Flying a high density altitude pattern - Sedona AZ - MzeroA Flight Training
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- Опубліковано 13 лис 2017
- m0a.com Join me and Hunter in a lap around the pattern of Sedona Airport in Arizona. The density altitude is over 2000 feet higher than the airport's actual altitude, decreasing our 172's performance.
In this video I explain how and why we lean the machine on take off during these situations and demonstrate skills that can help you in any high density altitude situation.
Hello Jason. Love your videos. I'm a private pilot who has been flying in Colorado for nearly 25 years. Like you, I learned how to fly at sea level. I learned while in the US Navy and never really had too much exposure to high elevation flying, for obvious reasons. I own and fly a 77 Grumman Tiger that I purchased last year with my son who is also a private pilot as of June of 2017. By the way, I purchased your book for him to read and use as a study guide while he was training and he loved it!
Dealing with high density altitudes is a norm around these parts. I found your technique for leaning for max power interesting. It's exactly the way I was taught, however, over the years I've learned that it isn't always the same for every type of piston aircraft. I've flown my share of GA aircraft from Piper to Cessna to Beechcraft and now a Grumman, and I can tell you each has it's own technique for leaning.
For example, in our Tiger, after engine start, we immediately turn off the electric fuel pump and lean the mixture to prevent spark plug fowling. Then we wait for the oil temp to creep up into the green arch about 1/4 of the way, especially in winter. This ensures the engine is nice and warm before we start our taxi to the run up area. At the run up, we follow the POH, which says to throttle up to 1800 RPM, and then we go through the standard checks... carb heat, mags, vacuum, ammeter, fuel pressure, and finally oil temp and pressure. Once those are checked and verified, we perform a full power run up and monitor the EGTs until they are stable. We then lean to find peak EGT and then we enrichen the mixture slightly with one or two turns of the mixture control and watch the EGT drop between 200 and 500 degrees below peak. This allows for better cooling of the engine during the climb. The 0-360 in the Tiger is notorious for running hot at high power in the climb thanks to a tight engine compartment and the way the baffles are designed. Also, the engine tends to hesitate when you apply full throttle if you don't enrichen it after finding peak. Apparently this is a common event among Tigers. Initial RPM on a warm day is around 2300 RPM. As the airplane rolls down the runway and picks up speed, RPM increases to around 2500 as we reach rotation speed. On takeoff, we stay in ground effect until reaching Vx, 70 KIAS in the Tiger, then climb away until 500 AGL and then we lower the nose to Vy, which is 90 KIA at sea level and around 85 KIAS at 5000 and 81 at 8000. We cruise at 2700 up to 10,000. We then set the mixture a second time, running rich of peak. That gives us around 67% horsepower with a TAS of around 135 knots burning 10 GPH. We generally fly at 2200 lbs (Tiger has a max gross weight of 2400 lbs) most of the time and never with full tanks during summer months with more than 2 passengers.
Our home airport is KBJC in Broomfield, Colorado. Field elevation is 5,673 MSL. We're located less than 10 miles from the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, so strong winds, turbulence and every thing else that goes with it is also a norm. If the wind is blowing out of the northwest, west or southwest, you can be sure it'll be a bumpy ride. Anything gusting over 30 knots and most GA will stay on the ground. When the wind is out of the east, that usually means a bit smoother conditions, however, that also means up slope, which is what gives Colorado its weather. If there's lots of moisture to go with that easterly flow, you can bet there will be rain or snow in the forecast, especially if there's a strong low pressure system in the area. So I understand your concern for avoiding those hills in your video during a day of strong winds.
Sorry for the long winded comments. Just thought I'd share some of my "high flying" experiences. Stay sharp, stay current and happy flying!
Loved reading your comment. I fly out of KCOS, right next to Pikes Peak, and your description of the Colorado flying experience was spot on! With consistent 9300 density altitude readings during the summer, it can make for some exciting flights. The winds also bite you quickly, I departed KCOS the other week with calm winds and came back to a lovely 44kts crosswind within the hour. Got to love it! Hope all is well.
Arizona is where I fly all the time. Two of the most interesting experiences I've had or first afternoon summer time between Phoenix and Yuma. There's a solar farm midway between Gila Bend and Yuma. I hit that area when the outside air temperature was 105, and I was at 6000 ft. I experienced and 800 foot per minute climb with the power pulled almost idle and nosing down. What I learned after the fact was just to write it, and let flight following know was happening. Second interesting experience was the first time I landed it and took off from Prescott. I actually didn't change my mixture setting until after I rotated. I realized it wasn't climbing and quickly pulled off a glob of mixture. All of the sudden the power came back and I was able to climb out at a staggering 300 feet per minute. At the time the o a t was 90 degrees, and density altitude was 9000 feet.
That small mountain on final in front of the runway is a trip! Love Sedona. Did a cross country there a few months ago from Falcon Field.
That's awesome! Sedona is beautiful! Thanks for watching!
So you're the out of towner landing on runway 21 haha, Overall great video! I would just recommend for anyone else that's looking at flying to Sedona to avoid landing runway 21 as much as possible. It's general practice to land runway 03 and take off runway 21 due to the runway gradient. There's also a lot of downdrafts coming in on 21, and you're overflying the town in a noise sensitive area. Thanks for coming to Arizona and the video!
It’s even in the A/FD. It’s common in Sedona to have landing and takeoff traffic alternate between 3 and 21, assuming wind is under 10 kts.
I'm from Vegas and have flown to Sedona a few times. Only to have the winds favor 21 every time. I've always flown my pattern a little high due to that hill on final. I think I'd feel more comfortable with a downhill landing than a significant tail wind. Especially at that airport. But it's a fun airport to fly into.
In a taildragger like my RV-8, you generally want to avoid landing with any tailwind component. Much more so than in a tricycle gear plane. I personally would not land with any tailwind component.
Started my flight training out of Sedona back in the 80's and taking off on 21 and landing on 03 was standard procedure at that airport unless the winds were really extreme so I am in agreement with Aviation Guys . I also remember having to come in high into 03 because of the updrafts would quit (and you would lose lift and altitude ) after you passed the drop-off on final. If the guys in this video wanted a real density altitude challenge, they could go about 22 miles north to Flagstaff where the field elevation is 7011 feet. I would guess that density altitude that day was better than 10,000 feet. Having said that, if they have never dealt with high density altitude before, it is better to take it in steps to get a feel of how the airplane will perform before taking that on. Don't place too much faith in book values since the airplanes that are tested to get those numbers are new and are flown by experts. Always add a generous fudge factor until one gets a better idea how the airplane (and the pilot) will perform!
Flew into there yesterday, read all the info, and watched all the videos -- "favor 03 even with some tailwind." Winds were too strong to make landing 03 seem like a smart idea. Don't just blindly follow some of these things, analyze the weather and use good ADM.
I've landed at airports with 10,000 density altitude, and learned to just fly indicated airspeed and not pay attention to true. You are going to land a lot faster over the ground and take more runway than you are used to in Florida, so just plan on that. If you chase true airspeed on final, you might end up too slow, Keep the indicated where you would normally have it.
Correct, the aircraft will stall at a higher TAS but at the same IAS, so really nothing has changed except using up more runway. Unless of course the pilot is preforming an instrument approach, then TAS is important.
Exactly perfect comments. We care about what is flowing over the wings to support our weight, especially at high ambient temps.
@@Jetairplane why is true airspeed important on an instrument approach?
@@Alohalingui True airspeed +/- wind = your ground speed. Your rate of descent is dependent upon your ground speed for an instrument approach.
Did my first 150nm+ solo flight to Sedona. Got some beautiful memories from that trig.
I fly a 172P out of KE95 Benson AZ, we get 6500' DA regularly and lots of days over 7000' DA. I usually lean to peak rpm on runup then enrich about 1/8" rich of peak rpm. We use that up to about 3000' agl, lean further if going higher. On landing it's all KIAS: 1 notch of flaps and 70 KIAS on downwind descent and base, turn to base is determined by altitude (Pattern Altitude -200 or -250'). Turn to final is 20° bank or less then 62 KIAS over the numbers. We come in high deliberately and usually cut power about 400 - 500' before the runway.
First time I have seen Jason suffer a "pucker" factor, good times.
He has a video of a landing at 200' minimums with his wife - solid pucker factor on that one as well. :)
Add this to the list of awesome things: Jason, whom I've looked up to as a pilot for years, struggling in the same conditions that I completed all of my flight training in.
One thing that would have been a nice addition to this video is briefing an abort point for the takeoff and landing. With high DA, touching down "a bit long" can turn disastrous so it's important to predetermine a must-be-down-by point and commit to going around if not firmly on the ground at that spot. And of course the 50/70 rule on every takeoff.
In this case the runway was plenty long to offer significant margin for error in the 172, so it's not a critique of the flying - just something I thought would add to the teaching aspect.
Yes
Thank you for this video. I learned a ton about taking off in high density today. That trick to lean out at max rpm did the trick. Awesome!
Glad it helped!
Thank you for that video. Very interesting and I was extra happy to see subtitle there under!
Aaaaah .... flyin around natures aircraft carrier (aka "The U.S.S Sedona"). Brings back lots of happy memories!!
Bob Smith hah! I like that is a great nickname!
MzeroA Flight Training Thats what my CFI called the place! Lol
Great video. Most don’t get taught this. It should be required.
With that terrain I would certainly fly a tight enough pattern that I could make the field from anywhere in the pattern if something went wrong. That's certainly not the place for a wide-flung pattern and a long final.
Unless you're lined up on final, you're not going to make that runway from anywhere else in the pattern unless you're super high-time or a CFI. It requires a super precise landing just coming in normal, let alone with an engine out on downwind.
congratulations from Brazil... your videos are amazing... blue sky ever Capt.
Yes, it was difficult to climb on C152 in MSFS flight school at Sedona. Lean the mixture is the solution.
Sedona's AFD says no pattern work.. but great video nonetheless! We'll call this a "scenic overflight tour"
When Jason looks scared you know you better have your a game up! Great Landing good teamwork boys
Good one, Jason. My first experience at high DA (being a flatlander from Houston) was a real eye-opener back in 2015, flying in and out of Boulder Municipal with a DA of about 6,000 in a C182. Three souls on board, close to max gross (careful planning to not have full fuel!), and leaning properly. Still, at that weight, used up a lot of runway!
Just came across this video! I love Sedona, I can't wait to be able to fly there.
Thank you for coming out to our backyard and making some amazing videos as usual
brandon pelke what a beautiful area you live in!
I’m going to flight school in Goodyear, AZ. Sedona is only a 50min flight from here. Sedona is first on
my list of $100 burgers once I’ve earned my certificate. 👍🏾
Thanks for watching! Sedona is a beautiful airport to fly into!
1. Don't be afraid of turbulence a.k.a. thermal or dynamic up- and downdrafts. Fly gliders before trying anything else. If that's already too late, go and treat yourself to some hours of glider flying, preferably in mountainous terrain (and that goes for Jason S too!).
2. Like Glider123 stipulated: IAS is king. Maybe try some stalls in mid-air to get the numbers right for your particular aircraft. Treat any high altitude airport, however long the runway, as you would a short field. On final, choose an aiming point well before the threshold at 1.3 Vs and start pitching up and reducing speed before you actually reach the threshold (hold off in ground effect early, if you will). It will reduce your landing roll considerably.
3. Practice practice practice. At or near(er) sea level, ask your instructor to take you to as many short fields as possible.
So, if you have a direct crosswind and a sloping runway, I’d argue that you should take off downhill and land uphill. It’s a nice big paved runway, so you can use a normal pattern, but in a backcountry strip, generally one follows thr slope of the runway, unless the winds are fairly strongly favoring one.
I agree with your view, however during a strong gusting wind situation, I would just follow what the wind socks is telling me.
You looked like you were really enjoying yourself! Great video 👍
That was helpful on leaning out technique at 7000 feet density altitude.
Should not be chasing true airspeed.. Indicated airspeed is what matters, during any phase of flight. Just flew the bonanza up there and DA was 6600'.
I agree. I'm based in Durango. You cannot control both IAS and TAS. Fly IAS...the TAS will be whatever it is depending on temperature and field elevation on the day and time.
I’m currently working on my PPL in Alabama (just did my first solo last week) and love Sedona. Planning to make a trip to Sedona one of my first long flights after I get my license and a bit of practice in areas that aren’t nearly at sea level.
I land there all the time to go mountain bike riding. I fly a Cherokee 140 and it is a great place to land. It really does tests ones skills. Thanks for the video.
Richard Trepanier that’s a fun idea! I bet the trails around there are great! Does your Cherokee fit the bike easy?
I rent from a bike store at the foot of the Mesa.
Thanks for the takealong.Shakey conditions, but a good pilot can probably adjust to anything.
I've landed in Sedona once before; amazing experience.
Great video as usual. Very informative. What time of day are you flying and what’s the temp?
Lol. I’m based out of Colorado. This is the daily situation there 😂. Love your videos man. Tailwinds!
Why such a large pattern? Where would you go with an engine failure?
For laughs I flew Phoenix to Sedona in FSX tonight, of course, after watching this earlier today, well, it's a fast flight over, but wheww it's no tupperware party! Yep, in the Grand Caravan I had to go around once, came in a tad too high and the power was all over the place due to windage and stuff, anyway, I came around again and got my alt. and speed nailed, I managed it! I was pretty damned excited. What fun! I cannot imagine attempting this airport in no visibility or awful stormy weather, no thanks. I notice you will lose power faster at this alt. as you come in for the approach, gotta really watch that, it demands a bit more throttle as you come down for final 1000 ft. or so. The runway is a decent length, that's not even the issue. I also did bounce a tiny bit once as I touched down, proving FSX is truer to reality than one might think. Jason does it again.
Love this video , learning in colorado has me in the opposite position
I learned so much! Thx
I have flown to SODONA before！Awesome place！
I have flow in there twice, second time i went i had lunch with a buddy. we took of runway 21, about a 10 knot headwind right when we crossed the runway threshold and the mountain drops of we hit a huge up draft. obviously it was the wind coming up the mountain, but my buddy did not know that and he let out a yelp lol i still give him crap for it to this day.
When were you at KSEZ? Those conditions sound similar to when I was up there last at the beginning of October.
I’m based in AZ and have done all of my training here, regularly flying in and out of high density altitude situations. Ryan Airfield (Tucson) to Sedona was my first cross-country as a private pilot. Standard procedure for setting the mixture in my experience is just before mag check and not at full power. Specifically, on start and taxi lean about 1”, as you did. At run up, rpm to 1700 then lean the mixture until rpm drop, quickly sliding it back in 1/2 way to full rich from that position, then mag check, etc. I’ve never heard of setting the mixture at full power, but see no reason why not. I’m curious if anyone else who has done most of their flying in the mountains has an opinion or comment about which way they were taught or which way they prefer.
Eric Klein I'm from Vegas and during the summer I also lean during my run up at 1700 rpm. I generally will lean to peak and then give three turns rich. Then continue with the rest of my checklist. Seems to work really well. It's probably about the same as 1/2 like you said.
Hey Eric, are any of those flying schools still around at Ryan Field? (Ie IATA, NPA??)
Eric, I learned the same high DA leaning procedure as you while at Ft. Collins in a Citabria.
One of my flight school buddies had a pretty severe prop strike at Sedona.
Nice flying. Good patience letting the aircraft slow down with aero braking, not forcing it down on the runway.
You didn't mention explicitly, but the mixture should stay leaned for best power even on landing. It might be a trap to want to push full rich as part of the before landing checklist, which could reduce performance on climbout if a go-around becomes necessary.
could also flood the engine going full rich
Nice video!
great video. i love flying into Sedona..... page is a fun one too
I did 7500' DA in my SR20 at E38 yesterday. I was 350 lbs *below* MGTOW. Worked OK!
That's good stuff! My palms were kinda sweating on that landing lol
Yea!! Between the challenging crosswind, the downward slopping runway and the float caused by the high density altitude, it was a lively landing!
I do not feel comfortable flying such a wide pattern like that plus you were calling it tight. Here’s a question; what if you lost your engine, would you make it back to the runway? I always teach my students to keep it nice and tight. Granted it’s a high density altitude but it wouldn’t make that big of a difference to get to pattern altitude.
Whaat and how many audio adapter for go Pro are you using to produce this video?
Wow! Thank You! Guys this really helps
Our pleasure! Glad it helped!
Jason, enjoyed the video. Trying to learn about density altitude and it’s importance. Not a highlight of most videos
Awesome video. Can't wait to get into some mountain flying.
I’ve flown that exact plane at my school!
N1097N!! I put alot of time in that plane!! Out of SDL
How would this be done in an aircraft with a constant speed prop? Would you lean for maximum fuel flow or manifold pressure??
you lean to max power fuel flow for the density altitude in question, per the POH. Many C/S equipped airplanes do not have best power lines with their corresponding density altitudes placarded on the fuel flow gauge, hell, carburated engines with C/S props don't even have a fuel flow gauge. On those you would have to do the old lean to roughness, then add two full turns in order to approximate best power fuel flow (which is generally 2GPH richer than the roughness point, which is closer to peak EGT or Lean o peak depending on the spread, injected engines having a tighter cylinder spread than carbs and thus able to lean farther before roughness).
Additionally, if EGT equipped, you would lean to 150 degrees rich of the peak EGT reading. This would work regardless of altitude.
Nice Land!!
You did not mention Rudder during flight instrument check on run up checklist.
It's important to check it in a front wheel airplane!
When you are taxiing, you are using front wheel for turns, as it has much more control on the ground than aerodynamic effects, and it's easy to miss that rudder does not work correctly
Does it provide more aerodynamic breaking if the flaps are kept down?
The flaps are immediately put up to reduce lift and the nose of the plane is slightly lifted. The nose-high attitude exposes more of the craft's surface-area to the flow of air, which produces greater drag, helping to slow the plane.
It also shifts CG back forcing more weight down on the main wheels thus allowing for more effective mechanical braking. Particularly helpful during conditions of reduced braking action.
To add a bit of more complexity to the already complex situation...would this be an airport you would fly at night? I know I sure wouldn't! :)
When I consider the risks of flying I always ask myself: "Would I take my wife and two children flying in this situation?" If it is risky, the answer is always no. I do my best to fly only day VFR. What are your personal minimums?
PAVE
Jason that is the question I also ask myself. 100% of the time the answer is No. And I fly out of your backyard KDED.
Night in dark (unpopulated) or unfamiliar mountains is an IFR only procedure for me.
In a straight crosswind you should land uphill. The first pilot had the right idea.
I guess I'll be a better than average pilot since I'm a student who's only experience consists of taking off and landing on the tabletop!
That's good practice! Thanks for watching!
I am a new pilot. My question deals more with turbulence and the aircraft capabilities/control in turbulence. You have a video on how to handle turbulence?
Hey Scott!
I'd be happy to help with any questions you have regarding turbulence! I have provided one of our videos below that talks about different intensities of turbulence.
ua-cam.com/video/JgwMxoqjcLQ/v-deo.html
I think I was more interested in understanding how to overcome the mental block and fear of turbulence. I understand the reporting report requirements and criteria but I guess the question more as long the lines of just how well-built are the aircraft and how much turbulence can they take and what should my attitude about turbulence be.
This is confusing because it looks like you're calling your IAS true airspeed instead of indicated. You're looking at the glass panel which means it has to be indicated airspeed. Why are you calling it TAS?
Best month to visit Sedona?
DA of 6,900 ft with two on board isn't too extreme in a 172.
Jim A yea it really wasn’t too bad. We were getting 300-400fpm
Been in and out of Sedona a few times different birds.
The one time I got real serious about takeoff abort point in my planning, was when it was my fat ass and my instructor, in a diamond katana.
She came off OK though. Thanks for the video,
Next time land on 03 takeoff 21.
You could have used at least 2 cm more of that runway ;)
Front wheel was off the ground on taxi
2:55 who the hell turns and reports a 10 mile final at an uncontrolled airport that isn't busy?
I think it’s good etiquette. I just finished my first solo out of the airspace to a uncontrolled airport and reported my position with my pattern entry intentions 10 miles out. On takeoff I noticed a plane doing maneuvers only 300-400 AGL and lost him. Tried contacting him but no response. Announced I was climbing and flying straight out of 17 and hoped for the best.
Nemo 5 mile final isn’t even in the pattern yet too
@@bryand8605 it's not good etiquette. Its poor communication. You are not on final 10 miles out. At that point you are inbound for landing. Better call is "..... traffic Skyhawk 132 RM is 10 mi south straighten landing 36. ..... Traffic". If your departure airport is is line with the RWY, are you on a 20 mile final? No. Flythe friendly skies has a great video about this
@@KyleD237 150 more hours under my belt. I completely agree. Oh and also leave out the "Traffic please advise". Haha
The AIM says to provide position reports and state your intentions within ten nautical miles of the airport. You never know if an airport's busy or not until you get there. Sounds like good etiquette to me.
I must just not be privy to the joke because I can't figure out why it says "altitute" on the thumbnail.
Maybe i misunderstood.. with thinner air at 7500 ft why does the aircraft not want to land? I would think it would be opposite.
17kt crosswind maybe?
Perhaps because of the downslope?
Need less shots inside the cockpit. More of the beautiful scenery.
Great video!! You might have wanted to start out the video by giving the definition of density altitude and what affects it has on the aircraft.
Guess that's why the other guy landed on 3 :)
Seriously... You really are telling people to fly true air speed. SMH
Arizona is a little more interesting to fly then Florida
Fly indicated airspeed not true! Allow for the float because of the TAS. You don’t want the novice to stall because you have slowed too much on the indicated!