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IRL Racing Drivers Using Weight Transfer aka "Slip Angle" "Zero Countersteer Drift" "4 Wheel Drift"
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2021
- Alain Prost's Braking & Cornering Techniques:
• Alain Prost's Braking ...
I can't find the video of Ohi-san driving a white Supra on Maze Sea Circuit in 1989 on Best MOTORing official channel.
So here's Nakaya-san driving a black Supra on Maze Circuit in 1988 instead(although he is just brake-drifting around mostly):
• 中谷明彦 Gを感じてドラテクをみがけ!!【B...
Tsuchiya vs Ohi FR sports car battle on Ebisu Higashi(1989):
• R32スカイライン登場 ２リッターライバル対...
Tsuchiya Keiichi Testing old & new Gen 2 MR2s on Ebisu Higashi(1993):
• 土屋圭市が徹底チェック!! Part 2 S...
Apparently Best MOTORing official channel removed the 1994 Tsukuba battle video from their channel. The video is no longer in my reference playlist and I can't find it on their channel.
No link. RIP.
edit: They made this video private as well. RIP.
Kurosawa Jr. and Nakaya Drifting Evo 5 & 6 during a Tsukuba battle(1999)
• Video
This is a compilation of real racing drivers on various circumstances and corner radiuses using the weight transfer to negotiate the car around the bends with subtle tailslide.
The fabled technique, for the lack of a better word, is recently being labelled as "zero countersteer drift" or "slip angle", or "four wheel drift" depending on who you ask. These words vaguely point to an advanced cornering method where the driver uses the brake to shift the weight to the front, lift the rear to rotate the car around the early apex, and set the nose for faster exit.
This entry technique is more visible on gravel rallys, because the surfaces on these events provide little grip, and therefore plenty of opportunity for slides. On asphalt surfaces, it is increasingly becoming hard to find the cars and drivers doing this, thanks to the technological development during the last decades.
But it is certainly a real thing that one can do with enough experience and outdated technology. Maybe some worn out tires as well.
Due to the popularity of the anime series 'Initial D' and recent simracing boom caused by the pandemic, it has become the holy grail that simracing folks want to get their hands on.
I will add the link to the original videos(as for the Best MOTORing videos, the ones that are visible on the official channel) as I find them. I need to look into my playlists of 5000 videos.
If you liked the content, leave a like or check out my other racing game videos. If you feel generous, you can donate a dollar or two here to help with my medical expenses:
ko-fi.com/prickyperil
#racing
#drift
#SlipAngle
#initiald
I KNOW "SLIP ANGLE" PER SE IS NOT A TECHNIQUE
Do you want me to lecture about Lateral G and tyres contact patch or do you want racing drivers pulling cool slides
I've heard the words "slip angle" used multiple times by actual racing drivers in a context that signifies the amount of rear slip in relation to front. BEFORE SIMRACING MADE THE WORD POPULAR.
Whatever it's called in rallying it was the fastest technique in rear wheel drive cars, like Escort MkII, Chevette, Stratos etc. I believe Rauno Aaltonen called it '4 wheel skid'. Still the fastest technique on gravel.
In Acropolis rally it was combined with 3 wheel technique, on the corner one of front wheels would be over the cliff edge, apex was chosen beyond the edge of the cliff to straighten the corner. It's not seen anymore because it only worked for rwd.
@@piotrmalewski8178it’s not a drive type issue, it’s a rigidity issue
@@notaboutit3565 I don't quite follow. You can't maintain powerslide in FWD. You can use some sideways techniques to enter corner faster but you're always loosing speed, while RWD is able to maintain speed and even accelarate in opposite lock. FWD can't.
@@piotrmalewski8178 but this video, nor the comment you replied to were about power sliding. Balancing weight transfer using throttle and brake (“slip-angle manipulation”) has more to do with chassis rigidity and suspension dynamics (and of course driver skill) than anything else. Even in the video there’s several AWD vehicles making use of the technique on asphalt tracks mind you, hence my comment. Not really sure what point you were trying to make.
@@notaboutit3565 I still can't see what chassis rigidity has to do with that.. This technique can well be used even in 70s cars that flex to the point the front windshield can fall off, (thus they would screw metal plates around to hold them in place). AWD, sure needs this technque, especially long and narrow ones like Lancer, but they can do this because they put a lot of power on the rear wheels. In FWD however, you'd mainly lose time this way.
Slip Angle, Zero Countersteer Drift, 4 Wheel Drift, Rotation, Neutral Steer, Corner Entry Oversteer, 'in between grip and drift', 'at the limit', so many terminologies that I dont even know anymore
I'd say rotation is the closest("slip angle" is the WORST way to phrase this) but people don't like reading these days...
@@pricklypear300 Hmmm yeah makes sense. But I think that what takumi does with his AE86 is 4 Wheel Drift because it is actually induced by hisself, not just a result of driving at the limit like rotation does. But even then regardless if the turning may look like a drift, if it has a tailslide for pointing out of the exit or just a normal grip turn, they're all and still rotating the car going in and out the corner. Slip angle in super simple terms is just the deformation of the tires, its contact patch, and the relation between the tire and the ground when driving.
Then we have to redefine the word 4 wheel drift cos it is not a touge-street racing limited term...
ua-cam.com/video/w-qitCCq5Mc/v-deo.html
And I am aware of what slip angle is. It's literally what creates grip.
I didn't watch the anime so I don't know the exact thing but Tsuchiya Keiichi himself is seen doing what you describe.
ua-cam.com/video/j21RFl_MngQ/v-deo.html
I'd assume it kinda works in a combination of joyriding, DIY racing strats, cars serving multiple purposes like drifting and racing, sprint race-type street races where you don't need to conserve tires, and limited setup options and budgets for acute hairpin-rich environment that is touge.
@@pricklypear300 I agree that it aint limited to only touge, i just thought that actually inducing the reaction and being concious/subconcious that you are doing it, not just a product of driving at the limit, is what counts for me as a 4 wheel drift.
Yep, this is the one I describe of a 4 wheel drift. But just like racing techniques, I think that 4 wheel drift can have different approaches or ways on style or how to execute, not just limited to a style like Tsuchiya's or Takumi's. Also not limited to just a car, motorcycles can do it too.
I assume and agree too. Also on low grip surfaces, autocross/small af circuit layout like tsukuba 1000, tires with big slip angle like bias-ply, super understeery cars, front biased weight distribution, and cars with rear solid axle.
As based on my opinion, this is why the topic of slip angle/4 wheel drift/ zero countersteer drift is so complicated because it is based on the perception or opinion of what other people think it is. But it sure is oversteer and rotation.
Using the concept in a gravel sim race, let me know what you think 🥂
ua-cam.com/video/Go1HHt_w220/v-deo.html
The rotation of the steering wheel follows the trajectory of the corner so perfectly it makes me laugh, that shit is insane
professional racing driver magic👍 especially old school ones, sliding is natural for them
the track is your music, and the car is your instrument
MR2 snap oversteering is not an MR2 problem. It’s a driver problem
My man Tsuchiya Keiichi here just proved us that on a clip there
Indeed. ua-cam.com/video/VNCXJ1RAcWw/v-deo.html This is earlier MR2 SW20 which should be more twitchy but the driver handles it no problem.
Snap oversteer? Sounds like a skill issue
Well its about learning how to drive an MR.
Snap oversteer is an MR characteristic.
wasnt that an issue on AW11's? not SW20's like in the clip here
@@Aeolous1 its an issue with MR cars in general
Weight distribution
Well technically slip angle is something that's always happening at the tire when you're cornering. It's literally just how much the tire is being pulled and then you get to maximum slip angle and you reach the limit of grip. Modern cars just have so much grip and aero now that you rarely see much actual rotation like older vehicles. If you watch goodwood revival you'll see a whole lot of slip angle all the time because it gets the chassis pointed to exit pre-apex, gets you to power quicker. Shows well on those old Mini's and Jags and the like with bias ply tires.
I tried to tell people the same thing but the youtube sim crowd was already sold on the so called "slip angle technique", so I decided to just go with the flow.
Best explanation I've seen here on this video
Yeah a lot of this has to do with the move to radial tyres in later racing cars. It lead to a lower rotation technique becoming dominant.
In a street car, you can feel what the car is doing with your posterior, especially if you have a worn-out seat. Old school driver aids don't need computers. IYKYK
Replacing the driver's seat in a vintage race car is generally considered bad luck. Is there a method to the madness? 💡
It's funny how the term slip angle has gotten so misinterpreted, at this point it's kind of a meme
Interesting because the pro drivers like Chris Harris seemed to use it in this misinterpreted context but the listener was Markku Alen. It's hard to think they didn't know what the definition was, maybe they used it in the correct way and both understood what it meant, but in layman's ears it might have sounded like oh, they are talking about the angle between the car's point of aim and the pavement. I have no idea.
0:52 me in an assetto tandem server tryna catch up
Imagine this being done in like a much faster paced racing league
I think they still do it, its just so subtle and trailbraking is so natural these days thanks to the rear wings that it's not noticeable
@@pricklypear300 that makes sense now that you mention it. I was so faded when I commented that 😂
My car knowledge is still very much surface level (i dont even drive cars) but iirc f1 drivers uses slip angle
Modern racing tyres typically have very low optimal slip angles, it's not so noticeable
Goodwood revival races does it still and its pretty cool
The “slip-angle” phenomena is what Andretti was referencing with this quote: “It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula One Level, think that the brakes are for slowing the car down.”
Meaning he was using the brakes to turn the car around I presume?
@@pricklypear300 I presume he meant they are there for weight transfer and with that making the car turn.
@@pricklypear300IIRC Jackie Stewart said something to the effect of "brakes aren't for slowing down they're for going faster!" Because yeah you can use them to turn in and get set up for the next acceleration
In a vintage bike rally I was in I was behind one old codger with an empty sidecar. Around left turns (sidecar on the left) he'd throw his weight to the right to get the sidecar off the ground, and turn way tighter than without it. It was awesome. At the pub after he said "I knew the young fella was behind me so I had to look cool" hahahah I'm 29. He looked cool af.
That's quite a ballsy move
That was probably for fun, as you can turn a sidecar bike tighter when leaning into the corner, preventing it from tilting
@@Gnerko123 Ah ok makes sense, it was very fun hahaha
29 is pretty young
@@dielaughing73 yeah I know lol 🐣
This is super useful, thank you for sharing!
Thank you back!🥰
Nice! Glad to see more people learning to appreciate the finer details of car control :D
I wish even more ppl did! Specifically here on my video so I can gain more subs 😇/j
There is only oversteer & understeer AND those times when the vehicle does both at the same time with varying degree angles.
This level of driving calls for the highest degree of vehicle feel & manipulation. Over time it becomes natural, easy and fun to do.
I can vibe with that statement👍 For the in between ones, the racing community collectively agreed to call it neutral steer but it is really hard to find one in real life out of the books, innit.
Yeah its really fun, that. I think I won't forget the feeling ever. Really intoxicating. I couldn't do it as often as I would like, but I understand the addiction.
Note:
Hey, look at Martin Brundle doing the same thing starting from 1 minute 21 second of this video:
ua-cam.com/video/DnZMMQsYcFE/v-deo.html
1. @0:04 I didn't write the year but I wasn't sure if it was 1978 or 1979 so I'll leave it blank.
2. I followed the order for the original Japanese names for English footnotes. For example, '中谷明彦' is 'Nakaya(中谷, Family name) Akihiko(明彦, Given name)' and '土屋圭市' is 'Tsuchiya(土屋) Keiichi(圭市)'. I followed that instead of following the English order of writing the given name first and family name second, in which case it would be: 'Akihiko Nakaya' and 'Keiichi Tsuchiya'. So @1:55 I typed in 'Takashi Ohi', which was a mistake and should be changed to 'Ohi Takashi'.
3. I included the ones that are closer to "grip technique" than drift because the point of these theoretical "zero countersteer" is to go quicker instead of just showing off. And the line between drift and grip seem to get vague at certain point. For example, Ohi Takashi's driving at Maze Sea Circuit in 1989(@0:38) was featured as a "grip technique" and was compared directly to Tsuchiya Keiichi's "fast drift technique". The definition of "drifting and grip" seem to vary in the racing community depending on the drivers and the perspective, as Tsuchiya Keiichi classifies every steering movement that is used to correct the car's slip as "drift", but for the most, usually the noticeable slide of the car beyond certain side slip angle is only seen as drift.
What I'm trying to say is: don't @ me because you think these are not strictly "zero countersteer" drifts and somehow you feel the need to point that out like a no-life anorak. I included the term because these 'terms' are being thrown around so randomly these days out of the original context and there's not many people that are sitting down to set a clear definition that aren't misleading, especially on a chaotic linguistic environment such as youtube.
Damn so many footage from old race I'm never seen it before bc I'm not find anything about that just watch some street race or circuit race
I'm enjoy to watch and learn about car but i have no time a lot of my work i not finished yet, I'm too bad at school lol
Good luck on your schoolwork >,
Logically, it is the fastest way around the corner. Just the tiniest bit past losing traction means no pendulum effect (wasted acceleration force) from weight shift transfers resulting in smoother line transitions. It's enough to offer the
Kind of how ABS works at the limit by altering very quickly between traction and no traction. Now apply it to lateral forces.
If you've driven in sand in an AWD, you already know going it's like constantly four wheel drifting at the limit. going fast is not really about where the wheels are pointed or how much gas you're giving it. It's about building up your turning power and acceleration before the turn so the car weight will naturally align itself correctly while allowingyou to accelerate much earlier.
What if I have only driven FWD on dirt and gravel does that count
@@pricklypear300same thing just with less traction/acceleration fron the rear to bite into the inside of the corner, and a higher chance of straightening out your car mid turn if you start counter steering (i have yet to test the difference this is all guesswork)
@@pricklypear300now hop in your Mini, Cleo, Golf or Civic and do the same thing with the handbrake on tarmac. Try some cornering without applying the brakes and you'll have a good idea how much available grip there is. Low speed racing is also called hypermiling so you neededn't go any faster than the posted limit. The idea is that by not applying the brakes, you are saving fuel by not losing as much momentum
I always just called it throwing the vehicle into a corner. Never done it in a car, but in go-karting I attempt it all the time. In an endurance race i can see this loosing time in the long run, going through tires quicker
I did it in a car, but only felt it through the seat. Kinda underwhelming because the car just feels like it wants to hold on. And of course, they wouldn't necessarily try to do it in such a big angle in modern enduro race, I agree.
@pricklypear300 also, thanks for finding an example with a mk3 supra. I have an 89
That's very cool. How's the fuel economy treating you >:) btw, did you post one comment or two?
..that isnt a technique from anime, anime took it into pop culture. the technique exists far before anime popularity. it is commonly used in early days of F1
(warning: long read) There seem to be a conflict of interest regarding this term "four wheel drift". Nobody is satisfied with anything, and each of the racing fans are pointing at different things when they say it, depending on what they saw, be it GP Racing, or that anime, or copy of Pluspy VHS video on the internet. I knew someone would say exactly what you said, so I left this in the description:
"This is a compilation of real racing drivers on various circumstances and corner radiuses using the weight transfer to negotiate the car around the bends with subtle tailslide.
The fabled technique, for the lack of a better word, is recently being labelled as "zero countersteer drift" or "slip angle", or "four wheel drift" depending on who you ask. These words vaguely point to an advanced cornering method where the driver uses the brake to shift the weight to the front, lift the rear to rotate the car around the early apex, and set the nose for faster exit.
This entry technique is more visible on gravel rallys, because the surfaces on these events provide little grip, and therefore plenty of opportunity for slides. On asphalt surfaces, it is increasingly becoming hard to find the cars and drivers doing this, thanks to the technological development during the last decades.
But it is certainly a real thing that one can do with enough experience and outdated technology. Maybe some worn out tires as well.
Due to the popularity of the anime series 'Initial D' and recent simracing boom caused by the pandemic, it has become the holy grail that simracing folks want to get their hands on."
And 3. on my pinned comment:
"I included the ones that are closer to "grip technique" than drift because the point of these theoretical "zero countersteer" is to go quicker instead of just showing off. And the line between drift and grip seem to get vague at certain point. For example, Ohi Takashi's driving at Maze Sea Circuit in 1989(@0:38) was featured as a "grip technique" and was compared directly to Tsuchiya Keiichi's "fast drift technique". The definition of "drifting and grip" seem to vary in the racing community depending on the drivers and the perspective, as Tsuchiya Keiichi classifies every steering movement that is used to correct the car's slip as "drift", but for the most, usually the noticeable slide of the car beyond certain side slip angle is only seen as drift.
What I'm trying to say is: don't @ me because you think these are not strictly "zero countersteer" drifts and somehow you feel the need to point that out like a no-life anorak. I included the term because these 'terms' are being thrown around so randomly these days out of the original context and there's not many people that are sitting down to set a clear definition that aren't misleading, especially on a chaotic linguistic environment such as youtube."
Yes. Like you said, I know for a fact that the term "four wheel drift" was used before any of the anime fad came in, and grand prix drivers were the one to use it. Here's John Watson saying that :
ua-cam.com/video/w-qitCCq5Mc/v-deo.html
So I've been scouring the internet to find who was the first one to use the word "drift" as a technique to not only show off, but to actually go fast(due to the lack of grip). Most of them were the same copypasted legend that reads like
"Kunimitsu Takahasi was the one to implement the tailslide into car racing. Young Tsuchiya Keiichi was deeply inspired by this, and started winning races... something something."
Then I found that Jim Clark was doing it before it was cool. It is mentioned in the book by Eric Dymock apparently:
tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7486
There was another article on this very subject, which mentioned Jim Clark being able to brake the car into a corner at tremendous speeds and exiting the corner with a spectacular powerslide, thereby saving seconds compared to his fellow gp drivers. I can't find the link but it is certainly out there.
But, BUT. People who saw Initial D or Tsuchiya Keiichi's this video:
ua-cam.com/video/j21RFl_MngQ/v-deo.html
seem to think that they need a better word to describe
"a driver intentionally upsetting the car's balance in an optimal way by the use of braking and more often than not, an unusually violent steering input to enter a corner(usually tight ones on touges), but not in a way that it induces a good amount of countersteer and tailslide, in order to turn quick and set up the car for a better exit."
So apparently it's the same "using weight transfer under braking to turn the car" deal, but it is actually not. It's confusing.
I personally would say it's just using weight transfer or... rotation, or... yawing etc. etc. but youtube is a chaotic environment. Nothing I can do about it. I know I'm feeding into the confusion, but I'm using the word as a title to bring more viewers in because it is popular in the "touge racing" niche section of youtube: you know, the "slip angle=drifting(???)" "four wheel drifting touge technique". The simracing youtubers who did that first used it in "relatively proper" context, but people don't dive into context... they just fish out the word these days.
@@pricklypear300 thats a very long read indeed, hahaha, but yeah, i just want to point out how the term it comes from anime is misleading. nevertheless, it is still widely considered to be "slipping" so im not sure if the terminology "four wheel drift" helped differentiate, as of because not countersteering vs countersteering still shaves off times but its a matter of application and execution rather than purely the techniques themselves
Meh. That was a mild sarcasm. I believe most viewers are smart enough to know that real life racing was there before the animes. I even put in years in which each clip was created, as annotations. If one can't see that, then I can't help them...
Ok budd but who tf said it was from an anime lol
no doubt it occasionally helps while turning, especially with some cars where you can regain that balance by pressing the throttle, and that when you're facing the exit
Exactly. Someone said like, it was like taking a false apex
That would be front wheel drive. Numerous drifting experts have reiterated that you can't drift in a fwd car just because you use the handbrake
@@luislongoria6621the people in this video (best motoring) literally have a video all about fwd drifting.
Not sure if it's the absolute fastest method but when you're dancing right on that edge between full on sliding/drifting and full grip at the limit and the car just rotates right around the corner perfectly like a dance. *Muah* chef's kiss. Nothing feels better.
Apparently Niki Lauda was very annoyed by Alain Prost pulling this in front of him, and said "I have to know how that (French person) is doing that. He just somehow turns the nose around quicker and accelerates so much earlier." So it was the quicker way for negotiating corners, and reportely Jim Clark was also proficient at doing this. Getting the balance right.
It is faster. Grip (rubber on asphalt) doesn't fall of linearly. In automotive engineering it is said that "a few degrees of slip provides the most grip". If you look at a graph of slip angle vs traction: As slip increases, traction actually goes up slightly, then falls off
@@nimmen Good to know. In Go-karting for instance I've felt like it's very quick but don't have hard data to prove it persay
I remember seeing an article on the AI sony trained to play gran turismo 7, and they noted how the AI learned techniques on its own to go faster, one of those was exactly this, a 4 wheel drift. Interesting how that works
That is very funny to hear lul
AI drifting its way to end simracers' careers
Good thing the AI never played Forza because it would be wall riding everywhere
As someone who owns a mr2, this is very satisfying.
Glad you enjoyed it. While making this I noticed there were one too many mr2s compared to other cars and said oh well who cares but here you are👍
Throwing the back in the mr2 is qlways satisfying :))
I remember accedentaly coming across this tecnique and learning a lil bit of it when i was playing racing games as a kid, its really FAST
It is. Particularly useful on grip-down and brake-gone situations.
I think I currently have a habit of wanting to kick the rear end out to rotate it to my liking whenever I take a corner, it's very oversteer-biased. I have a feeling it's not a healthy habit.
This is illustrated very well in the top levels of karting
I did see that. Karting is amazing I mean everything happens so fast and they manage
Fangio was the master of this, it was invented by the german team in the 1930s that needed to drive 700hp, -750kg car with skinny wheels.
Nuvolari was the first to do it
nice editing
Thanks!😊
Hey, I have noticed that mostly juiichi wakisaka and motoharu kurosawa to a lesser extent would be driving with one hand steering, feel free to check that out
Do they only use their left hand to drive like what does this mean
@@pricklypear300 yes, check juiichi wakisaka racing on best motoring, for example the hot version s2000 battle at ebisu (when the s2k blew the engine) and other regular races where wakisaka was driving
Can you share the title and link please?
Zero countersteer means your hands are no longer on the wheel while the car straightens itself out, just like you want to do before a crash so you don't break your hands. Nathan Karhu provides a perfect demonstration driving a Chevrolet Silverado in a cloud of smoke
I searched Chevrollelerrelelt Silverado and I see a pickup truck
And no...? I don't think it's quite that etc. etc.
That evo throttle control was insane !
Classic Nakaya-san brilliance👌
Thanks to ayc
@@kotarojujo2737yeah the AYC evos are space ships, the steering wheel angle is used in a subtly different way
Man i just hope they remodel ae86. The tail light doesnt look like it was supposed to be. And probably put plate number on our car. That would be cool for me tho. I dont know if it just me but everytime i watch replay on use interior cam, the rpm meter doesn't move.
Yes the rpm needles don't move on every single cars on replays. And I think AE86 is one of the uglier cars seen from the outside. It's several inches too narrow. We'll have Mazda Miata refurbished this update so who knows.
This requires very good throttle control
You should also add the original RUf Yellowbird Nurburgring run.
Maybe. Possibly.
My favorite terminology for it (since there are so many) is: Pulling a "Sideways Ronnie" ^^
Whatever Ronnie means, I agree :))) so many names!
@@pricklypear300 google says it means tribute to Ronnie Peterson and that his style of driving often included going little sideways
The car is going around corners with a drift angle (i.e nose closer to the inside of corner than the rear is) is because otherwise the rear tyres will not be producing cornering force. You can turn the front tyres relative to the car body to give them a slip angle but you can't turn the rear tyres relative to the car body, so you have to "angle" the car body relative to the car bodies direction of linear travel in order to give the rear tyres a slip angle and therefore get them producing cornering force.
I understand but how do you explain understeering cars but they corner anyway? Its not like the slip angle of the rear tyres are zero on those cars.
@@pricklypear300 ok this is a great question. My original comment kinda made it seem like you had to have a drift angle for the rear tyres to generate a cornering force but as you’ve correctly highlighted with your question, clearly it does not. I brushed over this to make it simple but you are right and right to call me out on it. Here’s the answer…
A car rotates around its center of mass which is located somewhere between the front and rear tyres. If you imagine the car spinning around its center of mass which it will be doing when cornering, that means there is a sideways velocity to the tyres whenever cornering.
If you draw out a force diagram, this will be pushing the rear tyres to the outside of the corner. When you sum the linear velocity vector of the tyre which is the same as the one for the center of mass of the car which is pointed straight ahead, with the tangential velocity vector of the rear tyre coming from the car spinning as it corners, you get a new velocity vector for the rear tyres that is pointed slightly to the outside of the corner. If the car were taking a right hand turn, that velocity vector would be pointed slightly to the left of the rear tyres and so the rear tyres would be generating some cornering force to the right. So even in the case of a car with zero drift angle as it takes a corner (that is nose and rear equally distant from the inside edge of the corner as it traverses the corner), the rear tyres are actually travelling slightly to the outside of the corner (represented by a linear velocity vector that points slightly left of the car if the car were making a right hand turn) which means the rear tyres will have a slip angle and generate cornering force to the right.
This phenomenon of an inherent underlying slip angle existing despite no drift angle in the car as it corners is true for the oversteery car too, it’s just that the oversteery car gets the rear tyres into an even larger slip angle as it corners by having a drift angle to the car. If the “oversteery car” is faster than the “understeery car” then it means the understeery car was not getting the rear tyres to the optimal slip angle for peak cornering force production. The oversteery car being able to do so, meant more overall cornering force production from the car was able to be created and in turn a higher speed carrying potential through the car was created too == faster lap time.
@@pricklypear300 finished with my many edits now. Reply ready to be read in full.
@@pricklypear300 did it make sense?
@@pricklypear300 or were you asking rhetorically?
Turning before the turn, and letting gravity and friction do the rest of the work
Master Driver Technique
This is how I race in games and it fuks up people doing 'grip' lines, because for shallow S bends, and off angle hairpins you can really go 'fast in fast out', instead of 'slow in fast out'. But if you are neck and neck with others on a grip line, you will rear end their braking, or sideswipe/t-bone them as they take the slow-in apex and you cut your outer side across that line. :(
You can only do it when you're ahead or in the clear.Also I've seen servers pop up that say "slip-drift only" but they always are a low-rank wrecking room. It's all very track/corner situational.
This is how I race in real life
Lets date
Just jokin lul yeah time attack and eacing are too different things thats for sure.
0:03 Hey ... do you know what kind of formula car this was❓... Thank you in advance.
I believe it was 1978 Renault MK21B F3 car.
"BANK ANGLE ! BANK ANGLE"
Wait... Wrong video !
Definitely wrong video 😅
This is how I drive in Gran Turismo.
This is how I drive irl
Wanna date
Trying to find that perfect amount of rotation and slip angle at entry 2nd corner Brands Hatch in a Radical SR3 under braking in GT7 . I think those first three corners of Brand Hatch are the most difficult in auto racing!
What, Paddock bend or Druids? I assume you mean Paddock bend.
@@pricklypear300 No, it's Druids. I pretty much got Paddock down.
Congratulations on scoring the SR3! While it's not the GTS, track cars definitely don't like imperfections as they will follow every bit of sealant on cracked tarmac called "road snakes" in the 2 wheeled lingo as well as rattle the fillings out of your teeth! Even Lewis Hamilton gave up his Pagani Huayra for a plush Ferrari 812 Grand Tourer
I wish I could score a vehicle like that. I was talking about GT7 and should have made that known I guess. @@luislongoria6621
slip angle and 4 wheel drift are different, 4 wheel drift happens beyond the grip limit of the tires and slip angle is on the limit
"Slip Angle" in fandom terms at this point is whatever magical cornering the driver makes around some hairpin corners that looks like the car is sliding but it has to be the fastest way no matter the circumstances...
Like how do you define what is "on the limit" or "beyond the grip limit" when a the tires' slipping itself is literally what creates grip? When the car and its tires are dynamic objects whose state changes every micro~milliseconds? I've seen some people trying to draw the line on the sand and it was pretty hilarious.
Just follow Tsuchiya Keiichi's simple definition: any attempt to catch the car from "flowing" into oversteer(and spinning out), with the use of steering correction(countersteering), falls into "drift" genre.
@@pricklypear300 yeah i guess you're right
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC: The links should be there in the description for original videos(they'll work if they haven't been removed), or you can just use the volume button like a normal, socially functioning person.
Most of these cars in the video are normal cars, in that they aren't modified. From the outside, most you'll hear in the original videos are just tires aggressively rolling on asphalt: not even tires squealing, but the boring sound you hear when you stand next to a 70mph dual carriageway. Even onboard videos had poor audio qualities due to them being from the 90s and the said normal car exhausts and the driver talking.
Lot of these had dubbed in narrations, the driver's own commentaries, and their own background music which I had to edit out somewhat due to copyright concerns.
Most important: This is a video that's meant to showcase the car's movement, not the engines.
In conclusion: "Only music in car videos should be engine notes": Save your purist nonsense. Most onboard engine sounds don't even sound good. Thank me I didn't put some knockoff Eurobeat that has been used a thousand times over.
The sense required for this is just beyond me. Cant seem to get it right on track and even simulators. Even with FR cars
Yeah you are not doing these without tryharding... I was going 85kph on a downhill hairpin slightly less severe than Tsukuba T1 and the car just held on like a baby dragging on their mum's trousers. You have to really tryhard beyond your normal brain to break the traction of modern cars. These videos are from late 80s to early 90s. Bad street tires and not much body ridigity and stuff. And these are trained racing drivers driving the wheels off of these cars. Especially brakes. What car do you drive?
In simulators I set up the suspension to induce understeer and turn in sooner into the corner to allow the car to understeer through the turn
It’s harder in sim because you can’t feel the true limit of grip or Gs. All you feel is steering input
If you can trailbraking it happens naturally
It happens because tyres have a certain amountnof squish, more exaggerated example is the way you can kind of push the nobbies on a dirtbike tyre in any direction no matter how much you inflate it.
That seems to be the case
Cool. I've done it in a rwd minivan in real life. It's satisfying. Really useful in rally sim racing. But really ruining rear tyre in gt sim racing.
Thanks for the info!
I dont think you can really put the EVO-6 in there as driving technique, as that is more a function of the Active Yaw Control in the rear end.
Also hilarious that some are commenting on Nakayas "throttle control", when the technique for driving with AYC is literally to trail brake into oversteer, and full throttle out without countersteering to upset thr AYC controller.
This entire technique, and the advanced diff controller developed with RalliArt that made Tommi Makinen so good at what he did in the EVO...until active diffs and yaw control were outlawed.
You would think everybody is brave enough to push that car enough so that ayc can do its job
But fair enough. Although I don't see slip angle as a technique per se, I just wanted simracers to get baited to watch this video about "the slip angle", although more recently they seem to get more triggered by the usage. All get translated into views either way.
@@pricklypear300 slip angle is the relationship between the tire contact patch, and the angle of input on the wheel.
The angular degree of discrepancy between the input of the wheel, and the directional force of the tires lateral grip, that happens from the flex in the tire sidewall, is measured as the slip angle of the tire.
This is often manifested as slow or lazy steering that requires more steering input than necessary to get past the slip angle of the tire. You can work around this by turning in earlie and letting the car push, or by overdriving the car slightly, pushing it to the limit of grip. Such as trail braking into oversteer to compensate for the larger slip angle on a standard road tire. Though, to be fair, modern road tires are far better now than they were even a decade ago, let alone 20-30 years ago when these BestMotoring videos were made.
This is the techniques displayed in your video clip with the Supra and Silvia, using zero counter 4 wheel drifts on a standard street tire. This is overcoming the high slip angle.
But while the root cause of that driving style is the tire slip angle, there is no such thing as "slip angle technique". It is just maximizing the grip within the tires slip angle. Which is what you would expect a professional racing driver to do.
@@bigbuckoramma please read my pinned comment.
@@pricklypear300 I did, and you're still misrepresenting the term.
@@bigbuckoramma quoted below is my response to another know it all bro that tried to annoy me. You are boring and no, I don't really care about whether you think I misrespresent the term because nobody cares outside of fringe minority of simracing blokes. Stay boring if you want.
"If you want to talk about the accuracy in nomenclature, you would have to examine the direction of tyre grooves(or imaginary centre line from front to back if slicks) of all four tyres and the deformation of their contact patch which would indicate their actual directional movement. Each tyre will have different slip angles at any given time when steering input is more than zero, due to the toe settings and lateral weight transfer resulting in difference of load bearing on either side etc etc etc
But lets try explaining it to people who just watched simracing videos on the internet and thinks its just fancy drift technique. Let's not for the sake of our own sanity."
slip angle is the way how to have no understeer car in next corner
Thanks dad
@@pricklypear300 you are not my son bruh
😑slip angle is the difference between the car's heading and the tire's contact patch. As in all four tires have slip angles. At best, it signifies the amount of slippage in the rear tires. It is not meant to be a technique or "way" per se to have no understeer in your car, "bruh". Also I called you "dad" as a sarcasm, if you haven't noticed, as in "don't try and lecture me."
+ I can take "bro" with some salt but I don't take "bruh" well. I am not your "bruh". I don't know you. Use that word again and I'll block you.
@@buntafujiwara8288 You didn't read. I'll give you a day to edit your comment.
@@pricklypear300 nah its month and nothing
depends on the suspension
That seems to be the case.
nice
Yep.
First thing you learn when racing Karts...
👍👍
my 3litre capri used to do this all the time until i put abag of cement in the boot
Capri, the Euro Ford one? That figures. Did the bag cause any Porscheificafion?
my friends laugh at me when i mention this topic lmao
Don't worry I won't laugh at you❤
R.I.P tire saving.
In Best MOTORing eps they often talk about how their brakes were cooking off after 3-4 laps, so the drivers were left still stamping on the brakes while the car is plowing into the corner and the steering is starting to point towards the apex - resulting in slides.
The tyres back then in 80s-90s weren't so grippy either by default apparently, so the cars were prone to sliding too. I noticed that some preferred tailsliding the cars instead of having almost no brakes at all and understeering.
I happen to know this is the only way to make a mk3 supra deviate from a straight line.
As in... it doesn't corner well? My reading comprehension is declining apologies
@@pricklypear300 a very stubborn beast prone to understeer. Mine was a 1990 Turbo in white with no modifications. Gorgeous car but quite unruly in the twisties
@@eggreedgious5194 just like the ones in the video, must be givin you some nostalgia innit, how much power?
These guys make it look like its so easy to drift those things around. They featured the mk3 multiple times doing the old braking drift... although one of them eventually cooked the brakes and spun out.. they knew it was a heavy car as well and grumbled about it but still
@@pricklypear300 it was rated at 234 horsepower I think. Beautiful car, great on the highway. Perfectly geared imo with the 5 speed. Early models had certain year specific issues but by 1990 I feel like they had the platform ironed out.
When iracing is obiviously real life according to it's subscribers, this video is proof that we live in simulation 😃
I thought they were improving that after real racing drivers tried the game and roasted them for being unrealistic😲
@@pricklypear300 they are improving, as they hired 18 months ago the guy that created the tyre model used in rFactor 2.
But they are in their initial steps of implementing physics improvements due to that hire. As an example, one of iRacing's most recent promotional videos, is announcing kerbs finally done in 3D and, consequently, that will result in the forces applied to the steering rack by the tyres - translated in the FFB - will NOW (lol!) have an actual physics correlation...
And this announcement is done with fanfare... AS THIS was not something present in order sims for years and years already... lol
I am actually ok with the flaws in the simulation. Iam not even waiting it to be any better. No matter how good it gets the price will always be robbery. It was the first proper online racing platform and all the succes in based on being first. Being first allow u to have large player base that has vested interest in the game, lots of people equals good races. But apparently early succes and loads of money make u lazy. If it would get much better, it would take players from other platforms and then we all would be a part of this pyramid scheme😄
@@valter_vava74
Shit.. Everyday commuting right there
Wherever you are living, I want the roads. Only the roads.
I can actually do that on Gran Turismo PSP in Any Cars, but in AR i can only do that on AWD and FWD cars
You can do it in FR cars of AR, but like I say all the time, its extremely muted on FR and honestly most other cars as well. AWD does feel like it suffers more when the rear is loosened up... it feels like the weight transfer kinda serves as a penalty for AWD and some FF cars
... which wouldn't matter cos if one's aiming for competitiveness they'll roid the heck out of their cars with 10psi slicks and racing suspension that "widens" the car by 20cms. Infinite grip. Never have to worry about breaking mid corner etc.
its ez to do with s30 devil z
@@lahtine876 I've noticed that. ua-cam.com/video/f7PbBZ1uRVU/v-deo.html
And the issue here is not about "you can do that in this car and not in others". I can brake-drift and four wheel slide around all day with street 45psi's on the rear wheels on any car. The problem is that it's muted. You should be able to do that in, say stock A70 Supra with no particular mods.
@@lahtine876 What is this? I made a video for you two even when you didn't ask *gasp😲
ua-cam.com/video/FU4read6ags/v-deo.html
I am so benevolent
Using the concept in a gravel sim race, let me know what you think 🥂
ua-cam.com/video/Go1HHt_w220/v-deo.html
I call it nonsense. Of course there’s countersteer. I would call it mild drifting.
I would also call it just drifting but somehow the slip angle seem to have landed as a word that signifies "that thing you do" in the simracing community
its almost like a motorcycle
I can see that. I am amazed how bikers can slide and not fall over.
man. what's with everyone riding the wave of "slip angle." but that's all people this era can do is ride the wave.
YOU LITERALLY HAVE "GET HER GREGNANT 18 PLUS" ON YOUR THUMBNAIL TO JEBAIT PEOPLE AND IT GOT LOWER THAN AVERAGE VIEWS
I think I am safe to assume that baiting people with wrong definition of "slip angle" is much healthier than forced pregernating now you can stop riding the high horse lul
How I'm tryna b in my mr-s
Heard its more difficult to 🅱️ like this bcos those pesky tire manufacturers make the tires too grippy these days
Is it true🤔
@@pricklypear300 no. Depends on the breakaway characteristics. Round shoulder tires are generally ez
Thanks😊 I have so many questions coming to my mind but I know the answers will depend on the many conditions and circumstances... Safe driving!
2:38 so close !!! I would be under so much' pressure
Same, same.
Mr2 countersteers at 1:37
Did you also find Wally in this video?
…and that’s how Takumi Fujiwara beat Shingo in the gum tape death match.
I only know of Shingo lad from the meme clips recommended to me where he diэs what does this mean
Shingo doesn’t die in the race, he wrecked his car and bruised his ego. I highly recommend watching the whole Initial D series and also MF Ghost which is a brand new continuation of Initial D. From the technical side Initial D is extremely well written, as Keiichi Tsuchiya (who is driving in this video) was the main technical advisor to the writers.
Fast drivers in iracing do this all the time
I can see that.
gilles villeneuve
How to destroy your tires 101
I really need to study you men's capability to make everything about yourselves while lowkey self promoting even when watching masters showing their craft while free of having to worry about tyres and stuff, its quite astonishing really
@@pricklypear300 Relax, it's not that serious.
@@hamzterix "its just a joke bro" 🥱
Maybe lay off the 'condescending jokes at other people's expenses' attitude so you can make yourself look more based and important than you really are.
@pricklypear300 Jesus Christ. Let it go. A lot happened in between and I totally moved on. It's a fucking game. Go outside sometimes.
slip angle is not a driving technique slip angle is just the way a cur turns
I know, I know. Please refer to the pinned comment
More like oversteer
👍
slip angle is not a technique i will never get tired of saying it again and again
Go to my comment section, tap "newest" and read some of my latest responses.
in my mind, i like to think that theres only grip and drift, 2 sides of the same coin. A 4 wheel drift is where all 4 tires lose traction in the drift, usually resulting in a drift that leaves tire marks but with no smoke, then slip angle results in a drift without any tire marks left on the road. weight transfer drifting is just using the cars inertia to break traction instead of the handbrake or clutch kick. No countersteer drifting is its own thing though, where you slide the car through a corner while the wheel is at perfect center, only using the gas pedal to turn the car through the corner. You can do a no countersteer drift that doesnt involve slip angle, and i think combining all of them into one thing "weight transfer drifting" is massively oversimplifying what is actually happening with the tires. And even then from what ive seen theres exactly 2 ways of drifting without countersteer. (left turn example) One is when you use application of the gas pedal to slow the clockwise "restoring" rotation of the car from your initial countersteer and returning to grip exactly at the exit. And the other using application of the gas pedal to get the car to rotate counter clockwise as its in the process of regaining grip, just enough to break the traction and still have it close enough to fall back to grip again. I think of these 2 examples as the proper versions of drifting with oversteer and understeer respectively.
I can see what you are saying, but there are always tire marks. Always. In microscopic level, the tire is always leaving rubber on the road. That's how grip is created.
In that context, there is no turning around a corner ever without slip angle being involved. I've said this time and again, slip angle isn't a technique per se, but how tires get warped and slip in a direction not equal to where each of them are pointing towards. So slip angles of each tires are different. By miliseconds.
Now, even with the popular definition of the phrase "slip angle", saying that "no countersteer drift doesn't involve slip angle" doesn't make sense, because for the car to drift, there should be a certain yaw movement of the car during cornering(usually called rotation). That's usually when the slip angles of the rear tires are greater than those of the front tires. The so called slip angle technique is all about using this "rotation" to one's advantage. No countersteer drift falls into this category as well.
You did get the first part about how there is just grip or drift, because DK Tsuchiya Keiichi claimed - if there is any sort of steering correction to catch the car from flowing out(oversteer) then the car has entered into the realm of drifting. If there is no need for correction and the steering angle stays fixed throughout the corner, that's grip. For him, slip angle or whatever, all fell into "drift" category. You might have heard of this.
@MattSzokeLegittt please refer to my comment on the definition of slip angle again. You may have misread it and conflating different meanings... no dissing here I'm just tired of ppl not reading or listening
Even simracing channels that popularised the definition of "slip angle" as this titular magic technique, mentions at first that 'slip angle' is how tires' contact patch differing from its tread patterns etc... I have no idea why it has been twisted to become the go to word to describe this line between two things and whatnot, it's like calling Elizabeth II a politician and trying to make up imaginary things in the head to make her look good as one when she was not supposed to be one at all.
Drift as a means of powering out asap off the apex...? Drift isn't just limited to racing use...? If we're talking about definitions of drift here, there are D1 GP drivers who would like to go sideways all the time without ever regaining grip..
And NO racing driver in the history of ever NOT wanted to accelerate out of the apex as soon as possible no matter what technique they used... do they want to maintain constant speed after passing the clipping points of the corner? No...? They just want to punch the gas and bugger off into the sunset leaving the opponents in their exhaust, that's what they want.
Idk I'll just stop. Thank you for your detailed thoughts on the matter but I'm too exhausted to be nice to anyone including me.
@MattSzokeLegittt If you bring in terms like "lateral G"s and such you have to use "slip angle" correctly as well. Which degree of "slip angle"? Because max lateral G a tire can pull, changes depending on the weight that is exerted on that particular tire and the slip angle of that tire at that very moment in time. Again, slip angle is just a number and not "the best angle".
racing has always been fake words because no one wants to give away their 'secrets' and from when top drivers feel insulted, asked ignorant ass questions from reporters who dont like cars.
I dont think I understand your point here... could you please rephrase
@@pricklypear300 if even only for a moment, i can see when the counter steer happens.
Evo with ayc are the easiest cars to do slipangle.
Looks like it
Congratulations you just noticed it's quicker to corner using rotation and four-wheel drift.
Like every track driver learns on day two.
I learned it on touges and not tracks does that make any difference
@@pricklypear300 makes you a drifter I guess? Sorry for being snarky
No worries❤
weird
?
Calling it "slip angle" is not accurate. Slip angle is the angle between your steering input and how much you're actually steering, it has very little to do with drifting. "4 wheel drift" is a more appropriate name.
If you want to talk about the accuracy in nomenclature, you would have to examine the direction of tyre grooves(or imaginary centre line from front to back if slicks) of all four tyres and the deformation of their contact patch which would indicate their actual directional movement. Each tyre will have different slip angles at any given time when steering input is more than zero, due to the toe settings and lateral weight transfer resulting in difference of load bearing on either side etc etc etc
But lets try explaining it to people who just watched simracing videos on the internet and thinks its just fancy drift technique. Let's not for the sake of our own sanity.
@@pricklypear300 Damn, I just wanted to have my "UM ACKCHUALLY" moment. I'm a keyboard warrior in training, forgive me. I should've gone into more depth on the science of the perfect cornering technique and the chemistry of the tires, and whether or not it's "tires" or "tyres" (which one is it tho?), and whether or not I'm using too many "and"s in this sentence, and if this could be considered a run-on sentence. Anyway, the moral of the story is I am pretty intoxicated right now
@@lordthicknipples-gt2oq and i was having a massive bellyache due to my body being a tosser and was sitting on the toilet being very unhappy ready to let out some filth. So we're basically the same
Did an ai make this music wtf
I can see that lul
want me to ruin your day? this isn't the fastest way to take a corner, if you actually watched best motoring you'd know during time trials they used normal racing technique.
You want to ruin someone's day. That's very you thing to do on a new years day, says a lot about who you are as a person.
And no...? I know what I am saying. The white Supra Mr. Ohi was driving alone at Maze Sea Circuit was showcased as "grip driving" and was in direct response to Tsuchiya Keiichi's "fast drift" technique on a same car. And Ohi was really quicker than Tsuchiya who were doing what would now be regarded as "slip angle" or whatever.
And do you see how they are not alone on the tracks...? Does it click in your little head that these are not... ✌acktchually✌ time attacks...? Tyres wear down and brakes fade. Grip disappear quickly. They do mention that in BM when they are sliding the car around in race conditions. You would know that if you understood what they are saying even if you "watched" it.
Because you were so eager to show you are an insolent prat who likes gotchas from the start, I will escort you out the fkin door. Adieu.
This feeling... is having sex with the car ❤
Idk what it feels like to have nay-nay with a car Liam sorry