When I see fancy buildings, I think about the workers who made the parts, sold them, and then were able to feed their families. As a business owner, I love seeing how purchasing goods and services blesses individual families.
Read "Window Maker" by Charles W Allen. I had the pleasure of meeting him on a trip to Nauvoo. There are SOOO many stories of people being blessed as they work on the temples.
Employing people, which I do, is only part of our obligation. Jacob 2thru3 tells us to obtain a hope in Christ then seek riches and help the poor. The poorest people are afflicted and not able to work. We are to make them Rich like us. I have not achieved this yet. But, studying the polygamy issue in Jacob 2-3 alerted me that we don’t hear much about our individual care for the poor. And we are supposed to liberate the captive. Interestingly, the only captive group named by the Lord in Jacob are the tender daughters captive by ‘many wives and concubines” which is what polygamy is called in section 132:1 Continuing to defend this whoredom is perhaps one of the things we are called to repent of…
"Why do we decorate our temples when people are poor and starving?" You know who else complained about money not being spent on the poor? Judas Iscariot. John 12:4. 🚩
I help to run a charity that builds schools in Kenya. The reason we don't just buy food and give it to them is because THAT DOES NOT WORK. That does not end poverty. What ends poverty is when people are educated and spiritually inspired to change their lives and pull themselves out of poverty. Your comment just shows your ignorance of how to eradicate poverty. It's definitely NOT about handing out food. I know that first hand. Jesus and his church help to take spiritual poverty and starvation out of people so they can take themselves out of poverty.
@@davidfrey5654 What makes you think I'm 'uneducated' about what really helps the poor? Because I 100% agree with your stance. My original post implied the exact opposite: people who complain about how the Church spends its money are on the wrong track.
@@davidfrey5654 yes, as somebody has worked on self-sufficiency projects for 20 years and currently live out of the country… What you say is absolutely correct… People have this idea at the church just give all their money away… That would solve absolutely nothing.. people that make comments like that are not in the trenches with HUMANITARIAN work… The only thing that works is to increase their spirituality and teach principles by holding their hand… Many times it takes generations… But handing money out does nothing
"That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives." - Joseph Smith, "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", pgs. 156-57
Yeah...remember that time when a bunch of apostles had apostatized...and so they got a new batch and held a meeting where Hyrum and Joseph gave them a heaping warning that they shouldn't lift themselves up thinking they're something great...to watch out for pride...and Joseph even told them this message you shared.
Faithful members have experienced enough internet critics parading as faithful members who were "just asking questions" and later turned into the church's most hardened critics to not have trust issues with someone like Michelle.
@@jacobmayberry1126 Because it is usually a long process. One true believing member doesn’t just wake up and decide to become a hard critic. It usually happens the more they dive into Church history, into what former Church leaders have taught that is messed up, realizing that the Church has not been very honest with its finances, and so on. So yes, asking questions after enticing g that things don’t add up, can eventually turn a person into a hard critic.
@@mgeuleinstsear exactly right. This lady is on here is wacked but she has some really good points. Polygamy is crazy. No God would command that stuff. I guarantee all these faithful members would not live this law if it was commanded by the prophet today. They would leave. Good point on the temples. I just cannot see Jesus if he were here today condoning spending billions on ornate temples to him rather than use that money for helping the poor and afflicted. Makes zero sense.
@@MRDMRD0099 You know the church does both. Builds the houses of the Lord (done in the bible) to do eternal works AND donates billions to help those in need.
Calling into question the motivation of those who use their global platform to criticize and exploit the Lord’s church for her popularity or some other reason that only she knows, I think is very crucial to warn others to steer clear of these things💥
For the record, Adam absolutely built a temple. It's in the Apocryphal accounts, and hinted at in D&C 106. Also, Shem had a temple, Abraham had a temple, Jacob built a friggin temple. This lady is so lost. She'll drag her entire posterity into oblivion.😢
Exactly, even using just the Bible Abraham and Isaac made ‘altars’ that they returned to and upheld over years. Doesn’t sound as temporary as she implied.
I was thinking of this one too. I just couldn't put it into words as nicely as you did. I thank you for expressing what my mind couldn't express quite right.
@@kalejuice5701 to be fair, the temple recommend is held as synonymous with Celestial standing in the church, so someone raised in the church, even someone as far fallen as Michelle, is going to instinctively jerk at the suggestion of losing it. Michelle is a ball of contradictions right now because she is balancing her family's long history in the church with some very heart wrenching tragedies and how those around her, especially leaders, responded to those tragedies. She's basically formed a conclusion at this point and is trying to do the research to prove her conclusions as to why what happened to her happened.
I feel like there is some guilt there still as well. And, it's nice when you're not the only one guilty. It's that false "comfort" you feel in a group when your whole group gets caught doing something wrong, like you were all playing baseball and a window gets broken. Sure, it does bring you all together in a way, but it's not a long-lasting "brotherhood". It's a sandy foundation, and it WILL crumble.
Yes, all us exmormons are miserable. If Exmormonism was so miserable, then why haven’t we comeback? Nobody wants to be miserable. I know if I was miserable I would to make the changes necessary to be happy again.
What first turned me away from Michelle stone is that she immediately weaponizes her empathy and emotions the second anybody questions her about anything. Then she exposed her views and validated everything I initially thought of her.
@@americathebeautiful9613 I have yet to see the Church break down into literal tears calling people mean - relying on sympathy hor her as a woman to manipulate them. Sorry. No, the Church does nothing like that.
@@jodeanmay8844 By that logic we would have to rule out studying the words of mortal men like Peter or Paul then, which is a conclusion I adamantly disagree with. The Bible is awesome. But the reality of it is that huge portions of it consist of sermons given by INSPIRED MORTAL MEN, like Peter, Paul, James, and John. Almost nothing in those books, letters, or epistles were the literal words that Christ spoke from his very own lips. One of the challenges of this life is determining who is an inspired man of God and who isn't. As Matthew reads, "ye shall know them by their fruits." Hugh Nibley was either inspired or he wasn't. But his words can't be thrown aside simply because he was a man. His words, just like any words you might say to me, must be pondered and prayed about on their own merit.
This is not the first time that some in the church have argued against the doctrines that came out of the time in Nauvoo. That was why some of the splinter groups left the church after the martyrdom.
@@Hpencer The Lord named his church in the D&C and specifically said it would be called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in the last days. The current LDS church is quite literally that same organization and has continued to receive light and knowledge and revelation from God. Joseph himself said on many occasions that there was so much more to be revealed. The vast majority of those Joseph called to lead the church continued with (and others eventually returned to) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All other "mormon" groups are literally in apostasy from that church.
@@koko00713 Technically it said "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", not "Latter-day", and by that logic, the Strangite church is the true one.
Yeah given how she has distorted her interactions with Brian Hales and has accused me of being a spy for the church and Brian based on mininal interaction with me, I have a really hard time trusting her recounting of events with her Bishop. He can't give his side of the story. Sorry not sorry, but she dug a hole for herself when she gave us multiple reasons to not trust her.
Ummm... you seen her video with Brian Hales? The first 10 minutes he's pure as*hole. She handled him very well considering he used her dead baby to call her an apostate. He's an evil man
@@RonDoty-i7z I believe Christ who fiercely condemns ‘many wives and concubines as whoredom. The question is not, why does Michelle believe Christ and Joseph Smith. The question is, why does President Nelson not believe Christ and all the Holy scriptures on the matter? Perhaps he has come around, but there is not yet consensus in the quorum. Pertaining to the Priesthood ban, prophets wanted to lift it from the early 60’s on, but took until 1978 before they got all but 2 on board. They met without those two when the famous revelation was received, then the 2 got on board READ SECOND CLASS SINTS. Pres kimballs son gave a historian his fathers papers because he felt this story should be told
I knew a missionary who got too political during a talk. The Bishop took him aside and told him it wasn't appropriate. That's just a Bishop doing his job....smh.
Did you watch the og video or just that clip? From the version I heard that was DEFINITELY abuse and would have shaken any normal reasonable person. As someone who has personally experienced ecclesiastical abuse I can say that we should not be victim blaming or victim shaming in this case but rather have compassion and love for someone that chose to still stay in the church after this kind of mistreatment and honestly shameful behavior
@@alittlebitofmary I agree that it sometimes happens, however in her case, which is her lying about other things (the fullness of the gospel) and then hearing her smug account of disciplinary attempts, I don't believe it was that off.
@@stephtimms1776 she already shouldn't have a temple recommend. that is just a fact. The recommend questions as if you support the prophet and the apostles. She has stated that she answers yes to that because she supports Joseph Smith, not the current prophet. That is a obvious lie and already shows she is willing to twist things to get the outcomes she wants.
Many of these Latter-Day Saint influencers who frequently speak ill of church doctrine, the priesthood, and modern-day prophets/apostles all share the same problem: arrogance. They think that because of their careers and their large followings, they can assert themselves as more reliable spiritual guides than the formally ordained who actually understand and believe in the Gospel of Christ. These influencers will criticize both the Brethren and Gospel teachings for not being enough like the world. They opt for immediate emotional reactions rather than properly analyzing who or what is right or wrong.
How many of them are attractive middle-class American women? In other words, pampered, accustomed to taking things for granted, and habituated to getting their way by batting their eyelashes.
@@Hpencer You like to comment on Thoughtful Faith videos, yet it seems like you don’t even like Jacob’s content or the church itself. You do realize the target audience for Thoughtful Faith is faithful Latter-Day Saints right? Do you really think your negative comments are going to change anyone’s mind?
@@samwyze64The more LDS members are exposed to alternative views, the more likely they are to change their minds. The Church itself changes its mind a lot too: Polygamy ( 1890) Curse on the blacks ( 1978) The Temple Ceremony (1990) Also, people getting their own planet (1998) The origins of the B.O.M. people (2007)
@@samwyze64 I don't care what the target audience is. Truth is important. "Faithful LDS" aren't faithful LDS. They believe and practice things that completely contradict many statements of past church leaders, Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Bible, parts of D&C and especially the original D&C section 101 that spoke against polygamy.
I wish you were able to actually address and deconstruct her arguments as opposed to just saying “this is what she is saying, she is speaking against the church” it’s like okay, I know that obviously from the first minute of her speaking. I wish you could address specifically how what she is doing wrong rather than just having president Nelson say the churches position.
He might do a debunking some day, but I think his purpose is more to simply show her disconnect with the Brethren. To caution us about how much credence we might think of giving her.
He has done several things where he addresses her argurments, perhaps most openly in a debate not that long ago. Just take a look through his videos and you'll find what you're looking for.
Yeah some of her arguments but not all of them. I haven't seen him do a video on the Whitney documents, Brigham Young altering the JSP or polygamy from England. If you have any videos from Jacob Hansen on these topics please send them my way! Or you can continue to point his few videos on the Josephs polygamy to say "look he covered it". When in my opinion the bulk of it he has not.
Ad Hominem attacks for the win! If we can scare everyone away from watching her content by convincing them she's gone astray, we don't need to bother confronting actual proof! Good work everyone.
I heard her speak one time a few years ago, and knew. Now I guess I’m a prophet because every prediction I had about her path after that first time I heard her has now come 100% true. Sure, she’s sweet, she’s sad for her rainbow kids, and there’s nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is her being allowed to remain a member. She’s not worried though, she knows exactly what she’s doing, and she will ride that gravy $$ train until the track finally derails or she’s asked to leave the station on another train very soon.
Reading the comments is so fun, but sad at the same time. We all just need some love for ourselves and others. I know I do! Grateful for my Savior who loves us all.
Her persona is so bubbly and friendly, smiling, laughing, and "gosh" this and "gosh" that. But she's a wolf in sheep's clothing teaching heretical lies and false doctrine. She doesn't seem to have a doctrinal understanding of basic restoration truths--like the role of the prophets and apostles as well the temple. In the NT we learn that Christ's church would be built on the foundation of prophets and apostles with Him as the chief cornerstone--not a foundation of local leaders. In Joseph Smith's lifetime, he never built a church, or chapel, he only built, or attempted to build, temples. His focus was on the eternal. Michelle and her cohorts are earthbound and kicking against the pricks as they malign the Lord's anointed. This week's CFM lesson is about how prophets operate and function in a wicked world. They're not popular they teach us hard things sometimes and have expectations that we try to live a Christ-like life. It takes humility and the Spirit to follow the prophets--but there's safety there. She's not just asking questions, she's an accuser of the brethren (who else does that?).
What you said here reminded me of a thought I had while listening to her. She puts great effort with her schmoozy smile and lilting voice, into trying to prove tge churchbis false and not to believe. What she doesn't address, at least insofar as I can see here, is what her alternative us. If tgis church isn't true, where is the true church? The church has to be founded upon apostles and prophets according to the teachings of Christ Himself. It has to be led by revelation likewise. Well, where does she say that church is? Perhaps she wants everyone to go join the Southern Baptists but I don't see her saying so. Perhaps she would say that God would raise up another Joseph Smith type to restore the true church, but from what she says here I don't notice her offering what she believes to be the true church. Maybe she simply believes there no church is true or all other churches are true excepting the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I don't know but it seems all she is doing is trying to get people di reject the church so her efforts are about tearing down and destroying faith rather than building up and pointing toward anything that could be argued as truth. That is one of Satan's top tactics. He can only destroy. He can not build. He reduces and doesn't add. He erodes rather than increase.
I wouldn't put too much stake in her personality. I personally know her extended family and they are all that way. Their sugary personality comes off as insincere to a lot of people, but the Brady family are wonderful and very passionate people. Her mother is Janeen Brady who wrote the child's hymn "I Lived in Heaven". I wholly believe that she believes every word she says on some level. She's had some very hard life experiences that ended up warping her views and leading down this path. Social Media and being egged on by Anti's caused her to spiral.
All I could think of when Michelle Stone was talking was 2 Nephi 26:29 "for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion."
@@americathebeautiful9613 they seek the welfare of Zion, she sets herself up as a light unto the people with that ridiculous looking smirk she has on her face at the start of every video.
@@jacobkunz9425 Maybe that they're filthy rich, spend less than 1% of tithing money on the poor, build extravagant temples, avoid talking about literal crimes they committed, receive adoration and love from millions of people, celebrate themselves and say "all is well in Zion", lie to the people, use lawyers to intimidate people and towns into capitulating to their demands... I dunno, maybe a standard of basic decency?
@@americathebeautiful9613 that is not the same thing at all. Not even remotely. They were called of God as was by Aaron. Priestcraft is when a person puts themselves forward or up as a light for gain or praise of the world. Not the same at all.
Children are trained from early ages to have shallow temporary relationships and thinking. John Taylor Gatto explains how they do this so the masses are easy to manipulate.
@@loudogg73 it just takes a tiny bit of critical thought to understand that the “history, facts and central principles of the gospel” have all been corrupted, long before you or I were here. So many things Brigham young taught are false. Even the modem church had rejected many of his teachings.
@@MagnusTheBiased-tw6zy There is, for example, no historical evidence to suggest Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. Persecution for practicing polygamy was actually a major part of why Joseph was killed. Autobiographies and court records of his polygamous wives exist. Is all of this made up? If so, prove it.
She is terrifying. She has that sweet Relief Society sister voice. She can do a lot of harm to those that are babies in the faith. I am also confused why she is concerned about losing her temple recommend since she says the temple is a false belief.
Because she wants others to believe she is in "good standing" with the church so she can lead others out. The whole reason she stays it so she can lead others out. She feels responsible to "expose the corruption within the church." People take her more serious when she can claim she is still IN the church.
Her motivation is crystal clear. You can hear it in her voice and see it in her demeanor. Thank goodness we have a true prophet to lead us instead of all this nonsense. She fills me with despair. The prophet and apostles fill me with tender sweetness and hope🌟
So true! Satan is the father of contention, anxiety and criticism! Our prophet and apostles are the kindest most compassionate men found on earth and we are so blessed to have them! They teach the true doctrine of Christ showing us why the members are so good! You cannot get good fruit from a corrupt tree! Jesus 101
It's called cognitive dissonance. I'm pretty sure you would have said the same thing to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lehi, and I might even add Jesus of Nazareth.
@@johnwoolf2383 no it’s called spiritual discernment. Cognitive dissonance is what this false prophetess is experiencing when she goes to church and tries to undermine its teachings. Being able to recognize the difference between what is coming from darkness and what is coming from light is a gift of the Spirit.
@@johnnyscoolstuff8427 why would I mean that? Brigham Young was a famous pioneer that forged the West and founded many communities. President Nelson is a renowned heart surgeon and amazing man. What have you done besides playing guitar that has given you authority to sling mud at upstanding God fearing men?
I don't agree with the LDS church anymore. However, I do think she is a modern day Nehor. 1. Do they teach what they claim to be true or what they want to be true? 2. Do they want to be popular and get a lot of attention for teaching their message? 3. Do they want to make a living, or financially gain, from teaching their message 4. Do they only speak about things that people generally find to be interesting or popular? Michelle clearly fits this pattern.
I listened to hours and hours of her podcasts. Her method is to take some facts, add a bunch of speculation and sign reading, and bake at 325 degrees for an hour.
I saw one of her latest episodes where she talked about going back to the Temple and having a new perspective and spiritual experience. I think we need to be kinder to each other and let ourselves and other grow and change. I know that is what our Savior wants for us. I didn't see that episode with that couple. I think she has changed a lot of her feelings since then. She wants to follow the Savior.
@@jacbox3889but she is continuing to preach her lies and continuing to push her falsehoods as truth while supporting and associating with people hate the church
I once heard it described as the wolfs in sheep's clothing are those who were once faithful but now have been hollowed by letting evil spirit affect them to the extent that now they are like them and now are the wolf in sheep's clothes. These may be a test for all true believers. I would agree she needs to be addressed by her priesthood leaders. But could it be they are afraid of the PR or maybe they have and because the church does not comment of these matters, she may not on her own because she gets more effect if she is a member.
We all have pride. Elder Bednar last conference said the brethren are not immune. How about we not mock. And simply engage in the conversation. Do you have something constructive to add? There are legitimate questions I have had about the temple over my lifetime. And some of those things have been removed. I love the temple. I love the Church, but question why an AI bot is now giving answers to doctrinal questions… It seems to be adding to the dogma, vs enhancing scripture study. These are questions. The internet is the public square. Should we not be able to engage in civil and even loving discourse?
This is a hit piece and Jacob knows it. You can take hours and hours of content and pull a few snippets out to create your narrative but you have misrepresented Michelle here. On her clip with her guest named Clark, he is a never Mormon not an ex or anti Mormon and Michelle does not promote or subscribe to the inside job theory. She’s just not afraid to have people on that disagree with her. You should watch her most recent content on temples and spiritual experiences she’s had there. Anyone who is honest and has studied the evolution of temple ordinances will admit that that there were originally corrupt and blasphemous doctrines taught during the endowment. You don’t have to be afraid of the idea that the LDS church can still be true while false traditions have crept in and may still exist today. You are aloud to disagree with church leaders, thank goodness many church members and leaders stood up to those like Benson, Petersen, McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith etc when it came to teachings on race. Would you make this same video about Hugh B Brown and Lowry Nelson as they stood up for our African American brothers and sisters? They spoke directly against the church leaders of the time. What I respect about Michelle is that she’s vulnerable and she’s willing to put herself out there to call out inconsistencies, regardless of threats or intimidation.
Adam God Doctrine, polygamy terms, teachings of Blood Atonement, and the oaths of vengeance were all added to the wording of the endowment after Joseph Smith’s death, in addition to those of African descent being banned from the temple after his death.
Does she think God has called her to fix the church? By accusing prophets of lying and telling her bishop to “shove it up his a$&? When she stops “evil speaking” and repents, she will start to get true revelation again.
No God did not call her to Fix the Church, She does not hold the keys to counsel the Lord. She is making the same mistake as Babbit Did mentioned in the D&C..
@@m4oni what’s hilarious is that you’re so confident in your ignorance. You know nothing about Brigham Young except for what you’ve been indoctrinated with. That’s a good boy. Stay in the center of the lifeboat!
If she thinks she had been called of God to expose lying prophets, then I claim that God told me she is apostate. Who is right? We both claim same authority, same revelation....none. Why would she want to discredit the place where we are taught to keep our Covenants (including refraining from evil speaking), or be under Satan's power.
Really easy line of authority. Clear direction with who the Lord communicates especially concerning other people. She doesn't hold keys over anyone in the church therefore she can not receive revelation on behalf of other people and correct them from divine authority.
You ask who’s right? Who the Spirit testifies to me is right, that’s who. I have the authority to know for myself. As we all do. It is each of our birthright to commune with our Father and have authority for ourselves in understanding truth. It doesn’t matter who it comes from. Truth is truth and the spirit will be there.
In that story she told about the bishop that said she could lose her temple recommend because of the heresies she was teaching at the pulpit, she forgot to tell that the bishop had a huge cigar and puffed smoke at her while he leaned back on his chair with his feet on top of the table. 😒
What's wrong with someone finding a way that works for them to stay in the church? If you don't agree, that's fine, move on. This is the only way she's able to stay active, let her be.
A lot of people have no setting between "go along with everything" and "fight against it, because if anything bad happens, its all systemically corrupt!" I have a hard time imagining that Zion can be built in either mode of thought.
@@diegolucero9910 I disagree. I think when people don't know how to deal with ambiguity, mistakes, they either shrug... or they need to FIND doctrines that rationalize: this uncomfortable thing isn't just mistake ITS SYSTEMIC! For example, Stone has a feminist bent that I can *in part* agree with. Looking at the historical record and our that we have a Heavenly Mother. that 1) knowledge of Heavenly Mother was excised from our religion by apostate priests before Christ 2) Our church really hasn't restored much beyond knowledge of our existence and so 3) Our church is male-centric in a way that not just reflects the gospel, but reflects an on-going apostacy relating to the divine role of Motherhood that was once understood better by Israel. I think she would probably nod her head with a lot of what I'm saying. Most people look at our lack of info on Heavenly Mother and just shrug and think "must no be important" and continue on with life as usual. A small group of people, Stone, this is WRONG and people keep doing wrong things, so this is a conspiracy! And get pushed further and further into the doctrines of men trying to justify their frustration. A more moderate path is to think. Joseph Smith did say understanding the nature of God is really important. We understand almost nothing about our Heavenly Mother. Maybe there's a lot of personal work to do for me learn more, and maybe God will help me be and instrument in helping others ponder on the significance of the doctrine of Heavenly Mother. But since I view myself in a position of supporting those in the church (instead of crusading against them), I can also balance that view with other ideas, my leaders can still be inspired, even if they're not choosing to pursue the revelation that seems pressing to me. If I am right, God can help me learn for myself, and maybe God can help be me a catalyst for change... And sometimes I can still be wrong. If you're not capable of nuance, at some point, you will either stop learning the gospel or you will bend it to fit your inflexibility... and at that point it becomes the doctrine of men. The underlying problem is that people are ill-equipped to build the kingdom of God with wisdom and patience. Their goal is not to teach doctrines of men, but their impatience and pride will drive them to it when they can't bear to work through trials with patience.
@@AlecSorensen Excellent point. I take this as one of our main challenges of mortality: to develop the humility to discern and walk that narrow way between those natural tendencies.
@@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp Yes, and the frightening idea that God does give us what we want, and lets us believe what we want. If what we want is to crusade against another group so we can feel self-righteous, he'll let us believe that--even of His own church. If what we are looking for is ways to build his kingdom with the people who are around his, He will help us find those opportunities.
Michelle isn't dumb. She understands optics. Put the old school LDS artwork behind her. Put the type of flowers you would see in sacrament meeting. For anyone that actually reads the scriptures for themselves 90% of what she says is easily refuted. I can't believe she is still a member. What is wrong with her Bishop and SP? There is easily more than enough evidence to EX her, which should be done immediately.
Yes, the church leadership in her area need to meet with her and encourage her to repent or to have her membership removed for apostasy if she chooses not to repent. We have these processes in place for a reason.
@@koko00713 repent of what? Asking questions? Reading history? The LDS corporation is part of the modern day secret combination spoken of in the BoM. It took me a long time to see it. RMN admits in his biography that he belongs to a satanic fraternity. The church is in bed with the globalists.
@@Kait272Jacob 2:30 gives God’s explanation for when He may command it. And we find it in Genesis, which is missing a lot of God’s communication. I.e. God cares about sacrifice even though we don’t see Him commanding it, though we do see it in the Pearl of Great Price.
Exactly, and vain babbling is exactly what we get from the LDS church today. Falsely claiming that Joseph was a ConMan, an adulterer, a polygamist, and a man who pursued teenage girls for sex. Vain babbling about how Joseph supposedly used a rock and a hat to translate, which would make the gold plates absolutely unnecessary. Vain babbling about Brigham Young, being a great leader, when he was truly a tyrant and a very ungodly man. And even vain babbling about how are Joseph and Hyrum where killed by a mob, when the truth is that they were killed by their own friends inside the jail. You are right, we should heed the counsel we are given in scripture, but we truly need to know who is babbling and who is not.
She speaks about all these horrible experiences and comes to these devastating conclusions about the church, it's leaders, it's history, it's very structure... yet, she has the biggest joker grin, smiles through her words, and laughs as if she's recounting the joyous details of her wedding day. The cognitive dissonance on display strongly indicates dishonesty. I don't trust a word that comes out of her mouth
given at the 2018 Women’s Session of General Conference, Nelson said: "With all my heart, I plead with you to let virtue garnish your thoughts unceasingly; then shall your confidence wax strong in the presence of God. If our women lose their virtue, it will be the cause of our undoing." There is nothing virtuous about polygamy
If she does she will mostly follow ani-mormons and say they where decided or hallucinating. The only way those interviews would help here come back if she humbles herself and turns again to Lord Jesus Christ
She's talked about how she's had spiritual experiences in the temples. I'm seeing a lot of false characterization in this comment section. If you're interested in interviews from people who've been through the temples, I'd recommend the Clairity podcast.
The underlying assertion of pretty much all of these break-off groups is that the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ failed. If that were truly the case, then we are simply living in a continued apostasy and still waiting for a successful restoration to occur. That doesn't sound right to me at all. Sure, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't a perfect organization. We live in a fallen world where any organization, including the Lord's church, is made up of men and women who aren't always true to God's will. That being said, the gospel the church teaches and the ordinances it administers ARE true. If this church is not the "marvelous work and wonder" prophesied to fill the whole earth before the Lord's second coming, then I don't know what else fits that description. Certainly not any of these wandering break-off groups... Hold fast to the iron rod and don't be deceived by the precepts of men (and women like this.) Time is getting short, so the adversary is working overtime with his mists of darkness and great and spacious buildings.
3:30 they literally left the established United States after the martyrdom of Joseph and went out west to practice their beliefs in peace...she's trying to imply that the reason they began to be more open with it is that joseph died, as if the mass migration of saints out of the east just never happened.
Oh boy. Just dug yourself a hole. They stayed in Nauvoo and started more openly practicing polygamy and having children with their wives after Joseph died. Fact. Then Brigham took some of the church to Utah to escape the law so he could marry teenagers in peace and be a king, which meant, by the way, leaving the areas where God told them to establish Zion!
Jacob, it's easy to look good when you highlight the side issues people bring up or debate people like Jabob Isbelle. I don't think questioning temple worship is the main message of michelle stone. I think she has honest questions that are widely ignored about the practice of plural marriage which merit closer examination. The only problem I have with church history is not learning more about it. I get really irritated when people tell me to stop asking questions or say I am unfaithful for asking questions. That's probably how she feels. This video is a bit of a strawman.
These "issues" have all been addressed for decades. There's no question or debate. They are only an issue for some malcontents in the Church who can't emotionally handle the issue. And they act like some ditzy lady on UA-cam has somehow cracked the code of plural marriage and the history thereof. It's ridiculous.
@@jaredshipp9207 You should consider looking at primary sources that have recently become available. They paint a different story than the one you are telling.
I'm one of them and so grateful for her. I'm most grateful for the spirit that has testified of truth. Polygamy is not if God...that's all we need to know.
@@kristinrichmond8185 Polygamy is doing it man's way and under man's direction and for the glory of man. Plural marriage is doing it under God's direction and seeking his will and glory in doing it the way Abraham and Israel did.
I have heard her say that Lots wife came to her and asked her to tell her true story. That she is here to redeem Emma’s name and that she carries the DNA of the women who suffered under polygamy and she needs to redeem them. I feel so bad for her.
I seem to remember a certain famous disciple asking Jesus if they shouldn't just sell expensive ointment and give the money to the poor instead of using it for holier purposes. Sounds very very similar if you ask me. Sooner or later humans will learn not to question God. Some painful learning might take place first.
No, you can very well be imperfect and still never lead the church astray. I find it relatively unlikely that the lord would call a prophet who he knows is going to obliterate and damn His church.
@@Bl3ndrz ya the scriptures are chock-full of prophets making mistakes and doing things wrong. It doesn't say that prophets wont make wrong decisions. This is proven by Joseph Smith's banking fiasco, among many other failings listed in D&C. What will be maintained is that the purpose of the church, to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man, will be maintained. It is up to us to go to God and follow the Spirit when learning from the prophets, but the final message should be at least somewhat consistent among the teachings of the church and scriptures. This case is Michelle basically saying that the vast majority of millions of members spiritual confirmations over the last 200 years are all wrong and her confirmation alone is true.
@@Bl3ndrz Particularly since there are 14 other men he would have to convince as well. SO many of these quiet apostate folks have created false dichotomies just like this - if the prophet can't lead the church astray that's saying he must be perfect is completely poor reasoning. There is such a range of variation. It's also a denial of prophecy in general. Another example is the wholy polygamy argument - JS couldn't have practiced polygamy or he'd be a fithy pedo (as was mentioned here elsewhere). It's operating from completely ignorant pretenses.
Michelle's faith journey would be a really good example of the wrestle many have with the Lord, trying to make sense of church history and its troubling facets. If you have watched her recent videos she actually bears testimony of the beautiful sacredness of the temple and her desire to attend and be there. This video is somewhat a misrepresentation of her understanding of the temple, best have an interview with her instead of slamming her in a one sided video. How many people experience what she is going through? Its comforting to them that they are not alone in their studies and can still remain in the Church while they struggle. I appreciate her courage to continue in the church as she wrestles with historical facts. While I don't always agree with everything she has said she brings a valuable debate to the table that needs to be seen. If anything it will solidify church history in anchored truth instead of continued hearsay, shelving and brushing under the rug.
There's a huge difference between not understanding something, wondering about it and asking questions, and deciding/declaring that prophets were criminal and sinful conspirators who have led the Church to apostacy. Not understanding or knowing is not a problem, but casting your lot on a side in opposition is. It's even more telling when it went beyond polygamy and LGBTQetc policy, and became platforming every aspostate who is online. She is not seeking answers, she is seeking validation and allies. With her actions and comments, she has set herself up as an authority and is seeking to change the Lord's church to fit her philosophies. I don't think she is evil at all, but is misled, and leading others with her. I am sad for her, and compassionate for her situation, but she is following a well known path that onlt leads to apostasy and eventual seperation from the Church. I have had a few family members go through a similar situation, but were lucky enough to get good council and correct themselves before it got that far. Neither had negative intentions - quite the opposite. But were so desperate for spiritual experience that they set themselves up. We know the path. It was taught in the BoM, and has been taught from the pulpit since the early days the the Church. But the tools to go down that road are so alluring today.
@@RichardChappell1 I respectfully disagree. There is an elephant in the room and she is willing to address this problem with a critical eye always willing to be corrected and criticized in her findings. There are far more people who leave the church because of polygamy than the idea that Joseph didn't do it. People need answers and Michelle simply wants to have a conversation about her findings. People who make hit pieces like this cower in the corner and refuse to actually have these conversations because it is easier to have a conversation by yourself than actually engaging with someone else in debate. Now if you feel you have answers I would suggest that you address them with her and have that conversation. Michelle is supper willing to talk to people, I myself have spoken with her and she is very easy to contact. There is a growing need to address this issue because either we address it or more people will fall away from the church believing that Joseph Smith was some narcissistic pedo. I think hit pieces like these are more damaging. Let's have this conversation, lets actually address these points of history instead of explaining them away.
@@LauraWalker-vj6qm You say so. I have yet to see her accept correction, criticism or even disagreement. She will break into tears and insist you are attacking her - even when it's just mere disagreement. As to you statistic, that's just made up. We both know that. It's nothing more than something you think is happening. You say that people need answers. What answeres do they need? One that meets their bias and modern-based cultural sensibilities? Does actual truth matter? Bucaus if we're going to be truthful, no one is going to get a real answer. We don't have clear information and lots of conflicting "research" and claims. The best you're going to get is to pick one - which will have no more validity than any other. Sorry. That's the reality. We don't learn more about history as time passes. We just get further from the sources and lose the context. So if you want a true answer, you are out of luck. The problem I have with Michelle is that she does not want to have a conversation. She is not presenting all the evidence and discussing it - she is making very specific claims and accusations of curruption and fraud. And her recent following whatever programming the Mormon Stories podcast has, with bringing in people to voice complaints without the alternate positions or challenge to claims is not conversation. She's actively trying to build apostacy. She's not looking for a conversation. She's looking for followers. No one is challenging her having questions. It's purely about the methodology and how she does it. You comment about this piece is just ignorant or dishonest. Jacob has had the conversations with Michelle. It's lot at all that he's hidden in the corner and refused to have a conversation with her. She specifically refuses to have a conversation with anyone where she can't control the discussion. She has said many times that she refuses to debate anyone. I have in fact had conversations with her. She's basically made the suggestion that any disagreement I have had with her is ignorant and I'm reading it wrong. If you are interested in making negative claims about any of the prophets or Church policies, she is glad to talk to you and support your position. You've already created a false dichotomy in your mind. You have made the claim that it's either one way, or was some narcissistic pedo. The fact that you've made that dichotomy shows where you're at in the discussion. Of course, then you've minimized the years of history writing as just "explaining it away." I notice the concept missing in your response - that is any mention of the Spirit or witness. THis is just another version of bashing where you get your scriptures out and chalenge each other with random quests to refute the other.
Michelle asks compelling questions . She is not peddling false doctrines. I don’t agree with some things, but on the polygamy question her scholarship is unmatched. And the scriptures are on her side.
@BridgeBuilder-x4c she just twists historical records, there is no scholarship on her side. And apart from the historical malpractice, she's petty and immature. The scriptures are absolutely not on her side. Scripture supports plural marriage. They support exactly what our doctrine is, which is that polygamy can be commanded (and has been) by God, but otherwise we should be living monogamy.
@@PeppermintZeal I have spent considerable time this year on the scriptures and verifying arguments and documents on both sides of the issue. I had started out trying to help a family member with their testimony, and found the scriptures to be on Michelle's side as well as the historical documents pertaining to Joseph Smith and the "principle and doctrine" of "many wives and concubines" as it is called in D&C 132:1. There is NO loophole in Jacob chapters 2-3 for "many wives and concubines." I have read the Church manuals as well and they cherrypick a few verses and wrest the scriptures. No one dare question 132 even though it is filled with doctrinal statements counter to scripture. Jacob 2:30 is NOT saying what the Church is pretending it says. Ask a high school English teacher. Here is what helped me. I highlighted all the sins in one color and all the commandments in another. I wondered what "THESE THINGS" was referring to. So, I colored in red font and capital letters "THESE THINGS" and "SUCH THINGS." In every case, "THESE THINGS" and "SUCH THINGS" are referring to the SINS. What the Lord is saying in Jacob 2:30, is that to raise up a righteous seed unto Him, he must give us commandments, otherwise we would HEARKEN to SIN. Then he goes on to explain what harm that would cause. How the Church is interpreting that verse, as you continue reading they are saying it is MONOGAMY that causes the harm! D&C 132 was introduced by Brigham Young in 1852 8 years AFTER the martyrdom. You can read about it in that General Conference Issue--September Special Deseret News Issue. Everyone should read Orson Pratt and Brigham Young's talks and they would no for sure, polygamy is NOT OF GOD.
The church has had many incorrect teachings throughout its history, and no member should wait around for a leader of the church to correct those teachings. That is trusting in the arm of flesh, and it is abominable before God. God warned us that there would be abominations taught and practice right before his very face in his own house. If we are ignorant to those things, then we will stumble just like the ancient Israelites. If we claim innocence and purity in our temple worship, then we are just as the Jews of old. It's time for this wayward generation to wake up. Likeen the words of Isaiah and Jeremiah to yourselves for your spiritual profit and learning.
Basically all of D&C disproves your claim. We don’t claim prophetic infallibility, but we do respect the authority of those who are called to lead His church. God will determine how well they govern, it is not your place to usurp that authority, God expressly condemns such an attitude. It is much more likely you are trusting in the arm of flesh when you reject the prophets and go your own way…not to mention that’s an obvious social fad to do nowadays. Read D&C 28:6-7, 112:15, 124:84, 128:9-10, 124:92-93, Hel 10:5,7, Lev 27:12, Mosiah 8:16, Especially go over D&C 107:78-84. There’s also Acts 1:23-26, D&C 70:3-4, 72:3, 107:99-100, 43:2-5, 104:52-53, 114:2, 90:36-37
@@HawkeyeVoid I'd rather not play the game of scripture barrage. I could fire back many many scriptures to show you within and without of the D&C, but you wouldn't believe them because you would say they are about something or someone else. Why is it that you say you don't claim prophetic infallibility, yet when I or someone make a claim that the prophet is wrong on something or has misstepped and should repent, there is immediate justification and dismissal of the claim with an appeal to authority allowing one man to maintain power and influence over them simply by virtue of the priesthood (D&C 121)? If you put the respect for authority into context of God's word, you would see that having respect doesn't mean complete and utter subjection to one man hanging on every word he speaks. Respect and sustain is always accompanied with accountability and repentance. At an institutional level, there is no accountability nor repentance towards the membership from my perspective. The apostles have become the head to direct the body, but the head of the body of Christ is not any mortal man. Don't you think it is lazy to give all of the responsibility to God allowing men to walk all over the church with no accountability? What is God going to do? Do you know what the scriptures say? I know the D&C has a parable that mentions what God will do to the church and its watchmen as well as the temple, but it's not just God doing it...people are involved too. It's not going to be pretty or fun, but when it is all said and done, it will be glorious. I'm not seeking my own way, and that is an arrogant and ignorant claim to make about the few who are truly seeking God by going out into the spiritual wilderness. If you sought to understand, you wouldn't be so judgmental. If you think that I am judgmental, then you might not be as familiar with the voice of God in scripture as you thought.
You realize that every time you say she “implies” or “claims” something she is reading directly from an original church history document or canonized scripture right? …and your last statement really missed the mark, you’re worried about people staying close to the “covenant path,” Michelle is worried about people staying close to God.
very well said. Michelle actually does the leg work, pours over the source material and provides it as evidence for her claims. I havent seen the same rigor from the other side.
OK, so I’m only 3 1/2 minutes into this, and I don’t know where you’re going with this, but I have a legitimate question. Hasn’t the church reversed or undone every single thing Brigham Young instituted? Haven’t we pretty much rejected all of his doctrine and teachings that he brought into the church at this point? I really thought that I had heard that somewhere like that on Ward Radio maybe?
@@6barbers so I did listen and it was not addressed. I know that the Essays (in the actual church handbook) reject BY’s teachings and I know I have learned in other places that the church has pretty much undone everything BY did.
@@angelamadsen416 BY teachings or “theories “. He did speculate and they were called theories. We have universities named after him. If your own faith, trust the enemies of the church who demean BY or not. I have not heard any prophet demean BY. I will trust them over internet church haters.
@@6barbersI think you should read the essays. Our church very clearly rejects what he taught… ESPECIALLY about blacks and the priesthood. And it doesn’t come from internet haters. You can read them in the actual handbook on the church app.
@@angelamadsen416 his theory on why the priesthood ban was wrong But you said “everything BY taught has been discredited”. Nelson was wrong about the vaccine being safe and effective…. They make some guesses sometimes - they are not deity. The Brigham was bad narrative leads you to be like ms Stone and many other apostates. Your path, your family …. Your faith. Best wishes
This video takes a personal attack to a new level. Michelle is seeing the problems with the doctrine, and true to mormon form; You are villanizing her.
She's so far from "Critical thinking." Her take on Brigham Young and Polygamy is rooted in falsehoods and apostasy. Many in our era have apostate views and are trying to mingle the philosophies of men with scripture. If you choose to go against the Prophets and Apostles you do so at your own risk. We know they aren't perfect and make mistakes but to embrace polygamy if it were an abomination like Stone says is more than some minor mistake. That would be full-blown apostasy and an end to our priesthood authority. It was NOT a mistake and it is not optional for us to pick and choose which gospel principles we want to follow or reject.
It's so cringe to watch these people talk! They are so deceived and have dark, empty, negative vibes. If you don't like the church, MOVE ON. Do NOT try to paint something beautiful into something evil, IF you don't want to become evil yourself.
I suggest you watch Michelle’s videos. She promotes faith, she doesn’t destroy faith. Ignorant people willing to lynch someone whose work they do not know threaten the health of the Church,
@@tgaty5378 I can imagine it would be hard if I knew her, but I don't. What I do know is alters are the same thing essentially as temples, and her questioning why do we need temples is way off... associating them with a lower law (related to kings)... Also thinking and speaking like she knows more than the prophet about these accepted core doctrines is equally off.
Nothing good can possibly come by saying the whole foundation of the church is flawed.. and that the brethren should repent.. WOW! how can anyone support her? What church do we have left if you remove this fundamentals?
I’m not sure what your goal was Jacob in making this video but as you read through the comments that your subscribers have made I hope you are satisfied with whatever it was you set out to do. It saddens me to read the distain and judgement coming from most of the comments. Especially from so many who have never seen or heard of Michelle. They are taking your carefully crafted 30 minute presentation and condemning her. Does it make you feel vindicated as you read every stone that is being thrown at her? The more that my eyes are opening up to the truth of our history the more I am realizing that we have been lied to in so many ways. It’s been a very painful realization. But the beauty of awakening to our deceitful past has actually been a blessing because it has led me on a journey to growing closer to my Savior. The hard part though is seeing so many here who profess to be His followers from His only true church hurling stones of such ugly words at Michelle. It’s as if they don’t know Jesus’s part of the story. Or if they do then they have missed the most important point of His message. The more that I take a step back and look at our church from a wider angle the more that I am seeing that for a church who professes to be Christ’s we sure do create some of the most self-righteous, judgmental, and cruel people. He must grieve often because I don’t believe that is His goal. But whatever your goal was Jacob I hope you feel you have achieved it. If it was to be on the Lord’s errand I would read through your comments section if I were you to see if you can hear the message of “well done thou good and faithful servant” from Him there.
Exactly. By their fruits. Men applauding Brigham Young for his abusive views toward women. God and JS ALWAYS condemned polygamy. No one can change those facts, all they can do is face them or call the sky red.
That girl has gone psycho. What happened to her? I enjoyed her lecture on "celestial homeschool," in which she quotes and supports the teachings of latter-day prophets (including Brigham Young). But lately? What in the even heck! Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Hey Jacob, you’ve done these little “exposés” on women having positive impacts on members by challenging the narrative, like Julie Hanks and now Michelle Stone. I wonder why you don’t also attack and expose the men challenging the narrative and actions of the church as well like Nemo the Mormon, Connor Boyack, or Rob Fotheringham? Do you feel more powerful attacking women of influence?
Maybe because stone has 100k subs and the boyak has 6k? Everyone knows nemo like Dan mccellan aren't believing members but trying to influence change from the inside. Even my exmo roommate who likes them acknowledges that they are clearly atheists (nemo/dan). This feels like what about ism since a cursory glance shows you are/were probably in Michelle's camp but you've already left.
@@carsonhawkes not whataboutism, I already posted another comment addressing the topic of the video. This comment is specifically questioning why he targets outspoken women, Julie Hanks only has 7K subs too, yet he attacked her. I was already leaving the church when I found Michelle’s channel, I left because of the plethora of other false doctrines taught not only polygamy. Michelle is actually devout to the church and encourages people to stay in it.
@Karli_searches_and_prays no Julie has 103k on Instagram where her main social outreach is. So it's not some hidden misogyny it's going after people with large influence who are teaching against the doctrines of the church and devaluong their covenants.
Far to much studying of imperfect people in the leadership of the church, and far to little studying of the scriptures. I don’t understand a lot of things that past leaders have done, especially Brigham Young, however to believe that they are corrupt and lost is to say the church as a whole can no longer be true. If it isn't, in the words of Tad R. Callister, where will you turn to find Prophets and Apostles,continuing revelation, priesthood authority, temples, additional scripture, power to seal families together, the correct nature of the Godhead, work for the dead, the plan of happiness in it's fullness, eternal marriage and on and on and on. There is only one church where all these perfectly pure gospel doctrines are found. If we don't have it right then the gospel is not on the earth. She needs to humble herself before it is to late.
The first half of Michelle's podcast was dedicated to talking about the scriptures. You're making statements rooted in ignorance. Hmm, y'know what else you don't have the gospel if you're missing? "I bear my solemn testimony that plural marriage is as true as any principle that has been revealed from the heavens. I bear my testimony that it is a necessity, and that the Church of Christ in its fullness never existed without it. Where you have the eternity of marriage you are bound to have plural marriage; bound to; and it is one of the marks of the Church of Jesus Christ in its sealing ordinances." - George Teasdale Make sure to include plural marriage in your next list :D
Jesus himself actually defined the gospel in the Book of Mormon (which contains the fulness of the gospel) and it doesn't include prophets, apostles, continuing revelation, priesthood authority, temples, additional scripture, power to seal families together, etc. It's actually pretty simple. It's in 3rd Nephi 27. I really wish we as a people actually believed in the Book of Mormon.
I disagree with Michelle's claim that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. But I firmly agree with her that polygamy was never commanded of God. The biggest reason why the Church split into pieces was because of fornication. Had Joseph not confused turbulent emotions for revelation and harkened to Jacob 2:23-29 (which was written for our day!), things would have been different. But it was not just Joseph that fell into the trap of polygamy. Other church leaders had no trouble competing against each other for wives. Stealing (and sealing) people's wives. The Saints were supposed to inherit the center of the country with fertile lands. Instead, because of wickedness, they were smitten and fulfilled Jeremiah 17:6. William Clayton's "Come, come ye Saints" fulfilled 2 Nephi 28:25. Many have rationalized Jacob 2:30 as being a loophole for polygamy. But "these things" referred, not to Jacob's discourse, but to wickedness throughout the chapter. Especially the whoredom of polygamy. The Church has still not sought forgiveness for falling into this abomination. Which has stunted the Church's growth ever since it was publicly proclaimed in 1852. Between 1852, when polygamy was proclaimed, and 1853, church convert baptisms fell 90% and stayed that way for the rest of the decade and never recovered from previous highs. It would not surprise me if the Church had 50 million converts now had it not been for this grievous error. I could write much more here. I am fully convinced the Church is true. And will stay that way for life. But it's time we recognize that as a church we are not ready for the sealed plates yet. One way to get closer to being ready is to recognize the injustice that Emma Smith faced when Joseph Smith wrote the abusive verses in 132:51-66, which need to be immediately removed from 132. It was not Emma that was destroyed. It was Joseph. Who the Lord soon removed from his position. I think God forgave Joseph for this as Emma saw a vision of Jesus before her death. And I think Joseph was under a mountain of stress when pushing for this infidelity from his marriage. But we as members need to see this displayed Joseph's fallen humanity and why we must only worship Christ. The emphasis on the Savior's name in the Church is an example how little by little the Church keeps progressing. And may the next step of progression be 132 D&C only retaining verses 4 to 33. And the rest be decanonized as being no longer applicable (and highly questionable!)
Thoughtful Faith: I would really like to hear from you on a particular topic. I'm going to make a claim that feels to me like it has merit... perhaps you can provide a reasonable response. There is only ONE temple. The temple of the body. The temple that we enter into in silence, with our eyes closed, where we commune directly with God. All other temples, the temples of the outside world, are images of the ONE true temple. They are not necessary, and can be quite a stumbling block if they distract us from the ONE true temple where God dwells.
She’s needs a membership council if she hasn’t had one already to help her if she’s willing to at least listen and to review the consequences of what she’s doing. The thing these people forget is that if 132 doesn’t count then 138 doesn’t either
you want her disciplined because she defends the words of Joseph Smith over Brigham Young? Truth be told, either Brigham was lying or Joseph was lying, but they both cant be telling the truth. For Michelle, she believes Joseph, and I can respect her for that.
@americathebeautiful9613 what Michelle is saying borders on apostasy. I've been in leadership positions and witnessed what goes on. If she doesn't change her ways she won't be a member for long.
@@americathebeautiful9613 Joseph and Brigham are both prophets so talking down one or the other is sinful. God didn't call you to do that. I know its popular these days to throw Brigham under the bus but how did that work for the Community of Christ?
Thank you so much! Though I’ve only viewed a few of Michelle’s podcasts they have caused me a lot of heartburn. What she says kinda makes sense sometimes, but it has never felt comfortable to my spirit. What you say on the other hand feels good to my heart.
It is sad to realize how much dogma has crept into our teachings. There is a bit of grieving over that. But there is also this amazing liberation and joy when you study out the actual scriptures and realize how beautiful they are, how plain and simple. The Lords law of marriage is pure and tender and sweet. We are so busy defending or not offending d&c 132 ‘principle and doctrine’ of ‘many wives and concubines” we miss the beauty and opportunity to appreciate and celebrate the tenderness and openness of monogamy.
Imagine coming home from faithfully serving a mission and find out your mom is doing this. Brian Hales tried to warn her as well but she wasn't listening. This was tactfully made. Please keep it up.
I have just discovered your channel and are listening with great interest to your presentations. However, this video has left me puzzled. You included a lot of sister Stone's false ideas, which is of course useful, rephrasing her arguments and briefly explaining her apostate focus but without teaching us on how to debunk her arguments . I am not sure to understand the goal of the video. Where are the aplogetic tools we need ?
Actually, the reason why so many of her videos are 2+ hours long is because she takes the time to cover Every.Single. argument and counter-argument to her claims, whether it's on the topic of pre-Nauvoo polygamy, or the land deeds, or the Nauvoo Expositor, etc. She leaves literally no stone unturned.
@@HistoricalMonogamyDoctrine By subjectively and selectively redefining the polygamy experience to fit her puritanical views on sex and marriage, it may seem as though she is uncovering hidden truths. In reality, she is engaging in a sophisticated shell game. She assigns emotional bias to words, experiences, and events, interpreting them through a lens shared by her followers. This shared bias creates an appearance of truth-telling, but the foundation of her claims collapses like a house of cards when compared to the promises made to the House of Israel and the revelations given to Joseph Smith. You are actively being drawn into a con.
Honestly, this video was a bit disappointing for me. You may all feel great bashing on this woman, but I noticed that Jacob took clips from her interviews, where she was expressing her confusion in navigating the LDS church and the leadership....which is a very emotionally charged topic for anyone in the church wrestling with the actual history of the church. I would much prefer to see you take on some of the information she's unearthed through hours of research. For example, we now have solid evidence that 1) Brigham Young "revised" church history and conveniently changed Joseph's personal journals, forcefully and unequivically condemning polygamy in every form, to say the exact opposite. 2) There are zero contemporary sealing documents with Joseph to other women, no gifts or letters from Joseph to any other spouses than Emma, and no children born to the 40+ supposed poly wives. 3) Michelle has established that many of the claims from the poly "wives" of Joseph just don't match the historical record and are often not even physically possible. For example, some woman claim that they were sealed to Joseph in buildings that weren't even built at the time, or with a bit of digging, find that that woman or Joseph weren't even in the same state at the claimed date! All of these claims come long after Joseph's death by woman who are actively practicing polygamy and who are trying to justify the practice for legal reasons (Temple Lot case). 4) At least one woman was apparently sealed to Joseph before he even received the supposed revelation ! (Fanny Alger I believe) 5) When we look at Joseph's bible translation edits, we find that he reaffirms the abomination of David's many wives and concubines and that the original marriage section in the D&C teaches monogamy and stood as the church's official stance even at Joseph's death. 6) Section 132 has undergone linguistic analysis and clearly does not match Joseph's other revelation styles....and it was brought forth long after his death by BY when trying to convince the saints of the new doctrine of polygamy 7) Brigham Young received the "revelation" long before Joseph while serving in England and was committing adultery with a married woman, whom he later married. (Yikes) 8) Hyrum also condemned and preached against the abomination up until his death. One of his sermons was removed from the Joseph Smith Papers project, even though it was originally accessible. 9) Emma and Joseph's children always proclaimed Joseph's innocence! 10) There are 15+ public and private denouncements of polygamy by Joseph, some just before his death. He is even on record as trying to find and excommunicate those who preached or practiced it and encouraged the Relief Society members to put down Any man who approached them to enter into this practice. 11) Conveniently, after Joseph was murdered, polygamy exploded! Hmmm. I am an active member of the LDS church who has dared to look into much of this evidence and I can tell you that it is HARD. I love so many things about the LDS church, but have now come to know that something went off the rails early on. God never commanded polygamy! Joseph was innocent. If you did a video on the thoughts I've grappled with since coming to this realization, you would come up with a worse clip for me! I am emotional. I feel so very betrayed. I don't know how to navigate my relationship with the LDS church. I go, but feel numb and angry so much of the time. Sometimes, I wish that I didn't know what I now know, but here I am. When I pray about how to go forward, I feel the prompting to just do my best and wait upon the Lord to continue to fully "cleanse his church" and rejoice in the coming day when we can have greater light and knowledge because the false traditions and darkness have been rooted out. I think that Jacob is a good guy, but this video doesn't address the very real challenge that many members are wrestling with. It goes after our fears of listening to someone "who should be excommunicated" instead of addressing the very important information Michelle has brought to the forefront.
It sounds like YOU would like YOUR moment of fame. I told my apostate brother as we were having an amicable discussion that he can find and add up his “evidences” to support his claims and on my side of the fence I can find and add up evidences supporting my claims. So it really boils down to: Do you WANT to believe? Either side has to face this question. I CHOOSE to believe in this church and know that all questions will one day be answered clearly. I CHOOSE to “err”, if it is such, on the side of believing and faith. It sure won’t hurt me if I’m wrong. Heaven forbid if I should live a clean, moral, unfettered life.
Well said, thanks for sharing. Church history actually starts to line up and make sense why things went the way they did once polygamy is taken off Joseph and placed on Brigham. I don’t blame Emma for not following everyone west when she knew what was being pushed with polygamy was not taught by her husband. Went to her grave defending that as well.
@@lipstillmondI’m not sure what you meant by “YOU would like your moment of fame”? Honestly, all of my life I’ve tried to hide from scrutiny and despise attention of any sort. As far as choosing to believe, I chose to believe that the Gospel which Christ taught is beautiful and perfect. I value it more now than ever. My desire is to continue to submit to the process of being cleansed of all false traditions and beliefs, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me feel. My testimony is much simpler now as is my focus to seek God’s mind and will and courageously do things that I feel are from Him….even if it means making a post like this:-)
@@leannerickords7380Thank you. I rarely comment, but was awakened early in the morning with a clear impression to say something. Maybe someone will be blessed by it!
Jacob, I listen to you and her channel. I respect you both and what both of you are doing. I have found that the argument about JSJr being the polygamy scapegoat to be very credible but this is something that each person needs to explore for themselves. That's not to say that you need to believe Brigham and other church leaders had JSJr killed, it just means polygamy is not of God and JSJr taught against it. Hemlock Knots is a YT channel that provides a lot of historical documentation to help in your exploration. If anyone is open and seeks the truth but you have not explored this topic yet, I would suggest Gwendolyn Wyne's video "Our Best Story | Polygamy: An Enemy Has Done This" as a starting point. Once you begin to pull at the threads you realize the history of the church and the quotes of the early church leaders are all heavily revised by Brigham Young and other apostles who took leadership after JSJr was killed. The quote that Pres Nelson gave around 8:30 is a "recollection" of Brigham Young's that he attributes to JSJr. For anyone who explores the polygamy history and his leadership as the Pres of the Church will find that Brigham Young is shown time and again to fabricate memories that only he and JSJr had together that really best serve Brigham Young. If you learn about the history of the temples while Brigham Young was Pres and what the endowment included, you would be shocked. Temples are important but because they are so important we need to make sure what we are doing in there actually matters so that we can worship in spirit and truth and not error.
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't accuse Brigham of the things you did above and then turn around and claim the priesthood keys somehow made their way down to the present. Moreover, your post shows your real issue - plural marriage itself. That's really the issue for all of you. Your emotional inability to handle it. Not who did or did not practice it. Otherwise, even if we were to assume Joseph didn't practice it - or practiced it differently - that is no reason to believe Brigham and other succeeding prophets were wrong. But that's your automatic conclusion. Talk about shaky ground. No wonder so many who go down this revisionist road apostatize.
@@jaredshipp9207 I don't think I'm doing anything of the sort (talking out both sides of my mouth). I didn't mention anything about priesthood keys, etc. You were right about one thing, I do have a problem with polygamy because I don't think it's godly and I've looked into this issue a lot and also early church history and can see the clear origins of it. JSJr and Hyrum clearly and publicly taught against polygamy and only promoted monogamy - read their own words and not anything that was attributed to them after their deaths. Don't be angry at me for holding an opinion, search for the truth, pray and study for yourself and if you are right, you can be at peace.
@@jaredshipp9207 Brother JaredShipp, How weird that you so quickly scorn and label others "emotionally or spiritually immature" (your preferred attack phrases, for some reason) for simply quoting the prophet Jacob (2-3) and Joseph Smith, et al, when these very prophets clearly and unequivocally condemn polygamy? Was the prophet Jacob (2-3) being "spiritually" and "emotionally" immature when he condemned polygamy as an abomination and whoredom? If Jacob was just "more mature spiritually and emotionally" would he then join the much more spiritually mature JaredShipp in courageously embracing polygamy for himself and for his people? If Jacob quoted himself (from chapters 2-3) on these comment boards, would you respond to him by saying: "Grow up, Jacob! Develop a little bit of spiritual and emotional maturity, dude! And then, you'll enthusiastically embrace polygamy as I do"? Why is it so easy for me--or anyone else reading your ad hominin comments--to imagine such?
@jonterry9843 You and others who hold your view are dishonest about Jacob. He clearly makes an exception while stating the standard is monogamy. You all see it but, because you have no answer for it, just as you don't for other parts of scripture where plural marriage was commanded, you pretend it's not there.
I’m 46 seconds in and it’s clear you haven’t interacted enough with Michelle, as you misrepresent her position. She’s said many times there are parts of 132 she actually loves, and her desire would be to see the problematic parts dealt with. She’s also expressed her compassion for the church leaders (BY, JT, and WW), as being simply human, doing what they thought was right, and even being inspired to do many good and right things. I think it might be a better option for you to dig into the sources on polygamy and present what you believe to be the most fitting narrative, vs seeking to bring down the good name of someone who is doing just what I suggested you do. I don’t think she’s going about everything she does and says in the most ideal way, but I think she knows that, and neither you nor I go about what we say and do in the most ideal way either (and if we think we do, then that’s just proof that we don’t.) My motive with this comment is the golden rule- I’d want someone to step in and stand by me if I were being misrepresented.
There is no question Joseph Smith reluctantly started polygamy as he was commanded to do. You would have to be insane to believe a cadre of church leaders conspired to come up with the idea. No serious student of church history thinks otherwize.
Bro I agree. This comment section is grilling her but there's no understanding, only name-calling. Her whole channel is about conversation. And most of this channel is conversation based too. I'm not sure she's fairly represented here.
This isn't a debate. You talk like some ditzy woman on UA-cam has somehow cracked the code of the history of plural marriage. This has all been addressed many times over for literally decades. Everyone, both in and out of the Church, knows Joseph taught and practiced it. The only ones who claim otherwise are a group of malcontent (soon to be ex) members who engage in revisionist history because they can't emotionally handle the issue.
Jacob, you publicly agreed to debate with Michelle. I think you even said you would do it in September... Instead of doing a debate like you agreed to, you are attacking her personally and publicly. This is cowardly. If you're so right and she's so wrong, let's hear a debate. You're obviously not opposed to debates. The only logical conclusion here is that you are afraid.
It is sad to see so many hateful comments from people who profess to be Christians let alone members of the church. I wonder if Jesus were to read through these comments what He’d have to say to those who are making them. Would He join in the calls to revoke her membership? Call her evil? Or do you think he just might have a thing or two to say to the people who are casting stones. I’m ashamed that members of Christ’s church treat fellow members so abysmally. I’ve watched Michelle’s channel. She has done amazing research into the origins of polygamy in the church. I’m grateful to her and hundreds of hours of work she has put in to gather ORIGINAL documents. I’ve learned a lot from her videos. Are you going to call me apostate? Question my decision to be a member of the church? Declare I shouldn’t go the temple?
The comments, to me, are similar to a video I saw earlier today talking about people who believe that The Book of Mormon is evil but *have not read it*.
She is not a trained historian and her “research” on polygamy is reflective of this. She is presenting it through the lens that fits the narrative she wants to believe and present, not through what the historical records show. I’m not a fan of polygamy or a polygamy apologist, but if someone isn’t trained in the historical method, they should be very careful about setting themselves up as an authority in presenting historical narratives.
She's went from critical thinking to anti-mormon rhetoric. She's crossed a big line. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true brothers & sisters. The Church is true.
Thanks for sharing this, Jacob, if only for the fact that I can tell a DISTINCT difference in the spirit I feel coming from her and the Spirit I feel coming from President Nelson. Now off I go to let more of that good Spirit back in!
had the same thought.. Just got home from the Temple this afternoon. As I get older, the temple becomes less boring, and more mind blowing. To insinuate the very foundations of temple work are flawed is to undermine ALL existing and new temples.. Almost as though we should tear them down. Yikes.. my life without the temple.. cant imagine it..
The temple is our golden calf??? Has she read Margaret Barker? David Butler? John Welch? The Book of Mormon? If she actually knew what she was talking about, she wouldn't be saying the things she is saying.
@@BlackDragon007-y6z suppose somebody where to try and tell me that the church has gone astray and that miracles have ceased in the church around 2014ish and then I experience miracles in 2016ish. Would I hold what they say with any weight? No. Even so it is with the temple. I know that the ordinances are authoritative and binding and that the keys of the priesthood are lodged in the church. Is it something I learned from the apostles and prophets or a bishop? No but from God himself. Peter knew Jesus Christ was the savior and redeemer through the Holy Spirit of prophecy and revelation. By that same spirit I know the truthfulness of that which is taught in the temple. There were those of old who received things before they were prepared and could digest the meat of the doctrine. Even so it is with Michelle Stone.
Not to mention that since ancient Israel had the temple mysteries as Butler rightly points out, then it was operated under the lesser priesthood of Aaron. Therefore the mysteries we have are not of the greater priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. There is fine deep nuance here. You can give it if you look. So, it's not wrong to say that the current temple worship has become idolatrous.
Jacob Hansen, this is just completely intellectually dishonest. There are legitimate questions. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying the church has a responsibility to answer to so many things. Too many in the church believe faith is simply believing the church is true despite many people attacking it. That isn't faith. That is hope. Hope in an institution that verifiably makes mistakes? Why would you not agree with Michelle Stone claiming ecclesiastical abuse for not being given the temple recommend for teaching "false doctrine" in class? You know this is dishonest Jacob. If I could be excommunicated for preaching in church that the prophets were wrong about people with black skin being given full membership, and the next week, after church clarification, be a member in good standing, proves there is ecclesiastical abuse and the church is obviously wrong about doctrines.
They've been answered. Many times over. People like Michelle Stone simply can't emotionally handle the answers so they engage in revisionist history. And the lazy learners and lax disciples are fooled by those like her.
@@jaredshipp9207 they havent been answered. That is simply a lie. Please explain to me why Joseph Smiths Journal was doctored to say the exact opposite about polygamy?
@americathebeautiful9613 It wasn't "doctored." Everyone, in and out of the Church, knows Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage. The only ones saying otherwise are a group of malcontent (soon to be ex) members who can't emotionally handle the issue due to spiritual immaturity. How do I know that? Because, even if (for the sake of argument) Joseph didn't practice plural marriage, or did it differently, that doesn't mean Brigham and other successors were wrong in how they did. Yet that is precisely the conclusion you and others come to. They were prophets too. It's not really about who did or did not practice it for you. It's the issue itself because you lack understanding of the gospel and Church history. And apparently you all think this Church is just another Protestant sect where you can feign loyalty to whatever you think the origin of the faith was, and your own personal interpretation of scripture, while still calling yourself a believing Latter-day Saint.
@@jaredshipp9207 Weird. My loyalty is to my Savior. Where's yours? I can't engage with someone who is incapable of having an honest discussion. Spiritual Immaturity? 😂 Man, my own church is just full of some of the most self righteous, judgemental Christians around.
Disappointed in this approach, Jacob. Michelle is sincere in her belief. I disagree with her, but what you’ve done here is attack a person and cherry picked the worst. This just gaslights your own audience. This type of content is a net negative for all parties involved.
You either believe in the restored gospel built upon apostles or not.. For her, clearly not. Im certain she will take many with her before this whole thing is over. Nothing to see here.. just another apostate that thinks that by starting some channel, the brethren will sit up and repent. Either jesus himself guides this church or not.. If not, move on to another church.. Its just another scam church if so.
I've watched enough of her videos to know these clips paint her in a correct light. Her lack of understanding of both gospel doctrine and Church history is so glaring, she has no business opining on something like plural marriage.
I have my issues with Michelle, but lack of research is NOT one of them. You have obviously not actually checked out any of her research. Just because you have come to a different conclusion, doesn't mean that she hasn't done research.
The whole time I was waiting for you to substantially rebuttal her claims and it never happened... I don't even agree with her, but I am a little perplexed by what the point of this video was because intentionally or not, I think in a lot of ways it frames her point even if it wasn't true.
When I see fancy buildings, I think about the workers who made the parts, sold them, and then were able to feed their families. As a business owner, I love seeing how purchasing goods and services blesses individual families.
Great point! Love this!
Yes, especially when goods are bought all over the country/world
Read "Window Maker" by Charles W Allen. I had the pleasure of meeting him on a trip to Nauvoo. There are SOOO many stories of people being blessed as they work on the temples.
Employing people, which I do, is only part of our obligation. Jacob 2thru3 tells us to obtain a hope in Christ then seek riches and help the poor. The poorest people are afflicted and not able to work. We are to make them Rich like us. I have not achieved this yet. But, studying the polygamy issue in Jacob 2-3 alerted me that we don’t hear much about our individual care for the poor.
And we are supposed to liberate the captive. Interestingly, the only captive group named by the Lord in Jacob are the tender daughters captive by ‘many wives and concubines” which is what polygamy is called in section 132:1
Continuing to defend this whoredom is perhaps one of the things we are called to repent of…
The garden of Eden WAS the first temple
Exactly. Michelle keeps showing that she has a fundamental misunderstanding of virtually every key doctrine of the restoration.
The Ark was also a temple
@@jacobg3684Yep.
@@aljeffs418exactly
Yes that is right on both .,
"Why do we decorate our temples when people are poor and starving?"
You know who else complained about money not being spent on the poor? Judas Iscariot. John 12:4. 🚩
Good point
I help to run a charity that builds schools in Kenya. The reason we don't just buy food and give it to them is because THAT DOES NOT WORK. That does not end poverty. What ends poverty is when people are educated and spiritually inspired to change their lives and pull themselves out of poverty. Your comment just shows your ignorance of how to eradicate poverty. It's definitely NOT about handing out food. I know that first hand. Jesus and his church help to take spiritual poverty and starvation out of people so they can take themselves out of poverty.
@@davidfrey5654 What makes you think I'm 'uneducated' about what really helps the poor? Because I 100% agree with your stance. My original post implied the exact opposite: people who complain about how the Church spends its money are on the wrong track.
@@davidfrey5654 yes, as somebody has worked on self-sufficiency projects for 20 years and currently live out of the country… What you say is absolutely correct… People have this idea at the church just give all their money away… That would solve absolutely nothing.. people that make comments like that are not in the trenches with HUMANITARIAN work… The only thing that works is to increase their spirituality and teach principles by holding their hand… Many times it takes generations… But handing money out does nothing
@@davidfrey5654 I think the OP agrees with you lol!
"That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the
way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and
if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives." - Joseph Smith, "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith", pgs. 156-57
You nailed it..this quotation is exactly what I'm looking for.
Spot on
Say it louder for those in the back!
Maybe she can take solace in the fact that Joseph Smith is only referring to men in this quote ;-)
Yeah...remember that time when a bunch of apostles had apostatized...and so they got a new batch and held a meeting where Hyrum and Joseph gave them a heaping warning that they shouldn't lift themselves up thinking they're something great...to watch out for pride...and Joseph even told them this message you shared.
Faithful members have experienced enough internet critics parading as faithful members who were "just asking questions" and later turned into the church's most hardened critics to not have trust issues with someone like Michelle.
@@jacobmayberry1126 Because it is usually a long process. One true believing member doesn’t just wake up and decide to become a hard critic.
It usually happens the more they dive into Church history, into what former Church leaders have taught that is messed up, realizing that the Church has not been very honest with its finances, and so on.
So yes, asking questions after enticing g that things don’t add up, can eventually turn a person into a hard critic.
@@mgeuleinstsear exactly right. This lady is on here is wacked but she has some really good points. Polygamy is crazy. No God would command that stuff. I guarantee all these faithful members would not live this law if it was commanded by the prophet today. They would leave. Good point on the temples. I just cannot see Jesus if he were here today condoning spending billions on ornate temples to him rather than use that money for helping the poor and afflicted. Makes zero sense.
@@MRDMRD0099 You know the church does both. Builds the houses of the Lord (done in the bible) to do eternal works AND donates billions to help those in need.
Calling into question the motivation of those who use their global platform to criticize and exploit the Lord’s church for her popularity or some other reason that only she knows, I think is very crucial to warn others to steer clear of these things💥
So why is she allowed to maintain her membership while simultaneously WORKING PUBLICLY AGAINST IT and it’s leadership
22:27 they're all so giddy to use a naughty word, acting like immature 12 year olds
Yeah that was cringe. I curse all the damn time.
So cringe 😂😂
For the record, Adam absolutely built a temple. It's in the Apocryphal accounts, and hinted at in D&C 106.
Also, Shem had a temple, Abraham had a temple, Jacob built a friggin temple. This lady is so lost. She'll drag her entire posterity into oblivion.😢
Exactly, even using just the Bible Abraham and Isaac made ‘altars’ that they returned to and upheld over years. Doesn’t sound as temporary as she implied.
Hopefully not.
Show us those things in the Bible. That’s what actually matters.
Yes and they were always on the move. Lol who would have time. What better place then to come to the alter in the Temple.
Gangster
I remember reading about a guy who was upset about extravagant excess in worshipping Christ instead of serving the poor.
The church you go to isn't nice? All money brought in goes to the poor?
@@CameronVanTassell He’s making a reference to Judas Iscariot.
I was thinking of this one too. I just couldn't put it into words as nicely as you did. I thank you for expressing what my mind couldn't express quite right.
@@CameronVanTassell the Chosen is a good show, worth witching and learning of Jesus. He had a conversation with Judas just about that topic.
I love scriptural comparisons to today. Have younread Isiah 1 lately?
“The foundations (literally and figuratively) of the temple are sandy”
“Don’t take my temple recommend away!”
This contradiction is very telling.
@@kalejuice5701 to be fair, the temple recommend is held as synonymous with Celestial standing in the church, so someone raised in the church, even someone as far fallen as Michelle, is going to instinctively jerk at the suggestion of losing it. Michelle is a ball of contradictions right now because she is balancing her family's long history in the church with some very heart wrenching tragedies and how those around her, especially leaders, responded to those tragedies. She's basically formed a conclusion at this point and is trying to do the research to prove her conclusions as to why what happened to her happened.
Misery loves company and those who have left the Church are misery magnets for each other.
Yes...this...😞
I feel like there is some guilt there still as well. And, it's nice when you're not the only one guilty. It's that false "comfort" you feel in a group when your whole group gets caught doing something wrong, like you were all playing baseball and a window gets broken. Sure, it does bring you all together in a way, but it's not a long-lasting "brotherhood". It's a sandy foundation, and it WILL crumble.
wellsaid
Yes, all us exmormons are miserable. If Exmormonism was so miserable, then why haven’t we comeback? Nobody wants to be miserable. I know if I was miserable I would to make the changes necessary to be happy again.
@@Lomochenkowhy are you on here commenting? If you're so happy go enjoy your life. Be free. Don't hang out here.
😮 "Someone correct me if I'm wrong." Consider yourself corrected, Sister Stone.
"Sister Stone what you taught over the pulpit was false doctrine..."
"NO NOT LIKE THAT! CHURCH ABUSE!"
@@topazblahblah actually, Jacob refuted very little if anything. His “rebuttal” was basically one big logical fallacy salad! 😂
@@GCS3T Wrong
100%
@@wfTitus that was right on par with Jacob’s video. Well done.
What first turned me away from Michelle stone is that she immediately weaponizes her empathy and emotions the second anybody questions her about anything. Then she exposed her views and validated everything I initially thought of her.
What you are describing is exactly what the church does though.
@@americathebeautiful9613 Can you explain and give some examples.
@@americathebeautiful9613 I have yet to see the Church break down into literal tears calling people mean - relying on sympathy hor her as a woman to manipulate them.
Sorry. No, the Church does nothing like that.
As you get older, you get better at smelling out the emotional manipulators.
@@americathebeautiful9613explain please.
High Nibly has awesome lectures on so many things, like temples, on of her concerns. So many questions have answers. Reasonable answers.
*Hugh Nibley. And yes, he was brilliant.
i joined the mormon church years ago, after studying Nibley's teachings
@@MrBillmechanicwhat about studying Christs teachings?? Shouldn’t you have your testimony on the rock not the arm of man?
@@jodeanmay8844 Oh brother. 🙄
@@jodeanmay8844 By that logic we would have to rule out studying the words of mortal men like Peter or Paul then, which is a conclusion I adamantly disagree with. The Bible is awesome. But the reality of it is that huge portions of it consist of sermons given by INSPIRED MORTAL MEN, like Peter, Paul, James, and John. Almost nothing in those books, letters, or epistles were the literal words that Christ spoke from his very own lips. One of the challenges of this life is determining who is an inspired man of God and who isn't. As Matthew reads, "ye shall know them by their fruits." Hugh Nibley was either inspired or he wasn't. But his words can't be thrown aside simply because he was a man. His words, just like any words you might say to me, must be pondered and prayed about on their own merit.
This is not the first time that some in the church have argued against the doctrines that came out of the time in Nauvoo. That was why some of the splinter groups left the church after the martyrdom.
@@KristianPetersen No. The current "official LDS church" IS a break off. It's a break off from what Joseph really started and supported.
@@Hpencer The Lord named his church in the D&C and specifically said it would be called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in the last days. The current LDS church is quite literally that same organization and has continued to receive light and knowledge and revelation from God. Joseph himself said on many occasions that there was so much more to be revealed. The vast majority of those Joseph called to lead the church continued with (and others eventually returned to) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All other "mormon" groups are literally in apostasy from that church.
@@Hpencer exactly!
@@koko00713 who is the enemy that the lord warned about in the parable of the redemption of zion? (D&C 101:51)
@@koko00713 Technically it said "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", not "Latter-day", and by that logic, the Strangite church is the true one.
Yeah given how she has distorted her interactions with Brian Hales and has accused me of being a spy for the church and Brian based on mininal interaction with me, I have a really hard time trusting her recounting of events with her Bishop. He can't give his side of the story. Sorry not sorry, but she dug a hole for herself when she gave us multiple reasons to not trust her.
Ummm... you seen her video with Brian Hales? The first 10 minutes he's pure as*hole. She handled him very well considering he used her dead baby to call her an apostate. He's an evil man
Honestly I appreciate SO much your analysis. It exhausts me to listen to her.
That is some of the most blatant apostasy we’ve seen in a long time.
Dan are you her Bishop? Asking for a friend.
@@TurdFerguson-cz5dx No, but I hope he sees this.
@@danellsworth9922 The interview with Clark Aboud or the hit piece propaganda done by Mr Hansen?
@@TurdFerguson-cz5dx The excellent compilation warning of apostate messaging, compiled intelligently by Mr. Hansen.
Don't forget to add the Hulu series that starts on September 6th.
As for me, I believe Joseph
That is ambiguous. Do you believe Russell M. Nelson. Do you believe Christ?
He made some big claims with no actual evidence. I am definitely skeptical.
@@RonDoty-i7z I believe Christ who fiercely condemns ‘many wives and concubines as whoredom. The question is not, why does Michelle believe Christ and Joseph Smith. The question is, why does President Nelson not believe Christ and all the Holy scriptures on the matter?
Perhaps he has come around, but there is not yet consensus in the quorum. Pertaining to the Priesthood ban, prophets wanted to lift it from the early 60’s on, but took until 1978 before they got all but 2 on board. They met without those two when the famous revelation was received, then the 2 got on board READ SECOND CLASS SINTS. Pres kimballs son gave a historian his fathers papers because he felt this story should be told
18:39 that's not abuse, it's well known that is what could happen if you openly teach false doctrine in church functions
I knew a missionary who got too political during a talk. The Bishop took him aside and told him it wasn't appropriate. That's just a Bishop doing his job....smh.
Did you watch the og video or just that clip? From the version I heard that was DEFINITELY abuse and would have shaken any normal reasonable person. As someone who has personally experienced ecclesiastical abuse I can say that we should not be victim blaming or victim shaming in this case but rather have compassion and love for someone that chose to still stay in the church after this kind of mistreatment and honestly shameful behavior
@@alittlebitofmary I agree that it sometimes happens, however in her case, which is her lying about other things (the fullness of the gospel) and then hearing her smug account of disciplinary attempts, I don't believe it was that off.
@@stephtimms1776 she already shouldn't have a temple recommend. that is just a fact. The recommend questions as if you support the prophet and the apostles. She has stated that she answers yes to that because she supports Joseph Smith, not the current prophet. That is a obvious lie and already shows she is willing to twist things to get the outcomes she wants.
@@miclowgunman1987 That is spooky! The man who went to the wedding supper without a wedding garment in Matthew 22: 12 comes to mind...
Many of these Latter-Day Saint influencers who frequently speak ill of church doctrine, the priesthood, and modern-day prophets/apostles all share the same problem: arrogance. They think that because of their careers and their large followings, they can assert themselves as more reliable spiritual guides than the formally ordained who actually understand and believe in the Gospel of Christ.
These influencers will criticize both the Brethren and Gospel teachings for not being enough like the world. They opt for immediate emotional reactions rather than properly analyzing who or what is right or wrong.
How many of them are attractive middle-class American women? In other words, pampered, accustomed to taking things for granted, and habituated to getting their way by batting their eyelashes.
@@samwyze64 you have a lot to learn.
@@Hpencer You like to comment on Thoughtful Faith videos, yet it seems like you don’t even like Jacob’s content or the church itself. You do realize the target audience for Thoughtful Faith is faithful Latter-Day Saints right? Do you really think your negative comments are going to change anyone’s mind?
@@samwyze64The more LDS members are exposed to alternative views, the more likely they are to change their minds.
The Church itself changes its mind a lot too:
Polygamy ( 1890)
Curse on the blacks ( 1978)
The Temple Ceremony (1990)
Also, people getting their own planet (1998)
The origins of the B.O.M. people (2007)
@@samwyze64 I don't care what the target audience is. Truth is important. "Faithful LDS" aren't faithful LDS. They believe and practice things that completely contradict many statements of past church leaders, Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Bible, parts of D&C and especially the original D&C section 101 that spoke against polygamy.
Thank you so much for your continued willingness to take these issues head on, repeatedly, respectfully and intentionally. Much needed.
I wish you were able to actually address and deconstruct her arguments as opposed to just saying “this is what she is saying, she is speaking against the church” it’s like okay, I know that obviously from the first minute of her speaking. I wish you could address specifically how what she is doing wrong rather than just having president Nelson say the churches position.
He might do a debunking some day, but I think his purpose is more to simply show her disconnect with the Brethren. To caution us about how much credence we might think of giving her.
He has done several things where he addresses her argurments, perhaps most openly in a debate not that long ago. Just take a look through his videos and you'll find what you're looking for.
Go watch his previous videos about polygamy.
Yeah some of her arguments but not all of them. I haven't seen him do a video on the Whitney documents, Brigham Young altering the JSP or polygamy from England. If you have any videos from Jacob Hansen on these topics please send them my way! Or you can continue to point his few videos on the Josephs polygamy to say "look he covered it". When in my opinion the bulk of it he has not.
Ad Hominem attacks for the win! If we can scare everyone away from watching her content by convincing them she's gone astray, we don't need to bother confronting actual proof! Good work everyone.
You realize that Clark Aboud has never been a member of the church right? You keep calling him an ex member, but he’s not.
I called this SO long ago. I knew she was going to fall away from the get go. She's been poisoned by degrees
She has been simmering in the pot like a frog. She doesn't even realize what is happening.😭
When will church leadership say enough is enough and excommunicate her? What more does she have to do or say?
I heard her speak one time a few years ago, and knew. Now I guess I’m a prophet because every prediction I had about her path after that first time I heard her has now come 100% true. Sure, she’s sweet, she’s sad for her rainbow kids, and there’s nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is her being allowed to remain a member. She’s not worried though, she knows exactly what she’s doing, and she will ride that gravy $$ train until the track finally derails or she’s asked to leave the station on another train very soon.
Reading the comments is so fun, but sad at the same time. We all just need some love for ourselves and others. I know I do! Grateful for my Savior who loves us all.
I like her and think she is a blessing to the church. Even if she were wrong, we ought to speak our ideas freely.
Her persona is so bubbly and friendly, smiling, laughing, and "gosh" this and "gosh" that. But she's a wolf in sheep's clothing teaching heretical lies and false doctrine. She doesn't seem to have a doctrinal understanding of basic restoration truths--like the role of the prophets and apostles as well the temple. In the NT we learn that Christ's church would be built on the foundation of prophets and apostles with Him as the chief cornerstone--not a foundation of local leaders.
In Joseph Smith's lifetime, he never built a church, or chapel, he only built, or attempted to build, temples. His focus was on the eternal. Michelle and her cohorts are earthbound and kicking against the pricks as they malign the Lord's anointed. This week's CFM lesson is about how prophets operate and function in a wicked world. They're not popular they teach us hard things sometimes and have expectations that we try to live a Christ-like life. It takes humility and the Spirit to follow the prophets--but there's safety there. She's not just asking questions, she's an accuser of the brethren (who else does that?).
What you said here reminded me of a thought I had while listening to her. She puts great effort with her schmoozy smile and lilting voice, into trying to prove tge churchbis false and not to believe. What she doesn't address, at least insofar as I can see here, is what her alternative us. If tgis church isn't true, where is the true church? The church has to be founded upon apostles and prophets according to the teachings of Christ Himself. It has to be led by revelation likewise. Well, where does she say that church is? Perhaps she wants everyone to go join the Southern Baptists but I don't see her saying so. Perhaps she would say that God would raise up another Joseph Smith type to restore the true church, but from what she says here I don't notice her offering what she believes to be the true church. Maybe she simply believes there no church is true or all other churches are true excepting the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I don't know but it seems all she is doing is trying to get people di reject the church so her efforts are about tearing down and destroying faith rather than building up and pointing toward anything that could be argued as truth. That is one of Satan's top tactics. He can only destroy. He can not build. He reduces and doesn't add. He erodes rather than increase.
I wouldn't put too much stake in her personality. I personally know her extended family and they are all that way. Their sugary personality comes off as insincere to a lot of people, but the Brady family are wonderful and very passionate people. Her mother is Janeen Brady who wrote the child's hymn "I Lived in Heaven". I wholly believe that she believes every word she says on some level. She's had some very hard life experiences that ended up warping her views and leading down this path. Social Media and being egged on by Anti's caused her to spiral.
All I could think of when Michelle Stone was talking was 2 Nephi 26:29 "for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion."
sounds like the quorum of the 12 and first presidency.
@@americathebeautiful9613By what standard, exactly?
@@americathebeautiful9613 they seek the welfare of Zion, she sets herself up as a light unto the people with that ridiculous looking smirk she has on her face at the start of every video.
@@jacobkunz9425
Maybe that they're filthy rich, spend less than 1% of tithing money on the poor, build extravagant temples, avoid talking about literal crimes they committed, receive adoration and love from millions of people, celebrate themselves and say "all is well in Zion", lie to the people, use lawyers to intimidate people and towns into capitulating to their demands...
I dunno, maybe a standard of basic decency?
@@americathebeautiful9613 that is not the same thing at all. Not even remotely. They were called of God as was by Aaron. Priestcraft is when a person puts themselves forward or up as a light for gain or praise of the world.
Not the same at all.
It’s amazing how someone can completely set aside history, facts, and central principles of the gospel and still have so many followers.
Satan took 1/3 of God's children while still living in God's presence! It's not surprising.
Children are trained from early ages to have shallow temporary relationships and thinking. John Taylor Gatto explains how they do this so the masses are easy to manipulate.
@@loudogg73 it just takes a tiny bit of critical thought to understand that the “history, facts and central principles of the gospel” have all been corrupted, long before you or I were here. So many things Brigham young taught are false. Even the modem church had rejected many of his teachings.
@@MagnusTheBiased-tw6zy There is, for example, no historical evidence to suggest Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. Persecution for practicing polygamy was actually a major part of why Joseph was killed. Autobiographies and court records of his polygamous wives exist. Is all of this made up? If so, prove it.
@@loudogg73 that's Jacob.
She is terrifying. She has that sweet Relief Society sister voice. She can do a lot of harm to those that are babies in the faith.
I am also confused why she is concerned about losing her temple recommend since she says the temple is a false belief.
Good point!
I’ve been asking myself this question for a while. Why does she care?
Because she wants others to believe she is in "good standing" with the church so she can lead others out. The whole reason she stays it so she can lead others out. She feels responsible to "expose the corruption within the church." People take her more serious when she can claim she is still IN the church.
It’s absurd she still has one.
She reminds me of Professor Umbridge with her sweet voice carrying out the works of darkness and contention
"He/him/son/brother" in the scriptures and she thinks thats a "problem"
Dude, she is messed up.
Outstanding work Jacob. Are there any formative plans to sit down with Michelle for a discussion, like you talked about after the Isbell debate?
Jacob is trying to get her Exed! Outstanding?
Yea Jacob?????
I hope so! They both know our Savior. I think it would a fascinating and interesting discussion.
He already did. I believe with ward Radio too.
It was supposed to be in September but he backed out.
Her motivation is crystal clear. You can hear it in her voice and see it in her demeanor. Thank goodness we have a true prophet to lead us instead of all this nonsense. She fills me with despair. The prophet and apostles fill me with tender sweetness and hope🌟
So true! Satan is the father of contention, anxiety and criticism! Our prophet and apostles are the kindest most compassionate men found on earth and we are so blessed to have them! They teach the true doctrine of Christ showing us why the members are so good! You cannot get good fruit from a corrupt tree! Jesus 101
It's called cognitive dissonance. I'm pretty sure you would have said the same thing to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lehi, and I might even add Jesus of Nazareth.
@@johnwoolf2383 no it’s called spiritual discernment. Cognitive dissonance is what this false prophetess is experiencing when she goes to church and tries to undermine its teachings. Being able to recognize the difference between what is coming from darkness and what is coming from light is a gift of the Spirit.
You mean false prophets Brigham Young and Nelson
@@johnnyscoolstuff8427 why would I mean that? Brigham Young was a famous pioneer that forged the West and founded many communities. President Nelson is a renowned heart surgeon and amazing man. What have you done besides playing guitar that has given you authority to sling mud at upstanding God fearing men?
Holy moly, she's grasping at straws!!!!
I don't agree with the LDS church anymore. However, I do think she is a modern day Nehor.
1. Do they teach what they claim to be true or what they want to be true?
2. Do they want to be popular and get a lot of attention for teaching their message?
3. Do they want to make a living, or financially gain, from teaching their message
4. Do they only speak about things that people generally find to be interesting or popular?
Michelle clearly fits this pattern.
💯
"I don't have an end goal"... beyond destroying God's kingdom
If you don't have an end goal, you'll get used for someone else's.
Exactly.
Ya ... Her end goal is to lead others from truth... I used to be "friends" with her... Sigh... She is a wolf
I listened to hours and hours of her podcasts. Her method is to take some facts, add a bunch of speculation and sign reading, and bake at 325 degrees for an hour.
If you think the church is bad, the temple is bad the why would you want a temple recommend.
I saw one of her latest episodes where she talked about going back to the Temple and having a new perspective and spiritual experience. I think we need to be kinder to each other and let ourselves and other grow and change. I know that is what our Savior wants for us. I didn't see that episode with that couple. I think she has changed a lot of her feelings since then. She wants to follow the Savior.
@@jacbox3889but she is continuing to preach her lies and continuing to push her falsehoods as truth while supporting and associating with people hate the church
She hasn't changed anything... Except for approaching a new way to lead people away
I ask this question with a humble heart. If she feels so many things are wrong, why not go?
Because she wants to make sure she drags as many others out with her when she goes.
@@PeppermintZeal I'd say the devil does, and he has a hold of her heart and mind presently... sadly.
Misery loves company.
She will be less effective at leading people out of the church if leaves it.
I once heard it described as the wolfs in sheep's clothing are those who were once faithful but now have been hollowed by letting evil spirit affect them to the extent that now they are like them and now are the wolf in sheep's clothes.
These may be a test for all true believers. I would agree she needs to be addressed by her priesthood leaders. But could it be they are afraid of the PR or maybe they have and because the church does not comment of these matters, she may not on her own because she gets more effect if she is a member.
Also Michelle talking about “pride” is HILARIOUS
I wonder how much you have studied Isaiah 2.
@@MommaCrissa I've studied it. Why?
@nickallen2288 I thought the very same thing. Dripping with irony.
@@MommaCrissaI like Isiah 3-9 more. His prophetic call. His theophany. A beautiful temple endowment text.
We all have pride. Elder Bednar last conference said the brethren are not immune. How about we not mock. And simply engage in the conversation. Do you have something constructive to add? There are legitimate questions I have had about the temple over my lifetime. And some of those things have been removed. I love the temple. I love the Church, but question why an AI bot is now giving answers to doctrinal questions… It seems to be adding to the dogma, vs enhancing scripture study. These are questions. The internet is the public square. Should we not be able to engage in civil and even loving discourse?
This is a hit piece and Jacob knows it. You can take hours and hours of content and pull a few snippets out to create your narrative but you have misrepresented Michelle here. On her clip with her guest named Clark, he is a never Mormon not an ex or anti Mormon and Michelle does not promote or subscribe to the inside job theory. She’s just not afraid to have people on that disagree with her. You should watch her most recent content on temples and spiritual experiences she’s had there. Anyone who is honest and has studied the evolution of temple ordinances will admit that that there were originally corrupt and blasphemous doctrines taught during the endowment. You don’t have to be afraid of the idea that the LDS church can still be true while false traditions have crept in and may still exist today. You are aloud to disagree with church leaders, thank goodness many church members and leaders stood up to those like Benson, Petersen, McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith etc when it came to teachings on race. Would you make this same video about Hugh B Brown and Lowry Nelson as they stood up for our African American brothers and sisters? They spoke directly against the church leaders of the time. What I respect about Michelle is that she’s vulnerable and she’s willing to put herself out there to call out inconsistencies, regardless of threats or intimidation.
I appreciate this comment
Best comment here!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Adam God Doctrine, polygamy terms, teachings of Blood Atonement, and the oaths of vengeance were all added to the wording of the endowment after Joseph Smith’s death, in addition to those of African descent being banned from the temple after his death.
Does she think God has called her to fix the church? By accusing prophets of lying and telling her bishop to “shove it up his a$&? When she stops “evil speaking” and repents, she will start to get true revelation again.
No God did not call her to Fix the Church, She does not hold the keys to counsel the Lord. She is making the same mistake as Babbit Did mentioned in the D&C..
@@m4oni what’s hilarious is that you’re so confident in your ignorance. You know nothing about Brigham Young except for what you’ve been indoctrinated with. That’s a good boy. Stay in the center of the lifeboat!
She does believe that. She believes she has been led down this path to correct people.
@@RichardChappell1She has no authority from God to counsel his prophet or his anointed servants to tell them what to do in the kingdom..
Um. . . We are all called to abandon the false traditions of our fathers
If she thinks she had been called of God to expose lying prophets, then I claim that God told me she is apostate. Who is right? We both claim same authority, same revelation....none. Why would she want to discredit the place where we are taught to keep our Covenants (including refraining from evil speaking), or be under Satan's power.
Really easy line of authority. Clear direction with who the Lord communicates especially concerning other people. She doesn't hold keys over anyone in the church therefore she can not receive revelation on behalf of other people and correct them from divine authority.
@@ClintK. yup. my claim to authority was the same as hers....none.
@@m4oni 10/4 I gotcha now 😀
The one who bares the good fruit… aka Michelle.
You ask who’s right? Who the Spirit testifies to me is right, that’s who. I have the authority to know for myself. As we all do.
It is each of our birthright to commune with our Father and have authority for ourselves in understanding truth. It doesn’t matter who it comes from. Truth is truth and the spirit will be there.
In that story she told about the bishop that said she could lose her temple recommend because of the heresies she was teaching at the pulpit, she forgot to tell that the bishop had a huge cigar and puffed smoke at her while he leaned back on his chair with his feet on top of the table. 😒
😂
That did not happen. They aren't mafia bosses they do not choose to be called. If you disagree with the doctrine why do you stay?
What's wrong with someone finding a way that works for them to stay in the church? If you don't agree, that's fine, move on. This is the only way she's able to stay active, let her be.
A lot of people have no setting between "go along with everything" and "fight against it, because if anything bad happens, its all systemically corrupt!" I have a hard time imagining that Zion can be built in either mode of thought.
This has more to do with what is true doctrine and doctrine of man
@@diegolucero9910 I disagree. I think when people don't know how to deal with ambiguity, mistakes, they either shrug... or they need to FIND doctrines that rationalize: this uncomfortable thing isn't just mistake ITS SYSTEMIC!
For example, Stone has a feminist bent that I can *in part* agree with. Looking at the historical record and our that we have a Heavenly Mother. that 1) knowledge of Heavenly Mother was excised from our religion by apostate priests before Christ 2) Our church really hasn't restored much beyond knowledge of our existence and so 3) Our church is male-centric in a way that not just reflects the gospel, but reflects an on-going apostacy relating to the divine role of Motherhood that was once understood better by Israel. I think she would probably nod her head with a lot of what I'm saying.
Most people look at our lack of info on Heavenly Mother and just shrug and think "must no be important" and continue on with life as usual. A small group of people, Stone, this is WRONG and people keep doing wrong things, so this is a conspiracy! And get pushed further and further into the doctrines of men trying to justify their frustration.
A more moderate path is to think. Joseph Smith did say understanding the nature of God is really important. We understand almost nothing about our Heavenly Mother. Maybe there's a lot of personal work to do for me learn more, and maybe God will help me be and instrument in helping others ponder on the significance of the doctrine of Heavenly Mother. But since I view myself in a position of supporting those in the church (instead of crusading against them), I can also balance that view with other ideas, my leaders can still be inspired, even if they're not choosing to pursue the revelation that seems pressing to me. If I am right, God can help me learn for myself, and maybe God can help be me a catalyst for change... And sometimes I can still be wrong.
If you're not capable of nuance, at some point, you will either stop learning the gospel or you will bend it to fit your inflexibility... and at that point it becomes the doctrine of men. The underlying problem is that people are ill-equipped to build the kingdom of God with wisdom and patience. Their goal is not to teach doctrines of men, but their impatience and pride will drive them to it when they can't bear to work through trials with patience.
@@AlecSorensen Great comment. It's important to have an open mind and heart and to learn patiently.
@@AlecSorensen Excellent point. I take this as one of our main challenges of mortality: to develop the humility to discern and walk that narrow way between those natural tendencies.
@@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp Yes, and the frightening idea that God does give us what we want, and lets us believe what we want. If what we want is to crusade against another group so we can feel self-righteous, he'll let us believe that--even of His own church. If what we are looking for is ways to build his kingdom with the people who are around his, He will help us find those opportunities.
Michelle isn't dumb. She understands optics. Put the old school LDS artwork behind her. Put the type of flowers you would see in sacrament meeting.
For anyone that actually reads the scriptures for themselves 90% of what she says is easily refuted.
I can't believe she is still a member. What is wrong with her Bishop and SP? There is easily more than enough evidence to EX her, which should be done immediately.
Yes, the church leadership in her area need to meet with her and encourage her to repent or to have her membership removed for apostasy if she chooses not to repent. We have these processes in place for a reason.
@@koko00713 repent of what? Asking questions? Reading history?
The LDS corporation is part of the modern day secret combination spoken of in the BoM. It took me a long time to see it.
RMN admits in his biography that he belongs to a satanic fraternity. The church is in bed with the globalists.
where did God command polygamy outside of 132?
Exactly. If I was the artist of those paintings, I’d ask her to remove them from her backdrop.
@@Kait272Jacob 2:30 gives God’s explanation for when He may command it. And we find it in Genesis, which is missing a lot of God’s communication. I.e. God cares about sacrifice even though we don’t see Him commanding it, though we do see it in the Pearl of Great Price.
The Apostle Paul warns the younger Apostle Timothy to beware of “vain babbling” and to forget not the Gift!
Exactly, and vain babbling is exactly what we get from the LDS church today. Falsely claiming that Joseph was a ConMan, an adulterer, a polygamist, and a man who pursued teenage girls for sex. Vain babbling about how Joseph supposedly used a rock and a hat to translate, which would make the gold plates absolutely unnecessary. Vain babbling about Brigham Young, being a great leader, when he was truly a tyrant and a very ungodly man. And even vain babbling about how are Joseph and Hyrum where killed by a mob, when the truth is that they were killed by their own friends inside the jail.
You are right, we should heed the counsel we are given in scripture, but we truly need to know who is babbling and who is not.
yes, her videos are confusing, I prefer to watch and listen to our leaders in general conference and reading our scriptures.
As Isaiah said, some prefer to hear the "smooth things. Isaiah 30:10
@@johnwoolf2383 hahahaha
She speaks about all these horrible experiences and comes to these devastating conclusions about the church, it's leaders, it's history, it's very structure... yet, she has the biggest joker grin, smiles through her words, and laughs as if she's recounting the joyous details of her wedding day. The cognitive dissonance on display strongly indicates dishonesty. I don't trust a word that comes out of her mouth
@@FlarryFlats nor should you.
I will include her in my prayers
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣why? because you disagree with her views?
@@geoffreypalmer2661no, because she is apostate. May she repent and turn to God again
She sounds like a person who doesn't want to accept responsibility for her actions, just blame others.
given at the 2018 Women’s Session of General Conference, Nelson said:
"With all my heart, I plead with you to let virtue garnish your thoughts unceasingly; then shall your confidence wax strong in the presence of God. If our women lose their virtue, it will be the cause of our undoing."
There is nothing virtuous about polygamy
Maybe she needs to start her own church that will meet her approval
She's not interested in starting a Church. She wants us to follow Joseph Smith.
Michelle, you really need to interview the hundreds or even thousands of disciples of Jesus Christ who have seen and heard him in the temples.
If she does she will mostly follow ani-mormons and say they where decided or hallucinating.
The only way those interviews would help here come back if she humbles herself and turns again to Lord Jesus Christ
@@alexmunro2640 I think you are very correct.
Or even millions
It depends how detailed the descriptions are. I see lots of things for a split second. To me that's not really seeing somthing.
She's talked about how she's had spiritual experiences in the temples. I'm seeing a lot of false characterization in this comment section.
If you're interested in interviews from people who've been through the temples, I'd recommend the Clairity podcast.
The underlying assertion of pretty much all of these break-off groups is that the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ failed. If that were truly the case, then we are simply living in a continued apostasy and still waiting for a successful restoration to occur. That doesn't sound right to me at all. Sure, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn't a perfect organization. We live in a fallen world where any organization, including the Lord's church, is made up of men and women who aren't always true to God's will. That being said, the gospel the church teaches and the ordinances it administers ARE true. If this church is not the "marvelous work and wonder" prophesied to fill the whole earth before the Lord's second coming, then I don't know what else fits that description. Certainly not any of these wandering break-off groups... Hold fast to the iron rod and don't be deceived by the precepts of men (and women like this.) Time is getting short, so the adversary is working overtime with his mists of darkness and great and spacious buildings.
who is the enemy that the lord warned about in the parable of the redemption of zion? (D&C 101:51)
@@Kait272where does Jacob 5 say that there would be another apostasy after Joseph Smith?
@@HawkeyeVoid its in D&C 101
parable of the redemption of zion
3:30 they literally left the established United States after the martyrdom of Joseph and went out west to practice their beliefs in peace...she's trying to imply that the reason they began to be more open with it is that joseph died, as if the mass migration of saints out of the east just never happened.
You do realize they didn't leave Nauvoo for three years after Joseph's death, right?
Oh boy. Just dug yourself a hole. They stayed in Nauvoo and started more openly practicing polygamy and having children with their wives after Joseph died. Fact. Then Brigham took some of the church to Utah to escape the law so he could marry teenagers in peace and be a king, which meant, by the way, leaving the areas where God told them to establish Zion!
Jacob, it's easy to look good when you highlight the side issues people bring up or debate people like Jabob Isbelle. I don't think questioning temple worship is the main message of michelle stone. I think she has honest questions that are widely ignored about the practice of plural marriage which merit closer examination.
The only problem I have with church history is not learning more about it. I get really irritated when people tell me to stop asking questions or say I am unfaithful for asking questions. That's probably how she feels.
This video is a bit of a strawman.
These "issues" have all been addressed for decades. There's no question or debate. They are only an issue for some malcontents in the Church who can't emotionally handle the issue. And they act like some ditzy lady on UA-cam has somehow cracked the code of plural marriage and the history thereof. It's ridiculous.
@@jaredshipp9207 You should consider looking at primary sources that have recently become available. They paint a different story than the one you are telling.
She is so proud of herself, the way she carries on her conversations with these people.
I'm one of them and so grateful for her. I'm most grateful for the spirit that has testified of truth. Polygamy is not if God...that's all we need to know.
@@MommaCrissa Polygamy is not of God, but plural marriage under God's direction is.
@@stephtimms1776sincere question what is the difference between polygamy and plural marriage under God’s command ?
@@kristinrichmond8185 Polygamy is doing it man's way and under man's direction and for the glory of man. Plural marriage is doing it under God's direction and seeking his will and glory in doing it the way Abraham and Israel did.
@@kristinrichmond8185 David did it for his own glory, and it lead him to have Uraiah killed.
I have heard her say that Lots wife came to her and asked her to tell her true story. That she is here to redeem Emma’s name and that she carries the DNA of the women who suffered under polygamy and she needs to redeem them. I feel so bad for her.
🤦🏼♀️
That's so spooky (Lot's wife)!
WTF!? That's some Korihor level villainy.
🤯
Is this real?
I am nearly at the point that anybody that offers Michelle Stone any kind of platform is an immediate unsubscribe for me. I’m done with her.
I seem to remember a certain famous disciple asking Jesus if they shouldn't just sell expensive ointment and give the money to the poor instead of using it for holier purposes. Sounds very very similar if you ask me. Sooner or later humans will learn not to question God. Some painful learning might take place first.
Yes, they are all just modern-day Judas Iscariots.
Saying that the Prophet will never lead the church astray means that he is perfect which is not true.
That's not a reasonable statement at all.
No, you can very well be imperfect and still never lead the church astray.
I find it relatively unlikely that the lord would call a prophet who he knows is going to obliterate and damn His church.
@@Bl3ndrz ya the scriptures are chock-full of prophets making mistakes and doing things wrong. It doesn't say that prophets wont make wrong decisions. This is proven by Joseph Smith's banking fiasco, among many other failings listed in D&C. What will be maintained is that the purpose of the church, to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man, will be maintained. It is up to us to go to God and follow the Spirit when learning from the prophets, but the final message should be at least somewhat consistent among the teachings of the church and scriptures. This case is Michelle basically saying that the vast majority of millions of members spiritual confirmations over the last 200 years are all wrong and her confirmation alone is true.
@@Bl3ndrz Particularly since there are 14 other men he would have to convince as well. SO many of these quiet apostate folks have created false dichotomies just like this - if the prophet can't lead the church astray that's saying he must be perfect is completely poor reasoning. There is such a range of variation. It's also a denial of prophecy in general. Another example is the wholy polygamy argument - JS couldn't have practiced polygamy or he'd be a fithy pedo (as was mentioned here elsewhere). It's operating from completely ignorant pretenses.
Michelle's faith journey would be a really good example of the wrestle many have with the Lord, trying to make sense of church history and its troubling facets. If you have watched her recent videos she actually bears testimony of the beautiful sacredness of the temple and her desire to attend and be there. This video is somewhat a misrepresentation of her understanding of the temple, best have an interview with her instead of slamming her in a one sided video. How many people experience what she is going through? Its comforting to them that they are not alone in their studies and can still remain in the Church while they struggle. I appreciate her courage to continue in the church as she wrestles with historical facts. While I don't always agree with everything she has said she brings a valuable debate to the table that needs to be seen. If anything it will solidify church history in anchored truth instead of continued hearsay, shelving and brushing under the rug.
There's a huge difference between not understanding something, wondering about it and asking questions, and deciding/declaring that prophets were criminal and sinful conspirators who have led the Church to apostacy. Not understanding or knowing is not a problem, but casting your lot on a side in opposition is. It's even more telling when it went beyond polygamy and LGBTQetc policy, and became platforming every aspostate who is online. She is not seeking answers, she is seeking validation and allies.
With her actions and comments, she has set herself up as an authority and is seeking to change the Lord's church to fit her philosophies.
I don't think she is evil at all, but is misled, and leading others with her. I am sad for her, and compassionate for her situation, but she is following a well known path that onlt leads to apostasy and eventual seperation from the Church.
I have had a few family members go through a similar situation, but were lucky enough to get good council and correct themselves before it got that far. Neither had negative intentions - quite the opposite. But were so desperate for spiritual experience that they set themselves up.
We know the path. It was taught in the BoM, and has been taught from the pulpit since the early days the the Church. But the tools to go down that road are so alluring today.
@@RichardChappell1 I respectfully disagree. There is an elephant in the room and she is willing to address this problem with a critical eye always willing to be corrected and criticized in her findings. There are far more people who leave the church because of polygamy than the idea that Joseph didn't do it. People need answers and Michelle simply wants to have a conversation about her findings. People who make hit pieces like this cower in the corner and refuse to actually have these conversations because it is easier to have a conversation by yourself than actually engaging with someone else in debate. Now if you feel you have answers I would suggest that you address them with her and have that conversation. Michelle is supper willing to talk to people, I myself have spoken with her and she is very easy to contact. There is a growing need to address this issue because either we address it or more people will fall away from the church believing that Joseph Smith was some narcissistic pedo. I think hit pieces like these are more damaging. Let's have this conversation, lets actually address these points of history instead of explaining them away.
@@LauraWalker-vj6qm You say so. I have yet to see her accept correction, criticism or even disagreement. She will break into tears and insist you are attacking her - even when it's just mere disagreement. As to you statistic, that's just made up. We both know that. It's nothing more than something you think is happening.
You say that people need answers. What answeres do they need? One that meets their bias and modern-based cultural sensibilities? Does actual truth matter? Bucaus if we're going to be truthful, no one is going to get a real answer. We don't have clear information and lots of conflicting "research" and claims. The best you're going to get is to pick one - which will have no more validity than any other. Sorry. That's the reality. We don't learn more about history as time passes. We just get further from the sources and lose the context. So if you want a true answer, you are out of luck. The problem I have with Michelle is that she does not want to have a conversation. She is not presenting all the evidence and discussing it - she is making very specific claims and accusations of curruption and fraud. And her recent following whatever programming the Mormon Stories podcast has, with bringing in people to voice complaints without the alternate positions or challenge to claims is not conversation. She's actively trying to build apostacy. She's not looking for a conversation. She's looking for followers.
No one is challenging her having questions. It's purely about the methodology and how she does it.
You comment about this piece is just ignorant or dishonest. Jacob has had the conversations with Michelle. It's lot at all that he's hidden in the corner and refused to have a conversation with her. She specifically refuses to have a conversation with anyone where she can't control the discussion. She has said many times that she refuses to debate anyone.
I have in fact had conversations with her. She's basically made the suggestion that any disagreement I have had with her is ignorant and I'm reading it wrong. If you are interested in making negative claims about any of the prophets or Church policies, she is glad to talk to you and support your position.
You've already created a false dichotomy in your mind. You have made the claim that it's either one way, or was some narcissistic pedo. The fact that you've made that dichotomy shows where you're at in the discussion. Of course, then you've minimized the years of history writing as just "explaining it away."
I notice the concept missing in your response - that is any mention of the Spirit or witness. THis is just another version of bashing where you get your scriptures out and chalenge each other with random quests to refute the other.
When narcissism gets a platform. 😢
I don't think she's a narcissist. I really don't. Now my mother-in-law? That's a different story lol.
@@TheRealHawkeyeI think he meant Jacob, the one who calls Joseph a liar and whoremonger
THANK YOU for tackling this!! This video just scratches the surface of the false doctrine she peddles.
Michelle asks compelling questions . She is not peddling false doctrines. I don’t agree with some things, but on the polygamy question her scholarship is unmatched. And the scriptures are on her side.
@BridgeBuilder-x4c she just twists historical records, there is no scholarship on her side. And apart from the historical malpractice, she's petty and immature. The scriptures are absolutely not on her side. Scripture supports plural marriage. They support exactly what our doctrine is, which is that polygamy can be commanded (and has been) by God, but otherwise we should be living monogamy.
@@PeppermintZeal I have spent considerable time this year on the scriptures and verifying arguments and documents on both sides of the issue. I had started out trying to help a family member with their testimony, and found the scriptures to be on Michelle's side as well as the historical documents pertaining to Joseph Smith and the "principle and doctrine" of "many wives and concubines" as it is called in D&C 132:1.
There is NO loophole in Jacob chapters 2-3 for "many wives and concubines." I have read the Church manuals as well and they cherrypick a few verses and wrest the scriptures. No one dare question 132 even though it is filled with doctrinal statements counter to scripture.
Jacob 2:30 is NOT saying what the Church is pretending it says. Ask a high school English teacher. Here is what helped me. I highlighted all the sins in one color and all the commandments in another. I wondered what "THESE THINGS" was referring to. So, I colored in red font and capital letters "THESE THINGS" and "SUCH THINGS." In every case, "THESE THINGS" and "SUCH THINGS" are referring to the SINS.
What the Lord is saying in Jacob 2:30, is that to raise up a righteous seed unto Him, he must give us commandments, otherwise we would HEARKEN to SIN. Then he goes on to explain what harm that would cause.
How the Church is interpreting that verse, as you continue reading they are saying it is MONOGAMY that causes the harm!
D&C 132 was introduced by Brigham Young in 1852 8 years AFTER the martyrdom. You can read about it in that General Conference Issue--September Special Deseret News Issue.
Everyone should read Orson Pratt and Brigham Young's talks and they would no for sure, polygamy is NOT OF GOD.
The church has had many incorrect teachings throughout its history, and no member should wait around for a leader of the church to correct those teachings. That is trusting in the arm of flesh, and it is abominable before God. God warned us that there would be abominations taught and practice right before his very face in his own house. If we are ignorant to those things, then we will stumble just like the ancient Israelites. If we claim innocence and purity in our temple worship, then we are just as the Jews of old. It's time for this wayward generation to wake up. Likeen the words of Isaiah and Jeremiah to yourselves for your spiritual profit and learning.
Basically all of D&C disproves your claim. We don’t claim prophetic infallibility, but we do respect the authority of those who are called to lead His church. God will determine how well they govern, it is not your place to usurp that authority, God expressly condemns such an attitude. It is much more likely you are trusting in the arm of flesh when you reject the prophets and go your own way…not to mention that’s an obvious social fad to do nowadays.
Read D&C 28:6-7, 112:15, 124:84, 128:9-10, 124:92-93, Hel 10:5,7, Lev 27:12, Mosiah 8:16,
Especially go over D&C 107:78-84.
There’s also Acts 1:23-26, D&C 70:3-4, 72:3, 107:99-100, 43:2-5, 104:52-53, 114:2, 90:36-37
@@HawkeyeVoid I'd rather not play the game of scripture barrage. I could fire back many many scriptures to show you within and without of the D&C, but you wouldn't believe them because you would say they are about something or someone else.
Why is it that you say you don't claim prophetic infallibility, yet when I or someone make a claim that the prophet is wrong on something or has misstepped and should repent, there is immediate justification and dismissal of the claim with an appeal to authority allowing one man to maintain power and influence over them simply by virtue of the priesthood (D&C 121)? If you put the respect for authority into context of God's word, you would see that having respect doesn't mean complete and utter subjection to one man hanging on every word he speaks. Respect and sustain is always accompanied with accountability and repentance. At an institutional level, there is no accountability nor repentance towards the membership from my perspective. The apostles have become the head to direct the body, but the head of the body of Christ is not any mortal man. Don't you think it is lazy to give all of the responsibility to God allowing men to walk all over the church with no accountability? What is God going to do? Do you know what the scriptures say? I know the D&C has a parable that mentions what God will do to the church and its watchmen as well as the temple, but it's not just God doing it...people are involved too. It's not going to be pretty or fun, but when it is all said and done, it will be glorious.
I'm not seeking my own way, and that is an arrogant and ignorant claim to make about the few who are truly seeking God by going out into the spiritual wilderness. If you sought to understand, you wouldn't be so judgmental. If you think that I am judgmental, then you might not be as familiar with the voice of God in scripture as you thought.
You realize that every time you say she “implies” or “claims” something she is reading directly from an original church history document or canonized scripture right? …and your last statement really missed the mark, you’re worried about people staying close to the “covenant path,” Michelle is worried about people staying close to God.
very well said. Michelle actually does the leg work, pours over the source material and provides it as evidence for her claims. I havent seen the same rigor from the other side.
Yes. This! It's about a relationship with Jesus! Not the covenant path.
The pride is coming through strong….
OK, so I’m only 3 1/2 minutes into this, and I don’t know where you’re going with this, but I have a legitimate question. Hasn’t the church reversed or undone every single thing Brigham Young instituted? Haven’t we pretty much rejected all of his doctrine and teachings that he brought into the church at this point? I really thought that I had heard that somewhere like that on Ward Radio maybe?
No….keep listening
@@6barbers so I did listen and it was not addressed. I know that the Essays (in the actual church handbook) reject BY’s teachings and I know I have learned in other places that the church has pretty much undone everything BY did.
@@angelamadsen416 BY teachings or “theories “. He did speculate and they were called theories.
We have universities named after him.
If your own faith, trust the enemies of the church who demean BY or not. I have not heard any prophet demean BY. I will trust them over internet church haters.
@@6barbersI think you should read the essays. Our church very clearly rejects what he taught… ESPECIALLY about blacks and the priesthood. And it doesn’t come from internet haters. You can read them in the actual handbook on the church app.
@@angelamadsen416 his theory on why the priesthood ban was wrong
But you said “everything BY taught has been discredited”.
Nelson was wrong about the vaccine being safe and effective….
They make some guesses sometimes - they are not deity.
The Brigham was bad narrative leads you to be like ms Stone and many other apostates.
Your path, your family …. Your faith. Best wishes
This video takes a personal attack to a new level.
Michelle is seeing the problems with the doctrine, and true to mormon form; You are villanizing her.
Agree!
She's so far from "Critical thinking." Her take on Brigham Young and Polygamy is rooted in falsehoods and apostasy. Many in our era have apostate views and are trying to mingle the philosophies of men with scripture. If you choose to go against the Prophets and Apostles you do so at your own risk.
We know they aren't perfect and make mistakes but to embrace polygamy if it were an abomination like Stone says is more than some minor mistake. That would be full-blown apostasy and an end to our priesthood authority. It was NOT a mistake and it is not optional for us to pick and choose which gospel principles we want to follow or reject.
Correction: ALL MORMONS are so far from "Critical thinking". You are now been corrected. You are welcome!!
Only someone who hasn’t watched her videos would make such an ignorant statement.
Any examples? Or just a "You're stupid" remark?
@@rowleskids ua-cam.com/video/aiM96GNpHxg/v-deo.htmlsi=hZShavcfvrANB0vy
@@tgaty5378 ua-cam.com/video/aiM96GNpHxg/v-deo.htmlsi=hZShavcfvrANB0vy
It's so cringe to watch these people talk! They are so deceived and have dark, empty, negative vibes. If you don't like the church, MOVE ON. Do NOT try to paint something beautiful into something evil, IF you don't want to become evil yourself.
I suggest you watch Michelle’s videos. She promotes faith, she doesn’t destroy faith. Ignorant people willing to lynch someone whose work they do not know threaten the health of the Church,
@@tgaty5378 I can imagine it would be hard if I knew her, but I don't. What I do know is alters are the same thing essentially as temples, and her questioning why do we need temples is way off... associating them with a lower law (related to kings)... Also thinking and speaking like she knows more than the prophet about these accepted core doctrines is equally off.
Amen
Nothing good can possibly come by saying the whole foundation of the church is flawed.. and that the brethren should repent.. WOW! how can anyone support her? What church do we have left if you remove this fundamentals?
@@tgaty5378 I have watched her.. she says the very foundation of the church is wrong.. What is left if its based on sinful apostles and prophets?
I’m not sure what your goal was Jacob in making this video but as you read through the comments that your subscribers have made I hope you are satisfied with whatever it was you set out to do.
It saddens me to read the distain and judgement coming from most of the comments. Especially from so many who have never seen or heard of Michelle. They are taking your carefully crafted 30 minute presentation and condemning her. Does it make you feel vindicated as you read every stone that is being thrown at her?
The more that my eyes are opening up to the truth of our history the more I am realizing that we have been lied to in so many ways. It’s been a very painful realization. But the beauty of awakening to our deceitful past has actually been a blessing because it has led me on a journey to growing closer to my Savior. The hard part though is seeing so many here who profess to be His followers from His only true church hurling stones of such ugly words at Michelle. It’s as if they don’t know Jesus’s part of the story. Or if they do then they have missed the most important point of His message.
The more that I take a step back and look at our church from a wider angle the more that I am seeing that for a church who professes to be Christ’s we sure do create some of the most self-righteous, judgmental, and cruel people. He must grieve often because I don’t believe that is His goal.
But whatever your goal was Jacob I hope you feel you have achieved it. If it was to be on the Lord’s errand I would read through your comments section if I were you to see if you can hear the message of “well done thou good and faithful servant” from Him there.
Well said, sister!
Exactly. By their fruits. Men applauding Brigham Young for his abusive views toward women. God and JS ALWAYS condemned polygamy. No one can change those facts, all they can do is face them or call the sky red.
That girl has gone psycho. What happened to her? I enjoyed her lecture on "celestial homeschool," in which she quotes and supports the teachings of latter-day prophets (including Brigham Young). But lately? What in the even heck! Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Hey Jacob, you’ve done these little “exposés” on women having positive impacts on members by challenging the narrative, like Julie Hanks and now Michelle Stone. I wonder why you don’t also attack and expose the men challenging the narrative and actions of the church as well like Nemo the Mormon, Connor Boyack, or Rob Fotheringham? Do you feel more powerful attacking women of influence?
Maybe because stone has 100k subs and the boyak has 6k? Everyone knows nemo like Dan mccellan aren't believing members but trying to influence change from the inside. Even my exmo roommate who likes them acknowledges that they are clearly atheists (nemo/dan). This feels like what about ism since a cursory glance shows you are/were probably in Michelle's camp but you've already left.
@@carsonhawkes not whataboutism, I already posted another comment addressing the topic of the video. This comment is specifically questioning why he targets outspoken women, Julie Hanks only has 7K subs too, yet he attacked her. I was already leaving the church when I found Michelle’s channel, I left because of the plethora of other false doctrines taught not only polygamy. Michelle is actually devout to the church and encourages people to stay in it.
@Karli_searches_and_prays no Julie has 103k on Instagram where her main social outreach is. So it's not some hidden misogyny it's going after people with large influence who are teaching against the doctrines of the church and devaluong their covenants.
She said that King David built a temple when it was Solomon his son that did that.
I believe she specifies that in the video, but when you take clips out of context that is what happens.
Sounds like she's on her way out...😢
She’s been for awhile.
She's not long for her membership in the Lord's church.
The problem is, she's taking so many people with her
@@grammymo sign of the last days even the elect shall be deceived
@@grammymo well, unfortunately, those leaving aren’t doing their homework
Far to much studying of imperfect people in the leadership of the church, and far to little studying of the scriptures. I don’t understand a lot of things that past leaders have done, especially Brigham Young, however to believe that they are corrupt and lost is to say the church as a whole can no longer be true. If it isn't, in the words of Tad R. Callister, where will you turn to find Prophets and Apostles,continuing revelation, priesthood authority, temples, additional scripture, power to seal families together, the correct nature of the Godhead, work for the dead, the plan of happiness in it's fullness, eternal marriage and on and on and on. There is only one church where all these perfectly pure gospel doctrines are found. If we don't have it right then the gospel is not on the earth. She needs to humble herself before it is to late.
The first half of Michelle's podcast was dedicated to talking about the scriptures. You're making statements rooted in ignorance.
Hmm, y'know what else you don't have the gospel if you're missing?
"I bear my solemn testimony that plural marriage is as true as any principle that has been revealed from the heavens. I bear my testimony that it is a necessity, and that the Church of Christ in its fullness never existed without it. Where you have the eternity of marriage you are bound to have plural marriage; bound to; and it is one of the marks of the Church of Jesus Christ in its sealing ordinances."
- George Teasdale
Make sure to include plural marriage in your next list :D
Jesus himself actually defined the gospel in the Book of Mormon (which contains the fulness of the gospel) and it doesn't include prophets, apostles, continuing revelation, priesthood authority, temples, additional scripture, power to seal families together, etc. It's actually pretty simple. It's in 3rd Nephi 27. I really wish we as a people actually believed in the Book of Mormon.
I disagree with Michelle's claim that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy.
But I firmly agree with her that polygamy was never commanded of God.
The biggest reason why the Church split into pieces was because of fornication.
Had Joseph not confused turbulent emotions for revelation and harkened to Jacob 2:23-29 (which was written for our day!), things would have been different.
But it was not just Joseph that fell into the trap of polygamy. Other church leaders had no trouble competing against each other for wives. Stealing (and sealing) people's wives.
The Saints were supposed to inherit the center of the country with fertile lands.
Instead, because of wickedness, they were smitten and fulfilled Jeremiah 17:6.
William Clayton's "Come, come ye Saints" fulfilled 2 Nephi 28:25.
Many have rationalized Jacob 2:30 as being a loophole for polygamy. But "these things" referred, not to Jacob's discourse, but to wickedness throughout the chapter. Especially the whoredom of polygamy.
The Church has still not sought forgiveness for falling into this abomination. Which has stunted the Church's growth ever since it was publicly proclaimed in 1852.
Between 1852, when polygamy was proclaimed, and 1853, church convert baptisms fell 90% and stayed that way for the rest of the decade and never recovered from previous highs.
It would not surprise me if the Church had 50 million converts now had it not been for this grievous error.
I could write much more here.
I am fully convinced the Church is true. And will stay that way for life. But it's time we recognize that as a church we are not ready for the sealed plates yet. One way to get closer to being ready is to recognize the injustice that Emma Smith faced when Joseph Smith wrote the abusive verses in 132:51-66, which need to be immediately removed from 132.
It was not Emma that was destroyed. It was Joseph. Who the Lord soon removed from his position.
I think God forgave Joseph for this as Emma saw a vision of Jesus before her death.
And I think Joseph was under a mountain of stress when pushing for this infidelity from his marriage.
But we as members need to see this displayed Joseph's fallen humanity and why we must only worship Christ.
The emphasis on the Savior's name in the Church is an example how little by little the Church keeps progressing.
And may the next step of progression be 132 D&C only retaining verses 4 to 33.
And the rest be decanonized as being no longer applicable (and highly questionable!)
Thoughtful Faith: I would really like to hear from you on a particular topic. I'm going to make a claim that feels to me like it has merit... perhaps you can provide a reasonable response. There is only ONE temple. The temple of the body. The temple that we enter into in silence, with our eyes closed, where we commune directly with God. All other temples, the temples of the outside world, are images of the ONE true temple. They are not necessary, and can be quite a stumbling block if they distract us from the ONE true temple where God dwells.
She’s needs a membership council if she hasn’t had one already to help her if she’s willing to at least listen and to review the consequences of what she’s doing.
The thing these people forget is that if 132 doesn’t count then 138 doesn’t either
She's checking out.
Or 135 or 136.
It's clear to see the fruits of the RLDS
We've had this argument before 😢
you want her disciplined because she defends the words of Joseph Smith over Brigham Young?
Truth be told, either Brigham was lying or Joseph was lying, but they both cant be telling the truth. For Michelle, she believes Joseph, and I can respect her for that.
@americathebeautiful9613 what Michelle is saying borders on apostasy. I've been in leadership positions and witnessed what goes on. If she doesn't change her ways she won't be a member for long.
@@americathebeautiful9613 Joseph and Brigham are both prophets so talking down one or the other is sinful. God didn't call you to do that. I know its popular these days to throw Brigham under the bus but how did that work for the Community of Christ?
Thank you so much! Though I’ve only viewed a few of Michelle’s podcasts they have caused me a lot of heartburn. What she says kinda makes sense sometimes, but it has never felt comfortable to my spirit. What you say on the other hand feels good to my heart.
It is sad to realize how much dogma has crept into our teachings. There is a bit of grieving over that. But there is also this amazing liberation and joy when you study out the actual scriptures and realize how beautiful they are, how plain and simple.
The Lords law of marriage is pure and tender and sweet. We are so busy defending or not offending d&c 132 ‘principle and doctrine’ of ‘many wives and concubines” we miss the beauty and opportunity to appreciate and celebrate the tenderness and openness of monogamy.
Imagine coming home from faithfully serving a mission and find out your mom is doing this. Brian Hales tried to warn her as well but she wasn't listening. This was tactfully made. Please keep it up.
I have just discovered your channel and are listening with great interest to your presentations. However, this video has left me puzzled. You included a lot of sister Stone's false ideas, which is of course useful, rephrasing her arguments and briefly explaining her apostate focus but without teaching us on how to debunk her arguments . I am not sure to understand the goal of the video. Where are the aplogetic tools we need ?
Your viewers need to know she is reading directly from scriptures and taking her information from journals.
Selectively so.
Actually, the reason why so many of her videos are 2+ hours long is because she takes the time to cover Every.Single. argument and counter-argument to her claims, whether it's on the topic of pre-Nauvoo polygamy, or the land deeds, or the Nauvoo Expositor, etc. She leaves literally no stone unturned.
@@HistoricalMonogamyDoctrine By subjectively and selectively redefining the polygamy experience to fit her puritanical views on sex and marriage, it may seem as though she is uncovering hidden truths. In reality, she is engaging in a sophisticated shell game. She assigns emotional bias to words, experiences, and events, interpreting them through a lens shared by her followers. This shared bias creates an appearance of truth-telling, but the foundation of her claims collapses like a house of cards when compared to the promises made to the House of Israel and the revelations given to Joseph Smith. You are actively being drawn into a con.
Honestly, this video was a bit disappointing for me. You may all feel great bashing on this woman, but I noticed that Jacob took clips from her interviews, where she was expressing her confusion in navigating the LDS church and the leadership....which is a very emotionally charged topic for anyone in the church wrestling with the actual history of the church. I would much prefer to see you take on some of the information she's unearthed through hours of research. For example, we now have solid evidence that 1) Brigham Young "revised" church history and conveniently changed Joseph's personal journals, forcefully and unequivically condemning polygamy in every form, to say the exact opposite. 2) There are zero contemporary sealing documents with Joseph to other women, no gifts or letters from Joseph to any other spouses than Emma, and no children born to the 40+ supposed poly wives. 3) Michelle has established that many of the claims from the poly "wives" of Joseph just don't match the historical record and are often not even physically possible. For example, some woman claim that they were sealed to Joseph in buildings that weren't even built at the time, or with a bit of digging, find that that woman or Joseph weren't even in the same state at the claimed date! All of these claims come long after Joseph's death by woman who are actively practicing polygamy and who are trying to justify the practice for legal reasons (Temple Lot case). 4) At least one woman was apparently sealed to Joseph before he even received the supposed revelation ! (Fanny Alger I believe) 5) When we look at Joseph's bible translation edits, we find that he reaffirms the abomination of David's many wives and concubines and that the original marriage section in the D&C teaches monogamy and stood as the church's official stance even at Joseph's death. 6) Section 132 has undergone linguistic analysis and clearly does not match Joseph's other revelation styles....and it was brought forth long after his death by BY when trying to convince the saints of the new doctrine of polygamy 7) Brigham Young received the "revelation" long before Joseph while serving in England and was committing adultery with a married woman, whom he later married. (Yikes) 8) Hyrum also condemned and preached against the abomination up until his death. One of his sermons was removed from the Joseph Smith Papers project, even though it was originally accessible. 9) Emma and Joseph's children always proclaimed Joseph's innocence! 10) There are 15+ public and private denouncements of polygamy by Joseph, some just before his death. He is even on record as trying to find and excommunicate those who preached or practiced it and encouraged the Relief Society members to put down Any man who approached them to enter into this practice. 11) Conveniently, after Joseph was murdered, polygamy exploded! Hmmm. I am an active member of the LDS church who has dared to look into much of this evidence and I can tell you that it is HARD. I love so many things about the LDS church, but have now come to know that something went off the rails early on. God never commanded polygamy! Joseph was innocent. If you did a video on the thoughts I've grappled with since coming to this realization, you would come up with a worse clip for me! I am emotional. I feel so very betrayed. I don't know how to navigate my relationship with the LDS church. I go, but feel numb and angry so much of the time. Sometimes, I wish that I didn't know what I now know, but here I am. When I pray about how to go forward, I feel the prompting to just do my best and wait upon the Lord to continue to fully "cleanse his church" and rejoice in the coming day when we can have greater light and knowledge because the false traditions and darkness have been rooted out. I think that Jacob is a good guy, but this video doesn't address the very real challenge that many members are wrestling with. It goes after our fears of listening to someone "who should be excommunicated" instead of addressing the very important information Michelle has brought to the forefront.
It sounds like YOU would like YOUR moment of fame. I told my apostate brother as we were having an amicable discussion that he can find and add up his “evidences” to support his claims and on my side of the fence I can find and add up evidences supporting my claims. So it really boils down to: Do you WANT to believe? Either side has to face this question. I CHOOSE to believe in this church and know that all questions will one day be answered clearly. I CHOOSE to “err”, if it is such, on the side of believing and faith. It sure won’t hurt me if I’m wrong. Heaven forbid if I should live a clean, moral, unfettered life.
This is an excellent and thorough comment!
Well said, thanks for sharing. Church history actually starts to line up and make sense why things went the way they did once polygamy is taken off Joseph and placed on Brigham. I don’t blame Emma for not following everyone west when she knew what was being pushed with polygamy was not taught by her husband. Went to her grave defending that as well.
@@lipstillmondI’m not sure what you meant by “YOU would like your moment of fame”? Honestly, all of my life I’ve tried to hide from scrutiny and despise attention of any sort. As far as choosing to believe, I chose to believe that the Gospel which Christ taught is beautiful and perfect. I value it more now than ever. My desire is to continue to submit to the process of being cleansed of all false traditions and beliefs, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me feel. My testimony is much simpler now as is my focus to seek God’s mind and will and courageously do things that I feel are from Him….even if it means making a post like this:-)
@@leannerickords7380Thank you. I rarely comment, but was awakened early in the morning with a clear impression to say something. Maybe someone will be blessed by it!
Does anybody know the supposed general conference talk where they quoted Sherem the Anti-Christ? I've heard this claim only once before.
Yeah, notice they don't specify. Because they are lying.
Jacob, I listen to you and her channel. I respect you both and what both of you are doing. I have found that the argument about JSJr being the polygamy scapegoat to be very credible but this is something that each person needs to explore for themselves. That's not to say that you need to believe Brigham and other church leaders had JSJr killed, it just means polygamy is not of God and JSJr taught against it. Hemlock Knots is a YT channel that provides a lot of historical documentation to help in your exploration. If anyone is open and seeks the truth but you have not explored this topic yet, I would suggest Gwendolyn Wyne's video "Our Best Story | Polygamy: An Enemy Has Done This" as a starting point.
Once you begin to pull at the threads you realize the history of the church and the quotes of the early church leaders are all heavily revised by Brigham Young and other apostles who took leadership after JSJr was killed. The quote that Pres Nelson gave around 8:30 is a "recollection" of Brigham Young's that he attributes to JSJr. For anyone who explores the polygamy history and his leadership as the Pres of the Church will find that Brigham Young is shown time and again to fabricate memories that only he and JSJr had together that really best serve Brigham Young. If you learn about the history of the temples while Brigham Young was Pres and what the endowment included, you would be shocked.
Temples are important but because they are so important we need to make sure what we are doing in there actually matters so that we can worship in spirit and truth and not error.
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't accuse Brigham of the things you did above and then turn around and claim the priesthood keys somehow made their way down to the present. Moreover, your post shows your real issue - plural marriage itself. That's really the issue for all of you. Your emotional inability to handle it. Not who did or did not practice it. Otherwise, even if we were to assume Joseph didn't practice it - or practiced it differently - that is no reason to believe Brigham and other succeeding prophets were wrong. But that's your automatic conclusion. Talk about shaky ground. No wonder so many who go down this revisionist road apostatize.
@@jaredshipp9207 I don't think I'm doing anything of the sort (talking out both sides of my mouth). I didn't mention anything about priesthood keys, etc. You were right about one thing, I do have a problem with polygamy because I don't think it's godly and I've looked into this issue a lot and also early church history and can see the clear origins of it. JSJr and Hyrum clearly and publicly taught against polygamy and only promoted monogamy - read their own words and not anything that was attributed to them after their deaths. Don't be angry at me for holding an opinion, search for the truth, pray and study for yourself and if you are right, you can be at peace.
@@jaredshipp9207 emotional inability to handle it?! Wow. . .
@@jaredshipp9207 Brother JaredShipp, How weird that you so quickly scorn and label others "emotionally or spiritually immature" (your preferred attack phrases, for some reason) for simply quoting the prophet Jacob (2-3) and Joseph Smith, et al, when these very prophets clearly and unequivocally condemn polygamy?
Was the prophet Jacob (2-3) being "spiritually" and "emotionally" immature when he condemned polygamy as an abomination and whoredom? If Jacob was just "more mature spiritually and emotionally" would he then join the much more spiritually mature JaredShipp in courageously embracing polygamy for himself and for his people?
If Jacob quoted himself (from chapters 2-3) on these comment boards, would you respond to him by saying: "Grow up, Jacob! Develop a little bit of spiritual and emotional maturity, dude! And then, you'll enthusiastically embrace polygamy as I do"?
Why is it so easy for me--or anyone else reading your ad hominin comments--to imagine such?
@jonterry9843 You and others who hold your view are dishonest about Jacob. He clearly makes an exception while stating the standard is monogamy. You all see it but, because you have no answer for it, just as you don't for other parts of scripture where plural marriage was commanded, you pretend it's not there.
I’m 46 seconds in and it’s clear you haven’t interacted enough with Michelle, as you misrepresent her position. She’s said many times there are parts of 132 she actually loves, and her desire would be to see the problematic parts dealt with. She’s also expressed her compassion for the church leaders (BY, JT, and WW), as being simply human, doing what they thought was right, and even being inspired to do many good and right things. I think it might be a better option for you to dig into the sources on polygamy and present what you believe to be the most fitting narrative, vs seeking to bring down the good name of someone who is doing just what I suggested you do. I don’t think she’s going about everything she does and says in the most ideal way, but I think she knows that, and neither you nor I go about what we say and do in the most ideal way either (and if we think we do, then that’s just proof that we don’t.) My motive with this comment is the golden rule- I’d want someone to step in and stand by me if I were being misrepresented.
There is no question Joseph Smith reluctantly started polygamy as he was commanded to do. You would have to be insane to believe a cadre of church leaders conspired to come up with the idea. No serious student of church history thinks otherwize.
Michelle is a faithless apostate. Don’t fall for her lies.
Bro I agree. This comment section is grilling her but there's no understanding, only name-calling. Her whole channel is about conversation. And most of this channel is conversation based too. I'm not sure she's fairly represented here.
This isn't a debate. You talk like some ditzy woman on UA-cam has somehow cracked the code of the history of plural marriage. This has all been addressed many times over for literally decades. Everyone, both in and out of the Church, knows Joseph taught and practiced it. The only ones who claim otherwise are a group of malcontent (soon to be ex) members who engage in revisionist history because they can't emotionally handle the issue.
Jacob, you publicly agreed to debate with Michelle. I think you even said you would do it in September... Instead of doing a debate like you agreed to, you are attacking her personally and publicly. This is cowardly. If you're so right and she's so wrong, let's hear a debate. You're obviously not opposed to debates. The only logical conclusion here is that you are afraid.
It is sad to see so many hateful comments from people who profess to be Christians let alone members of the church. I wonder if Jesus were to read through these comments what He’d have to say to those who are making them. Would He join in the calls to revoke her membership? Call her evil? Or do you think he just might have a thing or two to say to the people who are casting stones. I’m ashamed that members of Christ’s church treat fellow members so abysmally.
I’ve watched Michelle’s channel. She has done amazing research into the origins of polygamy in the church. I’m grateful to her and hundreds of hours of work she has put in to gather ORIGINAL documents. I’ve learned a lot from her videos. Are you going to call me apostate? Question my decision to be a member of the church? Declare I shouldn’t go the temple?
The comments, to me, are similar to a video I saw earlier today talking about people who believe that The Book of Mormon is evil but *have not read it*.
She is not a trained historian and her “research” on polygamy is reflective of this. She is presenting it through the lens that fits the narrative she wants to believe and present, not through what the historical records show. I’m not a fan of polygamy or a polygamy apologist, but if someone isn’t trained in the historical method, they should be very careful about setting themselves up as an authority in presenting historical narratives.
I don’t agree with Michelle but I’m shocked by many of these comments 🫨
I am shocked by the vitriol. I don’t 100% agree with her views but this is next-level nastiness. A lot of these clips are out of context as well.
@@jenniferwallace8161 I totally hear you. I’m wondering what’s going on…
She's went from critical thinking to anti-mormon rhetoric. She's crossed a big line. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true brothers & sisters. The Church is true.
She teaches the doctrines of men (or women) mingled with scripture.
How can she still claim to be a member of the church if she feels it’s so wrong
Because they don’t want to leave it alone , their spirit is hurting so they a drawn to go against the church
She can do more damage to testimonies inside the church than she can outside of it, so she'll remain a member as long as possible
@@joshua_tobler the lord will have his vengeance hopefully she wakes up
@@joshua_tobler Exactly!
She's explained it herself. If you care to go listen to her own words.
Thanks for sharing this, Jacob, if only for the fact that I can tell a DISTINCT difference in the spirit I feel coming from her and the Spirit I feel coming from President Nelson. Now off I go to let more of that good Spirit back in!
had the same thought.. Just got home from the Temple this afternoon. As I get older, the temple becomes less boring, and more mind blowing. To insinuate the very foundations of temple work are flawed is to undermine ALL existing and new temples.. Almost as though we should tear them down. Yikes.. my life without the temple.. cant imagine it..
The temple is our golden calf??? Has she read Margaret Barker? David Butler? John Welch? The Book of Mormon?
If she actually knew what she was talking about, she wouldn't be saying the things she is saying.
100%
@@BlackDragon007-y6z suppose somebody where to try and tell me that the church has gone astray and that miracles have ceased in the church around 2014ish and then I experience miracles in 2016ish. Would I hold what they say with any weight? No. Even so it is with the temple. I know that the ordinances are authoritative and binding and that the keys of the priesthood are lodged in the church. Is it something I learned from the apostles and prophets or a bishop? No but from God himself. Peter knew Jesus Christ was the savior and redeemer through the Holy Spirit of prophecy and revelation. By that same spirit I know the truthfulness of that which is taught in the temple. There were those of old who received things before they were prepared and could digest the meat of the doctrine.
Even so it is with Michelle Stone.
Which temples? Kirtland & Nauvoo or all the different temples built afterwards?
Because the ones Joseph built by revelation were very different.
Also everything can become an idol, even God
Not to mention that since ancient Israel had the temple mysteries as Butler rightly points out, then it was operated under the lesser priesthood of Aaron. Therefore the mysteries we have are not of the greater priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
There is fine deep nuance here. You can give it if you look. So, it's not wrong to say that the current temple worship has become idolatrous.
Jacob Hansen, this is just completely intellectually dishonest.
There are legitimate questions. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying the church has a responsibility to answer to so many things. Too many in the church believe faith is simply believing the church is true despite many people attacking it.
That isn't faith. That is hope. Hope in an institution that verifiably makes mistakes?
Why would you not agree with Michelle Stone claiming ecclesiastical abuse for not being given the temple recommend for teaching "false doctrine" in class?
You know this is dishonest Jacob. If I could be excommunicated for preaching in church that the prophets were wrong about people with black skin being given full membership, and the next week, after church clarification, be a member in good standing, proves there is ecclesiastical abuse and the church is obviously wrong about doctrines.
Yes this video proves just how deep these people rely on the arm of flesh and worship prophets, not God.
They've been answered. Many times over. People like Michelle Stone simply can't emotionally handle the answers so they engage in revisionist history. And the lazy learners and lax disciples are fooled by those like her.
@@jaredshipp9207 they havent been answered. That is simply a lie. Please explain to me why Joseph Smiths Journal was doctored to say the exact opposite about polygamy?
@americathebeautiful9613 It wasn't "doctored." Everyone, in and out of the Church, knows Joseph taught and practiced plural marriage. The only ones saying otherwise are a group of malcontent (soon to be ex) members who can't emotionally handle the issue due to spiritual immaturity.
How do I know that? Because, even if (for the sake of argument) Joseph didn't practice plural marriage, or did it differently, that doesn't mean Brigham and other successors were wrong in how they did. Yet that is precisely the conclusion you and others come to. They were prophets too. It's not really about who did or did not practice it for you. It's the issue itself because you lack understanding of the gospel and Church history. And apparently you all think this Church is just another Protestant sect where you can feign loyalty to whatever you think the origin of the faith was, and your own personal interpretation of scripture, while still calling yourself a believing Latter-day Saint.
@@jaredshipp9207 Weird. My loyalty is to my Savior. Where's yours?
I can't engage with someone who is incapable of having an honest discussion.
Spiritual Immaturity? 😂
Man, my own church is just full of some of the most self righteous, judgemental Christians around.
Disappointed in this approach, Jacob. Michelle is sincere in her belief. I disagree with her, but what you’ve done here is attack a person and cherry picked the worst. This just gaslights your own audience. This type of content is a net negative for all parties involved.
You either believe in the restored gospel built upon apostles or not.. For her, clearly not. Im certain she will take many with her before this whole thing is over. Nothing to see here.. just another apostate that thinks that by starting some channel, the brethren will sit up and repent. Either jesus himself guides this church or not.. If not, move on to another church.. Its just another scam church if so.
Jacob being Jacob
I've watched enough of her videos to know these clips paint her in a correct light. Her lack of understanding of both gospel doctrine and Church history is so glaring, she has no business opining on something like plural marriage.
She takes her personal opinions as fact and her lack of actual research is mind boggling
She's one of the most well-researched on this topic in the world. Probably over 100 times what Jacob has researched about it.
I have my issues with Michelle, but lack of research is NOT one of them. You have obviously not actually checked out any of her research. Just because you have come to a different conclusion, doesn't mean that she hasn't done research.
This is someone just jumping on the bandwagon.
Excuse me but your ignorance is showing
The whole time I was waiting for you to substantially rebuttal her claims and it never happened...
I don't even agree with her, but I am a little perplexed by what the point of this video was because intentionally or not, I think in a lot of ways it frames her point even if it wasn't true.