I feel like some of the reason why you might want to drift on a touge hairpin is that, althought the time is very close or slower, you can enter the hairpin much faster and lose speed in the drift, which sometimes, in a race, will allow you to get ahead of someone who brakes early, to grip the corner.
To be honest there are only two reasons you drift on touge(not in 4WD im no expert on that) One because its fun and second you can on some certain corners go faster with 4 wheel drifting in RWD. But 99% of the time even 4wheel drifts are slower/equal to regular grip driving
also, when leading on a mountain pass, while the times may be slower drifting a rwd car if the lines are right then you can have some incredible defense by taking up much more of the road while keeping the gap by the apex closed. much harder for clean passes
I feel like documenting the exit speed at the end of the finish line would be very useful as well. Since if the straight is huge any small speed gain will compound for a faster lap
I have seen that in online racing games nobody really drifts, because the exit speed is much more important, that you only get a lot, if you brake for corner and then go full throthel instead of drifting. Drifting looks cool, but its the exit speed from corner, that you will lack with, if you decide to drift.
coming from someone that’s played with fwds at limits irl, the fwd drift only works properly if it’s an inertia drift. you’re relying on the car to load the suspension itself to maximise grip on the longer or shorter corners without sacrificing speed. very hard to get properly right but definitely an advantage. shorter corners like hairpins and such would more rely on the good ol’ Scandinavian flick, this pulls the rear around without flat spotting the tires. again, very hard to get right and i haven’t attempted it many times due to it almost going wrong on me last time i did it. cars :)
I haven’t figured to drift on dry road with my cobalt LT besides doing a slip angle by entering corners with a death wish. Kinda useless though since it’s a stock I4 weighing 3200 lbs
@@ndrb7596 "doing a slip angle"? What does that even mean? You don't do slip angle, tires always have slip angle. Driving at the ideal slip angle is gripping, not drifting.
@@derblaue yeah I haven’t figured to blatantly drift besides a little slip having the nose slightly more inward than a normal entry. Never said it was drifting
in all of these situations, what about that kind of middle point. Using the brakes, weight shifting, and letting the cars 4 wheel drift mid corner where youre still steering in, in most situations. There, youre both sliding into or at the mid point but usually gripping from mid-out. Also, for certain turbo cars, a light slide can help keep engine rpm up and not let the power bog.
So, small angle drifts. F1 drivers do this a lot because you literally get the most traction from the tires at small yaw angles. If I'm remembering correctly the sweet spots are 1-3 degrees on tarmac and something like 6-12 degrees on softer terrain like dirt, gravel and snow. Obviously making sure you have the proper tires for the application.
@Cody Simonson Right, and you can even see that in tv coverage when the rear tracks out a bit. You even see it in ither forms of racing on asphalt too. That being said, Id love to see it compared directly to these and where the +/- point is.
Seems like it's ultimately comes down to how much grip you have/need. Drifting gives you much higher friction compared to grip, so in scenarios where a quick stop-quick launch is possible, it always comes on top. The problem with RWD is that once you initiate a drift, your rear tires stops having grip, making it nigh-impossible to do that quick launch part, while AWD and FWD has the advantage of the front wheels still having ample grip to quickly launch forward after the rear wheels lose grip.
I like to take references from real life. for example, if you watch the old lotus cortina’s racing at good wood, through a majority of the corners, they are four wheel ‘drifting’ with minimal countersteer. This is similar to takumi’s technique, and I have a suspicion this part of the inspiration for it. They are doing it for the same reason as takumi too, since they are driving lower powered cars, they need to maintain as much speed as possible, hence, four wheel ‘drifting’ (its more of a slide than a forced drift)
Old cars had to drift because they were boats that didn't steer. The old tyres being used didn't grip for jack either so you were better off carrying too much speed into the corner and using the inertia. For newer cars this would just be straight up slower with how much more downforce and traction they have.
Tsuchiya’s main inspiration, Kunimitsu Takahashi was also one of the first to drift in racing. It actually was faster back in those days because the tire compounds were not as grippy as they are these days.
IRL it depends on each corner and what corner comes after the corner. In my Ford Escort RS2000 I usually do Grip Racing but if the Corner is really wide I just throw the car in with lift off drift to get as much speed as possible out of the corner, especially when there is a long straight after this corner. While in my 3000GT VR4 i use the E-Brake at slow corners while braking hard too and turn the wheel faster as you usually would do. The back turns out and the front turns into the corner better, because the car has massive weight on the Front with the heavy V6 Iron Cast Twin Turbo engine you would end up with understeer but then the cars 4-wheel steering just give you even more rotation. If you step on the Gas mid corner way before you would do with a 2WD car, you end up with tyre squeeking but an faster lap time. To drive a 4WD Car fast, you need to use the potential of the car and mechanics. Compared to an Evo, which gives more power to the Rear Wheels, the 3000GT VR4 feels more heavy but turns in better and accelerates faster out of the corner due to a way shorter wheelbase and the 4 Wheel Steering. But Evo makes more fun and will have an advantage if there are very different road situations since the AYC-AWD give you less understeer which means you are more safe when driving fast which gives you a better feeling as a driver. This is why many people prefer the Lancer Evo, because the AWD System is so driver friendly and makes lots of fun. If I drive my 3000GT VR4 very hard I may be faster than in my Lan EVO or Escort RS2000, but every corner just feels like I could crash the car if the brakes or 4 Wheel Steering would fail. Because of heavy front weight to VR4 usually turns in better but also wears the tyres off faster which means the Car is good for Time Attack but the longer the race, the less you can get advantages of the car. Same with the Nissan GTR which is also an amazingly fast car but because of the weight you get tyre problems at long distances. Over an 1h Race I would prefer my 50 Years Old Escort RS2000 since the brakes and tyres have no Problems with 800kg weight. The 1800kg GTR or 1700kg 3000GT VR4 will loose Grip after 20 mins of racing at full speed. The Lan Evo, especially the most famous VII, VIII and XI are still 1580kg which is still much weight. On a long distance an Old Lan Evo IV or Impreza GT / GC WRX STI which only 1100kg would be the better car. Thats the reason why Bunta bought the Impreza in the Anime Intial D, since the old Impreza is one of the best cars for road racing on long distances and combines AWD with less weight. There are not many cars like that. Probably the new Toyota Yaris GR is the best fast AWD Car ever build....
So the setup with the most grip is fastest when you drift, the irony in that is just crazy. I assumed that RWD would be the best for drifting, but I guess I was wrong.
In FWD, I feel like there is a magic spot in a turn where you can "tap" the e-brake and use that sweeping rear weight shift for momentum + acceleration to get an even better time than throwing it in, ebraking, and powering out the other side. There is such a fine line in it that it sounds ridiculous, but I swear there has to be a distinction.
Nice video! I like those kind of experiments. Theres a little downside to this though. Despite drifting being faster in some cases, thats only because you're showing the difference in sections. Exit speed matters much more than a corner section and i gotta say you need to work a bit on your trail braking. Gripping is always faster on circuits but what's most important is braking. You can steer however you like but you have to get the best braking approach as possible. That being said if you sacrifice the corner entry for a faster corner exit it will result in a gained time. Drifting is meant for narrow roads with less visibility like the mountain pass but even then the drift you should utilize is grippy and speed concentrated. You purposely have to dive your car into the corner to get a better approach, just like you said in your slip angle video. The drifts you're showing here do get faster entrys but they lose like 20kmh in the mid section, because the car straightens up everytime. I look forward to seeing more videos related to these complicities.
Good video, there are some other cases in which drift might be faster, for example, if you watch a video of a Caterham driving (which is RWD), you will find them four wheel drifting, because they're basically just modernized Lotus 7s. There are also certain circumstances in which a braking drift will allow you to enter and exit certain corners at full throttle, where grip may not.
The theory Ive always gone by is that drifting allows you to keep your momentum in a sense. When you drift through say, a hairpin, you're keeping the constant, albeit slower pace throughout the hairpin, as compared to someone who grips the hairpin but loses a lot of speed in the entry.
Drifting is ALWAYS slower when racing on circuit (asphalt). I mean if it was faster you would see race car drivers doing it. You are right in a sense tho. It`s not exactly drifting though but a technique called "slip angle" and I`m surprised it wasn`t mentioned here. It`s arguably the fastest way of taking a corner.
@@isellcrack3537 you could also argue that cars setup for drifting are potentially faster in some more cases since they are tuned to improve slip angle in corners. As far as I could see he raced the exact same car drifting abd gripping. Which seems logical but might not show the real picture rather drifting is faster in some scenarios with the proper tune. I mean by standard all cars are tuned for grip putting drifting in a disadvantage.
@@redcrafterlppa303 nah as long as we are talking about circuit/asphalt racing. I don`t think drifting is ever faster regardless of what setup you have.
@@isellcrack3537 he literally showed that there are scenarios where it's faster in the video. They may be small but existing. Thus doing it (supposedly) with a car tuned and designed for grip. Also like other comments suggest there are more benefits to drifting than speed.
My view on it is that it's about judgement, drifting can be a helluva lot faster than grip on certain corners, but there are also plenty of corners where drifting isn't necessary and WILL slow you down, plus whatever comes after that, the car itself, and the conditions all determine what is the best course of action. But i also gotta say, using the handbrake to drift is gonna slow you down way more than just using the foot brake
With rwd it's less so whether or not you drift and more so how you drift. You can either do a smoke show or try to just barely reduce grip at the rear then eventually gain it back and floor it with the extra rotation providing a marginally straighter line
drifting in tight corners its better for surviving than for being fast, also drift its only good in rally and touge, fwd drifting isnt recomended, but an oversteery setup its, you dont want to use the handbrake, can you test it and do a video about it?
of course the driving line is the optimal way to go, but personally having a drift prone way of approaching corners, i usually go for a "Driftette", like a slight drift. Maybe closer to dynamic drifting ( See drift Bible ) but always gives me a little more room to patch for errors and/or, other cars and X factors.
Honestly rally is my favorite because you can come in incredibly hot and turn it around so hard that you have to gas it not to like reverse slide off the outside
Fun moment i had with a mate that no one asked for: We were doing some laps around Canberra street circuit in aussie racing cars for fun, we ended up getting into a bit of a battle and kept trying to outbreak eachother untill i accidentally threw the car sideways and passed him on the outside. Was pretty stoked after that (he won the race tho after i bottled it at the final chicane.)
In assetto corsa, if I attack corner sliding like these, in sector 3 my tyres will be cooked. I prefer the clean smooth for sector 1 and 2 then full agressive attack in the last sector. (merc sls gt3 - spa)
with fwd, i just try to let off and do a slight flick into the corner. i dont even use my handbrake when im trying to drift fast (catching a lead car for example), so i virtually never go near it while racing on tarmac. also, flat spots 😅
I was watching and I thought I recognised the song in the background, glad to see someone else listens to Breakcore windows breakcore - proloxx, for anyone wondering
Drifting the RWD need the right timing because if you start to drift too late you go long so you have to slow down more for start one fast drifting, if you start too early the car goes too internal so you risk to lose it, but if you do it at a good speed and start it in a certain point you can exit a bit faster from some corner
In tight corners, particularly hairpins, rally style would be best. They don't have other traffic to worry about and they through real competition know the fastest way. Be interesting to know if the game reflects this reality.
Drifting only works on tight corners or corners with loose surfaces, and it mostly comes down to the time you waste slowing down to grip the corner. There's the four wheel drift but it must be done with speed and lots of inertia, lift off oversteer in FWD is the closest thing you have to four wheel drift for them... but it requires crazy amounts of speed, a proper tuned suspension and a good footwork/weight shifting technique
This is interesting. You should try to see if cars that are prone to under steer(including rwd) are faster inertia drifting or going slightly above cornering force is faster. In my experience it is, but this is also because my car will plow me into a wall if I don’t have enough force on the front tires. Ah and also this is in game for legal purposes and scientific purposes😊
the only thing I could think of use for drifting are for light weight cars with low HP and sports tire. Especially useful trick for first Suzuka circuit corner, Sliding in to the corner hitting the apex then exit wide preparing for the next corner. Mixing combinations of drift and grip I get about 140 kmh exiting first U corner
Their is also a parameter to consider : "setup" adjusting caster camber toe and bumpe steer can make a car go faster with sliding style. But again has you said it is more dificult to be consistent and harder on the tires.
If you can adjust the setup enough, grip will be faster since you can then get rid of the understeer that makes drifting viable in the first part. When you have a car that can be turned in with purely the brakes you can utilise the tires more since they don't slide yet the car rotates enough to be quickly on the throttle again.
cool videos! since i have barely any experience with sim racing (unless you count super shitty GT5 gameplay from when i was like 7) and i'm more familiar with kart racers and TMNF, these are really interesting and give a lot of insight on how this stuff actually works in real life. also the music is really good
You should apply both drift and grip when needed, not just one or the other. Remember, your goal is either to be faster than the other/s or beat a specific time.
I believe Tsuchiya once said that drifting is faster especially when you're driving heavy-weight understeery car such as GTR, as you technically are eliminating any understeer by kicking the back out which would definitely help the car to be faster. And, when it comes to FWD cars, we all know that making the car super oversteery would help the car to rotate better and be faster especially for one lap time trial thing.
If your car is not rotating properly on corner entry, adjust the suspension. Stock, street cars are understeer heavy, because it is "easier" to correct than oversteer, so, the suspension setup is heavily geared towards understeering. If you adjust it (stiffer rear springs, sitter rear swaybar and so forth), the car will rotate better, without sacrificing the tyres (at least too much, to a very manageable level) and forcing you to pit early and too many times. Tehre is a reason why drift courses are separated by "sections" that are never run together in a "lap", and after each section, you have to change your tyres to a new set. So, setup your suspension (and gearing) properly. It will always be better than drifting.
I nearly always forcefully oversteer an all wheel drive car towards the exit and use the added grip to accelerate in racing games, definitely faster than just relying on the grip, especially in fwd or AWD cars where you're prone to understeer a lot, being able to go deeper into the corner and have the nose of the car already pointed to the corner exit does. Can't say it works for fwd or rwd cars tho due to less accelerating grip. However, add the downforce generating elements and now the above method is obsolete
I can say that while you addressed certain aspects of both grip and drift cornering, such as drivetrain configuration, temperatures of both the road and the tyres, and the changing weight of the car due to the consumption of fuel, there are still a couple factors that you forgot to mention, such as the surface type and the power to weight ratio of a car. For example, driving any car into an open hairpin on clay, gravel, or any loose surface warrants drifting the car, as the surface restricts your ability to scrub off speed to take the corner as though it were on dry tarmac. Now, I understand that what you cover is mostly reserved to racing on tarmac, but trying to apply tarmac racing principles to loose surfaces doesn't work, as the surface dictates how you corner. Now, for power to weight, that is a different matter altogether. The reason I bring this up is because a lot of race cars have a much larger power to weight ratio than your average street car. For example, Formula 1 cars (at least, the old V10 banshees from the early 2000s) and American Sprint Cars have similar ratios for power to weight. This means that they can take a variety of corners more aggressively than, say, a Honda NSX or a Ford Mustang. If I'm not mistaken, drifting slightly with either an F1 car or a sprint car actually can work out to faster lap times overall, as the slight drift doesn't scrub off too much speed, and doesn't overheat the tyres, too, while still having the advantage of a faster entry, Apex, and exit. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and would love to know if I'm wrong, along with how I'm wrong, if so.
What if you have really, really bad tires? Would it still be faster to battle all the way trough the corner for the tiniest amount of grip they have to offer, or just let the momentum do its thing until the tires find their grip again?
If you have bad grip then drifting is also going to suffer in terms of performance. We can visualize this through the lenses of driving on ice. If you attempt to grip the ice and begin turning your wheels, your tires will simply slide because there is nothing to grab! Now let’s try taking this corner sideways, you yank the handbrake and your car is now sliding sideways relative to the turn. There is still no grip to be had so you just kinda veer off at the same point but angled differently. Basically bad gripped tires are really gonna struggle to find their grip again when they are stripped in the first place.
I have used bad tires on an FR and seen and advantage to Drift BUT at VERY low angles (more like slip angle driving than Formula D Drifting) and usually to avoid Understeer. I have found it is almost always faster for me, to subdue a car that is oversteering than try to make a car that is understeering corner. This is also a thing for cars with loose suspensions with tons of body roll, preloading the suspension becomes imperative to be fast and the higher level drifting like Braking, Feint, and Lift off drifting teach you how to load you suspension into a corner and all you need to do to keep from wasting speed is NOT swinging you tail out wide and keep from spinning you tires any more that ABSOLUTELY necessary
it's a bit more complicate than that, of course, if you use a racing car on a race track you have no reason to use drift but it comes in handy when doing touge with a lite weight car.
I heard that drifting was invented in Japan in the 1970s by dudes who drove around tight harpins in the mountains and so noticed that drifting was actually faster way to do it and since then drifting has been thing in the world.
nais video :) btw guys! we gotta help tsrbs channel grow, you can unclog the youtube algorithm so it boosts his channel if you clean or clear your watch history of this video after watching it, he deserves the support for all the guides he makes for us pls do it guys if you read this comment
I`m surprised that the "slip angle" technique wasn`t mentioned here o.O edit: even more so when you have in mind that there is a whole video dedicated to this on this channel
Drifting in rwd reduces time because you can’t gain time and recover speed by simply stomping the gas. It ends in continuing the drift. With awd and fwd it’s the opposite. So yeah with those two drive trains if you have the enough feel for the car you can very your corner entry styles
@@smallbutdeadly931 dirt rally doesn't have realistic physics, stop using this game as a reference for rally simulation it's far from it. I agree that beamng already seems much more relevant for this test
And another classic jungle tune. Always drive the same cars I like too. Is it possible we were separated at birth? Me sent to the states while you stayed in England? Time for a DNA test. 😂
If you don't get the car turned in just with the brakes your setup is too understeery (in case you can edit the setup). Drifting can't utilise the full grip of the tires so with the right setup, grip will be faster. But in the case where the setup is locked or nor a lot can be changed, adjust your driving style to compensate the lack of turn in.
Great Video and I Love this channel and how you test test thing but I am gonna make things a bit complicated. Here is the thing that makes this conversation difficult is at what point between Drifting and Griping does it become become Slip Angle driving. Slip angle driving is faster than both, But can be like drifting some times and other times it is more like gripping. So if you use more slip angle driving techniques In more of a "grip" run or more of a "drift" run won't the one with more slip angle style driving utilized be faster?. Also I would like to see this experiment done with low grip or worn out tires and bad suspension with noticeable body roll, I noticed that when I am driving an FR or MR Sim car with these problems my driving style usually has to go more towards the drift side of slip angle driving to make decent times but like you said Tire wear means it can not be done to the extreme or for long periods some time just to get a pass or subdue understeer
There's no such thing as "slip angle driving" unfortunately ua-cam.com/video/P_PDkWtvyFs/v-deo.html But if you mean slightly over the limit of grip, but not yet sliding, that is essentially being fast whilst gripping.
also i think you should have mentioned how track surface material can have an impact. Theres a reason rally drivers dritfi around everywhere and it has nothing to do with the car. on dirt and looser materials drifting is basically nessecary to keep the car on the road at high speed because theres way less grip.
rwd is what you use when you want to keep drifting in a drift competition or something, where you want to link as many corners as possible and even drift on straights. which is obviously not faster than grip when it comes to actual speed, you want grip on the road whether drifting or not. because even if you're drifting, you still want to grip as quickly as possibly after the corner and awd has that push to just go (rally drivers drifting on tarmac hairpins for example)
using the handbrake to start the drift slows you down a lot you got to use the regular break to initiate the drift its so much faster it was how i raced in online lobbies while keeping it clean and still winning if you drift the corner you break time compared to other drivers is much shorter so if your ahead you can bullet into corners and prevent overtakes in the corners handbrake drifting will also cause you to get rear ended in a race and isn't safe also you cant apply counter steer while drifting you have to turn with the throttle and align the car with it counter steer heavily reduces speed just letting people know incase they want to try doing this its something I learned while doing multiple time runs to beat some of the higher grip runs around and my own grip runs i shave about 2-3 seconds off my time compared to doing a grip run it works in gran Turismo assetto Corsa and Forza so it should be possible in any decent sim game just letting people know incase they want to change up their style only issue is that you have to play manual cant have abs or traction control and if you aren't used to it you'll slide your way to Jesus anyways you have to really understand where your car will end up because you cant put counter steering so you have to have really good throttle control
Everyone have their own thought. But for me . Front wheel car isnt doing drift , that is power slide . Cuz u accel , front will always follow the direction of steering and sometime might go straight even we steer it to right/left cuz no traction and 100% most of time steer is same direction of corner . While for rear wheel car , On corner and u accel , rear tyre will spin and make it lose traction and that when drift happen . Car want to go forward but limited traction on back so it slide and 100% steering will opposite of corner direction . But it different on 4wd car. The steering direction is depend from car power . U accel on corner and all 4 tyre lost traction and it slide opposite of corner and we apply same car direction as corner to make it slide more toward all the way of road . There can be inertia drift that happen cuz of weight of car . And a drift that happen cuz tyre spin cuz accel . Horsepower and torque play huge role on drift . Many thing need to take into account . But still , sometime it good to drift and sometime it good to grip . All of that depend from car tune and config and even driver skill itself .
its the way you use a drift and grip is what makes it faster, both arent faster than each other. that being said, being in the fine line of drifting and grip is probably the fastest, being able to slow down the least, turn the fastest, will mean you can take corners faster than your opponents, exit faster than them aswell. but once you mastered the track, the car, and the opponent as well, it will eventually come down to strategy. entering a corner faster at a sacrifice of exiting it slower can mean you can overtake the opponent if you can sacrifice the grip. in this type of strat, a car that oversteers and is nimble is better, like max verstrappens F1 car. or if after the corner seems like a long straightway, and if the opponent is distracted by not letting you overtake him on the first straight before the corner, you can sacrifice the entry speed for a quicker turn, and exit faster, and accelerate faster aswell. like takumi :p honestly man before i got interested in racing, i just thought about it as who can finish the fastest, but its actually wayy more than that and thats cool :p
I feel like some of the reason why you might want to drift on a touge hairpin is that, althought the time is very close or slower, you can enter the hairpin much faster and lose speed in the drift, which sometimes, in a race, will allow you to get ahead of someone who brakes early, to grip the corner.
To be honest there are only two reasons you drift on touge(not in 4WD im no expert on that) One because its fun and second you can on some certain corners go faster with 4 wheel drifting in RWD. But 99% of the time even 4wheel drifts are slower/equal to regular grip driving
also, when leading on a mountain pass, while the times may be slower drifting a rwd car if the lines are right then you can have some incredible defense by taking up much more of the road while keeping the gap by the apex closed. much harder for clean passes
@@mintango9087 True. But it is a veeeery risky move. Looking at how severly it will backfire if you mess up even a little bit.
Clutch kicks?
@@strzelamcementemzlokcia1030 touge races are all about the risk. They're never not dangerous!
I feel like documenting the exit speed at the end of the finish line would be very useful as well. Since if the straight is huge any small speed gain will compound for a faster lap
I have seen that in online racing games nobody really drifts, because the exit speed is much more important, that you only get a lot, if you brake for corner and then go full throthel instead of drifting. Drifting looks cool, but its the exit speed from corner, that you will lack with, if you decide to drift.
coming from someone that’s played with fwds at limits irl, the fwd drift only works properly if it’s an inertia drift. you’re relying on the car to load the suspension itself to maximise grip on the longer or shorter corners without sacrificing speed. very hard to get properly right but definitely an advantage. shorter corners like hairpins and such would more rely on the good ol’ Scandinavian flick, this pulls the rear around without flat spotting the tires. again, very hard to get right and i haven’t attempted it many times due to it almost going wrong on me last time i did it. cars :)
And also the flick is way better in loose surfaces than tarmac.
I haven’t figured to drift on dry road with my cobalt LT besides doing a slip angle by entering corners with a death wish. Kinda useless though since it’s a stock I4 weighing 3200 lbs
@@ndrb7596 3200...damn
@@ndrb7596 "doing a slip angle"? What does that even mean? You don't do slip angle, tires always have slip angle. Driving at the ideal slip angle is gripping, not drifting.
@@derblaue yeah I haven’t figured to blatantly drift besides a little slip having the nose slightly more inward than a normal entry. Never said it was drifting
proof that Bunta knew all along.
Honestly, drifting isn't done to go faster, but instead, people drift for fun.
Short, precise and accurate. Thank you for your content (now make a Cobra maneuver tutorial for a MIG-21)
maybe after how to not die in a flat spin or save yourself from a stall in a mig-21
For me drifting is useful when I made an overtake and then immediately defend/blocking
There’s nothing more satisfying than accidentally sliding through a corner and shaving a few tenths of a second off
if you enjoy that feeling, you should play dirt rally 2.0 :)
@@martyguild Yes, that game is so fun, especially with a wheel.
in all of these situations, what about that kind of middle point. Using the brakes, weight shifting, and letting the cars 4 wheel drift mid corner where youre still steering in, in most situations. There, youre both sliding into or at the mid point but usually gripping from mid-out. Also, for certain turbo cars, a light slide can help keep engine rpm up and not let the power bog.
So, small angle drifts. F1 drivers do this a lot because you literally get the most traction from the tires at small yaw angles. If I'm remembering correctly the sweet spots are 1-3 degrees on tarmac and something like 6-12 degrees on softer terrain like dirt, gravel and snow. Obviously making sure you have the proper tires for the application.
@Cody Simonson Right, and you can even see that in tv coverage when the rear tracks out a bit. You even see it in ither forms of racing on asphalt too. That being said, Id love to see it compared directly to these and where the +/- point is.
Isn't that basically slip angle? He has multiple videos on that being the fastest way through a corner
@Demonrox122 Right but I want to see that compared directly with this to kinda gauge it on an even keel
True but every corner is defined by what's coming after it. We should compare exit speed for straights and car placement for the next corner
Seems like it's ultimately comes down to how much grip you have/need. Drifting gives you much higher friction compared to grip, so in scenarios where a quick stop-quick launch is possible, it always comes on top. The problem with RWD is that once you initiate a drift, your rear tires stops having grip, making it nigh-impossible to do that quick launch part, while AWD and FWD has the advantage of the front wheels still having ample grip to quickly launch forward after the rear wheels lose grip.
I like to take references from real life. for example, if you watch the old lotus cortina’s racing at good wood, through a majority of the corners, they are four wheel ‘drifting’ with minimal countersteer. This is similar to takumi’s technique, and I have a suspicion this part of the inspiration for it. They are doing it for the same reason as takumi too, since they are driving lower powered cars, they need to maintain as much speed as possible, hence, four wheel ‘drifting’ (its more of a slide than a forced drift)
Harder tires is also conducive to this
@@arinb.756 First person I see to have mentioned this. 80s/90s tires are a joke compared to the extremely sticky compounds we have today.
Old cars had to drift because they were boats that didn't steer. The old tyres being used didn't grip for jack either so you were better off carrying too much speed into the corner and using the inertia. For newer cars this would just be straight up slower with how much more downforce and traction they have.
@@Delimon007 thats what my point was, how drifting is faster for older cars
Tsuchiya’s main inspiration, Kunimitsu Takahashi was also one of the first to drift in racing. It actually was faster back in those days because the tire compounds were not as grippy as they are these days.
IRL it depends on each corner and what corner comes after the corner. In my Ford Escort RS2000 I usually do Grip Racing but if the Corner is really wide I just throw the car in with lift off drift to get as much speed as possible out of the corner, especially when there is a long straight after this corner. While in my 3000GT VR4 i use the E-Brake at slow corners while braking hard too and turn the wheel faster as you usually would do. The back turns out and the front turns into the corner better, because the car has massive weight on the Front with the heavy V6 Iron Cast Twin Turbo engine you would end up with understeer but then the cars 4-wheel steering just give you even more rotation. If you step on the Gas mid corner way before you would do with a 2WD car, you end up with tyre squeeking but an faster lap time. To drive a 4WD Car fast, you need to use the potential of the car and mechanics. Compared to an Evo, which gives more power to the Rear Wheels, the 3000GT VR4 feels more heavy but turns in better and accelerates faster out of the corner due to a way shorter wheelbase and the 4 Wheel Steering. But Evo makes more fun and will have an advantage if there are very different road situations since the AYC-AWD give you less understeer which means you are more safe when driving fast which gives you a better feeling as a driver. This is why many people prefer the Lancer Evo, because the AWD System is so driver friendly and makes lots of fun. If I drive my 3000GT VR4 very hard I may be faster than in my Lan EVO or Escort RS2000, but every corner just feels like I could crash the car if the brakes or 4 Wheel Steering would fail. Because of heavy front weight to VR4 usually turns in better but also wears the tyres off faster which means the Car is good for Time Attack but the longer the race, the less you can get advantages of the car. Same with the Nissan GTR which is also an amazingly fast car but because of the weight you get tyre problems at long distances. Over an 1h Race I would prefer my 50 Years Old Escort RS2000 since the brakes and tyres have no Problems with 800kg weight. The 1800kg GTR or 1700kg 3000GT VR4 will loose Grip after 20 mins of racing at full speed. The Lan Evo, especially the most famous VII, VIII and XI are still 1580kg which is still much weight. On a long distance an Old Lan Evo IV or Impreza GT / GC WRX STI which only 1100kg would be the better car. Thats the reason why Bunta bought the Impreza in the Anime Intial D, since the old Impreza is one of the best cars for road racing on long distances and combines AWD with less weight. There are not many cars like that. Probably the new Toyota Yaris GR is the best fast AWD Car ever build....
So the setup with the most grip is fastest when you drift, the irony in that is just crazy. I assumed that RWD would be the best for drifting, but I guess I was wrong.
It is best for drifting. But for beginners, since you don't have a lot to do make the car go under-steer.
you're the man! your videos never dissapoint
In FWD, I feel like there is a magic spot in a turn where you can "tap" the e-brake and use that sweeping rear weight shift for momentum + acceleration to get an even better time than throwing it in, ebraking, and powering out the other side. There is such a fine line in it that it sounds ridiculous, but I swear there has to be a distinction.
Nice video! I like those kind of experiments. Theres a little downside to this though. Despite drifting being faster in some cases, thats only because you're showing the difference in sections. Exit speed matters much more than a corner section and i gotta say you need to work a bit on your trail braking. Gripping is always faster on circuits but what's most important is braking. You can steer however you like but you have to get the best braking approach as possible. That being said if you sacrifice the corner entry for a faster corner exit it will result in a gained time. Drifting is meant for narrow roads with less visibility like the mountain pass but even then the drift you should utilize is grippy and speed concentrated. You purposely have to dive your car into the corner to get a better approach, just like you said in your slip angle video. The drifts you're showing here do get faster entrys but they lose like 20kmh in the mid section, because the car straightens up everytime. I look forward to seeing more videos related to these complicities.
Good video, there are some other cases in which drift might be faster, for example, if you watch a video of a Caterham driving (which is RWD), you will find them four wheel drifting, because they're basically just modernized Lotus 7s. There are also certain circumstances in which a braking drift will allow you to enter and exit certain corners at full throttle, where grip may not.
I think he talked about this in an older video, with a BMW 2002...
1:45 You sneaky and smart bloke.
The theory Ive always gone by is that drifting allows you to keep your momentum in a sense. When you drift through say, a hairpin, you're keeping the constant, albeit slower pace throughout the hairpin, as compared to someone who grips the hairpin but loses a lot of speed in the entry.
Drifting is ALWAYS slower when racing on circuit (asphalt). I mean if it was faster you would see race car drivers doing it. You are right in a sense tho. It`s not exactly drifting though but a technique called "slip angle" and I`m surprised it wasn`t mentioned here. It`s arguably the fastest way of taking a corner.
@@isellcrack3537 you could also argue that cars setup for drifting are potentially faster in some more cases since they are tuned to improve slip angle in corners.
As far as I could see he raced the exact same car drifting abd gripping. Which seems logical but might not show the real picture rather drifting is faster in some scenarios with the proper tune. I mean by standard all cars are tuned for grip putting drifting in a disadvantage.
if your on a moutain or rally drift is the answer
@@redcrafterlppa303 nah as long as we are talking about circuit/asphalt racing. I don`t think drifting is ever faster regardless of what setup you have.
@@isellcrack3537 he literally showed that there are scenarios where it's faster in the video. They may be small but existing. Thus doing it (supposedly) with a car tuned and designed for grip. Also like other comments suggest there are more benefits to drifting than speed.
yeah, sim racing channels are usually so serious, this i dont mind watching
Well drifting in a rwd slowdown the tires that are giving you traction so it seems pretty logical
My view on it is that it's about judgement, drifting can be a helluva lot faster than grip on certain corners, but there are also plenty of corners where drifting isn't necessary and WILL slow you down, plus whatever comes after that, the car itself, and the conditions all determine what is the best course of action.
But i also gotta say, using the handbrake to drift is gonna slow you down way more than just using the foot brake
With rwd it's less so whether or not you drift and more so how you drift. You can either do a smoke show or try to just barely reduce grip at the rear then eventually gain it back and floor it with the extra rotation providing a marginally straighter line
Thanks for te content, i always use your videos to improve my driving to go further in the FB Championships i take part in Gran turismo 2
This channel is criminally underated
I know all his videos and the context of the video. I do but I still watch. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Summary ROTATION
drifting in tight corners its better for surviving than for being fast, also drift its only good in rally and touge, fwd drifting isnt recomended, but an oversteery setup its, you dont want to use the handbrake, can you test it and do a video about it?
Except for inertia drift or 4 wheel drifts. Pushing the car beyond its front grip level and added rotation to corner exit
0:07 Takeshi Nakazato: _(gets crossed)_ "NANI?!"
Takumi and keiichi are gonna be furious after watching this video.
of course the driving line is the optimal way to go, but personally having a drift prone way of approaching corners, i usually go for a "Driftette", like a slight drift. Maybe closer
to dynamic drifting ( See drift Bible ) but always gives me a little more room to patch for errors and/or, other cars and X factors.
I'm about to head out in my 6 MPS and drift every single hairpin on a road. Thanks Sim Bloke!
As per usual in life, the key is moderation. Using both in appropriate scenarios is better then sticking to one thing religiously.
Honestly rally is my favorite because you can come in incredibly hot and turn it around so hard that you have to gas it not to like reverse slide off the outside
Fun moment i had with a mate that no one asked for:
We were doing some laps around Canberra street circuit in aussie racing cars for fun, we ended up getting into a bit of a battle and kept trying to outbreak eachother untill i accidentally threw the car sideways and passed him on the outside. Was pretty stoked after that (he won the race tho after i bottled it at the final chicane.)
R.D.J. is defintely all wheel drive, in case you were wondering. He came out of that hairpin with a definite lead. Entering with style
In assetto corsa, if I attack corner sliding like these, in sector 3 my tyres will be cooked. I prefer the clean smooth for sector 1 and 2 then full agressive attack in the last sector. (merc sls gt3 - spa)
with fwd, i just try to let off and do a slight flick into the corner. i dont even use my handbrake when im trying to drift fast (catching a lead car for example), so i virtually never go near it while racing on tarmac. also, flat spots 😅
I was watching and I thought I recognised the song in the background, glad to see someone else listens to Breakcore
windows breakcore - proloxx, for anyone wondering
Drifting the RWD need the right timing because if you start to drift too late you go long so you have to slow down more for start one fast drifting, if you start too early the car goes too internal so you risk to lose it, but if you do it at a good speed and start it in a certain point you can exit a bit faster from some corner
What’s the song at 0:54 with the windows boot-up song in the background? Sounds like some awesome drum’n’bass!
In tight corners, particularly hairpins, rally style would be best. They don't have other traffic to worry about and they through real competition know the fastest way. Be interesting to know if the game reflects this reality.
Drifting only works on tight corners or corners with loose surfaces, and it mostly comes down to the time you waste slowing down to grip the corner. There's the four wheel drift but it must be done with speed and lots of inertia, lift off oversteer in FWD is the closest thing you have to four wheel drift for them... but it requires crazy amounts of speed, a proper tuned suspension and a good footwork/weight shifting technique
This is interesting. You should try to see if cars that are prone to under steer(including rwd) are faster inertia drifting or going slightly above cornering force is faster. In my experience it is, but this is also because my car will plow me into a wall if I don’t have enough force on the front tires. Ah and also this is in game for legal purposes and scientific purposes😊
the only thing I could think of use for drifting are for light weight cars with low HP and sports tire. Especially useful trick for first Suzuka circuit corner, Sliding in to the corner hitting the apex then exit wide preparing for the next corner. Mixing combinations of drift and grip I get about 140 kmh exiting first U corner
Their is also a parameter to consider : "setup" adjusting caster camber toe and bumpe steer can make a car go faster with sliding style. But again has you said it is more dificult to be consistent and harder on the tires.
If you can adjust the setup enough, grip will be faster since you can then get rid of the understeer that makes drifting viable in the first part. When you have a car that can be turned in with purely the brakes you can utilise the tires more since they don't slide yet the car rotates enough to be quickly on the throttle again.
you got me, i rolled my eyes when i read the title😮💨
cool videos! since i have barely any experience with sim racing (unless you count super shitty GT5 gameplay from when i was like 7) and i'm more familiar with kart racers and TMNF, these are really interesting and give a lot of insight on how this stuff actually works in real life.
also the music is really good
grip of course but a bit of oversteer can help sometimes
You should apply both drift and grip when needed, not just one or the other. Remember, your goal is either to be faster than the other/s or beat a specific time.
This. There's a time and place for both
I believe Tsuchiya once said that drifting is faster especially when you're driving heavy-weight understeery car such as GTR, as you technically are eliminating any understeer by kicking the back out which would definitely help the car to be faster. And, when it comes to FWD cars, we all know that making the car super oversteery would help the car to rotate better and be faster especially for one lap time trial thing.
your editing is sick
great video! made me understand grip vs. drift much better. love your channel
Great video !
Thanks!
"life biggest questions now I know some of you are rolling your eyes right now of course griff"
-captions
wonderful video!
Thank you!
If your car is not rotating properly on corner entry, adjust the suspension.
Stock, street cars are understeer heavy, because it is "easier" to correct than oversteer, so, the suspension setup is heavily geared towards understeering.
If you adjust it (stiffer rear springs, sitter rear swaybar and so forth), the car will rotate better, without sacrificing the tyres (at least too much, to a very manageable level) and forcing you to pit early and too many times.
Tehre is a reason why drift courses are separated by "sections" that are never run together in a "lap", and after each section, you have to change your tyres to a new set.
So, setup your suspension (and gearing) properly. It will always be better than drifting.
I nearly always forcefully oversteer an all wheel drive car towards the exit and use the added grip to accelerate in racing games, definitely faster than just relying on the grip, especially in fwd or AWD cars where you're prone to understeer a lot, being able to go deeper into the corner and have the nose of the car already pointed to the corner exit does. Can't say it works for fwd or rwd cars tho due to less accelerating grip. However, add the downforce generating elements and now the above method is obsolete
They did this on hot version and I remember keichi said it just depends on a car setup if if drift or grip is faste
Not watched the vid yet, only clicked on it seconds ago, but I can answer right away: It depends.
Loving the 90s racer music
What about road material, wheel base and with, and wheyght/wheyght balance?
If 3blue1brown has taught me anything, you start using calculus and get a continuous spectrum for your car and corner types
Congratulations sir, you just earned a subscriber
What about slip angle? Is that what u did in the "grip part"? or would that be the fastest?
I can say that while you addressed certain aspects of both grip and drift cornering, such as drivetrain configuration, temperatures of both the road and the tyres, and the changing weight of the car due to the consumption of fuel, there are still a couple factors that you forgot to mention, such as the surface type and the power to weight ratio of a car. For example, driving any car into an open hairpin on clay, gravel, or any loose surface warrants drifting the car, as the surface restricts your ability to scrub off speed to take the corner as though it were on dry tarmac. Now, I understand that what you cover is mostly reserved to racing on tarmac, but trying to apply tarmac racing principles to loose surfaces doesn't work, as the surface dictates how you corner.
Now, for power to weight, that is a different matter altogether. The reason I bring this up is because a lot of race cars have a much larger power to weight ratio than your average street car. For example, Formula 1 cars (at least, the old V10 banshees from the early 2000s) and American Sprint Cars have similar ratios for power to weight. This means that they can take a variety of corners more aggressively than, say, a Honda NSX or a Ford Mustang. If I'm not mistaken, drifting slightly with either an F1 car or a sprint car actually can work out to faster lap times overall, as the slight drift doesn't scrub off too much speed, and doesn't overheat the tyres, too, while still having the advantage of a faster entry, Apex, and exit.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and would love to know if I'm wrong, along with how I'm wrong, if so.
5:10 Only if I could change AW to FW in middle of Race according to the Corner 😂
What if you have really, really bad tires? Would it still be faster to battle all the way trough the corner for the tiniest amount of grip they have to offer, or just let the momentum do its thing until the tires find their grip again?
If you have bad grip then drifting is also going to suffer in terms of performance.
We can visualize this through the lenses of driving on ice. If you attempt to grip the ice and begin turning your wheels, your tires will simply slide because there is nothing to grab!
Now let’s try taking this corner sideways, you yank the handbrake and your car is now sliding sideways relative to the turn. There is still no grip to be had so you just kinda veer off at the same point but angled differently.
Basically bad gripped tires are really gonna struggle to find their grip again when they are stripped in the first place.
I have used bad tires on an FR and seen and advantage to Drift BUT at VERY low angles (more like slip angle driving than Formula D Drifting) and usually to avoid Understeer. I have found it is almost always faster for me, to subdue a car that is oversteering than try to make a car that is understeering corner. This is also a thing for cars with loose suspensions with tons of body roll, preloading the suspension becomes imperative to be fast and the higher level drifting like Braking, Feint, and Lift off drifting teach you how to load you suspension into a corner and all you need to do to keep from wasting speed is NOT swinging you tail out wide and keep from spinning you tires any more that ABSOLUTELY necessary
Just wanna say this...The awd drift was slightly off the track. Would that take away time?
it's a bit more complicate than that, of course, if you use a racing car on a race track you have no reason to use drift but it comes in handy when doing touge with a lite weight car.
I heard that drifting was invented in Japan in the 1970s by dudes who drove around tight harpins in the mountains and so noticed that drifting was actually faster way to do it and since then drifting has been thing in the world.
nais video :) btw guys! we gotta help tsrbs channel grow, you can unclog the youtube algorithm so it boosts his channel if you clean or clear your watch history of this video after watching it, he deserves the support for all the guides he makes for us pls do it guys if you read this comment
Missed opportunity to use "GRIP vs SLIP"
How much of a difference it would make compare this symmetrical awd to the ATTESA system?
I`m surprised that the "slip angle" technique wasn`t mentioned here o.O
edit: even more so when you have in mind that there is a whole video dedicated to this on this channel
Perhaps you might want to watch this slip angle video xd ua-cam.com/video/P_PDkWtvyFs/v-deo.html
Love the use of intelligent drum n bass
52 seconds and then we’re drifting a front wheel drive civic
Drifting in rwd reduces time because you can’t gain time and recover speed by simply stomping the gas. It ends in continuing the drift. With awd and fwd it’s the opposite. So yeah with those two drive trains if you have the enough feel for the car you can very your corner entry styles
What is the name of that "windows 95 startup remix" where is Civic?
Me switching between fwd,awd,rwd mid race depending on which corner is next 😈
I watched the rally race and my answer is " it depends "
u explained it well, kids can understand.
You should have tried a gravel corner aswell
I wanted to, but the gravel physics aren't great in Assetto. Besides, sliding will almost always be faster on a loose surface.
Could try it out in a rally game, like Dirt Rally 2.0
@@TSRB you could try it in beamng
@@smallbutdeadly931 dirt rally doesn't have realistic physics, stop using this game as a reference for rally simulation it's far from it.
I agree that beamng already seems much more relevant for this test
@@chopsuey4698 beamng's physics aint great either the only real rally sim is Rbr
drifting tends to be slower when you dont know how to drift
And another classic jungle tune. Always drive the same cars I like too. Is it possible we were separated at birth? Me sent to the states while you stayed in England? Time for a DNA test. 😂
🤝
This guy made tutorial entertaining by the edits
If you don't get the car turned in just with the brakes your setup is too understeery (in case you can edit the setup). Drifting can't utilise the full grip of the tires so with the right setup, grip will be faster. But in the case where the setup is locked or nor a lot can be changed, adjust your driving style to compensate the lack of turn in.
When I'm single laning in fwd, it's faster on the slowest hairpins, but maybe its a skill issue
You mind sharing your cam settings?
Great Video and I Love this channel and how you test test thing but I am gonna make things a bit complicated. Here is the thing that makes this conversation difficult is at what point between Drifting and Griping does it become become Slip Angle driving. Slip angle driving is faster than both, But can be like drifting some times and other times it is more like gripping. So if you use more slip angle driving techniques In more of a "grip" run or more of a "drift" run won't the one with more slip angle style driving utilized be faster?. Also I would like to see this experiment done with low grip or worn out tires and bad suspension with noticeable body roll, I noticed that when I am driving an FR or MR Sim car with these problems my driving style usually has to go more towards the drift side of slip angle driving to make decent times but like you said Tire wear means it can not be done to the extreme or for long periods some time just to get a pass or subdue understeer
There's no such thing as "slip angle driving" unfortunately ua-cam.com/video/P_PDkWtvyFs/v-deo.html
But if you mean slightly over the limit of grip, but not yet sliding, that is essentially being fast whilst gripping.
also i think you should have mentioned how track surface material can have an impact. Theres a reason rally drivers dritfi around everywhere and it has nothing to do with the car. on dirt and looser materials drifting is basically nessecary to keep the car on the road at high speed because theres way less grip.
could someone please tell me what circuit hes on in the first few clips?
rwd is what you use when you want to keep drifting in a drift competition or something, where you want to link as many corners as possible and even drift on straights. which is obviously not faster than grip
when it comes to actual speed, you want grip on the road whether drifting or not. because even if you're drifting, you still want to grip as quickly as possibly after the corner and awd has that push to just go (rally drivers drifting on tarmac hairpins for example)
can anyone give me the song ID whe he tests the civic? would be much appreciated!
using the handbrake to start the drift slows you down a lot you got to use the regular break to initiate the drift its so much faster it was how i raced in online lobbies while keeping it clean and still winning if you drift the corner you break time compared to other drivers is much shorter so if your ahead you can bullet into corners and prevent overtakes in the corners handbrake drifting will also cause you to get rear ended in a race and isn't safe also you cant apply counter steer while drifting you have to turn with the throttle and align the car with it counter steer heavily reduces speed just letting people know incase they want to try doing this its something I learned while doing multiple time runs to beat some of the higher grip runs around and my own grip runs i shave about 2-3 seconds off my time compared to doing a grip run it works in gran Turismo assetto Corsa and Forza so it should be possible in any decent sim game just letting people know incase they want to change up their style only issue is that you have to play manual cant have abs or traction control and if you aren't used to it you'll slide your way to Jesus anyways you have to really understand where your car will end up because you cant put counter steering so you have to have really good throttle control
This music is absolutely poppin
This didn’t talk about true drifting or rwd all tires sliding, in that case you aren’t really correcting the slide all wheels are pointed straight
Everyone have their own thought. But for me . Front wheel car isnt doing drift , that is power slide . Cuz u accel , front will always follow the direction of steering and sometime might go straight even we steer it to right/left cuz no traction and 100% most of time steer is same direction of corner . While for rear wheel car , On corner and u accel , rear tyre will spin and make it lose traction and that when drift happen . Car want to go forward but limited traction on back so it slide and 100% steering will opposite of corner direction . But it different on 4wd car. The steering direction is depend from car power . U accel on corner and all 4 tyre lost traction and it slide opposite of corner and we apply same car direction as corner to make it slide more toward all the way of road . There can be inertia drift that happen cuz of weight of car . And a drift that happen cuz tyre spin cuz accel . Horsepower and torque play huge role on drift . Many thing need to take into account . But still , sometime it good to drift and sometime it good to grip . All of that depend from car tune and config and even driver skill itself .
its the way you use a drift and grip is what makes it faster, both arent faster than each other.
that being said, being in the fine line of drifting and grip is probably the fastest, being able to slow down the least, turn the fastest, will mean you can take corners faster than your opponents, exit faster than them aswell.
but once you mastered the track, the car, and the opponent as well, it will eventually come down to strategy.
entering a corner faster at a sacrifice of exiting it slower can mean you can overtake the opponent if you can sacrifice the grip.
in this type of strat, a car that oversteers and is nimble is better, like max verstrappens F1 car.
or if after the corner seems like a long straightway, and if the opponent is distracted by not letting you overtake him on the first straight before the corner, you can sacrifice the entry speed for a quicker turn, and exit faster, and accelerate faster aswell. like takumi :p
honestly man before i got interested in racing, i just thought about it as who can finish the fastest, but its actually wayy more than that and thats cool :p