Chris Finlayson and Matthew Hooton on the controversial Treaty Bill
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
- Last week we got a taste from Waitangi of how tangata whenua feel about the Coalition government’s proposals around Te Tiriti. Tonight, we sound out Tangata Tiriti. Pākehā. Tauiwi. Right-leaning, left-wing, migrants. What do they make of it all?
First up, Moana Maniapoto sits down with Chris Finlayson, a former Attorney General and Treaty negotiations minister under National. As well as political commentator Matthew Hooton who has worked with both National and Act. As a conservative, how does Matthew view the move towards a Treaty Principles Bill and referendum?
I can’t thank you enough for your YT channel Moana. I learn a lot from the people you interview, Māori & non-Māori. Thank you!!
Yes . She asked good questions. During the election, she did a good job.
@nz_media_watch You revealed your own biases, through lying that Finlayson was misrepresenting what Te Tiriti says. It took less than 5 mins to fact check that & find you, the fact checking ‘journalist’, are the untrustworthy one.
With what our beautiful country and all its people we dont need division no! As a maori we need the Government to honor the Treaty and we can work it out together from their.
Thank you for this, its good to be equipped with the facts
Good on Chris & Mathew 👍
NZ has affirmative action to train doctors from rural districts too.
just maake sure u dont visit 1 ...it culd b catastrophic
Wow. Fantastic thoughtful commentary. I did not ever expect to agree with M Hooten. National should remember Sir Doug Graham initiated the Treaty Settlement process, a critical legacy.
typical whimsical waffling shape shifting arguments frm the lobbying crony capitalist hooton
Rangatira does not equal partnership. It means chieftainship. In the treaty, the chiefs status as such was to be protected.They retained mana over their tribes while that mana was also limited by a new law and power in the land, the Queen/ Crown. It was a heirarchical world and was to be understood heirarchically. Chiefs themselves reffered to European men of means also as Rangatira - self-determined and free. This addressed the primary concern of chiefs, which was that they would become slaves.
Why, before the 1970s, did Maori radicals say 'the treaty is a fraud' instead of 'honour the treaty'. Because they accepted the common meaning of the treaty... and rejected it. Those after 1970 learned to re-interpret the treaty, now there are two versions of it, one English and one Maoir, and we are all called to honour/ hoitu the ti tiriti. 'Ti tiriti' is endlessly repeated in order to emphasis the new meaning invested in the Maori version.
Wrong. But funny that you believe yourself. Thanks for the laugh 😂
Tangata tiriti [people of the treaty], if anything, applies to Maori [or Maori chiefs] as they are the ones that signed the treaty. Tangata Whenua [people of the land] arguably applies to all of us. I mean, where else can those of European descent live. This country that our forefather built is thus our home too.
honour the treaty.
Toitū te Tiriti
Great interview
Great interviews thank you❤
Exactly Chris, we don't need division!
The nakedness of New Zealand was ignored the Treaty ,because with old documents of the Treaty was upside down, because in the Treaty was Iwi,Maori and Tau Iwi is every ethnicity,
The problem is it is not clear what this means, and like all words everyone has a different interpretation. The world is different now than 1840, the coverage of government is far higher. People are scared most of uncertainty, we need clarity then we can talk about and get educated on this. If people are clear then they can understand and the fair can go away.
TINO RANGATIRATANGA ADDED TO OUR SYSTEM FOREVER
Alot of Pākehā I know always seem to be pre ocuppied with alot of mindless phobia concerning Māori rights, Te Tiriti, Te Reo, etc. If your Māori your already stereo typed before you open your waha to say anything about anything for that matter. Most annoying!
You just described my family and their friends!
It's very embarrassing as a Pākehā who believes what's best for Māori is best for all - the arguments are so repetitive and so easily debunked
@@catherinevovna851 oh yea! try me? i will debunk u then denounce u!
i think thts a lil anecdotal dont u ? couple of pakeha mates isnt much of a sample size
The 'tragedy' of Maori is that the chiefs were free to sell the surplus of their land, forests and treasures to the Queen and later to settlers. This is just economics 101, we desire economic gain in selling what we have a surplus of for what we have a shortage of [money, goods etc]. Maori today, tend to look at the current value of developed land, after the nation has been built, and project that back onto the bare geography of the past.
so true
Hooton 'the law has evolved since 1840 and ,more recently, since1975'. Besides the point. It's history that we need to go to in order to understand the treaty. This gives us the fuller context and meaning that was involved. It is also an interesting question to ask whether the treaty itself should also be historized - instead of functioning as some founding/ constitutional document, it should be itself put into a phase of history whereby it was soon eclipsed. Maori rights were ratified by acts of Parliament that became the sovereign power of the land.
i think we shuld stick to the facts and leave mythology alone
@@markreynolds1112 The facts are historical, and the treaty is to be understood in its context. To approach it legalistically/ abstractly, devoid of the history could be called a peculiar modern form of mythology don't you think? The treaty signed between chiefs and the British Crown can in no way somehow become a constitutional document for NZ. That would just be a dangerous political experiment, however well intentioned.
The Treaty isn't in dispute, some Maoridom is though. Dragging the document into a political-legislative sphere is unnecessary and serves only to distract from sorting the real issues facing the country. As an ACT voter, I'm really annoyed this principles bill has come to life and the party's pragmatism around getting sh*t done is fading into idealogue mist. Can we leave this and move on??
no! as the mythology of the treaty culd very easily gt in the way of getting shit done in the near future
Amazing. Thank you.
Hooton doesn't know what he is talking about when he flippantly suggests that the Maori text does not recognize the Crown as sovereign. What he doesn't know is the history involved in the writing by Hobson and Busby, and then the communicating of that text by the missionaries to the Maori, whom the chiefs trusted to act in their best interest.
yea hes a shape shifting lobbyists
You can see these guys talk in away that common law develops.
I sometimes wonder if the groveling apologies, thought largely ceremonial, that were given alongside the reparations, the ones that Iwi demanded, and the ones that dishonoured the memory of our own forebears, were not in reality a kind of treason. It has done irreparable damage, in the political sphere, as those with the eternal grievance [and yes, there is no point trying to appease that... all appeasement only fuels] have that grievance morph from the economic to the political sphere demanding sovereignty. But but but... the business-minded 'Pakeha' politicians say, you signed and said the reparations were final. Ah, say those to be unappeased, we now demand political restitution... and point to the groveling apologies proving our dastardly designs, that were signed by the short-sighted but no doubt well-intentioned politicians such as Findlayson. Where were our statesmen, with a sense of honour, justice and history when we needed them!? Just as well treason has been taken off the law books as a crime.
Tonga???? Wtf is going on when tonga has a say in NZ
Surprise to hear Finlayson being spoken to like he sad. You see hate speech has been around for years.
❤🤍🖤 just Māori have way more rights to our whenua ĀOTEĀRŌA
No more politics political politicians Mr speaker and house of white primacy Bill
Good Interview ty. Sorry to hear the harassment korero Chris Finlayson, no Ngati Whare ahau, kia ora. Yes the psychology of it to instil fear of loss, these mind games are not cool, attacks on our hinengaro... as a collective & give division a not so gentle shove
P
In my opinion the era has change from that time, only pakeha and Maori. Now NZ fill with more diversity nation consist from different race.
If we want to move forward as one nation NZ I think we should consider the referendum as democratic country.
I don’t see how you can have a referendum on a treaty agreement that is between Maori & Crown. It’s clearly dishonest and the numbers are not proportional to Maori
Ok what about maori on the last jorney of humanitys everlution to the last landmass at the end of the world that sees the first sunrise and the dawn of a new day for the world we have a vmfainth conection to all cultures across the globe taiwan peru india mexico amerika egypt africa the pasific we ended the longest human indevor traveld the globe with navigation using stars
We lived well into our 100s now we die 55s 60s from a culture that drought sicknees cancer heart attack land loss homeless fully dependant on social housing western foods are killing us
Law from another culture forced apon us language loss through betting our grand perants what did we ever do to the colonial british we are Maori we are not equal to to english shameless colonial past is present in our dayli lifes the pain of of the rongs done to maori theft trauma lies all for greed power and happines and welth of the backs of our our people we are not equal
I think that’s dishonourable to suggest that the treaty agreement between Crown & Maori be put to a referendum. That agreement is between Crown & Maori so why should you get a say? I think if the treaty is abandoned then the country obviously belongs to Maori
@@herereihana7892 maori life expectancy was 30yrs old b4 the british and democracy serves all ppl equally, maori tribes have billons of dollars at there disposal go ask them y yor ppl r still poor? ngati phatua owns down town auckland but there are still so many homeless maori
@@hanzjensen2154 problem is tht no one can agree wht the treaty actually means ?
Toitu te Tiriti!
Get rid of the Treaty! Get rid of the principles bill and partnership.
Individual rights and freedoms are far more important than Collective rights if you want to protect and look after minorities the most common minority in the world is the individual so enhancing individual rights is enhancing Maori Pacifica pakia rights
That is what is causing the issues. Because while Pakeha have a focus on the individual first, collective second, Maori and Pacifica cultures deal as a collective first, individual second.
This difference is what ACT, NZ First, and National today do not understand, and are representing the last bastion of those that never did understand from the signing itself.
No, that’s highly subjective opinion, not fact.
How contemporary of you (not to mention socially irresponsible & psychically immature) to bang on about rights & freedoms, while ignoring their reverse ie responsibilities.
When we recognise & include responsibilities as equal to rights & freedoms, the collective takes its place as an equal partner.
The ‘individual’ is always in relationship, is always part of something larger & more powerful than themselves ie is always part of a collective. Human or non-human. The collective must prevail, otherwise we create distortions, delusions and major chronic issues eg endless gun violence in the US. Pollution of the air, oceans, fresh water and land. Destruction of forests, wetlands, grasslands and other critical, supportive eco-infrastructure. And so it goes.
@@brycenew Maori have always recognised responsibilities, except they are framed by the collective first view, and always through our connections, which is why when Maori explain who we are, we start with the mountain and river first, family name last.
Because Pakeha view the opposite way around, it means that there is a clash of culture all the time, where the family name is first, the rest is listed after that. Which is why ACT and NZF are always frustrated, because they want Maori to view things the Pakeha way only.
They want Māori to follow the Pakeha rules NEVER
Māori ❤🤍🖤 are the only Indigenous n ĀOTEĀRŌA
Ehua Moana why are you talking to an ex MP and political commentator about a policy system and how it operates?
Shouldn't you be talking to a systems analyst?
They are just end users of the application itself, not the ones who maintain or build it.
If you want answers to why the policy system doesn't function properly then you need to go deeper and find the people who change the light bulb, not the ones who push the light switch!
Jai Adi Da!
I get your point but we know what Seyless and Act want to do with treaty policy so he doesn't need more airtime for his divisive talking points. I think Moana is interviewing these two, not for the benefit of people who understand the role Te Tiriti has in our politics, but for people who (if raised here) were screwed over by the education system and are politically illiterate, so are susceptible to divisive messaging, and tauiwi new to Aotearoa.
Christopher Finlayson was the Minister for Treaty negotiations on behalf of the crown from 2008-2017, so he has been integral to the settlement processes that have been arranged. He doesn't want 9 years of his hard work undone so this is his defence or understanding of that work.
Matthew Hooton is a right-wing political commentator who has a reasonable following (some rather rabid) and has considerable understanding of how our system works. Matthew said "If we were to take the Māori text as authoritative, then the Crown is not sovereign and Māori own everything". I feel his role here is to curry favour away from the referendum (maintain status quo) as the true definition of Tino Rangatiratang could legally tip the constitutional arrangements of NZ on their head.
We need more of these korero to happen to combat the miseducation of those chronically online in spaces shaped by US culture.
@@skovdzschitt3230 the right isnt shaped by us culture u twit we have had right wing politics long b4 the influence of us culture
There will be no Act/Hobsons Pledge referendum on Treaty when the majority are now coloniser pakeha who have benefited from the damage of colonisation and live off the wealth of stolen Maori land and resources
You are one of those who think it was paradise 150 or so years ago. It wasn’t anywhere in the world. You are very lucky to be born in a much more enlighten era not perfect. But nz is better by far than most of the world. For all nzders. Including maori.
@@chrisnipper9163 Maori would have carried on and fared much better without Colonisation.
yes and we would have been much better without ww1 or ww2, or the Maori wars. Without slavery, without indentured labour. Sorry none of us have any idea how alternative histories would have played out! A famous saying is "Mans inhumanity to man, has made countless millions mourn" We cannot change history!
@@chrisnipper9163 History is usually written by the 'Victors' ... it is often biased.
@@chrisnipper9163 My Iwi on the East Coast had a huge trading sea port and the land was and ocean was rich in resources ... It was the Food Basket of the Area. 144,000 hectares were confiscated by the crown because our Rangatira, Mokomoko was wrongfully convicted in the hanging of Volkner, a Missionary. Our 6 Hapu (sub tribes) got squeezed onto a reservation of poor quality and our Rangatira was wrongfully hung by the neck. He didn't even get a Trial which was supposed to be Law for everyone, including Maori at the time. Mokomoko's conviction was used as justification to take Te Whakatohea's land. He has only just recently been Pardoned and his Family's name, cleared and his bones have finally been taken out of the Prison and laid to rest, with dignity on his Ancestoral Land. It left our otherwirse rich and resourceful Iwi Landless and in poverty. Tell me again how Colonisation was good for Maori?
dismantle the treaty
That would mean sending you home though 🤔
WHY...people paying taxes fund the maoris gravy train@@Kult365
@@Kult365 B/s 'HOME for most of us is HERE. Get real, you're living a lie because your whanau are deceiving all their mokopuna with b/s. Don't forget your ancestors invaded this country and took it by force from Moriori. Veteran Soldier. NZ. 83.
Where are you gonna move to?
Dismantles Pākeha rights to be here. Te Tiriti gives you citizenship. Without it, you're an overstayer on occupied land, and we will move in. Make sure you mow the lawns.
The land and resources belong to Maori. We partnered with the crown to trade our resources 50/50. Maori did not partner with ordinary pakeha. We partnered with the Crown. Theres a big difference.
exactly difference is maori benefited big time
go woke go broke