Red Dots on CCW Pistols - Part 3 - NOT RECOMMENDED
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2020
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I've experienced this personally. Been using red dots for years now, seemed to work quite well, I went back to irons and literally shoot better and faster, especially at close range. Wish I could tell James this personally. This dude was always WAY ahead of our time in the firearm industry. RIP James you're the man.
Why do you think it is that you shoot irons better than a dot now? Is it due to recoil and finding the dot after a second shot? Do you primarily carry with irons or a dot now? Genuinely curious
@Joshua Bracke I think a big reason for faster shots up close (as most self defense situations are) is because if you have defensive sights such as the amerigo hackathorns, you can see that big green or orange dot in your peripheral way before you get a sight picture with a dot.
Since this post, I began using smaller moa dots for competition, and that has helped my accuracy a lot. Especially the 1 moa trijicon sro.
I honestly think learning to steady a dot makes irons feel even more steady.
They both have their place. As of now, I'm back to carrying with a dot because it's what I compete with and am very comfortable with.
Although for self-defense, the little bit of accuracy loss with irons overall versus a dot may be worth the trade for speed up close and not having to worry about batteries, brightness settings, dirty lenses, etc.
Colin noir just had a guy in his channel do an interview where he explained that during his self defense shooting incident, his holosun got caught in his shirt upon draw
I just shot a CCW match today. For the scenarios with targets within 10 yards, I didn't even look at my sights. I was target focused doing point shooting and the shots were solid. When I tried to find the dot , it slowed me down. It's my first Green Dot Sight, I normally carry irons. It's a bit easier at distance , but that's the only difference, I don't think I'm going to mill the slide on my main carry gun,
@@TheHonestTruthI saw that interview. He also said it was all point aim shooting, he doesn't even remember using his sights... which is a common report in defensive shootings.
I really appreciate all you offer to the community James. Thank you for being you and providing this and much more to us.
i live in the south. presents a fogging problem moving from a air conditioned environment to a sticky hot humid outdoor environment. Always trust the irons
What kind of dot? My rmr 2s with some cat crap routinely go from a 50 degree vehicle to a 110 plus sec state humid outdoors without issue. The only time I can actually make it happen naturally (excepting taking it into the shower and not having the vent on) is sticking under actual refrigeration and going straight outside.
I appreciate your candid honest from an actual shooting instructor with many years of experience because from just thinking about it, I have thought like you but pondered the question. Thank you for saving me a bunch of money! :) God bless you and your family, James.
Back up iron sights that make you look through the glass caused my PD some issues. most of the time it was not that the dot went down it was the glass was fogged, or covered in something else. And with that issue the back up front sight was invisible also. Cold AC in the car on summer nights was a big issue at the time (mid to late 2000's) with rifles coming from a cruiser rack. Anti fog helped, but I don't think I would want to look through glass on both guns, just in case that gremlin showed up in a fight.
If you shoot with both eyes open it is irrelevant.
Peter Mular Lies, it's still very relevant.
I shoot both eyes open, hard to put a dot or front sight on someone if you can't see the dot or front sight, no amount of training will let you see a dot when it's obscured sufficiently
@@pmular
Yeah. It’s becoming common now to tape over the front of the optic, in training and even in comps.
@@Robert-qm7yi Bindon Aiming Concept. The primary eye will see the illuminated reticle inside the sight, while the other eye sees the target and the background. These are two separate images, but the brain receives the signal from both eyes and automatically merges the images. You can complete cover the RMR with tape and still shoot with the dot with both eyes open.
I was at the Alumni weekend and I did shoot the Terran Tactical pistol (Very nice weapon) with the red dot and it exposed flaws in my grip that I have to work on.
Thank you for coming forward and saying this.
Thank you James. You are with the Lord now but your teaching remains with us. Rest in Peace.
I bought a G48 MOS just to see how it works. I found my experience to be the same as yours. Right out of the box I could put a magazine worth of rounds in the 4 and 5 rings if a FLETC target at 50 yards if I took my time. Without the dot I would be happy to hit the silhouette half time at that range.. However, that is not a very likely scenario. At realistic self defense ranges I was faster if a little less accurate with iron from the holster and that is the most important shot in a DGU. I am sure if I took that extra time I would be just as accurate. The more the shots I fired after the draw tended to favor the red dot. I found the bouncing dot to be a distracted when shooting on the move which made me slower and less accurate. I am sure the same thing happens with irons but being fixed in place gives a reference point. I will probably remove the red dot when I finish all my experimentation and just use iron sights.
What happened, did you keep it on or take it off?
Training is way more important than any gear your going to buy .. And he's completely right about that
I stockpiled a long time ago .. And by me I haven't seen a big difference in price on ammo just empty shelves or not in stock .. But it's kinda expensive in my state anyway .
@@wolfriver3421 ITS DOUBLED IN PRICE FOR ME,BUT I GOT A LOT OF 9MM
Guy.. ammo has fucking doubled if not more around me. Pisses me off. And the Covid bullshit is making it worse for ammo makers and the market.
Each individual should use whats best for them,i like both red dots or steel sights.Its more abt training to me.
Thank you for the clarification and the definitive recommendation. Great stuff as usual.
Nicely and respectfully done! A question: Have you seen or done any kind of evaluation for trifocal wearers who eyes aren't what they were back in their USMC youth? I did trade my stock sights for a big hi-vis tritium sight and got measurable improvement. An instructor thought I see more improvement with a red dot.
Any solid info?
I don’t have any experience with a red dot on a pistol but I like my iron sights. I just took a pistol class Saturday and with that training I felt I could easily line up my irons pretty quickly. Of course focus on the front. I was considering a red dot until this class.
I've taken 4 classes im always the only guy running irons. I'm like the ugly duckling 😂
Me too , welcome to the ugly duckling MMFRS club 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
My biggest issue on red dot vs irons/xs was the red dot fills up with lint/dust and gets scratched often as a carry gun. I just switched to xs big dots a month ago, lower profile and easier to conceal as well. Plus your not 400 for a dot and 400 for a milled slide on top of a 400 dollar gun...
Gathering up all my stuff for tomorrow's class.. nervously excited its gonna be a warm couple of days... i have so much to learn I can't wait!
Good info James. I have a Holosun on one of my Glocks but my EDC is still the 43X with the DX2 Big Dots
I’ve recently slowly switched to dots and I don’t think I’m going to turn back. Definitely need to get some practice and training in with them, but from here on out I will probably be using red dots on serious use handguns
Thanks for the update!
Did you find any value in shooting on the move with the red dot vs irons? I think that is one of the things I like best since I transitioned to a dot on my carry gun.
I've had my RMR on my Glock 19 for awhile now and I can't train past the speed of acquiring a sight picture at close range. I think i'll install it on top of my ACOG.
I personally like red dots on my pistols I do have one irons-only gun as well! I learned how to use it at both close and far distances. I like the fact that he explains HIS point of view on it and I like how he even says I'm not saying not to do it. He's giving us his two cents in essence and I think it is a very good video for people to watch if they are debating on a red dot or not and to watch some videos on why to use one and make their decision. James is super knowledgeable and will always give you a reason behind his opinion on things.
You make valid points. It’s a great discussion to have man.
I carry a 19 with a red dot and big dot suppressor height sights.
Big dots or fiber fronts with a black red sight works very much light a red dot for me.
Side note. For really close distances, I hear someone say you could use the hood of the red dot for quick aiming.
Yes. You can use the top of the housing (guillotine method), look thru the glass (my preferred method, or stick the back plate on your target
@jamesyeager Respectfully, I can't disagree with your experience, but what about us old guys with failing eyesight? I have iron sights on my carry guns, but I can shoot much better with the ones that have red dots. Sorry if stupid question, but I've been thinking of switching and I listen to you opinions. Disclaimer: I've only shot one mag from a gun with big dots. My accuracy was less than stellar, but would surely improve with practice. I guess my main question is, which is better for near sighted people.
The next time you watch this video LISTEN and you will hear your answer.
I just got my first optic ready pistol (Canik TP9SFx) with a Vortex Venom red dot. Like you, I thought it was gonna be a game changer like it was on my rifle. Nope! I’m starting to get use to it, but for conceal carry, no way. Why add more to an already crazy stressful situation. I’m comfortable drawing and quickly finding my target with the irons, so I don’t see it helping a whole lot in that situation anyway. Fun to plink with though.
I’ve shot irons on pistols since my first, I am by no means partial. I bought a holosun micro for my carry pistol out of curiosity. I’m my experience it was weird getting use to but once I got the hang of it. Your age right about them nkt really helping but once you get out of thag distance it helps a lot! When it really comes down to it, train train train and get proficient with your equipment
I agree with u mr. Yeager i think there's a place for red dot on a hand gun but for me personally i perfer iron sights i guess im just more use to them from my younger days growing up shooting daisy pellet guns and 22 lr . And my ccw doesn't need anymore on it then what it already has which is the stock irons it doesn't hurt to upgrade to night sights but being comfortable with the weapon that u intend use if needed to me is the most important ,training and handling ur firearm on a daily is key .
AIM FOR KNOWLEDGE IS key as i say. J.Y. has been pumping info for many many years. Keep doing you J.Y.
I could see how it could cause/create a training scar. Maybe if all of your blasters had a red dot, during high stress it wouldn't be an issue. I've got an RMR cutout, but never filled it because of the potential catastrophic training inconsistency associated with them. Good insight James.
Haven’t tried one yet but love the data point from James, worst case if you get one and it doesn’t work on a pistol put it on a 10/22.
I run an rmr on my house gun, night sights on carry gun.
You started to cover the reason why, involving close distances, but then shifted away from them. Is there any way that you could please demonstrate your reasons on a range? I know that a lot of people are better at learning by seeing it than by hearing it, myself included.
If you dont want to or cannot for one reason or another, that's ok. In that case can you please explain a little more about your reasons?
Either way, thank you.
I agree there's no rush to switch to red dots, but if someone trained (properly) from the beginning with red dots, I think they will be able to perform just as well as they would have with iron sights.
And I can see some other advantages such as someone with deteriorating eye sight.
I agree with your opinion on ccw pistol. I am left eye dominant and use red dots on carbines and rifles. What is your opinion on lasers on ccw pistols. I carry the Olight Baldr mini on taurus G3c. I also have laser lights on my home defense gun.
I suggest you get training.
My biggest problem with a red dot on a pistol is the lint trap that it is. Freaking nightmare trying to keep it clean. And also for me any little jiggle is magnified x10 vs iron sights. I will keep it on my nightstand pistol but daily carry.... No more.
What’s your thoughts on red dots for something like a church security situation, seems like the likelihood of having to take a longer shot from cover might be a good reason for a red dot?
I suggest training.
Love your integrity to say way you believe. So many gun people just want to sell us more equipment.
Preach Mike. All I’m hearing is how great pistol red dots are and I agree. Problem is none of them are demonstrating multiple concealed carry draws with a red dot. Shirt tail out, sport coat, sitting, standing, laying on your back, laying on your stomach. I just don’t see it with a red dot. That’s the old LEO in me.
How much red dot handgun training did you get during this past year of evaluation?
48 hours hands on.
Do you even support the 2A if your micro pistol doesnt have a threated barrel with silencer, read dot, pistol light and a 30 round stick???
"Put that thing on that thing and press." Good advice for several things.
Press.... the thing
Well said! Irons always have and always will be the way to go in your common close quarters think fast altercations.
What do you recommend for people that have trouble seeing the front sight - especially in less than ideal lighting (besides glasses!)? I Am not beholden to any one idea, just looking for options.
XS Big Dots
@@JamesYeagerofTacticalResponse 'll look into it. Thanks.
So I have a m&p with a rds on I love it but what you said under stress I agree completely. I had crazy night in November someone tried to get in my house bashing the door and such I grabbed my pistol with a rds I have never seen the dot shake so much I’m still guessing from the range I was at I would have hit them if I needed to but it made me second guess the red dot. I love it target shooting but I switched to my Glock 19 for home defense and ccw
I tend to agree Mr Yeager. I have been playing around with the Red dot on pistols for about a year now. Took a class using it also but like you said when you are under stress like a shot timer your perceived proficiency is diminished by that stressor. I'm not saying they are not useful but in my training so far I'm better with my irons. Lastly I do not want the Po Po to have my nice red dot slided pistol in custody God forbid I ever get into a situation. Which brings me to my last point something I think about a lot, your carry pistol should be one that you have come to grips with having it confiscated if you ever had to use it. Good shoot or not from what I have read and heard they police are taking that weapon for a period of time you. Your thoughts?
You should have a backup pistol to carry for when your main pistol gets confiscated. Regardless of whether your main pistol has a red dot or just iron sights, you should have a backup ready to go.
Stephen right on 👌🏽
Thanks James! Been on the fence about getting my slide cut with an rmr cut and a red dot for some time now...I think you just saved me 600.00 - 700.00!!!: ) appreciate all your insight!
Or you could spend 6-700$ on an MOS Pistol and have two
Okay, James. You have forgotten more about guns and shooting in the last month than I have known in a life time. I will follow your advise and do for me what works for me. I am carrying a Sig P320 RX Compact with a Romeo 1, which many may chastise me for, but I have been using and training with it for over two years and I know the Romeo’s many short falls. So, when I come down someday to take your fighting pistol class I am bringing two guns, my EDC CCW P320 RX Compact and my P320 Carry with open sights.
I love this dudes straight forward talk. I’m pretty tired of soft talk and let’s not hurt feelings crap. Good job keeps me listening.
Thank you for the information James. The biggest thing I take away from your videos is you are teaching people to fight and stay alive.
I was shooting with my holosun last weekend 2:30 pm , sunny day, I had the sun slightly at my back and I had the screen of my holosun wash out, with w red haze, couldn't see the dot, couldn't see the suppressor sights, could barley make out the targets. "in the middle of the afternoon! this happened several times. I had to move to the shade toget the sight to clear up. ( nothing wrong with the sight,) I am now rethinking putting a red dot on my carry gun
wow which model
@@---tx9xx 508t
Sure miss James! Iron's are much faster. Defensive hanging employment usually happens in a matter of seconds or less. Point shooting is the natural instinct. Milliseconds Matter 👍
Irons are slower. Look at any metric that measures draw to first shot in a red dot vs irons. Both eyes open, target focused shooting is faster.
I notice you said for concealed carry, would this recommendation still hold true for a duty pistol? I just want to make sure that I don't misunderstand what you are saying.
Finally! Great video 👍
Thank you for your Honesty
What plate carrier or company do you recommend?
Links below every video.
How do you feel about older people or far sited people who have trouble seeing the front post?
Take a class from me.
Ooo, my popcorn is ready...
I have been tentative in carrying my weapon with my red dot. Close range does not matter. Longer range, if my glasses fog up in the humid summer months and I cannot line up even the big dots, I can see the holosun circle and center it over the target. That is what my initial logic tells me, But I still feel more confident with standard sites. Thanks for the vid and your thoughts on the topic.
I have no idea how many rounds RP put through the John Wick gun. That was the first thing he told his mom about Alumni.
James you rock. Appreciate your honesty thanks
I’m on a lot a firearms pages . You are right I see people buying their first pistol. The first thing they do is ask which optic and light do other members recommend. Haven’t even shot the pistol to know if they like it had no training and already wanting to do upgrades.
Like I said a few years ago, buy a Glock instead of a Sig Legion and with the $500 you saved get some training. Buy a holosun instead of a trijicon and you are almost halfway there as well.
If a guy can afford a Sig Legion, he can get the training as well without batting an eye. My boss bought an STI Staccato, a case of ammo and signed up for a class with Baer solutions without stressing over the hit on his wallet. It's what he feels his and his family's life is worth.
Totally agree with you James ... thank you for sharing your opinion awesome video ...
I think the biggest advantage besides NV is the fact dots do not require you to align multiple object at all. If you grew up shooting only dots on pistols you would argue why the hell would anyone use irons on a pistol because you got to align sights. Saying that, I carry a Glock 19 with XS F8 sights because it’s simple and for the distances I hope to use it I don’t need a dot.
You're right. Out of all my friends and family nobody likes shooting the dot. Thought it was going to be great for new shooters. Also different sight picture will slow me down for a second after switching handguns, even though they are the same model gun.
I agree with the “tool of the expert” I know some new shooters with dots and their still just as bad and irons. I saw an advantage for me with a dot. But in my case my carry gun is my competition gun, my work gun is the same gun but with irons. If the students are using irons I use irons, once we as instructors do our proficiency training together my dot comes out. But in the end “you do you” is probably the biggest advice anyone can give. This video made me want to take a trip to TN and take a class ( once this Covid travel restrictions end)
We do classes in other locations.
James Yeager I just saw. Can’t wait for this whole Covid DOD mileage restriction thing 🤦🏽♂️
@@JonGar1911 you really think the DOD is coming after you over mileage? Sounds like excuses to me...
OutlawStar K9 I’m in the Army can’t take leave or passes that far out for mileage. Besides I like my job 😂 once I retire I’ll set my own rules 😂
People are always quick to buy something to add to their gun because they think it will help them shoot better instead of investing into what they REALLY need, which is TRAINING.
It’s more just instinct when you need to shoot in self defense, it’s mind muscle connection from previous training sessions that kick into play, you don’t even need any sights to aim if someone is right in front of you. I even practice shooting from the hip and can hit a bulls eye target from 5 feet
Outstanding
At 2:27 of video "Put the thing on the thing and press the thing" Probably no better explanation of CCW self defense with a firearm.
I hate finding out I am wrong on a topic.... This may turn out to be bigger than your 40 cal stance... Thank you again for your valuable perspective.
I think it’s a personal preference thing, as Mr. Yeager says. I think red dots work great on rifles. But on pistols, in my limited experience, it takes me longer to acquire a sight picture. I’m sure it’s something that you could train around but I’ll stick with my iron sights for pistols.
Have you tried the big dot?
Mario Duncan Excess Big Dot? Yes. I like them. I’ve only tried one pistol with a red dot sight. I just used it as my friend had his set up.
I agree with you. Most of my training came from OSS Fairbairn/Applegate.
Nicely done ✔
I tend to agree..nearly all the things people say dot sights on pistol excel at isn't really necessarily applicable to ccw, or common enough to outweigh the negatives that are more applicable to ccw. I've never met anyone who edc'd nods or needed to make a 75 yard headshot with a pistol.. Most people aren't good enough to take advantage of the advantages anyway, including your boy Vito here..
thanks for the research
More to come.
@@JamesYeagerofTacticalResponse Oh. I was just feeding the algorithm. Thanks for the reply!
As an OG that just started shooting I have some input on this topic. I am cross-eyed dominant, and with prescription glasses for distance and the need for reading glasses a long-gun is manageable, but a handgun is rough. I decided to commit to optical sights on all of my tools. Not just any red dot though. My research shows that a Holographic sight minimizes the parallax error, which _should_ help the close-in accuracy. I will be confirming that theory for myself.
TL;DR I already know that the holographic sight allows me to keep both eyes open.
I wonder why red dots don't work as well when used at close distances?
Good advice.
Miss ya James!
I completely agree with you!!
Thanks again.
So now what am I supposed to do with my 40 caliber 1911 with an RMR and stendo-clip?🤣
So if I understand the message, James Yeager feels if you have to pick between training and the dot to choose training. Also that the recoil causes slower followup shots finding the dot?
NOT if you k ow how to shoot with one
Hope all is well man
Thanks for your fair and balanced reporting. I have red dots on my rifles. I do not feel a need to have them on my hand guns.
Pure Yager, had to laugh; straight up tell it like he has lived it. I am part of crowd that wants to buy new thing to replace my need to practice. This is the Rx I need to hear.
“I mistakenly thought” a man who can admit his mistakes to thousands is a man to listen to. Great video James!
@@Lorenzo_Marchetti4537 Then why don't more people do it?
Great video I keep hearing how much of an advantage red dots were if that was true every law enforcement and soldier in America would have one!
I like this dude. Makes some great points!
I laughed so hard at the ending there.
So far i have never lost my sight picture on my iron sights cuz my battery went dead. Not a fan of red dots either. May change tho when my eyes go south.
My eyes did, red dots don't help, all they do is flare.
After the night vision course in Camden with John Lovell I decided to get a NV capable red dot for a handgun. What holster did you end up with your modern minuteman setup?
Its in the video.
Tried a Romeo on my Sig 365 XL. Took it off after about ten days.
"It all changes after it inverse's itself."
That pretty much says it all. Put someone under pressure and throw adrenaline into the equation a red dot can slow you down getting you killed or injured.
Totally agree , seen a lot of guys trying to John wick it without ever learning the fundamental, and me trying to suggest a different approach and getting that look we old timers get 😐😑😐
that is so true... some people will spend 500 on a red dot but haven't taken a class.. that hit me hard lol
Thanks for saving me money. My old eyes will use big dots.
ok.things to process. you make a point worth thing about.