An Evening of Eschatology - Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism
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- Опубліковано 27 бер 2013
- Desiring God and Bethlehem College & Seminary hosted “An Evening on Eschatology” in Minneapolis n September 27, 2009. It was attended by about 800 people who sat in the darkened sanctuary while six cameras were trained on the brightly lit roundtable where the four participants sat in a circle.
For two hours I (John Piper) moderated, more or less, a discussion among Jim Hamilton (professor of New Testament at Southern Seminary in Louisville), Sam Storms (pastor of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City), and Doug Wilson (pastor of Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho).
The discussion was intended to focus on the relationship between the thousand-year reign of Christ mentioned in Revelation 20 and the return of Christ to this earth visibly and physically to reign. This thousand years is usually called “the millennium.” Revelation 20 is the only place in the Bible where the length of this period is mentioned.
“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. . . those who had not worshiped the beast . . . came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. . . . And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations” (Revelation 20:1-4, 7-8).
Concerning this thousand years (millennium), there have been three major views in the history of the church. Each of these views was represented in the discussion by an advocate who believes the view to be true.
Premillennialism (represented by Jim Hamilton): The return of Christ happens before (pre-) the thousand-year reign of Christ, which is a reign of the risen Christ on the earth.
Amillennialism (represented by Sam Storms): The return of Christ happens after the thousand-year reign, a reign that occurs in heaven, in the intermediate state, and not upon the earth. Those who have died in faith and entered into the presence of Christ share his rule and reign during the current church age in which we now live.
Postmillennialism (represented by Doug Wilson): The return of Christ happens after (post-) the thousand-year reign, which corresponds to the Christian age, and the reign of Christ from heaven leads the church to triumph by and through the gospel to such an extent that the Great Commission will be successfully fulfilled, and the Christian faith will pervade all the cultures of all the nations of men. All Christ’s enemies will be subdued in this way, with the exception of death, which he will destroy by his coming.
None of the views insists that the “thousand years” is an exact number, but all of them allow that it may be symbolic of a very long time (from a human standpoint).
As moderator, I tried to see that each view was fairly represented and defended. My own view is the one represented by Jim Hamilton - historic premillennialism. I think amillenialism is the next most plausible view. Postmillennialism has a long and respected history. In fact, the most influential dead theologian in my life, Jonathan Edwards, was a postmillennialist. Indeed, most of the early missionaries of the modern missionary movement, like William Carey, shared this view as well - the strong conviction that the gospel would triumph in all the world and subdue all other religions, with gospel power, not military power.
There are biblically attractive things about each of these views, and none of them, in their best representation, bears such marks as to suggest the advocates are undermining the precious gospel of Christ. On the contrary, each of them has strengths that specifically honor parts of the Bible that the others seem to honor less.
Postmillennialism seems to honor the power of the gospel and the promises for the Old Testament for the triumph of God’s people over all the nations. Amillennialism seems to honor the warnings of bleak end times as well as the seamlessness between Christ’s coming and the immediate destruction of death, the removal of the enemies of the cross, and the beginning of the new heavens and new earth. Premillennialism seems to honor the plainest meaning of Revelation 20 and the seemingly literal meaning of many Old Testament promises.
All of these views are upheld by teachers who warmly embrace the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of the Bible. This is especially true of the roundtable participants. We were glad to host this event with a view to showing that across these differences of interpretation (which were vigorously defended in the discussion) there is a profound brotherhood in the gospel....
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Can we get this gentleman back around a round table for this topic again…
@@DavidOrnelas good idea if you can add a few more who might fill in the blanks. John MacArthur comes to mind.
I love the fact they all debated the same truth, and all said the same thing " READ YOUR BIBLE" AMEN , yes Lord God bless 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
All jesuits false teachings , Very alarming that All of you Are/Have fallen for jesuits false teachings ! (KJV Revelation Chapter's 13&17 ) ; Revelation Is written in chiasm !
Power is addictive, & the Christian enjoys the delusion of having a deity handy for ultimate free passes & answers.
Projecting certainty of having been authorized by a deity, just feels right.
Seeing the purchase of fantasyland vocabulary is a bonus.
Any god outside of fiction is an absurdity the illiterate observes.
Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy.
Those with one foot in fantasyland authorize themselves to weigh-in on whatnot as if Earth had gravity-free zones & magic.
If there were a god, you would think he would produce something with all the computing power, instead of guys wearing hairy coats, eating bugs & dipping.
It is the religious who don't have ears to hear, being a wicked generations seeking signs.
These are the wolves in sheep's clothing: My sheep hear My voice,
Even Jesus The Nailed, says faith is worthless if you can't move mountains by voice-command.
The religious don't have ears to hear, the books of God are filled with faith & prayers:
Nothing fails like prayers in a children's hospital, the religious are only into convincing themselves.
The Religious Podium Jockey should not take himself so seriously, nobody should.
The religious have no quality-controls.
Theologians grant the titles to each other without a deity certification.
One might expect a deity to make itself known to everyone without work performed in interpretations of old literature by guys like our verbose podium jockey.
Who in their right mind promotes travel as if best done with one foot in fantasyland vocabulary?
Nothing fails like prayer in a children's hospital, and these wolves in sheep's clothing advocate prayer & faith verbiage; ignoring Jesus Christ said faith was worthless if you can't move mountains by issuing voice commands.
A house divided cannot stand.
We vote because Christians have no quality-controls, & we desire those governing not making suggestions travel is best done with one foot in someone's fantasyland.
'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.''
Let us all forget it was secular law & order ending the inquisitions & witch-killings.
Let us ignore a wicked generation seeks signs.
Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy.
The Christians slapped their books on the Old Testament, & the Mormons glued theirs on to them both, thus proving Christians lack quality-control.
A deity unable to be acknowledged by everyone is a forgery based on literature.
Think not I come with peace, but sword.
I come to divide this that and the other thing, & I give you tax exempt status.
Oppression builds character among the dominated.
Who do you think nailed the king of the Jews, when Imperial Rome controlled temples & publications?
Just for the fun of it, have their Messiah say render to Caesar?
My sheep hear my voice.
Think not I come with peace, but sword.
The literate of the age; built religions & made propaganda, devalued the currency, too.
Marvel not I say you are all gods, and so on & so on.
Faith is a fantasyland term, & the Christians hate to hear it.
If faith had any value, then you could move mountains by voice-command.
"Furthermore, whenever any person or group of persons in a position of great power, and without the full knowledge and consent of the public, uses such knowledge and methodology for economic conquest -- it must be understood that a state of domestic warfare exists between said person or group of persons and the public."
- Silent Weapons for Quite Wars
I'm glad salvation does not depend on the interpretation of the Millennium.
i know Im randomly asking but does anyone know of a method to get back into an instagram account??
I was dumb forgot the account password. I love any assistance you can offer me.
@Forrest Lyric I really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and I'm in the hacking process now.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@@arielkrew5450 did it work?
@@arielkrew5450 😅
Amen.
Agree that this debate needs to happen again in our current world.
Methinks Doug would be a tad more restrained, post 2020.
@@gerard4870I was thinking the same thing
It would definitely be interesting. 2009 is a long time ago. 2020 was a long time ago. However, in this day, we must take heed to Jesus' words which told us "let no man deceive you".
😂current?
That is called News Eschatology!
@@gerard4870doubt that
“I’m not opposed to changing my theology in mid air.” Haha I love it.
I DIDNT GET THIS TIL I HEARD IT🤣🤣🤣 see y’all up there!
Seems like Doug came to have a more open conversation and the other two came to debate and win. I enjoyed listening to Doug the most here.
Why is there always one smug person who interrupts and argues the whole way?
How about instead of accusation, since we know who the accuser is. We say praise God 4 brothers came together in a mature manner to fellowship and sharpen one another.
@@tstjohn777agreed. I liked listening to everyone here.
@AmayzinOne I get that but Doug's weakness here was that he made a lot of good points but I think sometimes he struggled to connect the dots, as good as they were.
@@nrgentertainment I agree with that. I don’t think he was ever able to make it point clearly.
It’s time for another round table with these folks. It would be a huge blessing to the body of Christ during this rapidly changing time in history
Jennifer Wayne amen!!
@Brazilian Goddess I think that refers to Israel asking God to treat the Babylonians as the Babylonians treated them.
I want to see a rountable of these guys on the abortion debate among Christians: Pro-life Incrementalism v. Abolitionist Immediatism.
Agreed!
@@SomeIsBest That would be amazing.
I never thought i'd get to this point in my life where i listen to a 2 hour debate on eschatology.
but praise the Lord that I do!!
brother this is a false gospel this is not the Bible man they don't teach the real Bible bro this is false Christianity and these guys are here will lead you to Hell brother I'm telling you right now these are wolves in sheep's clothing I promise you manthese are new age teachers they don't speak the real gospel this is New age gospel that's in the other gospel Jesus warned us about don't get into it man get out of it while you can
facebook.com/Hallelu-YAHWEHSHUA-560548060673707/
🙋♀️
Agreed. This is my 6th or 7th time.
Amen
I'm a pre-millennialist but I do love the passion Doug and the other man has. We can disagree on these things and still be brothers and sisters in Christ
You're right. It's good that amillenialists can be wrong and we can still love them. ❤
@@SquadJuicedIt's ok that pre-millenialist's can be wrong but we still love them 🙂🙏❤️
I don't see how anyone can be pre-millenial. There are so many passages where Jesus says that his return will be final. He will return like a thief in the night. Or like a bridegroom. And then He will ask the angels to gather all humanity, and seperate the wheat from the chaff. And the final judgement.
@@nerychristian bro there is so much proof I could teach it to you but it's a lot of scripture to read and study I could send it all to you but I can't do it on here because there's not enough room.
@@godswarrior45
ua-cam.com/video/X1oEmg6iqow/v-deo.htmlsi=PGDv6nHPR9-9xk5_
Completely agree with what Sam said at the end. The argued passionately for their positions and that shows their love of God’s Word and their desire to sharpen one another. Something I think we often miss is the ability to argue with brothers and sisters
I might disagree with piper on some things, but I absolutely love the man and his passion for the Bible.
Amill: ua-cam.com/video/OyEq07uMOHc/v-deo.html
Lol same!!! I'm not a Calvinist but I appreciate many of his teachings. You get the sense that the guy has an incredibly passionate yet gentle heart.
Michael Arango muml
As I watch I am annoyed that they don't let the amillenialist speak.
The interrupter says he loves the amillenialist but he won't allow him to speak.
Doug for sure takes the award for most civil and respectful! :) ...along with best humor.
To all Christians engaging in debates, the average person will not remember most of the points you made (maybe one or two), but he will remember the way in which you conducted yourself. Well done, Doug.
Civil and respectful does not
Correlate with truth. Devils can be civil and respectful
@@jofo817
Is there a specific instance you know of?
@@jofo817 HOWEVER, the LACK of peace, humility, and respect that is easily seen in Jim and somewhat Sam is a shame to the church and IMO muddies the joy of which we are called and moved to share the Gospel. There is passion in their arguments, yes, but they run over each other without deference and open ears in such a way that does not reflect the unity we have in Christ. What RyGuyStudios is saying is more than cordiality; it's a note of who conducted themselves with the greatest degree of Christ-likeness.
That's what happens when you're the one with the fun eschatology
Such an excellent point. Well written.
Sam Storm’s explanation of Revelations chapter 12 and Chapter 20 is the best explanation I ever heard. Thank you Pastor Sam. You hit a home run!!
It's the only logical explanation. Jesus himself taught us that his return would be the final event in human history. At his return he will gather the elect, and the wicked will be destroyed and tossed into the fire.
The Lord's Prayer Matthew 6:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. The Millennium Kingdom is on earth!
An updated version of this would be excellent if possible
Yeah, and I wish they would include what they left out ie Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 24:1-31…
@@joshuaharling3728 I agree. Although there's never enough time to cover everything. However Matthew 24 in particular is pretty essential
I doubt Doug Wilson would be welcome on the same stage with John Piper unfortunately.
@Boris Van Druff I'm bit out of the loop, why do you say that exactly?
@@HartyBiker if I understand correctly Piper has opened up more to progressive ideology whereas Wilson has remained more hardline.
how many people watching a2020?
The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM!
Repent and believe the gospel! Follow Jesus’ teachings!
Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21
Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
RSV
Only-monos
God-theos
Monos theos
Monotheism
The Father
Jesus is the one sent by the true God (the Father)!
Jesus never claimed to be God, Jesus said he has a God!
Jesus has a God!
Jesus died!
God can’t die!
God raised Jesus from the dead!
5th time watching, but still not elucidating. Would rather watch them arm wrestle.
a20
How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of the judgment of the living, in Matthew 25:31-46?
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.
Paul said Christ returns in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The judgment of the dead is at the end of Revelation 20.
Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing, in 2 Timothy 4:1.
The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:15-18, which proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Paul has revealed above the true timeline of Revelation chapter 20.
The "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation, because the two witnesses are bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation chapter 11.
.
@@SpotterVideo 144k jk I don;t know
I loved John Piper's prayer at the beginning. So humbling
More like a preaching
ua-cam.com/video/PvP_Hg87luI/v-deo.html
Mathew 24 truthbomb !!!
I loved it I think it is possible the millennial reign already happened. What they call mudflood and Tartaria is glorious Greco-Roman architecture worldwide and we are all lied to on the timeline. This is a time to be close to the Lord. One day at a time.
yes deep head massages
@@rebeccaringler1265 That is an interesting speculative theory, to look into. If this was the case then we are living in a time where Satan is released for a little while, which would not coincide with other factors. That said, I do believe our time has been manipulated. Due to Daniel 7:25.
I absolutely love the debate once they get to the Revelation Chapter 20 section.
It is the voices of men DESPERATELY seeking the truth. It is a beautiful sight.
This needs a part two, and Sam Storm needs more time.
Sam should speak up more.
He seems so frustrated and angered by Jim's interruptions and demeanour. Or maybe I am projecting. :) I find Jim so irritating, asking questions and then talking through the answers, quoting his choice of Scripture over top someone else's answers. Piper shuts Sam up when he interjects but lets Jim talks through anyone. Jim can't even hold still, he is so eager to interrupt every point.
The guy across from Sam was not listening, IMHO.
@@BibleSongsThis is a trademark of most premil people I've talked with. Not very patient when in a conversation.
This my experience as well.
@@andrewhodgeson8006
When this conference was taped, I was a premillenialist. When I first saw this video, I was an amillenialist. Now I'm coming back to watch it having gone full postmill. Fun to watch. :)
Actually, me too. Look at Bruce Gore’s videos if you haven’t already. Amazing.
Can you link?
I was historical premil for over 25 years. Now I’m amil. I realize post mil is close to amil, but what pushed you over?
The parable of the mustard seed, parable of the kingdom of God being like leaven, and more verses like that plus studying the fruit of each belief system through history. Missions have flourished under postmil churches. Not as much with any kind of pessimistic view. More sense of practical daily application in this world that feeds my Faith and belief.
Same here. Haha.
I think that the three positionalists represent a great deal of major christian types. enthusiastic to the point of being nerdy and rude like Jim, calculating yet misunderstood and defensive like Sam, and Confident, witty but ambiguous like Doug. I believe that they even represent the stages that Christians are processed into, a good representation of who we all are as we handle scripture. Regardless of lack, the good thing is its best to struggle with God's word than to be dead ignorant of it and be lost.
Rightly point out bro. I was just thinking the same. John sum it up very well
This is a great comment
Amen
Literally
Jim is the youngest. You do mellow with age and wisdom. Give him some time.
I moved from premill to postmill. And also we need a part 2. Please make it happen Piper 🙏
Why are you Christian? What did you do you're non Christian friends and neighbors didn't do?
Same! This debate played a part, while I was looking to hold onto premil!
@@johneldred4195 you're tripping
When does the rapture happen then?
@lindarussell1437 No such thing as rapture. Misnomer by Jerome. The word rapture could simply mean excited. But that sounds too logical and not as profitable. There will be a resurrection 1 Cor. 15, 51-53 but not this insane ideology that Christ "snatches" by force, up believers, that means he came back a 2nd time, in secret or not, and flies around 2,3,5,7 days or thousands of years with all old & new Testament saints in the air until after this insane ideology of the tribulation ends, then he and the saints, supposedly come back a 3rd time. Makes a great Christian sci-fi book. Profits must be astonishing!
What is the theology of those you get your data? More than likely, they are Arminianst Dispensationalist and Futurism
I could listen to Sam talk all day. He is so wise.
I'm learning humility with John Piper. I thought I'll learn escathology but pastor Piper is teaching me how to apply
christianism. blessing
Christianity, not Christianism my friend.
Legend has it Jim didn’t let him finish
Such an underrated comment
ua-cam.com/video/PvP_Hg87luI/v-deo.html
Mathew 24 truthbomb !!!
THANK YOU FOR THIS COMMENT
The pure joy of this conversation. Four men of faith with some differences but the essence is Jesus Who could ask for anything more. God bless you all.
I wish I had friends that cared about discussing the Bible like this!
Find them!! I have a small group of middle aged moms that discuss these topics! It's sooo challenging and refreshing!
@@rachelwelk2893 I’m looking and I belong to a good Church but most women want to discuss shallow books rather than the Bible. Particularly eschatology is considered legalistic to discuss because it might cause disunity.😒
@@Hi8862 ugh I know. I started holding my own bible studies as a way to convince women that those topical studies were not helping us grow in our love for the Lord. We've studied in depth the whole book of Genesis and half of Exodus in the last year. The last 3 studies have been Jen Wilkin's but we are hoping to do a MacArthur one next. Just thru reading the Word we are going deep into eschatology, theology and doctrine. It's just so good.
@@rachelwelk2893 so good to hear that! I’m praying I can start my own study!
I've seen this video 3 TIMES so far. It's only this 3rd time I was able to track with most with it, progress 😇
PatternSon...
-------------------
While it is true the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
begins when God takes the "Kingdom of God" (Holy Spirit)
away from the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" and
gives it to the New Testament "church"...
-----------------
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, the KINGDOM OF GOD
shall be TAKEN from you [TAKEN from the Jewish Kingdom],
and it was GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits
thereof [and then it was GIVEN to the 3rd Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven"]
------------------
It's also true that there is a significant period of time...
with the fulfillment of many prophetic "signs" never known
before the end of the Great Commission.
------------------
In fact it is very simple to PROVE Great Tribulation events
were never understood (much less fulfilled) at 70AD...
or in any period during the Great Commission. Because
there are (literally) dozens of passages that contradict
that notion and several passages that specifically PROMISE
the fulfillment of Daniel's Abomination and end-time events
COULD NOT be known until after the destruction
of the Revelation Beasts(s).
--------------------
In other words, prophetic "signs" regarding Daniel's prophecies
and the fulfillment of Great Tribulation events were PROMISED
to remain "closed-up" and "sealed" [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]...
until the Last Saints, who also "see" the fulfillment of
Great Tribulation "signs" [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]
----------------------
Here is a link discussing some of these matters:
www.5thkingdomofheaven.com/chapter-4
---------------------
Note, that is to chapter four of the little book.
You should read chapters 1-3 and you should see
Daniel's "Abomination" revealed in chapter 8
----------------------
If you can find even ONE VERSE in the Bible that
contradicts anything revealed on that website I will
immediately delete the entire site.
----------------------
But be warned... this information has already been tested
by some of the most esteemed theologians teaching in
some of the most prestigious seminaries in American...
and NONE of them could find a single contradiction.
(See "Recipient's" page).
----------------------
I invite you (and your church) to try to do better.
-----------------------
I’m glad you said that because this is my first go around and I’m struggling to keep up.
@@sdh4557 yeah. I just didn't have the categories for it at first. But as I grow, more of what they say I have reference or working knowledge now.
My leanings are more postmil, but an eclectic view of Revelation is I think the better fit, but don't hold me to it yet!
I agree. It is getting clearer for me too. Thanks for commenting. I don't feel so alone now....✌
@@sdh4557 Hi.
I try to get people to help this famously
unhealthy plattform known as UA-cam.
Can you please report/flag Nudity
and P-o-r-n on UA-cam??
Its easier than it sounds and will
have great effect.
This comment-section surely has to have
people willing to help strangers for no physical reward, right?!
Piper made me tear up at the 2 hour mark - I just feel like a simple laymen after watching this. Great moderating for the every day listener. Hoping and praying to grow more in understanding.
Hey brother, it's been a year since you've prayed for more understanding... How's it coming?
@@toddcote4904 Well, interpret it as you wish - but shortly after that comment, God placed me on staff at a church and I'm now learning and growing every day. God had a funny way of sorting my life out.
I love how God is glorified by confounding the wise. Great discussion I’m glad I made time for it.
Perfect.
Angels who persevere and heard the WORD and my HOSTS shared "i" AM! Thank you and Gratitude and Honor
Eight years late to comment; but this discussion, even when heated, was a great blessing.
Hi.
I try to get people to help this famously
unhealthy plattform known as UA-cam.
Can you please report/flag Nudity
and P-o-r-n on UA-cam??
Its easier than it sounds and will
have great effect.
This comment-section surely has to have
people willing to help strangers for no physical reward, right?!
😂 💯 🙏🏼 Same! Better late than never
I literally just purchased Doug’s commentary on Revelation. It’s a book entitled “When the Man Comes Around.” I made it an entire hour and a half into this video before I realized that I was listening to the author of that very book!
Kenneth Ash - how is it? I know he’s a partial preterist like Chilton, but I think he still believes in something like the rapture, right?
C S hey hey, I haven’t read that book but generally in a postmill view Jesus doesn’t take out the church from the world. Where it says as in the days of “Noah where the flood came and took them all away” the righteous stay in the world while the evil get taken away.
I just started reading it! Pretty good so far!
That's the problem with these bible colleges, especially the baptist ones. The man comes out as parrots, repeating the same old thing , penal substitution, eternal security, positional righteousness, original sin ,the doctrine of inability. We're all sinners, filthy rags, chief of sinners, none righteousness, nobody's perfect, Read the bible for yourselves. These people don't have all the answers! Watch Mike Desario teaching on U-Tube. Buy far the best bible teacher out there !
@@ConciseCabbage the "rapture" is Jesus' second coming
Anyone reading this, if you haven't repented yet, please REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND.
Lord Jesus✝️have mercy on you🙏
I LOVE YOU JESUS✝️
I cannot recall a more down-to-earth, humble, well-reasoned, prayerful, earnest, and Godly discussion of a most difficult theological subject. All these men demonstrated their profound education, their wisdom, their love for God, their love for one another, and their love for the congregation. One of the few times in my life that I can say this about Christian leaders.
This was an absolute joy to listen to! Thanks for having this uploaded
Best line “Ya but Jesus said this in the time of Jesus”. Dead 😂😂
L2....
-------------------
While it is true the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
begins when God takes the "Kingdom of God" (Holy Spirit)
away from the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" and
gives it to the New Testament "church"...
-----------------
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, the KINGDOM OF GOD
shall be TAKEN from you [TAKEN from the Jewish Kingdom],
and it was GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits
thereof [and then it was GIVEN to the 3rd Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven"]
------------------
It's also true that there is a significant period of time...
with the fulfillment of many prophetic "signs" never known
before the end of the Great Commission.
------------------
In fact it is very simple to PROVE Great Tribulation events
were never understood (much less fulfilled) at 70AD...
or in any period during the Great Commission. Because
there are (literally) dozens of passages that contradict
that notion and several passages that specifically PROMISE
the fulfillment of Daniel's Abomination and end-time events
COULD NOT be known until after the destruction
of the Revelation Beasts(s).
--------------------
In other words, prophetic "signs" regarding Daniel's prophecies
and the fulfillment of Great Tribulation events were PROMISED
to remain "closed-up" and "sealed" [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]...
until the Last Saints, who also "see" the fulfillment of
Great Tribulation "signs" [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]
----------------------
Here is a link discussing some of these matters:
www.5thkingdomofheaven.com/chapter-4
---------------------
Note, that is to chapter four of the little book.
You should read chapters 1-3 and you should see
Daniel's "Abomination" revealed in chapter 8
----------------------
If you can find even ONE VERSE in the Bible that
contradicts anything revealed on that website I will
immediately delete the entire site.
----------------------
But be warned... this information has already been tested
by some of the most esteemed theologians teaching in
some of the most prestigious seminaries in American...
and NONE of them could find a single contradiction.
(See "Recipient's" page).
----------------------
I invite you (and your church) to try to do better.
-----------------------
Jehovah Witness is incorrect interpretation, at best!
My favorite line too. Doug Wilson the savage
@@wisevirgin3405
Take down for your sake, you have allegorize Scripture to support your point and He will hold you accountable.
Shalom
@@ronaller5209 ... Child, if that were true then you would have NO PROBLEM
showing at least ONE VERSE of Scripture that contradicts ANYTHING on
the site (equivalent to 300 page book)... and yet you were not able to
REFUTE a single word... just pretend DENIAL means something
(other then being unable to REFUTE with Scripture)
------------
www.5thkingdomofheaven.com
---------
Wow…what a gift this is. Being able to listen and learn from these men who love God, the Word, and clearly each other, is the kind of witness and discipleship the church needs more of. Thank you all for doing this!
I THOROUGHLY ENJOYED THIS SO MUCH. SUCH A DELIGHT TO HEAR ALL SIDES. Ignites me to think and read and seek out more, the Scriptures.
I think John Piper is a great moderator for these sorts of things
ray ortiz yeah, he’s a very gifted interpersonal communicator which is probably why he’s such a good connector when preaching. Love brother Piper.
Amill - ua-cam.com/video/OyEq07uMOHc/v-deo.html
Wrong. The premill gets twice as much talking time as the other two.
Rodney Spencer - agreed. Piper let’s his premil partner interrupt freely, but stops the other guys when they try to challenge.
@@davemazur2062 Hes historic premil
One of my greatest "lightbulb" moments was realizing that John (the apostle) did not keep saying, "and then," but, "and then I saw". In other words, he didn't keep repeating what "and then" came next, but, "and then I saw" the next picture God showed me. HUGE difference!
Exactly! Revelation is not necessarily in chronological order.
You know what you know and what you don't know, know you don't know it. If you're not sure about something you're not sure end.
It is written: “’As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
Yes, I love that. Can’t wait to see it and bow and confess. I do it every day now
Wilson nailed it
Best ever! Held me captive for two hours. A must watch for all. Thank you and please do more.
Thank you so much for doing and posting this discussion. It made me love Jesus and his saints more.
Beautiful example of loving Jesus with all your mind. Thank you for posting!
This was truly edifying. I love healthy discussion and a coming together to discuss the things of God!
Wonderful discussion! We need more of this in a series. We all eagerly await for Jesus, our Lord and Savior's return and we say "Come, Lord Jesus!"
Ordinary man....
-------------------
While it is true the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
begins when God takes the "Kingdom of God" (Holy Spirit)
away from the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" and
gives it to the New Testament "church"...
-----------------
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, the KINGDOM OF GOD
shall be TAKEN from you [TAKEN from the Jewish Kingdom],
and it was GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits
thereof [and then it was GIVEN to the 3rd Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven"]
------------------
It's also true that there is a significant period of time...
with the fulfillment of many prophetic "signs" never known
before the end of the Great Commission.
------------------
In fact it is very simple to PROVE Great Tribulation events
were never understood (much less fulfilled) at 70AD...
or in any period during the Great Commission. Because
there are (literally) dozens of passages that contradict
that notion and several passages that specifically PROMISE
the fulfillment of Daniel's Abomination and end-time events
COULD NOT be known until after the destruction
of the Revelation Beasts(s).
--------------------
In other words, prophetic "signs" regarding Daniel's prophecies
and the fulfillment of Great Tribulation events were PROMISED
to remain "closed-up" and "sealed" [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]...
until the Last Saints, who also "see" the fulfillment of
Great Tribulation "signs" [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]
----------------------
Here is a link discussing some of these matters:
www.5thkingdomofheaven.com/chapter-4
---------------------
Note, that is to chapter four of the little book.
You should read chapters 1-3 and you should see
Daniel's "Abomination" revealed in chapter 8
----------------------
If you can find even ONE VERSE in the Bible that
contradicts anything revealed on that website I will
immediately delete the entire site.
----------------------
But be warned... this information has already been tested
by some of the most esteemed theologians teaching in
some of the most prestigious seminaries in American...
and NONE of them could find a single contradiction.
(See "Recipient's" page).
----------------------
I invite you (and your church) to try to do better.
-----------------------
This is my 10th time watching this, and my postmillennialism is strengthened each time. Wonderful dialog.
@Ben Höflinger Yep. All of those things were very influential in changing my perspective.
I’m rewatching it too lol
@@blibbers8843 Dang it man. You had to comment and bring be to the video to watch it once again!
@@merecatholicity my pleasure!
Postmil for sure
My God Douge is such a blessing! So light hearted and hilarious!
Not even 10m in and the opening prayer is honestly in itself ✨💝✨
After reading Doug's view I have since dropped my pretrib premill Dispensational Theology and can see Eschatology so much clearer.
And how long did that take?
So have I
Not me, I am even more convinced of pre millennialism.
Post mills unite! Haha
@The Lighthouse I am sure the first century Christians couldn't have understood how their sacrifice could have expanded the reach of the truth of the Messiah. Maybe our nation is about to go into a period of falling away so that the kingdom can increase. Just a thought. I am still searching this out. I by no means want to be contentious and I am going to look for your channel! My heart breaks for this nation and I don't want to give up on reaching the next generation.
I’m listening to this message..... Praise God for the revelation through Your Servant John Piper
Right around 42:00 as Piper and Wilson were discussing not wanting to go to Heaven because of their skewed views of what it is was SO relatable!
Watching today in August of 2021. I love their exposition on the Good News.... So beautiful
While my comments a little late, I want to express my respect and admiration for each of these men. Their faith and dedication is evident. I must admit this is the first time I have heard use if the "millinium" as a place marker, rather than the "tribulation." Thank you so much. God bless you all.
Half way through this...and I'm loving it. This is the way that godly and scholarly believers who have a passion for clarity and for the truth can have a fruitful discussion. So good. What a blessing they all are. I don't know much about Jim Hamilton. He's good though. But I've loved the other three for a long time.
Time-stamps
11:10, 11:35 - Why talking about end times matters?
16:00
15:24 - jokes
24:10, 25:10 - Where it gets interesting
33:50 - Eden and the new Heaven and the new earth
1:15:18 - a startling remark
1:21:25, 1:24:50 - bound
1:27:25, 1:28:08, 1:29:50 - Matthew 28:18-20
I am sticking with being pan-mil. It will pan out in the end. Today has enough troubles of its own.
@@donnarowe6027Me too. But eh, who knows? I may dive into eschatology at some point.
I think we can all agree that my view is the clear winner here
This is a phenomenal group of Bible scholars who have differing beliefs but respect each other’s views. They also will make you laugh. It’s long so I had to watch it between things
I had to do. It’s well worth your time! I would like to say to these men, THANK YOU! ALL OF YOU HELPED ME TREMENDOUSLY! I will read Revelation again with more understanding! God bless you all!
Patricia... the Bible clearly teaches [Mat 13] the Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven" consists of many unsaved "tares"
(sown by Satan) and relatively few saved "wheat"
(sown by God) and we can tell the difference
by their "fruit". False gospels are the "fruit"
of unsaved "tares" not saved "wheat"
-------------------
While it is true the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
begins when God takes the "Kingdom of God" (Holy Spirit)
away from the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" and
gives it to the New Testament "church"...
-----------------
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, the KINGDOM OF GOD
shall be TAKEN from you [TAKEN from the Jewish Kingdom],
and it was GIVEN to a nation bringing forth the fruits
thereof [and then it was GIVEN to the 3rd Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven"]
------------------
It's also true that there is a significant period of time...
with the fulfillment of many prophetic "signs" never known
before the end of the Great Commission.
------------------
In fact it is very simple to PROVE Great Tribulation events
were never understood (much less fulfilled) at 70AD...
or in any period during the Great Commission. Because
there are (literally) dozens of passages that contradict
that notion and several passages that specifically PROMISE
the fulfillment of Daniel's Abomination and end-time events
COULD NOT be known until after the destruction
of the Revelation Beasts(s).
--------------------
In other words, prophetic "signs" regarding Daniel's prophecies
and the fulfillment of Great Tribulation events were PROMISED
to remain "closed-up" and "sealed" [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]...
until the Last Saints, who also "see" the fulfillment of
Great Tribulation "signs" [Mat 24:15 and 24:33]
----------------------
Here is a link discussing some of these matters:
www.5thkingdomofheaven.com/chapter-4
---------------------
Note, that is to chapter four of the little book.
You should read chapters 1-3 and you should see
Daniel's "Abomination" revealed in chapter 8
----------------------
If you can find even ONE VERSE in the Bible that
contradicts anything revealed on that website I will
immediately delete the entire site.
----------------------
But be warned... this information has already been tested
by some of the most esteemed theologians teaching in
some of the most prestigious seminaries in American...
and NONE of them could find a single contradiction.
(See "Recipient's" page).
----------------------
I invite you (and your church) to try to do better.
-----------------------
Don't get me wrong.. I absolutely love this stuff... But imagine how crazy all this would look and sound to an unbeliever.
Adam Woodie my thoughts exactly
😂 it's so funny when you put it that way. As believers we come expectant to learn and understand more. I suppose unbelievers would think we need to be committed to the mental institution 😄
We exist for the glory of God, not each other.
Shouldn't really be a consideration. If you don't meet the prerequisites...
Those who have ears...
I went from pre-trib to amill when I started reading my Bible
Me too but I went all the way to PostMill 😁
What a blessing listening to those close statement's... "We are refined in what God has called us by discussing word of God in Love" Amen!!
One thing I liked about Jim is that He was so so confident on what he believed to be true. I didn't perceive any iota of doubt in Him. That's probably why he may have seemed rude, because He was so outspoken and sure and so eager and happy to share what he believed to be rude. I shouldn't expect that anyone would be surprised or annoyed if an injection occured in a debate, of course, that's what a debate is for. However, I love their spirit of unity and respect for one another which I would say is that fact that we as true believers have one same Spirit binding us together as one body.
Kudos to John Piper for his moderation skills. I hope I get the opportunity to meet with you one day. But that opportunity looks very very slim, I know.
Let's keep up the good work of publishing the Gospel. God bless the Church of Jesus Christ. Amen!
True, but he should not have interrupted as often as he did.
Often wrong but never in doubt is not a compliment. With wisdom comes the humility to say you don't know for sure but this is what you do know.
You will probably or surely meet him in glory wherever that is , you have forever so it is not a slim chance .
These guys crack me up! I love it. Thanks for posting.
A preacher/pastor is the only person on earth who can say they're speechless and give a 20 minute sermon.
It was a brother in Christ challenging my Dispy premil eschatology and watching this interaction and Sam Storms that sent me deeper into the scriptures and I became Amil shortly there after. I can also thank the pandemic in a way for allowing some more free time to look more carefully into end times theology.
I'd probably spend some more time listening to others than Sam Storms. Maybe counter that with guys like Dr. Reagan on end time prophecy or Chuck Mislers Revelation study here on UA-cam or even read John Macarthurs "Because the time is near." It was doing that for me that made me realize the Amil and Postmil views just don't make sense.
@@nvanark I was saying just at the very beginning of me being challenged about my Dispy eschatology did I listen to Storms. I’ve been Amil now almost 4 years. I used to listen and read to Reagan, Hocking, Ryrie, MacArthur, walvoord, Pentecost and the like. I’ve read and listened to many Amil teachers as well. I’ve been studying the word for many years. After all the studying and reading the Amil position is the most biblical.
@@adamcarpenter1869 It isn't but fortunately for all of us this isn't a salvific issue. I have a hard time believing that all the prophecy (and there is a lot of them) leading up to Christ was fulfilled in a literal way, that God then would show John all of what has been, is and is to come BUT God left that up to our own imaginations to subjectively believe and interpret end time prophecy. The Amil position just takes whatever they want from scripture and makes it into whatever they want. Some of it symbolic or allegorical, other parts you do interpret literally, others you have to twist to make it fit, Satan is supposedly bound at the moment even tho evil is rampant and increasing today, and of course 70AD is the answer to everything even tho Christ didn't return in 70AD. That's totally opposite of how we are to read and interpret scripture. The Amil position also sets out to call God a liar. It removes his plan for Israel in the future and how He will deal with Israel during the tribulation.
The best line of the night:
“What about babies?”
“We baptized them.”
😁😆😂
Helo u all christians. I am hindu born India and become interested in jesus. What many peeple told me is that I need to repent of sins and put trust in jeesus christ and that he paid the fine of my sins on the cross.
but there's another group which tells me that jesus died for a very small number of peeple and that God only chooses them and forgets about the rest.
How do i know that jesus died for me?
these peeple also told me i cannot be saved untill God first changes my desires. Do i have to do anything before it to become regenrated? then why do they keep telling me to put trust in him when i am unable to? Do i have to coperate with God for me to saved? many people are so angry at coperation. What should i do, they confuse me so much, can you tell me?
@@ujansen5340 hey there! I'm so glad I'm watching this around the same time you are. I do believe God chooses His people. But that is not vitally important to the questions you're asking right now. The fact that you're even asking these questions could mean God is already preparing your heart for regeneration. Don't worry about if you are chosen, just keep asking questions. Keep reading your Bible (if you have one).
Some of what you've been told is true. God created man very good. But we messed it up by disobeying Him. By sinning. Because of our sin death, disease, pain, and suffering are now a part of human life. And not only that but sin infects us like a cancer. It changed our nature from one that was very good to one that loved sin and hates God.
Now the good news: Jesus Christ, the Son of God, lived a perfect sinless life and died the death we deserve. Through that death He paid the debt of those who believe and gave them his perfect righteousness. He knew no sin but He became sin on behalf of His people.
His people aren't special. We didn't do anything to deserve salvation. We didn't get new desires before God accepted us and regenerated us. We didn't get cleaned up so we might become presentable to God. Because of sin, this is impossible. Apart from Jesus, we can't clesn ourselves up. That is something only God can do. This is what we call grace. "By grace you have been saved through faith, not by works, so that no man may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
Jesus told us to repent of our sin and believe in Him as Lord of our lives. This means we turn away from what God calls sin and we follow Him. We will still mess up. We will still commit sin. But that sin, which has been paid for, makes our hearts heavy and we run to Jesus for grace and the power to overcome those sins. This is what we call sanctification. A life following Jesus is a progressive journey where we become more like Him and eventually, in heaven will be like Him: sinless and perfect human beings.
I encourage you to follow Jesus. Don't worry about whether you're chosen or not. Don't worry about getting cleaned up or getting new desires. Just follow Him. Submit to Him as Lord and King over your life.
If I can help answer more questions, please do reach out. I don't have all the answers, but I can always find out and help you along this journey.
Peace be with you, Ujan Sen.
@@dustindentremont7056 Why did you not answer my question?
I have read the Gospel is many time. But the problem i see is that i should not cooperate with God to assist He in my regeneration. I do not put my faith in Him, it is He and He only who exclusively gives me faith. All I do is hate Him and never listen to Him.
I am like Lazarus from dead. Why are you asking me to have faith when I do not have spiritual ears? Your words have no value unless God regenerates me.
I thought God was loving god. He love every one. Why did He predesteen my father to be unable to have faith and go to hell?
It is not myself who follow Him. God makes me follow him. I know Christians are not synergists.
@@CodeRedCoder Jesus wants to save everyone? I thought God elected a very few people before the foundation of the world. If he has already elected them, then why does he say he wants to save everyone when in fact he actively condemns people to hell for reasons beyond their control?
@@CodeRedCoder Which side should I believe? Now i sew two different standpoints. This "calvinism" is very confusing. Why are they blurring the Bible?
I've watched this a few times and keep returning! Love the nature of this discussion... Piper, Hamilton, Storms and Wilson? Great line up! Thank you for putting this resource out for us all.
Thank you Desiring God ministries.
This video has caused more people to start their journey to Postmil than almost any other video out there.
Good conversation and discussion. Thank you for bringing up and making us think. I hope God will make us clear when we r with Him. One thing for sure is Christ is coming back and we have to be ready n prepared.
Outstanding debate! Doug's temperament and wit are first class. Very enriching discussion
Indeed. "There are no dragons, no women" 😂😂😂
I’m unimpressed by his wit. Satan can be witty. He teaches a false gospel.
Good humour but terrible eschatology.
Watched twice completely (about 5 years ago and few hours ago)
I am so blessed.
It refined the way I henceforth see everyone in the protestant circle. We're one despite slight difference born out of zeal for God's Truth.
This remains my best debate/discussion ever.
Have you seen the discussion by SEBTS on this topic? It's pretty good too. Not as long or as heated but very good too.
Or what about this six part series…
ua-cam.com/video/X1oEmg6iqow/v-deo.htmlsi=PGDv6nHPR9-9xk5_
I remember acting like this as a premillenialist, constantly interrupting thinking everyone else is wrong, But now diecovering both the reformed baptist faith, and postmillenialism, i find myself and my brothers paedo and credo baptist offering much more grace to premillenialists and yet knowing the subject more in depth than that view i once held.
This does NOT apply to everyone, it’s however a pattern i have noticed
Jim thinks it is his right to fully explain his position, and then interrupt and try to pull the pegs out of every point the others make in trying to explain their positions.
@@BibleSongs i agree, and i get it bc i was once there and would behave in this manner with my Calvinism. It takes a while for even Christians to slow down and be Patient.
I love the arguments of Jim Hamilton and Sam Storms. I'd want to hang out with Doug Wilson. Dude's got jokes
I just watched it again. Probably worth watching this a couple times a year, every year, until Jesus returns. Such charitable but passionate debating, may God be glorified by our love one for another, even when we vehemently disagree!
This is such a wonderful conversation.
Doug Wilson makes a great partial-preterist point (which can be used by either postmils or amils) at 1:50:30, which address very well Hamilton’s (premil) and Storm’s (amil) disagreement about the nature of when the millennium begins.
Storms is equating the 42 months of persecution in chap 12 with the the 1000 years of the saints’ reigning in heaven in chap 20.
Hamilton seems to agree that the 42 months are symbolic for the church age and that the martyrs in Rev 20 that are part of the first resurrection of “martyrs” are symbolic for all dead believers from the whole gospel era before the millennium.
The solution, as Wilson suggests so briefly, is to recognize that the 42 months of persecution are related to Nero’s persecution between AD 64 and 68, and is connect to the Jewish-Roman war. This period of 42 is not symbolic for the church age. It is a period that overlaps with the Jewish-Roman war (during which the Roman beast is given power to conquer unbelieving Israel, Rev 11:2). The war itself is a 42 month period from AD 66 to 70, which corresponds to Christ’s making war and bringing judgment on unfaithful Israel through the destruction of the temple. But it is also a judgment upon Rome through the death of Nero and the year of the Roman civil war of the four emperors (Rev. 12:10-12; 19:15). These events for the churches are described through the lense of persecution in Rev 1-4, then Christ rides forth to war, symbolically speaking, in chap 5-19. The battle in 19 summarizes the defeat and death of both Simon the false Jewish Messiah as well as Nero, the false savior of the gentiles. Chap 20 is a separate period from the persecutions of the 42 months and the war, it begins as Wilson says, historically with the resurrection to heaven of the specific martyrs at the end of the fall of the Temple and the Old Testament age. Chap 20 is the launching point of the gospel age, begun at the cross but now historically vindicated and proclaimed over the nations by the fall of temple order, that had lost its way, just as Jesus had predicted. For as Isaiah 66:1 proclaims those who worship need no temple built with hands but only those who worship Christ in spirit and in truth, for God is looking for worshipers such as these. And he is looking to heal Jerusalem such that it becomes the beloved city once again, and when he comes in the future, it will be to defend his faithful bride of both Jew and Gentiles as one people (Rev 20:9; Zach. 14). In that day there will be only one king over all the earth.
This partial-preterist way of interpreting it solves the problem of picking and choosing which parts of Revelation to de-historicize as both idealists amils (Storms) and futurist premils (Hamilton) do at certain points of necessity.
Storms and Hamilton can’t take Revelation’s symbolism very historically because Storms takes it more as pictures of truths that apply during the whole church age, and Hamilton, while setting much of it historically in the future, can’t take the immediate context of John’s symbol’s seriously because he misdates Revelation to AD 90s rather than to AD 64. One should take the internal witness of Chap 17 regarding the vision being given during during the reign of the 6th Roman emperor/head (Nero). Almost half of the commentators take this early date for the book and it fits Nero’s persecutions much better than Domitian. It also allows us to take the symbols of revelation as having direct historical correspondence. As opposed to saying the symbols were given during Domitian’s time but make historical connection to Nero’s time, but really are about some other historical era and events in a future time.
Views of the millennium are really down stream from the more basic interpretive decisions in choosing between the partial-preterist, futurist, historicist, and idealist approaches. One may take an eclectic approach and combine views, which is helpful. But one of these views will still predominate. Partial-preterism is on the rise because the church is becoming more aware of the history of the second temple context and this provides a strong basis for overthrowing the liberal denials for Jesus’ most accurate prophesy concerning the fall of the temple and his judgment coming against it.
Once one becomes aware of the power of this fulfilled prophesy paradigm the new challenge becomes to preserve the distinction between the millennium’s Gog and Magog war (future) and the Jewish war of AD 70 (past). I’m an optimistic amil myself (partial preterist), but unfortunately certain idealist amil views, when combined with preterism result in the error of full preterism, which denies the future of the general resurrection and the coming of Christ bodily. If you study this stuff in depth you would be wise to avoid this mistake.
Blessings to all as we search out the truth, for we yet see in a glass darkly, but then we shall see him face to face. Even so, come Lord Jesus, and in the mean time help us be humble and to learn from each other’s gifts.
Thank you for this comment, I have been studying Eschatology for awhile now and I currently hold to the partial-preterist post-millennial view
Eschatology is my new biblical journey so I am yet to developed my system. However I am definitely leaning towards post millennium/partial preterist. To me it is the most easy reading of the text. It has answered some other things I’ve had difficulty reconciling in my mind. Also, and probably most importantly, I believe this view fuels the saints to share the Gospel BODLY! I didn’t realize but I’ve always been under a Pretrib teaching and I always wondered why we are not on fire to share the Gospel. All I can gather is that we think it’s a “sinking ship” so just do what we’re commanded and wait for the worst. I was taught shard the Gospel and you’re off the hook. So basically do the bare minimum. 🤔 I can’t get on board with that. I’m still studying and researching but I am realizing your eschatological view definitely impacts the way you live your Christian life.
Where did you come out? (I was raised dispensational and am now partial preterist postmill)
It seems like Dougs position is not taken seriously in this conversation, but the more and more I listen and think he makes the most since.
Dylan Wagoner because he does make the most sense. When you make the most sense, you don’t have to vigorously defend it. The proof actually defends itself, and you can stay calm and enjoy the discussion
yeah. I'm progressively am having a more post-millennial view as time passes. Gary Demar is helping me that corner as well
Doug is right I think. Postmill
@@PatternSon Gary DeMar is great.
Postmil is the only position that doesn’t seem like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
John Piper and Doug Wilson at the same table... incredible.
Scott Carter indeed!!
\Why would two Christian brothers sitting at the same table be thought incredible?
@@gregb6469 Agreed, especially when they have both demonstrably been shown to consistently sow confusion and strife within the church through their teachings and their associations with false teachers.
Leave it to Piper to assemble a panel of poorly-credentialed men to speak on a difficult subject instead of bring actual academic theologians who specialize in Eschatology, and the historic views on it, like Kim Riddlebarger.
@@cigardawg -- Credentials? Since when did worldly measurments become the standard for qualifying God's servants? None of the 12 Apostles had advanced degrees.
Federal vision hetetics
I learn so much every time I watch this talk. I've even bought Doug Wilson's book, Heaven Misplaced!
First time I saw this was close to 10 years ago. I've watched is several times through the years.
I use to nod my head with all of them, not able to take a stance.
I agree with Doug Wilson now. I'm post mil and partial preterist now.
what a discussion. Such a bless. Thank you guys. From Jakarta
Can't believe Piper is adding comedy relief in this 🤣 laughed a lot in many spots of this video 😜
Needs an understanding of eschatology, kindly do again the discussion.lt is very interesting and important to me and the church.
When I watch this roundtable discussion, I still remain an amillennialist with a positive zeal (a little triumphalist in postmillennialist sauce!) for the fulfillment of the command to go and make disciples of Jesus of all nations for His glory alone.
Okay after this discussion, I just want to have coffee with Douglas Wilson
I never realized how much I want to be friends with John Piper until after this video
Gotta love the elders in faith roasting each other in godly love ❤️
Wow. This was so much more educational, instructional, and entertaining than I expected. God bless all of these teachers.
The one significant truth of Post-mil is indeed Christ the king, conquering thru history via the gospel. Beyond that, rule is spiritual, not physical. I hold to Amil, but see an increase in persecution at the end.
Daniel R - I agree but persecution comes and goes all across the world as does Gods judgement, look at society now in America alone, legalized abortion and most Christians "hung up their gloves" so to speak, awaiting the end of the world which could very well be another 2k years. We don't know but things didn't really get worse, they've always been bad!
What a beautiful display of men debating in a civil manner.
Well, Doug and Sam at least.
Love pipers voice,,,,sounds like one of those 11 pm to 3 am conspiracy radio dj’s you listen to while driving alone through southwest deserts watching for mysterious lights in the sky
That’s the best comment I’ve read in a while.
This is just pure pure gold
I just honestly see Doug's view more visibly throughout history, it does seem like an eb and flow of the gospel winning slowly but surely.
You really see a better world? How?
@@soteriology1012 You think Christians were better off in the first or second centuries AD? Or mankind in general?
Justin Honaker Read Paul's warnings to Timothy in the later chapters of the epistle to timothy.
Christian's haven't stopped suffering since the resurrection. It all comes down to where you look.
@@JustinHonaker Yes, because postmodernism has effectively caused the annihilation of Truth, and globalization will only exacerbate it. The internet is bombarding everyone, especially younger generations to continental philosophies. Where is the optimism in that? At least back then you could have a discussion.
Very good and respectful well done!
I would really like to see an updated round table with these men in view of our rapidly changing world.
@10:03 While just a basic principle of the gospel, the way he unpacked it made so much of Paul's writings about dying with Christ and stuff make sense to me way more for some reason. Solid unpacking love it! Thank you guys for doing this all those years ago, would love to hear your thoughts since then!
1:52:19 - this moment deserved multiple thumbs-up!
thank you for making available this wonderful, insightful discussion!
@@countrysidefilms3860 Haha yeah! That made it even funnier.
I guess I would say yes...until I do a deeper analysis. My church is part of the GKSA (Refromed Churches South Africa) group and we do infant baptism.
@@clarissarehder4506 I gotcha. Never heard of the GKSA before! I'm CREC (Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches), and I'd be surprised if you've heard of it.
I knew this wouldn’t end with people agreeing on the main topic, but I’m thankful I watched cuz I’ve learned some things I didn’t know, and probably need.
It’s important to remember that we as finite mortals are reading and discussing revelations from an infinite immortal. Conviction with humility is key which is why I very much appreciated the heated debate.
Wow that sounded just like dinner at my house! Love it. Thank you!
Jeff Richards If that’s the case then I wanna join your family dinners
Gina Monge me too lol
Teach us how you have dinner like this at your house! Honestly, theological conversations are one of my greatest passions. Talking Bible and eating great food sounds like heaven on earth! Lol
John Piper is a great moderator. Doug, Jim & Sam all did well. Doug has also made a point in his presentation and I would love to know more about Sam's points.