Did German Devs FAKE their Pokémon Snap Scores?
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- Опубліковано 3 кві 2024
- My friends... What secret knowledge did the German developers and guidebook writers know about Pokémon Snap back in the '90s? Could these Snorlax and Butterfree scores be legitimate?
Prepare to delve into the intriguing world of Pokémon Snap as we uncover the mysteries behind some questionable scores found in an old Player's Guide for the Nintendo 64 classic. In this captivating video, we embark on a journey of discovery, examining the legitimacy of these scores and unraveling the secrets hidden within the pages of the guide. Join us as we analyze the evidence, explore the potential implications, and shed light on the fascinating history of this beloved game. Get ready to challenge everything you thought you knew about Pokémon Snap and witness the uncovering of a long-forgotten chapter in its storied legacy.
LINKS
German PokeSnap Guidebook: archive.org/details/pokemon-s...
English PokeSnap Guidebook: archive.org/details/PokemonSn...
Miscellaneous N64 Player's Guides: archive.org/details/nintendo-...
Japanese Official Nintendo PokeSnap rankings page: www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/so...
Cyberscore Pokémon Snap Rankings: cyberscore.me.uk/games/15
Are these Pokémon Snap Scores Cheated?
Are these Pokémon Snap scores fake?
Did German Devs FAKE their Pokémon Snap Scores?
We found old German Pokémon Snap scores that make no sense.
These old German Pokémon Snap scores might be fake.
These old German Pokémon Snap scores make no sense.
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My guess going into the vid… The high scores were set on a beta build and then due to some minor change the records were altered but never updated
Pretty much.
my first guess is that the records were sloppily written with pen during play, so later when converting to computer it was a bit confusing what records went where, or were just hard to read! but ofcourse a change in the game build is very likely too!
I'm in agreement with the Butterfree score explanation.
Snorlax could well be a typo of interchanging the 2nd "4" and "0" is also reasonable.
and Goose talks about it around 14:00
Least we didn't get anything too crazy like an Ekans score...
The fact that the two inconsistent scores were on the same map make it seem likely that the beach course in particular could have been tweaked before the final build.
Note also that, on the English version, Slowpoke is just above Snorlax and _it_ has a 4400 score. So there are 2 possibilities at a typo - either switching the middle two (as mentioned), or reading off the wrong line
You really think Smetbo and Relaxo would just do that? Go on ancient texts and tell lies?
i think those are the pokemon names lmao
all relaxo know is mcdonald’s , charge they phone, twerk, be bisexual , eat hot chip & lie
@@r0bz0rly exactly, snorlax and butterfree fiddled with the yearbook
I always loved Snorlax's German name, Relaxo is so fitting.
I think the theory that it was a different build of the game would make a lot of sense. I think this theory could also be confirmed/disproved also. If someone that has great knowledge of pokemon snap looked at all the pictures in the strategy guide to see if there is any differences to confirm if it is the final build or not. All it would take is one different texture or small change to prove it is a different build the guide uses.
Could try matching up the photos in the guide to a TAS and see if the scores are the same.
There's also a possibility that the score discrepancies were due to a late, minor bug fix, in which case there might be no visible differences.
It could also be that the high scores and photos were taken from different builds. Which could mean that it may not be possible to know for certain either way.
The last few months I've been grinding out as many tied WRs as possible; I had no idea that my 4700 Gyarados put me in a top 25. It took hours, but I assumed since it was a proven maximum more people would've done it.
I'm even more proud of it now :P
I feel like the main thing these 3 scores have in common is dealing with occlusion. The Pikachu and Snorlax scores can be explained by an earlier build of the game calculating the score of an object blocked by another object differently (e.g. not having a size penalty for objects behind another). This would explain how they got the higher scoring flying pikachu shot without clipping through articuno and the higher score Snorlax from not having the grass blocking it. The butterfree score would be a bit harder to explain, but going on the previous theory could be possible by having overlapping butterfrees leading to higher scores. Just my initial thoughts after watching the video, i haven't played Snap64 in a hot minute so I could be completely off base.
there is also the very plausible idea that the cart they were beta testing on when writing the official guides had slightly more lenient scoring or had the Pokemon positions or routes slightly altered prior to the final build resulting in all scores being slightly higher than would otherwise be the case on the retail build, but most of them still being technically possible via grinding on the retail build with the exception of snorlax
Thats my guess as well, especially with butterfree and snorlax being on the first level level of the game. I know not all games are made in chronological order but I could very much see them either slightly changing their position or the landscape geometry and casually recording the scores during development and publishing a different version than the beta build used.
Probably the only UA-camr that can release home security footage of the grass growing in their front yard and commentate on it in such a way that makes the video irrevocably captivating. Never played Pokemon Snap, nor have any interest to play it. However, I walk away from these videos thinking that the trivial knowledge I've just gained is going to be part of the grandest answer to the greatest question in the afterlife.
Amazing comment, I feel the same way LOL
good man
You calling the 90's last century is technically correct but why you gotta do me like that
Why not say “last millennium,” though?
Some kid said I was born in "the late 1900s" and I about slapped him. Couldn't get up fast enough though, damn whippersnappers.
"The original Pokemon Snap, released within the last 400 years..."
It's getting petty far away now
I've also encountered "late 1900s", which is again technically correct but makes the 90s sound old af.
There is another theory. The guides are written based on late development builds. Not the final build. Small changes may have altered the possible scores.
Nintendo probably wants to synchronize the release of their strategy guide with the game, so other companies can’t beat them to market.
I don’t know about Nintendo specifically, but I know some software developers back then who were complaining that the manual had to be written weeks before the software was done because publishing took so long.
I don’t think what you’re saying is just a theory. I think it’s incredibly likely. I just don’t know if that’s the cause for these scores
I think the snorlax one is most likely a typo. I think one could look if they are more spelling mistakes. Furthermore i think that the dev build of the game had different features. Testers don't play the whole level to test one new feature. Maybe they could move "backwards" or slow down the time to make these records.
they 100% didn't proofread these guides that they were pumping out for every single game in the 90s
can somewhat confirm
I have a very very old, kinda torn apart, playthrough guide for Red/Blue/Yellow and MY GOD the guide has many many errors when it comes to trainer teams, Pokedex Data and many more things and I'm like... "how can you mess up a guide THAT BAD?!"
The Germans. Didn't proofread. Yeah okay buddy
@@JK-gm6kk A lot of professional workers here forget to doublecheck their work.
You can't assume shit based on a not even remotely true stereotype.
We are just as flawed as other people/countries.
Based on how optimized some of the scores are, I think it's entirely possible that some of the scores were set on versions prior to release that were nearly identical but sported some very minor differences that allowed for some scores to be possible. I think these scores should be trusted since they came straight from the developers and were presumably verified due to the lack of outlandish scores, but I also think it's important to recognize it's possible for the scores to be inaccurate but also not fabricated.
I wonder if snorlax is shown in any prerelease footage or screenshots? It would be interesting if something shows that snorlax was slightly further back or had less terrain in front of it
Several possible explanations:
- there were multiple people doing it, some just assumed and some didn't
- typos
- scores were based on older versions
- most scores were calculated, but for the ones where they knew a perfect size was impossible, they did those manually, and overlooked Snorlax
- scores were read from some debug tool showing a realtime score that didn't account for the viewfinder changing the possible size
This is pure speculation, but if I made this game, I'd have added a debug readout which, on every frame, tells what the scores/subjects/etc would be for a photo taken on that frame. Testers then might have used that to determine the highest possible score, not realizing it might require the player to be in an impossible position because the FOV/letterbox changes when you actually hold up the camera.
Just to add, on that page in the German guide, it's written that those are highscores achieved 'by the devs in Japan'. 02:00 Not sure what to make of it though. Edit: It also says towards the end that a player should play 'more than perfectly' to achieve them. Maybe they were being cheeky knowing that some scores were a bluff?
Technically it only says that for the second list. But then again the entire page is titled programmer high scores and I would assume Nintendo didn't even have German devs to set those scores.
My theory is that the beach level was a bit different in an early/beta version. Maybe there were more butterfree, maybe the grass was 'see through' for Snorlax. IDK but seems that way....both funny records came on the beach
I do believe in the snorlax typo and the butterfree 3 close on screen due to very unlikely random chance
my two cents is that perhaps the japanese devs used some sort of ddebug mode to place the butterfrees for testing and just assumed those scores to be possible.
Totatlly reasonable guess.
Yeah, I could imagine the Snorlax shot being from a non-final version with different terrain that doesn't obscure it, but it doesn't make sense that multiple players would have an equally easier time fitting in two near-thousand Butterfrees without some serious shenanigans behind the scenes.
I'd guess these scores were achieved by different members of the teams. So some are legit but other might just be theoretical max based on different methods of recording max score with different writers.
Really enjoyed to hear you say a word in my native language :D „Spieleberater“
Sounds drunk af 😂
1 Monat nur Pokemon Snap zocken als nächstes Video. Ich habe gehört er soll vor Kopfscherzen und Insomnia schützen und dabei einen fit halten und beim abnehmen helfen ;)
That's actually a fascinating story. My guess would be that, if the scores are legit, they were playing on a slightly different or modded version of the game.
Maybe they were able to stop in the middle of the track whenever they want, so they could more easily take pictures without having to replay the levels. I don't know how the Butterfree AI works, but if they stay in that general area after you get there, and you're not moving, there might be a better pattern to catch (or simply much higher odds of getting that one in a million photo).
Has anyone done testing to see if there are any differences between NTSC and PAL versions? PAL has a higher vertical resolution (576) than NTSC (480), it's possible that this or other differences affect size bonus scoring, spawn locations, etc.
Came here to ask this. I don't know about Snap, but a lot of those era games have physics and other stuff tied to framerate
You're making me want to grind the next Butterfree high score, stop
Waking up to new Goose seems like a good omen for the day.
Wow… Some might say…
It just…
Keeps…
Happening…
Thank you, GGF! Idk what we would do without your insight and knowledge.
I learned lots of new stuff today. Thank you so much. :) I remember my cousin had Snap as soon as it came out. I received it & a N64 around 2009. This video is really well made. Keep it up, dude.
Them not putting the max score flying Pikachu picture in the guide makes perfect sense. What you have to do to get the score produces a pretty awful photo outside of the game's scoring system because it doesn't even show Articuno.
There other high scores could have had the same problem, though this is less likely.
My guess: When developing a game, you add debug features that let you skip around in a level, so you don't have to play it at regular speed from the start over and over. I imagine the guide authors were given a build with these features, to make writing the guide faster as well (or, alternatively, the max scores were done directly by the developers). So, these guide scores were probably achieved with free control of the cart's movement, that isn't present in the retail copy.
it's possible they weren't playing on a beta version, but on a dev console or in-house emulator. dev consoles had different (higher) specs, and this game in particular runs strangely on emulator. every thing is theoretical but i didn't see any one else floating this possibility.
Clearly they used the secret 4th Pokéflute song, both to get the perfect Snorlax size, and a 4-Butterfree lure.
What if these scores were taken early in development? Snorlax’ feet aren’t visible here, so maybe they used to be visible in an earlier build, explaining the impossible to reach size.
Why is there no TAS for Pokemon Snap for the max scores?
Keep in mind that Nintendo's dev kits couldn't play back the unfinished build of the game in full fps. Is it possible their camera was delayed, simllar to what top snap players incorporate with lagging the game by shifting left and right, and that they were able to obtain higher scores as a result?
For Pikachu, its possible these scores were performed on a beta build of some kind, which could have changed a number of things that could affect the score. My immediate thought is if the performance in that area was initially worse, but some tweaks to the level were made so that it ran smoother. So the german dev did not have to do any weird technique, as the game was already running slow enough to allow for the shot
I’m guessing the team members didn’t all record scores with the same integrity as those who did Gyarados and Charizard. The Snorlax score person may have assumed 1,000 Size to be possible. It’s a reasonable assumption given Snorlax is a huge Pokémon. Either that, or it was a typographical error or a score ascribed to the wrong Pokémon.
Never played pokemon snap but I love catching your videos and hearing your thoughts on these topics
Teach me how to make solid content, this video is so well put together, much love
Great video. Super informative and well shown
Its been a while since i saw anything pokemon snap related. Makes me wanna try my hand again after all these years :)
My first thought with the Snorlax one was "is there a chance they got Snorlax while rising to dance?" Since, if memory serves, that may be the one and only time to get its full body in the shot and still be registered as dancing.
Found your channel recently, as a big fan of Snap, it's been such a joy! I do have a question, though: Is there a chat server (such as one that rhymes with ripcord, since UA-cam's spam filter doesn't like comments saying it!) or a forum or some other place Pokemon Snap players congregate, either for the original or New Snap? I'm more interested in sharing aeshetically pleasing photos then doing speed or score runs, but I'd join/take anything I could get! I am in one Japanese server mainly focused around New Snap, but I don't think that's what the players you discuss in your videos use 😅!
very cool, I vote goes towards the german typo and them playing an older version of the game, maybe where the models are slightly smaller or maybe the player position was zoomed out more
mew, pikachu, snorlax...
those are 3 frontrunners for selling merch, would get kids excited to try over and over
butterfree tho i do wanna believe, especially considering earlier builds
Damn i love these videos. So calming
That's what I try to go for!
I would definitely suspect these scores could have been made with a non-release build, as the writers/editors for official strategy guides especially would probably have had prerelease material (possibly more than even a press kit or the like). For flying pikachu especially, I think it's possible that maybe the flying route was different and then the developers adjusted it to avoid clipping with the camera like it takes to get the 8000. Plus, butterfree and snorlax are on the same course, so perhaps the camera route was different in that stage.
This is one of those weird childhood memories. And for context i played on the wii release,bBut i swear i mananged to get a special pic with 2 butterfree above snorlax in like a totem pole pose when using the flute, its one of my most vivid memories of the game, is a weird thought to think, might have to bust the wii out and see what thats all about. Worse comes to worse, get to go through the game again
really interesting and unique topic. Great video :D
You really did it and made a video about that! 🔥💯 Thank you so much, awesome! 😂👍
Ooo. I like those overhead views of the maps.
the amount of dopamine i get seeing a new Pokémon snap vid is YUUUUGE.
I live for these Pokemon Snap videos
Imagine what would've happened if we Germans were able to play Goldeneye back in the day haha!
Great vid as always goose
Lmao, Relaxo…that’s the best thing I’ve ever heard. Snorlax shall henceforth be known as Relaxo to me. 🤣
maybe they had devtools for continuous screen evaluation, or the ability to easily rewind/reposition/manipulate position on the tracks or something so they could easily find very high scores. it's hard to believe that dev employees actually spent the time to grind out the highest scores, especially since the Pokemon Snap development was reportedly so brutal, and I can't imagine guide book writers caring enough.
My best score for Mew was 9,990, but I never managed to get that score with Mew ever again no matter how hard I tried.
I've often wondered if back in the day some of the early press releases/trailers of games, how ever they went down, included premade "perfect" starting points/save states that would leap you into the action regardless of previous progress or not. Something like early release just being a guided demo. These "2nd" hand reporting company came in played a series of levels, and called it a day, or even the release to press was locked down similarly.
I'm a game dev and here's my theory on how the scores were done. Instead of doing the photos themselves or just putting in the max number, it would make more sense to Instead look at the maps files and calculate based on ideal conditions. This explains pikachu as when checking the raw map data you wouldn't bother to see that normally a bird is covering pikachu. Of course for the scores lower than the WR it's very reasonable to assume they either didn't bother to fully optimize or because the target audience is kids maybe they nocked the points down a bit.
My money's on it being a typo, but it's also a possibility that the scores were set on an earlier non-release version where Relaxo isn't clipping into the ground or something
I wonder if the 4400 Snorlax score was ever possible in the 64DD beta build? The only footage of it online seems to be from a single recording, and since multiple sources reused it and given how this was not close to a release build I really doubt the score would be a leftover from that. I just think it would be funny if that it was possible in that version.
It feels like the 4400 is a typo. The butterfree one, the devs must know something we don't somehow. It has to be real.
The strategy guide was probably made before the game came out so they could be released at the same time. The information they used to create the guide might have been from an earlier build that got changed before release.
Has anyone done a compilation/demonstration of all the current best photographs?
one of the high scores might be from one of Marc Rützou's German relatives
If either score is due to a typo or a different build, the next question is how many other scores were "incorrect" but just happened to be within the possible range so we're not questioning them now. 🤔
I'd agree with the idea that the large majority of the inconsistencies are simply a playtest error in that they played an early build and didn't re-take them later one. Even a release candidate could have wildly diffrent micro behavior than the final game back in the day, just look at the leaked Ocarina of Time version 0.9(unofficially named). Besides, this made me curious what the diffrences in scorerunning between the versions are, if there are any. At least an NTSC to PAL-diffrence is likely because we all know they barely ever adjusted the sound, let alone the entire game, to go full speed with PAL.
Though it is funny that it is not actually clear if the Relaxo score is a typo or from an early build or sth, so it will remain a mystery even if we uncover a build where the perfect 4400 is possible.
4:17 I forgot Jynx used to be black.
Snorelax is obscured by the terrain, he is sitting in a polygon "chair"....any shot not dead center will obscure the lower body. So you need all of those variables to line up PLUS a dead center shot as you roll by. Not too soon or late. Every single shot shown in this video was taken before or after dead center., meaning you either haven't passed it yet or passed it already. Take the picture AS YOU PASS so the most of the character is on screen and not blocked by terrain polygons. Try that out.
Nice :D Butterfree 4960 seems possible, because the third Pokémon has 210 or +220 pts. Over a decade ago I was told stories about a Snorlax 4100 and I waited years to see a 4060. Is possible to get 1000 size points with Snorlax, but the pose is worth 800 or 1000, if I remember well.
How did I never get this on my homepage?UA-cam is weird.
nice video Mr goose
The easy way to check is to just throw speedrunners at the german version and see if those scores are possible. Who knows if there is some code difference that causes higher scores in those particular cases.
Maybe in some beta version Snorlax’s body is full revealed in the scenario
Maybe there's some way to get the 3rd Butterfree clise as well like tossing a pester ball at it or something
Ma, wake up! Goose uploaded a new video.
Ma! The meatloaf!!!
They could have gotten the scores on a previous version of the game where it was possible to get these scores but it is not longer possible in the final released version
dude this took me back
There's no way any dev back then would spend more than the absolute minimum amount of time on scores for a magazine. They could easily have just been making guesses.
It is well known that old scores in random magazines were impossible to cheat
Funny, my mother bought Pokemon Blue during a trip to Germany. When she returned and I finally turned on the game...it was localized to German. I miss my Glumanda (Charmander).
"Some secret Knowledge that only a select few knew deep in some mysterious facility in Berlin last Century" Entire last century?" They were on vacation between 1939 to 1945, so nothing there at least.
I clicked on a whim but the video is interesting. All the info is exposed in a clear and interesting way.
unless they we're sharing posting each other's scores, that's 3 people that went absolutely bananas on getting that impossible butterfree!
11:49 oh you said it right there, the number of variables needed to achieve a 500 score butterfry pic are improbable BUT NOT impossible. Its possible but not achieved yet.
Internet is pretty big now a days. Is it possible to find someone who was on the team and find out?
Wow this game takes me back. Like most kids back then I got a few of the first Pokemon games but for whatever I just couldn't really get into the franchise. This game is the one exception and I really enjoyed it. If they brought a remastered version of this to Switch I'd gladly pay $60
if their game ran at PAL 50 framerate maybe that had an affect on the score
oh i actually still have that book. Was a nice read its not written like a strategy guide but more like a diary.
Isn't there code for maximum possible values? All they'd need to do is check those lookup tables
Any differences between PAL and NTSC that could explain this?
Don't reviewers usualy get a prerelease version so that they have thier guides by the time the game releases? We've seen incorrect things stated in official game guides for ever, that might also be the case here.
"the ancient texts"
Maps often have false roads or even towns to prove potential copy right infringements, maybe the Snorlax typo was intentional for such purposes?
German here, they definitely used debugging tools to create the guide, most likely the tools made it possible to get a slightly higher score.
Correction. All these scores are lower than anything recorded, as they clearly have a decimal point, not a comma. That means the scores are not in the 4,000s as suspected. They are instead incredibly abysmal scores.
does the german version have differences from the english game? kinda wished you went over that at least a bit since a lot of games have differences. even the same game like super mario bros has differenct times and tricks simply due to framerate. same game, samecode, different framerate.or even in DK64 theres this kinda known thing about the scope making one mission impossible.
Yeah some games have small changes in certain regions.
One I can think of is in the Japanese version of Goldeneye there exists an extra body armor in caverns (I believe) making it easier to complete a run on 00 agent.
Makes me wonder of some TASer writing a bot to brute forces the map using different movements
I love it when english people try to say german words. Spieleberater 😂
I’m sure people have taken a tas frame by frame, however, these are devs who are playing on very different versions than release. With that said, it’s possible that after play testing things were changed. A typo is likely for any single document, as for the others, those devs aren’t playing for 40 hours on slowmo to get scores. Most of them are probably guesses without seeing if they are possible to challenge players to keep playing.
My guess would be that the scores came from when the game was still in development.
Could the score just be a "trap street"? The authors of the book could use it as evidence if they see the same values in another players guide?
Did anyone ever try to get a max score butterfree with TAS? Maybe with rng manipulation and frame advance plus save states someone can get this 4960 butterfree
what if you just clip the butterfrees into eachother for more space?