After having watching nearly the whole video... I just realized how entertained I am by looking at an instructional video of something I will never have any practical use of or even do my self. I'm still enthusiastically click your videos for reasons I have no idea.
How the "both palms facing down" grip works? Use you legs - use it a lot. One palm up and one palm down, while ideal for range and strikes that cover a lot more ground, limits the stick movement to one side of your body, while the former grip allows more neutral stances that can have the opponent guessing which side of the staff will strike. It's perfect when it's a little too close for polearm range, and you can make quick upward parries and downward strikes. You can pressure the opponent by striking and parrying in quick succession at a closer range in this manner. Of course, you have to revert to a polearm grip when disengaged and at afar. In the context of boxing, using the polearm grip is akin to someone fighting from the outside, jabbing, crossing, and making occasional hooks; the both palms downward grip is a lot like a boxer fighting up close, who covers up while throwing those brutal hooks and uppercuts to overwhelm the opponent. This took a while to type, as I had a cat sleeping on one arm.
Something else that lindy didn't mention here (but which *is* demonstrated in the treatise pictures he shows) is that you can still slide your hands around in the two palms down grip, and even switch from two palms down to one-and-one very rapidly. For instance you could still do the battering ram thrust he talked about with two palms down, or you could slide your hands up to strike with the back end if you found that advantageous. And on the flip side of that, you can still hold the polearm at thirds using a polearm grip defensively, or use that shorter bit below your hands to block and thrust with and force someone back into pole range. But yes, generally speaking, I've found the polearm grip better for range and the other grip better for in close. The thing I really like about this device is its sheer versatility. It may not be as good at cracking helmets open as more specialized polearms, but it can do a hell of a lot of things from any given position, and the element of surprise inherent in this type of weapon makes opponents leery of fighting you, because they don't know what you're liable to do. A shove, a thrust, a flurry of attacks from both ends, a massive hammer-strike...the list goes on. To be honest, I think the only reason the quarterstaff *wasn't* a battlefield weapon is because, by the time armor developed to a point they didn't need shields to protect you from a hail of arrows, it had developed beyond the point that a quarterstaff would do much good against a similarly-armored opponent. But on the other hand, if you put pointy or slashy bits on the end of a staff, well, it can stab or smack things more effectively but still be a staff.
The one palm facing down and one up is not predictable like you say, to strike the other way ur supposed to let go 1 hand and strike with 1 hand, while it may seem that since ur swinging with 1 hand is weaker its actually stronger.
@@Nurk0m0rath I imagine that's part of it. I imagine that another part of it is that it's not particularly hard to go from a quarterstaff to a pointed spear, which is almost just as versatile as a quarterstaff while being far more effective against armored opponents. Obviously, the spear was one of the earliest weapons of war and remained relevant even as firearms started catching on. When it comes to melee weapons of war, it's really really difficult to top the effectiveness and cost efficiency of the spear.
Thank you for this. I like everything that you are saying here, (Arthurian society *is* much better!) As an archaeologist I wanted to add context: During the time when this weapon was popular, the majority of soldiers were farmers. For people in a re-enactment society it can be hard to imagine just how strong the grip of a man who grows up working the fields.. with his hands, can be. The "double down" hold does have the "thumb weakness" for those that have never wrestled with livestock. It does not take long to find, with an animal that is larger than you, that there are times to force and times to give. If you give with your weaker hand the dominant hand becomes a fulcrum. It is interesting, (and quite natural) for a weapon's technique to adapt to the user; the danger is presuming that everyone is like us.
Not a quarterstaff, but similar idea: A general rule of outdoor survival is that if you are going to make a walking stick or hunting spear, you should always use a branch that's taller than yourself so you don't accidentally impale yourself on the pole. I'm sure this premise can be brought over to quarterstaves, making the assumption that the staff should be around 1 foot taller than the user a feasible and reasonable solution.
I practice Japanese martial arts, and we use staves of various lengths: the bo (also known as the rokushakubo), which is about 6 shaku (feet) long; the jo, which is about 4 feet in length (The SMR "standard" jo is exactly 4.21 shaku); and the hanbo (half bo), which is 3 feet long. Being considerably taller than the average Japanese of the Edo period, my personal weapons are based on my body dimensions, rather than standard units: my bo is one "head" taller than I am, my jo comes up to my armpits, and my hanbo is half the length of my bo.
A walking stick taller than oneself would be really impractical. From my experience the ideal walking stick length is between waist height and shoulder height.
@@Bipbiprna In Japan, long walking sticks are common, especially among mendicant monks. See for example: i.pinimg.com/originals/42/18/61/4218615a3f52d4a0e2c354076ac46922.jpg and: l7.alamy.com/zooms/69af4ee124994f95809688606e24306a/buddhist-pilgrim-monk-near-the-kiyomizu-dera-temple-in-kyoto-japan-be68x9.jpg
Musashi beaten all his opponents but lost to a man with a stick... he even beaten his strongest rival with a stick,and he died with a stick... the power of the stick man...
That would be the legend of Musō Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi. He dueled Musashi with a long bo, was defeated, spared by Musashi and went into seclusion for several years, meditating and eventually devising a shorter stick ("jo") and a new set of techniques. He got a rematch and this time won against Musashi's two swords but spared him in his turn.
@@knight2battle "i said he died with a stick,not died because of a stick.." And what, exactly, does "died with a stick" mean? You're being dishonest, I think, in pretending that you didn't mean he was killed by a stick-wielding opponent.
A carpenter friend of mine was building a staircase in a rich man's house. Through him, I traded for a one inch diameter, Brazilian Black cherry staff. Not as thick in diameter as the staff you are demonstrating with....but that baby is stout, and beautiful. I go one palm up and one palm down, mostly falling back on Army bayonet techniques. As long as I am not fighting someone armed with a firearm, I will prevail.
I can definitely see how that trick would catch someone, as humans are very reliant on patterns. It's easy to see where they'd become overconfident in their ability to read you, and where you could take advantage of their expectations
Cernel Joson If you're confident in your ability to guard against them, if they are of relatively similar skill to you, it could pay off, but yeah, it's certainly risky in a lot of situations
Part of fighting is learning your opponents patterns, so if you can bait them into thinking they have found a weakness in your guard then you can exploit that. It is a large part of what goes on when skilled opponents compete against one another. No one is perfect, even a master of an art can have tendencies. And tendencies can be exploited. As Lloyd pointed out, they can also be feigned as a part of your strategy.
The whole point of trying to identify patterns is so you can react quicker to them, which is usually an advantage. That's why a technique like this is so nefarious; the opponent beats themselves because they end up reacting too quickly to you switching to a defensive stance.
I call pattern tricks "The Rule of Three". You do something twice, and start it a third time, and a lesser opponent will expect the pattern to continue, but the third time is where you switch it up and get a good hit in.
Similar tricks work in every fight. If you can make your opponent confident about situation, he will just step in your swing. I used that many times in fencing. I was victim of those tricks too. Some of them are easy and can be used again and again (with small variations), some works only once. But if you have trick which works at anyone once, and it is kill move, you do not need much more in real fight, because everyone will see it for first time.
Awesome feint move Llloyd. I remember doing something similar with one handed swords, where I would hold my elbow very close to my hip while fighting, and give the impression that my reach was much shorter than it really was. When the opponent came to the conclusion that I couldn't hit him from that distance, I would fully extend my arm and lunge, adding another foot or two to my attack. It was a devastating attack, and could even work on the same opponent multiple times depending on whether or not they figured out what I was doing with my elbow. Fun times. As a side note, my friend was excellent with the quarterstaff and he was indeed very difficult to hit when he went into the defensive position, and you always had to watch out for those quick reverse strikes from either end. The quarterstaff is a great weapon when used properly. I personally have no talent for it, preferring axe (or sword) and shield, but I found out early not to underestimate it the unassuming staff.
Footnote; With the downward swing disarming discussion, if you can see that coming, the easiest thing to do is to loosen the grip on one hand and allow it to swing freely while changing your posture.
RusticKey Perhaps, but padded gloves aren't going to stop a solid staff strike or sword cut, and good fighters will intentionally target your hands when they can't get close enough to target your body or face.
RusticKey Well, it's mostly a matter of being aware of your grip and being careful parrying. You have to not only pay attention to where the strike is going to land, you have to pay attention to which direction it's going to deflect off your parry.
Here in Norman Oklahoma we have the longest running free annual Medieval Fair in the U.S. Imaginatively called "The Medieval Fair", I mention because a major organizing and performance entity thereof is called the "Arthurian Order of Avalon". At your mention of your "Arthurian Society" I thought, Arthur's name is sooo available and admired. Imagine the number of organizations to which the once and future king has had his name ascribed. Myriads! ...Few to none chartered or arthurized.
This is the 2nd Quarter Staff vid on your channel I have watched & I have thoroughly enjoyed watching them, I trained in Traditional Northern Shaolin Kung Fu for many years, & I was 4 time Oceania silver medalist in Toalo (forms - empty hand, Shaolin Staff & Chinese Broad Sword) with Staff being my favourite weapon, & I'm very interested & impressed with your technique as they are combat solid! Great vids man! Subscription added! cheers 😊
I think the illustrations you show from about 1:38 to 1:46 have the palm down position because that's a strong position for pushing. I think they powered both strikes and deflections/parrying (offense and defense) via rotations of the core and corresponding movement of the the legs. All that was, imo, coupled via that strong pushing position. So, maybe, your staff fighting techniques require the hands to work a lot more than that guy's did, perhaps? Maybe that's why his staff position didn't vary? Maybe he had a shorter staff because he fought closer in or was teaching close range fighting? I also think the vertical smash you mentioned at 2:36 was dealt with in the illustration shown at 1:43. Except that he'd do the downward smash ( as in my reconstruction of the illustration) as a kind of arcing downward smash coming in from the left. Guy on the left of screen: - The guy on the left is leaning forward doing a small rotation. His left hip is leading the action and is sort of turning to his right. Most of his weight is on his left leg. His right leg is pushing him forward. That's why it's on it's edge. His left hand is above shoulder height to bring more torque into the deflection. His right hand is just balancing the staff... I think. But, I definitely think he's using core rotation and leg strength (pushing, lunging movements) to achieve his objective. He might be stepping in to the block. He is actually the one who is defending. Guy on the right of screen: - I think the guy on the right is the one who is attacking. He is stepping forward and rotating to his right whilst pushing his left leg to the left. I think he's trying to attack from an angle via rotation and a step, pivoting on his right leg. I think either movement can be used to attack or defend. I think that's the reason his movement is so different from yours and also the reason his hand position does not vary. You are using your arms a whole lot more. Whereas his tactic is to power every attack and defense with movements of his core and legs and hip. His arms help to turn, angle and position the staff but they are not his source of power. Those are my thoughts, for what they're worth. Great video. Thank you. P.S. Maybe he's teaching close range fighting? Hence the short staff? Maybe he didn't need a long staff for power because those core rotations generated a lot of power hence he didn't need a long staff for power? Even though short staffs might have reach disadvantages?
One question, did the Arthurian Society seriously never change hand position on the Quarterstaff in a palm down grip? Slipping from 30:30:30 grip, to a 50:30:20 grip or even 60:30:10 grip (basically same as a spear holding technique but with both hands still on top) immediately increases your range by 2 to 3 feet and can double the movement speed of the end of the staff. The increase in leverage and striking power is massive, plus a step back on the short gripped side as you change grip, will actually strike at around the same range as a 30:30:30 attack that steps forward on the attacking side. This means you can retreat, draw the other party forward to maintain the current distance, all the while extending the range, bringing the opponent into striking range, and attacking. Want to hit him with the other end? Change hands, step back (or forward) and the other end will swing round again. (so many run on sentences, I must learn to use grammar properly!)
I've done something similar to that trick technique you talked about in knife sparring and it works very well. Getting someone to fall into a pattern and then breaking it does catch them off guard quite easily.
+Lindybeige the up/down grip can also block a strong downward blow (at 3:00) easily. By making a right triangle with the staff as hypotenuse and the downward grip arm vertical. The other arm, (the up grip) will extend out to the side, so that the triangle shape can be seen by a head on facing opponent. Note, using this block will require you to use your knuckles/fingertips more effectively on the up grip so that the slope of the staff, will allow the blow to slide down and away from your body, without hitting the fingers of your up grip hand as it slides. This means your up grip cannot be fully wrapped around the staff, and must grip a about 1/2 to 3/4 of the diameter. (This btw is how Northern Shoalin Kung Fu grips a spear to block a downward head blow)
Usammity I have actually being practicing Northern Shaolin Kung Fu for around 10 years and that was explicitly told and shown to me when I learnt it. The Northern Shaolin part was my source idea, however, the main idea is still sound. I could append a video demonstrating how it works, but that will be when I have time. In the meanwhile, you're welcome to test the idea as well. It requires appropriately thick staff with a strong grip, so start with light hits for testing before moving on to heavier blows.
The weakness I found with alternated hands is this--you cannot alternate as quickly between high and low guards. Stand in a plow-type stance with alternated grips, then switch to ox instantly. You can't, because you have to flip your hand position and that takes a critical moment. So within the system that evolved from longsword, it makes a lot of sense to hold pole-arms with both hands knuckles-up. This allows fast transitions from right, left, ox, plow, near guard, and so on. If you're not using this system, other things may be more critical.
The grounding staff can also go into an upward under-thrust, and you can, if they really try to push in, push very hard into their chest with the non-grounded end of a decent length 6.5 to 7 foot staff while it is grounded. They counter by using distance and spear techniques.
ARTHUR: Old woman! DENNIS: Man! ARTHUR: Man. Sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there? DENNIS: I'm thirty-seven. ARTHUR: I-- what? DENNIS: I'm thirty-seven. I'm not old. ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you 'Man'. DENNIS: Well, you could say 'Dennis'. ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called 'Dennis'. DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you? ARTHUR: I did say 'sorry' about the 'old woman', but from the behind you looked-- DENNIS: What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior! ARTHUR: Well, I am king! DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress-- WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh! How'd you do? ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that? WOMAN: King of the who? ARTHUR: The Britons. WOMAN: Who are the Britons? ARTHUR: Well, we all are. We are all Britons, and I am your king. WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective. DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self- perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes-- WOMAN: Oh, there you go, bringing class into it again. DENNIS: That's what it's all about. If only people would hear of-- ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle? WOMAN: No one live there. ARTHUR: Then who is your lord? WOMAN: We don't have a lord. ARTHUR: What? DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. ARTHUR: Yes. DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- ARTHUR: Yes, I see. DENNIS: -- by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs-- ARTHUR: Be quiet! DENNIS: -- but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major-- ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet! WOMAN: Order, eh? Who does he think he is? Heh. ARTHUR: I am your king! WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you. ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings. WOMAN: Well, how did you become king then? ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,... [angels sing] ...her arms clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. [singing stops] That is why I am your king! DENNIS: Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. ARTHUR: Be quiet! DENNIS: Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you! ARTHUR: Shut up! DENNIS: I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away! ARTHUR: Shut up, will you. Shut up! DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system. ARTHUR: Shut up! DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I'm being repressed! ARTHUR: Bloody peasant! DENNIS: Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?
***** Armaments Chapter 2 verses 9-21: And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high saying: Oh Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
My thoughts with using the quarterstaff in a spear like grip, is, it's safer, and more advantageous when you don't need to hit someone particularly hard. I.E. Reenactment/LARP etc. But if you were trying to say smash a brigand on the head through his helmet, the thirds grip allows you a bit more strength should you need it. I do recall seeing a video on The Modern Rogues channel where they are cautioned that they are using the real weapon (as opposed to a training sword say) He demonstrates this by having them whack at a watermelon in a helmet with a sword, then with the quarterstaff, and the staff broke the melon but the sword did not. So it may be that given the training for quarterstaves in those days were designed for it to be lethal might be why most of them are the thirds grips rather than the spear/poleaxe style grip.
I'm learning Kobudo and changing grips on the bo is pretty much part of all the training so far. You want to move your hands around the bo to give you the appropriate length of bo for all your attacks and defensive moves. The palms down grip we've used against open hand (opponents fighting with their fists) and all the weapon vs bo stuff we've used one palm down and one palm up (spear like manner). And yep, having one palm down and one up helps when someone tries to knock your bo out of your hands.
How Lindy makes videos is exactly how I think. Once I said some vaguely wise thing and someone was like, “wow that’s like a confusious phrase, but from his reject pile.” My mine did the following in the span of 2 seconds: Confusious reject pile > him by a trash can > ancient trash > ancient trash is what most of our archeological artifacts really are > ancient ruins/archeology > the Bronze Age collapse having buildings burned down caused a lot of clay tablets to harden > “the reason we have records from the Bronze Age are because of the collapse causing the tablets to harden.”
This comment is not exactly related to this particular video but i would just like to say that I love how interesting and insightful you are and im glad i subscribed sir!
Very interesting. I trained in Japanese martial arts, one of the most common weapons being the 6' staff. There are quite a lot of similarities between what you show and how we do it.
Lloyd, you would have loved learning North White Crane staff because everything you said about how the staff is held with hands/palms in different facing along with the only time when holding with both palms in the same facing is for an upward strike or block is exactly how we train. We also hold it at 1/3 length, too. Since you "discovered" our secret, you must now join us and have your forearms branded with depictions of a dragon and a tiger by lifting a burning red hot cauldron with your forearms - oh, wait ,that's a tv series. Never mind.
In the wake of his "Musketeers" film(s) Richard Fleischer directed a treatment of Mark Twain's "The Prince and the Pauper" which was released in the US with the absurd title of "Crossed Swords." It's really worth seeing on account of the superb cast (excepting the way-too-old-for-Edward-VI Mark Lester). There are two quarterstaff fight sequences in the film, and both show the use of the underhand-overhand grip. One difference I saw is the "en garde" position. In the film the staff is held with one end high supported by the underhand grip, making the staff trace the hip-shoulder diagonal line. Fleischer knew and employed some excellent fight choreographers, btw.
As far as I know, in Mair's treatise the short and long staff are also intended as training weapons for the spear and the pike, hence the focus on thrusts and the less versatile grip. E.g. all the techniques end with a thrust of the "foremost point".
Perhaps the illustrated form with both hands facing down was a sporting type of stance (flawed by design)? Victory condition being disarming your opponent rather than bashing his head in. The reason I think this is that if you were facing a better armed assailant while wielding a staff then disarming them is your best chance of turning the odds in your favour, I feel as if this might be the basis for a sort/pass time in the same way that people go to martial arts classes. (Please go easy if I've misinterpreted, I don't claim to be a historian)
Very interesting from someone studying traditional kobudo Bo techniques. Some similarity. Not often do you hold the Bo both hands down, usually one and one up and down. But we do use the grips that split the Bo into 3rds.
The reason your hands are both facing down on a quaterstaff is because it mimics the way you would/should throw a punch. when you hold the staff at 1/3rds, you use the similar motion as punch in order to strike out with one end. try jabbing or throwing a haymaker with your fist backwards. As a second idea i would also suggest protection. I've got more fat and meat on the back of my hands than i do on my fingers. if i took a hit on my hands from a stick, i'd prefer it would be there.
Both-down grip, known as Sakate n Bojutsu is also very useful for changing guard from right to left WITHOUT changing grip, as every change of grip is a risk of being knock of your staff by a surprise blow. It is a secure grip but not the most versatile.
The Choy Lay Fut style of kung fu (contemporary to Wing Chun) uses both grips: both palms down and one down, one up. Some forms use a single grip throughout, others alternate. There are also different lengths, but most forms use the standard 6-ft staff, alternating the grips.
I did this once with my 12 year old son who was doing Aikido - the little bollix's first hit was to my knuckles with a big smile - " our teacher said always finish a fight as quickly as possible " .. I suspect the staff is a bit thinner because a good ash staff is flexible and gives that extra bit of speed with a hit. See Irish sport of hurling ;-) . Keep up the Good work ....
I learned a move in LARPing that we called "Slow Poke" where you slowly thrust at the center of mass. With light one-handed LARP weapons versus a strong grip (1 or 2 hand) opponents fell victim to it over and over again. The counter was to take a step back, but few people ever figured that out. In non-LARP settings, I suppose you could use the Slow Poke to push them away and/or off balance once you make contact.
I like your disclaimer in the beginning. To use a different word to make the point, Kata really just means what came before you, or what works. A lot of techniques of many martial styles came about from experimentation and practice, established doctrine should never be the be all end all of combat form.
Robin Hood v Little John is largely about Context. It's generally depicted on a bridge, or log across a river, or stream. So, the contest was one of Balance, and it's usually played out with the Tight-Rope stance. Makes sense. However, because that's the only historical use of quarterstaffs of note, it's assumed from there that this is how they were used, everywhere, all the time. It's the walking stick, arguably the only weapon in human history to compete with the spear, which is a staff upgraded with a pointy end. To this day, you can still see power walkers, and hikers carrying them in case of dog, or bush pervert attack.
My favorite long pole technique involves using both short and long lengths in conjunction with each other. By holding it like a spear but keeping a good amount of the length behind me, and I've always imagined it to be like fighting with the butt of the spear, I can attack and defend from the short distance. By using an aggressive flourish I can typically force my opponent to retreat to a small extent, out of the way of the short end I'm holding by their reckoning, and just when they've moved back a distance I can flip the pole over top, as if I were bringing the spear head down on their head, and they are suddenly in range again. It is much easier to show than it is to explain in text I'm starting to think, and I'm afraid I haven't made much sense, but I have found this technique to be effective.
We all know the only true way to use a quarterstaff (or a buck and a quarter quarter staff) "Ho! Ha ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" - Daffy Duck
I don't know staff material well but someone told me once, who claimed to have studied English sources, said it is called a quarterstaff because in describing it it is defined in 4 sections, similar to the secotions of a sword blade. They also said gripping the staff like a spear is more common in English sources and that when one is gripping in the middle with a quarter on each side that is technically 'half-staffing' just as in when gripping a sword by the blade it is called 'half-swording'. No idea if he was right of full of BS but anyone know?
The situation mentioned at about 2:30 actually happened to me while sparring once, only not only was it knocked from my hands, the staff was broken in half. We were using rattan staffs for safety, but the offending staff was also rattan, and broke right through mine.
That... did NOT look like wrestling! It looked like the guy ontop was about to kiss or lick the other.... illustrators had a bit of fun back in the day huh?
just before that image he said something along the lines of "...and if you get up close you have something to ram up against with..." As I was processing that, seeing the picture made me laugh my ass off
Having the other hand with an under grip is good because having both internally rotated pretty far is a biomechanical disadvantage as far as the shoulder joint is concerned. Having both underhand gives you a very strong position but with extremely limited flexibility, as the staff spins towards the same direction the shoulder is locked in. The one overhand, one underhand is a good compromise between these. It also helps, as with deadlifting, in mentally helping you to not isolate your upper body muscles, but maybe that's negligible. Others could probably think of more deadlift-related benefits.
Personally, I practice using a bow with each hand (both palms facing down) at a third mark, but that hardly lasts long, i move my hands wherever they're needed to strike (or parry) most effectively from the position I'm in. I'll normally start just swinging back and fourth, rotating one hand and striking up diagonally or feinting to a diagonal down. That being said I've had a few instances where I've put both hands to the same third (or even quarter) point and essentially swinging it like a 6 foot baseball bat, running forwards behind the defensive line that strike made and either punching, grappling or swinging the bo/quarterstaff back around to hit the other side. That went on longer than I intended, but i mean to say that more often than not you'll have your hands in a hundred different positions in less than as many seconds in a match. (for elaboration's sake, I practice the bo staff/quarterstaff as a part of isshin ryu karate.)
The "ideal" length I was taught with regards to a bo/quarterstaff is the user's height plus 6 inches/15 cm. Gives a nice balance of manageable length for holding it in thirds and having plenty of length for longer reach strikes while having more than enough mass (minimum of 1 inch/2.54 cm diameter with no taper) to get the job done.
It's a very good thing that you don't make your videos in 3D and that my screen doesn't show them in 3D... Also, thank you for all your great and interesting videos and the lovely way you bring them :)
Yes, I want you to try, staying waaay over there. That would be in the middle of the wall. And I can only imagine, it would look like something similar to the "Thing" & "The Philadelphia Experiment" embed into a solid wall... with stick & splinters
When using spear alone, I prefer to use it "left-handed" - i.e. with my right foot forward. This allows me to offend on the Sword-side of a right-handed attacker, and makes it more difficult to deflect it with their shield. This also feeds into q-staff moves.
The issue isn't the ability to learn the techniques, it's the ability to walk around in general public carrying one. Though one can perform the same techniques with a Jo, due to it considerable shortness than a bo, is accepted as a walking stick, I've installed a silver butt figurhead on one end and a convention cane rubber cap on the other. I live in a major metropolitian area and have since switching from bo to jo. Have not had any issues. Many of the techniques you show here can also be performed with a good wooden walking cane.
One thing about the 'both palms down' hold is your knuckles are kind of exposed... If I fought (fought, not sparred) someone using a quarterstaff like this, I would just aim for the hands which would result in either their fingers being very hurty or them dropping their staff (unless they block)
We use 210 cm quarterstaves in 16th century Japanese martial arts, also with spinning and all, but having no problems with the length. But we also use spears the very same way, and those are 240 - 270 cm, also having no issues with turning them, nor do we endanger our allies next and behind us.
Defending against this sort of downward staff blows is quite nasty thing. We once did that while training unarmed defence against staff user in Ju Jitsu. It takes quite a bit of courage to step in and exploit the opening your opponent is creating while lifting the staff, but it is very satisfying if it works =) Though I must admit I am not quite keen on finding out what happens if it doesn't :P
+1 on the quarter staff used as a spear - even on the longer length cases you can still strike with the tail end if needed, you just can't do the thirds grip and go back & forth. It's all about distance I'd say. the hard part about spear can be keeping at distance.
If you are interested you could look into some forms from Hung Gar Kung Fu. When I practiced Hung Gar, the Quarterstaff was the first weapon one was allowed to learn(after your hands ofc ;) ). The form I learned used both the hands on the thirds of the staff ( ---H---H--- ) and one at the end of the staff and one a third away ( H---H------ ). With the hands always facing the same direction. ( ---H---H--- )
When I first beganwith a quarter staff I started with the spear hold and that technique at the end of the video, I sort of have my own version where I hit them eiter in the knee or the enkle and then back away
I wonder if the quarter staff came from a staff for close quarters..? and the downward grip - may have been just competition rules.. may also have been like Stubbs' horses - easier to paint for the artist..
have you looked into Swetnam staff? its a simpler system but his premise was if you were to master it you could you staff in all its forms (lengths in particular). it mainly fought from the "spear" side of things it was never in a "half staff" position he actually. If it means anything to you he was English so you do not have to translate much per say, and if you like you can read this good source its kind of hard to find his material in its original form. www.umass.edu/renaissance/lord/pdfs/Swetnam_1617.pdf (staff starts around page 134 Hope you enjoy it :D
This video really makes me feel vindicated in choosing Kilik as my main in soul caliber. He does all of the things you mention including the grounding parry and the feint attacks. Granted he also uses the quarterstaff as a sort of pole vault to drop kick opponents but you can only ask for so much realism from the pixel man.
Nice video..studied Kubudo for about 2 years..enough to not be a novice and realize i have tons to learn. Fundementally the grip is different. we have one hand up and one facing down..why? you hold on better. If i overhand slap that staff and both your palms are face down its much hard (impossible) to hold onto under stress... or at least that how i was taught..
Robin Hood and little John running through the forest Jumping fences, dodging arrows trying to get away Contemplating nothing but escape and finally making it Oo-de-lally, oo-de-lally, golly, what a day
Hmm, the Japanese Bo is about six feet long. But on the other hand, it is a traditional weapon for Japanese people, very few of whom would have been 6' tall at the time when they were in use. There is also the Jo, which is about 4 feet long, or shoulder height, about the length of a walking stick. The Jo and the Bo are used fairly differently, with the Jo relying on a lot of switching grips and sliding hands to generate momentum.
After having watching nearly the whole video... I just realized how entertained I am by looking at an instructional video of something I will never have any practical use of or even do my self. I'm still enthusiastically click your videos for reasons I have no idea.
This is my 5th video on sticks today 😂
Even dogs know sticks are cool!!!
Just wait, you'll be using a cane soon enough -if not already. (Five years ago.)
yeah Never
And the moral is, "Always beware the false edge strike" -- even on a quarterstaff with no edges.
No edge is the only true false edge
I agree, Arthurian Society is a superior name.
here here i second the notion
So not the Authorian Society?
Should be named Boudica's Cabinet
SPLITTERS!!
How the "both palms facing down" grip works? Use you legs - use it a lot. One palm up and one palm down, while ideal for range and strikes that cover a lot more ground, limits the stick movement to one side of your body, while the former grip allows more neutral stances that can have the opponent guessing which side of the staff will strike. It's perfect when it's a little too close for polearm range, and you can make quick upward parries and downward strikes. You can pressure the opponent by striking and parrying in quick succession at a closer range in this manner.
Of course, you have to revert to a polearm grip when disengaged and at afar. In the context of boxing, using the polearm grip is akin to someone fighting from the outside, jabbing, crossing, and making occasional hooks; the both palms downward grip is a lot like a boxer fighting up close, who covers up while throwing those brutal hooks and uppercuts to overwhelm the opponent.
This took a while to type, as I had a cat sleeping on one arm.
Something else that lindy didn't mention here (but which *is* demonstrated in the treatise pictures he shows) is that you can still slide your hands around in the two palms down grip, and even switch from two palms down to one-and-one very rapidly. For instance you could still do the battering ram thrust he talked about with two palms down, or you could slide your hands up to strike with the back end if you found that advantageous. And on the flip side of that, you can still hold the polearm at thirds using a polearm grip defensively, or use that shorter bit below your hands to block and thrust with and force someone back into pole range. But yes, generally speaking, I've found the polearm grip better for range and the other grip better for in close. The thing I really like about this device is its sheer versatility. It may not be as good at cracking helmets open as more specialized polearms, but it can do a hell of a lot of things from any given position, and the element of surprise inherent in this type of weapon makes opponents leery of fighting you, because they don't know what you're liable to do. A shove, a thrust, a flurry of attacks from both ends, a massive hammer-strike...the list goes on.
To be honest, I think the only reason the quarterstaff *wasn't* a battlefield weapon is because, by the time armor developed to a point they didn't need shields to protect you from a hail of arrows, it had developed beyond the point that a quarterstaff would do much good against a similarly-armored opponent. But on the other hand, if you put pointy or slashy bits on the end of a staff, well, it can stab or smack things more effectively but still be a staff.
The one palm facing down and one up is not predictable like you say, to strike the other way ur supposed to let go 1 hand and strike with 1 hand, while it may seem that since ur swinging with 1 hand is weaker its actually stronger.
@@Nurk0m0rath I imagine that's part of it. I imagine that another part of it is that it's not particularly hard to go from a quarterstaff to a pointed spear, which is almost just as versatile as a quarterstaff while being far more effective against armored opponents. Obviously, the spear was one of the earliest weapons of war and remained relevant even as firearms started catching on.
When it comes to melee weapons of war, it's really really difficult to top the effectiveness and cost efficiency of the spear.
It is this that i came looking in the comments for. That last sentence was just extra icing on top! Great! Thank you!
Thank you for this. I like everything that you are saying here, (Arthurian society *is* much better!) As an archaeologist I wanted to add context: During the time when this weapon was popular, the majority of soldiers were farmers. For people in a re-enactment society it can be hard to imagine just how strong the grip of a man who grows up working the fields.. with his hands, can be. The "double down" hold does have the "thumb weakness" for those that have never wrestled with livestock. It does not take long to find, with an animal that is larger than you, that there are times to force and times to give. If you give with your weaker hand the dominant hand becomes a fulcrum. It is interesting, (and quite natural) for a weapon's technique to adapt to the user; the danger is presuming that everyone is like us.
Not a quarterstaff, but similar idea: A general rule of outdoor survival is that if you are going to make a walking stick or hunting spear, you should always use a branch that's taller than yourself so you don't accidentally impale yourself on the pole. I'm sure this premise can be brought over to quarterstaves, making the assumption that the staff should be around 1 foot taller than the user a feasible and reasonable solution.
I practice Japanese martial arts, and we use staves of various lengths: the bo (also known as the rokushakubo), which is about 6 shaku (feet) long; the jo, which is about 4 feet in length (The SMR "standard" jo is exactly 4.21 shaku); and the hanbo (half bo), which is 3 feet long. Being considerably taller than the average Japanese of the Edo period, my personal weapons are based on my body dimensions, rather than standard units: my bo is one "head" taller than I am, my jo comes up to my armpits, and my hanbo is half the length of my bo.
A walking stick taller than oneself would be really impractical. From my experience the ideal walking stick length is between waist height and shoulder height.
@@Bipbiprna In Japan, long walking sticks are common, especially among mendicant monks. See for example:
i.pinimg.com/originals/42/18/61/4218615a3f52d4a0e2c354076ac46922.jpg
and:
l7.alamy.com/zooms/69af4ee124994f95809688606e24306a/buddhist-pilgrim-monk-near-the-kiyomizu-dera-temple-in-kyoto-japan-be68x9.jpg
who is perry and why is always fighting people?
+Perry McGlashan his name is Robert Paulson
Percival Parry is the single greatest defensive melee fighter in human history, and has since had his name applied to his signature maneuver. :P
It is a city in France
"who is perry and why is always fighting people?"
He's the grandfather of Will, whom people are always firing at.
He's Perry... Perry the platypus!!!
If you were my history teacher I would have probably chosen history in my subjects
"I seem to have strayed from my point"
The line and its delivery made me laugh FAR harder than I probably should have.
Musashi beaten all his opponents but lost to a man with a stick... he even beaten his strongest rival with a stick,and he died with a stick... the power of the stick man...
I'm pretty sure he died of cancer.
*****
i said he died with a stick,not died because of a stick..
That would be the legend of Musō Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi. He dueled Musashi with a long bo, was defeated, spared by Musashi and went into seclusion for several years, meditating and eventually devising a shorter stick ("jo") and a new set of techniques. He got a rematch and this time won against Musashi's two swords but spared him in his turn.
@@knight2battle "i said he died with a stick,not died because of a stick.."
And what, exactly, does "died with a stick" mean? You're being dishonest, I think, in pretending that you didn't mean he was killed by a stick-wielding opponent.
And I don't think so. But it definitely doesn't mean died to a stick.
A carpenter friend of mine was building a staircase in a rich man's house. Through him, I traded for a one inch diameter, Brazilian Black cherry staff. Not as thick in diameter as the staff you are demonstrating with....but that baby is stout, and beautiful. I go one palm up and one palm down, mostly falling back on Army bayonet techniques. As long as I am not fighting someone armed with a firearm, I will prevail.
I can definitely see how that trick would catch someone, as humans are very reliant on patterns. It's easy to see where they'd become overconfident in their ability to read you, and where you could take advantage of their expectations
Cernel Joson
If you're confident in your ability to guard against them, if they are of relatively similar skill to you, it could pay off, but yeah, it's certainly risky in a lot of situations
Part of fighting is learning your opponents patterns, so if you can bait them into thinking they have found a weakness in your guard then you can exploit that. It is a large part of what goes on when skilled opponents compete against one another. No one is perfect, even a master of an art can have tendencies. And tendencies can be exploited. As Lloyd pointed out, they can also be feigned as a part of your strategy.
The whole point of trying to identify patterns is so you can react quicker to them, which is usually an advantage. That's why a technique like this is so nefarious; the opponent beats themselves because they end up reacting too quickly to you switching to a defensive stance.
I call pattern tricks "The Rule of Three". You do something twice, and start it a third time, and a lesser opponent will expect the pattern to continue, but the third time is where you switch it up and get a good hit in.
Similar tricks work in every fight. If you can make your opponent confident about situation, he will just step in your swing. I used that many times in fencing. I was victim of those tricks too. Some of them are easy and can be used again and again (with small variations), some works only once. But if you have trick which works at anyone once, and it is kill move, you do not need much more in real fight, because everyone will see it for first time.
Awesome feint move Llloyd. I remember doing something similar with one handed swords, where I would hold my elbow very close to my hip while fighting, and give the impression that my reach was much shorter than it really was. When the opponent came to the conclusion that I couldn't hit him from that distance, I would fully extend my arm and lunge, adding another foot or two to my attack. It was a devastating attack, and could even work on the same opponent multiple times depending on whether or not they figured out what I was doing with my elbow. Fun times.
As a side note, my friend was excellent with the quarterstaff and he was indeed very difficult to hit when he went into the defensive position, and you always had to watch out for those quick reverse strikes from either end. The quarterstaff is a great weapon when used properly. I personally have no talent for it, preferring axe (or sword) and shield, but I found out early not to underestimate it the unassuming staff.
9:17 Great technique! I agree that establishing that familiarity is a good move, as long as you can protect yourself effectively.
I love this guy his knowledge and enthusiasm with a pinch of eccentricity is astounding. bravo sir
Footnote; With the downward swing disarming discussion, if you can see that coming, the easiest thing to do is to loosen the grip on one hand and allow it to swing freely while changing your posture.
You should speak more about how exposed are the hands, they are extremely vulnerable in staff fighting.
Pretty sure there must be some kind of padded gloves worn when fighting with a staff.
RusticKey Perhaps, but padded gloves aren't going to stop a solid staff strike or sword cut, and good fighters will intentionally target your hands when they can't get close enough to target your body or face.
Graidon Mabson True.
Maybe I'll just leave my trust to them and believe that they have the skill to dodge those attacks. lol
RusticKey Well, it's mostly a matter of being aware of your grip and being careful parrying. You have to not only pay attention to where the strike is going to land, you have to pay attention to which direction it's going to deflect off your parry.
Not much you can do about that though, except for constant re-positioning and being aware of where your opponent is striking.
Here in Norman Oklahoma we have the longest running free annual Medieval Fair in the U.S. Imaginatively called "The Medieval Fair", I mention because a major organizing and performance entity thereof is called the "Arthurian Order of Avalon". At your mention of your "Arthurian Society" I thought, Arthur's name is sooo available and admired. Imagine the number of organizations to which the once and future king has had his name ascribed. Myriads! ...Few to none chartered or arthurized.
This is the 2nd Quarter Staff vid on your channel I have watched & I have thoroughly enjoyed watching them, I trained in Traditional Northern Shaolin Kung Fu for many years, & I was 4 time Oceania silver medalist in Toalo (forms - empty hand, Shaolin Staff & Chinese Broad Sword) with Staff being my favourite weapon, & I'm very interested & impressed with your technique as they are combat solid! Great vids man! Subscription added! cheers 😊
I think the illustrations you show from about 1:38 to 1:46 have the palm down position because that's a strong position for pushing. I think they powered both strikes and deflections/parrying (offense and defense) via rotations of the core and corresponding movement of the the legs. All that was, imo, coupled via that strong pushing position.
So, maybe, your staff fighting techniques require the hands to work a lot more than that guy's did, perhaps? Maybe that's why his staff position didn't vary? Maybe he had a shorter staff because he fought closer in or was teaching close range fighting?
I also think the vertical smash you mentioned at 2:36 was dealt with in the illustration shown at 1:43. Except that he'd do the downward smash ( as in my reconstruction of the illustration) as a kind of arcing downward smash coming in from the left.
Guy on the left of screen: -
The guy on the left is leaning forward doing a small rotation. His left hip is leading the action and is sort of turning to his right. Most of his weight is on his left leg. His right leg is pushing him forward. That's why it's on it's edge. His left hand is above shoulder height to bring more torque into the deflection. His right hand is just balancing the staff... I think.
But, I definitely think he's using core rotation and leg strength (pushing, lunging movements) to achieve his objective. He might be stepping in to the block.
He is actually the one who is defending.
Guy on the right of screen: -
I think the guy on the right is the one who is attacking. He is stepping forward and rotating to his right whilst pushing his left leg to the left. I think he's trying to attack from an angle via rotation and a step, pivoting on his right leg.
I think either movement can be used to attack or defend.
I think that's the reason his movement is so different from yours and also the reason his hand position does not vary. You are using your arms a whole lot more. Whereas his tactic is to power every attack and defense with movements of his core and legs and hip. His arms help to turn, angle and position the staff but they are not his source of power.
Those are my thoughts, for what they're worth. Great video. Thank you.
P.S.
Maybe he's teaching close range fighting? Hence the short staff? Maybe he didn't need a long staff for power because those core rotations generated a lot of power hence he didn't need a long staff for power? Even though short staffs might have reach disadvantages?
Those plates from the treaties you put on there made me really laugh, it just looks so funny.
One question, did the Arthurian Society seriously never change hand position on the Quarterstaff in a palm down grip?
Slipping from 30:30:30 grip, to a 50:30:20 grip or even 60:30:10 grip (basically same as a spear holding technique but with both hands still on top) immediately increases your range by 2 to 3 feet and can double the movement speed of the end of the staff.
The increase in leverage and striking power is massive, plus a step back on the short gripped side as you change grip, will actually strike at around the same range as a 30:30:30 attack that steps forward on the attacking side.
This means you can retreat, draw the other party forward to maintain the current distance, all the while extending the range, bringing the opponent into striking range, and attacking.
Want to hit him with the other end? Change hands, step back (or forward) and the other end will swing round again.
(so many run on sentences, I must learn to use grammar properly!)
I've done something similar to that trick technique you talked about in knife sparring and it works very well. Getting someone to fall into a pattern and then breaking it does catch them off guard quite easily.
+Lindybeige the up/down grip can also block a strong downward blow (at 3:00) easily. By making a right triangle with the staff as hypotenuse and the downward grip arm vertical. The other arm, (the up grip) will extend out to the side, so that the triangle shape can be seen by a head on facing opponent. Note, using this block will require you to use your knuckles/fingertips more effectively on the up grip so that the slope of the staff, will allow the blow to slide down and away from your body, without hitting the fingers of your up grip hand as it slides. This means your up grip cannot be fully wrapped around the staff, and must grip a about 1/2 to 3/4 of the diameter. (This btw is how Northern Shoalin Kung Fu grips a spear to block a downward head blow)
Needs pics or didn't happen.
Usammity I have actually being practicing Northern Shaolin Kung Fu for around 10 years and that was explicitly told and shown to me when I learnt it. The Northern Shaolin part was my source idea, however, the main idea is still sound. I could append a video demonstrating how it works, but that will be when I have time. In the meanwhile, you're welcome to test the idea as well. It requires appropriately thick staff with a strong grip, so start with light hits for testing before moving on to heavier blows.
The weakness I found with alternated hands is this--you cannot alternate as quickly between high and low guards. Stand in a plow-type stance with alternated grips, then switch to ox instantly. You can't, because you have to flip your hand position and that takes a critical moment. So within the system that evolved from longsword, it makes a lot of sense to hold pole-arms with both hands knuckles-up. This allows fast transitions from right, left, ox, plow, near guard, and so on. If you're not using this system, other things may be more critical.
Since you are our instructor, I guess that makes you a "Quartermaster"
The grounding staff can also go into an upward under-thrust, and you can, if they really try to push in, push very hard into their chest with the non-grounded end of a decent length 6.5 to 7 foot staff while it is grounded. They counter by using distance and spear techniques.
It looks like there’s a bit of attempted “Frenching” going on at 9:15.The guy on top, well up for it, the guy underneath…not so much?
ARTHUR: Old woman!
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Man. Sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty-seven.
ARTHUR: I-- what?
DENNIS: I'm thirty-seven. I'm not old.
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you 'Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say 'Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called 'Dennis'.
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say 'sorry' about the 'old woman', but from the behind you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I am king!
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh! How'd you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. We are all Britons, and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self- perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh, there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about. If only people would hear of--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting--
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: -- by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: -- but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh? Who does he think he is? Heh.
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, how did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,... [angels sing] ...her arms clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. [singing stops] That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up, will you. Shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?
very Python-esque!
Dave R One of the far more entertaining comments you come across these days, I applaud your comedic efforts good sir
***** Eki Eki Eki Patang Zooboing
***** I. Have. To. Push. The. Pram a lot!...
***** Armaments Chapter 2 verses 9-21: And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high saying: Oh Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
My thoughts with using the quarterstaff in a spear like grip, is, it's safer, and more advantageous when you don't need to hit someone particularly hard. I.E. Reenactment/LARP etc. But if you were trying to say smash a brigand on the head through his helmet, the thirds grip allows you a bit more strength should you need it. I do recall seeing a video on The Modern Rogues channel where they are cautioned that they are using the real weapon (as opposed to a training sword say) He demonstrates this by having them whack at a watermelon in a helmet with a sword, then with the quarterstaff, and the staff broke the melon but the sword did not. So it may be that given the training for quarterstaves in those days were designed for it to be lethal might be why most of them are the thirds grips rather than the spear/poleaxe style grip.
I'm learning Kobudo and changing grips on the bo is pretty much part of all the training so far. You want to move your hands around the bo to give you the appropriate length of bo for all your attacks and defensive moves. The palms down grip we've used against open hand (opponents fighting with their fists) and all the weapon vs bo stuff we've used one palm down and one palm up (spear like manner). And yep, having one palm down and one up helps when someone tries to knock your bo out of your hands.
do you have someone who chooses the bo's? I'd do it but I wanna call myself bo selecta
I now have the tendency to listen very closely to your videos for rhyming . . . .
How Lindy makes videos is exactly how I think.
Once I said some vaguely wise thing and someone was like, “wow that’s like a confusious phrase, but from his reject pile.”
My mine did the following in the span of 2 seconds:
Confusious reject pile > him by a trash can > ancient trash > ancient trash is what most of our archeological artifacts really are > ancient ruins/archeology > the Bronze Age collapse having buildings burned down caused a lot of clay tablets to harden >
“the reason we have records from the Bronze Age are because of the collapse causing the tablets to harden.”
This comment is not exactly related to this particular video but i would just like to say that I love how interesting and insightful you are and im glad i subscribed sir!
Very interesting. I trained in Japanese martial arts, one of the most common weapons being the 6' staff. There are quite a lot of similarities between what you show and how we do it.
Form follows function. A room full of monkeys with typewriters will eventually produce the works of Shakespeare.
Lloyd, you would have loved learning North White Crane staff because everything you said about how the staff is held with hands/palms in different facing along with the only time when holding with both palms in the same facing is for an upward strike or block is exactly how we train. We also hold it at 1/3 length, too. Since you "discovered" our secret, you must now join us and have your forearms branded with depictions of a dragon and a tiger by lifting a burning red hot cauldron with your forearms - oh, wait ,that's a tv series. Never mind.
Talk about Lars Anderson archery video that came out recently.
I need to sleep, but I see a subject Lindy has talked about that I never even thought about before but am now interested in
In the wake of his "Musketeers" film(s) Richard Fleischer directed a treatment of Mark Twain's "The Prince and the Pauper" which was released in the US with the absurd title of "Crossed Swords." It's really worth seeing on account of the superb cast
(excepting the way-too-old-for-Edward-VI Mark Lester). There are two quarterstaff fight sequences in the film, and both show the use of the underhand-overhand grip. One difference I saw is the "en garde" position. In the film the staff is held with one end high supported by the underhand grip, making the staff trace the hip-shoulder diagonal line. Fleischer knew and employed some excellent fight choreographers, btw.
As far as I know, in Mair's treatise the short and long staff are also intended as training weapons for the spear and the pike, hence the focus on thrusts and the less versatile grip. E.g. all the techniques end with a thrust of the "foremost point".
Perhaps the illustrated form with both hands facing down was a sporting type of stance (flawed by design)? Victory condition being disarming your opponent rather than bashing his head in. The reason I think this is that if you were facing a better armed assailant while wielding a staff then disarming them is your best chance of turning the odds in your favour, I feel as if this might be the basis for a sort/pass time in the same way that people go to martial arts classes. (Please go easy if I've misinterpreted, I don't claim to be a historian)
Half staffing is also good for grappling. Also you can slide your hand to generate range and more powerful strikes.
Very interesting from someone studying traditional kobudo Bo techniques. Some similarity. Not often do you hold the Bo both hands down, usually one and one up and down. But we do use the grips that split the Bo into 3rds.
The reason your hands are both facing down on a quaterstaff is because it mimics the way you would/should throw a punch. when you hold the staff at 1/3rds, you use the similar motion as punch in order to strike out with one end. try jabbing or throwing a haymaker with your fist backwards. As a second idea i would also suggest protection. I've got more fat and meat on the back of my hands than i do on my fingers. if i took a hit on my hands from a stick, i'd prefer it would be there.
Both-down grip, known as Sakate n Bojutsu is also very useful for changing guard from right to left WITHOUT changing grip, as every change of grip is a risk of being knock of your staff by a surprise blow. It is a secure grip but not the most versatile.
I found the double palm up grasp very useful...for carrying baskets or pails of water.
The stalemate joke was brilliant!
This is probably the manliest channel.on youtube.
"Manly yes, but I like it too"...
Oh my god these techniques videos are even better than the historical ones. Please do more!
The Choy Lay Fut style of kung fu (contemporary to Wing Chun) uses both grips: both palms down and one down, one up. Some forms use a single grip throughout, others alternate. There are also different lengths, but most forms use the standard 6-ft staff, alternating the grips.
English Settlement Society sounds like an awesome new wave band!
I did this once with my 12 year old son who was doing Aikido - the little bollix's first hit was to my knuckles with a big smile - " our teacher said always finish a fight as quickly as possible " .. I suspect the staff is a bit thinner because a good ash staff is flexible and gives that extra bit of speed with a hit. See Irish sport of hurling ;-) . Keep up the Good work ....
+TNPnl I've the seen the sport of hurling outside of bars/pubs, but I suspect that kind of hurling is not what you had in mind. Barf.
@9:00 medieval spiderman and green goblin, that'd be a cracking film.
I learned a move in LARPing that we called "Slow Poke" where you slowly thrust at the center of mass. With light one-handed LARP weapons versus a strong grip (1 or 2 hand) opponents fell victim to it over and over again. The counter was to take a step back, but few people ever figured that out. In non-LARP settings, I suppose you could use the Slow Poke to push them away and/or off balance once you make contact.
Awesome more quarterstaff videos! I've been wondering about these things for awhile.
I like your disclaimer in the beginning. To use a different word to make the point, Kata really just means what came before you, or what works. A lot of techniques of many martial styles came about from experimentation and practice, established doctrine should never be the be all end all of combat form.
Good video Sir. Always interesting to see staff techniques.
Robin Hood v Little John is largely about Context. It's generally depicted on a bridge, or log across a river, or stream. So, the contest was one of Balance, and it's usually played out with the Tight-Rope stance. Makes sense. However, because that's the only historical use of quarterstaffs of note, it's assumed from there that this is how they were used, everywhere, all the time. It's the walking stick, arguably the only weapon in human history to compete with the spear, which is a staff upgraded with a pointy end. To this day, you can still see power walkers, and hikers carrying them in case of dog, or bush pervert attack.
My favorite long pole technique involves using both short and long lengths in conjunction with each other. By holding it like a spear but keeping a good amount of the length behind me, and I've always imagined it to be like fighting with the butt of the spear, I can attack and defend from the short distance. By using an aggressive flourish I can typically force my opponent to retreat to a small extent, out of the way of the short end I'm holding by their reckoning, and just when they've moved back a distance I can flip the pole over top, as if I were bringing the spear head down on their head, and they are suddenly in range again. It is much easier to show than it is to explain in text I'm starting to think, and I'm afraid I haven't made much sense, but I have found this technique to be effective.
We all know the only true way to use a quarterstaff (or a buck and a quarter quarter staff)
"Ho! Ha ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" - Daffy Duck
Hey, my D&D monk uses a quarterstaff! My group just started the second installment of our epic adventure lthis week!
I don't know staff material well but someone told me once, who claimed to have studied English sources, said it is called a quarterstaff because in describing it it is defined in 4 sections, similar to the secotions of a sword blade. They also said gripping the staff like a spear is more common in English sources and that when one is gripping in the middle with a quarter on each side that is technically 'half-staffing' just as in when gripping a sword by the blade it is called 'half-swording'. No idea if he was right of full of BS but anyone know?
Fun and knowledgeable and have good side stories. Love it.
The situation mentioned at about 2:30 actually happened to me while sparring once, only not only was it knocked from my hands, the staff was broken in half. We were using rattan staffs for safety, but the offending staff was also rattan, and broke right through mine.
I am really enjoying these quarterstaff video's.
That... did NOT look like wrestling! It looked like the guy ontop was about to kiss or lick the other.... illustrators had a bit of fun back in the day huh?
+uiuy1uyui haha lol quite the imagination
using the staffs god gave them in a very odd way.
just before that image he said something along the lines of "...and if you get up close you have something to ram up against with..."
As I was processing that, seeing the picture made me laugh my ass off
you've never seen wrestling then lol. it always looks a bit like that.
rule 34 of the internet predates the internet, it seems
'its got a bit more punch than say.. a punch'
Lloyd
I love you
As they say, speak softly and carry a big stick. Little John would approve this message. Ha!
Having the other hand with an under grip is good because having both internally rotated pretty far is a biomechanical disadvantage as far as the shoulder joint is concerned. Having both underhand gives you a very strong position but with extremely limited flexibility, as the staff spins towards the same direction the shoulder is locked in. The one overhand, one underhand is a good compromise between these. It also helps, as with deadlifting, in mentally helping you to not isolate your upper body muscles, but maybe that's negligible. Others could probably think of more deadlift-related benefits.
Personally, I practice using a bow with each hand (both palms facing down) at a third mark, but that hardly lasts long, i move my hands wherever they're needed to strike (or parry) most effectively from the position I'm in. I'll normally start just swinging back and fourth, rotating one hand and striking up diagonally or feinting to a diagonal down. That being said I've had a few instances where I've put both hands to the same third (or even quarter) point and essentially swinging it like a 6 foot baseball bat, running forwards behind the defensive line that strike made and either punching, grappling or swinging the bo/quarterstaff back around to hit the other side.
That went on longer than I intended, but i mean to say that more often than not you'll have your hands in a hundred different positions in less than as many seconds in a match. (for elaboration's sake, I practice the bo staff/quarterstaff as a part of isshin ryu karate.)
This guy would be really fun to talk to in person.
The "ideal" length I was taught with regards to a bo/quarterstaff is the user's height plus 6 inches/15 cm. Gives a nice balance of manageable length for holding it in thirds and having plenty of length for longer reach strikes while having more than enough mass (minimum of 1 inch/2.54 cm diameter with no taper) to get the job done.
Then there is the Dutch way of doing this: thrust a spike into the quarterstaff, and call it a good day
It's a very good thing that you don't make your videos in 3D and that my screen doesn't show them in 3D... Also, thank you for all your great and interesting videos and the lovely way you bring them :)
Yes, I want you to try, staying waaay over there. That would be in the middle of the wall. And I can only imagine, it would look like something similar to the "Thing" & "The Philadelphia Experiment" embed into a solid wall... with stick & splinters
"I seem to have stryed from my point." 😂😂😂
Oh, Lloyd! 😄
When using spear alone, I prefer to use it "left-handed" - i.e. with my right foot forward. This allows me to offend on the Sword-side of a right-handed attacker, and makes it more difficult to deflect it with their shield. This also feeds into q-staff moves.
The issue isn't the ability to learn the techniques, it's the ability to walk around in general public carrying one. Though one can perform the same techniques with a Jo, due to it considerable shortness than a bo, is accepted as a walking stick, I've installed a silver butt figurhead on one end and a convention cane rubber cap on the other. I live in a major metropolitian area and have since switching from bo to jo. Have not had any issues. Many of the techniques you show here can also be performed with a good wooden walking cane.
One thing about the 'both palms down' hold is your knuckles are kind of exposed... If I fought (fought, not sparred) someone using a quarterstaff like this, I would just aim for the hands which would result in either their fingers being very hurty or them dropping their staff (unless they block)
Haha who else thought at 5:30 that he looked like bilbo baggins?
We use 210 cm quarterstaves in 16th century Japanese martial arts, also with spinning and all, but having no problems with the length. But we also use spears the very same way, and those are 240 - 270 cm, also having no issues with turning them, nor do we endanger our allies next and behind us.
I love your trick about fooling your enemy, gave me something to think about
Defending against this sort of downward staff blows is quite nasty thing. We once did that while training unarmed defence against staff user in Ju Jitsu. It takes quite a bit of courage to step in and exploit the opening your opponent is creating while lifting the staff, but it is very satisfying if it works =) Though I must admit I am not quite keen on finding out what happens if it doesn't :P
Your group makes newbies use staffs and daggers?
Fun.. those are my favorite weapons to use.
+1 on the quarter staff used as a spear - even on the longer length cases you can still strike with the tail end if needed, you just can't do the thirds grip and go back & forth.
It's all about distance I'd say. the hard part about spear can be keeping at distance.
If you are interested you could look into some forms from Hung Gar Kung Fu. When I practiced Hung Gar, the Quarterstaff was the first weapon one was allowed to learn(after your hands ofc ;) ). The form I learned used both the hands on the thirds of the staff ( ---H---H--- ) and one at the end of the staff and one a third away ( H---H------ ). With the hands always facing the same direction. ( ---H---H--- )
Man, all this quarterstaffing makes me want to play a monk.
When I first beganwith a quarter staff I started with the spear hold and that technique at the end of the video, I sort of have my own version where I hit them eiter in the knee or the enkle and then back away
I wonder if the quarter staff came from a staff for close quarters..? and the downward grip - may have been just competition rules.. may also have been like Stubbs' horses - easier to paint for the artist..
When you realise the music from the end of the other quarter staff videos leads on to the start of this one if you time it right
have you looked into Swetnam staff? its a simpler system but his premise was if you were to master it you could you staff in all its forms (lengths in particular). it mainly fought from the "spear" side of things it was never in a "half staff" position he actually. If it means anything to you he was English so you do not have to translate much per say, and if you like you can read this good source its kind of hard to find his material in its original form.
www.umass.edu/renaissance/lord/pdfs/Swetnam_1617.pdf (staff starts around page 134
Hope you enjoy it :D
This video really makes me feel vindicated in choosing Kilik as my main in soul caliber. He does all of the things you mention including the grounding parry and the feint attacks. Granted he also uses the quarterstaff as a sort of pole vault to drop kick opponents but you can only ask for so much realism from the pixel man.
Nice video..studied Kubudo for about 2 years..enough to not be a novice and realize i have tons to learn. Fundementally the grip is different. we have one hand up and one facing down..why? you hold on better. If i overhand slap that staff and both your palms are face down its much hard (impossible) to hold onto under stress... or at least that how i was taught..
When you spoke about having a "reasonably long stick" I got a woody.
Looks like a very good less then lethal weapon to chase away thugs with :)
9:03 Here we see Richard Hammond engaging in combat with Charles Dickens.
Paulus Hector Mair also extremely rarely recommends a balanced grip. Usually held by the end.
If often fight with the double-bladed lightsaber i.e. saberstaff. Picked up a few useful tips here.
Robin Hood and little John running through the forest
Jumping fences, dodging arrows trying to get away
Contemplating nothing but escape and finally making it
Oo-de-lally, oo-de-lally, golly, what a day
Hmm, the Japanese Bo is about six feet long. But on the other hand, it is a traditional weapon for Japanese people, very few of whom would have been 6' tall at the time when they were in use.
There is also the Jo, which is about 4 feet long, or shoulder height, about the length of a walking stick. The Jo and the Bo are used fairly differently, with the Jo relying on a lot of switching grips and sliding hands to generate momentum.