The fighting method of most soldiers: one-handed spear and shield
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
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How did soldiers fight with the commonest historical weapon combination: one-handed spear and shield? Nobody knows, but here you see me describe one way they might have done it, with the help of HEMA enthusiasts in Germany.
Many thanks to all the volunteers who helped out with this video, and to the Tremonia Fechtschule organisers for inviting me to the event.
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Lindybeige: a channel of archaeology, ancient and medieval warfare, rants, swing dance, travelogues, evolution, and whatever else occurs to me to make.
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It's not the guy in front of you who usually get you-
Me suddenly realises: that's probably why Pawns take diagonally!
O_O
Reading this made me realize that I am a degenerate
Thank you
Nice!
Holy shit, your right
That's actually very clever! I think you're up to something - I would really like to hear some historical game experts, as to what they have to say. Thumbs up!
Lindybeige prepping us for postpandemic warfare
or got inspired by butterlord
Lindy has started to train and recruit his army for coming wars fought on the soil of Britain that will forge that island a new.
Thane Lindybeige to you, churl!
His tactics aren't any good against firearms though
Lindybeige is teaching us wrong things though. In formation fighting, overhand grip is superior.
Just watch this video: ua-cam.com/video/-ZVs97QKH-8/v-deo.html, skip to 2:09
"Dueling with spears is rubbish!" oh boy do i know from playing banner lord tournaments 1v1 spears
Duelling with 1h spear and shield is how I killed a tooth IRL :(
just put your shield on your back and gain the range and speed advantage over the foe ^^
I see shield and spear as basically a free win both in warband and bannerlord
Also, don't underestimate swinging the spear, as dumb as that may sound
I loathe the tournaments in Khuzait territories for this sole reason.
haha i thought the same...Sturgian arena sucks :D
Warband was even worse. It took so many mods to make it a little better
Can we all appreciate the fact that lindybeige goes to such lengths to ensure that his viewers can hear him clearly that he starts to yell when a loud motorcycle passes?
“I’M REALLY USEFUL!”
The amount of dedication this man has for his videos is tremendous. Much respect.
He reminds of my mate that raises his voice whenever he's talked over 😂
"I just got hurt doing a knife disarming lesson"
There is a lesson to be learned here.
what about a pointed stick?
or... how do you disarm someone coming at you with a banana?
@@Hiraghm Gun disarming? Particularly pistols, rifles, light machine guns, rocket launchers?
@Anirban Chakrabarti You have armour those thing won't hurt you anyways, Japanese steel at that time suck.
Yeah... How to disarm knives?
Yourantsally
No, how to cut off another guys arm with a knife
First cut in 9 years, and he apologizes. What a gentleman!
What an absolute lad.
Just because you're trying to kill someone doesn't excuse you from using proper manners.
@@jamesbrown4092 "End them rightly"
I would have expected him to close the channel
@@jamesbrown4092 Exactly. This is warfare. We're not barbarians after all.
10:01
Lloyd single-handedly wins the Hundred Years War: Orléans, 1429 Colorized
Most people : " I'm learning a new language in lockdown"
Me : learning to wield a one handed spear with a broom in my kitchen
Remember dust bin lids can be used as a shield.
Considering how some people have acted over toilet paper i'd say that skill might come in handy sooner than you'd think! xD
@@alexprach taking me back to school days, bin lids and umbrellas 😂
@OutTor
So you already prepare yourself for the impending post-apocalypse. Very prudent thinking on your side, Good Sir.
Joke's on them, you won't understand their pleas for mercy in their fancy foreign language.
Every Lindibeige video feels like "Eh do I want to watch this? I'll try for 2 minutes."
Then 30 minutes pass and you think "Wait! I want to know more about this obscure historical concept!"
30 minutes? Those are rookie numbers man :)
I imagine during ancient times spear/shield infantry will face off each other stabbing and blocking until the bell rings and everybody retreats for lunch.
That's probably pretty accurate. Just replace bell rings with both sides being exhausted
They mostly used horns that they would blow to communicate different signals.
Surprisingly close to the truth.
I mean, just look at the accounts of battles where fighting took hours before one side got beaten and mauled. Often while it is mentioned the fighting was hard and equal until the decisive moment happened. And yet the winning side gets off lightly after hours of fighting? How can that be if they went at it for hours Braveheart style? Because they weren't going at it Braveheart style!
This reminds me of how in the first world war armies would eat at the same time
Just watch the roman invasion of Britain from the movie Asterix and the Brittons.
"hey, there is a small strip of dirt beween a busy road and a railroad. That would be perfect for our video" Lindybeige, the day after knife disarming lessons.
My man apologizing for one video cut when most youtube videos are made from million cuts... You're humble legend, sir
“He is not fertile anymore” - First known German to crack a joke in history
@@jupprheinland4805 You really don't have any humor.
@@jupprheinland4805 Don't forget French cowardice
@@DoTheRoar-cw6ey Must be a German
Jupp Rheinland Why are French rifles don’t cheap? They were only dropped once. Because they died fighting.
@@jupprheinland4805 but we *do* eat strange food :-D
During this house arrest it would be great to read “In Search of Hannibal”.
"Expected date of completion: december 2017." Whew.
The epitome of passive aggression
Is he under the table?
I saw their time table and my experience in knowing how long it takes these sorts of projects I knew it was off by a couple years. Didn't expect quite this long, but I'm not shocked.
Me too, brother, me too
This is why the Gauls decided that if both armies felt like it they’d just send their best guys out to duel it out with swords and shields, while both sides watched and then just go home afterwards accepting whatever payment they had to make to the other side when both sides where Gaulish
Also, a characteristic of tribal warfare is you can't afford to lose lives. These are farmers, workers - essential members of the community in their day job. If they get killed in battle, it endangers the whole society. So, as you say, the few professional warriors, the champions, duel it out, or the combat is limited to threats and intimidation until one side has had enough and goes home.
@@Ulfcytel That's very characteristic of Zulu warfare pre Shaka Zulu, to give one example.
Ulfcytel very true, though most Gauls still knew how to fight, as can be seen from the fact they were constantly raiding the Etruscans, Romans, and Greeks, and were professional mercenaries in Egypt and the Carthaginian Army.
Also from the Gaulish wars themselves, which were only won by Rome do to Caesar brilliance in battle tactics, only slightly more genius and a bit more ambitious then his opponent Vercingetorix.
"Let's settle this the old way.... your best man against my best..."
"......and if my man wins....?"
"We leave Gaul for good."
" ........ :/ ........ ASTERIIIIIIX!!!"
_crowd goes wild_
@@bcn1gh7h4wk Wouldn't you call Obelix then?
I like how much this demonstrates just how important unity among the group is. A single person taking a step back could cause the formation to shatter as the man next to him get killed, and a hole opens in the line
"It's almost never the guy directly in front that gets him but one of his team mates to the side" (paraphrasing) this is why in chess pawns cant attack in front but only diagonally, they are representing conscripts with shield and spear.
Do you actually have a source on that claim?
@@cheekybum1513 I suppose you also don't know why the Queen is the most powerful piece on the board?
What about capturing en passant?
@@paulcastle2019 That basically is also a diagonal attack. The attacking pawn moves diagonally. If you want to use the analogon with the conscript then it was an opponent rushing forward, getting stabbed in the process.
So is that an assumption or a fact?
It is 3 in the morning and for reasons I can’t really explain, I am completely enthralled by a UA-cam channel that explains how all my favorite movies are wrong about everything. Incredible.
10:45 Actually a tactical win, he prevented and thus won the NEXT generation of their fight, rendering his son's future opponent nonexistent!
Grand strategy win
The “you’re no longer fertile” was easily the prime of this video
Hoho! Agreed! 10:46
When they start dueling at 9:25 it reminded me of bannerlord when you are sometimes given a shield and spear to duel someone in a tournament.
Maui Person that was my thought EXACTLY! I always let out such a heavy sigh, it’s sooooo sloowww
Yeah, Sturgians love their Spear and shield combo
Even with my very high polearm skill and very low one handed skill, I'd rather have a sword if I'm not mounted. Heck, I'd rather have a sword and no shield instead of a spear and shield.
that's true; now if only my infantry ever used their damn spears in formation as well.
in the mount and blade, i would always ditch the shield so i can two hand my javelin. it's much more useful in a duel situation. (throwing it was extremely difficult with all the shields around. i could just be bad though...)
I have a student (I teach college) that does a lot of reenactment, and predominantly uses 1h spear and shield. They have to argue how effective the spear is against everyone else's point of view the sword is the best thing ever.
One day I brought a lot of my boffer gear, and let them do a demo. I had 2h swords, 1h swords, 1h spears, and a variety of others... The student always carries their shield with them in their vehicle, and mopped the floor with the other 20 students or so. Since that day, students respect the spear and shield!
I need to send them this video!
Farfanewgan what class do you teach?
Respect. Putting your students in combat to prove a point is solid teaching.
@@jodinha4225 Nothing that pertains to combat, but I teach welding. We were just having a mess around day.
Lindybeige is teaching us wrong things though. In formation fighting, overhand grip is superior.
Just watch this video: ua-cam.com/video/-ZVs97QKH-8/v-deo.html, skip to 2:09
@@IanSumallo The guy in your video is talking about a phalanx with overlapping shields, while Lindy is talking about a spearwall. I can see both being used depending on culture, age and other factors.
I imagine Lindy's ancestors fought in every war in history, and they were all exactly like him. "Alright lads! Fight vigorously!"
Looking at this, you start to realize why shield walls became such an effective formation and later why a shield wall formation would collapse their center on purpose and if the enemy pursued, the enemy would find themselves flanked.
"Alright you horrible invaders, come at me one at a time!"
Lmao he's getting ww1/ww2 ancestral memory
LINDYMAROON!
Doesn't have the same ring to it.
The shirt beneath his jumper is still of white.
He was undercover in the enemy camp.
@@JagerLange ha ha ha ha
Real Soldiers: use spear and shield
LARPers: that`s illegal
Wait you can’t use spear+shield in a LARP?
@@fangk.7367 i remember lindy complaining about it long ago
I did, and we all Troy fought
@@fangk.7367 Most larps view spears as pikes/halebards and such to be 2h weapons since they are long. Stupid i know, i think some common rule is if it goes over your naval its 2h so i think thats where it comes from.
@@NoZignature I see. Kind of stupid but I guess it's for the sake of balance.
This video showcases the teamwork needed during a fight back then. You had to make opening for others to seize. I wonder how much of a tendancy they had to think like gamers in fighting videogames nowadays ( " my teammates suck, look at how many openings i've made and they did nothing" ) and how much of an impact that had on morale.
Hard stuck bronze noobs 😒
Lads poking each other with long things seems right up my alley.
no homo
“Up my alley” lol
All the way up?
Only at RAM RANCH
Lindybeige is teaching us wrong things though. In formation fighting, overhand grip is superior.
Just watch this video: ua-cam.com/video/-ZVs97QKH-8/v-deo.html, skip to 2:09
"For those of you who love spending money, Macintosh"
That was a pretty good jab. (spear pun)
You make a great point!
2:17 Lindybeige proving one of "Murphy's Laws of Combat" again: "If the enemy is in range, so are you". :-)
Lindybeige's sponsored messages are the only ones I'm not guaranteed to skip, since he somehow manages to present them with enough humour to make them worth watching! That Router bit was pretty good ;)
Oh I assure you Lindy I'm very experienced in one-handing my spear already.
Just be sure to use protection with your other hand too
I misplaced my spear and now have to resort to using my rounded staff
I used it as a pommel.
was that a gauntlet I heard smacking cheek?
Stop it or you'll go blind. Apparently.
A spear video without an ever longer option?
Unacceptable.
Heh.
Spears that were used overhanded like those used by hoplites typically had a weighted spike at the back that was heavier than the spear tip so its center of gravity was actually near the back. This excorise fails to notice many of the finer points of hoplite tactics starting with this misconception. Once you realize that the counter weight gave the over hand just as much reach as under hand, things start to make more since. This means the front line can strike low while the next line strikes high almost guaranteeing an opening. Over hand spears also don't get trapped between your allies when you fight in multiple ranks so the guy behind you can strike on the diangle just as well as the front line. Greeks also put thier most armored men on the front line with Corinthian helm, Greeves, and currass, so even most hits that get past the shield would be deflected by armor, so the front lines would probably choke back on the shaft to find gaps in the armor more easily and make sure first and second ranks hit together... So there is a whole level of complexity there that is hard to account for when you just play for hits. Next time you do this exorcise, break into ranks two or three deep and try over hand on a second row and underhand on the first row. And ignore any hits on the front line that would hit armor zones on a heavy hoplite. Ideally you want much larger teams so you can form at least a 3x4 man block to really start to see how hoplite unit cohesion works out when you have enough allies that they can get in your own way if you do it wrong.
the video was interesting and informative but the ad for the VPN was probably the best bit of video I've seen on UA-cam ever. I can't remember the last time I enjoyed watching an ad. And I am putting my router back in my wood shop and have called my internet service provider for help.
What are those weird loud horseless chariots that keep passing in the background??
some vile sorcery , i'll be bound!
They're weird loud horseless chariots.
Tourist traps.
Carriages without horses or oxen...powered by alchemical means...some dare call them "cars."
Zeus honours us with his presence!!!
Ever since his last thing about spears all I ever use in dnd or RPG’s is the spear and shield whenever possible, and even in game it’s honestly done me better than all the times I used swords
And then Outward (computer RPG) only lets you use spears in two hands
I’m so proud of you as a DM! I have had exactly the same idea, although what I’ve tended towards is actually using multiple weapons during combat, starting with pole arm and then either throwing it or dropping it and drawing swords.
Stop playing video games you are too old
As pointed out here in small more one on one fights spears are frequently inferior. So for D&D groups probably not actually practical unless you are all playing a spear/shield user role (if you did that as a DM I'd give you all some nice combat bonus for the shield wall and reach gains - perhaps trigger opportunity attacks for any attack on a member of your wall and a bonus to AC from the front (ruleset and other considerations)). But as most D&D type groups tend to be roving bards, wizards and monks with the one humanoid who carts armor and heavy weapons around though all the adventures failing all stealth roles just in case. I might just have to suggest a more Jason and the Argonauts style campaign next to encourage more warrior style classes and give the players some more thought out versions of these rules before hand..
p.s. Spears probably can match swords etc in more duel like fights as long as you have the quaterstaff/polearm combination of training and forgo a shield. The reach and leverage of a long quarterstaff like spear as a bludgeoning object is downright dangerous used correctly and the pointy end useful as well - More threat vectors. But against shield and short one handed sword/axe probably still in for very bad day.
Has your DM been letting you play with reach spears?
Your longer video's are very nice to open up on my second screen whilst working from home during quarantine. Thank you!
I had been wondering when this would finally come out.
As a member of Tremonia Fechten, let me say that we (or atleast everyone I've talked to) had a tremendous amount of fun over the course of your visit. Not only in the informative spear-pointy part, but also the late evening talks around the fire. Cheers, mate!
"Und jetzt bin ich tot." lol.
Please do more German videos, Lindy!
Ja ich fühle mich wie ein Lieblingsziel 😂
Ich musste schmunzeln 😂
Oui oui
I was under the impression that a two-handed spear was held with the off-hand in front, to maximise your thrusting capability from the back, with your dominant hand.
It can be held both ways, and using quarterstaff techniques you can swap mid-fight.
@@lindybeige That explains it. Thankyou for your reply!
Edit: I've just now realised the advantage of maneuverability with you dominant hand at the front.
@@lindybeige why are you so against that line of reasoning in regards to using a spear with both over and under-arm techniques?
@@saccorhytus2728 Same, even on hockey sticks the dominant hand in the back feels more natural to me. Would be interesting to see a comparison, wonder how much of a difference it really makes.
@@lindybeige , "highly trained truffle mommoths" , eh?
real professional shamans use trained wooly rhinoceros, by Jove!
Hey Lindy, your field trip videos have always been the best. Please do more!
Any video you make is amazing. i wish more youtubers were like you lindybeige. Knowledgeable, charming and witty.
spear are good tool to teach people about social distancing xD
Guess I'll just need to get myself a social distancing spear.
Why have a spear as opposed to a sword? Because I’m poor.
If you're poor, you buy a shield and a spear.
If you're rich, you buy a shield, a spear, and a sword.
Swords are mainly a sidearm throughout history.
Ian Sumallo If you’re really rich you send the poor people to fight for you
@@bigredwolf6 Men-at-arms and knights would like to disagree
Ian Sumallo ‘mainly’ is not in your dictionary I see
I could only afford a kitchen knife, a stick and some rope.
I just tried out the great courses plus, and I've gotta say, your content is far and away better and more engaging then theirs.
I love that all your critic of everything can be boiled down to ”that isn’t as versatile as this”, it’s such a moot point when looking at how things actually played out.
Thank you for keeping contents out in this quarantine time, I don't mind having a video from 1997.
thank you lindybeige
i love spear sheield
thank you asdf asdf
I just found your vids and really enjoying them. You remind me so much of the archaeology lecturer I had back in my student days (which was long ago now) although you're a fair bit younger! I remember we fondly referred to him as 'Professor Ron' and he was known most memorably by his students for smelling distinctly of rum when lectures took place after lunchtime and struggling to suppress giggles when he had to refer to "fossilised... poo".
Great video, I love how you explain many facets of the fighting. Nice job!
no beige tshirt??? MADNESS
It's just bad lightning, in reality he's wearing the beigest beige of beige beiges.
@BrancaLeone
Don't you worry, that's just Lindy using camouflage to confuse his adversary.
And on that day lindy defeated 20 spearmen using only a sword and a shield
This was amazing!! Absolutely fascinating!
Ahhhh Lindy, i love these types of videos! Thank you
Everything gets a Remake these days, even the classic "Spear usage" (2010). It may have lost some of it's charm, but the visual effects are much better.
PS: I am kidding, of course. Lloyd is as charming as ever ;)
Personally i would gaffer tape the spear to the muzzle break of a Leopard 2A7 and charge for the French king!: "Huzzah!"
don't forget to adjust some spandau rifles onto your leopard 2a7
@@the_rover1 spandau that fires fire arrows?
@@Mitaka.Kotsuka you don't 'fire' arrows, you shoot them! little do you know :D jk
If fighting for the French Monarch, wouldn't you use a Leclerc?
Ah, unless you're _invading_ France to depose the filthy republicans, I suppose.
Drive closer, you need to hit them with your spear?
Greetings from Argentina please keep sharing HEMA videos and techniques
Some bits regarding the end of your video.
1.) I'm glad you admit that you cannot conclude one way or another regarding the gigging/sliding of the spear because you cannot safely test it. This *has* been tested though, by the way, but you can't use solid dowels! You must use (first of all good HEMA gear, expensive sadly) a good rubberized spearhead or some other item/material up front that will bend/dissipate the energy well. Secondly, if your thrust actually contacts the target as intended, it should be a little easier to pull it back as it won't simply fall down, but stick to the target.
2.) You do not know how to properly 'threaten low and high' with overarm. You don't actually need to move the spear low and high, low and high as you do here. You simply alter the angling. You can threaten by a feint that's cut short and doesn't reach the target, as opposed to the wide theatrics done here.
3.) Nobody of sound theory thinks Greeks and various other peoples of times past *FOUGHT* by pushing. Simply put, a push isn't a way of defeating your opponents by itself. It's a lot like suggesting someone fights by moving forward, or by claiming space. It's an aspect, but not the whole of it at all. Your accurate suggestion that swords and daggers are better off at such ranges is, well, accurate. But it is inconsiderate of various factors; the ability for a spearmen to rear back the spear at the half point and continue to threaten your face/neck when you're shield to shield with them, and their own attempts to *prevent* you from slicing their throat! You're right to say that that would be your immediate priority, but you would be remiss to not consider that the man directly in front of you won't consider defending or preventing that all the same. I'm not saying the function is completely negated, but I am saying that it might not be so easy when both men are in mortal risk! The theory is more that 'it happened' as a matter of the rear ranks crowding in to use their long spears.
4.) When you suggest 'what's to stop both ranks from stabbing each other in the head'? Helmets! They might still try, and certainly some concussive effects would be unpleasant, but most men have various forms of helmet and shield and so the mortality rate would be I think to your surprise, a bit lower, or 'slower' if you will, thank we'd think. Spears overhead like that, in deep formations, also get quite cluttered together. You can suspect numerous small injuries, but it can be a little difficult to put a lot of force into a blow if there's some tangling going on.
5.) If you wanted to 'stay behind your shield', you most certainly wouldn't move to your right. Depending on your shield, you can hold it in front of you with little issue. This speaks, if anything, to trying to get behind your comrade's shield to your right, in my perspective. There's virtually no reason to do this in loose formation as you are in this video. It makes no sense whatsoever. You're actually safer with a bit of room to maneuver shield and spear freely, or in a close overlap but behind the shield to your right.
You would go to sound like a salty armchair martial arts general.
@@LordNeckBeard As an actual practicing martial artist, that's not an issue or concern for me. The positions described in this video have been -proven-, (not speculated) to be untenable and not reflective of reality by practitioners, and those practitioners' results perfectly fit the historical, written and archaeological record.
i do not know why im learning this but i like it.
Love this upload, it's fascinating with this kind of history. Thanks Mr Beige
Great video, very useful to visualise how these battles went down. I was starting to miss these kind of videos
Literally one of the only channels to show the Spear some love.
I've actually never been more hyped for one of your videos after the last spear demonstration. Well done.
*Spear Hero:* Spear and Shield working together?!
*Shield Hero:* Must be a glitch in the Matrix
:)
rise of the shield hero is good af, watched vinland saga just after it and now i got nothing else to watch :(
Lindy is really a natural leader for wining a spear formation fight outnumbered without losing a man
Looks like a joy to learn and teach you guys were having some serious fun!!
You use the spear to keep your social distance
Wherein Lindy makes a bunch of points he made a long time ago (if you've been watching him for a long, long time) but this time outside and with helpers to help make the points. And with a few additional points to sweeten the deal.
wonderful stuff love the practical demonstrations
Love ya Lindy, you always make my day
First, great video! I'm working on a book set in late bronze age/early iron age, and this type of experimental archeology is the best thing possible for researching.
Second, to answer your end-credits question about finding what's safe to eat (if you don't already know and were only asking rhetorically/for fun); I'm sure plenty of early people died in the quest for non-poisonous foods, but what *should* be done (and likely was, at least to some extent as humans came across new things to stick in their mouth) when you encounter an unfamiliar food source is start by touching it. If you can rub it on your skin and you don't break out in hives, then you can lick it. If that doesn't cause you to have a severe reaction, take a (small) bite, and hold it in your mouth. Still no bad effects? Then the next step is to actually swallow the small bite. From there, if it hasn't made you incredibly ill it is generally safe to eat, but start with a small portion and if you're still alive in the morning then you can have more. Note that with each step, you should wait a few hours to see if any negative reaction occurs. It's time consuming, but will let you find food that won't kill you!
If it weren't for the invention of spears, man today would not be where it is. One of the first tools made for hunting was the spear.
You finally made a not shitty comment. Thanks.
it allowed the hunters to be away from the range of dangerous animals, and kill in group animals that excceded them in weigth without puting themselves in absolute total danger
@@mackmasters325 Sadly UA-cam is full of shitty comments... most of the time its the same unorginal jokes being repeated hundreds of times - maybe slightly differently phrased
@@Mitaka.Kotsuka An animal, being not as bright as a human (mostly!) will attack the thing that's hurting it, like a spear, not the person behind the spear.
If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out (presumably not by spears) humanity as we know it would not exist either so there would be noone to write or read silly comments on UA-cam!
Thank you sir. Great vid!
Excellent video - more please!
rather good demonstration of melee spear and shield wall defense, an the contrast.
jolly good show!
Lindybeige is wrong about overhand grip though. Overhand grip is superior when using a shield wall.
Watch this vid: Overhand grip is superior to mass formation warfare.
Watch this video: ua-cam.com/video/-ZVs97QKH-8/v-deo.html skip to 1:23, and tell me how can you use underhand grip there
I wonder how much of that comes down to having good armour and faith in your armour. I think that un- or lightly-armoured troops would really suffer in that tight a formation against under-arm grip spears who can take shots at their feet and heads with relative impunity. If, on the other hand, the enemy have helms, greaves and vambraces that they're willing to stake their lives on and are expecting to weather a few hits to the armour as they close the range gap, that might work.I do wonder what the point of all the length of the spear behind the hand is in this case, and why you would bother with it over a sword or axe or similar one-handed weapon.
@@creanero Imagine the Greek hoplites vs the Persian shield bearers. That's likely a good representation of heavy infantry in shield wall formation using overhand grip vs Persian light infantry who are free to use whatever grip they want. Yeah... Didn't end up too well for the persians.
Also, you don't have to be so fixated on the back half of the spear. It seems a waste, but really there's no way you can use all that length in a close formation. Lindybeige keeps talking about all the air he can cover with his underhand grip, but that's actually not ideal. You don't want to wave your polearm all around with other guys closely around you. The most you want to do is do a quick jab over the opponents shield and kill someone (which overhand grip is ideal for).
Also you ask what's the point of a long spear if half of it is going to be behind it? Why not use swords or axes? Just remember that half of a spear is still longer than a an entire sword/axe.
Ian Sumallo Phalanx is quite different to a regular spear wall though. Phalanx is more of a shoving match. Not every spear wall = a phalanx.
@@LouisKing995 Shoving matches? I heard this misconception before. It's not practical nor represented in history. You cannot win just by shoving. If you get close enough to shove with your shield, you're close enough to get stabbed over your shield by an overhand grip.
When they start sparring, Lindy starts to sound like a drill sergeant.
"Be-cause-our-spEars and-our-shiElds keep-us-safe!"
Nice one Lloyd!
This was a great video. Thanks.
The problem is when you are in a tight formation you often need to hold the spear above you, both to prevent hitting your comrades behind you and also so you can strike your opponent over the top of their shield. Plus it allows you to throw it at a moment's notice which is useful.
Plus the stick Lindy is using for a spear here is probably about three feet shorter than many spears were historically. And that may well be because you need the extra reach due to the grip.
"Two handed spears won both times". That does support the dominance of the macedonian phalanx vs the greek. Just as Lindy says it's better as long as missile weapons aren't a to big threat. Really good video, hope to see more of these in the future
Phalanx used more of a pike than a spear, there was much more of a range advantage than here where they were all the same length.
Wouldn't the Macedonian phalanx be ridiculously vulnerable to archers, slingers and javelins?
@@jorenvanderark3567 Supposedly, the middle and back rows of the phalanx held their pikes diagonally and vertically so that the dense forest of pikes would deflect some of the arrows. Also they have small parma shields slung around their neck
@@lucasriley874 Depends.
Greek Phalanx used long Spears called dory. Macedonian phalanx is the one that used pikes called sarissa
@@IanSumallo
I cant imagine that this would be as protective as a huge round shield, but with the advantage against other phalanx that might be worth it.
Fantastic video!
Love you energy bro.
It would be nice to see how combat works while fighting from the second rank! Great video as always
you dont unless you are in a phalnx you just wait till the front line goes back to rest or they die
Greek hoplites used an overarm spear stance but they were not disadvantaged by range as they did not hold the spear in the middle but at the back end, this was possible because the spear was counter weighted by a butt-spike on the other end.
I haven't handled one, but you are saying the spike at the butt was much heavier than the spear head to bring the point of balance closer to the butt than the middle of the shaft?
@@Dave-Shearer Yes, I believe so.
Lindybeige please post more in this time of quarantine, I crave a 2 hour Loyd rant (much like your video on gladiators), so please please please make more videos Love from Las Vegas
Excellent video! Learned something new! That looked like a fun lesson.
ScholaGladitoria did something on this, and explained it very well, and why whenever you see historical pictures of battles(formations), they hold it in an overhand grip. In a more one-on-one situation, you might switch to the underhand grip. Part of the overhand grip's advantage is that the other person doesn't know if you're going to throw it. You pose no threat of throwing it if the enemy sees you holding it in an underhand grip.
I seem to recall a Lindybeige/ScholaGladitoria collaboration video where they did spear vs shield. They put a long version and a short version out.
@@stevebriggs9399 They did. But he means specifically Matt explains why the overhand grip was used and why it was necessary and more effective and dispels a lot of things Lindy says here - though its not directly a response to him.
TLDR - you need to hold it overarm in a formation so you don't hit the men behind you and the overarm grip allows you to strike over your opponents shields - plus it allows you to throw it immediately, which is advantageous since you can throw it and also because it offers the threat of a throw as well - which will change how your opponents behave.
Overhand vs underhand has been discussed many times in texts and among other UA-camrs, who'll I'll try to avoid directly mentioning so it doesn't sound like a plug.
-Overhand most certainly generates more force. Greater kinetic energy generated. You can perform an almost as powerful underhand strike by putting your whole body into it, but then you're just an idiot that exposed your unshielded side on a battlefield.
-Overhand is generally beneficial for the front row of a formation so that they don't hit the ranks behind them, and can more readily target people around them, say 3 targets (ahead, left, and right) for the 1 that the underhand would have immediately in front.
-The range of a spear in overhand can be almost as far as that of underarm while static, and potentially longer when using the repeatedly executed tons of times "sliding thrust" method that is essentially a throw that's stopped before full release. This is also the method that generates the highest force. You won't really lose control of your spear unless you lack decent enough musculature for this, in which case you belong in the levy. Congratulations.
-In a 1v1 duel, varying your grip would be important, so you can't simply say that one grip is entirely superior to the other in every circumstance. However, overhand can knock an underhand spear away just as easily as the reverse, if not more easily, as the overhand grip actually allows greater precision for parries. Try it. The attack goes toward you, and all you have to do is manipulate your wrist to redirect the attack and then return to attack position. The underarm is more clumsy, not being good at defensive maneuvers without throwing the user off balance. The only time I've noticed the underhand match that is when you brace it against your side for greater control, but at that moment it loses its attacking value as well. Underhand can be braced on your side for better control, but then it basically just becomes a static pole that loses its forward attack capability.
-It's much easier to defend from below our head than above it. This makes the upper regions of the body good offensive targets. Legs are as well, but it's easier to rest your shield lower to the ground than to keep it raised over your head. After all, if the spear tires you from being held up, the much heavier shield isn't going to be easier.
-Underarm can be more easily grabbed, controlled, trapped along the opponents shield, trapped on the ground due to its length (overarm can't very well be trapped on the air, now can it?).
Again, you do whatever you have to do in a fight and the grip adjusts accordingly, but dismissing overarm despite all of the evidence of its successful use being readily available just feels insulting.
I guarantee you're just not good at using the grip yourself and have just based your view around that. Now, that sounds like basically saying "git gud scrub", but it is what it is.
More could be said but I'm losing out on sleep time.
FYI no hate, just clearing up some things.
You noted the purpose of levy’s, would it be irrational to think a conscript army would use an underhand grip type due to ease of use?
overhand would wreck your shoulder over time
@@damascus1111 Yes it would be irrational, based on the complete lack of evidence to support your view, and the significant amount of evidence to support the opposite view. I've seen photographs of African tribes with spear and shield, they used it overhand and were not professional soldiers. Also, it's not easier to use at all. The issue is that people hold the overarm spear too far forward, you have to hold it back like a javelin thrower, and strike from that position, not have your hand in front of your shoulder to begin with. Obviously there's not a single proper way to do it, but if you're having trouble holding it then try it this way.
And to those below who say it will ruin your shoulder or is too hard to hold: lift weights, train your forearms, and hold it like a javelin. I could do it all day. I'd bet my life on it. And if you really need a rest let it dangle point to the ground, very easy to hold and carry this way. More than anything, I'd say that your spears are overbuilt-have the shaft less than an inch in diameter at the socket , and taper it back to slightly larger at the rear, or uniform diameter with a counterweight. Let the spear socket be thin walled and the blade short, 6' long shaft, and you've got yourself a handy weapon.
Indeed
@@LT-gs9bj you cant relieve static stress with working out
This video is just gold!!!
A most excellent presentation on spear work. The Roman Legion makes so much more sense now as to why they were so successful against their contemporaries.
Very interesting video, I always wondered why Sword fighters would counter spear fighters in video games
Because otherwise, swords would be useless
Keep a safe, one-handed spear and shield distance between you and others!
I liked this video because I was impressed by the ad. The rest was also interesting, the digression on routers was excellent.
I love Lloyd, I love his content, and I like this video.
Given my limited experience, I personally object to a great deal of what's said in the first ten minutes.
But, I think given the parameters of what they tested, how they tested it, and the good things that this video does show. It balances out.
I mean its fundamentally flawed because his 'spear' is way too short and its ignoring the realities of being in a tight formation and dealing with opponents shields. Despite the fact that they both have shields.
Spear and Shield is quite good, but remember that the Spear should be Light enough.
Attempting to do Halberd and Shield is not only stupid looking, but Halberd is designed to be used with 2 Hands.
Even though there's so many Medieval art where a Halberdier carries a shield, remember the Era, "Medieval" Where Crossbow Bolts is flying everywhere.
those Halberdier might just use the Shield to cover themself from crossbow bolts while standing in line, and when the Melee starts they will ditch the shield and fight with their 2 handed Halberds.
You can also sling a shield over one shoulder with a strap, it's not nearly as good as having one in hand but it still covers one side while freeing up both hands to use a polearm or pike. Or as you say, use it on the approach then sling it behind to cover their back or drop it for charge/melee.
@@lucasriley874 so kind of like macedonian pikemen
Lindybeige has a video on halberd use theorizing that halberds were used less for chopping, and more for thrusting with the opportunity to hook or to do a draw cut after thrusting. If that's the case, then I can imagine a halberd and shield use being viable
"I hope few of my fellow countrymen have been so stupid as to connect a router to their computer".
Hey, CNC routers are great. It's like 3D printing, but louder and it makes a lot of dust.
Glad you the conjectured overarm thrust, release and catch came up towards the end of the video.
In my mind, this definitely would have been a tool of the spearman, but a high risk - high reward tactic employed when opportunity arose. Also worth mentioning that with all melee combat, leaving yourself vulnerable can work as a feint (albeit, requiring coordination amongst comrades). I imagine something like a Rugby Union lineout scenario where, done successfully, a call followed by a confusing defensive and offensive shift among soldiers can overwhelm the focus of the opposing side and lead to casualties.
Legit! man, am I happy to have stumbled on this. Just a couple points I don't quite agree with but I dare not argue them. Great demos too.