HEMA versus Kung Fu
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- Опубліковано 28 жов 2021
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In this video, I test out my Wing Chun butterfly swords against HEMA fighters using longswords and arming swords.
Many thanks to the Durham Medieval Combat Academy.
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Lindybeige: a channel of archaeology, ancient and medieval warfare, rants, swing dance, travelogues, evolution, and whatever else occurs to me to make.
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Lindybeige, so popular he has a troop of cheerleaders following wherever he goes
Like Gary in pokemon
And at least on three continent
This was super cool though. A much better demonstration than I ever imagined. Not perfect or pros, but really well done. Also good intelligent commentary. Ty I'm genuinely impressed.
Lindy, Lindy he's so beige, he is our UA-cam sage! GOOOOOOOOO! LINDY!
Yeah I assumed this was the same day as the other cheerleader video. Though I wouldn't doubt this man is suave enough to have an entourage of cheerleaders.
I'm glad that the Cheerleaders are becoming a routine fixture.
Hahaha
Well merican "f00tball" sure ain't gonna show any
are they cheering in modern English or olde norse?
I think it was all shot the same day, so they only had to show up once
I didn’t know cheerleading was even a thing in England
Are the cheerleaders HEMA historical accurate?
Yeah I was more focused on the cheerleaders than the weirdo swordsmen.
Renaissances Cheering accurate
@@rmckim "Esfinges"? Cant say I've ever heard that term before! Off to google then haha :)
Talhoffer has an interesting treatise on the use of pom-poms in judicial combat
@@givemeyourknees7178 Yeah I've never heard of it either lol
"But i slipped and get bonked on the head. So that didn't go well."
Lloyd is a paragon of storytelling.
Freeze Frame... "It was at this moment I knew I F@#Ked Up!"
Didn't he say in another video that "duel-wielding" wasn't a thing??...🤔
@@EroticOnion23 It wasn't. For the most part. Yes, people used a sword and a parrying dagger, or MAYBE something like two axes (but that would be extremely rare) but this idea that people were running around using two full sized swords at the same time.. It was just not a thing.
It's fascinating how flaily the real-time video is, but when it's slowed down, you can see how the movements lead into each other, and it seems so much smoother!
Yeah HEMA is a weird sport like that. I've got numerous videos of fights where it just looks like wild swinging swords. That stop for seemingly no reason.
But the you slow it down and it's clearly all done in response to one another followed up by a finishing blow.
It's because we've been pumped full of dramatically-choreographed sword fights in movies whereas in real combat you don't take time to admire your own decisions ;)
@@telquel7843 You should though. Looks cooler, and that's what's really important.
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 we all die, but at least it can be on our own terms: looking cool. 😎
And if you slow down the video to half speed he sounds like he is absolutely hammered :D
Admit it Lioyd, the only reason that you, Zack and Harry do these videos is to impress the cheerleaders!
Or is it the other way around? 😉
@@SimonAshworthWood Quite possible!
sorry but they look like kids to me, I doubt that either of them would be interested in "trying to impress" a group of teenage girls
@@gen-x_dude If it is the same group that we have seen before (Lloyd actually 'interviewed' them) they are adults so I am not accusing them of trying to impress teenage girls. Also it was a joke as Simon Wood's comment demonstrates. Had I been serious the tone of my comment would have been very different. Have a good day!
well, they seem into it 12:48
I think we can confidently conclude that unless both combatants are very skillful, a fight between two people with sharp and/or pointy things will very probably leave both of them injured and bleeding.
Why both? If one of them knows how to use the sharp or pointy thing and the other one doesn't I think it's likely the former will not be injured.
@@epajarjestys9981 Not really. There's not much to know. There's no special secret you can learn that will make you any better at jabbing things wiith a metal spike. Training all your life gives you zero immunity to getting pierced by something wielded by a total novice. Hell...training makes so little difference, it's pretty much a waste of time. Spend that time recruiting more guys to hold more weapons instead, and you'll easily beat the guys who spent the time training
Whoever can afford the best armour wins.
@@ashscott6068 You’re right to an extent, that training and drilling can only do so much and amassing power in other ways is effective. But it’s incorrect to call it completely ineffective, training is only ineffective if you don’t practise with others in a competitive way. An old world knight who’s been trained by and extensively sparred with battle hardened men at arms and maybe has some real fight experience himself will undoubtedly wipe the floor with someone who hasn’t barring extreme circumstances.
I think where HEMA confuses people is they see that unlike movie swordfights, you can't block everything, and both people getting cut or stabbed is very likely. They then conclude that training was pointless because both people are equally likely to die. Not so. The missing element is that A: not all wounds are created equal (by closing some lines that are more deadly you open up other lines that are less deadly), and B: humans can take some nasty deep wounds and not die. Just look at the historical accounts of sword fights; they are often very bloody while having a clear victor.
I want lindy to narrate my life
With comments like
"The sun comes out"
"In and choppy chop"
he could start an online business of adding silly british narration to a video, it would make a killing hahah
*Teletubby sun gleefully rises*
Lindy's ominous voice: "the sun's come out.." 🤔
Was just watching the last charge of the Calcutta light horse video, and this man's ability to tell a long, complex, detailed story from what appears to be memory is absolutely amazing!
And his voice is really nice too. Always enjoy listening to him.
If you look carefully you do occasionally see Lloyd looking at notes posted to the sides of the camera (I assume with dates/numbers on) but I have to agree his ability to speak so well on his chosen topic is very impressive. I believe he spends weeks studying and planning his presentations and then films. His 'story-telling' skills are one of the reasons he is one of my favourite UA-camrs.
And cheer leaders are always a good touch.
And with zero editing. He just turns on the camera and starts talking. That's not only impressive, it's daredevil. Of course, it seems he's currently trying out having a cameraman and editor. I'm opposed to this new-fangled, un-British development! It seems the sort of thing rebels and Frenchmen would do, if you ask me.
That's one of the videos that pulled me in. The one about the artillery against the Germans and Italians in north Africa was another. I wish I could remember the the title
That killed me😂 “you can still listen to the German podcast with audible even if you don’t speak German….you just won’t understand them”😂😂😂
Lloyd's add plugs are almost as good as the rest of the video. I have learned not to skip them.
At my HEMA school, we used to use the "hit is a hit" standard, but ran into doubles being used as a delaying tactic in bouts. We adopted a target based system that awarded more points to better targets, but punished an attacker who got hit in return.
Best fight I ever won? Talked the 6 guys who were itching for my blood into walking away. That was a hell of a fright. Fight. Hell of a fight.
A no-casualty victory is the best kind of victory.
Sun Tsu approves of your fight.
As my martial arts teacher always said, the best kind of self defense is avoiding the fight altogether.
@@steemlenn8797 And I think he knows a _little_ more about fighting than _you do_ pal...
-TF2 Soldier
The only way to never lose a fight, is to not fight at all.
Everything you described as to why you're exhausted before this match. I imagine a similar level of fatigue going into period battles. They probably didn't wake up to Starbucks, and a scone, then start fighting fresh as daisies.
Sometimes yes sometimes no. After all, people didn't want to fight while exhausted, and marching collums aren't the best formation to fight in. Many accounts of battles involve a good nights sleep the night before.
Lindy mentions it in several videos, and even gives it as one of the reasons battle before guns was less likely to result in PTSD.
@@erikvale3194 "Mood is a thing for lovemaking, and cattle." ~Gurney Halleck. You fight when you have to fight. You can't just call time out, and take a nap to freshen up.
@@erikvale3194 You don't just get "A good night's sleep," and go to battle. Yes, period accounts talk about making camp, and resting your troops, but that ain't a good night's sleep. They also talked about the conditions in camp, but have you ever put on armor? Just put on a full suit of let's say brigandine with a gambeson, and maille sleeves with boots. Pick up your sword and sheild, then line up to wait for the battle to commence. Then, run through the field until you actually encounter the enemy to swing at. After "A good night's sleep" in camp, knowing that you might be a hero, or killed the next morning. It's easier said than done. Sure, the officers might have said their men got "A good night's sleep" that night, but I seriously doubt they were sleeping with the men, who're too disciplined to complain about the conditions in camp. It's a camp, in a smelly tent, full of soldiers. It's not a night in a hotel room.
@@Psiberzerker Men back then weren’t like they are now. War was a common occurrence. they didn’t treat life like they had an explicit right to their 70-100 years, but as something given to them to be used in the best way they could. Yes I think they slept, out of necessity and practice. We’re they scared? Sure. We’re they unable to sleep? I doubt it. And as to conditions in the camp, soldiers spent huge amounts of time in theses camps, if they weren’t conditioned to get some sleep in the camp, then they probably didn’t make it through the intense marching.
Were there times when some soldiers couldn’t sleep for the stated reasons? Of course. But sleep was as important a tactic as proper horsemanship or swordsmanship, and I think most soldiers were well able to sleep in said conditions.
@@jedidiahburks1303 Okay, sure. Back when men were men, and war was a common occurrence. (As opposed to today when it happens every decade instead of every century.) #NotAllMen. I'm sure they weren't all heros, any more than they were all Knights, or all girls were Princesses. There were also levied militias, and mercenaries. They got tired lugging all that kit around. If they didn't stay up all night scared because they're cowards, then some of them stayed up all night polishing their swords, drinking, and hitting up the camp whores. They had camp whores, and alcohol in the war camps back then. I'm talking about the conditions in actual historical camps, (ua-cam.com/video/rGGdpobz9I4/v-deo.html ) in actual historical armies, not the legends. They had whores, and alcohol, and swords to sharpen for the next battle. So, if you don't want to do the research, then ask yourself. Would you spend the night trying to get a good night's sleep, or would you be partying with the mercenaries?
a lindybeige upload? the evening just got a lot better. btw i just love the long format deep dives into seemingly simple topics like river crossings and medieval transportation. they always provide the best insights into medieval life and deepen my understanding, way more than the 1000 indepths explanations about swords or armor
My God...it's Him!
Completely agree. I liked videos about weapons when i was a teenager but the more mundane aspects of history are so much more interesting to me now.
You dark horse! I never realised you were so proficient at Wing Chun, especially with the butterfly swords. Credit to you! You're just a little too self-deprecating, for being rusty you showed great flow!
It's interesting how Wing Chun seems far more effective as a knife/sword-based style than as an empty-handed style. I almost suspect that empty-hand Wing Chun exists primarily as a training exercise for the armed version of the art rather than being a legitimately effective unarmed self-defence style in itself.
I'm pretty sure that this is likely the case given the similarities in the bare handed movements and the armed movements. Probably a way to build muscle memory without a novice swinging around sharp/pointy things.
For unarmed Wing Chun demonstrations look at Fight Commentary Breakdowns UA-cam channel. ua-cam.com/users/FightCommentaryBreakdowns
No, its not the case ... the weapons was added later ... Long Pole and Knives ...
None of the traditional Chinese disciplines are effective when put to the test in actual combat situations. MMA fighters call them all 'Bullshido' lol.
There's a video explaining about how some Chinese traditional martial arts have weird stances because they were supposed to be used with weapons. Some styles make sense with a spear, others with a sword and shield, and so on.
Surprisingly evenly matched, I was expecting the long sword to be effortlessly superior.
It does feel like the HEMA guy failed to play to his strengths, by keeping distance. Probably in a friendly mood (I mean, that last exchange...), and wanting to pull off cool moves rather than win in a "cheesey" way.
Hey, dual wieding is pretty effective
1) hema guy was bad. 2) These videos are worthelss outside of entertainment. The person is > the weapon/tyle.
@Fishy Vagina It looks like a plausible friendly sparring match to me. While I suspect the evenness of longsword vs. butterfly swords seen here was because Lindybeige fought better than the HEMA practitioner, a fencer should never underestimate their foe(s). A person with a dagger can defeat a person with a sword, as we see in various European manuals like Fiore de'i Liberi's. A dagger isn't favored against a sword, but a master might well triumph with former against a less a less skilled opponent, as Fiore claimed to be able to. (Or by luck.) A pair of butterfly swords has significant advantages over a single dagger as Fiore used. They have superior hand protection, the wide blades offer improved defense, & two is better than one. It's a serious weapon set. Getting past two wide short blades isn't trivial, though ultimately I agree it should be possible for decent longsword fencer experienced with the matchup. Based on what I've seen in recent videos & my own experience back in the day, folks don't practice fighting up close enough. It can be dangerous to grapple, but it's important not to just give up if a sparring opponent rushes you. Good historical warriors always knew how to both use their weapons up close & to grapple.
@Fishy Vagina totally agree. Lindy never was good with facts, so i would not trust him with anything really.
This is one of the best videos I've ever seen. Thank you for sharing your expertise, Lindybeige!
Great vid featuring Lindy! Was super happy when yourtwo youtube worlds collided!
surely we get a wing chun butterfly knife vs style video
"You can still listen to them, you just won't understand them." That caught me well off guard, hilarious.
As someone who has studied multiple martial arts, but started with Wing Chun, this is great to see! You embody the principles of wing chun very well, and your technique is beautiful. Completely relaxed at all times, and almost always hit him with the counter, brilliant!
"Some while ago" wow, hard to believe but that's true. That was "some while ago"...
12:29 "he sort of gives up, and.."
"That's a bold move, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off"
Hello Lloyd I’m from Australia and I’ve been practising mainland Wing Chun for close to 15 years and you did really well for somebody that has basically looked up moves in a book and hasn’t picked up the deathdealing swords in a while. The one pointer I’d give is the cat stance (one leg in front the other behind) has a weight distribution of 25/75 or thereabouts. That way you can avoid getting snipped at the leg you hold forward in the attack by simply raising it.
I haven't heard a _Hong Kong Phooey_ reference (1:36) in at least a decade. I guess Lloyd is playing Penry, then?
Could be!
It hit me right in the childhood...
Used to love that cartoon! 😊
I miss 90s Cartoon Network.
That distance management from hema side though was... a bit rusty, no?
With such difference in reach you'd expect at least 80% of attacks to be faints to provoke advance from the daggers - and then attack at max reach. Especially after so many losses from the same pattern.
Though I guess the guys was just too tired and out of practice, as he said.
To be fair, all opponents here are rusty and not fighting at the top of their form in any regard. Would love to see a followup video when all the participants are more practiced and intent on competing.
The HEMA does make one big mistake the entire time which is stepping forward before he strikes which leaves him open for attack. Thats like one of the first things you learn when you start with HEMA.
@@SadoMessiahLP Additionally they stayed just dead on line. I was begging for them to step off line during a feint and just catch the shorter knives. A simple feint from left to right or vice versa with a retreating step seems like it would do the job.
The point of hitting the opponent with faster hits into his wrists is a point, which goes for both sides. He was holding back as well, because a big swing and hit with his sword might hurt as well as with the butterfly knifes and could make it much more difficult for you to deflect the attack and counter attack.
Nah they're not holding back, particularly the 2nd opponent, he's inexpierenced and is clearly intimidated by the unfamiliar weapons.
Two weapons or not, he has the reach advantage, the nimbler/quicker weapon, and the advantage of being about to cut and thrust with the tip.
They're both well aware that when in measure, and in a bind Lloyd has the advantage. Instead of keeping him at bag by Threatening him with the tip they just wait.
I guess maybe they were holding back because they both were overly-cautious to a fault.
There's a saying I'm gonna paraphrase "in a bout between opponents of similar ability, the fight is most often dictated by who's most aggressive."
@Fishy Vagina wtf you mean, you can clearly see the 1st one being fairly skilled: Even when lindy successfully moved into him trying to make his sword useless he could still manuvere around Lindys Guard position and chop his head while taking a shot to his body.
Point being: Being uncomfortable against enemy weapon/having little no experience against said weaponary. Leaves one off guard. Beside that, even if he guy with the longer range does a succesfull thrust/cut doesn't mean their opponent is immediatly dead. They can still close the gap and deal killing cuts/thrusts to the body. Which would end up with both people dead...
why are they wearing so much padding aren't those swords blunt
@@heem8814 funny comment ngl
@@heem8814 because they're swinging bars of metal at each other. That can hurt you without cutting you open.
I'd love to see a "one life" tournament in Hema or the like. So you get out once, even on a late return stroke, and you are out of the whole tournament not just that match. Odds are it might take a bit to adjust but I'd be very interested to see how people fight when genuinely trying to never get hit (as opposed to taking risks).
It'd also be cool to see pressure sensors used and require a minimum of force for attacks to count.
Pressure sensor on the armour or blade/hilt?
This has basically been my hope for Olympic fencing as well. You get hit, you're out. If it's a double, you're both out.
at this point it would just end up right where modern sport fencing is. Long light weapon with which you could easily and fast deliver a stab. ^^
It's hard to know what attacks count by pressure. A draw cut could have extremely little pressure and be a debilitating wound, while a swipe with the tip of the flat could have enormous pressure and still do superficial damage.
@@TheTutch Yes, you have to stay alive to enjoy the medal. =)
If there was one UA-camr that I could pay some incredible fees and have all the videos they'll ever produce available to me, it'd be yours. I love your videos too much, especially the longer ones. Be it in history, psychology or martial arts. Keep it up bro.
He's one of two people I've ever patreon supported
The other being paul harrell.
That b-roll of Zak with the spadone was inspiring.
The judging is very fair here, and we can tell Loyd's reenactment days gave him substantial stamina over his two opponents!
You're years out of practice, yet the wingchun principals still emerged, without you without thinking about it. Just shows how amazing it is to train at any specific discipline for long enough and when in a pinch, (even friendly fighting) it serves you well. :)
the block/attack into attack/block move was pretty slick, it well demonstrates what the advantage of two swords can be
rolling lower damage dice depending on where you hit along the length of a weapon is an interesting idea. It would make weapons with reach less ridiculously good
Lindybeige is the ONLY youtuber that can hold my attention with a 36 minute video. His videos are a classic youtube gem that most new youtubers today lack.
The great thing about butterfly swords is how much utility you get from such a small package. A similar effect as sword AND shield, but far easier to carry than sword OR shield.
Im not sure its a fair experiment as the hema closed the distance too often. But kudos on trying different weapon duels, I do think HEMA is lacking a bit in crossweapons fighting. Also, the HEMA dudes were pretty gentle too, if it was a real fight the leverage of the long sword could give a bunch of trouble if it was a "real" fight.
I suspect they were being cautious as he only had on Red Dragon gloves and no elbow protection. I couldn't tell if he had a gorget on either.
Serious lack of power or thrusting from the longer weapons. If it were me I'd just feint and aim for hands. Hell, any feint woulda gotten him.
Even though this is unrelated to HEMA, this really explains Wing Chun's short punches. If you think of Wing Chun's short punches accompanied with butterfly swords, the punches' power and range makes sense now.
I just noticed that Lindybiege brought his own cheerleading squad to cheer him on.
Well once one obtains a certain level one acquires the accoutrements of said level.
He doesn't encourage it but they just follow him around
@@RossTheNinja @Daniel Taylor let's be real though it's not like there are sporting events, pep rallys, or cheer competitions. Covid notwithstanding, this is Newcastle, England not Texas. 🤣🤣🤣
"People train karate for years, but when they spar, it suddenly looks like boxing".
Most people don't know this, but the same thing happens to boxers, too.
When they spar, it looks like boxing.
Damn. How didn't I notice that? Impressive.
nah, most of what you learn in boxing is nonsense, see deontay wilder he basically proved that all you need is footwork and punching power.
@@oliver5479 and a solid chin. But this is just half of the issue: the other being the quality of opponents he has faced which have been almost completely flat footed sluggers like him. I think of Wilder as being "King Shit of Turd Mountain." Once he faced a real opponent with skill, and who had a solid enough chin to endure the occasional clean powershot, then he met defeat.
@@oliver5479 All you need is footwork and punching power? You mean two things they train to increase extensively in boxing gyms?
@@dylanmorgan2752 When did I say they didn't?
I would like to extend a formal apology for my procrastination on watching all your new videos!
That got really intense towards the end. Lloyd could start a London knifecrime gang.
lindy my man i swear i have an internal clock for your uploads i get a feeling every time like hey i need to watch some new lindy videos and the next 99% of the time you post a video i love it
1:42 Lloydian sound effects are truly some of the best in the industry. Should consider doing professional Foley work.
I came looking in the comment section after I heard that to see if anyone had commented about it lmao
Butterfly knives were used in the southern part of the Qing dynasty in the 19th century. It goes well with spears and bayonets, and was even used by British troops.
It was also used when not killing, and the Achilles tendon was cut with a back blade. The hook on the back of the sword is effective against spear opponents.
Of course, it is also excellent for fighting on ships and private houses in the south. In other words, it is a weapon for super close combat.
It is the best weapon at that distance and is effective against spears and long sword opponents at long distances.
I think it was theorized that the butterfly knives were more of a side arm. While the other WC weapon the long pole (or spear) is the main. When opponent closes in, switch to the butterfly knives. Makes sense especially considering both weapons were common for the local Cantonese militia forces (and pirates)
@@rayray6490
Yes. That's what I think. However, because it was widely used by Cantonese militias, pirates, the military, and police, I think this sword became the main weapon in environments where polearms could not be used, such as in dense urban areas. (Like a gangster or police officer who only has a pistol)
Hey Lloyd. I noticed Zac was inspired after the first few bouts to use fencing techniques to counteract your close contact attacks; most notably epee and sabre. In hindsight I reckon if he'd used foil from the start you'd have been done mate.
I'd love to see a fencer up against HEMA. I'm well past my competition years but won enough states and two nationals I'd feel comfortable to say I'd beat the brakes off of any HEMA guy I've seen spar on UA-cam to date. There's just no competition between the two. We'd have scored thrice before they get out of their silly guard positions.
@@bashkillszombies Yep, those are my feelings too. They just seem so slow and open.
@@bashkillszombies I think you imagine it going by fencing scoring rules. Would you bet on a fencer if it was a real fight to submission?
@@bashkillszombies A longsword's measure outreaches you. He is likely to open with a heavy diagonal cut that you'll struggle to stop with a foil. As ever with fencing, scoring a hit is one thing, but scoring a hit and remaining unscathed is quite another.
@@bashkillszombies Many people I know in my HEMA club come from various martial arts backgrounds as well as Olympic Fencing. For instance, our head instructor for sabre did Olympic Fencing for 20 years. I think it is strange the way you seem to describe the spheres as separate when in reality there is large crossover in the amount of people that do/ have done both hobbies.
I've just realized what's on the bookshelf behind Lloyd.
Now I want to see a HEMA vs. stick-grenade bout.
I’m glad you made that note at the end about style. To often when I’m sparring in Tae-Kwon Do or Kung-Fu, and this mostly happens with the new students, my foe will put his hands up and turtle up, not fighting like a practitioner of Tae-Kwon Do at all.
Love the slo-mo replay with commentary! Great fun, good job @Lindybeige
I'm glad you mentioned that you kept your style as I was noticing that throughout the video.
I give you much props for that because it would have been very easy to give up and swing wildly or try to use techniques more familiar.
I could see adapting sword & buckler techniques or rapier & dagger techniques and be able to fight fairly confidently if someone is familiar with those.
But to truly test Wing Chun without breaking form is not only a testament to your training but also shows that one can use Wing Chun techniques in a fight and it can work.
Most importantly, a fight with a basically random warrior. Not someone who's drilled in a familiar martial art with a familiar weapon that you're specifically trained to counter in whatever Wing Chun school he trained at.
@@Ithirahad very true
I was very surprised at how good the Butterfly Blades were.
Lloyd's next video is about the secret underground association dedicated to jumping martial artists in the middle of the night and getting their asses kicked in order to keep martial art's PR up.
Lindybeige!
Is it just me, or do these weapons contests seem to share a field with cheerleader squads quite often?
No, the cheerleaders just follow Lindy around.
they were recorded on the same day (i was there)
@@bigbrexitdad879 wish I knew lindy irl
@@pinecrustjuise only met him once, hes a very nice bloke
@@bigbrexitdad879 ye I can't imagine it being fake for the cameras at all, dude seems genuine af
"It's not a sport, it's just transport." Love the ring of this one!
21:35 Lit RPG? Obviously, a lit Rocket Propelled Grenade.
Yay.. gotta love a bit of Lindybeige on a Friday evening
Thank you Mr. Beige for ALL the great content!
Another happy day, another longform Lindybeige video!
I can’t specifically speak for shoto karate, but in the martial arts I have practiced and have real experience with, you don’t do horse stance punching drills expecting to fight like that. It’s understood that its a training drill like scales on a piano. You won’t go into a concert and expect to put on a good show just repeating the pentatonic or whatever. Likewise you wouldn’t go into a match and expect to put up a good fight doing your practice exercises. Don’t think of these drills, or the training forms as “this is exactly what we expect a fight to look like”.
What this example does do is allow you to focus on something other than how much your legs hurt while in your horse stance so you’ll end up training it longer. On top of that it allows you to easily focus on the twist of the torso in the punch without conflating that with the twist of the hips. The hips are the more valuable part sure, but its all important.
Id also like to point out two other things. One, is that usually when people go and spar, its in a boxing environment. That is to say, the same conditions that have shaped modern boxing are also often being applied to general martial art sparring bouts. Stuff like not stomping out the knees, wearing big huge gloves, no grabbing or joint attacks etc. its no surprise to me that the conditions that caused modern boxing to evolve would promote the same here too.
When I was a kid I went into one of those black belt factories just so see what was going on there. Some guy decided he'd be willing to spar with me a bit. He was a brown belt and I was a nothing belt. He took a horse stance and, without even thinking about it I snap-kicked him in the, ahem, groin. It was pulled and all but... Yeah, a horse stance is not for fighting.
@@MyName-tb9oz When you were a kid and you went to a black belt factory lmao. Why not go as an adult after doing some research with an open mind.
@@joshy420, what are you actually asking there? Oh! I see! You're making unwarranted assumptions!
Do you know the difference between a black belt factory and a dedicated martial arts instructor? As a kid I sure didn't.
I've taken Aikido and Tae Kwon Do from dedicated instructors. In fact, my Aikido instructor was Linda Vecchio, the highest ranked woman in the US, at the time.
I wasn't too thrilled with Tae Kwon Do. Too much emphasis on legs and kicks. Sure, I've got legs like tree trunks and watched a guy bend a heavy bag nearly in half with a kick. Kinda limiting, though. Not that I'm knocking it. It just wasn't for me.
(Don't tell me Aikido is 'fake' and 'unusable'. I've seen people defend themselves with it. Small people facing larger opponents than themselves. People facing multiple opponents. On the street. Maybe the movies are stupid but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.)
@@MyName-tb9oz Horse stance does have it's place in a fight, just not face-on and fully open to a kick. Try it side-on, so you can drop your weight and expand your shoulders out for a fist-through-the-sleeve punch and it's pretty powerful and relatively safe to use.
Sorry, but you are mistaken. Horse stances are in fact very deceptive, and useful in combat. Typically they are used to gain closing distance from a counter. For example.. I stand in a cat-stance. You step in with a cross. I parry, at the same time.. stepping deeply into a horse stance with at the same time, issuing a powerful strike with my other hand. Its extremely effective at catching a fast retreating OP. Also, because your entire body drops as you are stepping into the horse... it makes it harder for an OP to try to counter your attack, or to hit you. You will think about parrying the high gate, and suddenly, the attack is will below your defenses... and striking you.
Horse stances are exceptionally valuable in weapons play. Wing Chun itself, has a Long Pole. I believe its like 8 feet long (used to uses them to pull boats around). Many people will notice, that WCs pole form, has deep horse stances... which are not in any of the other forms. Yet when applying these movements.. the longer distances you are able to achieve with them... is the very reason why they are part of that form.
Too many modern people, are filled with too much Ego based Assumptions, and not enough actual depth of knowledge and experience. Assumptions and Theories, do not equate to Truth and Value. In fact, they are largely a danger and a degradation of the Highest Truths.
*Men dying* Cheerleaders: Give me a A! Give me a B! 1234!
You were reading my mind lindybeige. I've been wondering this for about 2 months now.
I wasn't expecting the tiny swards to be so effective.
@Fishy Vagina hmm something seems fishy about this comment 🤔
I would like to see a video like this on European Quarterstaff vs Asian Bo Staff. Ik they're very similar if not technically the same thing. But the difference in technique is very interesting (eg: thrusts with both hands vs thrusts with one hand aiming/one hand thrusting etc).
I guess the butterfly swords could be at a disadvantage to an épée maybe? Because of the primary focus on fast stabs that is
Been watching the fighting and thinking similar. Rapier and dagger would seem to be a stronger counter - in an open field.
Edit: from my fencing background I'm sure I could score points much faster, not sure IRL that lots of holes trumps meaty slashes.
I’m inclined to disagree. The butterfly swords are designed to parry or otherwise manipulate the opponents weapon in order to create an opening for strike. A light weapon that can be easily pushed around in the bind seems like it would play right into the strength of the butterfly swords. While one sword is striking, the other is trying keep your sword off center. Furthermore, if your first thrust during their advance is not fatal or incapacitating, you are left with very little in the way of defense against their attacks. I think longsword or sword and buckler are the right choice if you are limiting the scenario to swords that your average European person would/could carry around in history.
@@kolbywilliams7234 I don't know, from my experience rapiers are very hard to push off center. They're light, yes, but their point of balance being so close to the hand makes them lightning fast at just getting away from binds/pushing and quickly readjust with a very small, almost imperceptible wrist movement. They just keep pointing straight at you.
@Fishy Vagina well I mean given that actual Kung Fu was completely banished during the cultural Revolution it's not exactly easy to find historically accurate teaching on it. I learned to fight dien (Chinese one handed sword) but it was definitely impacted by wushu as the sword itself was bendy and, light as a feather and the movements were very flashy compared to many other martial arts. Similar to HEMA, there has been a resurgence to learn Kung Fu for self defence in the late 20th century. This being said, the Chinese army was primarily equipped with spears and fairly clunky broad sabres (Dao) which also had fairly short blades and a long hilt instead. The butterfly sword seems to be a solid "budget buyer's" choice if you want to save costs in craftsmanship and quality of material to face off weapons like that. (same as axes and spears were way more popular than actual swords in Europe)
@@alessandronavone6731
If you can disengage fast enough, that could work. The problem is that the person using the butterfly sword is going to try to maintain a constant bind with your weapon. If they manage to do that, you won’t be able to just move your wrist to get back to center. You will have to contend with one of their swords, which will always win in the bind. They’re not just going to knock the sword aside and attack. Even if you do manage to disengage, you may just end up back in the bind with the other sword, and you’re back where you started. It could be really difficult to land a thrust that is incapacitating in that scenario, and you’ll likely only have one chance. Thrusts that aren’t hitting vital organs are less likely to stop a determined attacker from landing their attacks. If this were something like rapier vs arming sword, I’d totally agree with your assessment, but butterfly swords are used very differently.
The book pages and sound effects got me.... good on ya.
Its crazy how big this Channel got already remember the days with under 40k people following. Wish you best, Keep it up lad.
I also studied wing chung, great to see someone analysing it and using it. Context is important and as i understand it, the butterfly swords were for walled city suburb use in domestic circumstances. (not Battlefield) They are easy to carry and perhaps hide. Effective as a defence first. Hard to become entangled in tight spaces and because they are duel wield have a suprising defence control and reach capability. As i saw. You can imaging your ability to pin someone against a wall, where retreat is not an option to keep a safe measure, would be very effective. The dragon pole was an effective distance weapon that was part of wing chung. I learnt wing chung before the emmergance of MMA and other cage fighting sports. The holes pointed out in the wing chung systems are there, in a caged fight with a presented known attacker of trained ferosity. Ground fighting is a big gap. Again the point about context is relivent. Domestic bralls, attacks are rarly fair or identified. I suspect it is often onces ability to sence and react to someone laying hand on you that is more important. An endless debate perhaps and not one of easy resolution without nuiance.
Agreed, there is probably no good answer to "which style is best". You always have to ask "what for". Then, I'd look at people who have to use it professionally in that situation. MMA gets tested a lot in the ring by people who do nothing but train, and is probably the best under these circumstances. When fighting to the death, well, you pack a gun - but barring that, look at military special forces - MCMAP, Sistema and Krav Maga are probably good bets, when taught by someone who has actually used them in action. Somewhat lower stakes civilian situations, not that much time to train and not peak fitness (what probably applies to most of us), look at police: Usually some type of Jiu Jitsu or wrestling, pared down to the bare essentials. They like ground fighting a bit too much though, which is great for arresting people, but very dangerous when outnumbered. FWIW, I think Weng Chun has its niche in getting out of trouble quickly. Stay mobile, avoid getting pinned down or cornered, maybe get a quick hit in to show you're not an easy target, and get away. But it's hard to know how good it is at that, since "avoiding fights" is nobody's job as far as I can tell.
@@autolykos9822 yep i think your analysis is good. Most of us are not training to kill and the attutude needed is not health in mainstream society for some and perhaps many. Wing chung also practices eyes throat and groin attacks that are not used in mma etc. I thing it has a surprise element, though any training can break the phycological preconceptions of smaller builds
@@autolykos9822 why you embarassing yourself like that? May be do some research before stating bs "facts" like that?
I have no idea the fuck MCMAP is, but Sistema is a known fraud system, it teaches nothing. It is like anime weebs role playing military, nothing more. Seriously, it is another bullshido.
Krav Maga is not a system, strictly speaking, it does not have any moves in it - it is more of a tactical mind set. Techiniques being taught in it depends on the trainer - if he practiced muay thai, he will teach people at his gym that, if he practiced BJJ and MMA - he will teach his students that. So actual Krav Maga practice consists of whatever trainer likes, plus some variety in form of 1vs multiple opponents, or 1 vs opponent with a weapon, and such.
And WC does not teach any mobility, and especially avoiding grappling, which is what most people instinctively resort to, so it is a shit system for anything, and self-defence - most of all.
@@lightprint348 it does not practice these moves, stop spreading this bs. They don't even sparr, how the fuck you expect them to actually teach moves like that?
Second, throat attacks are not forbidden in MMA, if you did not know. They are just impractical and useless. If you can punch throat, you can punch chin, and if you can do that and end fight immideately, why the fuck would you attack throat? Same with eye attacks - poking is not exactly forbidden (only eye gouging when grappling on the ground, but guess what, WC does not even teach to grapple), it is just near impossible to do.
There is nothing better for unarmed self-defence than MMA, nothing.
@@SwordWieldingDuck i am not sure this is a conversation. Not all folk can train mma, the old, the disabled the small, the time poor. Mmas priotity is the ring. Peoples context is rarely the ring. I hope your martial journey enrichs you.
If it's any consolation, I had a bunch of stuff walk off when I moved last year. Nothing hugely significant. But some of it is stuff that would be nice to have, and some of it is difficult to replace.
They were created for different purposes, longsword is a battlefield weapon while butterfly swords were meant to be a concealable self defence weapon. Used mostly in urban environment, often in smaller or enclosed spaces.
Longsword is not a battlefield weapon. Its a dueling weapon. Typical battlefield weapons are polearms, bows, shields etc.
Longswords might have been used on the battlefield as a sidearm for when your polearm breaks but they used many different for this purpose.
These experiences are very similar to my own with butterfly swords. They're surprisingly effective, especially in defence.
Yippee, another Lindybeige video! If you see this, I hope from the bottom of my heart you find all the stuff, Lloyd
I had been wondering what happened to those pictures.
Love the detailed explanations of moves and hits!
This is the first time i see a duel footage with commentary, loved how it was narrated, it would be so great to have those slow-mo cameras though!
Lloyd, I think what you've proven here or maybe come close is that somebody really competent with these things could have actually been a threat in Europe a few hundred years ago. On the battlefield not so much because you've got no defense against archery but in a personal compact or dueling situation, absolutely.
A lot of that would likely be an opponent facing a totally-unfamiliar fighting style. Also, one thing that I don't think they really were able to test here was what would happen if someone with a big zweihander just launched a hell-bent-for-leather overpowering chop. Could two machete-weight blades _really_ hold that off? Perhaps! But obviously they weren't going to launch an attack like that at Lloyd because if something went wrong, they could concuss him even through his helmet.
Even so, it's pretty clear that whipping these things out if you're beset by one guy with a weapon whose heart isn't totally in it is probably a good idea. Good weapon for dueling - even better for, shall we say, the sort of _"informal_ dueling" that happens immediately after an exchange of cross words, or a demand for your GP or your HP.
@@ShadowDragon8685 yeah, it's got potential for street brawls, pub brawls or dueling. Battlefield, no, it can't control ground and it's rubbish if arrows are flying.
It was used as a personal combat weapon for soldiers stationed to protect areas where close quarter combat was inevitable. As we can see, the knives are absolutely effective in a 1 on 1 situation. Imagine defending a temple hallway or atop a narrow wall.
In the same light, in a European battlefield situation fencing techniques were also very rarely implented, as victory had far more to do with leadership, positioning, morale, unit adhesion and drills.
A practitioner versed in WC in a Chinese army would just as much just be issued a weapon, likely a spear or a bow, and just told to follow orders to the best of their ability.
If you're in the lethal equivalent of a mosh pit once a battle turns into a melee, one might have some luck with muscle memory but the main thing is to not break formation and just strike at whoever is in front of you.
@@ZephirumUpload Funny story about that. My kid brother got in that kind of a fight about 25 years ago in Oakland California. Rap music wasn't normally his thing but a friend of his got some free tickets to a concert at the Oakland Coliseum and about halfway through, a local street gang went violently bonkers. There were metal detectors and such at every door so this was an unarmed fight but they were throwing people down staircases, all kinds of crazy stuff. My brother was part of a group along with security guards and whoever else would join in holding them back at choke points allowing regular folk to get out behind them and then doing a fighting retreat to the next choke point. As long as they held formation they were fine. It was basically a whole series of "Spartans at the hot gates" type of holding action against at least 10 times their number.
So yeah, you're absolutely correct.
Biff biff!!!! Hahaa. Have at you !!! This was really cool. And your wing Chung style was impressive. 1st gate, 2nd gate, 3rd gate. Thank you Lindybiege.
Great show as always
Ahh, I always forget how long a Lindy video is. I thought it was winding down and went to check the comments as is my wont, and I find he’s only half done. Fantastic.
It would be awesome seeing another sparring video, this was fun. Especially one with an axe and shield against some different weapon
@Fishy Vagina thats a stupid comment
@Fishy Vagina You are right, reach is everything, hence why closecmbat weapons were merely ceremonial and everyone was using only bows and slings instead throughout history.
@Fishy Vagina It's quite difficult to reliably incapacitate quickly with a thrust. While the wounded person might retreat or give up, a highly motived attacker probably wouldn't. Expecting a thrust to stop a rush would be a dangerous gamble. A skill fencer should be able to land one or more thrusts while still maintaining distancing, however, or at least being in advantageous position for grappling if it comes to that.
@Fishy Vagina We have tons of historical & recent accounts of people who don't stop when stabbed, including in the heart. Sometimes people stabbed in the heart continue fighting & still wound or even kill the person who stabbed them. Wounding dynamics are highly variable. A good fencer has to account for this possibility.
Those twin swords proved more useful than I presumed in a duel. I would modify them with much better hand guards though (late-European sabre-rapier style). Better hands guards become so much more important with such short swords.
Yeah, the knives are great but the guards are painfully not-great. Maybe there are other styles or positions that justify this design but it looks like a liability overall.
The swords are flat, which makes them easy to carry. Swords that have better hand guards but which you are not carrying when attacked are less useful.
They’re probably more of a brawling/assassination weapon. Easily concealed until you need it.
The world is a much better place with a new Lindybeige video in it!
Thanks for the shout out Lloyd, much appreciated! :)
Very informative and interesting sparring vid, what ever happened to your armour project? have I missed something?
Quite surprised at the results considering the butterfly swords were taken out of their original battle context.
@Fishy Vagina If this was a single short weapon against a long weapon you'd be correct, but against two knives if you keep your sword point too far forward one knife will control the sword (push offline) the other will close and attack. It's the same with spear (or bayonet) vs sword, longer weapon more likely to win, but if it's sword and shield/buckler/dagger it evens the odds. I'm not claiming any great expertise, but I've trained for both sides of this fight with many people and in my experience what I've said is the norm.
@Fishy Vagina Cheers for the input, I suspect that you have very little experience pressure testing this kind of martial art.
@Fishy Vagina are you ok?
@@pavolverescak1712 their profile name is literally fishy vagina, i don't think thats a question that needs answering
@Fishy Vagina I've never done Eastern Martial Arts, I practice HEMA. Lindy isn't using a pocket knife, he's using BIG choppy knives that have a knuckle bow. In single weapon sparring, the longer weapon would generally have the advantage, but when the shorter weapon user has an off-hand the advantage levels out to some degree. I've been on both ends of this many times. I think Lindy even made a video a while back with spear v sword compared to spear v sword and shield. I didn't realise that this was so contentious. I'm not saying x beats y always, just that 2 big choppy knives against 1 sword stand a better chance than you'd have us believe.
Also, when you wrote that the sword has more leverage than a knife, I guessed that you hadn't a clue.
Wow I would love to see more sparring bouts that are narrated by someone in the fight! It gives a really good perspective while watching it.
man you are relentless !!
Nice job to both of you !!
👍
I'm don't know how long you have trained wing chun, so with that in mind I think you did reasonably well in the 'style' department.
If I was being critical, an area that I think you could improve was your footwork. circle stepping and arrow walking without over commiting was not very evident. The rear foot should propel your movement so lunging and shifting your weight over the front knee should not occur.
This seemed to lead to a 'no man's land' in range. If your footwork was better you would be able to be inside and outside of range more efficiently.
There were also various other hand positions and techniques that you did not employ, however I do not know whether you didn't get the chance or are not proficient in them.
Otherwise good effort and I enjoyed your take on the butterfly knives.
The impression I got watching this video; I would be prone to saying perhaps he trained almost exclusively knives, and little to no empty hand. There's alot of the principles he lacking on. His blade work is good, but his balance and weight distribution is lacking. His footwork also seems kinda shoddy. I would attribute those to being rusty (as he implied in the beginning) if that he did do empty hand.
I'm not in any way proficient with wing chun, but what I noticed is that he sometimes swapped in another guard only to swap back into the default one after half a second or so. What I can imagine is that he trained more hand positions and techniques that he demonstrated, but did fall back to the ones he is most familiar with for two reasons. First if you haven't practiced in a while you want to get your feeling back with the things you are most familiar with and second if you spar or fight and you want to perform reasonably well, you won't go for the most experimental things you have, if not necessary.
"Larpers alsmost never use Big shields or spears." Oh boy i wish... most times it ist forbidden to hit the head or kick/tackle the shields away so people are hiding behind their door sized shields...
My grandmother used to say, "Three moves is the same as a fire."
19:54 🗡 Whispering of the Sword ⚔️
BTW, very good pronunciation, Lindy!
inter weapon style sparing is interesting but its hard to understand how to use different weapons sometimes. where are you guys located
Lindybeige seems to have his own cheerleaders
It makes me happy that somewhere out there is a very learned man doing his own sound effects while swinging his weapons. Woosh, phooom, slice slice slice!
Very much enjoy watching your HEMA videos, strongly considering starting up a club locally.
I will say, as someone who practiced Shotokan for years and felt very frustrated at all the katas and repetitive drills as a teenager, you would be VERY surprised at how much of it carries over on a subconscious level to competitive bouts. Sure, you're not going to drop into a totally stationary horse stance and throw rhythmic punches at your opponent, shouting on every fifth blow. HOWEVER, after having done so for hours with an instructor bullying you every time you slacked off or messed up your form, you can bet that you'll punch from the hips properly. You'll put as much weight as possible into your blows without overextending (the back and horse stances in particular are excellent ways to get a true feel for balance and an unconscious knowledge of your centre of gravity). One thing I noticed after enough drills and hitting stationary bags and all the rest was that in actual bouts, I was much, much better able to properly regulate my breathing and synchronize it with attacks. The Mr. Miyagi "wax on, wax off" routine is sort of an exaggerated Hollywood take on something that I've found to be true of learning Karate: you pick up genuinely applicable instincts and skills through seemingly worthless repetition.
Well said.
Yep, muscle memory
I have noticed a lot of people drop their style when sparring. It's like, what were you training for all those years?
Dropping styles is a big starter problem.
I have to defend my hobby:
So, some people drop their styles, but the karate one is not dropping all styles, it is changing to a faster moving, harder to read -style. With some more training you can adapt all the tecniques for a second style. The amount of training is shockingly low compared to learning a new kick or a punch.
Against another martial artist it is more important to be hard to read and a bit faster, that to punch a bit harder, what you can do from the hand on belt -style.
Dude the hema lad looked Soo tired.
@@weleho I've known intermediate (2-10 year) practitioners drop it every time. The only exception being the traditional Okinawan styles and Muay Thai. (not counter points to what you were saying, just additional points of data)
@@genestealerjon3033 that's what llindy said in the very beginning, they've practiced HEMA for hours before doing this video. Did you watch from the start or just skipp to the sparring part?
@@anblueboot5364 No I know Lindy said that, I was trying to connect the dropped form (and to be honest it wasn't THAT bad) and his tiredness.
Loved your documentary Lindybeige, as with all your others. Also making a mental note never to be on your bad side. To support your passing comment, I have seen other martial artists comment how many Chinese martial arts experts will quickly revert to boxing stance whenever they are in a "real" MMA fight. It is a credit to you that you retained your style.
I like that the both of you know what you are doing without being master of all classes.
I can already tell this video is going to be a classic.
I rather like the jumper you’re wearing this episode
Excellent commentary for an excellent sparing match!
@Fishy Vagina Of course it was staged, they were playing a sport, not fightingin a life or death scenario.
This was awesome i loved the breakdowns