@activeselfprotection Need opinion on sig p320 x compact read mix reviews but would trust your answer for sure is it safe to carry with one in chamber?
@@killbill7134 I’m not the guy you asked, but while I’ve been skeptical about 320s going off by themselves, this video gave me pause: ua-cam.com/video/FBjo62vSYZk/v-deo.html This guy had a discharge in the holster, at a competition, in front of witnesses. Do with that information as you will…
@@killbill7134 imo they fixed the drop safety problem but they have a second potential issue with the striker reset springs. They seem prone to breaking and could seize the striker in the forward position so dropping the slide can hit the primer. If your striker doesn't protrude I think you should feel ok carrying it. There are a few videos where high round count p320s discharge in holsters and the striker reset spring seems to be a pattern. Sig Mechanics (another UA-camr) has a video on checking the striker reset spring.
Remember when Billy Graham was super awesome? He was then in his later years he said some pretty heretical things. Ken, although not biblically heretical, he does deserve the push back for bad thinking regardless of prior accolades. Simply put Ken needs to be put to pasture. There are far better channels with better knowledge that is well supported. A good example is Brass facts who is well thought out and does a really good job of communicating the reason “why” behind their arguments and then goes and does it.
I wear contact lenses for distance. I wear reading glasses for viewing close objects. With iron sights, if I am not wearing reading glasses, I can see the target well but not my iron sights. If I am wearing my reading glasses, I can see my iron sights well but the target is fuzzy. These problems are completely eliminated with my red dot. I shoot MUCH better with the dot, consistently hitting steel targets at up to 40-50 yards and very accurately at closer distances. For me, the red dot has been a game-changer.
WOW !!! I have the same problem, and I guess MANY of us do. I can either see my sights, OR the target but not both. (wish I had my 20 year old eyes again) Progressive lenses help, but I recently put a "dot" on my Sig, and it's a huge improvement. Be safe. Best to You and Yours.
This is really good info for me. My eyes are getting worth and it’s harder to see the target when focusing on the front sight. I just picked up a p366 xMacro yesterday and it’s optic ready. I’m m going to pick up a Holosun and give it a shot because of your comment.
Just getting into shooting and have glasses (I'm far sighted) and have issues with the iron sights. My issue is I just got a G43X NON MOS so I'm looking for a optic plate that fits the 43x slide w/o sticking out over each side.
Agreed 100%, I wear varifocals, and literally can not shoot properly with iron sights, as focusing on the front sight makes the target and rear sight blur...fortunately my point shooting is good for close range, but I could not hit a target except by luck over 10m away...red dot to the rescue. What a game changer. 🔴 😁
ALWAYS good to see a respectful exchange of views amongst the firearms community. We're a collection of very independent minded folks and the rhetoric and reactions can needlessly get a bit outta hand at times.
I think the main takeaway, choose the platform that fits your needs best. But optics are no fad. Irons will never go away, but optics will only grow in popularity.
Back in the early 70's Jeff Cooper was the "Moses" of the defensive shooting world. Ken came on the scene a few years later as an enthusiastic "Joshua" and blew us all away with his skill and knowledge. He's been a hero and mentor to the shooting world since. I watched his video on red dots, and was reminded that although his knowledge surpasses most of us, he is not infallible. He will most likely be proven wrong about red dots being a "fad", just on the fact that aging eyesight happens. I can't seem to update my eyeglass prescriptions fast enough these days, and the red dot was to me a "cure all". I can find that dot, where it was taking longer for my old eyes to find that front sight. You younger guys might find red dots "easier", but I find them to be life-savers when it comes to hitting accurately. (IMHO)
I'm a 65 year old Optometrist and just a year ago made the move towards red dot - I just find it hard not only to "see" the iron sights but I find it difficult to "find them" LOL. Most wouldn't know it but the ability of the eyes to "scan" as well as "fixate" declines with age. Red dot has been a game changer - the only thing that bums me out is some of my older handguns would need to be milled and nobody around here does it - so at best I'd have to send them off for something like 2 or more months to get the work done.
@@twistedwacko Sorry but that's not what was being discussed. Astigmatism is a completely different issue, and until they find a solution for that then of course you guys and girls need to stick with what works. But for those of us who don't have that issue, the dot is an advantage.
Sorry but as a fair amount of us have that problem then it is part of the discussion! It is a salient point that there are more than a few of us that still and always will rely on irons for just this problem. Just be glad you don't have it or better yet try being cross-eyed dominant that creates it's own set of problems for shooter especially with red dots and iron......welcome to my planet.
@@twistedwacko try the green dot. I have an astigmatism and the green works a lot better. Also you can get that astigmatism corrected with glasses or toric contact lenses.
I recently took a class on precision shooting from the amazing Kaery Dudenhoeffer, and while it can be done with irons, the dot really made it easier (as opposed to working around irons).
The biggest recommendation for a dot is age. I'm old enough that I need a hi-vis front sight just to be able to see it at arms length. Since the dot is effectively focused at infinity, I have no problem putting the dot on the target and keeping them both easily in focus. If you're old enough for reading glasses, you should seriously consider a dot. I still shoot with my hi-vis irons from time to time so as not to lose the skill, but I'm better and faster with my Holosun.
Excellent comments, John! My perspective: I started on irons, but transitioned to the dot. I really prefer it for a few reasons: - Focus: as a person ages, the three focal planes of irons becomes challenging. Even focusing on the front sight can require the tell-tale tilt of the head to get it in focus. With a dot, look at your target, then overlay the dot. One focal plane. - Technique Feedback: when live-firing, the dot bounce can give you a lot of feedback on grip and technique. I use a Mantis X, which gives me an incredible amount of feedback, but seeing what happens to the dot tells me immediately anything wrong. - Target definition: A dot seldom obscures the target (unless you have it set up as a reticle rather than a dot). Properly-aimed irons partially obscure by definition. The downside: - It takes practice to refine the draw so that you see the dot (nearly) every time. - It takes practice to manage the recoil so that the dot stays in the window during the recoil, so that follow-up shot is much faster. But are those REALLY downsides? I don't think so. I think it's more accurate to say that an optic will reveal weaknesses in technique. It sure did for me. I can shoot irons, but my go-to will be optics for everything I shoot. And as far as a fad: that's what they said about radio, TV, cell phones....
I'm in Florida 🏖 . We have hot humid climates 90% of the year. Fog, humidity, A-C etc can cause images from RMRs or SROs, ACROs to have distorted images. I've seen sworn LE officers, retired FBI-HRT guys gripe about rear optics. Florida.
I'd also add one more thing that I realized over time: if God forbid we were ever to need it in a defensive use situation, the instinct is to look at the threat. Focusing on the front sight is counter-intuitive and goes against our instincts. Using a dot plays well with that.
Are there any pistol red dots that you can cowitness irons through like an AR? Or quick disconnect? The only reason i dont use a dot on my EDC is reliability issue. I dont want a dead battery, or fumble with turning it on during the heat of the moment, or it doesnt shake awake etc etc. The irons are always there, 100% reliable, i carry every day and theyve never failed me
Within ten yards, using the profile of the slide can be an extremely fast and accurate sighting system. This technique was developed by Jim Cirillo in actual gunfights and taught extensively to civilians and LE alike. The same can be said of other close-range techniques he developed under fire.
Great response John. Wish our debates in every community was as respectful, informed, and helpful to all involved. I’ve never met Mr. Hackathorn but have several training DVDs of his and have benefited tremendously from his teachings. I’m gun Amish but slowly losing my eyesight and leaning more towards getting optics on my XD-40. All that to say, if you’re looking for a new home for that unloved hellcat, I’m your man. 😁 Soli Deo Gloria!
Go optics, you will never look back! I'm 60, transisioned to optics from irons three years ago. I shoot IPSC competitions and it had made me so confident to make accurate shots. I've never shot so many Alpha's before!
I am no stranger to your channels and have heard you talk about the benefits of having an optic on a pistol numerous times. I decided to give it a try and purchased one. I struggled with it at first but stuck with it. The main issue I had was how I initially had the optic set up. Once I learned how to properly set one up and zero it in (not right on top of the cowitness) it became obvious right away that the optic was a game changer. I shoot at an outdoor range with stations that start at 10 yards and go out to 50. I am happy with how I shoot with the optic at all distances. I am glad that you have done multiple videos on this subject and gave me a reason to stick with it!
Regarding battery-change schedules: A practice I started when I was learning to use cameras effectively (circa 1990) was to change batteries on all my camera bodies on my birthday. The same practice has served me well on lots of other gizmos that use specialty batteries, and I think it would work well on electronic optics (if the batteries last that long).
Shoot for me, I was an irons guy but one day a buddy of mine had a red dot and gave me 2 mags to run it. It was an eye opener no pun intended. I definitely believe it is a vast improvement over irons. The fundamentals are the same but get down faster. The pros I believe fat out way the cons, and for me I would be using backup irons. This is no fad, it is here to stay.
The thing is, if it was a fad then we wouldn't be looking at companies investing in the space. For me thevtipping point was when enclosed emitter dots became available in a footprint that could fit on pistols. Now I have the 509T for the bigger pistol anf the EPSc on the carry piece. I will say it's a bit of a process getting them 100% dialed in but once it's set up I have speed up close and precision at all distances.
My experience was opposite. I didn’t have a red dot but really agreed with all the hype until by buddy let me shoot his Glock with an rmr and I hated it. Absolutely hated it. I’m faster and more accurate with irons, with less bulk in the holster
That comment regarding new shooters is spot on. When I was working the range as a Marine in the 80's it was far, FAR easier to get a someone who'd never touched a firearm in their life to be proficient than try and alter the habits of people who had been hunting and shooting since they could walk.
I worked on the over night shift for 27 years; then I moved to the day shift. I had people ask me how long it took me adjust to such an extreme change in my daily cycle. I told them it took about 3 minutes. I purchased my first two handguns in 1971. I have always hunted small game and whitetail deer with a handgun and have been very successful. About 10 years ago when I got a CPL I started shooting a lot more. Since I started watching ASP, I’m shooting more than ever (and using most of their sponsors). After shooting iron sights for over 50 years, I just switched to optic per-ASP recommendations. Once again, it took me about 3 minutes to adjust to the change; I’ve experienced notable improvement. I love em!
I watched the live stream and thought Ken was really reasonable and made some good points we don't like to think about. I think it's fair to say that the red dot for handguns has been around for decades and is not going away, but how good it is for less thoroughly trained and committed people is more what Ken was questioning. I like this exchange of ideas we're seeing around this though and look forward to more on it.
One of the hardest things for a shooter is getting a honest pro and con of the red dot. All of them stretch it to their way of thinking, while at end of day it's all up to that individual shooter.
I took a stress class with my beretta ltt with a holosun 507c and the optic stopped working halfway through the class , so I had to finish the course with iron sights , the battery tray came lose and went flying at some point in the class , my opinion is train with both , iron and red dot , that way you don’t rely only on one . I kind of freaked out when the red dot stopped working thinking I was not going to be able to pass the course but I finished and pass after I calmed down and went back to the basics .
I just bought my first pistol red dot, Holosun EPS for an M&P Shield Plus. My initial impression was "Wow...I kind of hate this thing. Should I get a refund?" 😆 But I've been dry fire and live fire training with it for two months now, it's grown on me - finding the dot easier. And long distance shots are WAAAY easier with it. I'm a believer. Thanks for the video, John!
As always, very well said. I have utmost respect for the Wilson Combat team. I was in the military for 22 years using only iron sights. Now, at the age of 55, I truly appreciate my Holosun green dot for the one in a trillion precise cranial shot required to end the threat. I am part of a church security program and believe micro, precise shooting in open crowds must be as precise as possible. I practice for those odd shots hoping to never need to perform that task. I also use illuminated SIG BDX optics on my rifle and crossbows and the shooting process is the same concept. I also agree a shooter needs to utilize saving and cash lay-away processes at their local gun shop to get the tools they need.
I have been shooting for about 7 months now. I've only put about 3,500 rounds through my PDP. And of course I've put 500 rounds plus in different types of guns that I've tried to play around with. The first 800 to 1,000 rounds I shot was iron sight. And I didn't do bad but I always shot a little high. Part of that was me learning the hand movements the trigger pull, all of that. And I started being decent with it but I moved to a dot fairly quickly. Part of that was the Wilson combat video that said new shooters do better with dots and acclimate quicker. And have better success overall in some cases. Along with Colin Noir and a few others who spoke highly of the red dots. The day I got the red dot and went to the range, my shooting improved drastically. Just from watching videos and not touching the gun. After I went to the range and actually fired one or two times for 30 minutes each, I was shooting 95% better. My groupings are better. I went from 10 yards to 15, as my standard practice range, and that 15 I'm doing better than I was at 5 after I learned the basics of the iron sights. So I think there's a lot of validity here to the red dot being a better system for new shooters.
Personally I prefer irons, I have Astigmatism and when using a red dot it gets blurry. I shoot both eyes open and have no problem with a fast target acquisition with the first shot in an anatomically significant area.
I have a very inexpensive red dot on my IWI Masada. I bought the Masada because I wanted a red dot. I had a Glock 48 first. I I’ve the red dot. Love it. For accuracy and speed I think it benefits me. But the other day my buddy and I went to the range. He does not run a red dot. We exchanged guns. I ran his iron sight gun pretty good. I don’t think it is a one or the other deal. I think you can be an effective shooter with both.
I have a PDP that was optic ready, and hollow Sun makes an SCS PDP which needs no plate. So I only paid $350 for my optic. The windows a bit smaller than some of them but amazing optic. It's made my shooting game a thousand times better.
Practice with both irons and optics but be careful asking questions about do we really need certain things in our force multipliers. Those are the questions and issues being brought up to restrict our rights to bear arms. God bless you John for always making great content.
I was shooting IPSC in the 90-91 when red dots were first being put on race guns. There weren’t even mounts and we were making the out of aluminum and trying different styles. My first race gun still has one of the first mounts we made. 👍👍😎😎
The one thing nobody ever brings up is that people like myself who need reading glasses. I cannot see the iron sights clearly but I have no problem seeing a red dot. It was an easy transition for me because I never focused on the sight I always focused on the target with both eyes open, so when I picked up a red dot for the first time it was just natural.
Respect both opinions. Been using an optic on one of my EDC for about 9 months now. Picked up presentation and speed quickly probably due to having used and trained with red dots on rifles etc for a longtime. There are still many carry situations where I prefer irons. I continue to see more advantages with a pistol red dot as I get older and the technology gets better.
I was a late adopter of red dots but I’m a believer now. What really changed my mind was when I ran a dot in an advanced defensive pistol class where we were shooting past 20 yards, around obstacles, and in awkward positions. It did take me a lot of dry fire practice to get used acclimated. That said, I still don’t think they’re a MUST have and probably not worth the expense for people who never train. No gizmo is going to ever replace training and practice.
CCW since 2015, 507c since early 2022. I saw a significant improvement in both target acquisition speed and accuracy groups at 10yd, 15yd, 25 yds. I find myself getting frustrated when going back to irons with front sight focus and seeing less of target. Was honestly surprised at ken's reasoning and tone, but at end of the day we gotta do what works best for ourselves.
The greatest boon to the red dot, to me, is the confidence you can have in a genuinely precise zero. Range holds are also easier since you don't have the post obscuring your view. Honestly if more pistols came with good, low profile adjustable rear irons I'm not sure I'd have almost all of my guns set up for dots, but those are really anathema outside of 1911s, revolvers, and those old Smith number gats. Cost is the major limiter as you said, and dots can also limit your concealment depending on your holster and body shape.
As a dinosaur, I came to the dot kicking and screaming. I rarely use my sites at all inside 7 yards unless I am trying for a very small target. Inside 20 feet the irons work fine and I am quick with them. But, because I am a dinosaur, my eyesight isn't what it used to be. In a few classes I took over the last couple months I found I couldn't hit jack outside of 20 feet. I now have dots on my two carry guns. I am still skeptical about super high humidity locations. I will vet one the next time I am hunting pythons in the Everglades. That will be in January. Until then, consider me mostly sold. As always, thanks for the good information!
Shooting a dot torture drill with irons and dots for me is definitely better with the dot, and that’s well within 10 yards (I rarely take it past 5 yards because it gets so frustrating). And if I was ever faced with a hostage situation for my family, I’d definitely prefer the dot any day of the week!
Solid opinion but I deeply appreciate the simplicity and reliability of iron sight shooting that said I strive to master both in certain configurations. I'm great full for options. I recently removed a 507k from a 365 XL because to often the battery was dead or dieing and prefer the constant reliability of iron sights or dot sights which work all the time. Not a dot hater but I do believe they have a space and iron sights will have theirs as well, and I am comfortable with both. Dots are faster but not 💯 Reliable, Yet
Primary and secondary has an excellent podcast on this topic. The panel present shared that iron sights walk loose in their classes at a significantly higher rate than the optics break
Between instructing classes, taking classes and competitions, I personally have rarely seen a quality brand firearm (SIG, HP S&W M&P, FN, HK, Beretta, etc., ) sight's "walk loose". Notice I purposely did NOT reference Glock as their sights DO tend to crack, move, or otherwise suck.
@@ASPextra. Just out of curiosity, how many red dot optics have you had stop working? Apologies if you've already answered that in the video, I have not yet completed watching it. And now... back to the video! :D
As a new green-dot shooter, I agree with John on transition from irons. Admittedly I’ve only got a few thousand rounds with irons, but transition was close to instant. Admittedly my dot got loose in first shooting session, costing me misses and time in competition, however I’d already become confident and competent enough to recognize dot failure and transition to iron after about three shots. I’d say biggest advantage of dots is in target focus. In a defensive encounter awareness of your target is critical, particularly in making shoot/no shoot decisions. Typically many of us less trained individuals (including majority of cops!) focus on target instead of front sight, making misses far more common than desirable. As for driving with a manual transmission - I got my license late and had only trained and practiced with automatics. Transitioned to manual with 20-30 minutes of familiarization before taking licensing test.
Good thoughts. I had some issues transitioning my draw, but otherwise it was terrific. I also agree about defensive encounters: it's going to work WITH your instincts in that your instinct is to focus on the threat. Focusing on the front sight is counter-intuitive move, though it can be trained in.
When I first got into guns, I ran leaf sights on ak and mosins, peep sights on ARs... Peeps were demonstrably better, but I still hated em. Once I got an eotech for my ak and ar, it was like a revelation. I said to my brother "this is so much better, why does anyone even bother with irons?" 14 years later, that same eotech is still trucking, having survived many yeets, falls, battery explosions, and more. I couldn't wait until someone figured out how to do red dots on pistols. The RMR and Aimpoint Micros made it real, and holosun made it affordable. Now I'm happily running my 509T
I think Ken’s vid was brilliant and very much needed. No matter on which side of the debate you fall, one has to respect his balls swimming against this juggernaut of an industry trend. And I would argue that there is no denying that affiliate link money influences influencers
Ken is just a old man n you know they don't care about feelings n are stubborn stuck in their ways but red dot is the present and future. The same way you see them on AR's, Shot guns, SBR's and damn near everything else.
@@ASPextra I believe you and I think that is really great. I also don’t have an issue with gun channels tapping into several monetization streams as long as they are transparent. Just saying that money as an influence shouldn’t be underestimated in this trend. (1) major gun upgrade cycle (optics ready), (2) sales of Reddots at the price of a pistol, (3) Reddot training Courses, (4) suppressor height iron sights allowing to co-witness.
@@waynemensen4252 in the end it comes down to your application and risk appetite. In the woods I want max reliability and no risk of fogged glas, empty battery or breaking the thing while falling over a rock. If in your realistic scenarios those downsides are really outweighed by gaining speed and accuracy at maybe 15 feet and beyond and money is not an issue, reddot it is
Great video response, John. You hit many of the points I would have, and with the same delivery and treatment too. I try and put truth over tribe (something I have learned in part by listening to your arguments) which many times does put us at odds with someone who has a lot of experience and many credentials and titles too (think Massad Ayoob). But as others have already stated, those things don't make you right. In fact, I say that the more an individual relies on their established knowledge and experience and becomes complacent, the less relevant and informed their opinion is. I can't tell you how many times I have argued with my dad over the law only to have him try and finish me with the worthless statement of, "I am an attorney, and you are not." You don't have to have a degree to have a handle on the truth if you can argue why it is so. One of the biggest things that stood out to me in both videos was how many times Ken barrel-flagged his hand, arm, and at one point he even got one of his weapons pointed pretty close to his face. I then watched your video and not ONCE did you do the same thing. This does nothing to settle the argument regarding red dots. But it does tend to tarnish him just a bit as anyone who I would want to seek out as a mentor, trainer, etc. Fundamentals like muzzle discipline get drilled into me constantly by you (thank you for that...seriously) and the fine folks at United Defense Tactical in Costa Mesa, CA where I train weekly (sorry, I love them so much that I HAD to plug them). I think that calling the .40 cal "failed" is also a stretch and might require a bit of crack ingestion to fully believe as well. I could go on and on, but you handled your response beautifully and I agree with each of your points. I used to be a dot-hater. You and Brian Hill made me question this behavior and become much more imperical about the issue. I am transitioning now to a dot on my EDC and training every day with it (I guess that makes me a 1%'er...not the outlaw motorcycle type though--that was hilarious and I love your mind for going there). I love it so far and will continue the journey for certain. I was sold on them on long guns years ago. Your content seems to be getting even more relevant in many ways and I really appreciate the time and energy it takes to run both channels. God bless you and your family, John. I was not able to join you this year at the ANC. But rest assured, I will be there next year.
How about the issue that he brings up about the lens getting fogged up because of hot and cold weather?? and the snow and ice or other falling into the emitter.? Can you share some comments about these issues? Thank you.
Great discussion and well presented. I’m a newer shooter (a few years) with 50 year old eyeballs. Started with a dot pretty quickly in my journey. In back to back steel challenge matches, with pretty similar equipment aside from sight system, I was 50% faster with a dot. Huge difference. I may go back to open sights sometime to see if I can improve my scores, but objectively I’m massively more effective with a dot. NB: Steel Challenge targets are often pretty small and range about 7-35 yards away. Inside 7 yards, the difference is probably smaller as I’m using index and other cues more than sight picture in that range.
I bet you'll find that after awhile using the dot, your iron sighted shooting improves too as you learn to accommodate the sights more and hard front sight focus less.
@@ASPextra Very likely, which is why I’ll eventually revisit production. But I do shoot and train irons side by side with a dot and with a dot I’m a completely different shooter, still.
I started shooting irons in the 70's. Been shooting with , in my case green dots for the last 10 years or so and , I won't have a handgun without one anymore. I just love them. All mine , handguns and rifle's have Holosun's on them. Love Holosun.
Got a Holosun 570 X2 on my Ruger Max9 and am working on becoming proficient with it so that I can switch my EDC from 14 rounds with my LC-9s and a reload to 24 with the Max9 and a reload. Thanks John.
I have been aiming with iron sights since 90s. I begin to like dots recently, but adding an optic is definitely a portion cost of a pistol, especially in California I guess. I probably need to stay with iron sights on most of my guns because convenience and cost.
My thoughts on red dots, and lights, on carry guns is that they add failure points, and possible legal trouble on something that’s supposed to save your life. Shining your weapon light on a non threat, is a legal no no in most states. Most red dots have batteries, that will inevitably fail when you need it most. I don’t really shoot red dots, but the few I picked up in a store and looked at, had me waving the pistol around to find the dot.
I prefer irons. I'm 30 and have been shooting since a kid, dry fire everyday. It takes me longer to find the dot than the irons. After hearing your perspective about small targets at close range I may give them a shot again but idk because I don't want to screw up my muscle memory. My trijicon rmr dot broke inside 1,000 rounds so I took it off and never looked back. That was years ago when the m&p 5 inch performance center 9mm first came out.
My brother, if your struggling finding the dot it’s because your presentation is wrong, if you have changed nothing from your irons shooting technique than this means when you present with iron your sights aren’t aligned either. The red dot simply diagnosis issues you already have and just haven’t been able to visualize. A simple trick is to line up the end plate of your slide directly in line with your nose and you will always be directly behind the sights and thus behind the dot.
If you are a good shooter, and have been for many years, stick to iron, agree with Ken. Just turn 60, got my first hand gun at 14 etc… tough time getting used to the red dot, so keep i going with irons until I can’t… some people adjust better than others, especially the younger shooters. thanks for sharing.
Aaron Cowan over at Sage Dynamics has a white paper on their site advocating for the widespread issuing of dots on LEO handguns. In the paper he details two experiments performed, one on targets at a range and one in scenario training with simunitions, both show fewer misses and more A zone hits with dots regardless of distance. Admittedly these are only two experiments with small sample sizes, so obviously more controlled research would be desirable especially for scenario and force on force work, but between these and the competitive scores you listed, it suggests that there is at least some advantage at anything greater than contact distance (in the scenario training it was frequently the difference between "I did not see my sights" and "I saw the dot," because when startled the eye involuntarily threat-focuses first)
Thx for the info on the paper, will have a read. But in general - given that a police department budget is a zero sum game, wouldn’t your think we would see more bang for the buck in other areas? Especially since we are talking real money buying and maintaining the red dots. More and higher quality Training combined with high quality ammo would probably beat the red dot effect easily in final outcomes
@@nikos6220 The red dot is literally the only way in the pistol world to “buy” skill. Maintaining? Cool I toss a $1.50 battery in my dot every two years and occasionally put some cat crap on my lense to prevent fog. The dot shows me what’s wrong with my trigger press, recoil management, weapon presentation etc. it’s very easy to determine what I did wrong and fix it in the next shot. Besides that a 2 moa dot is much smaller than an 18 moa (or whatever it is) front sight post, allowing for easier precision shots. The dot allows me to stay entirely threat focused. Instead of rear sight >front sight> target> front sight, I simply draw and focus entirely on target and my dot just paints it. It’s legitimately a skill enhancer in a massive way.
@@CertifiedBullpupHater I totally believe that on just pure performance level the red dot is superior given sufficient training. I am talking money here in the context of equipping police as discussed in the original comment - even if there are zero red dots braking or requiring other support (unrealistic) you are still looking at a 2x unit cost based on a cheap Glock or M&P.
@@nikos6220 Yes I understand your point, however especially considering how abysmal most police shooting quals are and how many departments require officers to buy their own ammo I do believe the red dot is a superior purchase. And in my opinion a red dot is way more beneficial than another 1,000 rounds of ammo.
Arguing for or against red dots is like arguing that your sharp stick made from cedar is better than my poplar sharp stick because it smells better... they both work acceptably well and require training to use reliably and proficiently.
I haven't shot as much as either of you. I like both iron and red dot sights. However with aging eye sight the red dot makes hitting what I'm aiming at a lot more accurate and consistent for me. Everyone is different. I'm old, I'm hit'n what I'm aiming at. I'm happy with my red dot.
2 yards 2 shots 2 seconds Don’t need no red dot Check the history of the Seecamp pistol. Ludwig Seecamp said gunfights happen so fast you will not need sights so he designed Seecamp without them. It is a Get Off Me gun. You can step up to a J-frame Smith 38 and it just point shoots so well at close range. I’m with Hackathorne
Your numbers are a bit low...but the thought is relatively the same. I think the numbers (In America) are more like 3-7 yards, 3-7 shots in 3-7 seconds. That probably covers the 95% rule (2 standard deviations) of most DEFENSIVE encounters. We can argue what a defensive encounter is. For instance, IMHO, the Greenwood Mall (Dickens) shooting turned into an OFFENSIVE shooting. Same as the West Freeway Church shooting by Jack Wilson. Both decided that they needed to end the threat by going into offensive mode and taking longer shots to "subdue" the suspect. Interestingly enough, the West Freeway shooting started as a clear defensive shooting opportunity (the first two church member shot) at very close ranges.
oh theres work around for budgeting for an optics. especially for carrying maybe not so much duty but ive had great luck. if ur smart look around for coupon codes. also never thought id say this but those spam emails you get from a company u only order from once 10yrs ago, sends you crazy deals sometimes. especially on holidays. got both the venom and viper each 150 bucks shipped and both still running strong on an mos and saiga 308. palmetto was also getting rid of holosun 507s for about 180bucks shipped. 32 moa circle only tho. hell some companies will allow financing so there are options to get into pistol optics while balling on a budget. its worth it.
This was a good discussion. I am just glad that it didn't devolve into "You're going to DIE if you get into a defensive shooting without an optic" like so many other gun debates do. Personally, I am going to stick with irons for now. I have tens of thousands of rounds behind them and I don't see ENOUGH benefit for my mission to spend the time and money switching over just yet. Although it may change in the future.
I think Ken was making the point that in a stressful situation where the treat is at close range the red dot doesn't come into play. Imagine being rushed and trying to find the dot before you shoot. I agree with Ken on that point.
Ex mil with my entire shooting experience being with iron sights. Earlier this year I got to shoot both a pistol and a rifle mounted with red dots. Back up a bit. I lost the ability to clearly see my front sights in my mid 40s and I adapted by adopting more of a target-oriented focus, inserting my blurred front sight to my point of aim. I wondered if the red dot would make it easier for me. For the rifle? Oh yes it did! For the pistol, I had difficulty finding the dot and ultimately I ended up just referencing the top of the slide. Maybe I would get the hang of it with the pistol if I got more practice. I only shot 150 rounds with each firearm. However, the transition from iron sights to red dot on the rifle was instantaneous.
The third point of contact with the rifle makes it easier for sure. A non issue even. With the pistol it takes a bit of work but you can get it, I promise!
Too many people take extremely strong stances on issues that have no first hand effect on them. Of course a red dot is nice but my biggest challenge isn't shooting accurately it's concealing the gun and the red dot certainly doesn't help me with this.
Would you recommend a three minute or a six minute dot for a defensive pistol? I’ve recently lost most of the sight in my dominant eye, and I think I will probably go with a red dot sight.
Totally personal preference, but with vision loss I would start with the 6MOA as default. If you can, go to a range or store where they have ones you can look through and see what you can see through them before buying.
@@ASPextra and where would I go for that? I live out in a small shoddy town a ways off from anywhere. And nobody I know has ever had any sort of "training".
@ASPextra having a dot is helping me with Muscle memory when it comes to gripping my gun right to Present my dot Correctly for aming which makes me a best shooter
A dot will make your training MORE effective. You can diagnose dot movement much more easily than you can diagnose irons. I can pull a trigger and have it so that to my eye I see no movement in my irons...yet a dot will tell me how much my arms are moving and whether or not I did impart a slight movement here or there. It is also much easier to see your holds, and where you're hitting with a dot. As for what Ken said about people needing lots of time to get used to a dot, I can't agree with that. Dry fire 15 minites per day, working transitions, working your draw, working that presentation, etc it's going to cement the muscle memory for where your body needs to be in order to have the dot show up. I have not found myself search for the dot...ever, and I can even close my eyes and push out to find the dot is sitting there waiting for me. So all in all most of the rounds that I have spent on the dot have just been refining my recoil management even further, fine tuning my grip, stance, and so on. The dot sent me down a rabbit hole of self improvement that irons never could, and if someone doesn't have astigmatism I recommend they try a dot. The new EPSc was a big game changer for me, I finally had something I was willing to put on my EDC setup. I think a lot of people are going to give dots a try now that it exists.
Haha 😂 I love ya John!! I felt the exact same way, sadly there’s a lot of their stuff that seems to be more along the line of “screw advancing” instead of what works best Lol still love Wilson combat tho!!
100% agree. A dot with proper training is superior to iron sights. That being said you should be proficient with irons just for the off chance you have to use a different handgun.
I don't mind proficiency, but can't really imagine a remotely honestly possible scenario when suddenly iron sight proficiency is critical for almost anyone.
I agree 100%. Being a baby (2 years) in terms of shooting, I feel lucky. I immediately took to the dot. It made sense to me. I can shoot irons just fine, I'm just slower. In reverse, I'm playing catch up with leg locks in BJJ. Learning outside of your wheelhouse is uncomfortable. But as they say, "You do you."
I would love to run an optic on my carry gun. But they're so expensive! Even if the optic is more than what I paid for my carry gun do you recommend it? I'm decent with iron sights so is it worth getting fiber optics or night sights?
I'll never put red dot optics on no pistol of mine and yes I am old school iron sights guy but I do like and have a nice red dot optic on my ar9 pcc for those out to say 50 yard shots and no more and I do sport fiber optic front sights on some of my pistols/revolvers and on all of my shotguns and only one 3x9 glass scope on an old Remington rifle !!! It's all personal preference !!!
I think they’re a great addition but definitely not necessary. Elijah Dicken shot the rampage killer 42 yards away with stock iorn sights no problem 8/10 shots on target no formal training. Considering that, it’s just not worth it at this time of my life I can see irons perfectly and hit well enough within 30 yards. Also just as a side note, red dots depending on size and design have gotten caught up from people drawing from concealment
Not to mention, the further away you get, the more liability you have. Each round you send down range that you miss is a potential lawsuit/criminal charge; especially in today's world. Some people will disagree with me, and that's fine. However, there's a difference between shooting at extended distances with a handgun, red dot or not, on a static range or in a real life situation where the threat is shooting back and moving. I would much rather close the distance and take my shots unless that was absolutely not an option.
@@Knight_of_the_Old_Code I totally agree I just made this point because I think that particular instance was sad but impressive at the same time. I give a lot of credit to police, it’s a whole nother ballgame adding the suppression of stress. That’s hard to train for
I loved the video you are referencing and I agree with you in that I don't agree with everything he said but the points he made are good and worth discussing and also it comes from a good place. In all fairness though, at the end of the video, he did not say he thought red dots were a fad. What he said was that it was still too early to tell if this was going to stick around or eventually go away. In that respect I think he is right. While very popular, we are still some ways away form full adoption and you never know if there is something better around the corner waiting to render red dots obsolete. I could be wrong of course but the point is we cannot predict the future.
Both of my dot pistols have very low red dots so my presentation was nearly identical. I found it extremely easy to pickup the dot. I don’t know if I can go back now. I can consistently hit a steel silhouette at 50 yards with a 43x with a 407k. I cannot do that with irons.
I wear tri-focals and struggle with iron sights. I have no problem with my red dot on my carbine. I’m going to start looking into red dots on my pistols.
Thanks for commenting on Ken's video. Glad to hear your opinion too!
Where are the Macro Modules???
@activeselfprotection Need opinion on sig p320 x compact read mix reviews but would trust your answer for sure is it safe to carry with one in chamber?
@@killbill7134 I’m not the guy you asked, but while I’ve been skeptical about 320s going off by themselves, this video gave me pause: ua-cam.com/video/FBjo62vSYZk/v-deo.html This guy had a discharge in the holster, at a competition, in front of witnesses. Do with that information as you will…
@@killbill7134 imo they fixed the drop safety problem but they have a second potential issue with the striker reset springs. They seem prone to breaking and could seize the striker in the forward position so dropping the slide can hit the primer.
If your striker doesn't protrude I think you should feel ok carrying it. There are a few videos where high round count p320s discharge in holsters and the striker reset spring seems to be a pattern.
Sig Mechanics (another UA-camr) has a video on checking the striker reset spring.
Remember when Billy Graham was super awesome? He was then in his later years he said some pretty heretical things.
Ken, although not biblically heretical, he does deserve the push back for bad thinking regardless of prior accolades. Simply put Ken needs to be put to pasture. There are far better channels with better knowledge that is well supported.
A good example is Brass facts who is well thought out and does a really good job of communicating the reason “why” behind their arguments and then goes and does it.
I wear contact lenses for distance. I wear reading glasses for viewing close objects. With iron sights, if I am not wearing reading glasses, I can see the target well but not my iron sights. If I am wearing my reading glasses, I can see my iron sights well but the target is fuzzy. These problems are completely eliminated with my red dot. I shoot MUCH better with the dot, consistently hitting steel targets at up to 40-50 yards and very accurately at closer distances. For me, the red dot has been a game-changer.
WOW !!! I have the same problem, and I guess MANY of us do. I can either see my sights, OR the target but not both. (wish I had my 20 year old eyes again) Progressive lenses help, but I recently put a "dot" on my Sig, and it's a huge improvement. Be safe. Best to You and Yours.
This is really good info for me. My eyes are getting worth and it’s harder to see the target when focusing on the front sight. I just picked up a p366 xMacro yesterday and it’s optic ready. I’m m going to pick up a Holosun and give it a shot because of your comment.
Just getting into shooting and have glasses (I'm far sighted) and have issues with the iron sights. My issue is I just got a G43X NON MOS so I'm looking for a optic plate that fits the 43x slide w/o sticking out over each side.
Agreed 100%, I wear varifocals, and literally can not shoot properly with iron sights, as focusing on the front sight makes the target and rear sight blur...fortunately my point shooting is good for close range, but I could not hit a target except by luck over 10m away...red dot to the rescue.
What a game changer. 🔴 😁
ALWAYS good to see a respectful exchange of views amongst the firearms community. We're a collection of very independent minded folks and the rhetoric and reactions can needlessly get a bit outta hand at times.
I think the main takeaway, choose the platform that fits your needs best. But optics are no fad. Irons will never go away, but optics will only grow in popularity.
Back in the early 70's Jeff Cooper was the "Moses" of the defensive shooting world. Ken came on the scene a few years later as an enthusiastic "Joshua" and blew us all away with his skill and knowledge. He's been a hero and mentor to the shooting world since. I watched his video on red dots, and was reminded that although his knowledge surpasses most of us, he is not infallible. He will most likely be proven wrong about red dots being a "fad", just on the fact that aging eyesight happens. I can't seem to update my eyeglass prescriptions fast enough these days, and the red dot was to me a "cure all". I can find that dot, where it was taking longer for my old eyes to find that front sight. You younger guys might find red dots "easier", but I find them to be life-savers when it comes to hitting accurately. (IMHO)
I'm a 65 year old Optometrist and just a year ago made the move towards red dot - I just find it hard not only to "see" the iron sights but I find it difficult to "find them" LOL. Most wouldn't know it but the ability of the eyes to "scan" as well as "fixate" declines with age. Red dot has been a game changer - the only thing that bums me out is some of my older handguns would need to be milled and nobody around here does it - so at best I'd have to send them off for something like 2 or more months to get the work done.
Sorry as one with astigmatism the dot looks to me more like a star or a blob. I'll stay with irons I can at least see them.
@@twistedwacko Sorry but that's not what was being discussed. Astigmatism is a completely different issue, and until they find a solution for that then of course you guys and girls need to stick with what works. But for those of us who don't have that issue, the dot is an advantage.
Sorry but as a fair amount of us have that problem then it is part of the discussion! It is a salient point that there are more than a few of us that still and always will rely on irons for just this problem. Just be glad you don't have it or better yet try being cross-eyed dominant that creates it's own set of problems for shooter especially with red dots and iron......welcome to my planet.
@@twistedwacko try the green dot. I have an astigmatism and the green works a lot better. Also you can get that astigmatism corrected with glasses or toric contact lenses.
John, best tip I've received yet. 40 years over irons, jumped the fence a month ago. "Focus on target, let the dot go there and press"👏🤝👍
I recently took a class on precision shooting from the amazing Kaery Dudenhoeffer, and while it can be done with irons, the dot really made it easier (as opposed to working around irons).
@@ArpRLB couldn't agree more Richard👍
The biggest recommendation for a dot is age. I'm old enough that I need a hi-vis front sight just to be able to see it at arms length. Since the dot is effectively focused at infinity, I have no problem putting the dot on the target and keeping them both easily in focus.
If you're old enough for reading glasses, you should seriously consider a dot. I still shoot with my hi-vis irons from time to time so as not to lose the skill, but I'm better and faster with my Holosun.
Excellent comments, John! My perspective:
I started on irons, but transitioned to the dot. I really prefer it for a few reasons:
- Focus: as a person ages, the three focal planes of irons becomes challenging. Even focusing on the front sight can require the tell-tale tilt of the head to get it in focus. With a dot, look at your target, then overlay the dot. One focal plane.
- Technique Feedback: when live-firing, the dot bounce can give you a lot of feedback on grip and technique. I use a Mantis X, which gives me an incredible amount of feedback, but seeing what happens to the dot tells me immediately anything wrong.
- Target definition: A dot seldom obscures the target (unless you have it set up as a reticle rather than a dot). Properly-aimed irons partially obscure by definition.
The downside:
- It takes practice to refine the draw so that you see the dot (nearly) every time.
- It takes practice to manage the recoil so that the dot stays in the window during the recoil, so that follow-up shot is much faster.
But are those REALLY downsides? I don't think so. I think it's more accurate to say that an optic will reveal weaknesses in technique. It sure did for me.
I can shoot irons, but my go-to will be optics for everything I shoot.
And as far as a fad: that's what they said about radio, TV, cell phones....
I'm in Florida 🏖 . We have hot humid climates 90% of the year. Fog, humidity, A-C etc can cause images from RMRs or SROs, ACROs to have distorted images. I've seen sworn LE officers, retired FBI-HRT guys gripe about rear optics. Florida.
I'd also add one more thing that I realized over time: if God forbid we were ever to need it in a defensive use situation, the instinct is to look at the threat. Focusing on the front sight is counter-intuitive and goes against our instincts. Using a dot plays well with that.
Are there any pistol red dots that you can cowitness irons through like an AR? Or quick disconnect?
The only reason i dont use a dot on my EDC is reliability issue. I dont want a dead battery, or fumble with turning it on during the heat of the moment, or it doesnt shake awake etc etc. The irons are always there, 100% reliable, i carry every day and theyve never failed me
Within ten yards, using the profile of the slide can be an extremely fast and accurate sighting system. This technique was developed by Jim Cirillo in actual gunfights and taught extensively to civilians and LE alike. The same can be said of other close-range techniques he developed under fire.
Great response John. Wish our debates in every community was as respectful, informed, and helpful to all involved. I’ve never met Mr. Hackathorn but have several training DVDs of his and have benefited tremendously from his teachings.
I’m gun Amish but slowly losing my eyesight and leaning more towards getting optics on my XD-40. All that to say, if you’re looking for a new home for that unloved hellcat, I’m your man. 😁 Soli Deo Gloria!
Go optics, you will never look back! I'm 60, transisioned to optics from irons three years ago. I shoot IPSC competitions and it had made me so confident to make accurate shots. I've never shot so many Alpha's before!
I’m relatively new with a red dot on my CCW. It has definitely slowed down my target acquisition compared to irons. I am working on it
I am no stranger to your channels and have heard you talk about the benefits of having an optic on a pistol numerous times. I decided to give it a try and purchased one. I struggled with it at first but stuck with it. The main issue I had was how I initially had the optic set up. Once I learned how to properly set one up and zero it in (not right on top of the cowitness) it became obvious right away that the optic was a game changer. I shoot at an outdoor range with stations that start at 10 yards and go out to 50. I am happy with how I shoot with the optic at all distances. I am glad that you have done multiple videos on this subject and gave me a reason to stick with it!
Regarding battery-change schedules: A practice I started when I was learning to use cameras effectively (circa 1990) was to change batteries on all my camera bodies on my birthday. The same practice has served me well on lots of other gizmos that use specialty batteries, and I think it would work well on electronic optics (if the batteries last that long).
Yep. John has said the same in a number of videos. Good bookmark.
Shoot for me, I was an irons guy but one day a buddy of mine had a red dot and gave me 2 mags to run it. It was an eye opener no pun intended. I definitely believe it is a vast improvement over irons. The fundamentals are the same but get down faster. The pros I believe fat out way the cons, and for me I would be using backup irons. This is no fad, it is here to stay.
The thing is, if it was a fad then we wouldn't be looking at companies investing in the space. For me thevtipping point was when enclosed emitter dots became available in a footprint that could fit on pistols. Now I have the 509T for the bigger pistol anf the EPSc on the carry piece. I will say it's a bit of a process getting them 100% dialed in but once it's set up I have speed up close and precision at all distances.
My experience was opposite. I didn’t have a red dot but really agreed with all the hype until by buddy let me shoot his Glock with an rmr and I hated it. Absolutely hated it. I’m faster and more accurate with irons, with less bulk in the holster
That comment regarding new shooters is spot on. When I was working the range as a Marine in the 80's it was far, FAR easier to get a someone who'd never touched a firearm in their life to be proficient than try and alter the habits of people who had been hunting and shooting since they could walk.
I worked on the over night shift for 27 years; then I moved to the day shift. I had people ask me how long it took me adjust to such an extreme change in my daily cycle. I told them it took about 3 minutes. I purchased my first two handguns in 1971. I have always hunted small game and whitetail deer with a handgun and have been very successful. About 10 years ago when I got a CPL I started shooting a lot more. Since I started watching ASP, I’m shooting more than ever (and using most of their sponsors). After shooting iron sights for over 50 years, I just switched to optic per-ASP recommendations. Once again, it took me about 3 minutes to adjust to the change; I’ve experienced notable improvement. I love em!
I watched the live stream and thought Ken was really reasonable and made some good points we don't like to think about. I think it's fair to say that the red dot for handguns has been around for decades and is not going away, but how good it is for less thoroughly trained and committed people is more what Ken was questioning. I like this exchange of ideas we're seeing around this though and look forward to more on it.
One of the hardest things for a shooter is getting a honest pro and con of the red dot. All of them stretch it to their way of thinking, while at end of day it's all up to that individual shooter.
I took a stress class with my beretta ltt with a holosun 507c and the optic stopped working halfway through the class , so I had to finish the course with iron sights , the battery tray came lose and went flying at some point in the class , my opinion is train with both , iron and red dot , that way you don’t rely only on one . I kind of freaked out when the red dot stopped working thinking I was not going to be able to pass the course but I finished and pass after I calmed down and went back to the basics .
I just bought my first pistol red dot, Holosun EPS for an M&P Shield Plus. My initial impression was "Wow...I kind of hate this thing. Should I get a refund?" 😆 But I've been dry fire and live fire training with it for two months now, it's grown on me - finding the dot easier. And long distance shots are WAAAY easier with it. I'm a believer. Thanks for the video, John!
As always, very well said. I have utmost respect for the Wilson Combat team. I was in the military for 22 years using only iron sights. Now, at the age of 55, I truly appreciate my Holosun green dot for the one in a trillion precise cranial shot required to end the threat. I am part of a church security program and believe micro, precise shooting in open crowds must be as precise as possible. I practice for those odd shots hoping to never need to perform that task. I also use illuminated SIG BDX optics on my rifle and crossbows and the shooting process is the same concept. I also agree a shooter needs to utilize saving and cash lay-away processes at their local gun shop to get the tools they need.
Lots of great ideas in this video. My EDC is not optics ready and I am not in the position to simply change that. I'm stuck using irons by necessity.
I have been shooting for about 7 months now. I've only put about 3,500 rounds through my PDP. And of course I've put 500 rounds plus in different types of guns that I've tried to play around with.
The first 800 to 1,000 rounds I shot was iron sight. And I didn't do bad but I always shot a little high. Part of that was me learning the hand movements the trigger pull, all of that. And I started being decent with it but I moved to a dot fairly quickly.
Part of that was the Wilson combat video that said new shooters do better with dots and acclimate quicker. And have better success overall in some cases. Along with Colin Noir and a few others who spoke highly of the red dots.
The day I got the red dot and went to the range, my shooting improved drastically. Just from watching videos and not touching the gun. After I went to the range and actually fired one or two times for 30 minutes each, I was shooting 95% better. My groupings are better. I went from 10 yards to 15, as my standard practice range, and that 15 I'm doing better than I was at 5 after I learned the basics of the iron sights.
So I think there's a lot of validity here to the red dot being a better system for new shooters.
Personally I prefer irons, I have Astigmatism and when using a red dot it gets blurry. I shoot both eyes open and have no problem with a fast target acquisition with the first shot in an anatomically significant area.
As someone with astigmatism, try the Holosun circle only. I found the problem disappears.
Even with brutal astigmatism the dot is gonna be smaller MOA than a front sight post.
@Brian W , Green dots (vs red) help with this as well.
I have a very inexpensive red dot on my IWI Masada. I bought the Masada because I wanted a red dot. I had a Glock 48 first. I I’ve the red dot. Love it. For accuracy and speed I think it benefits me. But the other day my buddy and I went to the range. He does not run a red dot. We exchanged guns. I ran his iron sight gun pretty good. I don’t think it is a one or the other deal. I think you can be an effective shooter with both.
I have a PDP that was optic ready, and hollow Sun makes an SCS PDP which needs no plate. So I only paid $350 for my optic. The windows a bit smaller than some of them but amazing optic. It's made my shooting game a thousand times better.
Practice with both irons and optics but be careful asking questions about do we really need certain things in our force multipliers. Those are the questions and issues being brought up to restrict our rights to bear arms. God bless you John for always making great content.
I was shooting IPSC in the 90-91 when red dots were first being put on race guns. There weren’t even mounts and we were making the out of aluminum and trying different styles. My first race gun still has one of the first mounts we made. 👍👍😎😎
The one thing nobody ever brings up is that people like myself who need reading glasses. I cannot see the iron sights clearly but I have no problem seeing a red dot. It was an easy transition for me because I never focused on the sight I always focused on the target with both eyes open, so when I picked up a red dot for the first time it was just natural.
Respect both opinions. Been using an optic on one of my EDC for about 9 months now. Picked up presentation and speed quickly probably due to having used and trained with red dots on rifles etc for a longtime. There are still many carry situations where I prefer irons. I continue to see more advantages with a pistol red dot as I get older and the technology gets better.
I was a late adopter of red dots but I’m a believer now. What really changed my mind was when I ran a dot in an advanced defensive pistol class where we were shooting past 20 yards, around obstacles, and in awkward positions. It did take me a lot of dry fire practice to get used acclimated. That said, I still don’t think they’re a MUST have and probably not worth the expense for people who never train. No gizmo is going to ever replace training and practice.
CCW since 2015, 507c since early 2022. I saw a significant improvement in both target acquisition speed and accuracy groups at 10yd, 15yd, 25 yds.
I find myself getting frustrated when going back to irons with front sight focus and seeing less of target.
Was honestly surprised at ken's reasoning and tone, but at end of the day we gotta do what works best for ourselves.
The greatest boon to the red dot, to me, is the confidence you can have in a genuinely precise zero. Range holds are also easier since you don't have the post obscuring your view.
Honestly if more pistols came with good, low profile adjustable rear irons I'm not sure I'd have almost all of my guns set up for dots, but those are really anathema outside of 1911s, revolvers, and those old Smith number gats.
Cost is the major limiter as you said, and dots can also limit your concealment depending on your holster and body shape.
Good breakdown
As a dinosaur, I came to the dot kicking and screaming.
I rarely use my sites at all inside 7 yards unless I am trying for a very small target. Inside 20 feet the irons work fine and I am quick with them.
But, because I am a dinosaur, my eyesight isn't what it used to be. In a few classes I took over the last couple months I found I couldn't hit jack outside of 20 feet. I now have dots on my two carry guns.
I am still skeptical about super high humidity locations. I will vet one the next time I am hunting pythons in the Everglades. That will be in January. Until then, consider me mostly sold.
As always, thanks for the good information!
Shooting a dot torture drill with irons and dots for me is definitely better with the dot, and that’s well within 10 yards (I rarely take it past 5 yards because it gets so frustrating). And if I was ever faced with a hostage situation for my family, I’d definitely prefer the dot any day of the week!
I was thinking about DT today and how that shows close work with a dot is easier on small targets as well. :) Good call!
Solid opinion but I deeply appreciate the simplicity and reliability of iron sight shooting that said I strive to master both in certain configurations. I'm great full for options. I recently removed a 507k from a 365 XL because to often the battery was dead or dieing and prefer the constant reliability of iron sights or dot sights which work all the time. Not a dot hater but I do believe they have a space and iron sights will have theirs as well, and I am comfortable with both. Dots are faster but not 💯 Reliable, Yet
Primary and secondary has an excellent podcast on this topic. The panel present shared that iron sights walk loose in their classes at a significantly higher rate than the optics break
Between instructing classes, taking classes and competitions, I personally have rarely seen a quality brand firearm (SIG, HP S&W M&P, FN, HK, Beretta, etc., ) sight's "walk loose". Notice I purposely did NOT reference Glock as their sights DO tend to crack, move, or otherwise suck.
I have had two P30 front sights walk out.
@@ASPextra. Just out of curiosity, how many red dot optics have you had stop working? Apologies if you've already answered that in the video, I have not yet completed watching it. And now... back to the video! :D
Nonsense
@@jyankowsky don’t reply to me, write the presenter of primary and secondary a letter.
Great content as always.
Glad you think so!
Your videos are invaluable, thanks John!
Glad you think so!
As a new green-dot shooter, I agree with John on transition from irons. Admittedly I’ve only got a few thousand rounds with irons, but transition was close to instant. Admittedly my dot got loose in first shooting session, costing me misses and time in competition, however I’d already become confident and competent enough to recognize dot failure and transition to iron after about three shots.
I’d say biggest advantage of dots is in target focus. In a defensive encounter awareness of your target is critical, particularly in making shoot/no shoot decisions. Typically many of us less trained individuals (including majority of cops!) focus on target instead of front sight, making misses far more common than desirable.
As for driving with a manual transmission - I got my license late and had only trained and practiced with automatics. Transitioned to manual with 20-30 minutes of familiarization before taking licensing test.
Good thoughts. I had some issues transitioning my draw, but otherwise it was terrific. I also agree about defensive encounters: it's going to work WITH your instincts in that your instinct is to focus on the threat. Focusing on the front sight is counter-intuitive move, though it can be trained in.
@@ArpRLB Exactly right. Plus the many videos on the main channel show how important target focus is.
When I first got into guns, I ran leaf sights on ak and mosins, peep sights on ARs... Peeps were demonstrably better, but I still hated em. Once I got an eotech for my ak and ar, it was like a revelation. I said to my brother "this is so much better, why does anyone even bother with irons?" 14 years later, that same eotech is still trucking, having survived many yeets, falls, battery explosions, and more. I couldn't wait until someone figured out how to do red dots on pistols. The RMR and Aimpoint Micros made it real, and holosun made it affordable. Now I'm happily running my 509T
Great video and I love the final point.
I think Ken’s vid was brilliant and very much needed. No matter on which side of the debate you fall, one has to respect his balls swimming against this juggernaut of an industry trend. And I would argue that there is no denying that affiliate link money influences influencers
Ken is just a old man n you know they don't care about feelings n are stubborn stuck in their ways but red dot is the present and future. The same way you see them on AR's, Shot guns, SBR's and damn near everything else.
I have zero affiliate money coming in anything from this issue, and have no relationship with any company producing optics.
@@ASPextra I believe you and I think that is really great.
I also don’t have an issue with gun channels tapping into several monetization streams as long as they are transparent.
Just saying that money as an influence shouldn’t be underestimated in this trend. (1) major gun upgrade cycle (optics ready), (2) sales of Reddots at the price of a pistol, (3) Reddot training Courses, (4) suppressor height iron sights allowing to co-witness.
@@waynemensen4252 in the end it comes down to your application and risk appetite.
In the woods I want max reliability and no risk of fogged glas, empty battery or breaking the thing while falling over a rock.
If in your realistic scenarios those downsides are really outweighed by gaining speed and accuracy at maybe 15 feet and beyond and money is not an issue, reddot it is
Niko, financial transparency is not just a good idea. It's not just ethical. It's the law.
Great video response, John. You hit many of the points I would have, and with the same delivery and treatment too. I try and put truth over tribe (something I have learned in part by listening to your arguments) which many times does put us at odds with someone who has a lot of experience and many credentials and titles too (think Massad Ayoob). But as others have already stated, those things don't make you right. In fact, I say that the more an individual relies on their established knowledge and experience and becomes complacent, the less relevant and informed their opinion is. I can't tell you how many times I have argued with my dad over the law only to have him try and finish me with the worthless statement of, "I am an attorney, and you are not." You don't have to have a degree to have a handle on the truth if you can argue why it is so. One of the biggest things that stood out to me in both videos was how many times Ken barrel-flagged his hand, arm, and at one point he even got one of his weapons pointed pretty close to his face. I then watched your video and not ONCE did you do the same thing. This does nothing to settle the argument regarding red dots. But it does tend to tarnish him just a bit as anyone who I would want to seek out as a mentor, trainer, etc. Fundamentals like muzzle discipline get drilled into me constantly by you (thank you for that...seriously) and the fine folks at United Defense Tactical in Costa Mesa, CA where I train weekly (sorry, I love them so much that I HAD to plug them). I think that calling the .40 cal "failed" is also a stretch and might require a bit of crack ingestion to fully believe as well. I could go on and on, but you handled your response beautifully and I agree with each of your points. I used to be a dot-hater. You and Brian Hill made me question this behavior and become much more imperical about the issue. I am transitioning now to a dot on my EDC and training every day with it (I guess that makes me a 1%'er...not the outlaw motorcycle type though--that was hilarious and I love your mind for going there). I love it so far and will continue the journey for certain. I was sold on them on long guns years ago. Your content seems to be getting even more relevant in many ways and I really appreciate the time and energy it takes to run both channels. God bless you and your family, John. I was not able to join you this year at the ANC. But rest assured, I will be there next year.
Fantastic and very respectful presentation. You might have persuaded me to start looking into dots… finally 😂
Getting mine in the mail soon but have to get it directly mounted to the slide as that'll be another delay. Looking forward to it all the same.
Two hours with AJ Zito got me squared away on the RDS. Thanks for the referral, John!
He's a PHENOMENAL instructor. Glad you got to train with him!
Thanks for chiming in with your considered opinion. Good analogy to learning a manual transmission.
Great video! 👍
How about the issue that he brings up about the lens getting fogged up because of hot and cold weather?? and the snow and ice or other falling into the emitter.? Can you share some comments about these issues? Thank you.
Well and respectfully said. Nice.
Thank you for your insights.
Great discussion and well presented. I’m a newer shooter (a few years) with 50 year old eyeballs. Started with a dot pretty quickly in my journey. In back to back steel challenge matches, with pretty similar equipment aside from sight system, I was 50% faster with a dot. Huge difference. I may go back to open sights sometime to see if I can improve my scores, but objectively I’m massively more effective with a dot. NB: Steel Challenge targets are often pretty small and range about 7-35 yards away. Inside 7 yards, the difference is probably smaller as I’m using index and other cues more than sight picture in that range.
I bet you'll find that after awhile using the dot, your iron sighted shooting improves too as you learn to accommodate the sights more and hard front sight focus less.
@@ASPextra Very likely, which is why I’ll eventually revisit production. But I do shoot and train irons side by side with a dot and with a dot I’m a completely different shooter, still.
I am an all the dot, all the time guy myself, so I get it!
I started shooting irons in the 70's. Been shooting with , in my case green dots for the last 10 years or so and , I won't have a handgun without one anymore. I just love them. All mine , handguns and rifle's have Holosun's on them. Love Holosun.
Got a Holosun 570 X2 on my Ruger Max9 and am working on becoming proficient with it so that I can switch my EDC from 14 rounds with my LC-9s and a reload to 24 with the Max9 and a reload. Thanks John.
On a range toy, yes. On a dedicated defense use gun, absolutely not.
I'm with you on that..batteries wear out..if you drop the gun in a scuffle it breaks..uspca competitions aren't real life..targets don't shoot back
25 yards is not very far
Worth considering and practicing
I got a HK VP9 Tactical. I got it so, I can mount a red dot on it without have to pay to mil it. Can't wait until my Holosun red dot comes.
I have been aiming with iron sights since 90s. I begin to like dots recently, but adding an optic is definitely a portion cost of a pistol, especially in California I guess. I probably need to stay with iron sights on most of my guns because convenience and cost.
My thoughts on red dots, and lights, on carry guns is that they add failure points, and possible legal trouble on something that’s supposed to save your life. Shining your weapon light on a non threat, is a legal no no in most states. Most red dots have batteries, that will inevitably fail when you need it most. I don’t really shoot red dots, but the few I picked up in a store and looked at, had me waving the pistol around to find the dot.
I think your disdain for pistol mounted optics is misplaced in 2023.
I prefer irons. I'm 30 and have been shooting since a kid, dry fire everyday. It takes me longer to find the dot than the irons. After hearing your perspective about small targets at close range I may give them a shot again but idk because I don't want to screw up my muscle memory. My trijicon rmr dot broke inside 1,000 rounds so I took it off and never looked back. That was years ago when the m&p 5 inch performance center 9mm first came out.
My brother, if your struggling finding the dot it’s because your presentation is wrong, if you have changed nothing from your irons shooting technique than this means when you present with iron your sights aren’t aligned either. The red dot simply diagnosis issues you already have and just haven’t been able to visualize. A simple trick is to line up the end plate of your slide directly in line with your nose and you will always be directly behind the sights and thus behind the dot.
@@CertifiedBullpupHaterthe dot is taller than irons so you have to adjust your presentation to be able to find the dot...
If you are a good shooter, and have been for many years, stick to iron, agree with Ken. Just turn 60, got my first hand gun at 14 etc… tough time getting used to the red dot, so keep i going with irons until I can’t… some people adjust better than others, especially the younger shooters. thanks for sharing.
I think it all comes down to get what you want or what you're comfortable with, and train extensively.
Aaron Cowan over at Sage Dynamics has a white paper on their site advocating for the widespread issuing of dots on LEO handguns. In the paper he details two experiments performed, one on targets at a range and one in scenario training with simunitions, both show fewer misses and more A zone hits with dots regardless of distance.
Admittedly these are only two experiments with small sample sizes, so obviously more controlled research would be desirable especially for scenario and force on force work, but between these and the competitive scores you listed, it suggests that there is at least some advantage at anything greater than contact distance (in the scenario training it was frequently the difference between "I did not see my sights" and "I saw the dot," because when startled the eye involuntarily threat-focuses first)
Thx for the info on the paper, will have a read.
But in general - given that a police department budget is a zero sum game, wouldn’t your think we would see more bang for the buck in other areas? Especially since we are talking real money buying and maintaining the red dots.
More and higher quality Training combined with high quality ammo would probably beat the red dot effect easily in final outcomes
@@nikos6220 The red dot is literally the only way in the pistol world to “buy” skill. Maintaining? Cool I toss a $1.50 battery in my dot every two years and occasionally put some cat crap on my lense to prevent fog. The dot shows me what’s wrong with my trigger press, recoil management, weapon presentation etc. it’s very easy to determine what I did wrong and fix it in the next shot. Besides that a 2 moa dot is much smaller than an 18 moa (or whatever it is) front sight post, allowing for easier precision shots. The dot allows me to stay entirely threat focused. Instead of rear sight >front sight> target> front sight, I simply draw and focus entirely on target and my dot just paints it. It’s legitimately a skill enhancer in a massive way.
@@CertifiedBullpupHater I totally believe that on just pure performance level the red dot is superior given sufficient training.
I am talking money here in the context of equipping police as discussed in the original comment - even if there are zero red dots braking or requiring other support (unrealistic) you are still looking at a 2x unit cost based on a cheap Glock or M&P.
@@nikos6220 Yes I understand your point, however especially considering how abysmal most police shooting quals are and how many departments require officers to buy their own ammo I do believe the red dot is a superior purchase. And in my opinion a red dot is way more beneficial than another 1,000 rounds of ammo.
Arguing for or against red dots is like arguing that your sharp stick made from cedar is better than my poplar sharp stick because it smells better... they both work acceptably well and require training to use reliably and proficiently.
Good points. There is the Concealability too.
For most, the footprint of the optic doesn’t affect concealment much. Grip length is a bigger factor. For some it can be an issue though.
Item was as described and arrived in excellent condition
Solid, John. Thanks.
I haven't shot as much as either of you. I like both iron and red dot sights. However with aging eye sight the red dot makes hitting what I'm aiming at a lot more accurate and consistent for me. Everyone is different. I'm old, I'm hit'n what I'm aiming at. I'm happy with my red dot.
2 yards
2 shots
2 seconds
Don’t need no red dot
Check the history of the Seecamp pistol. Ludwig Seecamp said gunfights happen so fast you will not need sights so he designed Seecamp without them. It is a Get Off Me gun. You can step up to a J-frame Smith 38 and it just point shoots so well at close range. I’m with Hackathorne
Your numbers are a bit low...but the thought is relatively the same. I think the numbers (In America) are more like 3-7 yards, 3-7 shots in 3-7 seconds. That probably covers the 95% rule (2 standard deviations) of most DEFENSIVE encounters. We can argue what a defensive encounter is. For instance, IMHO, the Greenwood Mall (Dickens) shooting turned into an OFFENSIVE shooting. Same as the West Freeway Church shooting by Jack Wilson. Both decided that they needed to end the threat by going into offensive mode and taking longer shots to "subdue" the suspect. Interestingly enough, the West Freeway shooting started as a clear defensive shooting opportunity (the first two church member shot) at very close ranges.
Great video John! As a new to red dot guy, I’m more excited to shoot with the dot. I’m more accurate, faster and it’s just plain more fun.
oh theres work around for budgeting for an optics. especially for carrying maybe not so much duty but ive had great luck. if ur smart look around for coupon codes. also never thought id say this but those spam emails you get from a company u only order from once 10yrs ago, sends you crazy deals sometimes. especially on holidays. got both the venom and viper each 150 bucks shipped and both still running strong on an mos and saiga 308. palmetto was also getting rid of holosun 507s for about 180bucks shipped. 32 moa circle only tho. hell some companies will allow financing so there are options to get into pistol optics while balling on a budget. its worth it.
This was a good discussion. I am just glad that it didn't devolve into "You're going to DIE if you get into a defensive shooting without an optic" like so many other gun debates do.
Personally, I am going to stick with irons for now. I have tens of thousands of rounds behind them and I don't see ENOUGH benefit for my mission to spend the time and money switching over just yet. Although it may change in the future.
Does it really take 20mins to answer this question?
I think Ken was making the point that in a stressful situation where the treat is at close range the red dot doesn't come into play. Imagine being rushed and trying to find the dot before you shoot. I agree with Ken on that point.
Great video very informative. I'm just starting with a dot. Always had bad eyes but dot certainly helps me alot. Thanks
Ex mil with my entire shooting experience being with iron sights. Earlier this year I got to shoot both a pistol and a rifle mounted with red dots. Back up a bit. I lost the ability to clearly see my front sights in my mid 40s and I adapted by adopting more of a target-oriented focus, inserting my blurred front sight to my point of aim. I wondered if the red dot would make it easier for me. For the rifle? Oh yes it did! For the pistol, I had difficulty finding the dot and ultimately I ended up just referencing the top of the slide. Maybe I would get the hang of it with the pistol if I got more practice. I only shot 150 rounds with each firearm. However, the transition from iron sights to red dot on the rifle was instantaneous.
The third point of contact with the rifle makes it easier for sure. A non issue even. With the pistol it takes a bit of work but you can get it, I promise!
Awesome videos thanks
Too many people take extremely strong stances on issues that have no first hand effect on them. Of course a red dot is nice but my biggest challenge isn't shooting accurately it's concealing the gun and the red dot certainly doesn't help me with this.
Would you recommend a three minute or a six minute dot for a defensive pistol? I’ve recently lost most of the sight in my dominant eye, and I think I will probably go with a red dot sight.
Totally personal preference, but with vision loss I would start with the 6MOA as default. If you can, go to a range or store where they have ones you can look through and see what you can see through them before buying.
I got a red dot but couldn't hit shit with it, so eventually I just took it off.
Did you get any training with that dot?
@@ASPextra and where would I go for that? I live out in a small shoddy town a ways off from anywhere. And nobody I know has ever had any sort of "training".
Well, you *could* search the channel here for red dot skills.
Or, you know, actually travel a little to take an in-person class. It's allowed.
great point good video from a first time dot owner
Glad you got something out of it!
@ASPextra having a dot is helping me with Muscle
memory when it comes to gripping my gun right to Present my dot
Correctly for aming which makes me a best shooter
Instead of closing one eye trying to look down my iron sites I can keep both eyes open and focus more on being faster with my gun aming and shooting
The training/practice factor is huge. Something to really think about.
I really think it's not what he says it is. Any pistol takes training to use proficiently.
A dot will make your training MORE effective. You can diagnose dot movement much more easily than you can diagnose irons. I can pull a trigger and have it so that to my eye I see no movement in my irons...yet a dot will tell me how much my arms are moving and whether or not I did impart a slight movement here or there. It is also much easier to see your holds, and where you're hitting with a dot.
As for what Ken said about people needing lots of time to get used to a dot, I can't agree with that. Dry fire 15 minites per day, working transitions, working your draw, working that presentation, etc it's going to cement the muscle memory for where your body needs to be in order to have the dot show up. I have not found myself search for the dot...ever, and I can even close my eyes and push out to find the dot is sitting there waiting for me. So all in all most of the rounds that I have spent on the dot have just been refining my recoil management even further, fine tuning my grip, stance, and so on. The dot sent me down a rabbit hole of self improvement that irons never could, and if someone doesn't have astigmatism I recommend they try a dot.
The new EPSc was a big game changer for me, I finally had something I was willing to put on my EDC setup. I think a lot of people are going to give dots a try now that it exists.
Great video. On the fence myself.
Haha 😂 I love ya John!! I felt the exact same way, sadly there’s a lot of their stuff that seems to be more along the line of “screw advancing” instead of what works best Lol still love Wilson combat tho!!
Well thought through and easy to follow. I respect and even agree with your opinion. Thanks for the discussion.
It’s about being comfortable and retaining instinctive muscle memory under stress with the sights one uses.
100% agree. A dot with proper training is superior to iron sights. That being said you should be proficient with irons just for the off chance you have to use a different handgun.
I don't mind proficiency, but can't really imagine a remotely honestly possible scenario when suddenly iron sight proficiency is critical for almost anyone.
I agree 100%. Being a baby (2 years) in terms of shooting, I feel lucky. I immediately took to the dot. It made sense to me. I can shoot irons just fine, I'm just slower. In reverse, I'm playing catch up with leg locks in BJJ. Learning outside of your wheelhouse is uncomfortable. But as they say, "You do you."
I would love to run an optic on my carry gun. But they're so expensive! Even if the optic is more than what I paid for my carry gun do you recommend it? I'm decent with iron sights so is it worth getting fiber optics or night sights?
I'll never put red dot optics on no pistol of mine and yes I am old school iron sights guy but I do like and have a nice red dot optic on my ar9 pcc for those out to say 50 yard shots and no more and I do sport fiber optic front sights on some of my pistols/revolvers and on all of my shotguns and only one 3x9 glass scope on an old Remington rifle !!! It's all personal preference !!!
All very nice,all very expensive!!
I think they’re a great addition but definitely not necessary. Elijah Dicken shot the rampage killer 42 yards away with stock iorn sights no problem 8/10 shots on target no formal training. Considering that, it’s just not worth it at this time of my life I can see irons perfectly and hit well enough within 30 yards. Also just as a side note, red dots depending on size and design have gotten caught up from people drawing from concealment
I think that’s wrong headed.
Not to mention, the further away you get, the more liability you have. Each round you send down range that you miss is a potential lawsuit/criminal charge; especially in today's world.
Some people will disagree with me, and that's fine. However, there's a difference between shooting at extended distances with a handgun, red dot or not, on a static range or in a real life situation where the threat is shooting back and moving.
I would much rather close the distance and take my shots unless that was absolutely not an option.
@@ASPextra I don’t see how running stock iorn sights is wrong headed.
@@Knight_of_the_Old_Code I totally agree I just made this point because I think that particular instance was sad but impressive at the same time. I give a lot of credit to police, it’s a whole nother ballgame adding the suppression of stress. That’s hard to train for
@@stevenbartoszewski1654 Exactly 💯
All great points made respectfully.
I loved the video you are referencing and I agree with you in that I don't agree with everything he said but the points he made are good and worth discussing and also it comes from a good place. In all fairness though, at the end of the video, he did not say he thought red dots were a fad. What he said was that it was still too early to tell if this was going to stick around or eventually go away. In that respect I think he is right. While very popular, we are still some ways away form full adoption and you never know if there is something better around the corner waiting to render red dots obsolete. I could be wrong of course but the point is we cannot predict the future.
"Need" is a strong word. Most people don't need 4 wheel drive truck, but there are definitely some benefits to having one.
I like that analogy.
Also. You don’t always have a chance to fully extend arms in short range defensive situation to get the dot in front of your eyes.
If it’s that close, you’re point shooting either way.
That means irons aren't in front of your eyes either!
Both of my dot pistols have very low red dots so my presentation was nearly identical. I found it extremely easy to pickup the dot. I don’t know if I can go back now.
I can consistently hit a steel silhouette at 50 yards with a 43x with a 407k. I cannot do that with irons.
I wear tri-focals and struggle with iron sights. I have no problem with my red dot on my carbine. I’m going to start looking into red dots on my pistols.
Alex,
Perfect example for less than 10 yards.
Idpa Nats 2022, look at the score card, between Nils and J.J.