The comics had the perfect layout for how the TV universe should've ended. Civilization in America was rebuilt after the Commonwealth war and Carl had a family of his own, but no we can't have that because AMC wants to milk it to death instead of having that happy ending and focusing on something else.
I have a feeling that, the main reason the walking dead stopped working well, is because they were afraid to expand the universe from a narrative point of view. I havent seen twd in years, but theres a lot that could be done with it, that isn't because the status quo is what matters in it.
I literally just finished rewatching BB & BCS. I’ve seen them both over half a dozen times and absolutely love them. It’s so fun to rewatch in chronological order: BCS s1-s6e09, BB in its entirety, El Camino and finally BCS s6e10-13. Definitely the best way to rewatch. I miss the franchise so much but am so glad they haven’t milked it like TWD. The state of that franchise is just embarrassing. Theres just no passion there anymore, especially in the writers room. That couldn’t be further from the truth with BCS, which easily has the best writing I’ve ever seen, especially with regard to character work.
I might try watching in that order since Ive already seen Breaking Bad all the way through twice and Better Call Saul two and a half times. And I think Ive seen El Camino once or twice.
The fact Vince Gilligan wrote BB, considered to be one of the greatest shows ever and then followed it up with BCS is incredible. Most showrunners dream for one TV show at this level and he did two in the same decade. TWD is just kicking a dead horse. I wish they would have wrote the CRM as the final villian of the series. Connect CRM to France with the variants, experiments, and walkers coming over on ships. They could have even connected to Dead City with the Dhama and explain how she has so much power. But instead we get side quests that take place in their own little bubble. Such a shame. Great video!!
I don't think the sense of dread can be achieved in The Walking Dead anymore. After a decade or so in the universe, the zombies have become normalized - they’re no longer an immediate threat. People have figured out how to deal with them. In my opinion, this is why the Walking Dead universe always had a limited shelf life. The best spinoff idea would be to have a show with six episodes each season from different parts of the world from when the apocalypse started. Or something to that effect. Or just... leave it alone lol.
Better Call Saul was supposed to be one of two spinoffs. Gus was supposed to get a separate spinoff called the rise of Gus. AMC tried milking the Breaking bad universe but Vince Gilligan actually had a spine and chose quality over quantity and combined the two proposed spinoffs into one. Breaking bad was also not supposed to stop at Season 5. AMC aired season 5 over 2 years despite not being a long season to be able to milk the show for an extra year instead of doing a regular 6-8 week mid season break. Vince also left money on the table because God knows it'd watch more breaking bad content and I think they could still get another 2-3 seasons in the universe if they wanted to. But Vince doesn't want to risk wreaking his franchise that he's passionate about. Like Vince Gillian said "after the party is over you don't want to be the guy with the lampshade on your head". Scott Gimple is the hungover guy with a lampshade on his head after a college frat party. I think Scott Gimple is the best writer and show runner the walking dead universe has and I used to defend him even after season 8, but as the chief content officer he was corrupted by his power and he's running his franchise into the ground all for money. He's bending the knee for AMC and kissing the ring for a paycheck. Such a waste of his potential and I have stopped defending him to his haters. He's the worst chief content officer the franchise could have chosen.
Better Call Saul was just a slow poison where no one was "GOOD"...my respect for everyone who was involved in making BCS increases day by day... And yeah for me BCS>BB.
Walking Dead spin offs are a complete tease when you look at them in hindsight. Like the potential is there but they choke in the 2nd half all the time. First 3 Seasons of Fear were great then it fell off and became dog water. The Ones who lives started out with a bang the first episode like a movie basically then choked in the 4th and became dog water. Daryl Dixon Season 1 was amazing I was shocked how good it was then they choked again in Season 2 with some more dog water. Walking Dead writers are basically choke artists that suck in 4th quarters when the pressure is on lmao
It was easy to give FTWD a chance because I had been up to date with TWD comics so I had very little surprise to the show, with the exception to them giving comic character arcs to characters made originally for the show after they killed off the characters that originally had those arcs, I.e., Andrea, Dale, Billy, Ben, Sophia, etc. When FTWD had those first three seasons, it felt more grounded as opposed to the more comic book feel that the main show had to match its source material. Secondly, FTWD went straight in to inner group conflict that was, more or less, resolved by the main shows group as they had better cohesion; the FTWD characters all struggled to stay together and keep healthy relationships among the madness and no matter how hard they tried to stay together, they only made things worse. I’m sure it’s been hammered to death that the original vision for FTWD was to see the characters turn into villains before it was rebooted and became the Morgan show. FTWD had potential to go on as it’s own and end on its own terms but corporate greed got too much in the way.
As somebody who is developing their own "cinematic/extended universe... thing" you pretty much nailed all the points on the head. The Walking Dead is what happens when no one agrees on anything and no planning whatsoever is involved. You can feel it in everything. There's no real reason or cohesion to the character motives, the grander moving story or set pieces. It's just things to do because "we had to make a show." Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul (even Marvel to an extent before Phase 4, Star Wars before Disney, etc) are an example of stories that needed to be told to make one grand story. And I say "stories" plural because they should be actual stories, not just characters doing things to get to point B in spin-off #21 or to sell more merch or prop up streaming services. All the characters in your spin-offs should have unique challenges and an agency to finish their own arc, not just service a franchise point, it's the icing on the cake that they do. I find it easier when I look at all of them as their own separate stories that have a beginning, middle and end. If the character or setting cannot withstand deep themes or a character arc worth telling than it should not be done. Walking Dead's big mistake was being 11 seasons and then doing even more while still repeating themes and character arcs into redundancy. It was a leviathan task to turn that into a universe with shows and movies that people would stick with. They tried, and had some great ideas but they fumbled EVERY chance they had. It was stunning. The CRM was just a sad mess, the whole PPP card thing. Morgan's crossover, World Beyond's ambiguous ending going nowhere in Daryl, etc. Why even bother if that's how you wrap it up. There's no goal or action taken to make the world feel full and together. It's just stuff. My main 5 rules are: 1) A character with burning questions needs to be answered, with a story that fuels you as a writer to tell it 2) A significant world-building experience needs to be had, including how it affects the other series/movies 3) Needs to feel apart of the great "fabric" of the universe and essential to setting of the universe (why here?) 4) Needs to address it's own themes, pathos, and worldview 5) Needs it's own visual identity (cinematography/animation/VFX/sound/filter) That's just how I see it. Walking Dead's handling of it was awful though. I've never seen a bag fumble that hard. What they were trying to do really was not that hard and I have to imagine there were serious external factors or AMC fucking it up over and over again because it makes no sense otherwise.
I miss what TWD used to be. When the world felt like a threat and all that. Now it's just pointless spinoff after pointless spinoff...Daryl in France/Maggie and Negan working together still baffles me. BCS serves as a gold standard for how to do a spinoff correctly. Excellent take on this, Jerry!
Watching Better Call Saul before Breaking Bad feels like a curse, it was so peak that it feels nothing can top it… TWD spinoffs on the other hand would put anyone off the entire universe in a single season lol
Excellent video about a great topic! However, Michael Slovis didn’t really work on BCS. He directed one episode in season two, but the show’s DOP was Marshall Adams, and later on Paul Donachie as well. Just thought I’d point it out since I think Marshall in particular deserves a lot of credit for how beautiful the show is. :)
Spin- offs by their nature are a difficult predictor of future success. The writing has to b good enough to satisfy a show's hardcore members as well as attracting new ones
I actually couldn't finish BB because I just simply couldn't get into it. However, I did give BCS and holy sht was I glued to the screen, even without having finished BB I knew what was happening. I think what makes a great spinoff show, it that it can stand on its own without having to rely on numerous references of the main series or use it as an overall crutch. Same goes for any spinoff (movie/show) that has to follow up from an already established universe. I always reference Rouge One from the SW franchise (in relation to this topic) because to this day, I do not watch any SW material whatsoever or even can say that I like it, I just know the very basic stuff casual audiences know. Yet, I sat down to watch Rogue One and it was great, simple, and I can say that I would rewatch just for the fact that it is able to stand on its own without needing to know all the bs lore of SW.
The best case of BCS letting the audience figure things out by themselves is the answer to this question “How did Mike find Jimmy in the desert in Bagman?”
I still straight up refuse to watch dead city. I am in the camp that never liked Negan and still don't like negan and I found his redemption arc in the main show to be severely flawed with plenty of plot holes. However I love how they wrapped up Negan and Maggie in the Season 11 finale. Negan apologizing was in character for him and I loved Maggie's monologue. As far as im concerned that's how their characters ended. I watched every other TWD spin off but I'll never see what happens to Negan or Maggie after the series finale. From what I do know about dead city I think I'd enjoy Fear more
Keep in mind the original creators wrote BCS that wasn’t the case for the TWD spin offs. Of course TWD spin-offs can’t capture the same magic because it’s made by the same people that created the TWD falloff
Can't compare BCS to TWD spin-offs BCS became great prequel to the main story, I wouldn't call it spin off no longer It's great series Twd spin offs are cash grab and writing is weak, show died after 7x01 or atleast it started, something broke in me with that depression in season 7 Negan brought and then they started to drag the war, killed of major characters and it became watching out of habit no longer out of passion, Gimple killing Carl is something I would literally beat the sh*t out of him for I completaly agree with this video❤️
I’ve always said if FTWD was better than what it came out to be, I would still be sticking with the franchise. FTWD left a huge bad taste in my mouth to the point that, combined with the many other fuckups and bad NONcreative decisions, just lost the magic for me.
The Thing About Ones who live, Rick never felt like that Sheriff Rick Grimes. All the badassery, body language, and That Leader Personality gone. Only a Sobby Husband crying for his wife. Rick and Michonne just kissing and having sex all the time or walking somewhere. So Boring and Irritating. What a Shame!!
In my opinion, better call Saul is way better than breaking bad because is a more personal and emotional story. Also Walter sucks in every aspect. I don't know why I thought he was so cool and smart
Dude, i'm getting seriously worried about you !. Maybe it's time to find a therapist because your hatred obsession with The Walking Dead is getting scary !.
Breaking Bad universe knew when to end.
The Walking Dead universe doesn’t.
Nah I don’t want it to ever end. I’ve only disliked Fear TWD. The rest have been awesome
The comics had the perfect layout for how the TV universe should've ended. Civilization in America was rebuilt after the Commonwealth war and Carl had a family of his own, but no we can't have that because AMC wants to milk it to death instead of having that happy ending and focusing on something else.
@ that’s real
I have a feeling that, the main reason the walking dead stopped working well, is because they were afraid to expand the universe from a narrative point of view.
I havent seen twd in years, but theres a lot that could be done with it, that isn't because the status quo is what matters in it.
The cinematography in Better Call Saul is hands down the best I've ever seen.
And to think that I slept on the show for so long...
I literally just finished rewatching BB & BCS. I’ve seen them both over half a dozen times and absolutely love them. It’s so fun to rewatch in chronological order: BCS s1-s6e09, BB in its entirety, El Camino and finally BCS s6e10-13. Definitely the best way to rewatch.
I miss the franchise so much but am so glad they haven’t milked it like TWD. The state of that franchise is just embarrassing. Theres just no passion there anymore, especially in the writers room. That couldn’t be further from the truth with BCS, which easily has the best writing I’ve ever seen, especially with regard to character work.
I might try watching in that order since Ive already seen Breaking Bad all the way through twice and Better Call Saul two and a half times. And I think Ive seen El Camino once or twice.
“Albuquerque isn’t just a backdrop. It’s an integral part of the story.”
This is so true. Just look at the lore behind Fring’s superlab alone.
The fact Vince Gilligan wrote BB, considered to be one of the greatest shows ever and then followed it up with BCS is incredible. Most showrunners dream for one TV show at this level and he did two in the same decade. TWD is just kicking a dead horse. I wish they would have wrote the CRM as the final villian of the series. Connect CRM to France with the variants, experiments, and walkers coming over on ships. They could have even connected to Dead City with the Dhama and explain how she has so much power. But instead we get side quests that take place in their own little bubble. Such a shame. Great video!!
I don't think the sense of dread can be achieved in The Walking Dead anymore. After a decade or so in the universe, the zombies have become normalized - they’re no longer an immediate threat. People have figured out how to deal with them. In my opinion, this is why the Walking Dead universe always had a limited shelf life. The best spinoff idea would be to have a show with six episodes each season from different parts of the world from when the apocalypse started. Or something to that effect. Or just... leave it alone lol.
Better Call Saul was supposed to be one of two spinoffs. Gus was supposed to get a separate spinoff called the rise of Gus. AMC tried milking the Breaking bad universe but Vince Gilligan actually had a spine and chose quality over quantity and combined the two proposed spinoffs into one. Breaking bad was also not supposed to stop at Season 5. AMC aired season 5 over 2 years despite not being a long season to be able to milk the show for an extra year instead of doing a regular 6-8 week mid season break. Vince also left money on the table because God knows it'd watch more breaking bad content and I think they could still get another 2-3 seasons in the universe if they wanted to. But Vince doesn't want to risk wreaking his franchise that he's passionate about. Like Vince Gillian said "after the party is over you don't want to be the guy with the lampshade on your head". Scott Gimple is the hungover guy with a lampshade on his head after a college frat party. I think Scott Gimple is the best writer and show runner the walking dead universe has and I used to defend him even after season 8, but as the chief content officer he was corrupted by his power and he's running his franchise into the ground all for money. He's bending the knee for AMC and kissing the ring for a paycheck. Such a waste of his potential and I have stopped defending him to his haters. He's the worst chief content officer the franchise could have chosen.
Better Call Saul was just a slow poison where no one was "GOOD"...my respect for everyone who was involved in making BCS increases day by day...
And yeah for me BCS>BB.
Better Call Saul is the peak of spinoffs, excellent show 💯
12:00
it's character WHAT?!?!?!?
SAY THAT AGAIN...
Walking Dead spin offs are a complete tease when you look at them in hindsight. Like the potential is there but they choke in the 2nd half all the time. First 3 Seasons of Fear were great then it fell off and became dog water. The Ones who lives started out with a bang the first episode like a movie basically then choked in the 4th and became dog water. Daryl Dixon Season 1 was amazing I was shocked how good it was then they choked again in Season 2 with some more dog water. Walking Dead writers are basically choke artists that suck in 4th quarters when the pressure is on lmao
Ftwd started as it’s own thing, could have been better than the original show, but post season 4 it just became a “walking dead spin-off” show
It was easy to give FTWD a chance because I had been up to date with TWD comics so I had very little surprise to the show, with the exception to them giving comic character arcs to characters made originally for the show after they killed off the characters that originally had those arcs, I.e., Andrea, Dale, Billy, Ben, Sophia, etc. When FTWD had those first three seasons, it felt more grounded as opposed to the more comic book feel that the main show had to match its source material.
Secondly, FTWD went straight in to inner group conflict that was, more or less, resolved by the main shows group as they had better cohesion; the FTWD characters all struggled to stay together and keep healthy relationships among the madness and no matter how hard they tried to stay together, they only made things worse. I’m sure it’s been hammered to death that the original vision for FTWD was to see the characters turn into villains before it was rebooted and became the Morgan show. FTWD had potential to go on as it’s own and end on its own terms but corporate greed got too much in the way.
As somebody who is developing their own "cinematic/extended universe... thing" you pretty much nailed all the points on the head. The Walking Dead is what happens when no one agrees on anything and no planning whatsoever is involved. You can feel it in everything. There's no real reason or cohesion to the character motives, the grander moving story or set pieces. It's just things to do because "we had to make a show." Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul (even Marvel to an extent before Phase 4, Star Wars before Disney, etc) are an example of stories that needed to be told to make one grand story. And I say "stories" plural because they should be actual stories, not just characters doing things to get to point B in spin-off #21 or to sell more merch or prop up streaming services. All the characters in your spin-offs should have unique challenges and an agency to finish their own arc, not just service a franchise point, it's the icing on the cake that they do.
I find it easier when I look at all of them as their own separate stories that have a beginning, middle and end. If the character or setting cannot withstand deep themes or a character arc worth telling than it should not be done. Walking Dead's big mistake was being 11 seasons and then doing even more while still repeating themes and character arcs into redundancy. It was a leviathan task to turn that into a universe with shows and movies that people would stick with. They tried, and had some great ideas but they fumbled EVERY chance they had. It was stunning. The CRM was just a sad mess, the whole PPP card thing. Morgan's crossover, World Beyond's ambiguous ending going nowhere in Daryl, etc. Why even bother if that's how you wrap it up. There's no goal or action taken to make the world feel full and together. It's just stuff.
My main 5 rules are:
1) A character with burning questions needs to be answered, with a story that fuels you as a writer to tell it
2) A significant world-building experience needs to be had, including how it affects the other series/movies
3) Needs to feel apart of the great "fabric" of the universe and essential to setting of the universe (why here?)
4) Needs to address it's own themes, pathos, and worldview
5) Needs it's own visual identity (cinematography/animation/VFX/sound/filter)
That's just how I see it. Walking Dead's handling of it was awful though. I've never seen a bag fumble that hard. What they were trying to do really was not that hard and I have to imagine there were serious external factors or AMC fucking it up over and over again because it makes no sense otherwise.
A feel like, the more Twd got technical quality, worse the script was... Which is a shame, because this show had impeccable actors.
I miss what TWD used to be. When the world felt like a threat and all that. Now it's just pointless spinoff after pointless spinoff...Daryl in France/Maggie and Negan working together still baffles me.
BCS serves as a gold standard for how to do a spinoff correctly. Excellent take on this, Jerry!
Watching Better Call Saul before Breaking Bad feels like a curse, it was so peak that it feels nothing can top it… TWD spinoffs on the other hand would put anyone off the entire universe in a single season lol
I watched the commercials for better call saul before i saw BB on AMC so when I watched the episode better call saul, I was like oh I remember
An amazing show!!! By far surpassed my expectations!!!
Excellent video about a great topic! However, Michael Slovis didn’t really work on BCS. He directed one episode in season two, but the show’s DOP was Marshall Adams, and later on Paul Donachie as well. Just thought I’d point it out since I think Marshall in particular deserves a lot of credit for how beautiful the show is. :)
Spin- offs by their nature are a difficult predictor of future success. The writing has to b good enough to satisfy a show's hardcore members as well as attracting new ones
I actually couldn't finish BB because I just simply couldn't get into it. However, I did give BCS and holy sht was I glued to the screen, even without having finished BB I knew what was happening. I think what makes a great spinoff show, it that it can stand on its own without having to rely on numerous references of the main series or use it as an overall crutch. Same goes for any spinoff (movie/show) that has to follow up from an already established universe.
I always reference Rouge One from the SW franchise (in relation to this topic) because to this day, I do not watch any SW material whatsoever or even can say that I like it, I just know the very basic stuff casual audiences know. Yet, I sat down to watch Rogue One and it was great, simple, and I can say that I would rewatch just for the fact that it is able to stand on its own without needing to know all the bs lore of SW.
Did you go back and finish BrBa? How far did you get into it? It got better as it went along.
@ I never did, I think I got up until half way S3 when I just simply didn’t go back to finish and then picked up BCS around it’s 4th/5th season.
What? I was excited to see a show about Saul Goodman!
The best case of BCS letting the audience figure things out by themselves is the answer to this question
“How did Mike find Jimmy in the desert in Bagman?”
Excellent topic. Thanks!
Never thought that once I wanted a show about Saul the second he came into breaking bad how could you not?
I still straight up refuse to watch dead city. I am in the camp that never liked Negan and still don't like negan and I found his redemption arc in the main show to be severely flawed with plenty of plot holes. However I love how they wrapped up Negan and Maggie in the Season 11 finale. Negan apologizing was in character for him and I loved Maggie's monologue. As far as im concerned that's how their characters ended. I watched every other TWD spin off but I'll never see what happens to Negan or Maggie after the series finale. From what I do know about dead city I think I'd enjoy Fear more
Honestly better call Saul is definitely a *better* show than breaking bad lol
Keep in mind the original creators wrote BCS that wasn’t the case for the TWD spin offs. Of course TWD spin-offs can’t capture the same magic because it’s made by the same people that created the TWD falloff
Idk I enjoyed Daryl Dixon and Dead City more than Better Call Saul
Can't compare BCS to TWD spin-offs
BCS became great prequel to the main story, I wouldn't call it spin off no longer
It's great series
Twd spin offs are cash grab and writing is weak, show died after 7x01 or atleast it started, something broke in me with that depression in season 7 Negan brought and then they started to drag the war, killed of major characters and it became watching out of habit no longer out of passion, Gimple killing Carl is something I would literally beat the sh*t out of him for
I completaly agree with this video❤️
I’ve always said if FTWD was better than what it came out to be, I would still be sticking with the franchise. FTWD left a huge bad taste in my mouth to the point that, combined with the many other fuckups and bad NONcreative decisions, just lost the magic for me.
The Thing About Ones who live, Rick never felt like that Sheriff Rick Grimes. All the badassery, body language, and That Leader Personality gone. Only a Sobby Husband crying for his wife. Rick and Michonne just kissing and having sex all the time or walking somewhere. So Boring and Irritating. What a Shame!!
In my opinion, better call Saul is way better than breaking bad because is a more personal and emotional story. Also Walter sucks in every aspect. I don't know why I thought he was so cool and smart
Dude, i'm getting seriously worried about you !.
Maybe it's time to find a therapist because your hatred obsession with The Walking Dead is getting scary !.
In fairness the point of this was to acknowledge a phenomenal spinoff show and compare it to a poor one. I hear you though!
Probably one of the worst comparisons you can make. I like your videos a lot but this is just laughable 😂
Well, I do appreciate the feedback! I’d love to know your reasoning though, feedback is important for me!