DragonballPTK Jr. - i’ve watched it like 3 times and know way too much. goku was always stronger, even from the beginning. look to the roshi training arc where goku outdid krillin in every way, and the wmat where they fought each other and goku beat him in “1” punch. he was always stronger
Yamcha has always been the strongest, in the battle of Gods movie ssj3 Goku couldn’t hit beerus, where as yamcha hits him casually My boy yamcha is high above the gods
That's our boy yamcha...also vegeta isn't just mad that goku is always 2 steps passed him....hes pissed at yamcha the most...not only cuz he hit beerus..but because yamcha wrecked bulmas asshole
People give Yamcha crap about being beat by Saibamen and 20, but they forget that both times, it was because he did not realize he was even in a fight. The Saibaman jumped on him after Yamcha thought it was dead, and had to kill itself in order to kill Yamcha. 20 took Yamcha by surprise because he had no ki and looked like an old man, and also had the power to drain chi with his hand. Something even Piccolo himself almost was killed by later.
Yamcha didn’t even have time to power up to try to escape from the Saibaman’s grip. In the manga, the Saibaiman self-destructs immediately after grabbing onto Yamcha.
I just wanna say thanks to you guys because you are real fans you get it. I believe there are too many blatant DBZ haters in disguise. It’s like anybody can say hey I’m a fan, when you listen to what they have to say you can obviously tell they are straight up hater of DBZ.
Android 20 is stronger than Frieza though remember 17 & 18's power was said to dwarf even Frieza's so it would stand to reason that while 19 & 20 are not on par with 17 & 18 they are at the very least stronger than Freeza.
Good points, and I agree. In fact if you use filler Yamcha and Krillin were even training with and competing with the other world fighters implying they were perhaps somewhat comparable to even base Goku in the Buu saga who had trouble with some of those fighters. In the Bojack movie they even make a point to portray Tien as equal or superior to post cell games future trunks in base, forcing him to go SSJ to win. So consistently the humans in DBZ have been comparable to base level Goku and Vegeta, and base Goku and Vegeta have long since surpassed Namek arc Frieza.
All filler in Kai is canon bcuz the Anime is Synonymous to DBZ The Manga. These are Akira Toriyama those were Akira Toriyama‘s words. Rest in power to him. This also means old school DBZ is not canon. This is something a lot of fans ignore.
@@ztr5934 Obviously because they grew stronger overtime. Not only that , but even Vegeta and Trunks got their asses whooped by the Androids and they were super saiyans so that wouldn't make a difference.
@@pizzweak580 so lemme get this straight. All might. Someone who can barely destroy an island. Can defeat yamcha. With even the lowball a planet buster. Please tell me. What crack are you on?
Yamcha did surpass Freeza during 3 years of prep for Androids. Here is the proof! Chapter 330- Page 9/14 Context: Freeza arrives on Earth and Z warriors feel his ki. Yamcha asks if this really how strong Freeza is. Gohan:”This is nothing. He can increase it a lot more.” Significance: Mecha Freeza is not as strong as 100% Freeza on Namek, and possibly not even 50% Freeza on Namek. Chapter 330- Page 13/14 Context: Freeza and King Cold prepare to wait for Goku, and Freeza boasts about his power up from being having cyber parts. Freeza: “ With my increased power, I could kill him by myself.” Significance: Freeza is confident that at his full power he can defeat the SSJ Goku that beat him. Though he doesn’t sense ki so this could just be random bloating, as Trunks disproves it rather quickly. Chapter 331- Page 8/18 Context: Trunks tells Freeza and King Cold he is here to stop them quickly. Trunks: “ I will kill both of you instantly.” Significance: Trunks is very confident in his ability to kill King Cold and Freeza without having to try very hard. Chapter 331 - Page 9-18 Context: Trunks prepares to attack Freeza as a SSJ. Trunks: “ Attacking should be with full power.” Significance: Trunks is opting go SSJ and kill Freeza from the start. This shows that Mecha Freeza was stronger base Trunks. Chapter 331- Page 13/18 Context: Trunks becomes SSJ and the Z warriors feel his ki. Gohan: “ It’s the same size ki as Dad’s when he was on Namek.” Significance: SSJ Trunks vs Mecha Freeza = SSJ Goku on Namek = 150 million. Chapter 332- Page 4/14 Context: Freeza is killed by Trunks and everyone is blown away. Vegeta/Gohan(?):” He actually could instantly vaporize Freeza.” Significance: SSJ Trunks easily killed Mecha Freeza. Chapter 332- Page 6/14 Context: King Cold acknowledges Trunks ability to beat Freeza. King Cold: “You instantly beat my son Freeza.” Significance: More reiterating that SSJ Trunks is way stronger than Mecha Freeza. Chapter 334- Page 1/14 Context: Goku is explaining that Freeza passed by him in space, and questions who killed the Tyrant. Piccolo: “ He was the one who instantly destroyed him.... and he’s a SSJ like you.” Significance: Piccolo is also reiterating that SSJ Trunks is way stronger than Freeza. Chapter 334- Page 3/14 Context: Trunks pulls Goku away to talk privately about why he had come here. Trunks:” Actually you could have defeated them easily.....” Significance: Trunks is claiming that Goku could’ve defeated Freeza, and hasn’t even seen his SSJ power yet. Though it should be noted that he could be imagining a SSJ Goku based on Future Gohan’s description and feeling base Goku’s ki. But it more than likely refers to base Goku based on Trunks uncertainty about Goku being able to go SSJ at will. Chapter 334- Page 5/14 Context: Trunks explains his reasons for coming to meet Goku, and see if he is as strong as Future Gohan said. Trunks:” Can you become a SSJ of your own will?” Significance: Trunks was confident in seeing just base goku that he could defeat Freeza, but doubted his ability to defeat the androids. This implies his earlier line about Goku beating Freeza easily was actually about Base Goku. Chapter 334- Page 7/14 Context: Z warriors react to Goku going SSJ. Vegeta: “No wonder he could defeat Freeza.” Significance: Vegeta believes Goku can defeat Freeza with ease as a SSJ, but doubts his base being able to do so. Chapter 334- Page 8/14 Context: SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku compared themselves. Goku: “ I see... it really is very similar.” Significance: Goku notes that Trunks powered up in a similar manner to himself, suppressing the SSJ form. This gives the implication that Goku is suppressed as a SSJ since Trunks uses a suppressed SSJ. This also means Suppressed SSJ Goku and SSJ Trunks are stronger than SSJ Future Gohan. Chapter 334- Page 13:14 Context: Trunks is comparing Goku to what he had heard from Gohan. Trunks:” You really do live up to your reputation, and your a lot stronger than I thought.” Significance: Future Gohan was sure Goku could’ve defeated the Future Androids, and Goku is even stronger than what he thought. Though it could also simply mean now Trunks can confide in Gohan’s confidence in Goku. This also shows that Goku is suppressed. Chapter 334-Page 13/14 Context: After sparring with Goku, Trunks gives his conclusion. Trunks: ”And this sword just cut through Freeza like butter.” Goku: “Actually you had no intention of fighting me.” Significance: Trunks used the same power against Freeza that he did against SSJ Goku’s finger. Goku says that Trunks is holding back and is capable of much more. This means SUPPRESSED SSJ Trunks = 150 million. Which is greater than SSJ Future Gohan. Chapter 335-Page 2/14 Context: Trunks is explain how strong the androids are in relation to past enemies goku has faced. Trunks: “They’re incredibly strong, beyond anything you have known.” Chapter 335-Page 3/14 Context: Trunks continues to describe the androids power to Goku. Goku: “If you, who defeated Freeza, think they’re a handful, then they must be really strong.” Trunks: “Um... I tried to fight them but since it was two against one, I barely managed to survive.” Significance: Trunks was suppressed and able to kill Freeza, but even at full power he can’t beat the androids. Chapter 335-Page 4/14 Context: Trunks reiterating that the androids are stronger than SSJ. Trunks: “ They’re just too strong!” Chapter 335-Page 5/14 Context: Goku comparing his future to his current self. Trunks: “Aren’t you afraid of them?” Goku: “ Of course I’m scared, but I want to see how strong they are.” Significance: Goku acknowledges Trunks strength, and that the androids could be interesting foes. Admiring he is scared, suggests that Goku is pretty much on par with Trunks. Chapter 335-Page 9/14 Context: Trunks decides to give Goku the antidote for the heart virus he will contract. Trunks: “Now that I’ve met you, I have hope again.” Significance: Trunks is confident that Goku can defeat the androids or at least tip the scales in the Z warriors favor. Chapter 336-Page 1/14 Context: Narrator is reiterating Trunks point about androids strength. Narrator: “.... two Androids with amazing power will appear....” Significance: The narrator is now confirming that Androids > SSJ > Freeza. This means that anyone who even fights with androids, should be above Freeza level! Chapter 336-Page 5/14 Context: Piccolo explains that the androids are leagues above anything they have faced. Piccolo: “I’m going to say this beforehand. Those without confidence don’t need to come! This time, the enemy is unusual... If you can’t fight you’ll just get in the way.” Significance: If one can’t beat Freeza then they do not have the confidence to defeat Androids who can defeat SSJ’s who can defeat Freeza. Chapter 336-Page 7/14 Context: Z warriors elect to train to prepare for androids. Tenshinhan: “ I want to fight, as a test of strength.” Significance: Tien knows the androids are stronger than SSJ which is stronger than Freeza, yet he still prepared to fight the androids. Chapter 336-Page 8/14 Context: Z warriors agree to meet back in 3 years after training to combat androids. Goku: “Really only those with confidence should come.” Significance: Goku is also reiterating Piccolo’s point about SSJ being weaker than the androids. This line refers to power, and if they don’t have the confidence to beat Freeza, then they shouldn’t show up. Actually this could imply that EVERYONE who shows up to face androids is stronger than Freeza. Including, Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha. Cross Reference Chapter 211-Page 3/15 Context: Kaio is describing the power difference between the saiyans and himself. Kaio: “ Matter of fact, they’re stronger than me!” Goku: “ Waah!? Str, stronger than you?!” Page 4/15 Kaio: “You got it. So to outdo them, you’ll have to out do me... AT THE VERY LEAST.” Significance: If Goku can not defeat Kaio who is weaker than the Saiyans, then it stands to reason that Goku can not defeat the Saiyans as well. Similar logic should be applied, if you can’t beat Freeza, what chance do you have against the Androids? It should be noted that Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien all show up to fight in both instances, and all 3 were above Raditz in the Saiyan saga, so since they surpassed the minimum standard then, it’s safe to say Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien are all stronger than Freeza. Each one of them is weaker than base Goku, so by default Base Goku > 100% Freeza on Namek. Chapter 337- Page 3/14 Context: Z warriors gather to meet to face Androids after 3 years of prep. Krillin: “ We’re going to fight some monsters to the end..... and I’m not a SSJ.” Significance: Krillin is saying that he doesn’t compare to the SSJ Power Goku and Trunks displayed 3 years ago. However, he doesn’t have to be stronger than SSJ to be above Freeza. Chapter 337-Page 8/14 Context: Z warriors are all gathered and are Tien: “ I didn’t let Chaozu come. To be honest, he isn’t strong enough.” Goku: “ Oh... it’s better to leave him behind then.” Significance: Chaozu is for not stronger enough to even show up to fight, so he is more than likely not even above Freeza. Though this still implies Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien to ALL be above Freeza.
Darshan Asmoro thank you, next time I will, but imo as long as the translation is accurate in depicting the story, then whether or not it’s “official” doesn’t matter to me. They called him Vegerott lol But thank you for letting me know where to find full Viz!!! 👍👌
DragonBallDave363 still its more accurate than fan translations. In the fan translation old kai stated that since goku and vegeta are rivals their fusion is stronger but that wasnt the case in the viz. Good analyzing though!
So what I'm getting thanks to Gohan dialogue is after 3 years training: Androids > SSJs > Earthlings > 3 ~ 30 or 50% Namek Freeza Note: Gohan never saw or felt 100% Freeza in the manga.
Seth: Argues Base saiyans from buu saga slapping cell saga ssjs. Carthu: Argues anyone from Android saga could slap frieza and ssj Goku. I love these guys. It's interesting
Ashura970 I disagree with Seth, but I believe Carthu is spot on in this video with his point. Even ignoring his calculations, and just going off of statements in the manga it’s clear that Yamcha, Tien, and Krillin can all beat Freeza. Each one of them is weaker than base Goku, so it stands to show that Goku is that much stronger. Unless we believe they are stronger than base goku, which I highly doubt. The same can said of Piccolo. He is implied to be at SSJ levels of strength, but is still weaker than the SSJs’.
I don't think a lot of people doubted that base Goku and Vegeta could beat frieza. There's so much proof supporting that they can with one of the things saying other wise was Beerus's comment in battle of Gods film.
@@Dragonballdave363 No, the statements don't imply that. In fact, the opposite is implied: Tenshinhan describes Trunks as "The man who took down Freeza" (Implying only Trunks and the SSJs can take on Freeza) and on their way to the island Kuririn tells Goku that "Not all of us are Super Saiyans", showing that he's nowhere near Super Saiyan power. Them being weaker than Base Goku only further solidifies that. There's no evidence implying Goku made any outstanding gains in the 3 years, and even after 14 years of training it's stated Base Goku is weaker than Freeza. Agreed about Piccolo. He's on the same realm of power as the Saiyans, but he's still not a Super Saiyan. He's only stated to surpass Super Saiyan after he fuses with Kami.
Freiza>>base sayan yamatcha kurilln tein It is not stronger, it is impossible to be stronger When he returned from Yardat, his base was not much stronger than it had been in Namek Frieza was 40 times stronger than Goku's base So you're saying they evolved 40-120 times If at all even Yamacha is stronger than Frieza!!! Base vegeta should be stronger than ssj namek three years ago Because Vegeta's base is stronger than Goku's base, Goku's base is stronger than Gohan, whose role is stronger than Krillin, and Tenchihan, who is stronger than Yamacha. So there is a big difference, even if their base is really that strong Piccolo is the power of the Saiyan base I see no justification for using ssj, just base sayan they will overcome them Remember that once Vegeta became stronger, 33% became confident of his ability to defeat him if he were a little stronger than Goku Namek. 33% or even less would be confident of defeating the Android in the base. I want to mention something else You do not have to be much stronger than your opponent to defeat him easily A mere 5% would be like fighting Zarbon, a close, even fight. 10% is a medium gap with a little bit of struggle like Doudria and Vegeta. 33% is a huge gap like Kyo and Vegeta, a gap that enables him to defeat him with one hit. This is an illogical increase in force Goku increased the period of peace in the Piccolo arc to the Raditz arc in five years of peace The rate of 4% from 400 to 408 for Saiyans does not increase much during the period of peace While Tenchihan increased his strength from 240 to 250 Krillin from 200 to 206 While Yamacha's strength decreased from 180 to 177 Piccolo 390 to 408 So in the Yarat period he did not earn much Let's talk about intensive training. Even intensive training with Kami over three years made his base only 60 percent stronger, and this with a trainer without whom he would make smaller gains. If you were to tell me about Krillin and Yamacha Goku's gains in Saiyan Saga or in a spaceship Goku used a gravity device trained by Kai to obtain his gains While both Krillin and Yamacha were trained by Master Popo as well As for Piccolo's percentage, it was at the level of SSJ because he destroyed the androids that were able to harm SSJ, Goku and Vegeta. As I said a simple gap is all it takes to finish off your opponent Android 19 was able to hurt Vegeta's lip, which shows that the SSJ-level Android was Vegeta's equivalent like Zarbon and Doudria on Namek. If you say that he was destroyed with just one hit, use the Ping Bang Strike, which has doubled his strength by 25% above his level. This looks like the Masenbo that hit Raditz The other proof is that it is impossible to be a base level Saiyan and then go to the SSJ level just by merging The fusion of Kami and Piccolo is only doubled because they are both Namekians, which are one Namekian whose power is separated into two parts, which is different. Piccolo has reached SSJ, which confirms that they did not gain much Another piece of evidence is that Krillin compared SSJ's strength to Piccolo in the manga. There was a picture of Piccolo training as SSJ. Add that he knows Goku's power changes ssj So Piccolo got a huge boost in strength because he got a strong fighting partner I want you to add that Gohan was disrupting them because he has ki strength that is three times weaker than Goku, which did not increase Goku much. Even in terms of yards, because he was in a period of peace, all he got was less than 4 percent, and he focused on techniques and mastering SSJ instead of increasing his strength. Add that 20 was stronger than 19 in the beginning 19 then received a huge power boost While 20 was weaker than 19, but not much after absorbing energy. 20 absorbed a lot of energy from Vegeta, Yamacha's energy, and Piccolo's energy I want to talk about boosting a spacecraft, which raised the gravity level continuously from 10 to 100, while Vegeta raised the gravity device to 300, then moved to 400. These are crazy payments due to the unlocking of the capabilities of Gohan and the Zenkai that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan obtained. This Zenkai decreased after Namek, according to what Zenkai says, so it will not become the strongest massive form. Add that even a gap between enemies was not as strong as Frieza's forms Where 18 was a gap like Vegeta and Kyo when he arrived on Namek, 17 was stronger than him, a gap larger than the gap between Dodria and Vegeta. While 16 and 17 represented 16 gaps like Kyo and Vegeta Cell was the same as the power of 16, then he added the power of 17 to it. So the gap was 75 percent So, after training in the Spirit and Time Room, Trunks and Vegeta were only four times stronger in base, but they focused on surpassing SSJ and obtained grade 2 and 3, which doubled their base more. Also I want to add something Trunks' strength when he arrived was weaker than Goku's, which apparently caused him to defeat Frieza easily First, Frieza did not reach his full power because Gohan said that Frieza's name had greater power than that While King Cold has a strength slightly stronger than half of Frieza's strength, which is a huge gap Add that Frieza was weaker than the Namek Frieza because he decided to bring his father with him The gap between his name and Frieza was a good gap (25% higher than Doudria and Vegeta's 10%). Goku just wanted to break Frieza's arrogance so he didn't kill him Add that you can see a slight power difference between Goku and Gohan Where SSJ Gohan was slightly stronger than SSJ Goku. After seven years, Goku hasn't even gotten much stronger Because vegeta compare ssj 2 gohan ssj2 goku If he got a big boost, it wouldn't be a comparison. Rather, he might compare it to SSJ 1 Goku and SSJ 2 Gohan, who was stronger than he was in the Tenshikai Budakai arc. Add that Goku obtained Zenkai, perhaps after the Battle of Cell
The androids didn’t calculate Goku going to Namek remember? That’s why they were shocked when he went Super Saiyan. At most they was referring to Kaio-Ken x4 Goku
He also forgot the weight training and the zenkai boost he got on Namek. Dr. Gero never knew about saiyan biology to ever get an accurate calculation about Goku's power level anyways so using gero's calculation is actually not a good move for the theory.
@emille mcmillan yeah I didn't say he was wrong I was actually backing him by say he makes sense with the narrative scaling. I was just saying the math he used was off for all the reasons other have pointed out. Gero didn't know certain things about Goku and etc however it is impressive that he made himself and Android 19 so strong that they would've easily beaten SSJ Goku that returned to Earth before Trunks warned them so they could train.
@GodVanisher I think that using multiplier of 20 per year for Gero's estimations is extremely bloated. Yes, Goku became approximately that much stronger when he was dead for a year, but it is a bit weird to think that Gero would use an exponential scale that extreme. Even though Goku's strength grows exponentially (which is extremely stupid power scaling IMHO) it doesn't do that by default training but due to some extreme training (allowed by senzu beans), zenkai boosts, and transformations. And Gero most certainly hadn't think the progress to be a multiplier of 20 per year, since most of his observation is from Goku going from maybe around power level 100 (on Frieza's scouter power level scale, which is maybe the most convenient to use here, so I'll use it even though Gero most certainly didn't) at the age of 14 to around 400 at the age of 24 and then an occasion of special training unknown to Gero raises it to 8000. Even though he states that he has estimated growth for Goku's power and then added some more to beat him, he certainly still underestimated that basing it on the more reasonable growth that he witnessed during the first ten years of his observations and some occasional power-ups similar to the King Kai's training. Let's say Goku got roughly 4 times stronger in 10 years, it means 15 % growth per year. As a calculating scientist Gero would estimate that to continue, albeit with couple of big jumps here and there, and then add some to be safe. So 8000*1.15^4 would be 14 000 which of course would be insignificant compared to special occasions. Let's say he approximated 2 powerups similar to King Kai's training, which would be really generous considering his data had only one such occasion in the whole 10 years he observed Goku, and that would mean he'd approximate Goku's power level to be around 6 million on Frieza's scale, or 24 million with Kaio-Ken x4. I think this would have actually been pretty accurate hadn't Goku achieved SSJ (which brings the number up to 300 million), since it would be (I think quite reasonable) double his base level on Namek against Frieza, which was 3 million. So let's say Gero thought that if 19 and himself as 20 were to have a power level of, say, 50 million, it would be easy for them to kill everyone. He of course also had 17 and 18 that would have levels around 400 million which he considered an overkill, and decided not to use them because of the risks involved. The point here is that there is no basis for Gero to assume that Goku could keep up the pace that that he progressed at when dead. So even though Gero says that he has calculated how strong Goku could possibly be, he didn't actually use any ridiculous number like a multiplier of 20 per year. That was of course mistake on his part. And Yamcha most certainly was not stronger than Frieza as he got totally overwhelmed by 20. So I call this video bulls*it and say that for example Totally Not Mark makes way better estimations in his Power Level Series from couple of years back. Power scaling in DB is ridiculous, but probably not nearly as ridiculous as Carthu here claims. Edit: Took into consideration the Kaio-Ken. That didn't change much in the end.
Don’t forget about filler Yamcha’s power. ;) Man was able to clap Olibu, the same Olibu who was rivaling weighted Pikkon who oneshot Cell. And Olibu was training in the otherworld more, so ... Filler Yamcha > Olibu (Kid Buu Saga) >=< Weighted Pikkon >= Olibu > Super Perfect Cell :0
The androids didn't think Yamaha was to the level of Goku if he trained for four years, Gero just said Yamcha was well above a normal human and he assumed it must be Goku
That doesn’t make sense...if it was merely a “stronger than normal” human, they would have guessed Roshi, Krillin, Tien, or even Yamcha himself before assuming it was Goku.
Nothing in this video proves anything lmao, just numbers pulled put of ass and nonsense calculations based on these fake numbers. They just guessed it would be Goku since it was a strong power level, but then confirmed that it was Yamcha. Yamcha wasn’t even powered up so this video makes zero sense. Everyone was stronger than Gero had anticipated not only due to Namek, but because everyone was training extra hard due to being warned about the Androids. It’s debatable if these first androids themselves were on Freeza level lol.
@@grydon6422 All of his calculations were based on lowballed assumptions though. If you are saying these calculations are incorrect burden of proof falls on you to disprove them. Not going to say I've ever tried to scale 19 or 20, but I've never seen any proof for them being weaker than frieza. Interested to hear your point though
Thanks for bringing light to this, because I've believed this to be the case since it's release in my childhood. It only makes sense that they get as strong of not stronger than their previous threat
Z-Fighters seem to have this weird unique ability to always be a step behind the Saiyans even though it doesn't make sense if we try to think hard about it. But from a narrative perspective, the Z-Fighters need to always catch up. Roshi's explanation in the revival of f arc seems to teach us that just simply watching tough battles helps you improve.
Firstly, the intro looks godly! Glad I saw it in its 'complete' form :P. Secondly, I am glad you 'stood up' for the humans. Everyone always thinking they are absolute trash xD. Even though I am not into scaling (in terms of numbers), I really liked your point about narrative. Have read those manga pages so many times and I hadnt noticed the things you mentioned! Excellent video bro, hope you are doing well :)
Bart Snibsnom this video is retarded. he said when Yamcha got one shotted by Gero, he was 2x as strong as Frieza. Wouldn’t that mean Vegeta was like 10x stronger than Frieza when Frieza came to Earth? lmao does this idiot not know power scaling makes no sense in DB and you can’t judge power levels by using multipliers and numbers.
nicholascooney knock that shit off. Tien was never and will never be stronger than Super Perfect Cell. He can’t beat ANYBODY. Super Perfect Cell would absolutely demolish any Tien from any timeline, series, and arc. If Buu Saga Tien is stronger than SP Cell, then that would mean at the time of the Cell Saga which was like 10 years before the Buu Saga, someone like Vegeta would’ve been as strong as Cell. Super Saiyan 2 Goku was slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 CELL GAMES Gohan. So by your logic, Tien would be close to Goku in power at that same exact time during the Buu Saga 😂😂😂 this is hilarious.
Are you really this upset that other characters can be strong in the series? You really need to debate me in Discord bro you’re too salty and stupid to keep going on like this
Gooldblooded BO3 I don’t believe this video makes that claim. , and in the anime Pikkon one shots Perfect Cell. Yamcha easily deflects the same Olibu who fought pretty evenly but lost to weighted Pikkon. Tien is always going to be stronger than Yamcha, so if Yamcha is arguably on that level then so is Tien. But that’s JUST THE ANIME!!! As for Tien, he has to be at least relative enough to base saiyans that he can compete with Cell Jr’s. Even though the Cell Jr’s dominated the Z warriors, Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien all survived and took multiple hits from characters who were stronger than Semi Perfect Cell. In the anime they actually get hits back!!! If you don’t count the anime then that’s fine, but the point of this video was that Yamcha surpassed Freeza, and more importantly base Goku is stronger than Freeza. Also please don’t comment back saying I used filler....... I made it clear I referenced the anime......... but even in the manga, Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha all survive the encounter with the Cell Jr’s, and are thus at least base saiyan tier.
Thank you. I've been saying this for years, but no one believed me. So very frustrating, the evidence is plain as day. I did catch something new from this video though. Krillin said he was going off to train by himself with Master Roshi. And for Krillin to have gained that much power in this 3 years, Master Roshi would have had to power up similarily to Krillin, or the sparring between them would have been useless. Which means it's not such a stretch to believe Roshi from DBSuper when he said he secretly trained all those years when no one was looking(I'm paraphrasing of course), and that's why he was powerful enough to 1: "Fight" against SSBlue Goku, and 2: Do as well as he did in the tournament of power. He did better than Krillin in the tournament too, and considering how weak Krillin became without training, had Roshi continued his secret training while Krillin didn't, Roshi would have been much more powerful than Krillin in the tournament of power. Just my two cents from my own Head-Canon.
I have always knew that the z fighters were strong. Even when the dbs battle of gods came out and we were introduced to super saiyan god. I sat thinking bruh why is every one so shocked and amazed by beerus. Yamcha sitting over there could Hakai the earth if he felt like it.
I know this is an old video, but... Gero spied on Goku for 9 years (from the fight with Tenshinhan to the fight with Vegeta), and Goku cumulatively got about 40x stronger in 9 years. Gero, a math guy, is likely to average that out, figure that roughly 5x a year is Goku's average strength increase, and go "5^4 = 625, 625 x 8,000 = 5,000,000." If Gero's estimate of Goku's power now is 5 million rather than, um, 1.2 billion, Yamcha can still fit the bill while being significantly weaker than full power Freeza. (Though still way out of the Ginyu tier!)
Gero already knew about the kaioken power level, so the max power he knew of goku would be 32.000 not only 8.000, so comparing from the tien fight to the saiyan saga, he became 160x stronger over 9 years (200 to 32.000), so around 17.8x over a year (which is similar to the 20x that he used in the video) 17.8^4 x 32.000 = 3.212.402.739 (kaioken x 4) 3.212.402.739 ÷ 4 = 803.100.685 (base)
Geez, someone really needs to do an ACTUALLY definitive DBZ power scale someday. The amount of downplays we've done with our favourite characters is insane. And I definitely won't be the one to do the power scale, since I'm godawful with power scaling.
Glad to see more videos adding more power to the humans! Honestly, I am a little tired of seeing these over-powered Saiyanas and their cross-bred children being born with power instantly. I tell my friends in real life that Yamcha at the end of the Buu Saga is as strong, if not stronger than Perfect Cell. Yamcha was done horribly in Super. Power shouldn't just define fighters, because characters such as Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien are skilled. They are versatile in martial arts, not just random powers.
Oh really? Then if Yamaha was stronger than perfect cell the hell didnt they took him as well to babidis ship Huh? Dabura was stronger than perfect cell but not súper perfect....You are saying in other Words hey guys Yamaha is as strong as ssj2 Gohan in the buu saga .. See how it makes no sense? Dude accept it the humans even in the buu saga arent even close to the hundreds of millions because as i said by your lógic if Krilin is stronger than yamcha again Krilin would have killed dabura
Critical-RAGE Yamcha vs Krillin Rules: Max Power, Composite characters (anime, manga, guides, games), ignoring Toriyama interview, and Krillin has killed Puar Edit: to be fair Yamcha smashed 18 so Krillin is also pissed!
Let's be real here. Tien should be the strongest human on Earth rn. During DBZ everytime we saw Tien he was either training or fighting alongside the z-fighters. We pretty much get the impression that the man was always training like Piccolo yet a Krillin that was bleeding from normal bullets fought on par with base Gohan (which is still pretty strong.) And was still made to look stronger.
Thank you for making this video. This one is a hard pill to swallow due to the fact that the Z fighters no longer bring impressive destructive feats to the table that the Saiyans and others do on a daily basis.
I’d like to point out that’s not how power gains works. The more you do something, the easier it becomes and the lesser the gains are. Power gains are proportional, not exponential.
Finally someone says that you can't just continue training in the same place and do the same things and expect aways the same gain, the more you train the easier it becomes so you can't just multiple because it's not right
Yeah but this is DragonBall. Vegeta trained for one year in the room of spirit and time and came out with waaaaaaaaay more gains (to his base power) than he did in the 3 years before the androids
@@tomithy_lo you gotta look at it like this in those 3 years of training they were probably just increasing their base form powerlevel but in the hyperbolic time chamber they set their mind to achieve a higher level of super saiyan
@@trentdavis404 that is definitely true, but even after this point characters get significantly stronger from shorter and shorter training periods. In the Buu saga Gohan spends a few days training on the planet of the Kais and was at least physically stronger than Goku in base. It just makes more sense that the stronger you are the harder you can train? Or at least that the gains are exponential.
I still problems in your theory, one: The androids really didn't have no idea of the rate of which Goku was getting stronger, sure they calculated with wherever numbers they did but never into account other factors, case and point the gravity training during his trip to Namek which completely made his power level skyrocketed and it also seems they don't know about saiyan biology which is a huge problem because of the zenkai boost as well as the ability to go super saiyan, gero really had no way of predicting goku rate of power. So i don't think it'll be accurate to use this to explain why the humans are stronger than frieza because goku at that point was league above everyone else and the ONLY reason that they thought that Yamcha was Goku was because by their calculations Goku should've been the only person at that level of power however that does not mean he was stronger than frieza, there's no concret evidence to say that yamcha, krillin, or tien(to a degree) have surpassed frieza. The only ones who surpassed frieza up to that point besides the three super saiyans are piccolo for obvious reasons and gohan who trained with goku and piccolo for three years and also fought final form frieza and was able to hold him off. At this point in the series, i don't neither of the three humans surpassing frieza.
I agree about the numbers and androids' estimates about training being misleading. However, the narrative explanation does support the claim to an extent. Given what Krillin and Gohan experienced on Namek (and what Vegeta and everyone saw with Mecha Frieza), they wouldn't have faced off with the androids unless they were sure to contribute. Maybe not be stronger than Mecha Frieza, but definitely not be as weak as a Yajirobe versus Vegeta.
SAIYAN SAGA: TIEN Though they are both fairly close in power the Daizenshuu does say Tien had a slightly higher power-level when they fought Nappa than Krillin. However this can be up for speculation because all the Z-fighters were supressing their true power-levels, so their full power is unknown. What is known are their feats during battle against Nappa. Tien is the only fighter to engage Nappa, for a substantial period of time, alone, and with one hand. Though he is getting beaten, he is still fighting to the point Nappa says he's a "tough bastard". Krillin however mostly fights Nappa in a duo with Piccolo, therefore appearing stronger than what he actually is. Tien is brutalized far more than Krillin and takes more damage, yet stays in the fight until he kills himself. Krillin takes some damage but is later knocked out by the shockwave of Nappa's blast, which is not as impressive as Tien durability. Both Tien & Krillin nearly kill Nappa in their own ways. Krillin's attempt is impressive but it mostly plays on Nappa's stupidity and lack of knowledge of the Destructo-Disc, once Nappa realised how it worked, it posed no threat to him and was easily avoidable. Tien however nearly kills Nappa with raw power, Nappa is able to avoid it but does suggest afterward that it would've killed him had he not seen it coming, and even Vegeta is in shock of how much power Tien had. So even though Krillin's attempt was good, it was more him trying to outwit Nappa, while Tien was just going to annihilate him with sheer power, which I find more impressive. NAMEK/FRIEZA SAGA: KRILLIN: Once Krillin & Gohan get their potential unlocked on Namek, its suggested their power-level is about the same as Vegeta's was in the Saiyan Saga when he was on Earth (give or take) So if that is in anyway accurate that puts Krillin far above Tien at that time. Unless you count filler which in that case Tien is far stronger than Krilliin because he fights two members of the Ginyu-Force simultaneously and defeats them both on King Kai's planet, but in actual canon Krillin is stronger. ANDROID/CELL SAGA: TIEN After the three year preparation for the Androids it's unknown who's stronger, but I believe the story indicates Tien is stronger. When Yamcha is punched through the chest by Android 20 the first three people on the scene are Goku, Piccolo, and Tien. They are also the three that fly off to fight the Androids in the desert, which could mean nothing, but to me suggests those are the three strongest amongst that group (bar Vegeta & Trunks of course) But undoubtable the greatest feat Tien has is his performance against Semi-Perfect Cell. Krillin's punches didn't even make Semi-Perfect Cell flinch, he just stood there and smiled. So the fact Tien could forcible hold Cell down and smash him into the ground over and over like that is not only the best thing Tien has ever done, its one of the impressive moments in DBZ. So in that moment Tien is far above Krillin. BUU SAGA: TIEN Seven years after Cell, Krillin has retired, its unknown if he's stronger or weaker than he was in the Cell saga, most likely Krillin has regressed rather than increased in strength. Tien however has gone into isolation, during that time, to do nothing but train. So its safe to assume Tien has increased in power, while krillin has probably decreased. Krillin is able to charge Super-Buu and stall for about 5 seconds, which is ultimately futile, but it is something. Tien on the other hand is able to deflect Buu-Tanks' blast saving Gohan, which is actually very impressive considering Buu-Tanks is stronger than both Ultimate Gohan & SSj3 Goku. So I believe Tien is stronger during this period. All in all I believe Tien is stronger than Krillin, despite popular opinion. In pure martial arts he was able to defeat Goku in a competition, and when it comes to power levels and feats 90% of the time his are better than krillins. Anything past DBZ I don't care about because DBS is trash.
Great video and a necessary one. People underestimate the humans way too much. They've always surpassed the previous big bad. They surpassed Raditz in the saiyan saga, They surpassed Vegita(Saiyan Saga) in Frieza saga. It makes sense that they would surpass Frieza next. One thing to add is that they might have tapped into some form of unknown multiplier of their own based on kaioken. My reference to this would be a statement made by Tien when he was in king kais planet where he says that in order to surpass goku he will develope techniques of his own. And a second reference would be that he does go into a powered up aura state from time to time. That would make the jump in strength a lot more believable than just having their base forms be a lot stronger than Frieza.
It makes sense, but the scaling for Humans is lesser than Saiyans or Namekians so they would be still a good amount weaker than Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Suppressed Piccolo, and Gohan. Similarly to the gaps in strength during the Saiyan Saga. With Goku being 4 to 5 times stronger than the Humans. Also Trunks would then be a great deal weaker than Goku and Vegeta as a SSJ because he only had about a year to train rather than 3. But it’s nice to see the humans get the respect they deserve. Also this makes sense as to how Krillin and Tenshinhan were of some worth in the ToP because they are far beyond the power of Freeza who was able to subjugate a Universe with his power alone.
Whatever his actual power level actually is/was, he's still a planet killer if he wants to and could take on 95% percent of the Frieza Force in one on one combat. Not to mention he's stronger than 99% of the Saiyans that have ever lived. The only ones stronger than him are the ones he's friends with. Plus Broly.
*Started out as a wolf in the streets, Now I’m rakin bulma in the sheets; don’t step to me if ya don’t know the way of the wolf cause that’s my flow, ITS THE GREAT YAMCHA* *Dont step on my streets if ya can’t take a beat, my fist so fast I cross up the heat; don’t step on my toes cause* ya don’t know me~ *Hitodama, won’t stop my momma; you’ll take these balls if ya can’t block baka*
Let's not forget who's responsible: it's between Toriyama himself, Toyotaro, DBS teams, and the toxic elements of DB fan base. Toriyama always used Yamcha as the guy who gets beat up to show how strong an enemy is. Then despite beating that Saibaman, it did that kamikaze move. It was a surprise move that could have killed the others but everyone calls him weak for it. But then Toriyama made Yamcha a cheater so Bulma get with Vegeta to have Trunks. But he later retcons that when he says Yamcha is still afraid of women. Even Yamcha's Japanese VA didn't like that direction. So basically Yamcha is a victim of character Assassination. Toyotaro promised to do more for Yamcha but just made that baseball episode where it was just appealing to those memes. Plus let's not forget some NOT ALL of the fan base. They made those memes and mock the character for all his faults. At first it was funny but it's no longer funny and it has become more mean spirited. I mean there are fanfics making Yamcha into a rapist. Yes Yamcha has his faults and made mistakes. But how things have been written for him, and treatment by some fans, I don't think he deserved all of it. What we need is more fan works like DBZ Elsewhere (that Reborn crap does not count. Not Real Yamcha not real redemption) where it goes against Toriyama and fan expectations..
Sorry about my rant but in these discussions about the character these points are not always brought up. So offering the counterpoint. I am more a Gohan and Piccolo fan but seems Yamcha got the " crap end the stick" lately...
Too be honest I have a really hard time believing any of the humans ever got to frieza level even as far as we are in Super now. Definitely in the hundreds of thousands but I doubt even a million but I suppose a million tops could be believable
Exactly, a weaker fighter can still injure a powerful one. Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin with Piccolo the strongest being at 1,200,000. Were still able to inflict damage on a 50% - 60,000,000 Frieza. Plus weaker characters are able to gather their ki and concentrate it into a single powerful attack. Combine it with their spirit energy (life force) and they can multiply the attack power even further. Like Tiens Neo-Tri Beam.
@@ItsDeebs only weird thing if you're saying 1 million tops then the Shin Kikoho multiplier must be on the 3000x range, in that regard tien could kill namek freeza.
Only if Frieza was not in his final form could he win. The super spirit bomb couldn't kill him and that packed a bigger punch than anything Tien could hope to produce. I love the B team characters too. But they never reach that power. When Beerus first meets Goku looking at his base form he says there's no way you could've defeated Frieza at your level.
@@ItsDeebs sorry but tien held back semi p cell and he was probably more than a 1000x stronger so Shin Kikoho>spirit bomb and even if you put tien below 1 mil power level which i think he has about 3 mil on cell saga
Cell took no damage at all. Not even a scratch or dirt/dust stain. Vegeta is at about 3.5 - 4 million when he begins his 300 times gravity training. Struggling at first. Yamcha almost dies and never surpasses it. Tien I believe after his training, would've been able to stand and move around at 350 times gravity. I would put him around 8 million which is still very powerful. When they charge up attacks, early in the series it at the most got a 3.5 times increase and lets say channeling large amounts of spirit force can give it another 3.5 or 4 to be generous. Now that makes an attack around 56 - 60 million. Which is excellent and would definitely knock back an unexpecting stonger warrior.
I think he lost his drive to train due to all the humiliating loses he has received. Plus the traumas being killed by a Saibaman and nearly killed by Android 20...
No matter how much you do the math, I will never believe prime Android saga Krillin could beat 100% final form frieza, let alone mecha frieza. It shouldn't be possible for a human to get that strong, they don't even have multiplier transformations like the saiyans. Nor do they have the awesome genetics of Namekians. (Being able to stretch limbs, grow huge, regeneration, healing arts, telepathy, fusion, super hearing, sharp nails, dragon ball creation, ect) The average Namekian power level at birth is probably slightly higher than humans too because they know what energy is, your average human does not.
People forget, gero didn’t see goku vs trunks, but he definitely knew it happened, since he knew of frieza vs trunks, and gained both king colds and friezas cells for cell from that fight.
Yamcha never surpassed Frieza, unless you count that filler in the Buu arc when he was fighting Olibu in Other World. I don't personally count it because its not canon. Tien and Krillin didnt really surpass Frieza in overall power either until the Buu saga but they have certain techniques and strategies that could give them the win. Kikoho for Tien, Kienzan for Krillin in combination with the Solar flare, etc.
One thing I’m curious about. This may count as retconning, but in Battle Of Gods, Berrus comments that base Goku couldn’t possibly defeat Frieza. So, I was under the assumption that Goku’s base form by Battle Of Gods was at 100 million or less, and that his previous powers levels before that would naturally be less than that. Consider that Beerus is a god, and that as such, I’m unsure if suppressing one’s power would have any affect on his ability to sense your power.
There are so many explanation for that A: Beerus expected Frieza to be much stronger then he was(Which is likely given Frieza's potential he might have expected Frieza to have Trained) B: Goku was suppressed C: Beerus was so much stronger then both Goku & Frieza that he couldn't tell the different's between ants
I already knew that Yamcha was way stronger than even mecha frezia at this point, that's why I thought it was weird when people always criticized him, which every arc after cell up till super he got way weaker, but even in super he is really strong.
Nice video, but those calcs are awfully off. Gero didn't expect Goku to make gains anywhere near what he made at Kaio because of age: Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P8.6-7 Goku: “I see…But did you spy on the battle on Planet Namek too?” No.20: “There was no need. By the battle with Vegeta and co., we had already completely grasped your power and techniques. We calculated that no matter how much you improved afterwards, considering your age, you wouldn’t have any increases as enormous as you had before…” This isn't supported by the story either. It's established that earthbound training isn't very effective for power growth and that they can only hone their skills in such ambient: Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P13.1 Context: after training under God God: “You have all surpassed me now. There is nothing more I or Mr. Popo can teach you. Return to the lower world and refine your skills until the final confrontation.” The Z Fighters training in earth for the 3 years after training at Kaio's is akin to training with 50kg dumbbells after training with 250kg; it's not going to be very effective. It's implied not even Goku made considerable gains in this time period, given how he's still comparable to Trunks after training. Sure, Tenshinhan is surprised by his power, but keep in mind Goku 3 years ago wasn't at his full power. Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3 Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…” I wouldn't count their confidence as much either. Tenshinhan is overprotective with Chaozu (He also asked him to stay behind in the Saiyan Arc) and Kuririn, the strongest of the earthlings, established on his way to the battlefield that he's not confident because "Not all of us are Super Saiyans". Tenshinhan admited before that he just wants to see what he can do in fight, and when it was actually time to fight, he admited he was relieved that Vegeta and Piccolo were so strong and implied only Super Saiyans could defeat Freeza. Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5 Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…” Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4 Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…” Honestly, Yamcha would be lucky to reach Saiyan Saga Goku. He never learned Kaio-Ken even though he trained about as much as Goku and in better conditions, which indicates his body simply isn't build to support so much power. The strongest human, Kuririn, acknowledged that not in a million years he could reach the level of any Ginyu Tokusentai member (Sans Guldo). Namek Freeza could rip even Gero a new one, let alone Yamcha. Hope you see this and we can debate about this on Discord or anywhere.
I don't believe it or at least I don't want to, but I understand, and my mind is blown by what I'm hearing, but again I understand. Long time ago after seeing Krillin fight 1st form Cell in filler and seeing Tien hold back a 2nd form Cell, I did think that Krillin and Tein at least had to be at least around full powered Frieza. This was before I remembered that People can increase their power levels with certain energy attacks, but before I watch this video, I did think that the human characters had gotten above the million or into the multiple million range and with certain attacks could increase their power more. But now because of this video and DragonBallDave363 comment I'm rethinking everything I knew cause I thought that a power level in the billion range didn't happened until android 16 or at least around 2nd form Cell. So now I'm questioning everything I ever knew so I'm a little steamed right now. Info was very compiling, so kudos
The title made an interesting point, but i wasn't convinced in the end. I feel you might be right but the proofs are not that convincing. The best one was thi kikoho scene, imo, but there are a few hiccups here and there so... "just maybe" XD
@@MattRuthless not even 16 could make semi perfect cell flinch with his punch at full power, but tien's tri beam could, unless you say to me that tien's tri beam somehow multiplied his power level by millions of times, it's impossible for him to be below frieza and SS1 goku from namek, and the narrative suports this by literally everyone saying that only the ones that can help would show up to the fight with the androids, knowing that there would be guys far beyond frieza's level.
They were being toyed with, they got their asses handled. When Gohan went for the rescue apart from Vegeta and Piccocolo all of them, included Goku, needed Senzu beans!
@@princelamar1735 He'd be as effective as Picollo. this "z warriors supesses frieza" argument is bullshit! They'd all be in the level of first time supersayan if it was possible, and when picollo becomes stronger than a supersyan they make a big deal about it, so theyd have made a big deal about the other Z warriors being stronger than frieza if it was a thing! Toriama would have make sure that this was stated, thats how he progress the story, with comparisons and exposition! WERE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ANIME WITH THE HEAVIEST EXPOSITION DUMPS EVER AND YOU REALLY THINK THAT IF THIS WAS TRUE HED HAVE LEFT THIS FACT FOR OUR IMAGINATION?
I refuse to believe that Yamaha is stronger than Frieza, nothing in this video told me anything about Yamcha that would make me think he increased in strength so drastically that he suddenly became stronger than Frieza
I love how all you said was I don’t believe Yamcha is stronger than freeza so he isn’t that’s an argument of incredulity and a burden of proof fallacy all wrapped into one explain why
Besides multipliers and statements about the size of an object they can blow up (cell saying he could blow up the solar system, Goku VS beerus would destroy the universe) there isn't ever any direct confirmation. That's literally the reason power scaling exists
Smart analysis. Since Tien, Chiaotzu, and Yamcha trained with King Kai, do you reckon they should've learned Kaio-ken or the Spirit Bomb? You know, Tien's an amazing martial artist. He trains every day and has come up with some cool moves like the Solar Flare, Multi-Form, and Flight. I reckon he should be stronger than most humans. There's this filler episode in Dragon Ball Z where Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu are fighting the Ginyu Force.
Couple points here. Goku was being studied since he destroyed the RRA so the gains he made in the year after Raditz arriving are pretty meaningless. The androids only say that Yamcha could have been Goku as the energy reading was higher than thought to be humanly possible, keep in mind that Gero knew Goku was an alien by then so it simply means Yamcha>any Saiyan that arrived on earth before they stopped their research on Goku (so basically Vegeta). Even if we put Yamcha above an Oozaru Vegeta that's still only 180k. Yamcha's 1 year training gave him around a 8-10x boost which would put him around 14,000,000 max (if we use the Daizenshuu numbers). The fact they accounted for Goku growing stronger at a high rate doesn't straight away put Yamcha that high as he doesn't need to be that high for the andorids to think he was Goku. The fact that Freeza is also still used as a measuring stick and Tien straight up says Trunks, who beat Freeza was even beat by 17 & 18 shows that a suppressed Mecha Freeza (because we never see Freeza power up and as we see on Namek there is a process for him powering up that takes a bit of time) is still impressive to Tien, unless we're to believe he was going by his reputation alone. Krillin even uses him as a measuring stick for Cell but then he had seen 100% Freeza. The only picture we get of Goku's training in the manga is of him as a SSJ fighting both Piccolo and Gohan. It's also pretty obvious Toriyama, in traditional Toriyama style, just forgot that Tien was present for Goku's SSJ transformation vs Trunks as he acts like he's never seen him as a SSJ so that can't really be used to scale either. Lastly, not fact but more of an observation. Standing a chance doesn't necessarily mean being anywhere close to their power. Krillin mentions him having a long face was because they're not all SSJ's. He was still apprehensive about fighting a being supposedly stronger than Freeza even with everyone there. The humans are, at best, around 25% of Freeza (Goku's 10x KK on Namek) level and that's if we're very generous. The rule of them surpassing the previous main villain isn't true in every case. Tien was above a weighted Goku in the 23rd BD who was considered equal to his KP arc self who was marginally stronger than KP. Everyone else human wise was below this. Everyone when Raditz arrives was below Piccolo from the 23rd TB. Although nobody actually fought in the manga, everyone, as far as we know in the Namek arc was still below Vegeta from the Saiyan arc. Also, as we know Krillin basically conceded to losing to the base Saiyans in the Buu arc TB and we know that Goku wasn't considered equal to or above Cell arc SSJ2 Gohan until he went SSJ2 which by default puts the base Saiyans waaaay below Cell at his strongest. The humans aren't fodder by any means, they're just not anywhere near even the weakest version of a SSJ that was hyped up to be the strongest fighter in the universe for almost 2 arcs.
The humans have always had faster growth rates than the aliens. Saiyans, Namekians etc. Goku training with Kami compared to the humans, Yajirobe included. Goku training for months with King Kai, Vegeta getting Zenkai boosts, Krillin and Gohan getting their potential unlocked.....all would have or have gotten slapped by the Ginyu Force, yet the humans with a few days of training passing them
And this is ignoring a line from the subbed version of the DBZ Anime where Mecha Frieza states his supernova attack is 10x stronger than the one on Namek yet Trunks caught that bitch with ease. 1.2 billion actually makes perfect sense for the humans if they were aiming to surpass Mecha Frieza.
I disagree with the numbers you use, both because you can’t expect Goku ‘s solo training to have equivalent results to when he trains under an experienced master and is actively acquiring new skills and techniques. The idea of someone becoming 20 times stronger from a year of training, four years straight, also seems odd both because it doesn’t even resemble reality, isn’t consistently mirrored elsewhere in the series, and doesn’t account for the well -known diminishing returns of working out. I also feel that the human Z warriors wouldn’t gain experience and results at the same rate as Goku. With that said, I do agree that the android saga is (roughly) where the humans surpass Frieza. I just doubt that they had already surpassed him by so much.
That's why I hate beerus' line about how goku VS freeza must have been a hard fight. It's ridiculous because goku should be ridiculously stronger than even cell at that point, even in base form
I personally like to say he got around 40× stronger on King Kai's planet and 12× stronger during each of the following 3 years putting Yamacha at around 1,191,360,000
It is not stronger, it is impossible to be stronger When he returned from Yardat, his base was not much stronger than it had been in Namek Frieza was 40 times stronger than Goku's base So you're saying they evolved 40-120 times If at all even Yamacha is stronger than Frieza!!! Base vegeta should be stronger than ssj namek three years ago Because Vegeta's base is stronger than Goku's base, Goku's base is stronger than Gohan, whose role is stronger than Krillin, and Tenchihan, who is stronger than Yamacha. So there is a big difference, even if their base is really that strong Piccolo is the power of the Saiyan base I see no justification for using ssj, just base sayan they will overcome them Remember that once Vegeta became stronger, 33% became confident of his ability to defeat him if he were a little stronger than Goku Namek. 33% or even less would be confident of defeating the Android in the base. I want to mention something else You do not have to be much stronger than your opponent to defeat him easily A mere 5% would be like fighting Zarbon, a close, even fight. 10% is a medium gap with a little bit of struggle like Doudria and Vegeta. 33% is a huge gap like Kyo and Vegeta, a gap that enables him to defeat him with one hit. This is an illogical increase in force Goku increased the period of peace in the Piccolo arc to the Raditz arc in five years of peace The rate of 4% from 400 to 408 for Saiyans does not increase much during the period of peace While Tenchihan increased his strength from 240 to 250 Krillin from 200 to 206 While Yamacha's strength decreased from 180 to 177 Piccolo 390 to 408 So in the Yarat period he did not earn much Let's talk about intensive training. Even intensive training with Kami over three years made his base only 60 percent stronger, and this with a trainer without whom he would make smaller gains. If you were to tell me about Krillin and Yamacha Goku's gains in Saiyan Saga or in a spaceship Goku used a gravity device trained by Kai to obtain his gains While both Krillin and Yamacha were trained by Master Popo as well As for Piccolo's percentage, it was at the level of SSJ because he destroyed the androids that were able to harm SSJ, Goku and Vegeta. As I said a simple gap is all it takes to finish off your opponent Android 19 was able to hurt Vegeta's lip, which shows that the SSJ-level Android was Vegeta's equivalent like Zarbon and Doudria on Namek. If you say that he was destroyed with just one hit, use the Ping Bang Strike, which has doubled his strength by 25% above his level. This looks like the Masenbo that hit Raditz The other proof is that it is impossible to be a base level Saiyan and then go to the SSJ level just by merging The fusion of Kami and Piccolo is only doubled because they are both Namekians, which are one Namekian whose power is separated into two parts, which is different. Piccolo has reached SSJ, which confirms that they did not gain much Another piece of evidence is that Krillin compared SSJ's strength to Piccolo in the manga. There was a picture of Piccolo training as SSJ. Add that he knows Goku's power changes ssj So Piccolo got a huge boost in strength because he got a strong fighting partner I want you to add that Gohan was disrupting them because he has ki strength that is three times weaker than Goku, which did not increase Goku much. Even in terms of yards, because he was in a period of peace, all he got was less than 4 percent, and he focused on techniques and mastering SSJ instead of increasing his strength. Add that 20 was stronger than 19 in the beginning 19 then received a huge power boost While 20 was weaker than 19, but not much after absorbing energy. 20 absorbed a lot of energy from Vegeta, Yamacha's energy, and Piccolo's energy I want to talk about boosting a spacecraft, which raised the gravity level continuously from 10 to 100, while Vegeta raised the gravity device to 300, then moved to 400. These are crazy payments due to the unlocking of the capabilities of Gohan and the Zenkai that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan obtained. This Zenkai decreased after Namek, according to what Zenkai says, so it will not become the strongest massive form. Add that even a gap between enemies was not as strong as Frieza's forms Where 18 was a gap like Vegeta and Kyo when he arrived on Namek, 17 was stronger than him, a gap larger than the gap between Dodria and Vegeta. While 16 and 17 represented 16 gaps like Kyo and Vegeta Cell was the same as the power of 16, then he added the power of 17 to it. So the gap was 75 percent So, after training in the Spirit and Time Room, Trunks and Vegeta were only four times stronger in base, but they focused on surpassing SSJ and obtained grade 2 and 3, which doubled their base more. Also I want to add something Trunks' strength when he arrived was weaker than Goku's, which apparently caused him to defeat Frieza easily First, Frieza did not reach his full power because Gohan said that Frieza's name had greater power than that While King Cold has a strength slightly stronger than half of Frieza's strength, which is a huge gap Add that Frieza was weaker than the Namek Frieza because he decided to bring his father with him The gap between his name and Frieza was a good gap (25% higher than Doudria and Vegeta's 10%). Goku just wanted to break Frieza's arrogance so he didn't kill him Add that you can see a slight power difference between Goku and Gohan Where SSJ Gohan was slightly stronger than SSJ Goku. After seven years, Goku hasn't even gotten much stronger Because vegeta compare ssj 2 gohan ssj2 goku If he got a big boost, it wouldn't be a comparison. Rather, he might compare it to SSJ 1 Goku and SSJ 2 Gohan, who was stronger than he was in the Tenshikai Budakai arc. Add that Goku obtained Zenkai, perhaps after the Battle of Cell
Two problems, Android 17 said he used half his power to fight SSJ Future Gohan , who flat out says is weaker than his dad before he died and using Gokus growth rate in the Saiyan arc ( that's inconsistent in the first place ) and trying to apply it to Yamcha who is an entirely separate character is a little bit of a stretch.
Power levels have always been linear blind there is no evidence of them ever being exponential even in early levels and in fact the opposite of them being linear even in that stupid guide which placed Goku at a 10 say that Goku with a ten times increase is at 100 so they are linear
2 things I think you should also have mentioned are; 1) Goku says Trunks was holding back when they spar, so both of them were suppressed. 2) Gohan directly states that Mecha Freeza is weaker than Freeza on Namek. While I do believe he was just referring to Mecha Freeza before he powers up, it still stands that Mecha Freeza wasn’t as strong as 100% Freeza on Namek. He didn’t get a chance to power up and really increase. Gohan directly told Yamcha that Freeza can get a lot stronger. They don’t actually change the point, so it’s not biggie! Other than that this is my favorite video on your channel!
How the humans would have been relevant (already know about Krillin in Super) Humans have similar transformations that Frieza & even Piccolo have Saiyan God transformation (probably won’t happen) Kaio-Ken (which should have been learn including Piccolo) Yardat techniques Obtain God Ki Ultra Instinct Training Method: Gravity Training Supreme Kai (Unlock Ultimate potential) God Ki training Etc Seriously DB humans have many opportunities of getting stronger but too much focus on the Saiyans in general also the fact people think that db fighter get weak which equal to weak powerlevel if that the case then Frieza who born strong should be weak for not training (until he learn lesson there will always be stronger in the Universe)
Using basic power scaling Yamacha is between 180,000 and 5,120,000,000. This is using his Saiyan Saga counterpart and saying he got around 120× stronger to using your training boost to Kioken×4 Goku in the Saiyan Saga
Everything he said was wrong Firstly, Number 20 was stronger than Base, in reality he was stronger than Goku Kaioken 20 When Goku used his power almost completely. 20 said that 19 is stronger than him and that he is at such a level of strength that he can keep up with him (not defeat him). In order to keep up with someone you must be close to his level. It is stronger and easier than Kayoken 20. Piccolo was not Goku's base power. When he was beaten from 19. He was the first to go to defend him. It was level 19 at the time. As for Goku's base, it was not the level of Frieza or even Vegeta. Vegeta has become twice as powerful as he was on Namek. Goku and Vegeta each had 5 million. It is clear that Future Gohan has not gained much power in more than ten years, neither did Trunks nor even Goku. In fact, Beerus said that Frieza is stronger than Goku's base when he met him the first time. It is impossible for humans to be stronger than Frieza
With all due respect, and in all honesty, Carthu, what you stated is not your opinion, it is the absolute 100% truth. The answer is in the manga and the anime. But so many fans ignore the small details, they missed out on the evidence in the story narrative. And in doing so completely lowball all the earthling Z fighters. From the bottom of my heart I just wanna say thank you, because this is something I’ve been for years. Your video and your channel is the only one credible evidence and defense for the Earthling Z fighters. This is the only video, that tells the truth. All the other UA-camrs just lowball them and Collett a day. The earthling Z fighters specifically Tienshinhan Yamcha and Krillin, our universal when it comes to power scaling & power level. They are not on the same level as the Saiyans, but they are also OP.
I find it hard to believe that base goku is relative to piccolo. Piccolo must be stronger than him in my opinion. Also, how strong is dbs krillin? Can he solo dbz? Is he stronger than base Goku (I find that to be ridiculous, people really seem to underestimate base goku)? If so, can you state where it was mentioned in the series?
Everything he said was wrong Firstly, Number 20 was stronger than Base, in reality he was stronger than Goku Kaioken 20 When Goku used his power almost completely. 20 said that 19 is stronger than him and that he is at such a level of strength that he can keep up with him (not defeat him). In order to keep up with someone you must be close to his level. It is stronger and easier than Kayoken 20. Piccolo was not Goku's base power. When he was beaten from 19. He was the first to go to defend him. It was level 19 at the time. As for Goku's base, it was not the level of Frieza or even Vegeta. Vegeta has become twice as powerful as he was on Namek. Goku and Vegeta each had 5 million. It is clear that Future Gohan has not gained much power in more than ten years, neither did Trunks nor even Goku. In fact, Beerus said that Frieza is stronger than Goku's base when he met him the first time. It is impossible for humans to be stronger than Frieza
Lol remember when Goku and Krillin were rivals in power?
Nope 😂😂
nah goku was always way stronger
@@sadladd you have actually No Idea about OG Dragonball
DragonballPTK Jr. - i’ve watched it like 3 times and know way too much. goku was always stronger, even from the beginning. look to the roshi training arc where goku outdid krillin in every way, and the wmat where they fought each other and goku beat him in “1” punch. he was always stronger
Ya back when piccolo was stronger than Goku
Yamcha has always been the strongest, in the battle of
Gods movie ssj3 Goku couldn’t hit beerus, where as yamcha hits him casually
My boy yamcha is high above the gods
China Prime that’s factual nobody in super compares to yamcha
Tiara Starbrighter dude, yamcha IS strong but shaggy is the COMPLETE god...No, god not even BEGIN to describe his power!
That's our boy yamcha...also vegeta isn't just mad that goku is always 2 steps passed him....hes pissed at yamcha the most...not only cuz he hit beerus..but because yamcha wrecked bulmas asshole
@@ikeavaughan Insert joke about Wolf Fang Fist.
I think your all missing the big one,Farmer with a shotgun
Is Chiaotzu the Guldo of the Z-fighters?
This is a severely underrated comment
You don't mean the chiaodzu dog well I have one before
Chiaotzu got one of the freshest fits in all of dragon ball
my brudda
Well they both have psychic powers to freeze time or people.
People give Yamcha crap about being beat by Saibamen and 20, but they forget that both times, it was because he did not realize he was even in a fight. The Saibaman jumped on him after Yamcha thought it was dead, and had to kill itself in order to kill Yamcha. 20 took Yamcha by surprise because he had no ki and looked like an old man, and also had the power to drain chi with his hand. Something even Piccolo himself almost was killed by later.
A self distruct is not a normal attack.
Yamcha didn’t even have time to power up to try to escape from the Saibaman’s grip. In the manga, the Saibaiman self-destructs immediately after grabbing onto Yamcha.
@@Gamesackfan-bn6eg exactly self destruct multiplies the “ki” energy/ attack potency at bare minimum 10x - 100x greater.
I just wanna say thanks to you guys because you are real fans you get it. I believe there are too many blatant DBZ haters in disguise. It’s like anybody can say hey I’m a fan, when you listen to what they have to say you can obviously tell they are straight up hater of DBZ.
@@jordanglasper1064 Np bro 👊🏻
Love this, classical scaling tends to ignore the humans altogether.
Video title: When Yamcha surpasses Frieza!
*Shows thumbnail of Yamcha getting impaled by Android 20*
#SEEMSLEGIT
Android 20 is stronger than Frieza though remember 17 & 18's power was said to dwarf even Frieza's so it would stand to reason that while 19 & 20 are not on par with 17 & 18 they are at the very least stronger than Freeza.
It’s a joke relax
I mean same result would happen to namek frieza if he fought the androids
In that picture the reason Yamcha got impaled by Android 20 was because Android 20 mistakes Yamcha for a namek saga Goku.
Yamaha: yes I surpassed Frieza!
Golden Frieza: I’m about to end this man’s whole career
DBS Yamcha: give it your best shot!
I read that with frieza's voice...
@@jmm0091 Linda Young or Chris Ayres?
@@brandonking5111 dbza version propblably
Indeed.
I really do miss the Z Fighters, the story was so much more interesting when they worked as a team.
Agree.. hopely dragon ball z got remake and more action from z fighters.
Good points, and I agree. In fact if you use filler Yamcha and Krillin were even training with and competing with the other world fighters implying they were perhaps somewhat comparable to even base Goku in the Buu saga who had trouble with some of those fighters. In the Bojack movie they even make a point to portray Tien as equal or superior to post cell games future trunks in base, forcing him to go SSJ to win. So consistently the humans in DBZ have been comparable to base level Goku and Vegeta, and base Goku and Vegeta have long since surpassed Namek arc Frieza.
All filler in Kai is canon bcuz the Anime is Synonymous to DBZ The Manga. These are Akira Toriyama those were Akira Toriyama‘s words. Rest in power to him. This also means old school DBZ is not canon. This is something a lot of fans ignore.
All the humans are capable of defeating entire other animes. They’re definitely NOT fodder.
Thomas Weeden in the context of dragon ball they are
un, what anime did you even watch?
@@ztr5934 Obviously because they grew stronger overtime. Not only that , but even Vegeta and Trunks got their asses whooped by the Androids and they were super saiyans so that wouldn't make a difference.
No, they're really not. You've clearly never watched other anime
@@pizzweak580 so lemme get this straight. All might. Someone who can barely destroy an island. Can defeat yamcha. With even the lowball a planet buster.
Please tell me. What crack are you on?
Yamcha did surpass Freeza during 3 years of prep for Androids. Here is the proof!
Chapter 330- Page 9/14
Context: Freeza arrives on Earth and Z warriors feel his ki. Yamcha asks if this really how strong Freeza is.
Gohan:”This is nothing. He can increase it a lot more.”
Significance: Mecha Freeza is not as strong as 100% Freeza on Namek, and possibly not even 50% Freeza on Namek.
Chapter 330- Page 13/14
Context: Freeza and King Cold prepare to wait for Goku, and Freeza boasts about his power up from being having cyber parts.
Freeza: “ With my increased power, I could kill him by myself.”
Significance: Freeza is confident that at his full power he can defeat the SSJ Goku that beat him. Though he doesn’t sense ki so this could just be random bloating, as Trunks disproves it rather quickly.
Chapter 331- Page 8/18
Context: Trunks tells Freeza and King Cold he is here to stop them quickly.
Trunks: “ I will kill both of you instantly.”
Significance: Trunks is very confident in his ability to kill King Cold and Freeza without having to try very hard.
Chapter 331 - Page 9-18
Context: Trunks prepares to attack Freeza as a SSJ.
Trunks: “ Attacking should be with full power.”
Significance: Trunks is opting go SSJ and kill Freeza from the start. This shows that Mecha Freeza was stronger base Trunks.
Chapter 331- Page 13/18
Context: Trunks becomes SSJ and the Z warriors feel his ki.
Gohan: “ It’s the same size ki as Dad’s when he was on Namek.”
Significance: SSJ Trunks vs Mecha Freeza = SSJ Goku on Namek = 150 million.
Chapter 332- Page 4/14
Context: Freeza is killed by Trunks and everyone is blown away.
Vegeta/Gohan(?):” He actually could instantly vaporize Freeza.”
Significance: SSJ Trunks easily killed Mecha Freeza.
Chapter 332- Page 6/14
Context: King Cold acknowledges Trunks ability to beat Freeza.
King Cold: “You instantly beat my son Freeza.”
Significance: More reiterating that SSJ Trunks is way stronger than Mecha Freeza.
Chapter 334- Page 1/14
Context: Goku is explaining that Freeza passed by him in space, and questions who killed the Tyrant.
Piccolo: “ He was the one who instantly destroyed him.... and he’s a SSJ like you.”
Significance: Piccolo is also reiterating that SSJ Trunks is way stronger than Freeza.
Chapter 334- Page 3/14
Context: Trunks pulls Goku away to talk privately about why he had come here.
Trunks:” Actually you could have defeated them easily.....”
Significance: Trunks is claiming that Goku could’ve defeated Freeza, and hasn’t even seen his SSJ power yet. Though it should be noted that he could be imagining a SSJ Goku based on Future Gohan’s description and feeling base Goku’s ki. But it more than likely refers to base Goku based on Trunks uncertainty about Goku being able to go SSJ at will.
Chapter 334- Page 5/14
Context: Trunks explains his reasons for coming to meet Goku, and see if he is as strong as Future Gohan said.
Trunks:” Can you become a SSJ of your own will?”
Significance: Trunks was confident in seeing just base goku that he could defeat Freeza, but doubted his ability to defeat the androids. This implies his earlier line about Goku beating Freeza easily was actually about Base Goku.
Chapter 334- Page 7/14
Context: Z warriors react to Goku going SSJ.
Vegeta: “No wonder he could defeat Freeza.”
Significance: Vegeta believes Goku can defeat Freeza with ease as a SSJ, but doubts his base being able to do so.
Chapter 334- Page 8/14
Context: SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku compared themselves.
Goku: “ I see... it really is very similar.”
Significance: Goku notes that Trunks powered up in a similar manner to himself, suppressing the SSJ form. This gives the implication that Goku is suppressed as a SSJ since Trunks uses a suppressed SSJ. This also means Suppressed SSJ Goku and SSJ Trunks are stronger than SSJ Future Gohan.
Chapter 334- Page 13:14
Context: Trunks is comparing Goku to what he had heard from Gohan.
Trunks:” You really do live up to your reputation, and your a lot stronger than I thought.”
Significance: Future Gohan was sure Goku could’ve defeated the Future Androids, and Goku is even stronger than what he thought. Though it could also simply mean now Trunks can confide in Gohan’s confidence in Goku. This also shows that Goku is suppressed.
Chapter 334-Page 13/14
Context: After sparring with Goku, Trunks gives his conclusion.
Trunks: ”And this sword just cut through Freeza like butter.”
Goku: “Actually you had no intention of fighting me.”
Significance: Trunks used the same power against Freeza that he did against SSJ Goku’s finger. Goku says that Trunks is holding back and is capable of much more. This means SUPPRESSED SSJ Trunks = 150 million. Which is greater than SSJ Future Gohan.
Chapter 335-Page 2/14
Context: Trunks is explain how strong the androids are in relation to past enemies goku has faced.
Trunks: “They’re incredibly strong, beyond anything you have known.”
Chapter 335-Page 3/14
Context: Trunks continues to describe the androids power to Goku.
Goku: “If you, who defeated Freeza, think they’re a handful, then they must be really strong.”
Trunks: “Um... I tried to fight them but since it was two against one, I barely managed to survive.”
Significance: Trunks was suppressed and able to kill Freeza, but even at full power he can’t beat the androids.
Chapter 335-Page 4/14
Context: Trunks reiterating that the androids are stronger than SSJ.
Trunks: “ They’re just too strong!”
Chapter 335-Page 5/14
Context: Goku comparing his future to his current self.
Trunks: “Aren’t you afraid of them?”
Goku: “ Of course I’m scared, but I want to see how strong they are.”
Significance: Goku acknowledges Trunks strength, and that the androids could be interesting foes. Admiring he is scared, suggests that Goku is pretty much on par with Trunks.
Chapter 335-Page 9/14
Context: Trunks decides to give Goku the antidote for the heart virus he will contract.
Trunks: “Now that I’ve met you, I have hope again.”
Significance: Trunks is confident that Goku can defeat the androids or at least tip the scales in the Z warriors favor.
Chapter 336-Page 1/14
Context: Narrator is reiterating Trunks point about androids strength.
Narrator: “.... two Androids with amazing power will appear....”
Significance: The narrator is now confirming that Androids > SSJ > Freeza. This means that anyone who even fights with androids, should be above Freeza level!
Chapter 336-Page 5/14
Context: Piccolo explains that the androids are leagues above anything they have faced.
Piccolo: “I’m going to say this beforehand. Those without confidence don’t need to come! This time, the enemy is unusual... If you can’t fight you’ll just get in the way.”
Significance: If one can’t beat Freeza then they do not have the confidence to defeat Androids who can defeat SSJ’s who can defeat Freeza.
Chapter 336-Page 7/14
Context: Z warriors elect to train to prepare for androids.
Tenshinhan: “ I want to fight, as a test of strength.”
Significance: Tien knows the androids are stronger than SSJ which is stronger than Freeza, yet he still prepared to fight the androids.
Chapter 336-Page 8/14
Context: Z warriors agree to meet back in 3 years after training to combat androids.
Goku: “Really only those with confidence should come.”
Significance: Goku is also reiterating Piccolo’s point about SSJ being weaker than the androids. This line refers to power, and if they don’t have the confidence to beat Freeza, then they shouldn’t show up. Actually this could imply that EVERYONE who shows up to face androids is stronger than Freeza. Including, Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha.
Cross Reference
Chapter 211-Page 3/15
Context: Kaio is describing the power difference between the saiyans and himself.
Kaio: “ Matter of fact, they’re stronger than me!”
Goku: “ Waah!? Str, stronger than you?!”
Page 4/15
Kaio: “You got it. So to outdo them, you’ll have to out do me... AT THE VERY LEAST.”
Significance: If Goku can not defeat Kaio who is weaker than the Saiyans, then it stands to reason that Goku can not defeat the Saiyans as well.
Similar logic should be applied, if you can’t beat Freeza, what chance do you have against the Androids? It should be noted that Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien all show up to fight in both instances, and all 3 were above Raditz in the Saiyan saga, so since they surpassed the minimum standard then, it’s safe to say Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien are all stronger than Freeza. Each one of them is weaker than base Goku, so by default Base Goku > 100% Freeza on Namek.
Chapter 337- Page 3/14
Context: Z warriors gather to meet to face Androids after 3 years of prep.
Krillin: “ We’re going to fight some monsters to the end..... and I’m not a SSJ.”
Significance: Krillin is saying that he doesn’t compare to the SSJ Power Goku and Trunks displayed 3 years ago. However, he doesn’t have to be stronger than SSJ to be above Freeza.
Chapter 337-Page 8/14
Context: Z warriors are all gathered and are
Tien: “ I didn’t let Chaozu come. To be honest, he isn’t strong enough.”
Goku: “ Oh... it’s better to leave him behind then.”
Significance: Chaozu is for not stronger enough to even show up to fight, so he is more than likely not even above Freeza. Though this still implies Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien to ALL be above Freeza.
I agree, but you should've used the viz translations, the ones u used were the fan translations. You can find the real ones in mangarock.
Darshan Asmoro thank you, next time I will, but imo as long as the translation is accurate in depicting the story, then whether or not it’s “official” doesn’t matter to me. They called him Vegerott lol
But thank you for letting me know where to find full Viz!!! 👍👌
DragonBallDave363 still its more accurate than fan translations. In the fan translation old kai stated that since goku and vegeta are rivals their fusion is stronger but that wasnt the case in the viz. Good analyzing though!
So what I'm getting thanks to Gohan dialogue is after 3 years training:
Androids > SSJs > Earthlings > 3 ~ 30 or 50% Namek Freeza
Note: Gohan never saw or felt 100% Freeza in the manga.
Machiyuu-gaming good point. But the scene was also in kai which is canon to super.
I really do think this video is awesome man! I’m glad someone finally talked about this.
Thank you!
Seth: Argues Base saiyans from buu saga slapping cell saga ssjs.
Carthu: Argues anyone from Android saga could slap frieza and ssj Goku.
I love these guys. It's interesting
Yeah it's very interesting, specially for me who strongly disagrees with both notions. I'd really like to debate Seth or Carthu one day.
Ashura970 I disagree with Seth, but I believe Carthu is spot on in this video with his point. Even ignoring his calculations, and just going off of statements in the manga it’s clear that Yamcha, Tien, and Krillin can all beat Freeza. Each one of them is weaker than base Goku, so it stands to show that Goku is that much stronger. Unless we believe they are stronger than base goku, which I highly doubt. The same can said of Piccolo. He is implied to be at SSJ levels of strength, but is still weaker than the SSJs’.
I don't think a lot of people doubted that base Goku and Vegeta could beat frieza. There's so much proof supporting that they can with one of the things saying other wise was Beerus's comment in battle of Gods film.
TheHulkbuster13 Then again, he also lied about using 70% of power
@@Dragonballdave363 No, the statements don't imply that. In fact, the opposite is implied: Tenshinhan describes Trunks as "The man who took down Freeza" (Implying only Trunks and the SSJs can take on Freeza) and on their way to the island Kuririn tells Goku that "Not all of us are Super Saiyans", showing that he's nowhere near Super Saiyan power.
Them being weaker than Base Goku only further solidifies that. There's no evidence implying Goku made any outstanding gains in the 3 years, and even after 14 years of training it's stated Base Goku is weaker than Freeza.
Agreed about Piccolo. He's on the same realm of power as the Saiyans, but he's still not a Super Saiyan. He's only stated to surpass Super Saiyan after he fuses with Kami.
Freiza>>base sayan yamatcha kurilln tein
It is not stronger, it is impossible to be stronger
When he returned from Yardat, his base was not much stronger than it had been in Namek
Frieza was 40 times stronger than Goku's base
So you're saying they evolved 40-120 times
If at all even Yamacha is stronger than Frieza!!! Base vegeta should be stronger than ssj namek three years ago
Because Vegeta's base is stronger than Goku's base, Goku's base is stronger than Gohan, whose role is stronger than Krillin, and Tenchihan, who is stronger than Yamacha.
So there is a big difference, even if their base is really that strong
Piccolo is the power of the Saiyan base
I see no justification for using ssj, just base sayan they will overcome them
Remember that once Vegeta became stronger, 33% became confident of his ability to defeat him if he were a little stronger than Goku Namek. 33% or even less would be confident of defeating the Android in the base.
I want to mention something else
You do not have to be much stronger than your opponent to defeat him easily
A mere 5% would be like fighting Zarbon, a close, even fight. 10% is a medium gap with a little bit of struggle like Doudria and Vegeta. 33% is a huge gap like Kyo and Vegeta, a gap that enables him to defeat him with one hit.
This is an illogical increase in force
Goku increased the period of peace in the Piccolo arc to the Raditz arc in five years of peace
The rate of 4% from 400 to 408 for Saiyans does not increase much during the period of peace
While Tenchihan increased his strength from 240 to 250
Krillin from 200 to 206
While Yamacha's strength decreased from 180 to 177
Piccolo 390 to 408
So in the Yarat period he did not earn much
Let's talk about intensive training. Even intensive training with Kami over three years made his base only 60 percent stronger, and this with a trainer without whom he would make smaller gains.
If you were to tell me about Krillin and Yamacha Goku's gains in Saiyan Saga or in a spaceship
Goku used a gravity device trained by Kai to obtain his gains
While both Krillin and Yamacha were trained by Master Popo as well
As for Piccolo's percentage, it was at the level of SSJ because he destroyed the androids that were able to harm SSJ, Goku and Vegeta.
As I said a simple gap is all it takes to finish off your opponent
Android 19 was able to hurt Vegeta's lip, which shows that the SSJ-level Android was Vegeta's equivalent like Zarbon and Doudria on Namek.
If you say that he was destroyed with just one hit, use the Ping Bang Strike, which has doubled his strength by 25% above his level. This looks like the Masenbo that hit Raditz
The other proof is that it is impossible to be a base level Saiyan and then go to the SSJ level just by merging
The fusion of Kami and Piccolo is only doubled because they are both Namekians, which are one Namekian whose power is separated into two parts, which is different.
Piccolo has reached SSJ, which confirms that they did not gain much
Another piece of evidence is that Krillin compared SSJ's strength to Piccolo in the manga. There was a picture of Piccolo training as SSJ.
Add that he knows Goku's power changes ssj
So Piccolo got a huge boost in strength because he got a strong fighting partner
I want you to add that Gohan was disrupting them because he has ki strength that is three times weaker than Goku, which did not increase Goku much. Even in terms of yards, because he was in a period of peace, all he got was less than 4 percent, and he focused on techniques and mastering SSJ instead of increasing his strength.
Add that 20 was stronger than 19 in the beginning
19 then received a huge power boost
While 20 was weaker than 19, but not much after absorbing energy. 20 absorbed a lot of energy from Vegeta, Yamacha's energy, and Piccolo's energy
I want to talk about boosting a spacecraft, which raised the gravity level continuously from 10 to 100, while Vegeta raised the gravity device to 300, then moved to 400.
These are crazy payments due to the unlocking of the capabilities of Gohan and the Zenkai that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan obtained. This Zenkai decreased after Namek, according to what Zenkai says, so it will not become the strongest massive form.
Add that even a gap between enemies was not as strong as Frieza's forms
Where 18 was a gap like Vegeta and Kyo when he arrived on Namek, 17 was stronger than him, a gap larger than the gap between Dodria and Vegeta.
While 16 and 17 represented 16 gaps like Kyo and Vegeta
Cell was the same as the power of 16, then he added the power of 17 to it. So the gap was 75 percent
So, after training in the Spirit and Time Room, Trunks and Vegeta were only four times stronger in base, but they focused on surpassing SSJ and obtained grade 2 and 3, which doubled their base more.
Also I want to add something
Trunks' strength when he arrived was weaker than Goku's, which apparently caused him to defeat Frieza easily
First, Frieza did not reach his full power because Gohan said that Frieza's name had greater power than that
While King Cold has a strength slightly stronger than half of Frieza's strength, which is a huge gap
Add that Frieza was weaker than the Namek Frieza because he decided to bring his father with him
The gap between his name and Frieza was a good gap (25% higher than Doudria and Vegeta's 10%). Goku just wanted to break Frieza's arrogance so he didn't kill him
Add that you can see a slight power difference between Goku and Gohan
Where SSJ Gohan was slightly stronger than SSJ Goku. After seven years, Goku hasn't even gotten much stronger
Because vegeta compare ssj 2 gohan ssj2 goku
If he got a big boost, it wouldn't be a comparison. Rather, he might compare it to SSJ 1 Goku and SSJ 2 Gohan, who was stronger than he was in the Tenshikai Budakai arc.
Add that Goku obtained Zenkai, perhaps after the Battle of Cell
Toriyama go brrrrrrrrrr
The androids didn’t calculate Goku going to Namek remember? That’s why they were shocked when he went Super Saiyan. At most they was referring to Kaio-Ken x4 Goku
Exactly, this video is full of dumb and biased scaling
He also forgot the weight training and the zenkai boost he got on Namek. Dr. Gero never knew about saiyan biology to ever get an accurate calculation about Goku's power level anyways so using gero's calculation is actually not a good move for the theory.
@@ripper3052 I feel like some of his points regarding narrative scaling makes sense but yeah his math seemed off to me
@emille mcmillan yeah I didn't say he was wrong I was actually backing him by say he makes sense with the narrative scaling. I was just saying the math he used was off for all the reasons other have pointed out. Gero didn't know certain things about Goku and etc however it is impressive that he made himself and Android 19 so strong that they would've easily beaten SSJ Goku that returned to Earth before Trunks warned them so they could train.
@GodVanisher I think that using multiplier of 20 per year for Gero's estimations is extremely bloated. Yes, Goku became approximately that much stronger when he was dead for a year, but it is a bit weird to think that Gero would use an exponential scale that extreme. Even though Goku's strength grows exponentially (which is extremely stupid power scaling IMHO) it doesn't do that by default training but due to some extreme training (allowed by senzu beans), zenkai boosts, and transformations. And Gero most certainly hadn't think the progress to be a multiplier of 20 per year, since most of his observation is from Goku going from maybe around power level 100 (on Frieza's scouter power level scale, which is maybe the most convenient to use here, so I'll use it even though Gero most certainly didn't) at the age of 14 to around 400 at the age of 24 and then an occasion of special training unknown to Gero raises it to 8000. Even though he states that he has estimated growth for Goku's power and then added some more to beat him, he certainly still underestimated that basing it on the more reasonable growth that he witnessed during the first ten years of his observations and some occasional power-ups similar to the King Kai's training.
Let's say Goku got roughly 4 times stronger in 10 years, it means 15 % growth per year. As a calculating scientist Gero would estimate that to continue, albeit with couple of big jumps here and there, and then add some to be safe. So 8000*1.15^4 would be 14 000 which of course would be insignificant compared to special occasions. Let's say he approximated 2 powerups similar to King Kai's training, which would be really generous considering his data had only one such occasion in the whole 10 years he observed Goku, and that would mean he'd approximate Goku's power level to be around 6 million on Frieza's scale, or 24 million with Kaio-Ken x4. I think this would have actually been pretty accurate hadn't Goku achieved SSJ (which brings the number up to 300 million), since it would be (I think quite reasonable) double his base level on Namek against Frieza, which was 3 million. So let's say Gero thought that if 19 and himself as 20 were to have a power level of, say, 50 million, it would be easy for them to kill everyone. He of course also had 17 and 18 that would have levels around 400 million which he considered an overkill, and decided not to use them because of the risks involved.
The point here is that there is no basis for Gero to assume that Goku could keep up the pace that that he progressed at when dead. So even though Gero says that he has calculated how strong Goku could possibly be, he didn't actually use any ridiculous number like a multiplier of 20 per year. That was of course mistake on his part. And Yamcha most certainly was not stronger than Frieza as he got totally overwhelmed by 20. So I call this video bulls*it and say that for example Totally Not Mark makes way better estimations in his Power Level Series from couple of years back. Power scaling in DB is ridiculous, but probably not nearly as ridiculous as Carthu here claims.
Edit: Took into consideration the Kaio-Ken. That didn't change much in the end.
Don’t forget about filler Yamcha’s power. ;)
Man was able to clap Olibu, the same Olibu who was rivaling weighted Pikkon who oneshot Cell. And Olibu was training in the otherworld more, so ...
Filler Yamcha > Olibu (Kid Buu Saga) >=< Weighted Pikkon >= Olibu > Super Perfect Cell :0
And filler is not canon
Insertnamehere they hype the hell out of saitama
@@flamingblade3076 actually filler is cannon its stated by akira toriyama that dragon ball is the anime and manga
@@flamingblade3076 it IS canon to the anime
@@flamingblade3076 your mad yamcha is strong
The androids didn't think Yamaha was to the level of Goku if he trained for four years, Gero just said Yamcha was well above a normal human and he assumed it must be Goku
That doesn’t make sense...if it was merely a “stronger than normal” human, they would have guessed Roshi, Krillin, Tien, or even Yamcha himself before assuming it was Goku.
Nothing in this video proves anything lmao, just numbers pulled put of ass and nonsense calculations based on these fake numbers.
They just guessed it would be Goku since it was a strong power level, but then confirmed that it was Yamcha. Yamcha wasn’t even powered up so this video makes zero sense. Everyone was stronger than Gero had anticipated not only due to Namek, but because everyone was training extra hard due to being warned about the Androids. It’s debatable if these first androids themselves were on Freeza level lol.
@@grydon6422 All of his calculations were based on lowballed assumptions though. If you are saying these calculations are incorrect burden of proof falls on you to disprove them. Not going to say I've ever tried to scale 19 or 20, but I've never seen any proof for them being weaker than frieza. Interested to hear your point though
Yamaha a motorcycle brand
Goku got all them Zenkai boosts on Namek and before hand. Dragon ball Zenkai!
Thanks for bringing light to this, because I've believed this to be the case since it's release in my childhood. It only makes sense that they get as strong of not stronger than their previous threat
Z-Fighters seem to have this weird unique ability to always be a step behind the Saiyans even though it doesn't make sense if we try to think hard about it. But from a narrative perspective, the Z-Fighters need to always catch up. Roshi's explanation in the revival of f arc seems to teach us that just simply watching tough battles helps you improve.
I mean, it makes perfect sense, considering that there are Saiyans and they get insane power ups
Firstly, the intro looks godly! Glad I saw it in its 'complete' form :P.
Secondly, I am glad you 'stood up' for the humans. Everyone always thinking they are absolute trash xD.
Even though I am not into scaling (in terms of numbers), I really liked your point about narrative. Have read those manga pages so many times and I hadnt noticed the things you mentioned!
Excellent video bro, hope you are doing well :)
Nice calc! I like it when someone presents a fresh perception on things.
I’ve been saying this for years. It fits perfectly in the story narrative bcuz that narrative is “The Progresion Of Power”
Now which of the non saiyans are stronger than Super Perfect Cell? And since when exactly?
nicholascooney 👍
Bart Snibsnom this video is retarded. he said when Yamcha got one shotted by Gero, he was 2x as strong as Frieza. Wouldn’t that mean Vegeta was like 10x stronger than Frieza when Frieza came to Earth? lmao does this idiot not know power scaling makes no sense in DB and you can’t judge power levels by using multipliers and numbers.
nicholascooney knock that shit off. Tien was never and will never be stronger than Super Perfect Cell. He can’t beat ANYBODY. Super Perfect Cell would absolutely demolish any Tien from any timeline, series, and arc. If Buu Saga Tien is stronger than SP Cell, then that would mean at the time of the Cell Saga which was like 10 years before the Buu Saga, someone like Vegeta would’ve been as strong as Cell. Super Saiyan 2 Goku was slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 CELL GAMES Gohan. So by your logic, Tien would be close to Goku in power at that same exact time during the Buu Saga 😂😂😂 this is hilarious.
Are you really this upset that other characters can be strong in the series? You really need to debate me in Discord bro you’re too salty and stupid to keep going on like this
Gooldblooded BO3 I don’t believe this video makes that claim. , and in the anime Pikkon one shots Perfect Cell. Yamcha easily deflects the same Olibu who fought pretty evenly but lost to weighted Pikkon. Tien is always going to be stronger than Yamcha, so if Yamcha is arguably on that level then so is Tien. But that’s JUST THE ANIME!!!
As for Tien, he has to be at least relative enough to base saiyans that he can compete with Cell Jr’s. Even though the Cell Jr’s dominated the Z warriors, Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien all survived and took multiple hits from characters who were stronger than Semi Perfect Cell. In the anime they actually get hits back!!! If you don’t count the anime then that’s fine, but the point of this video was that Yamcha surpassed Freeza, and more importantly base Goku is stronger than Freeza.
Also please don’t comment back saying I used filler....... I made it clear I referenced the anime......... but even in the manga, Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha all survive the encounter with the Cell Jr’s, and are thus at least base saiyan tier.
You mean early cell saga as that saga is where all the androids appear and the android saga is just another name for the cell saga
Man I never realised this!
Actually, yamcha surpassed mastered ultra instinct goku in episode one of Super. Get your facts together, man.
I know they should get there facts straight
Big facts
Yeah i think it was 132 huh
Ultra Instinct is too strong to be compared to Yamcha.
@@kwezimashapa6425 you mean yamcha is too godly to be compared to ultra instinct
That intro tho 🔥🔥 (its me Tayshawn Howard)
I never got pinned before HOLY CRAP
Gratz
@@CarthusDojo thx
Just subscribed, notifications bell on!!!
Remember one important fact about when Yamcha gained a new breathing hole. Dr Gero had drained his energy, meaning no ki barrier.
@@ztr5934 Your facts are not straight. The Yamcha struggling with the gravity machine was when it was at 300x not 20x.
Damn that’s crazy that, surprisingly, I never that of this. Great video and breakdown. You have a new subscriber
Thank you. I've been saying this for years, but no one believed me. So very frustrating, the evidence is plain as day.
I did catch something new from this video though. Krillin said he was going off to train by himself with Master Roshi. And for Krillin to have gained that much power in this 3 years, Master Roshi would have had to power up similarily to Krillin, or the sparring between them would have been useless. Which means it's not such a stretch to believe Roshi from DBSuper when he said he secretly trained all those years when no one was looking(I'm paraphrasing of course), and that's why he was powerful enough to 1: "Fight" against SSBlue Goku, and 2: Do as well as he did in the tournament of power. He did better than Krillin in the tournament too, and considering how weak Krillin became without training, had Roshi continued his secret training while Krillin didn't, Roshi would have been much more powerful than Krillin in the tournament of power. Just my two cents from my own Head-Canon.
Not watching this video, none of the humans will ever surpass 100% namek frieza. It’s idiotic to believe otherwise
You are 100 % right, very Good Video
I have always knew that the z fighters were strong. Even when the dbs battle of gods came out and we were introduced to super saiyan god. I sat thinking bruh why is every one so shocked and amazed by beerus. Yamcha sitting over there could Hakai the earth if he felt like it.
Iain Girten 👍🏾😎
This throws totally not mark’s power level growth speculation out the window.
I know this is an old video, but...
Gero spied on Goku for 9 years (from the fight with Tenshinhan to the fight with Vegeta), and Goku cumulatively got about 40x stronger in 9 years. Gero, a math guy, is likely to average that out, figure that roughly 5x a year is Goku's average strength increase, and go "5^4 = 625, 625 x 8,000 = 5,000,000." If Gero's estimate of Goku's power now is 5 million rather than, um, 1.2 billion, Yamcha can still fit the bill while being significantly weaker than full power Freeza. (Though still way out of the Ginyu tier!)
Gero said he prepared for Goku to have to most Extreme growth possible which would be 20x
Gero already knew about the kaioken power level, so the max power he knew of goku would be 32.000 not only 8.000, so comparing from the tien fight to the saiyan saga, he became 160x stronger over 9 years (200 to 32.000), so around 17.8x over a year (which is similar to the 20x that he used in the video)
17.8^4 x 32.000 = 3.212.402.739 (kaioken x 4)
3.212.402.739 ÷ 4 = 803.100.685 (base)
Loved this! Would love to see you do an end of Z power scale for the humans.
Geez, someone really needs to do an ACTUALLY definitive DBZ power scale someday. The amount of downplays we've done with our favourite characters is insane.
And I definitely won't be the one to do the power scale, since I'm godawful with power scaling.
This video is full of bs and assumptions that are not true at all lol.
Glad to see more videos adding more power to the humans! Honestly, I am a little tired of seeing these over-powered Saiyanas and their cross-bred children being born with power instantly. I tell my friends in real life that Yamcha at the end of the Buu Saga is as strong, if not stronger than Perfect Cell. Yamcha was done horribly in Super. Power shouldn't just define fighters, because characters such as Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien are skilled. They are versatile in martial arts, not just random powers.
Oh really? Then if Yamaha was stronger than perfect cell the hell didnt they took him as well to babidis ship Huh? Dabura was stronger than perfect cell but not súper perfect....You are saying in other Words hey guys Yamaha is as strong as ssj2 Gohan in the buu saga ..
See how it makes no sense?
Dude accept it the humans even in the buu saga arent even close to the hundreds of millions because as i said by your lógic if Krilin is stronger than yamcha again Krilin would have killed dabura
Stop the cap Yamaha is nowhere the base saiyans in the bus saga who aren’t close to perfect cell so ur wrong 😂😂
@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj facts
Yamcha is the Strongest Z fighter... Come on man everyone knows that 💯👊
Critical-RAGE Yamcha vs Krillin
Rules: Max Power, Composite characters (anime, manga, guides, games), ignoring Toriyama interview, and Krillin has killed Puar
Edit: to be fair Yamcha smashed 18 so Krillin is also pissed!
@Son Rukiri big gay
Let's be real here. Tien should be the strongest human on Earth rn. During DBZ everytime we saw Tien he was either training or fighting alongside the z-fighters. We pretty much get the impression that the man was always training like Piccolo yet a Krillin that was bleeding from normal bullets fought on par with base Gohan (which is still pretty strong.) And was still made to look stronger.
@Under dawg r/woosh
It’s krillen
Broku72 brought me here. Great video man!
In battle of gods, one of the first things Beerus says is that goku in his current form could not have beaten frieza.
Thank you for making this video. This one is a hard pill to swallow due to the fact that the Z fighters no longer bring impressive destructive feats to the table that the Saiyans and others do on a daily basis.
I’d like to point out that’s not how power gains works. The more you do something, the easier it becomes and the lesser the gains are. Power gains are proportional, not exponential.
Finally someone says that you can't just continue training in the same place and do the same things and expect aways the same gain, the more you train the easier it becomes so you can't just multiple because it's not right
Yeah but this is DragonBall. Vegeta trained for one year in the room of spirit and time and came out with waaaaaaaaay more gains (to his base power) than he did in the 3 years before the androids
@@tomithy_lo you gotta look at it like this in those 3 years of training they were probably just increasing their base form powerlevel but in the hyperbolic time chamber they set their mind to achieve a higher level of super saiyan
@@trentdavis404 that is definitely true, but even after this point characters get significantly stronger from shorter and shorter training periods. In the Buu saga Gohan spends a few days training on the planet of the Kais and was at least physically stronger than Goku in base. It just makes more sense that the stronger you are the harder you can train? Or at least that the gains are exponential.
This is what we all thought back then.
I still problems in your theory, one: The androids really didn't have no idea of the rate of which Goku was getting stronger, sure they calculated with wherever numbers they did but never into account other factors, case and point the gravity training during his trip to Namek which completely made his power level skyrocketed and it also seems they don't know about saiyan biology which is a huge problem because of the zenkai boost as well as the ability to go super saiyan, gero really had no way of predicting goku rate of power. So i don't think it'll be accurate to use this to explain why the humans are stronger than frieza because goku at that point was league above everyone else and the ONLY reason that they thought that Yamcha was Goku was because by their calculations Goku should've been the only person at that level of power however that does not mean he was stronger than frieza, there's no concret evidence to say that yamcha, krillin, or tien(to a degree) have surpassed frieza. The only ones who surpassed frieza up to that point besides the three super saiyans are piccolo for obvious reasons and gohan who trained with goku and piccolo for three years and also fought final form frieza and was able to hold him off. At this point in the series, i don't neither of the three humans surpassing frieza.
I agree about the numbers and androids' estimates about training being misleading. However, the narrative explanation does support the claim to an extent. Given what Krillin and Gohan experienced on Namek (and what Vegeta and everyone saw with Mecha Frieza), they wouldn't have faced off with the androids unless they were sure to contribute. Maybe not be stronger than Mecha Frieza, but definitely not be as weak as a Yajirobe versus Vegeta.
SAIYAN SAGA: TIEN
Though they are both fairly close in power the Daizenshuu does say Tien had a slightly higher power-level when they fought Nappa than Krillin. However this can be up for speculation because all the Z-fighters were supressing their true power-levels, so their full power is unknown. What is known are their feats during battle against Nappa. Tien is the only fighter to engage Nappa, for a substantial period of time, alone, and with one hand. Though he is getting beaten, he is still fighting to the point Nappa says he's a "tough bastard". Krillin however mostly fights Nappa in a duo with Piccolo, therefore appearing stronger than what he actually is. Tien is brutalized far more than Krillin and takes more damage, yet stays in the fight until he kills himself. Krillin takes some damage but is later knocked out by the shockwave of Nappa's blast, which is not as impressive as Tien durability.
Both Tien & Krillin nearly kill Nappa in their own ways. Krillin's attempt is impressive but it mostly plays on Nappa's stupidity and lack of knowledge of the Destructo-Disc, once Nappa realised how it worked, it posed no threat to him and was easily avoidable. Tien however nearly kills Nappa with raw power, Nappa is able to avoid it but does suggest afterward that it would've killed him had he not seen it coming, and even Vegeta is in shock of how much power Tien had. So even though Krillin's attempt was good, it was more him trying to outwit Nappa, while Tien was just going to annihilate him with sheer power, which I find more impressive.
NAMEK/FRIEZA SAGA: KRILLIN:
Once Krillin & Gohan get their potential unlocked on Namek, its suggested their power-level is about the same as Vegeta's was in the Saiyan Saga when he was on Earth (give or take) So if that is in anyway accurate that puts Krillin far above Tien at that time. Unless you count filler which in that case Tien is far stronger than Krilliin because he fights two members of the Ginyu-Force simultaneously and defeats them both on King Kai's planet, but in actual canon Krillin is stronger.
ANDROID/CELL SAGA: TIEN
After the three year preparation for the Androids it's unknown who's stronger, but I believe the story indicates Tien is stronger. When Yamcha is punched through the chest by Android 20 the first three people on the scene are Goku, Piccolo, and Tien. They are also the three that fly off to fight the Androids in the desert, which could mean nothing, but to me suggests those are the three strongest amongst that group (bar Vegeta & Trunks of course)
But undoubtable the greatest feat Tien has is his performance against Semi-Perfect Cell. Krillin's punches didn't even make Semi-Perfect Cell flinch, he just stood there and smiled. So the fact Tien could forcible hold Cell down and smash him into the ground over and over like that is not only the best thing Tien has ever done, its one of the impressive moments in DBZ. So in that moment Tien is far above Krillin.
BUU SAGA: TIEN
Seven years after Cell, Krillin has retired, its unknown if he's stronger or weaker than he was in the Cell saga, most likely Krillin has regressed rather than increased in strength. Tien however has gone into isolation, during that time, to do nothing but train. So its safe to assume Tien has increased in power, while krillin has probably decreased. Krillin is able to charge Super-Buu and stall for about 5 seconds, which is ultimately futile, but it is something. Tien on the other hand is able to deflect Buu-Tanks' blast saving Gohan, which is actually very impressive considering Buu-Tanks is stronger than both Ultimate Gohan & SSj3 Goku. So I believe Tien is stronger during this period.
All in all I believe Tien is stronger than Krillin, despite popular opinion. In pure martial arts he was able to defeat Goku in a competition, and when it comes to power levels and feats 90% of the time his are better than krillins. Anything past DBZ I don't care about because DBS is trash.
Remember when Yamcha was actually able to hurt Goku.. Yeah I do too.. It was like around uhhhh 600 sum episodes ago
Great video and a necessary one. People underestimate the humans way too much. They've always surpassed the previous big bad. They surpassed Raditz in the saiyan saga, They surpassed Vegita(Saiyan Saga) in Frieza saga. It makes sense that they would surpass Frieza next. One thing to add is that they might have tapped into some form of unknown multiplier of their own based on kaioken. My reference to this would be a statement made by Tien when he was in king kais planet where he says that in order to surpass goku he will develope techniques of his own. And a second reference would be that he does go into a powered up aura state from time to time. That would make the jump in strength a lot more believable than just having their base forms be a lot stronger than Frieza.
so nuts!!......yet so true!!
It makes sense, but the scaling for Humans is lesser than Saiyans or Namekians so they would be still a good amount weaker than Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Suppressed Piccolo, and Gohan. Similarly to the gaps in strength during the Saiyan Saga. With Goku being 4 to 5 times stronger than the Humans. Also Trunks would then be a great deal weaker than Goku and Vegeta as a SSJ because he only had about a year to train rather than 3. But it’s nice to see the humans get the respect they deserve. Also this makes sense as to how Krillin and Tenshinhan were of some worth in the ToP because they are far beyond the power of Freeza who was able to subjugate a Universe with his power alone.
So weird, Yamaha was always my favorite character as a kid lol now that we’re older and people are making memes about him being so weak I’m ashamed 💀
Whatever his actual power level actually is/was, he's still a planet killer if he wants to and could take on 95% percent of the Frieza Force in one on one combat. Not to mention he's stronger than 99% of the Saiyans that have ever lived. The only ones stronger than him are the ones he's friends with. Plus Broly.
@@hyperdrivepics And Cumber.
*Started out as a wolf in the streets, Now I’m rakin bulma in the sheets; don’t step to me if ya don’t know the way of the wolf cause that’s my flow, ITS THE GREAT YAMCHA*
*Dont step on my streets if ya can’t take a beat, my fist so fast I cross up the heat; don’t step on my toes cause* ya don’t know me~ *Hitodama, won’t stop my momma; you’ll take these balls if ya can’t block baka*
Let's not forget who's responsible: it's between Toriyama himself, Toyotaro, DBS teams, and the toxic elements of DB fan base.
Toriyama always used Yamcha as the guy who gets beat up to show how strong an enemy is. Then despite beating that Saibaman, it did that kamikaze move. It was a surprise move that could have killed the others but everyone calls him weak for it. But then Toriyama made Yamcha a cheater so Bulma get with Vegeta to have Trunks. But he later retcons that when he says Yamcha is still afraid of women. Even Yamcha's Japanese VA didn't like that direction. So basically Yamcha is a victim of character Assassination.
Toyotaro promised to do more for Yamcha but just made that baseball episode where it was just appealing to those memes.
Plus let's not forget some NOT ALL of the fan base. They made those memes and mock the character for all his faults. At first it was funny but it's no longer funny and it has become more mean spirited. I mean there are fanfics making Yamcha into a rapist.
Yes Yamcha has his faults and made mistakes. But how things have been written for him, and treatment by some fans, I don't think he deserved all of it.
What we need is more fan works like DBZ Elsewhere (that Reborn crap does not count. Not Real Yamcha not real redemption) where it goes against Toriyama and fan expectations..
Sorry about my rant but in these discussions about the character these points are not always brought up. So offering the counterpoint. I am more a Gohan and Piccolo fan but seems Yamcha got the " crap end the stick" lately...
Am i the only one who realizes for his intro his avatar goes from bandage on his hands to wristbands LMAOOO
Still an amazing intro
Too be honest I have a really hard time believing any of the humans ever got to frieza level even as far as we are in Super now. Definitely in the hundreds of thousands but I doubt even a million but I suppose a million tops could be believable
Exactly, a weaker fighter can still injure a powerful one. Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin with Piccolo the strongest being at 1,200,000. Were still able to inflict damage on a 50% - 60,000,000 Frieza.
Plus weaker characters are able to gather their ki and concentrate it into a single powerful attack. Combine it with their spirit energy (life force) and they can multiply the attack power even further. Like Tiens Neo-Tri Beam.
@@ItsDeebs only weird thing if you're saying 1 million tops then the Shin Kikoho multiplier must be on the 3000x range, in that regard tien could kill namek freeza.
Only if Frieza was not in his final form could he win. The super spirit bomb couldn't kill him and that packed a bigger punch than anything Tien could hope to produce.
I love the B team characters too. But they never reach that power. When Beerus first meets Goku looking at his base form he says there's no way you could've defeated Frieza at your level.
@@ItsDeebs sorry but tien held back semi p cell and he was probably more than a 1000x stronger so Shin Kikoho>spirit bomb and even if you put tien below 1 mil power level which i think he has about 3 mil on cell saga
Cell took no damage at all. Not even a scratch or dirt/dust stain.
Vegeta is at about 3.5 - 4 million when he begins his 300 times gravity training. Struggling at first. Yamcha almost dies and never surpasses it.
Tien I believe after his training, would've been able to stand and move around at 350 times gravity.
I would put him around 8 million which is still very powerful. When they charge up attacks, early in the series it at the most got a 3.5 times increase and lets say channeling large amounts of spirit force can give it another 3.5 or 4 to be generous. Now that makes an attack around 56 - 60 million. Which is excellent and would definitely knock back an unexpecting stonger warrior.
Well done. Lots of food for thought here.
Yamcha has always been a god in hiding 🤣
Yamcha has no drive anymore to train though but it would be nice to see him be a part of the next series.
I think he lost his drive to train due to all the humiliating loses he has received. Plus the traumas being killed by a Saibaman and nearly killed by Android 20...
Frieza would effortlessly handle 300 times gravity. And yes that's the Frieza who fought Goku on Namek.
No matter how much you do the math, I will never believe prime Android saga Krillin could beat 100% final form frieza, let alone mecha frieza. It shouldn't be possible for a human to get that strong, they don't even have multiplier transformations like the saiyans. Nor do they have the awesome genetics of Namekians. (Being able to stretch limbs, grow huge, regeneration, healing arts, telepathy, fusion, super hearing, sharp nails, dragon ball creation, ect) The average Namekian power level at birth is probably slightly higher than humans too because they know what energy is, your average human does not.
facts lmao
U should try a would if Goku fought android 17 and android 18
He would have been killed.
The Hyperbolic Time Chamber saved everyone's ass.
People forget, gero didn’t see goku vs trunks, but he definitely knew it happened, since he knew of frieza vs trunks, and gained both king colds and friezas cells for cell from that fight.
Yamcha never surpassed Frieza, unless you count that filler in the Buu arc when he was fighting Olibu in Other World. I don't personally count it because its not canon. Tien and Krillin didnt really surpass Frieza in overall power either until the Buu saga but they have certain techniques and strategies that could give them the win. Kikoho for Tien, Kienzan for Krillin in combination with the Solar flare, etc.
Stop hating
One thing I’m curious about. This may count as retconning, but in Battle Of Gods, Berrus comments that base Goku couldn’t possibly defeat Frieza. So, I was under the assumption that Goku’s base form by Battle Of Gods was at 100 million or less, and that his previous powers levels before that would naturally be less than that. Consider that Beerus is a god, and that as such, I’m unsure if suppressing one’s power would have any affect on his ability to sense your power.
There are so many explanation for that
A: Beerus expected Frieza to be much stronger then he was(Which is likely given Frieza's potential he might have expected Frieza to have Trained)
B: Goku was suppressed
C: Beerus was so much stronger then both Goku & Frieza that he couldn't tell the different's between ants
I already knew that Yamcha was way stronger than even mecha frezia at this point, that's why I thought it was weird when people always criticized him, which every arc after cell up till super he got way weaker, but even in super he is really strong.
All very logical and like this video thanks you.
Nice video, but those calcs are awfully off. Gero didn't expect Goku to make gains anywhere near what he made at Kaio because of age:
Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P8.6-7
Goku: “I see…But did you spy on the battle on Planet Namek too?”
No.20: “There was no need. By the battle with Vegeta and co., we had already completely grasped your power and techniques. We calculated that no matter how much you improved afterwards, considering your age, you wouldn’t have any increases as enormous as you had before…”
This isn't supported by the story either. It's established that earthbound training isn't very effective for power growth and that they can only hone their skills in such ambient:
Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P13.1
Context: after training under God
God: “You have all surpassed me now. There is nothing more I or Mr. Popo can teach you. Return to the lower world and refine your skills until the final confrontation.”
The Z Fighters training in earth for the 3 years after training at Kaio's is akin to training with 50kg dumbbells after training with 250kg; it's not going to be very effective. It's implied not even Goku made considerable gains in this time period, given how he's still comparable to Trunks after training. Sure, Tenshinhan is surprised by his power, but keep in mind Goku 3 years ago wasn't at his full power.
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”
I wouldn't count their confidence as much either. Tenshinhan is overprotective with Chaozu (He also asked him to stay behind in the Saiyan Arc) and Kuririn, the strongest of the earthlings, established on his way to the battlefield that he's not confident because "Not all of us are Super Saiyans".
Tenshinhan admited before that he just wants to see what he can do in fight, and when it was actually time to fight, he admited he was relieved that Vegeta and Piccolo were so strong and implied only Super Saiyans could defeat Freeza.
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”
Honestly, Yamcha would be lucky to reach Saiyan Saga Goku. He never learned Kaio-Ken even though he trained about as much as Goku and in better conditions, which indicates his body simply isn't build to support so much power. The strongest human, Kuririn, acknowledged that not in a million years he could reach the level of any Ginyu Tokusentai member (Sans Guldo). Namek
Freeza could rip even Gero a new one, let alone Yamcha.
Hope you see this and we can debate about this on Discord or anywhere.
Yep Discord, link is in the description.
Perfect Video to watch after waking up....The title is insane
I don't believe it or at least I don't want to, but I understand, and my mind is blown by what I'm hearing, but again I understand. Long time ago after seeing Krillin fight 1st form Cell in filler and seeing Tien hold back a 2nd form Cell, I did think that Krillin and Tein at least had to be at least around full powered Frieza. This was before I remembered that People can increase their power levels with certain energy attacks, but before I watch this video, I did think that the human characters had gotten above the million or into the multiple million range and with certain attacks could increase their power more. But now because of this video and DragonBallDave363 comment I'm rethinking everything I knew cause I thought that a power level in the billion range didn't happened until android 16 or at least around 2nd form Cell. So now I'm questioning everything I ever knew so I'm a little steamed right now. Info was very compiling, so kudos
The title made an interesting point, but i wasn't convinced in the end.
I feel you might be right but the proofs are not that convincing. The best one was thi kikoho scene, imo, but there are a few hiccups here and there so... "just maybe" XD
Exactly Tien was able to keep semi perfect cell at bay but wasn't doing serious damage to him...
@@MattRuthless not even 16 could make semi perfect cell flinch with his punch at full power, but tien's tri beam could, unless you say to me that tien's tri beam somehow multiplied his power level by millions of times, it's impossible for him to be below frieza and SS1 goku from namek, and the narrative suports this by literally everyone saying that only the ones that can help would show up to the fight with the androids, knowing that there would be guys far beyond frieza's level.
I really doubt he has a power level over a billion but he definitely can one shot Mecha frieza at that point if he went back in time
Argument of credulity and emotion fallacy prove Yamcha can’t
Late to the game but quick reminder, Trunks was referring to Androids 17 and 18.
No kidding he's stronger that frieza him and tien were fighting off cell juniors
He is not lol, even Goku wasn’t stronger after the whole DBZ, as stated by Beerus
Logan Skopp fighting off or getting the life kicked outta them ? 😂😂
@@Jo.MeL95 well if it was frieza he would have died in 5 seconds fighting the cell juniors.
They were being toyed with, they got their asses handled. When Gohan went for the rescue apart from Vegeta and Piccocolo all of them, included Goku, needed Senzu beans!
@@princelamar1735 He'd be as effective as Picollo. this "z warriors supesses frieza" argument is bullshit! They'd all be in the level of first time supersayan if it was possible, and when picollo becomes stronger than a supersyan they make a big deal about it, so theyd have made a big deal about the other Z warriors being stronger than frieza if it was a thing! Toriama would have make sure that this was stated, thats how he progress the story, with comparisons and exposition! WERE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ANIME WITH THE HEAVIEST EXPOSITION DUMPS EVER AND YOU REALLY THINK THAT IF THIS WAS TRUE HED HAVE LEFT THIS FACT FOR OUR IMAGINATION?
I refuse to believe that Yamaha is stronger than Frieza, nothing in this video told me anything about Yamcha that would make me think he increased in strength so drastically that he suddenly became stronger than Frieza
I love how all you said was I don’t believe Yamcha is stronger than freeza so he isn’t that’s an argument of incredulity and a burden of proof fallacy all wrapped into one explain why
Being super optimistic yeah he is stronger than Freeza in his 1st form, but there is nothing stated officially.
Besides multipliers and statements about the size of an object they can blow up (cell saying he could blow up the solar system, Goku VS beerus would destroy the universe) there isn't ever any direct confirmation. That's literally the reason power scaling exists
Smart analysis. Since Tien, Chiaotzu, and Yamcha trained with King Kai, do you reckon they should've learned Kaio-ken or the Spirit Bomb?
You know, Tien's an amazing martial artist. He trains every day and has come up with some cool moves like the Solar Flare, Multi-Form, and Flight. I reckon he should be stronger than most humans. There's this filler episode in Dragon Ball Z where Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu are fighting the Ginyu Force.
Lol don't they have guide books for their power levels
Up until the Freiza Saga
Couple points here. Goku was being studied since he destroyed the RRA so the gains he made in the year after Raditz arriving are pretty meaningless. The androids only say that Yamcha could have been Goku as the energy reading was higher than thought to be humanly possible, keep in mind that Gero knew Goku was an alien by then so it simply means Yamcha>any Saiyan that arrived on earth before they stopped their research on Goku (so basically Vegeta). Even if we put Yamcha above an Oozaru Vegeta that's still only 180k. Yamcha's 1 year training gave him around a 8-10x boost which would put him around 14,000,000 max (if we use the Daizenshuu numbers). The fact they accounted for Goku growing stronger at a high rate doesn't straight away put Yamcha that high as he doesn't need to be that high for the andorids to think he was Goku. The fact that Freeza is also still used as a measuring stick and Tien straight up says Trunks, who beat Freeza was even beat by 17 & 18 shows that a suppressed Mecha Freeza (because we never see Freeza power up and as we see on Namek there is a process for him powering up that takes a bit of time) is still impressive to Tien, unless we're to believe he was going by his reputation alone. Krillin even uses him as a measuring stick for Cell but then he had seen 100% Freeza. The only picture we get of Goku's training in the manga is of him as a SSJ fighting both Piccolo and Gohan. It's also pretty obvious Toriyama, in traditional Toriyama style, just forgot that Tien was present for Goku's SSJ transformation vs Trunks as he acts like he's never seen him as a SSJ so that can't really be used to scale either. Lastly, not fact but more of an observation. Standing a chance doesn't necessarily mean being anywhere close to their power. Krillin mentions him having a long face was because they're not all SSJ's. He was still apprehensive about fighting a being supposedly stronger than Freeza even with everyone there. The humans are, at best, around 25% of Freeza (Goku's 10x KK on Namek) level and that's if we're very generous. The rule of them surpassing the previous main villain isn't true in every case. Tien was above a weighted Goku in the 23rd BD who was considered equal to his KP arc self who was marginally stronger than KP. Everyone else human wise was below this. Everyone when Raditz arrives was below Piccolo from the 23rd TB. Although nobody actually fought in the manga, everyone, as far as we know in the Namek arc was still below Vegeta from the Saiyan arc. Also, as we know Krillin basically conceded to losing to the base Saiyans in the Buu arc TB and we know that Goku wasn't considered equal to or above Cell arc SSJ2 Gohan until he went SSJ2 which by default puts the base Saiyans waaaay below Cell at his strongest. The humans aren't fodder by any means, they're just not anywhere near even the weakest version of a SSJ that was hyped up to be the strongest fighter in the universe for almost 2 arcs.
lmao, basically the takeaway from this video is that Chiaotzu is trash, 🤣
The humans have always had faster growth rates than the aliens. Saiyans, Namekians etc. Goku training with Kami compared to the humans, Yajirobe included. Goku training for months with King Kai, Vegeta getting Zenkai boosts, Krillin and Gohan getting their potential unlocked.....all would have or have gotten slapped by the Ginyu Force, yet the humans with a few days of training passing them
And this is ignoring a line from the subbed version of the DBZ Anime where Mecha Frieza states his supernova attack is 10x stronger than the one on Namek yet Trunks caught that bitch with ease. 1.2 billion actually makes perfect sense for the humans if they were aiming to surpass Mecha Frieza.
Carthu's dojo I really like your intro.
He maybe could beat freezer but he's not going to beat Shaggy at 1% of his power
I disagree with the numbers you use, both because you can’t expect Goku ‘s solo training to have equivalent results to when he trains under an experienced master and is actively acquiring new skills and techniques.
The idea of someone becoming 20 times stronger from a year of training, four years straight, also seems odd both because it doesn’t even resemble reality, isn’t consistently mirrored elsewhere in the series, and doesn’t account for the well -known diminishing returns of working out.
I also feel that the human Z warriors wouldn’t gain experience and results at the same rate as Goku.
With that said, I do agree that the android saga is (roughly) where the humans surpass Frieza. I just doubt that they had already surpassed him by so much.
Here's the thing Gero outright say he prepared for "The Most Extreme Rate Of Improvement" The Most extreme would be 20x a year
I actually like the human characters
So do i, have you heard of DBZ elsewhere?
That's why I hate beerus' line about how goku VS freeza must have been a hard fight. It's ridiculous because goku should be ridiculously stronger than even cell at that point, even in base form
I personally like to say he got around 40× stronger on King Kai's planet and 12× stronger during each of the following 3 years putting Yamacha at around 1,191,360,000
It is not stronger, it is impossible to be stronger
When he returned from Yardat, his base was not much stronger than it had been in Namek
Frieza was 40 times stronger than Goku's base
So you're saying they evolved 40-120 times
If at all even Yamacha is stronger than Frieza!!! Base vegeta should be stronger than ssj namek three years ago
Because Vegeta's base is stronger than Goku's base, Goku's base is stronger than Gohan, whose role is stronger than Krillin, and Tenchihan, who is stronger than Yamacha.
So there is a big difference, even if their base is really that strong
Piccolo is the power of the Saiyan base
I see no justification for using ssj, just base sayan they will overcome them
Remember that once Vegeta became stronger, 33% became confident of his ability to defeat him if he were a little stronger than Goku Namek. 33% or even less would be confident of defeating the Android in the base.
I want to mention something else
You do not have to be much stronger than your opponent to defeat him easily
A mere 5% would be like fighting Zarbon, a close, even fight. 10% is a medium gap with a little bit of struggle like Doudria and Vegeta. 33% is a huge gap like Kyo and Vegeta, a gap that enables him to defeat him with one hit.
This is an illogical increase in force
Goku increased the period of peace in the Piccolo arc to the Raditz arc in five years of peace
The rate of 4% from 400 to 408 for Saiyans does not increase much during the period of peace
While Tenchihan increased his strength from 240 to 250
Krillin from 200 to 206
While Yamacha's strength decreased from 180 to 177
Piccolo 390 to 408
So in the Yarat period he did not earn much
Let's talk about intensive training. Even intensive training with Kami over three years made his base only 60 percent stronger, and this with a trainer without whom he would make smaller gains.
If you were to tell me about Krillin and Yamacha Goku's gains in Saiyan Saga or in a spaceship
Goku used a gravity device trained by Kai to obtain his gains
While both Krillin and Yamacha were trained by Master Popo as well
As for Piccolo's percentage, it was at the level of SSJ because he destroyed the androids that were able to harm SSJ, Goku and Vegeta.
As I said a simple gap is all it takes to finish off your opponent
Android 19 was able to hurt Vegeta's lip, which shows that the SSJ-level Android was Vegeta's equivalent like Zarbon and Doudria on Namek.
If you say that he was destroyed with just one hit, use the Ping Bang Strike, which has doubled his strength by 25% above his level. This looks like the Masenbo that hit Raditz
The other proof is that it is impossible to be a base level Saiyan and then go to the SSJ level just by merging
The fusion of Kami and Piccolo is only doubled because they are both Namekians, which are one Namekian whose power is separated into two parts, which is different.
Piccolo has reached SSJ, which confirms that they did not gain much
Another piece of evidence is that Krillin compared SSJ's strength to Piccolo in the manga. There was a picture of Piccolo training as SSJ.
Add that he knows Goku's power changes ssj
So Piccolo got a huge boost in strength because he got a strong fighting partner
I want you to add that Gohan was disrupting them because he has ki strength that is three times weaker than Goku, which did not increase Goku much. Even in terms of yards, because he was in a period of peace, all he got was less than 4 percent, and he focused on techniques and mastering SSJ instead of increasing his strength.
Add that 20 was stronger than 19 in the beginning
19 then received a huge power boost
While 20 was weaker than 19, but not much after absorbing energy. 20 absorbed a lot of energy from Vegeta, Yamacha's energy, and Piccolo's energy
I want to talk about boosting a spacecraft, which raised the gravity level continuously from 10 to 100, while Vegeta raised the gravity device to 300, then moved to 400.
These are crazy payments due to the unlocking of the capabilities of Gohan and the Zenkai that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan obtained. This Zenkai decreased after Namek, according to what Zenkai says, so it will not become the strongest massive form.
Add that even a gap between enemies was not as strong as Frieza's forms
Where 18 was a gap like Vegeta and Kyo when he arrived on Namek, 17 was stronger than him, a gap larger than the gap between Dodria and Vegeta.
While 16 and 17 represented 16 gaps like Kyo and Vegeta
Cell was the same as the power of 16, then he added the power of 17 to it. So the gap was 75 percent
So, after training in the Spirit and Time Room, Trunks and Vegeta were only four times stronger in base, but they focused on surpassing SSJ and obtained grade 2 and 3, which doubled their base more.
Also I want to add something
Trunks' strength when he arrived was weaker than Goku's, which apparently caused him to defeat Frieza easily
First, Frieza did not reach his full power because Gohan said that Frieza's name had greater power than that
While King Cold has a strength slightly stronger than half of Frieza's strength, which is a huge gap
Add that Frieza was weaker than the Namek Frieza because he decided to bring his father with him
The gap between his name and Frieza was a good gap (25% higher than Doudria and Vegeta's 10%). Goku just wanted to break Frieza's arrogance so he didn't kill him
Add that you can see a slight power difference between Goku and Gohan
Where SSJ Gohan was slightly stronger than SSJ Goku. After seven years, Goku hasn't even gotten much stronger
Because vegeta compare ssj 2 gohan ssj2 goku
If he got a big boost, it wouldn't be a comparison. Rather, he might compare it to SSJ 1 Goku and SSJ 2 Gohan, who was stronger than he was in the Tenshikai Budakai arc.
Add that Goku obtained Zenkai, perhaps after the Battle of Cell
By seeing this title I thought you were talking about dragon ball z elsewhere
thats illigal!!
Two problems, Android 17 said he used half his power to fight SSJ Future Gohan , who flat out says is weaker than his dad before he died and using Gokus growth rate in the Saiyan arc ( that's inconsistent in the first place ) and trying to apply it to Yamcha who is an entirely separate character is a little bit of a stretch.
Discord is open to debate me on this if you want. Link in description
Carthu’s Dojo No fair! Why can't we just debate in the comments, I mean you did it with the other guy.
This is something I’d need to link scans for as you saw me doing with other people in DC
Imagine Gero just lifting frieza up and shanking him
Power levels have always been linear blind there is no evidence of them ever being exponential even in early levels and in fact the opposite of them being linear even in that stupid guide which placed Goku at a 10 say that Goku with a ten times increase is at 100 so they are linear
Tien could Kikoho #19 and #20 to oblivion but alas, the human characters were pretty much abandoned by this point.
2 things I think you should also have mentioned are;
1) Goku says Trunks was holding back when they spar, so both of them were suppressed.
2) Gohan directly states that Mecha Freeza is weaker than Freeza on Namek. While I do believe he was just referring to Mecha Freeza before he powers up, it still stands that Mecha Freeza wasn’t as strong as 100% Freeza on Namek. He didn’t get a chance to power up and really increase. Gohan directly told Yamcha that Freeza can get a lot stronger.
They don’t actually change the point, so it’s not biggie! Other than that this is my favorite video on your channel!
How the humans would have been relevant (already know about Krillin in Super)
Humans have similar transformations that Frieza & even Piccolo have Saiyan God transformation (probably won’t happen)
Kaio-Ken (which should have been learn including Piccolo)
Yardat techniques
Obtain God Ki
Ultra Instinct
Training Method:
Gravity Training
Supreme Kai (Unlock Ultimate potential)
God Ki training
Etc
Seriously DB humans have many opportunities of getting stronger but too much focus on the Saiyans in general also the fact people think that db fighter get weak which equal to weak powerlevel if that the case then Frieza who born strong should be weak for not training (until he learn lesson there will always be stronger in the Universe)
I thought this was a nothing but a troll video for Yamcha
Using basic power scaling Yamacha is between 180,000 and 5,120,000,000.
This is using his Saiyan Saga counterpart and saying he got around 120× stronger to using your training boost to Kioken×4 Goku in the Saiyan Saga
That intro animation was better den super in itself😭
All you said is what I always thought too!
Everything he said was wrong
Firstly, Number 20 was stronger than Base, in reality he was stronger than Goku Kaioken 20
When Goku used his power almost completely. 20 said that 19 is stronger than him and that he is at such a level of strength that he can keep up with him (not defeat him). In order to keep up with someone you must be close to his level. It is stronger and easier than Kayoken 20. Piccolo was not Goku's base power. When he was beaten from 19. He was the first to go to defend him. It was level 19 at the time.
As for Goku's base, it was not the level of Frieza or even Vegeta. Vegeta has become twice as powerful as he was on Namek. Goku and Vegeta each had 5 million. It is clear that Future Gohan has not gained much power in more than ten years, neither did Trunks nor even Goku. In fact, Beerus said that Frieza is stronger than Goku's base when he met him the first time. It is impossible for humans to be stronger than Frieza
Oh wow so you had my boy Chaiotzu X-out that's cold bruh
With all due respect, and in all honesty, Carthu, what you stated is not your opinion, it is the absolute 100% truth. The answer is in the manga and the anime. But so many fans ignore the small details, they missed out on the evidence in the story narrative. And in doing so completely lowball all the earthling Z fighters. From the bottom of my heart I just wanna say thank you, because this is something I’ve been for years. Your video and your channel is the only one credible evidence and defense for the Earthling Z fighters. This is the only video, that tells the truth. All the other UA-camrs just lowball them and Collett a day. The earthling Z fighters specifically Tienshinhan Yamcha and Krillin, our universal when it comes to power scaling & power level. They are not on the same level as the Saiyans, but they are also OP.
I find it hard to believe that base goku is relative to piccolo. Piccolo must be stronger than him in my opinion. Also, how strong is dbs krillin? Can he solo dbz? Is he stronger than base Goku (I find that to be ridiculous, people really seem to underestimate base goku)? If so, can you state where it was mentioned in the series?
Everything he said was wrong
Firstly, Number 20 was stronger than Base, in reality he was stronger than Goku Kaioken 20
When Goku used his power almost completely. 20 said that 19 is stronger than him and that he is at such a level of strength that he can keep up with him (not defeat him). In order to keep up with someone you must be close to his level. It is stronger and easier than Kayoken 20. Piccolo was not Goku's base power. When he was beaten from 19. He was the first to go to defend him. It was level 19 at the time.
As for Goku's base, it was not the level of Frieza or even Vegeta. Vegeta has become twice as powerful as he was on Namek. Goku and Vegeta each had 5 million. It is clear that Future Gohan has not gained much power in more than ten years, neither did Trunks nor even Goku. In fact, Beerus said that Frieza is stronger than Goku's base when he met him the first time. It is impossible for humans to be stronger than Frieza