is a girl inside, so why use a male actor? In real life, when people undergo transition surgery, they don't change bodies - they are still using the body they are born with.
it's the same actor
@@rice_9027 Topa was portrayed by Blesson Yates in Season 2, then by Imani Pullum in Season 3.
This… THIS is how you cover trans issues. You don’t make it a ham fisted political rant, you make it a story. You make it play by the rules of the universe you have created.
I love how the transphobic person is, in fact, transgender himself.
I think that is very true to life, there ARE trans people struggline with internalised transphobia and Klyden really represents that.
Not exactly trans anything. You are ignoring the part where they force a sex change on a biological female to be male cause they society demands it to be all male.
He is trans and wants his daughter to be-trans male as him as their home planet culture think females are inferior, so they force girls to transition into males.
You can change what’s outside but what’s inside remains the same
I love this series, it ironically made me a Star Trek fan.
This is why i always felt bad for the trans kids.
Children today going to be doing this in the future
It's interesting how many commenters only see this from one pov....
That side eye tho. Lol
A way more poignant way to touch a topic as sensible as transgender issues than just putting a transgender character as discovery did. This is how you do it
True , especially since it is the representation on how trans supporters parents mutilate and manipulate their own innocent children to have the child of the gender they wanted instead of loving the child as he/she is.
The only difference is that in that serie , the choice is made out of love , in reality , the parents that do that to their children do it because the don't love their children and want them changed.
@LawnMower_gaming1 If you want your child to transition , then it means you don't accept your child for what he/she is , it then means you don't love your child .
Simple logic.
Also , a child doesn't want to transition , that has never happened and will never happen , it's always the gay male parents or the mother that forces them or manipulate them.
@@LawnMower_gaming1 a child doesn't understand the implications and the extreme damage to the body and mind transitioning means.
Parents make their child transition by force because they want them to be the other gender , because you don't accept that what he/she is.
A child will NEVER ever think of that unless pushed by his parents.
You say it yourself , you don't care , you do not love your child and your child will despise you once he/she will understand what you took.
Hide in shame , child abuser.
@@LawnMower_gaming1 a child doesn't understand the implications and the extreme damage to the body and mind transitioning means.
Parents make their child transition by force because they want them to be the other gender , because you don't accept that what he/she is.
A child will NEVER ever think of that unless pushed by his parents.
You say it yourself , you don't care , you do not love your child and your child will despise you once he/she will understand what you took.
Hide in shame , child abuser.
@@AdvancedKrizalid
A child will only want to transition after years of having the body screaming that he or she is someone else. Even then, as a parent, I would tell that child to be patient until mature enough to make a clear decision on the matter, to really think about it in the meantime, and to support that decision when the time comes.
Orville had its share of woke themes but they were handled extremely well. You could understand all of the characters perspectives and motivations, the nuances and the difficult choices. It reminded me in places of the original series and TNG. Far better than so many other shows out there that just cant help but beat you over the head constantly with "the message".
I’m not sure you know what woke means
@@kreigguardsman3355 but you know what I mean, so it doesn't matter
You can change the outside appearance all the live long day, but it's who you are on the inside, what you came into this world as, is YOUR TRUE SELF! McFarlane and these writers are brilliant! We need a final season.
That's an awful way to see this, lol. Trans people are female/male, whether they've a useless Y chromosome or not xD
As a trans woman I was both horrified by the forced gender change on a freakin kid but I very much felt Topa's pain when she said she was really a girl trapped in a boy's body. I felt that in my very soul. Kayden reminds me so much of both my parents who didn't want to understand how I felt and only cared about what they "believed". I love Star Trek.
you know this plot can be taken a few ways, of the 2 i see the first is the way most people see, this is a trans child who wants to identify as the opposite gender and one of the parents is harshly rejecting it. but then there is the opposite. this child was forced to be trans by their parent to better fit with ideals and when they confront and confirm that they identify with their original gender the parent who wanted the change in the first place rejects the child. both messages fit far to well
You can’t be forced to be trans. There are children who were born intersex and their parents decided to surgically alter them or give them hormones, there are children who are forced to outwardly present contrary to how they feel internally. Your second “plot” message is ridiculous.
@@ajjohnson5046 Well, as a fellow LGBTQ+ person I can imagine that there may be some people who might try to raise their kid to be trans. However, this is a lot more rare and unusual than certain groups would have you believe. There ARE bad parents who view their kids as playthings.
Like, for example, there have been people who wanted a daughter so badly they forced their son to grow their hair out and wear dresses.
@@ajjohnson5046 search: truly - both of our children are trans
Like it happens
@@ajjohnson5046 If you can't be forced to be trans, then what do you call it when parents alter their child's gender through puberty blockers and forced surgeries to alter their bodies, all without considering how it would affect them?
@@ArthurRex131 I call that child abuse, but you still can’t be forced to be trans. The situation you’re describing would be a cis child being abused. Not a child being forced to be trans. If you’re going by the exact translation of being transgender then yes someone could be forced to express a gender opposite to what they were assigned and identify with, but they wouldn’t typically define themselves as trans as a result. Someone could force me into a bra and only refer to me as she/her but I wouldn’t say I was a woman.
more of the anti trans crowd could learn something here.
except she was actually born female
Have you ever heard of the story of David Reimer?
@@cledgefenrir5681 or Nora Vincent, she lived as a man and after living like a man for years, she killed herself
David Vincent killed himself a few years after learning what happened to him
and there's plenty of others who have posted about their regrets in transitioning
Their 40% suicide rate has more to do with regret and pain from the surgeries and pills they have to take for the rest of their lives than it being about society killing them in the streets
I dunno, highlighting the issue of transitioning children…transitioning children… not so pro trans as you think booboo.