For anyone who hasn’t seen the whole episode, when Isaac commits suicide he makes a recording telling the crew on how to make the Orville as efficient as possible, trying to do as much as he possibly can after he’s dead. In his own way he wrote a suicide note, it’s haunting.
It's hard not to see how Issac's "the crew will be more efficient without me." and someone committing suicides "they will be better off without me." reasoning are almost identical. Hopefully someone struggling with those demons sees the error of their thinking.
Reminds me of a clip from a small-scale standup show I saw recently. I think the comedian asked what the audience thought of immigration, and got a bunch of angry yelling about going home or not wanting them, and then when the ruckus died down someone spoke up "my husband became an official citizen of the US this morning." Suddenly they all cheered.
@@alansmithee419proves that hate is taught/used to focus us on destroying each other instead of those who propagate the division. There is no division..all human.
I believe people would be better off without me....very thought provoking that Isaac through logic, came to the same choice that too many people came to through emotion
It's a conclusion I've come to many a time too... though I'm thankful that whenever I've come to that point, it was thoughts of those around me and how they would feel that stopped me going through with it.
@@ShamrockParticle Redditors are also, ironically, mostly made up of many neurodivergent people who hyperfocus on these things - similar to Isaac, minus the compassion. While we can only speculate, it makes better sense as a writer to intentionally inject hints of humanity into Isaac, because it's what makes audiences happy to see. Ergo, he has grown because that's what the writers wanted it to look like for character development.
@@thesidneychanand also isaac showed himself breaking out of his programming to save the kids in the season 2 finale so i don’t think its very far fetched to think he’s developing humanity/emotion
One of my favourite aspects of Isaac's arc on The Orville is that they're pretty clearly implying that Isaac has something - however minuscule - resembling "emotions" that he is unable to fully comprehend or grapple with, but they don't slop it in melodrama or have some big reveal of him suddenly "realising" that he has feelings. It's subtext through and through.
100% The episode where he briefly get's emotions sort of confirms it. He already had everything he needed to experience emotions, the researcher just gave him the machinery to express it. The way being around Dr. Fin literally alters his programming so he no longer functions without her, how protective he is of her children, how much he wants to be accepted by the crew... The way his entire race could no longer deal with the weight of slavery. He is an emotional being, his emotions are just different than biological ones.
This clip really hurt me emotionally... because I really needed to hear that line. I felt a renewed sense of life... the biggest thing anyone could ever learn... is patience.
And others are hurt by it because its so baseless. I feel insulted by the Shows claim that Sui-ide is always pointless. Dying Help will never be a Human-Right if this naive Mindset isnt questioned.
@@loturzelrestaurant In a future where most ailments are able to be cured, solved, then this sentiment is more relevant in that context. However, if someone is suffering in pain they deserve the right to end their own life on their terms.
As much as I loved her as Cassedy Yates on Star Trek: Deep Space 9, she truly found the role she was meant to play as Dr. Finn. If only she had this much development as Cassedy Yates.
As a side fun fact, Penny Jerald Johnson also appeared very shortly as a primitive alien on TNG, during the episode Homeward. I recognized her pretty quickly, it was a nice little surprise.
As a neurodivergent person I really can't perceive or react to emotions that well so Robotic characters like Isaac help me, so this scene with Claire was both a teer and a reality jerker and I really trust her advice so in due time I hope problems will be better in due time.
What I appreciate about this scene is that it would have been really easy in the hands of a less capable writer to make it so Isaac suddenly had an emotional response despite everything we’ve learned. Instead he doesn’t. He remains the same emotionless machine that came to, in his mind, a very logical mechanical conclusion that followed his Kaylon programming. When a program or aspect of a machine is unable to adequately perform it’s function, or worse actually detrimentally affects the system as a whole, it must be deleted. Here, thanks to Dr. Finn, we see him take a large step towards understand what being human means. It means that you must always consider the possibility of change. There is no way of knowing with certainty what the future may hold, no matter your degree of intelligence. For all those that struggle with their place in the world today. Never forget that the future can always ALWAYS be better. Please don’t give up.
That's something that separates him from the other Kaylons. They decided to go to war with life because they couldn't see their future dealings with biological being any different than what they'd had in the past. They had no hope. When they despaired, they killed others. When Isaac despaired he killed himself.
This scene goes out to anyone who is feeling so depressed that they who ever consider suicide, hope this will change your mind and try to endure another day of life
What a tear-jerker. Season 3 made me bawl more times than the first 2 seasons combined. It packed an emotional wallop and pierced you right through the heart. Seth is such a genius! I admire him so much!
I've had almost this exact conversation with myself too many times to count. The part of me that wanted to die always felt like the most logical part, when in reality it was just the part of me that was ready to give up.
@@XEN-ZOMBIEif only it worked like that. At my very core, I've always hated being alive. I'm 42 and I would say that my life has been about 99.9999995% pain and sadness. It's hard to explain to people when the world that you wake up to every day is a toxic wasteland that demands so much mental energy just to block out the pain.
@@Johnston212 In the first 4 years of my life I was graped, tortured, buried alive and psychologically abused every day. My life has not improved much since. So if anyone can understand it would be me. And I still say this is perspective. 40 years here too. A few small changes can make the world of difference to that perspective. My life felt like it wasn't worth living one day and happy the next. We also focus on the negative because that has the most effect - ignoring every positive experience. I refuse to believe you have never had a positive experience - otherwise you require serious Psychological help as this is a disorder and not a comment on the world at large. An assumption I am making is that you are not starving to death currently - you clearly have access to the internet. Which is leaps and bounds above what some have to live with. Look at children laughing and playing while simultaneously starving. Perspective. PS: I am currently on my second day with zero food.
@@Johnston212 No, not at all. My only point here is perspective. I am sure that if you sit and really think the good will start to even the scales. Allow pain and suffering to temper you like steel. This too shall pass. And the next time you feel it - it will sting less and less. But only if you continue to fight. Or it will defeat you.
The Orville is genius. The characters are easy to understand and connect with, and I would rather the series continue. But, what I want even more is for The Orville to remain free-range genius, and not be milked to death like Star Trek, Star-Gate, Star Wars, and so many other creations are just for a corporation's steady income. I don't want creators feeling tethered to a monster that they start to resent, just so their employers can feed the fanbase with another hit of "XYZYX". I'd rather see passion projects from creators, and not "Stage 5 following the formula of XYZYX" Old series need to pass away naturally so that there's room for new series and creations to grow and develop
This episode was difficult for me to watch. I kept stopping it because it hit close to home. However, this was an amazing episode that dealt with the Aftermath of the Battle for Earth from a different perspective.
Hmm! Interesting. A lack of emotions can be construed as feelings. Isaac does regret the actions but has no direct context of examination of this! Hence his attempt to take his own life.
hearing dr claire's speech about people who take their own lives not being able to see change in the future made me cry. ive been feeling despondent about my own life for a while and that gave me hope.
I feel insulted by the Shows claim that Sui-ide is always pointless. Dying Help will never be a Human-Right if this naive Mindset isnt questioned. Even thoguh it absolutely stand to reason to not force People who are absolute sure and have been sure for an expanded amount of time that they dont wanna live anymore; let alone the evn-more-obvious Case of Disease existing;
@@colinmerritt7645 You seem unable to diffeenciate between 'Me, the Ego, Myself' and 'People Many'. You just talked AS IF your personal Experience speaks for all of Humanity.
@@colinmerritt7645 So yeah, it IS not pointless just beause you write IS in Caps and if anything, you just deebunked yourself with your second sentence specifically.
@@loturzelrestaurant You have to consider it in the context it is meant in. It is not intended as a broad statement, it is not a point against euthanasia. Thats a whole other sentence, cmon. If there is the potential for meaningful change in the future then suicide is pointless. in the case of Euthanasia, there is no hope or opportunity for meaningful change, only abject misery and prolonged suffering followed by an undignified death.
I don’t care what anyone says, if you are sentient you are capable of feeling emotions on some level. And I think Isaac is proof of that. he’s just learning how to deal with it. He doesn’t understand emotions because they’re new to him. And I think the fact that he nearly committed suicide is proof of the fact that he’s not just some sentient AI robot that he really is an individual capable of all the same things the other living beings in this show are.
This is a deeply heretical and interesting conversation. I have seen only a few other people try to argue that sometimes decisions we assume are inherently bad such as suicide, to continue an addiction, or to commit violence can be perfectly logical and sensible within the framework of a person's experience. When you discount the experience that supports the logic of the decision, you have no hope of understanding why the person made that decision.
There is a famous book. It’s title is “Suicide isn’t the answer. Until it is.” None of us are born on purpose. Everybody dies. Who the hell decided that choosing to die on your own terms was a bad idea? When did it become a legal matter? How did that even happen? I was not consulted when I was born. How is it bad, if I choose to opt out? People take their own lives, more men than women, statistically. That right there says a lot. Suicide isn’t a subject that should be taboo or swept under the rug. It’s more important to learn to understand the feelings that lead to the decision, than to make people feel less for thinking about doing it… like they need more to stress about. Food for thought. And yes, I have survived an attempt. The only real reason I am still here is because people who cared about me got me to the hospital in time. Some days… I still wish they had not.
I think the decision to carry on living should entirely be in the hands of each individual, though that desire has certain predicates: First of all, that counselling be readily available to those who seek it as part of any nation's health service. Taking your own life is a single decision that negates all other potential ones, it shouldn't be something to be taken lightly or seen as an easy fix to solvable problems. I also am a survivor of suicide, and I can tell you the driving force I have behind my current desire to live is the knowledge that it is a choice I have made. At any moment I can choose otherwise, and every day I choose to live. Those who have never honestly considered suicide simply can't understand the power that knowledge can give a person: that I live at my own behest, not anyone else's. Every breath I breathe, every sunset I witness is a choice I've made to keep walking forwards. To keep finding new experiences, meeting new people and battling new demons. Take pride in your life, and accept your death. Since my own moment at the bridge, that's always been what keeps me going.
@@bradameerbeg2154 More men succeed at suicide attempts because they tend to use guns, hanging, or other forms of rapid physical destruction. Women attempt suicide at approximately the same rate as men, though, and survive more often because they tend to use poisons and drugs, which can be counteracted if you're found down or might fail entirely for a variety of reasons. Basically, the reasons for the disparity in successful suicides appear to be cultural rather than psychological. We're all equally likely to be miserable.
@@bradameerbeg2154 This is actually a conversation that's had in the episode. Lamar sleeps with an alien woman who pillow talks with him about her culture's view on suicide, which is considered a personal decision that people are supposed to respect. Lamar has a very human, kneejerk reaction to it, but I don't think that the show necessarily indicts or disagrees with her view. Self-killing _is_ a personal decision, and you shouldn't be denied the right to it; that being said, for the most part, we would all rather you stick with us.
What she says works for a lot of situations, but not all. Eventually, time is the enemy, and is the cause of all the hurt that drives a person to that end.
@@captaintalon4485 How many professionals do you recommend? 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, more? What if they don't help? What if you can't afford necessary treatments? How many decades of suffering should one endure? Sometimes, time only makes the problem worse. I think individuals should have the right to determine how much suffering is enough. If we can't control our own bodies, how can we say we are truly free?
By your reasoning then, it must be that "There are problems so immense, that it they never get better with time; that in fact they get worse." A younger me would have felt sorry for you.
Isaac and Dr Finn hit both sides of the experience nail on the head with such resonance that I feel overtones. The honesty, the patient logic, the Hope are 🌻🌏🌍🌎🦋
As someone who has struggled with doubts of my autism. Isaac, Legion, and Data have given me great insight into how I think and operate and how my presence or lack there of effects others. I have committed to pure pathos at times through logic to try and quell the emotions around my pain. Suicide to me has always been more of an open philosophy than something tragic. This person was of sound mind when they chose that end. It's not to dismiss the value of their life but to respect the control they had over their own fate. I don't think it kind or respectable to dismiss the courage of that decision. Sure we can be there for the ones we love but their path is their own. I will be saddened but if that is what they wish and go on without me there is nothing I can do but respect that choice if it can't be stopped or assisted in the direction of living. It's good to go on living but I won't shame someone for being tired or wanting a sense of finalization to their experience. I only hope they can see there is much more and that the logic even we attribute in our suicidal tendencies are not perfectly sound. Keep living, if you want, the choice is yours.
The living can't understand the pain of the dead,just like the dead cannot understand the pain of the living. No living being should have to be forced to live in the pain of life, just to maybe be pain free later. I feel the same way with people who have to have assistance to live their lives, and cannot find care, they need to know they can die if it gets to be too painful. Trapped in your head unable to move your own body or say anything must be an agonizing existence.
The writing on this comedy series is so much better, and more mature than the sanctimonious preaching and spiteful deconstruction we're seeing in all of the current star trek stuff that its not even funny
@@kyleday5026 Still a good show, granted it is less of a comedy now and still has decent jokes in it, but this show is so much more like Star Trek *NOW* than the actual Star Trek now; when the satire of Star Trek does it better, you might wanna rethink the process.
@@corsaircarl9582 Seth MacFarlane said he wanted the comedy of The Orville going in to season 3 to revolve more around the character personalities as opposed to punchlines; so when the comedy does kick in, it's a natural process done by the characters just being themselves. If we get a fourth season, I think we'll see more lighthearted episodes that do focus on more of this natural humor, since season 3 is meant to wrap up the important story arcs in the possibility it gets cancelled after this season is over.
I feel insulted by the Shows claim that Sui-ide is always pointless. Dying Help will never be a Human-Right if this naive Mindset isnt questioned. Even thoguh it absolutely stand to reason to not force People who are absolute sure and have been sure for an expanded amount of time that they dont wanna live anymore; let alone the evn-more-obvious Case of Disease existing;
@@loturzelrestaurant Wanting to let a terminal illness take its course and assiting someone in actively killing themselves are two different issues. Suicide is NEVER the right answer.
@@loturzelrestaurant The fact you cannot know the future completely invalidates your position. You cannot know your entire perspective might change. Or not. The point is you do not know. And cannot.
Best part is, Spock understands the question. He just doesn't _feel_ that the question is appropriate. His objections to the question are not logical, but cultural.
The question didn't make sense in context of the test. Spock was taking some sort of post-rebirth, academic exam, presumably to verify that his knowledge was intact. But whatever intelligence was controlling the machine went a bit further and wanted to evaluate his mental state. Isaac doesn't understand the question because to him, the question doesn't make sense in the context of _Isaac._ Everyone knows Isaac has nothing akin to an emotional framework - and yet, he's tried to kill himself, usually understood to be a decision based almost entirely on emotion. So even if the question doesn't make sense, it must be asked. How are you feeling? _How_ are _you_ feeling?
Nah, the time not addressing Isaac is meant to give us that thought "What about Isaac?" then when we finally get to him we find out time has past and he has been ostracized and is being treated horribly. It is meant to give us the feeling we where ignoring him too. Never ignore a sign.
A few months ago, I helped talk a person off the ledge. They had a rope around their neck and weapons in hand. They were intent on not letting anyone stop them. I'm not going to go into details, as anything about this was never told. I will say that I am grateful and happy that person is alive and that I was able to express that to them. I've sanitized this. A human is alive because I did a thing.
And go where? His "people" are on a wholesale campaign against organic life, the only Captain who'd accept him, is the one he is under now and his own people consider him a traitor, after he went against them to save the crew of the Orville. So, where should he go?
Youll notice that Isaac, the Kaylon android who can do statistical analysis near instantly, still says "im sure this has reduced their efficacy." When if he really was certain, he would say "there has been a %20 decrease in efficiency." Dude is literally a victim suffering from pathological self esteem issues and i hate that this is so accurate to real suicidal ideation.
What i think is sad an interesting about this scene is, that Isaacs conclusion is basicaly the same that most people come to, when they try to end it or think about it, they often come to the conclusion that they are a burden to others and then do it. He even wrote his own version of a suicide note for the orville´s crew.
A suicide ends more than just one life. It kills something inside every person who cared about the one who is gone. the second guessing, guilt and other emotional scars . never fully heals.
@@TheEtceteraEtcetera No, it's pretty much dead with all the main cast working on other projects. Especially Seth. It's gone, only to be enjoyed on Blu-ray and reruns.
Some problems he won’t like the solution to, sometimes the Justice is violent sometimes death bring more good rather than bad. Very bad things are done to people who commit suicide, but no one has held accountable for it.
The only place he could be was on the Ovrille because the Captain was protecting him. He betrayed his own species and they would track and kill him as soon as he left the ship. No one else in the Union would agree to have him. If not the Orville, he had no where to go.
Sometimes, all is lost. It doesn't even have to be a terminal desease. Sometimes there is no future, no outlook, no way out. Because ultimately, people don't care.
I get why Finn is saying what she's saying and where it's coming from, and she is right in this particular case, HOWEVER, to use "There is no problem so immense, that it can't be solved in time" in a generals sense is just plain wrong. Actually it's outright arrogant, because it assumes anyone can absolutely get the pain of everybody else and rise above it. Unless you're a telepath/empath AND a precognitive, that's not true. Also, if there is an afterlife, suicide is not the end, it's just the end of an earthly life, and if there is no afterlife, then you seize to exist and can't be sad about missed opportunities or anything at all. This is not me saying "suicide in general is cool", this is me saying "condemning suicide in general or downplaying the reasons for it is wrong".
Death solves nothing. If the person who feels remorse over their actions dies, that is unlikely to grant any real relief to the one they harmed. But as long as the person lives & wishes to redeem themselves, they may do enough good to outweigh the harm caused. Isaac cannot take back his choices, but he can help the crew deal with the consequences. He can help to thwart his people’s war efforts. He can redeem himself
@@averycheesypotato A) As I already said: "...she [Finn] is right in this particular case...", so why discuss this particular case with me? B) My point was directed against the generalization, Finn uses, and which you used as well: "Death solves nothing" - As a generalizing statement this is just plain wrong. Death has the potential to solve a lot of problems just like it can cause just as many - context is everything here!!!
@@durchhalter Death may relieve an individual of their burden, but it does not actually solve problems. Since we’re generalizing I will say I support the right to euthanasia if a person is very ill & chooses it, but other than that I can’t think of a situation where it would be an improvement
@@averycheesypotato Whether death solves a problem or not depends on the problem at hand, not on whatever morals are applied or on whatever sensibilities are involved. Also, solving one problem, through either death or by avoiding it, doesn‘t necessarily mean that there wont be followup problems, true, but those will be new problems and they may come in either way.
That isn't what was said. "Time solves all problems" implies that they will sort themselves over time. "no problem so immense, that it can't be solved IN Time" implies that all problems can be solved, given enough work over enough time. It is also maybe a little too optimistic, but at least it does not discount the huge amount of work required.
@@agsystems8220 The point is: If the problem ends, then there is no time to solve the problem. Time does solve problems, either someone will figure it out, someone that was hurt will step up and stop it from happening again, or we die. And either way, eventually time does solve all problems.
This scene bothered me. Before it, I thought you were going to get a episode that talks about suicide from a different angle. That one woman said, “nobody chooses to be born, so if somebody wants to leave that’s up to them” An interesting take. And it’s going to be a very controversial one. But at least it’s not beating us over the head with suicide bad. But then we got to this scene. “People who think about suicide aren’t thinking about the future, the only think about the past.“ Thank you Dr. Finn. Thank you expert. Let’s play a game. I’m thinking of a number. Get it right and I won’t hurt you. Get it wrong and I will hurt you. We'll stop playing you die. Dr. Finn has been hurt many times during this game. The only way to guarantee that she stops getting hurt is to simply stop playing. As anyone that has been affected by gambling can tell you, there’s no such thing as a winning streak. So even if she gets a few right answers that result in her not getting the hurt, there’s no way to guarantee that will continue. So what if someone just can’t take it anymore? What if they don’t want to gamble with their sanity and their well-being anymore? And what is the only way to stop getting hurt is this simply stop playing? I wanted better from this episode. I’ve seen a lot of things talk about suicide and the always come back to the same tired bullshit. “Don’t kill yourself, because you don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t know things are gonna get worse or stay bad. You’ve got your head up your ass you don’t know anything. Listen to everyone else who clearly know you better than you do. Stay alive. Not for yourself, but for everybody else, you owe them your existence and your continued suffering will probably disappear maybe, possibly, who knows.” It’s rather insulting to suggest that people thinking of ending their life don't think. They do think. It's all they do. Every cell in their body is screaming for life. All common sense tells them to back away from the edge. There is no death instinct, only a survival one, it's it's telling you to live withall it has. You need to shut up all those voices. Which isn't easy. And that's AFTER the battle with your own logics and reasonings. No one WANTS to die. Everyone wants a better life. But death is inevitable. And life doesn't care what you want. Everything you have in life is on borrowed time, and life takes back WITH intrest. You'll lose love as quickly as you find it. And it leaves pain in its wake. You'll lose joy as quickly as you find it. And it leaves dispare in its wake. Even if you put up with emptyness and sorrow, life will take you body bit by bit and leave you as husk in some bed with nothing but a nametag and a fleating memeoy if everything that's come and gone. Death is the only certanty we have. It takes nothing and promises nothing. Nothing is better than a life of uncertanty. There is no good reason to commit suicide. Not to everyone else. But that’s the best part. Doesn’t need to make sense to anyone else. Doesn’t need to be a good reason for anyone else. It only needs to be a good reason for one person. The one who’s suffering. And for everyone left behind I’ve got fantastic news for you too, just think about the future. I’m sure you’re suffering the end in time. And if you think I'm wrong, what if someone wanted to take their life to reunite with a loved one who died? What would you say to them? "Don't worry? Things will get better? You'll find someone else? Just move on, it's what they'd want?" So I wasn't wrong. Just apply the speel you'd give him to a person who lost someone to suicide, or someoen wanting to commit sucide. All this talk is basically emotionally blackmailing people into staying alive. by telling them that they’re selfish, and not thinking right. Imagine finding a way out of your suffering, and then being told that you’re selfish for taking it. That’s not salt in the wounds, that’s acid. And I feel it can make the sufferer feel resentmant towards the people in thier life. Maybe make them grow distant in hopes of softening the blow when the time comes. Also. Think about that advice in any other context. Don't leave your abusive husband. Things can change. you're thinking about the past pain and suffering. Maybe it'll get better if you stick it out? Relationships can change and evolve, but only if you stick at it. What toxic advice is that?
For anyone who hasn’t seen the whole episode, when Isaac commits suicide he makes a recording telling the crew on how to make the Orville as efficient as possible, trying to do as much as he possibly can after he’s dead.
In his own way he wrote a suicide note, it’s haunting.
Isaac died for his crew’s power efficiency . I hope those replicated meals coming out 3% faster were worth it. 😊
"I offer my best wishes to the Finn family."
Don't forget Isaac gave his best wishes to the Finn family, that's as close you can get to "I love you" from a machine.
It's hard not to see how Issac's "the crew will be more efficient without me." and someone committing suicides "they will be better off without me." reasoning are almost identical. Hopefully someone struggling with those demons sees the error of their thinking.
"it's a whole lot harder to hate up close" damn those words are fucking heavy
Reminds me of a clip from a small-scale standup show I saw recently.
I think the comedian asked what the audience thought of immigration, and got a bunch of angry yelling about going home or not wanting them, and then when the ruckus died down someone spoke up "my husband became an official citizen of the US this morning."
Suddenly they all cheered.
i don’t know most of humanity has taught me nothing but hatred
And true
@@wadewilson3309hate is born of fear and ignorance. There is so much more love in the world..
@@alansmithee419proves that hate is taught/used to focus us on destroying each other instead of those who propagate the division. There is no division..all human.
I believe people would be better off without me....very thought provoking that Isaac through logic, came to the same choice that too many people came to through emotion
Come on don't say that
It's a conclusion I've come to many a time too... though I'm thankful that whenever I've come to that point, it was thoughts of those around me and how they would feel that stopped me going through with it.
@@BYERE
I was the last one to speak with my brother. Thoughts and pain l carry means l could never, ever do it myself because of those left behind
@@monza1002000 I'm sorry for your loss, and for the burden you have to carry.
@@BYERE
Thank you for your compassion and caring
The "I...Promise" that hesitation to say the word "Promise" really show abit of humanity even tho he's a machine. He really has grown, in his own way
Or Isaac is lying, as many Redditors like to claim for every other discrepancy and inconsistency in scripts.
@@ShamrockParticle well I like to think that he is. Call it romanticize but I have a hunch he's becoming more human than Machine
@@ShamrockParticle Redditors are also, ironically, mostly made up of many neurodivergent people who hyperfocus on these things - similar to Isaac, minus the compassion. While we can only speculate, it makes better sense as a writer to intentionally inject hints of humanity into Isaac, because it's what makes audiences happy to see. Ergo, he has grown because that's what the writers wanted it to look like for character development.
@@thesidneychanand also isaac showed himself breaking out of his programming to save the kids in the season 2 finale so i don’t think its very far fetched to think he’s developing humanity/emotion
her line stopped me from ending it. i mean this genuinely.
Good to hear mate.
i hope you doing better today. i was at the same point in life. glad to hear you left this path.
It took courage to share your experience. I just wanted to say I hope you are still fighting and are still residing among us biologicals.
Bro, I got my first ever thought, about a year ago. It is very scary. Glad you're still with us.
Hope you are still doing alright. You deserve to be happy and alive!
One of my favourite aspects of Isaac's arc on The Orville is that they're pretty clearly implying that Isaac has something - however minuscule - resembling "emotions" that he is unable to fully comprehend or grapple with, but they don't slop it in melodrama or have some big reveal of him suddenly "realising" that he has feelings. It's subtext through and through.
100% The episode where he briefly get's emotions sort of confirms it. He already had everything he needed to experience emotions, the researcher just gave him the machinery to express it. The way being around Dr. Fin literally alters his programming so he no longer functions without her, how protective he is of her children, how much he wants to be accepted by the crew... The way his entire race could no longer deal with the weight of slavery. He is an emotional being, his emotions are just different than biological ones.
This clip really hurt me emotionally... because I really needed to hear that line. I felt a renewed sense of life... the biggest thing anyone could ever learn... is patience.
And others are hurt by it because its so baseless.
I feel insulted by the Shows claim that Sui-ide is always pointless.
Dying Help will never be a Human-Right if this naive Mindset
isnt questioned.
I'm glad you're still here with us today and thank you for sharing this perspective to try and help others.
@@loturzelrestaurant In a future where most ailments are able to be cured, solved, then this sentiment is more relevant in that context. However, if someone is suffering in pain they deserve the right to end their own life on their terms.
@@Digtzy I would hope that… in that future, there would be no reason to do so.
Nailed it.
As much as I loved her as Cassedy Yates on Star Trek: Deep Space 9, she truly found the role she was meant to play as Dr. Finn. If only she had this much development as Cassedy Yates.
She was definitely more of a side piece in Deep Space 9.
As a side fun fact, Penny Jerald Johnson also appeared very shortly as a primitive alien on TNG, during the episode Homeward. I recognized her pretty quickly, it was a nice little surprise.
Oh my fucking gawd thank you! I could not for the life of me remember where I knew her from!!!!!!!
As a neurodivergent person I really can't perceive or react to emotions that well so Robotic characters like Isaac help me, so this scene with Claire was both a teer and a reality jerker and I really trust her advice so in due time I hope problems will be better in due time.
"This too shall pass."
What I appreciate about this scene is that it would have been really easy in the hands of a less capable writer to make it so Isaac suddenly had an emotional response despite everything we’ve learned. Instead he doesn’t.
He remains the same emotionless machine that came to, in his mind, a very logical mechanical conclusion that followed his Kaylon programming. When a program or aspect of a machine is unable to adequately perform it’s function, or worse actually detrimentally affects the system as a whole, it must be deleted.
Here, thanks to Dr. Finn, we see him take a large step towards understand what being human means. It means that you must always consider the possibility of change. There is no way of knowing with certainty what the future may hold, no matter your degree of intelligence.
For all those that struggle with their place in the world today. Never forget that the future can always ALWAYS be better. Please don’t give up.
That's something that separates him from the other Kaylons. They decided to go to war with life because they couldn't see their future dealings with biological being any different than what they'd had in the past. They had no hope. When they despaired, they killed others. When Isaac despaired he killed himself.
This scene goes out to anyone who is feeling so depressed that they who ever consider suicide, hope this will change your mind and try to endure another day of life
What a tear-jerker. Season 3 made me bawl more times than the first 2 seasons combined. It packed an emotional wallop and pierced you right through the heart. Seth is such a genius! I admire him so much!
I've had almost this exact conversation with myself too many times to count. The part of me that wanted to die always felt like the most logical part, when in reality it was just the part of me that was ready to give up.
NEVER GIVE IN
"Some feel like they were plucked from the abyss and burdened with life."
They are mistaken. The fact one cannot know the future invalidates this position.
@@XEN-ZOMBIEif only it worked like that. At my very core, I've always hated being alive. I'm 42 and I would say that my life has been about 99.9999995% pain and sadness. It's hard to explain to people when the world that you wake up to every day is a toxic wasteland that demands so much mental energy just to block out the pain.
@@Johnston212 In the first 4 years of my life I was graped, tortured, buried alive and psychologically abused every day. My life has not improved much since.
So if anyone can understand it would be me.
And I still say this is perspective. 40 years here too.
A few small changes can make the world of difference to that perspective. My life felt like it wasn't worth living one day and happy the next.
We also focus on the negative because that has the most effect - ignoring every positive experience.
I refuse to believe you have never had a positive experience - otherwise you require serious Psychological help as this is a disorder and not a comment on the world at large.
An assumption I am making is that you are not starving to death currently - you clearly have access to the internet.
Which is leaps and bounds above what some have to live with. Look at children laughing and playing while simultaneously starving.
Perspective.
PS: I am currently on my second day with zero food.
@@XEN-ZOMBIE I have had positive moments, just few and far between. And I'm sorry if I came across as insensitive.
@@Johnston212 No, not at all. My only point here is perspective.
I am sure that if you sit and really think the good will start to even the scales.
Allow pain and suffering to temper you like steel. This too shall pass.
And the next time you feel it - it will sting less and less. But only if you continue to fight.
Or it will defeat you.
The Orville is genius.
The characters are easy to understand and connect with, and I would rather the series continue.
But, what I want even more is for The Orville to remain free-range genius, and not be milked to death like Star Trek, Star-Gate, Star Wars, and so many other creations are just for a corporation's steady income.
I don't want creators feeling tethered to a monster that they start to resent, just so their employers can feed the fanbase with another hit of "XYZYX".
I'd rather see passion projects from creators, and not "Stage 5 following the formula of XYZYX"
Old series need to pass away naturally so that there's room for new series and creations to grow and develop
100%
This episode was difficult for me to watch. I kept stopping it because it hit close to home. However, this was an amazing episode that dealt with the Aftermath of the Battle for Earth from a different perspective.
Hmm! Interesting. A lack of emotions can be construed as feelings. Isaac does regret the actions but has no direct context of examination of this! Hence his attempt to take his own life.
hearing dr claire's speech about people who take their own lives not being able to see change in the future made me cry. ive been feeling despondent about my own life for a while and that gave me hope.
Such a powerful scene.
I feel insulted by the Shows claim that Sui-ide is always pointless.
Dying Help will never be a Human-Right if this naive Mindset
isnt questioned.
Even thoguh it absolutely stand to reason to not force People who are absolute
sure and have been sure for an expanded amount of time that they dont wanna live anymore;
let alone the evn-more-obvious Case of Disease existing;
@@loturzelrestaurant Suicide IS pointless. This from someone who has been there.
@@colinmerritt7645 You seem unable to diffeenciate between 'Me, the Ego, Myself' and 'People Many'.
You just talked AS IF your personal Experience speaks for all of Humanity.
@@colinmerritt7645 So yeah, it IS not pointless just beause you write IS in Caps and if anything, you just deebunked yourself with your second sentence specifically.
@@loturzelrestaurant You have to consider it in the context it is meant in. It is not intended as a broad statement, it is not a point against euthanasia. Thats a whole other sentence, cmon.
If there is the potential for meaningful change in the future then suicide is pointless. in the case of Euthanasia, there is no hope or opportunity for meaningful change, only abject misery and prolonged suffering followed by an undignified death.
I don’t care what anyone says, if you are sentient you are capable of feeling emotions on some level. And I think Isaac is proof of that. he’s just learning how to deal with it. He doesn’t understand emotions because they’re new to him. And I think the fact that he nearly committed suicide is proof of the fact that he’s not just some sentient AI robot that he really is an individual capable of all the same things the other living beings in this show are.
This is a deeply heretical and interesting conversation. I have seen only a few other people try to argue that sometimes decisions we assume are inherently bad such as suicide, to continue an addiction, or to commit violence can be perfectly logical and sensible within the framework of a person's experience. When you discount the experience that supports the logic of the decision, you have no hope of understanding why the person made that decision.
There is a famous book. It’s title is “Suicide isn’t the answer. Until it is.”
None of us are born on purpose. Everybody dies.
Who the hell decided that choosing to die on your own terms was a bad idea?
When did it become a legal matter? How did that even happen?
I was not consulted when I was born. How is it bad, if I choose to opt out?
People take their own lives, more men than women, statistically. That right there says a lot.
Suicide isn’t a subject that should be taboo or swept under the rug.
It’s more important to learn to understand the feelings that lead to the decision, than to make people feel less for thinking about doing it… like they need more to stress about.
Food for thought.
And yes, I have survived an attempt. The only real reason I am still here is because people who cared about me got me to the hospital in time.
Some days… I still wish they had not.
I think the decision to carry on living should entirely be in the hands of each individual, though that desire has certain predicates:
First of all, that counselling be readily available to those who seek it as part of any nation's health service. Taking your own life is a single decision that negates all other potential ones, it shouldn't be something to be taken lightly or seen as an easy fix to solvable problems.
I also am a survivor of suicide, and I can tell you the driving force I have behind my current desire to live is the knowledge that it is a choice I have made. At any moment I can choose otherwise, and every day I choose to live.
Those who have never honestly considered suicide simply can't understand the power that knowledge can give a person: that I live at my own behest, not anyone else's.
Every breath I breathe, every sunset I witness is a choice I've made to keep walking forwards. To keep finding new experiences, meeting new people and battling new demons.
Take pride in your life, and accept your death. Since my own moment at the bridge, that's always been what keeps me going.
@@bradameerbeg2154 More men succeed at suicide attempts because they tend to use guns, hanging, or other forms of rapid physical destruction. Women attempt suicide at approximately the same rate as men, though, and survive more often because they tend to use poisons and drugs, which can be counteracted if you're found down or might fail entirely for a variety of reasons. Basically, the reasons for the disparity in successful suicides appear to be cultural rather than psychological. We're all equally likely to be miserable.
@@bradameerbeg2154 This is actually a conversation that's had in the episode. Lamar sleeps with an alien woman who pillow talks with him about her culture's view on suicide, which is considered a personal decision that people are supposed to respect. Lamar has a very human, kneejerk reaction to it, but I don't think that the show necessarily indicts or disagrees with her view. Self-killing _is_ a personal decision, and you shouldn't be denied the right to it; that being said, for the most part, we would all rather you stick with us.
Jeezus...I'm only seeing clips and this stuff between Isaac and the Doctor are making me tear up.
I highly recommend you to watch the series. it is fantastic, funny and very much star trek without beeing star trek.
What she says works for a lot of situations, but not all. Eventually, time is the enemy, and is the cause of all the hurt that drives a person to that end.
That's why the good doctor added to come to her first when those thoughts appear. Really need a professional to help you through that
@@captaintalon4485 How many professionals do you recommend? 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, more? What if they don't help? What if you can't afford necessary treatments? How many decades of suffering should one endure? Sometimes, time only makes the problem worse.
I think individuals should have the right to determine how much suffering is enough. If we can't control our own bodies, how can we say we are truly free?
@@LadyhawksLairDotCom good justification for murder bud.
The point is you cannot know the future. As such time is never the enemy. Time offers infinite possibility.
By your reasoning then, it must be that "There are problems so immense, that it they never get better with time; that in fact they get worse." A younger me would have felt sorry for you.
If Isaac didn't see hope for a future with organic life and the Kaylon before, he does now.
Isaac and Dr Finn hit both sides of the experience nail on the head with such resonance that I feel overtones.
The honesty, the patient logic, the Hope are 🌻🌏🌍🌎🦋
This scene is one of the most beautiful things I ever witnessed...
As someone who has struggled with doubts of my autism. Isaac, Legion, and Data have given me great insight into how I think and operate and how my presence or lack there of effects others.
I have committed to pure pathos at times through logic to try and quell the emotions around my pain. Suicide to me has always been more of an open philosophy than something tragic.
This person was of sound mind when they chose that end. It's not to dismiss the value of their life but to respect the control they had over their own fate. I don't think it kind or respectable to dismiss the courage of that decision.
Sure we can be there for the ones we love but their path is their own. I will be saddened but if that is what they wish and go on without me there is nothing I can do but respect that choice if it can't be stopped or assisted in the direction of living.
It's good to go on living but I won't shame someone for being tired or wanting a sense of finalization to their experience. I only hope they can see there is much more and that the logic even we attribute in our suicidal tendencies are not perfectly sound.
Keep living, if you want, the choice is yours.
I needed to hear this at the time it aired. I was going through a low point and she logically tore through the emotional conclusions I was reaching.
God this episode in retrospect is so fucking good especially going in knowing nothing
I don't know what to say both to this scene and to the tear running down my cheek.
Well, neither of them can respond. But we all def feel the same.
The living can't understand the pain of the dead,just like the dead cannot understand the pain of the living. No living being should have to be forced to live in the pain of life, just to maybe be pain free later. I feel the same way with people who have to have assistance to live their lives, and cannot find care, they need to know they can die if it gets to be too painful. Trapped in your head unable to move your own body or say anything must be an agonizing existence.
I love her. So much.
The writing on this comedy series is so much better, and more mature than the sanctimonious preaching and spiteful deconstruction we're seeing in all of the current star trek stuff that its not even funny
its been like this since season 1 the writing good
@@kyleday5026 Still a good show, granted it is less of a comedy now and still has decent jokes in it, but this show is so much more like Star Trek *NOW* than the actual Star Trek now; when the satire of Star Trek does it better, you might wanna rethink the process.
@@corsaircarl9582 Seth MacFarlane said he wanted the comedy of The Orville going in to season 3 to revolve more around the character personalities as opposed to punchlines; so when the comedy does kick in, it's a natural process done by the characters just being themselves. If we get a fourth season, I think we'll see more lighthearted episodes that do focus on more of this natural humor, since season 3 is meant to wrap up the important story arcs in the possibility it gets cancelled after this season is over.
@@malcolmmorin Still an amazing show and Seth makes Ed Mercer such a great captain; even Angry Ed Mercer is TERRIFYING.
I agree. It does Star Trek better than the current and official Star Trek.
I needed this.
It is a lot harder to hate from up close.
Great show. Amazing narratives and critiques on every element of our not so perfect society.
"Patience obtains all things."
-Saint Teresa of Avila
Time maybe infinite but life is not.
I feel insulted by the Shows claim that Sui-ide is always pointless.
Dying Help will never be a Human-Right if this naive Mindset
isnt questioned.
Even thoguh it absolutely stand to reason to not force People who are absolute
sure and have been sure for an expanded amount of time that they dont wanna live anymore;
let alone the evn-more-obvious Case of Disease existing;
@@loturzelrestaurant Wanting to let a terminal illness take its course and assiting someone in actively killing themselves are two different issues. Suicide is NEVER the right answer.
@@loturzelrestaurant The fact you cannot know the future completely invalidates your position.
You cannot know your entire perspective might change. Or not.
The point is you do not know. And cannot.
This show makes me so emotional. And I need more
I come back to this clip when I have thoughts
On ya mate.
Honestly feel I needed to hear this
This scene is so masterful.
Anyone else see similarity here? Computer: "how do you feel?" Spock: " I do not understand the question."
Also Data. The fact that Isaac and Data's voice are identical to each other contributed to the confusion 😊😉
Best part is, Spock understands the question. He just doesn't _feel_ that the question is appropriate. His objections to the question are not logical, but cultural.
The question didn't make sense in context of the test. Spock was taking some sort of post-rebirth, academic exam, presumably to verify that his knowledge was intact. But whatever intelligence was controlling the machine went a bit further and wanted to evaluate his mental state.
Isaac doesn't understand the question because to him, the question doesn't make sense in the context of _Isaac._ Everyone knows Isaac has nothing akin to an emotional framework - and yet, he's tried to kill himself, usually understood to be a decision based almost entirely on emotion. So even if the question doesn't make sense, it must be asked. How are you feeling? _How_ are _you_ feeling?
1) that side shot of Isaac's head
2) That this didn't happen last season was indeed bizarre chronologically
Nah, the time not addressing Isaac is meant to give us that thought "What about Isaac?" then when we finally get to him we find out time has past and he has been ostracized and is being treated horribly. It is meant to give us the feeling we where ignoring him too.
Never ignore a sign.
A few months ago, I helped talk a person off the ledge. They had a rope around their neck and weapons in hand. They were intent on not letting anyone stop them. I'm not going to go into details, as anything about this was never told.
I will say that I am grateful and happy that person is alive and that I was able to express that to them. I've sanitized this. A human is alive because I did a thing.
You did go into detail.
This is a good thing, though no one should help in hopes of telling others under a youtube video.
@@XEN-ZOMBIE
The fact that someone tells you they did something does not mean they did it with the intention of telling you about it.
@@alansmithee419 No one said that. There was a hint of sarcasm for that *exact* reason.
Flew over your head.
This is great writing
This scene moved me. 😔
She should have asked him why he thought killing himself was a better solution to the problem he voiced than just leaving the ship.
And go where?
His "people" are on a wholesale campaign against organic life, the only Captain who'd accept him, is the one he is under now and his own people consider him a traitor, after he went against them to save the crew of the Orville.
So, where should he go?
Neither the Union nor the Kaylon would accept him. He had nowhere to live but Orville.
Isaac: "Time" is just one name for several of Hydra's forks.
Youll notice that Isaac, the Kaylon android who can do statistical analysis near instantly, still says "im sure this has reduced their efficacy." When if he really was certain, he would say "there has been a %20 decrease in efficiency." Dude is literally a victim suffering from pathological self esteem issues and i hate that this is so accurate to real suicidal ideation.
What i think is sad an interesting about this scene is, that Isaacs conclusion is basicaly the same that most people come to, when they try to end it or think about it, they often come to the conclusion that they are a burden to others and then do it. He even wrote his own version of a suicide note for the orville´s crew.
"how soon can expect this change....?"
A suicide ends more than just one life. It kills something inside every person who cared about the one who is gone.
the second guessing, guilt and other emotional scars . never fully heals.
It's a shame we'll never see this show again. All the good ones are always destroyed.
They haven't decided on another season yet, but it's not a definitive no.
@@TheEtceteraEtcetera No, it's pretty much dead with all the main cast working on other projects. Especially Seth. It's gone, only to be enjoyed on Blu-ray and reruns.
it's on DVD and streaming only. Not bad for a "killed" show.
Season 4 is coming. He told Logic.
for those wondering this is not long after the kaylon invasion of earth and most of the crew hate isaac and he tried to commit suicide
Some problems he won’t like the solution to, sometimes the Justice is violent sometimes death bring more good rather than bad. Very bad things are done to people who commit suicide, but no one has held accountable for it.
I can't believe Seth MacFarlane of all people made me think more positively about the future
To be honest this is why I like female doctors they're very compassionate
if only human therapy would be so easy and effective.
A friend of mine commited suicide three weeks before I saw this episode. I was not prepared for this scene 😢
Deanna Troi and Data :)
The actress portrayed Sisko's wife in DS9
Have to say she aged extremely well.
@@hagamapama quite true
wow
With time comes the ultimate end: entropy
If you are a pessimist. I call that a new beginning.
@@XEN-ZOMBIEThermodynamics beg to differ
@@Randomdudefromtheinternet No, they don't.
Heat death is not the end of matter. Try again.
Yeah, thats the general sentiment.
Claire Finn is the most brillant character in all of sci fi!!! I want to kill myself everyday!! That's why I keep replaying this clip!!
ouch feels
How is the man responsible for Family Guy also responsible for this incredibly insightful and well written show? Is he bipolar or something? 😂
This is heresy!
There are plenty of permanent problems.
I wonder how tall mark Jackson really is?
Jimney crickets
soooo, request a transfer? leave the union? run away? go sabotage the enemy? or try to talk to them? seems like drastic first choice
The only place he could be was on the Ovrille because the Captain was protecting him. He betrayed his own species and they would track and kill him as soon as he left the ship. No one else in the Union would agree to have him. If not the Orville, he had no where to go.
Penny
Sometimes, all is lost. It doesn't even have to be a terminal desease. Sometimes there is no future, no outlook, no way out. Because ultimately, people don't care.
Yep. This is a Star Trek parody. When did Star Trek talk about suicide?
Does Claire find out that it was the kid that told Isaac to off himself?
wait, i thought you were a medical doctor, not a psychiatrist
She is both. They are not mutually exclusive.
Is it a conflict of interest when the doctor and the patient are dating?
Not really
Not sure but that's a good question
At the time of this episode they were not dating. That comes later.
I wouldn't call it a conflict of interest.
Could certainly affect the doctor's judgment, but it's not like anything shady's going on.
why she getting emotional the toaster turned itself off
It was a bit more than deactivating himself, also she loves him
Thoughts like this is how we will be wiped out by a sentient Ai.
Data 😂
Intriguing.
I get why Finn is saying what she's saying and where it's coming from, and she is right in this particular case,
HOWEVER,
to use "There is no problem so immense, that it can't be solved in time" in a generals sense is just plain wrong. Actually it's outright arrogant, because it assumes anyone can absolutely get the pain of everybody else and rise above it. Unless you're a telepath/empath AND a precognitive, that's not true.
Also, if there is an afterlife, suicide is not the end, it's just the end of an earthly life, and if there is no afterlife, then you seize to exist and can't be sad about missed opportunities or anything at all.
This is not me saying "suicide in general is cool", this is me saying "condemning suicide in general or downplaying the reasons for it is wrong".
Death solves nothing. If the person who feels remorse over their actions dies, that is unlikely to grant any real relief to the one they harmed. But as long as the person lives & wishes to redeem themselves, they may do enough good to outweigh the harm caused.
Isaac cannot take back his choices, but he can help the crew deal with the consequences. He can help to thwart his people’s war efforts. He can redeem himself
@@averycheesypotato
A) As I already said: "...she [Finn] is right in this particular case...", so why discuss this particular case with me?
B) My point was directed against the generalization, Finn uses, and which you used as well: "Death solves nothing" - As a generalizing statement this is just plain wrong. Death has the potential to solve a lot of problems just like it can cause just as many - context is everything here!!!
@@durchhalter Death may relieve an individual of their burden, but it does not actually solve problems.
Since we’re generalizing I will say I support the right to euthanasia if a person is very ill & chooses it, but other than that I can’t think of a situation where it would be an improvement
@@averycheesypotato Whether death solves a problem or not depends on the problem at hand, not on whatever morals are applied or on whatever sensibilities are involved. Also, solving one problem, through either death or by avoiding it, doesn‘t necessarily mean that there wont be followup problems, true, but those will be new problems and they may come in either way.
Such people saying that time solves all problems never lived through anything traumatizing
Time is necessary to solve the problem. And with time also some new information and help comes up.
It nearly means you have more
Life to live
Well it can. Doesn't mean it always does.
That isn't what was said. "Time solves all problems" implies that they will sort themselves over time. "no problem so immense, that it can't be solved IN Time" implies that all problems can be solved, given enough work over enough time. It is also maybe a little too optimistic, but at least it does not discount the huge amount of work required.
@@agsystems8220 The point is: If the problem ends, then there is no time to solve the problem. Time does solve problems, either someone will figure it out, someone that was hurt will step up and stop it from happening again, or we die. And either way, eventually time does solve all problems.
This scene bothered me.
Before it, I thought you were going to get a episode that talks about suicide from a different angle.
That one woman said, “nobody chooses to be born, so if somebody wants to leave that’s up to them”
An interesting take. And it’s going to be a very controversial one.
But at least it’s not beating us over the head with suicide bad.
But then we got to this scene.
“People who think about suicide aren’t thinking about the future, the only think about the past.“
Thank you Dr. Finn. Thank you expert.
Let’s play a game.
I’m thinking of a number. Get it right and I won’t hurt you. Get it wrong and I will hurt you. We'll stop playing you die.
Dr. Finn has been hurt many times during this game.
The only way to guarantee that she stops getting hurt is to simply stop playing.
As anyone that has been affected by gambling can tell you, there’s no such thing as a winning streak. So even if she gets a few right answers that result in her not getting the hurt, there’s no way to guarantee that will continue.
So what if someone just can’t take it anymore?
What if they don’t want to gamble with their sanity and their well-being anymore? And what is the only way to stop getting hurt is this simply stop playing?
I wanted better from this episode.
I’ve seen a lot of things talk about suicide and the always come back to the same tired bullshit.
“Don’t kill yourself, because you don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t know things are gonna get worse or stay bad. You’ve got your head up your ass you don’t know anything. Listen to everyone else who clearly know you better than you do. Stay alive. Not for yourself, but for everybody else, you owe them your existence and your continued suffering will probably disappear maybe, possibly, who knows.”
It’s rather insulting to suggest that people thinking of ending their life don't think. They do think. It's all they do.
Every cell in their body is screaming for life. All common sense tells them to back away from the edge. There is no death instinct, only a survival one, it's it's telling you to live withall it has.
You need to shut up all those voices. Which isn't easy. And that's AFTER the battle with your own logics and reasonings.
No one WANTS to die. Everyone wants a better life. But death is inevitable. And life doesn't care what you want.
Everything you have in life is on borrowed time, and life takes back WITH intrest.
You'll lose love as quickly as you find it. And it leaves pain in its wake.
You'll lose joy as quickly as you find it. And it leaves dispare in its wake.
Even if you put up with emptyness and sorrow, life will take you body bit by bit and leave you as husk in some bed with nothing but a nametag and a fleating memeoy if everything that's come and gone.
Death is the only certanty we have. It takes nothing and promises nothing.
Nothing is better than a life of uncertanty.
There is no good reason to commit suicide. Not to everyone else.
But that’s the best part.
Doesn’t need to make sense to anyone else.
Doesn’t need to be a good reason for anyone else.
It only needs to be a good reason for one person. The one who’s suffering.
And for everyone left behind I’ve got fantastic news for you too, just think about the future. I’m sure you’re suffering the end in time.
And if you think I'm wrong, what if someone wanted to take their life to reunite with a loved one who died? What would you say to them? "Don't worry? Things will get better? You'll find someone else? Just move on, it's what they'd want?"
So I wasn't wrong. Just apply the speel you'd give him to a person who lost someone to suicide, or someoen wanting to commit sucide.
All this talk is basically emotionally blackmailing people into staying alive. by telling them that they’re selfish, and not thinking right.
Imagine finding a way out of your suffering, and then being told that you’re selfish for taking it.
That’s not salt in the wounds, that’s acid.
And I feel it can make the sufferer feel resentmant towards the people in thier life. Maybe make them grow distant in hopes of softening the blow when the time comes.
Also. Think about that advice in any other context.
Don't leave your abusive husband. Things can change. you're thinking about the past pain and suffering. Maybe it'll get better if you stick it out? Relationships can change and evolve, but only if you stick at it.
What toxic advice is that?
You're really misconstruing what was said however I understand the need to project pain. Much like Dr. Finn was doing to an extent, so are you.
Orville is Now a depressed adult No more fun Stopp watching