I love how Ike helps Soren grow as a person. A like that they're a positive representation of how gay people can also grow for the better because of each other. Idk I just like non-toxic queers. I get that people want more "complex" queer representation, but not everything has to be an abusive relationship to be complex and meaningful.
I do appreciate that while 3H doesn’t have as many clearly queer characters as it could, those that do exist feel pretty different. Like, Dorothea always seems to more tolerate men than like them, while Mercedes actually reads as very evenly interested in women and men, even if she approaches women much more subtly (which fits her background as living in Faerghus through her adolescence and early adult years). Then you have Edelgard who I usually peg as more pansexual; she attracts to people who show her trust and understanding and it doesn’t much matter if those people are men or women to her. It could be better still, like Petra and Shamir both have pretty clearly romantic pairings with women but you don’t really see that side of them in other supports, but it’s definitely an effort that sadly wasn’t built upon in Engage.
Though in Edelgards case I still feel like she comes off as fairly sapphic, which probably could be due to her generally not having very outstanding romantic supports with male characters in 3 Houses outside of m!Byleth, whose pairing with Edelgard is wastly overshadowed by f!Edeleth. Her support with Dorothea is insanely romantic, while the closest men to her in the Black Eagles, Ferdinand and Hubert, both ome off as rather platonic. I actually wished we would have gotten more scenes between her and Claude in 3 Hopes, because for me personally he always seemed like the man I could see her sharing the strongest romantic chemistry with. I guess this is also due to being on a very equal footing with her, which Edelgard values in a partner, while Ferdinand and Hubert are more subordinate to her. Nothing against people who ship her with either of those two, just for me they really feel more like close brother-like figures in her life.
@@shizachan8421 definitely a read I can see in the game. I think you can also read her relationship with Hubert as one marred by a deep misunderstanding: Edelgard believes he serves her out of a sense of duty, rather than the sort of deep trust that she finds in Byleth or Dorothea (commoners who had no reason TO follow her that day in the goddess’ tomb but did anyway) and it keeps them at arm’s length. Hopes goes into this a bit more, but it’s a sort of sad note to their dynamic. But Hubert is perfectly fine with platonic love in any event so it’s more something a player can infer than something that’s clearly meant to be understood. That said Edelgard’s aesthetic, goals, and the contrasts in her personality are all very evocative of sapphic romance anyway so that’s definitely meant to be a strong part of her character, which makes it a lot more interesting to focus on.
@@CmdrKing There are alot of communication issues between Edelgard and Hubert and I personalyl read him as very deeply traumatized by his inability to protect Edelgard from her torture, which he copes with by very obsessively dedicating himself to his personal duty to her. From a fandom perspective I feel like with those two in particular, its also just them having other ships which are much more popular, Ferdibert and Hubernie being very popular Hubert ships and Edelgard having her sapphic harem. I also feel like fans really just like the identity of the Black Eagles as the gay house, which is an organic reading due to its very strong found family vibes. And when it comes to Edelgards sapphic aesthetic, Hopes also gave us the undeniable treat of her sacred weapon in that game being a Labrys xD And I will not complain about fandom perceiving her as mostly sapphic, firstly because I prefer wlw to begin with but also because its such a phenomena to see her carving such a strong wlw presence in the Fandom, when usually it remains fairly niche in most fandoms which are not heavily female and sapphic centric. The only time I personally saw it before was Korrasami.
@actuallizard this is the first time I've ever had a video creator respond to a comment I made, and I 100% love that it was this comment to change that. I'm crying 😂
I want to point out that sex change potions canonically exist in awakening, because Ricken offers one to Sully in their support, she rejects it. However this means either ricken has exclusive/easy access to this potion for some reason or it's a super common potion and as a result sex changes are common.
@@pandabanaan9208 I'd say it probably is out there. If changing biology would be that simple in-universe, then we should be getting Radiant Dawn levels of shapeshifter units every game instead of just the token Manakete.
9:43 I've heard this called "mechanical bisexuality" that mechanically they're bi but in any given playthrough they're monosexual. verilybitchie has a great video from about 2 years ago on it
The "strong hinting" at queer pairings is something I hope just fully becomes a thing of the past. Holy based 56:35 having opportunity for debate on this topic can be so exhausting and while I'm sure there are reasons FE is reluctant to have openly 100% canonical queer pairings and characters (like protag being either gender and having every character as a romance option, though if this is the only reason that'd be real odd), it would absolutely be a massive leap in the right direction if fans could with certainty be able to identify with these characters without leaving room for any fingerwagging and "well, actually"s. This was awesome to listen to!
The podcast's title dredged up a memory. I always parsed Lyon as having a repressed gay attraction to Ephraim. It's not hard to read his obsession with Ephraim's physicality and masculine confidence as attraction, even if Lyon tells himself it's just jealousy. It's not necessarily unrequited considering how close their relationship was and how hard Ephraim takes it when he realizes Lyon cannot be saved. Maybe Lyon was so sure Ephraim didn't feel the same way that it led to the quiet resentment that drove him, at least in part, to do everything he did. Maybe just being honest about his feelings felt could've saved him. I'm not saying this was an intended reading of the text, it's just funny how you don't have to try very hard to see it that way. It adds a certain color to Lyon dying in Ephraim's arms too.
This was great to listen to, I almost only see FE LGBTQ discussion on tumblr. I also missed a lot of the subtext in FE7 when I first played the game growing up, only to come back as an enby adult and realize these dudes were in love. I actually just finished a run of that game where Lucius crit one-shot Nergal thanks to his A supported boyfriend.
I've always read Ike as ace, myself. He just seemed so thoroughly oblivious to romance in general as well as completely unconcerned with it. Like it's just not on his radar at all, at least not as a thing he'd ever be interested in. Looking at his interactions with Aimee, I never felt like it was "I'm not interested in you" or even "I'm not interested in women" so much as "what the heck, this is a weird thing I completely don't care about." And with Soren, he just... cares a lot about people and their pain, and not at all for stupid social expectations. Relatable. He treats Soren as fully a person where no one else would. And Soren, who was never just unquestioningly accepted for who he was by anyone else, only feels able to exist around Ike. Which... yeah, if I found myself in that position, I absolutely would hang out pretty much exclusively with Ike, despite being very into women and not at all into men. That said, gay Ike reading is also legit. The main thing that he _can't_ be argued to be is straight, TBH. I kinda like that it's definitively queer but a little ambiguous about what kind. Not everyone is going to show off their innermost selves. Though, it occurs to me, they're not mutually exclusive. Maybe Ike is homoromantic ace?
I've always kinda read Ike that way too. Though I do think he has more reasons to be weirded-out by Aimee, she's significantly older than him (I think) and comes on VERY strong.
I think 15:40 is a really good way to judge missable representation I remember when I was in high school and played life is strange 1, I didn't even know you could choose to romance Chloe.
Love the first episode, I'm looking forward to see what else you cover in this format! Good representation is certainly tricky to write, especially using the framework that Fire Emblem seems to use for its cast of characters. Everyone is supposed to have a distinct "gimmick", serving as a hook so players can instinctively know if they want to use/learn more about them, while also serving as a basis for gameplay tie-ins like class, stat spreads, and personal skills. Which seems reasonable, but we don't exactly want any identity pushed as a one-note gimmick. At best, it can feel ingenuine and fail to properly convey the importance of those lived experiences, and at worst it can be played for jokes like with the male characters that dress in traditionally feminine clothes. I mean, this is kind of a cynical view on the quality of FE character writing, and I wouldn't necessarily say characters need to be super deep and complex to be good representation. In my mind, the critique is just like, have good, thoughtful writing? And make sure characters have something else going for them other than just that identity. Even if it's not much, like with Leon having an established overall confident personality and a fun group dynamic with the Pirate Throne squad.
Great first episode! Incredible name for the show! FE (and the fandom) has a strained relationship to queerness despite so many fans being queer. I don’t feel like online conversations about queer rep in FE are often very nuanced, but you all really nailed it! I resonate a lot with the discussions of how queerness is never an intrinsic part of characters in the series. That frustration is what lead me to making FE-styled SRPGs with virtually entirely queer casts! Great listen. Will be listening to future episodes.
What a pleasant surprise in my recommended! I already watched some of your videos here and there but this is a great episode to open the podcast on. Unexpected crossover with Alexis as well, i just listened to her as a guest character on the Super Idols Rpg podcast not too long ago! I played the pre-awakening western released games when i was younger and hadn't really figured out any of my queer shit, bought three houses a while back and managed to play mostly blind. In a weird and roundabout way, the 3 houses OST is practically my egg cracking playlist and i inducted myself into the apparent legion of sapphic edelgard stans.
Maybe its just because im a prehistoric queer so this is my friend group, but Rodrigue has such gay widow vibes about Lambert, especially when he talks to his kids (Dimitri counts regardless of parental orientation) about the guy, that I was legitimately shocked when there's a mention of Felix's living, happily-married-to-rodrigue mom in three Hopes xD. Like my subconscious had fully assumed a surrogacy situation without any real shipping or input from myself until that moment.
For me queer readings of faerghus men always have me HC very suppressed closeted homosexual men obsessed with their straight appereances, in a very Brokeback Mountain kind of way.
Kind of late to the party but I really enjoyed this podcast. I did not know about Soren only having 2 support. My favorite pair is Ike and Soren. I liked that you could feel the connection they had and how supportive they were to each other throughout their journey. Chrom and Robin Engage convo is a close second for just how funny it is though lol.
It's not FE, but I think the best representation of a queer character I've seen is Veronica in Fallout New Vegas. Fully fleshed out character, has many personality traits, and her trauma over losing a past (lesbian) lover is one of them
First of all I've been thinking about how interesting FE's diversity journey is (for better and for worse) a lot lately and am super stoked to see this podcast. Second of all, just want to shout out Cormag/Artur because it's a pairing I wouldn't have read into at all but then I saw fanart of it and realized just how hecking cute they would be oh my god edit from the future: And third of all, I originally commented how happy I was with Rosado specifically and how much I appreciate him being a portrayal of a gender-noncomforming guy, and now having listened to the podcast I...still sort of think that, but also y'all definitely helped me see the downsides of the portrayal as well. It's funny, I remember recently thinking something exactly the same about Persona 4 in the "A gender-nonconforming portrayal can still be homophobic as hell" sense and somehow never made that leap to Rosado/Forrest/etc as actually being transphobic. I appreciate getting you three's take on that and I think I get where you're coming from, definitely a bit of a wake-up call that it's worth reevaluating how I feel about different instances of rep instead of desperately clinging to my first impression.
I think my favorite queer pairing has got to be Marianne and Hilda in 3h. Marianne is just so anxious and a mess but Hilda just loves and supports her anyway and their support is so cute and they’re so gay for each other.
Hilda is generally fascinating because while she isn't romanceable with Byleth ans has no outright romantic support line, there is just alot of hints and subtext about her being bisexual. And like always the star is the headcanons people formed about it and which developed their own life, like how Hilda not being recruitable and somewhat hostile towards Edelgard lead to this really great bitter exes headcanon betwen those two.
On your discussion about queerness in Fodlan, I think one of the interesting things of this game is that while we don't have any information about it in the actual game, the implications and general social structures we are presented with creat very clear implications, especially the game dares to take a very critical look at aristocratic and feudal structures, in some routes at least. I think its similar to misogyny and patriachy in Fodlan, while the game never openly states that the culture is patriachal and might discriminate against women, the implications of everything we learn about the characters lifes and society at large strongly implicate it, how for example with crested men there is always this hugh focus on their noble inheritance and expectations of martial prowess, while with women the focus is always how they can be sold off into marriage. We have Bernadetta being severely abused by her father to become a proper wife and Ingrid is another strong example, while with her male peers the emphasis of their crested duties is always towards their martial training and crests being the weapon that defends Faerghus from invaders, Dimitri being trained like crazy since childhood and all, with Ingrid the expectation of her father is always on finding a wealthy husband to her, with her knightly ambitions being framed and antithetical to the expectations of her family. And this very patriachal societal structures highly focussed on bloodlines and inheritance lead towards very cisheteronormative implications. There is a reason why there developed fairly strong comphet headcanons for Ingrid in particular. With Rhea, I feel like the thing is how she probably wouldn't be personally homophobic and might take some queer people under her protection, but that she is ultimately very apathetic towards systemic issues in Fodlan at best and helps upholding them even if it is for the sake of keeping things under her control, even if she isn't personally supporting them. Racism is another issue, we learn how the church perpetuates a very xenophobic culture on large, while Rhea took Cyril and Shamir under her wing, despite them being foreigners.
While I do like Rosado and Forrest as characters and I’m fine that they are not trans, I empathize completely with feeling like trans identities just don’t exist ever in Fire Emblem outside of technicalities like the morphs. I’m also trans, and it feels disheartening whenever media I love just doesn’t acknowledge me. It would have great if in Fates or Engage if there was an actual trans character alongside those two, but alas it was not to be.
I know the boy-that-looks-girly character is Problematic, but I'm a really big fan of Lucius and specifically his pairing with Raven. RobinXChrom, LynxFlorina, Ike/Soren and last but not least, Me/Mordecai. But I really do like how queer the series has been at least from 7 forward, but representation does have to get better, especially trans rep. I really wish Rosado was trans. I like Rosado, but he could have been MORE! Anyway, cool podcast!
I really really really enjoyed this. I think it's important to hear views on art from people very different than you to increase your knowledge and enjoyment of it. Thank you!
An interesting theory I've heard about Shamir is that she's bisexual, but picky when it comes to women. This is supposed to explain why Catherine is the only woman she shows romantic interest in. Unfortunately, there is no way to proof it, but I do like this interpretation. I really liked the video! Leon was the first queer character I ever saw in media, so I'm happy to see more people talking about Fire Emblem's representation and acknowledging how important it can be for some. Looking forward to the next episode!
I agree. My only feedback would be to include some images/clips for people who may not have played all the games or know about all the supports mentioned here.
Just starting this, but I refuse to believe Ike x Soren isn't canon. Little me felt something about them before I even realized I was bi, and as an adult playing through 9/10 again I still get that same feeling. It also helps that my type is booky nerdish guys and I always really felt attached to Ike as like the guy I wanted to be.... Very excited to see what y'all say ❤
i cannot stress enough just how much queer coding is in the tellius games, after learning how to read into the subtext, its actually staggering how well the games were coded. i firmly believe whoever wrote those games was very intent on including such colors in those games and doing them justice. unfortunately, intelligent systems has failed to coherently write queerness since then, so i can only assume the writer for tellius has long left the franchise.
@@franciscop9009 for the most part i like leon, but from an aesthetics standpoint he seems almost like a caricature of what intelligent systems thinks a gay man looks/acts like rather than genuine representation. its hard to take him seriously when hes blowing a kiss and winking at everything he kills on the battlefield. the fact that he was destined to just follow valbar(who gets married to a woman) around for the rest of his life and never experience being loved also doesnt sit well with me. and the fact that they just took his design and pasted it onto yuri in the very next game just came off to me as their inability to show different types of gay men. all that being said though, i still appreciated leon's inclusion when i played sov for the first time at release. he was the first explicitly gay character(or as explicit as implicit can get) after fates and awakening so it felt like good progress was being made at the time
@@2CABALLEROS yeah I get that. also nah, he's properly explicit when he talks about his reason for having joined the army to have been him being "head over heels for this one guy" who died in battle
@@2CABALLEROS The Japanese developers in an April Fools prank (the teased Echoes demake) made some pretty questionable jokes about Leon too, like writing his name with the kanji for "man love".
Honestly, I think every protag going forward should be non-binary so there's no argument that they're queer regardless of romantic pairings. It'd also save IS on voice acting and art costs, and probably make the main character have a bit more weight to them since they're less interchangeable and avatar-y.
I know it's not officially possible or anything because it comes from a fic but there's a really cute ship of Severa and Lucina in Ylissean Odyssey and is forever my head cannon
I always hated the characters that are only bi if you as the main character wants to date them just because in my personal life I've had so many run ins with the trope of like "oh you'll find someone who will make you straight" attitude and I don't like giving credence to that even on the gay side of things
Obligatory shout-out to F!Byleth/Mercedes. I haven't even seen their S Support yet, admittedly, but I feel like no-one talks about it. I still think we should have actual explicit same-sex pairings that don't involve the Avatar, at some point. 3H has a few paired endings like Sylvain/Felix and Dorothea/Manuela, but they tend to be ambiguous. At the same time, I like Engage's focus on platonic paired endings (though most of it is a localization thing) as representation for other parts of the spectrum, e.g I headcanon Alear as Aromantic Pansexual. Speaking of Engage, I actually like how Rosado (in the localization at least) has platonic paired endings with Male and Female Alear. This is just my opinion and I hope I'm being respectful, but here's how I see it: back in the 90's or even 2000's, you could NOT have a character like Rosado without heavily implying he was gay, he'd just be a walking joke about that. I like that we're allowed to have a character present like Rosado now and not have it tied to sex or romance. Rosado could be attracted to any gender, or he could be aro or ace, and that doesn't really matter. He's just himself. (At the same time I understand that it might suck for people who want to marry him)
I feel like f!Byleth/Mercedes kinda suffers under the fact that Mercedes in general ended up being somewhat overshadowed by Dorothea and Edelgard, which led to sapphic fandom strongly gravitating towards Black Eagles house.
@@shizachan8421 Yeah it's easy to get overshadowed by the first openly bisexual Lord. I guess it's more a me thing, because I don't like Edelgard or Dorothea (not a fan of most of the Eagles actually, except Hubert and Ferdinand), Sothis is no (although it's easy to interpret her S Support platonically) and Rhea is 50 shades of NOPE, so by proxy Mercedes is the only sapphic Byleth pairing I can enjoy... but even with all that aside, I really like Mercedes as a character and that's the main reason I wish the ship got more love.
@@BigKlingy Oh, why do you dislike Dorothea? With Edelgard I can get it because she ended up being so divisive, but I'm genuinly curious about what you dislike about Dorothea, because she is one of my personal favorites and who I would probably rate as the best written character in the game even above Edelgard. I have to admit, I personally like Mercedes alot as well, but I think I haven't found a ship with her I would latch onto strongly. Edeleth and Shezleth are the only Byleth ships I personally like and I'm personally just not that much invested in Annette. And with Ingrid, because I played Crimson Flower first I just got hooked too strongly on Dorogrid. Though I guess her being a Blue Lions character is probably also one of these issues Mercedes has when it comes to sapphic fandom appreciation, the BL fandom being very het and yaoi centric if you know what I mean.
@@shizachan8421 Dorothea is just... she judges people very harshly based on first impressions. I get that she has an excuse for it, but her attitude in supports was very off-putting for me. Mercedes I always felt handled her issues with nobles better... though that's again most of a "me" thing, I prefer using humour and satire to criticize parts of society you dislike, rather than outright hostility. People kept telling me Dorothea/Ferdinand was good and it ended up being one of my least favourite support chains, which might also play into things. (For me it was just: "She hated him for years for superficial reasons, he perved on her.") I'm aware not liking Dorothea is a massive hot take (she and Bernadetta are the only 3H playable characters I dislike from a writing standpoint, but Bernadetta's more obviously divisive in the fandom). It's nice to have someone interested in a (hopefully reasonable) discussion of my reasons why though, especially with how much "discourse" there is in the 3H fandom. I thought Annette/Mercedes was decently popular? I guess it's the only major F/F BL pairing though. Only reason I'm not into it is because I ended up unexpectedly loving Sylvain/Mercedes. And in case anyone asks: my issue with Bernadetta is her anxieties are constantly played for laughs despite existing due to horrible parental abuse and trauma, and I can't shake the fact they're also fetishized too. (Her Japanese S Support jokes about her worrying Byleth might SA her, yikes) She feels like a Fates character who somehow ended up in 3H's more grounded setting.
Coming here after my brother mentioned watching this before he told me about why he dislikes Rosado in a way that seemed lowkey transphobic and acephobic and definitely felt hurtful (I’m trans and ace). I’m not accusing anyone here of being any sort of -phobe, but I want context for how my brother went from just finding Rosado annoying to claiming that a gender non-conforming character is entirely and exclusively a sex object. EDIT: My brother talked as if you were all in agreement that specifically Rosado’s presentation or characterization was transphobic. Clearly, that isn’t really the case. So now I know that the weird stuff he said isn’t a warped version of someone else’s take, it’s just his own thoughts. And I’ll probably have to confront him on it if he ever brings up Rosado again. That’s definitely going to suck…
While I will say the sapphic representation in 3 houses was better….the gay/achillian representation was absolute shit….your telling me as male Byleth I can’t romance Claud and my only romance options are a serial killer…and book worm that’s more interested in studying me as a science experiment than as a boyfriend….and fem boy and the other two s rank male supports end platonically….not to mention female Byleth had twice the amount of same sex romances
Engage having more laid back romances was kinda of a nice breather. I enjoyed ironically getting one of the only explicit romances options, the 11th hour old man character, pan romantic edition. Loved Lindon
But it kind of makes it hollow as there no reasoning behind it and because there is no paired endings it makes it useless as you dont even get an ending where they date anyone but the MC, not that different from a game that lets you choose your gender despite being written with a male character in mind
I get when people say “it’s not like the sapphics are depicted perfectly though”. It’s true, but also, the males attracted to men were really screwed over and that felt BAD! There’s room for both, it just shows how lacking the team behind the game was when it came to representation. Maybe as time goes on we’ll get great rep for everyone in the lgbt community, but I don’t want to return to Three Houses style of gay romance at all if we’re gonna get 1 gay option at base game and pay for the other 2
9:43 This is why i scratch my head that some people think that Engage was better when all it did was just make it more hollow, at least in 3H even if some were limited because the developers choose to let them be with either Byleth it made it more meaningful, and of course the fact that there were a lot of pairings on the endings that did not involve Byleth at all
Ike/Soren, Lyn/Florina, Gerik/Joshua, Elincia/Lucia, Tibarn/Reyson, Chrom/Robin, Lissa/Maribelle, Corrin/Silas, Soleil/Nina, Caspar/Linhardt, Dorothea/Manuela, Yuri/Ashe, Edelgard/everyone are all my healthiest plausible ships. Leon/Valbar/Kamui and Raven/Lucius deserve better. But I still have a soft spot for Kent/Sain because I read them in my first fic in the fandom.
The most funny thing about 3 Houses queer shipping is really how they tried to give you a self-insert MC yet Edelgard came out of it as the Harem Protagonist.
Favorite ship? I'm a fan of Ike x Ranulf myself, but I get Ike x Soren or the numerous Three Houses ships. Maybe that's just recency bias. On a similar note man I know it won't go anywhere but hear me out. Sasha x Kate in Tear Ring Saga. Or Ace Runan. That would be nice too. As a gay man here, I think what I would want to see out of representation would be more queer options, queer options for non-avatar characters, more characters akin to Balthus or Hanneman being queer, and a non-binary option for future avatars. If IntSys or Tecmo-Koei must do a second gen again, I mean have the second gen be characters who look up to or worked closely with the first gen, and acquire their weapons and skills. As it stands, I think representation in the series is pretty standard for the medium. Admittedly this is more a condemnation of the medium, but it's nearing a decade since Fates released and characters like Niles aren't much different than offerings in current games like Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3 these days. Grain of salt though given I like Linhardt. I can't say I like Forrest or Rosado myself, but after Blue Period I'm just glad if the "femboy" isn't portrayed as someone doing it to pick up guys. There should be more "mascgirls" though. I get why there isn't given society's fetishism of the feminine, but it would be nice.
Such a great discussion! What I want is some more explicit queer rep, like actual “I love you” and romantic exchanges. Less left up to interpretation! The trans stuff is iffy so far, it seems they have little interest in depicting any gender issues deeply. But I’ll never say never… who knows, maybe we’ll get drag queen or trans man/woman rep someday Also I’m not someone who would rather go backwards from avatarsexual characters, I feel like it’s better to have that than nothing at all. HOWEVER… I do think the queerness present in that should be more prominent!
I really want to see a Trans femme Pegasus Knight! Pegasus Knight is a female exclusive class because in certain myths only women can ride Pegasus, or unicorns. Having a Trans woman ride a Pegasus, while keeping the gender locked classes would be so cute. I could also imagine her having a great support line if you included a bigoted character Like Shanon(I think that's his name, the archer in Path of radience) The support would have the transphobe confront the idea that a Trans woman can ride a Pegasus, he would try to justify it, or disprove it , but in the end he has to accept it.
I've only played Engage and 3Houses. So much of Firene is very gay to me. Chloe and Alfred jump out at me as very obviously LGBT. Seadall wears a binder, and I headcannon that as transmasc. Rosado, especially since they can wear the "girl" clothes strikes me as a trans woman that they weren't allowed to outright say is trans. So many of the Rosado supports are about looking inward and being true to yourself and admitting you're pretty and cute. As a trans girl that got me good. In 3H, Dorothea is a queer character and Petra strikes me as a queer woman too. Edelgard has a lot of story beats I relate too that incline me to also view her as a trans woman
Thoroughly enjoyed listening to this. It was super interesting from the perspective of a straight cis man. I'm hesitant to share my views as I don't feel I'm particularly learned about everything discussed but I think it's important for ideas to come together nevertheless. I can't speak to how members of the LGBTQ community see things but I don't quite understand finding the femboys transphobic. You guys weren't parroting the take I've seen online that Rosado or Forrest SHOULD'VE been trans but still. Femboys are a thing, they exist separately from trans people, and they've become more popular in recent years even outside of FE. It's almost become a standard anime trope and there are even popular streamers who dress that way. I agree it's problematic when it's consistently played for laughs but I can't recall a single time in Engage they did that with Rosado. It's entirely possible it happened and I just don't remember it though. I don't know that them continuing to include femboys but not trans characters is necessarily an attack on them but I do agree it'd be good to have them properly represented with 2 or 3 characters. I really like the term you used, Schrodinger's Bis. Got a good laugh out of me. On the one hand it's nice that any player can romance any character they want but I agree it feels like an afterthought that doesn't really count towards representation. As far as romance options go I think there should be some bi and strictly gay characters. Not a token one each like Fates, but a nice handful of choices would be nice. I also think you're right about romance in Engage, take this with a grain of salt though since I could be misinformed. I've seen like you that there was more romance in the Japanese. I'm fairly certain the reason they made so much of it vague or entirely no existent in the localization is because of the characters ages. I think if you look at their internal ages in the code a lot of the characters range from 16-18 including Alear clocking in at 17. Treehouse might've been worried about writing romance with characters that young and younger in a few cases. Like I'm pretty sure Anna's original Japanese support was romantic oddly enough. The lack of paired endings bothered me as well. I'd prefer them be there but it won't make me skip a FE if they're not. At least not on their own. TLDR, loved this and can't wait for the next episode. Very interesting topic that is deserving of close inspection.
Yeah, this is hitting. In FE's defense (not much of a defense though) the femboy thing is just kinda a thing in a lot of JP media (especially more recently), which is fine... But, like you say, when it's a bit every single time and it's so divorced from queerness every single time, it comes across as very shitty. Like if they even on occassion took the time to turn it into an actual conversation, which they have plenty of opportunity to do in support convos, that'd be fine. Hell, they could even still be straight. Comparatively rare as they are, they do exist, but don't make the characters oblivious about it to the point of coming off as stupid.
I'm not trans, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I do agree that the Fire Emblem "femboy" trope is usually extremely transphobic, and if not its AT LEAST sexist. It really does suck, having actual trans characters in the series, or even just characters who look more masculine or feminine than is typically expected of their gender, without all those weird tropes, would be a breath of fresh air not only to the LGBTQ community, but also just the average player. *However,* I would argue Rosado is the exception. He doesnt get the stupid "oh haha you look like a girl!" gag that every other feminine man in the series tends to boil down to, and hes just a guy who's confident in his presentation and just likes cute stuff. Hes one of my favorite characters in Engage because hes just cool. I get that a lot of people wanted him to be trans, and I think headcanon is cool, I just personally love Rosado the way he is. On a final, less serious note, hell yeah, Lizard podcast EDIT: I should add to this. Part of the reason I love Rosado being as simple as he is is because it honestly resonates with me a lot. I'm mostly a cis man, but I've found that I don't really fully identify with my assigned gender. Not that I'm trans, or even entirely non-binary, but rather that I simply dont find my gender to be a particularly defining feature of my identity. I feel like Rosado comes off the same way, it seems implied that he doesnt care that hes a man, not that he doesnt want to be one, but just that the label doesnt define him. They definitely could have done MORE with him, dont get me wrong, but I feel the same applies to MOST of Engage's cast; the game just wasnt trying to be anything too deep, and I think thats fair.
The thing with the femboy characters in Fire Emblem is that in terms of canon, they aren't TRYING to trick people or anything. They way they are treated by other characters and even sometimes by the games themselves might not be great, but the message is always along the lines of "what they are doing is fine and good, and you shouldn't think less of them for it." They might not always succeed in getting that across, but I THINK the games are telling you to listen to what the characters themselves are saying and treat them they way they want to be treated. Even at it's worst, I think it's mostly fine for this reason. The things wrong with it, if any, isn't what the game is trying to say, it's just a writing issue.
@@wriggletime1412 I think the MAIN issue is not that characters mistake them for women (this is realistic in a lot of cases, you can't always tell someone's gender just by looking at them), but more so that it's a repeated gag played for laughs constantly rather than ever shedding any light on the serious part of the subject
Rosado is such a weird case where in engage's sea of very one note characters who have a bit and stick diligently to it, if rosado was in a vaccum I'd probably have really liked his gimmick, but he isn't we keep having femboys who are as far as fe gender diversity goes, and while less heavily a joke, I dont like his personal skill being "confuse men around him".
I think asking for lgbt representation that matches american sensibilities is reasonable, but I don't think demanding or expectingit is. You're setting yourself up for disappointment. Lgbt discourse is very different in Japan and our cultural understandings and standards arent inherently better than others. I would love more explicit representation that doesnt offend or demean the people they want to portray, but I honestly dont think they're capable of that. Its an iterative process and they will hopefully get better over time, but I would rather they keep trying and failing than decide they cant make an lgbt character that matches our standards and just not trying anymore as a result.
say something nice about Soleil challenge! 21:28 gdi don’t diss my wife i stg she’s never gonna escape this 😭😭😭 idc what the japanese game says we didn’t play the japanese version, we played international and she bisexual 😡😤 the international support version is wholesome af it’s cute! and m!corrin is cute as hell, he can get an S support with Soleil because he’s adorable and sweet and a wonderful idealist. the line “I like men just fine” isn’t bullshit and if you think it is, guess what, i can call you biphobic! get off your high horse!
Calling a lesbian biphobic for pointing out pretty blatant and obvious homophobia just because you don't wanna feel bad about your waifu is pretty shitty actually. You should feel bad, but you should also work on some media literacy while you're at it. As Alexis and Lizard pointed out, Soleil cannot S-rank with any women! A decidedly, obviously sapphic character has no S-ranks with women!! She's not bi, she's a victim of fantasy conversion therapy, badly whitewashed for the international release.
I love how Ike helps Soren grow as a person. A like that they're a positive representation of how gay people can also grow for the better because of each other.
Idk I just like non-toxic queers. I get that people want more "complex" queer representation, but not everything has to be an abusive relationship to be complex and meaningful.
I think it's good to have both. But I agree, we love a happy gay couple :)
Too many people think "complex = suffering"
I do appreciate that while 3H doesn’t have as many clearly queer characters as it could, those that do exist feel pretty different. Like, Dorothea always seems to more tolerate men than like them, while Mercedes actually reads as very evenly interested in women and men, even if she approaches women much more subtly (which fits her background as living in Faerghus through her adolescence and early adult years). Then you have Edelgard who I usually peg as more pansexual; she attracts to people who show her trust and understanding and it doesn’t much matter if those people are men or women to her.
It could be better still, like Petra and Shamir both have pretty clearly romantic pairings with women but you don’t really see that side of them in other supports, but it’s definitely an effort that sadly wasn’t built upon in Engage.
Though in Edelgards case I still feel like she comes off as fairly sapphic, which probably could be due to her generally not having very outstanding romantic supports with male characters in 3 Houses outside of m!Byleth, whose pairing with Edelgard is wastly overshadowed by f!Edeleth. Her support with Dorothea is insanely romantic, while the closest men to her in the Black Eagles, Ferdinand and Hubert, both ome off as rather platonic.
I actually wished we would have gotten more scenes between her and Claude in 3 Hopes, because for me personally he always seemed like the man I could see her sharing the strongest romantic chemistry with. I guess this is also due to being on a very equal footing with her, which Edelgard values in a partner, while Ferdinand and Hubert are more subordinate to her. Nothing against people who ship her with either of those two, just for me they really feel more like close brother-like figures in her life.
@@shizachan8421 definitely a read I can see in the game. I think you can also read her relationship with Hubert as one marred by a deep misunderstanding: Edelgard believes he serves her out of a sense of duty, rather than the sort of deep trust that she finds in Byleth or Dorothea (commoners who had no reason TO follow her that day in the goddess’ tomb but did anyway) and it keeps them at arm’s length. Hopes goes into this a bit more, but it’s a sort of sad note to their dynamic. But Hubert is perfectly fine with platonic love in any event so it’s more something a player can infer than something that’s clearly meant to be understood.
That said Edelgard’s aesthetic, goals, and the contrasts in her personality are all very evocative of sapphic romance anyway so that’s definitely meant to be a strong part of her character, which makes it a lot more interesting to focus on.
@@CmdrKing There are alot of communication issues between Edelgard and Hubert and I personalyl read him as very deeply traumatized by his inability to protect Edelgard from her torture, which he copes with by very obsessively dedicating himself to his personal duty to her. From a fandom perspective I feel like with those two in particular, its also just them having other ships which are much more popular, Ferdibert and Hubernie being very popular Hubert ships and Edelgard having her sapphic harem. I also feel like fans really just like the identity of the Black Eagles as the gay house, which is an organic reading due to its very strong found family vibes.
And when it comes to Edelgards sapphic aesthetic, Hopes also gave us the undeniable treat of her sacred weapon in that game being a Labrys xD And I will not complain about fandom perceiving her as mostly sapphic, firstly because I prefer wlw to begin with but also because its such a phenomena to see her carving such a strong wlw presence in the Fandom, when usually it remains fairly niche in most fandoms which are not heavily female and sapphic centric. The only time I personally saw it before was Korrasami.
I could almost see that but the one queer option for man feels like it doesn’t explore this at all
Shout out to Ike and his life partner Soren. We'd all be lucky to have a boyfriend that supportive.
I'm against Ike x Soren not because I'm homophobic, but because Soren doesn't deserve to be happy
I'm not against Ike x Soren, but what about Ikes catboy?
@@irunaonline7262 Ike has two hands
@actuallizard this is the first time I've ever had a video creator respond to a comment I made, and I 100% love that it was this comment to change that. I'm crying 😂
@ActionCow69 soren is based and relatable especially in fe9
I want to point out that sex change potions canonically exist in awakening, because Ricken offers one to Sully in their support, she rejects it.
However this means either ricken has exclusive/easy access to this potion for some reason or it's a super common potion and as a result sex changes are common.
Fe is actually a very pro trans series with a ton of rep its just that sex change potions are so normalized in the world that it never gets brought up
@@pandabanaan9208 I'd say it probably is out there. If changing biology would be that simple in-universe, then we should be getting Radiant Dawn levels of shapeshifter units every game instead of just the token Manakete.
ugh
@@ivanbackfromthecardshop8093 New headcannon : Every character from awakening except Sully, Ricken, and probably Tiki are trans.
What’s the context to give sully a male potion?
9:43 I've heard this called "mechanical bisexuality" that mechanically they're bi but in any given playthrough they're monosexual. verilybitchie has a great video from about 2 years ago on it
The "strong hinting" at queer pairings is something I hope just fully becomes a thing of the past. Holy based 56:35 having opportunity for debate on this topic can be so exhausting and while I'm sure there are reasons FE is reluctant to have openly 100% canonical queer pairings and characters (like protag being either gender and having every character as a romance option, though if this is the only reason that'd be real odd), it would absolutely be a massive leap in the right direction if fans could with certainty be able to identify with these characters without leaving room for any fingerwagging and "well, actually"s.
This was awesome to listen to!
The podcast's title dredged up a memory. I always parsed Lyon as having a repressed gay attraction to Ephraim. It's not hard to read his obsession with Ephraim's physicality and masculine confidence as attraction, even if Lyon tells himself it's just jealousy.
It's not necessarily unrequited considering how close their relationship was and how hard Ephraim takes it when he realizes Lyon cannot be saved. Maybe Lyon was so sure Ephraim didn't feel the same way that it led to the quiet resentment that drove him, at least in part, to do everything he did. Maybe just being honest about his feelings felt could've saved him.
I'm not saying this was an intended reading of the text, it's just funny how you don't have to try very hard to see it that way. It adds a certain color to Lyon dying in Ephraim's arms too.
There’s definitely something Hemingwayesque about Lyon lmfao
This was great to listen to, I almost only see FE LGBTQ discussion on tumblr.
I also missed a lot of the subtext in FE7 when I first played the game growing up, only to come back as an enby adult and realize these dudes were in love. I actually just finished a run of that game where Lucius crit one-shot Nergal thanks to his A supported boyfriend.
Lol how delusional are you
I've always read Ike as ace, myself. He just seemed so thoroughly oblivious to romance in general as well as completely unconcerned with it. Like it's just not on his radar at all, at least not as a thing he'd ever be interested in. Looking at his interactions with Aimee, I never felt like it was "I'm not interested in you" or even "I'm not interested in women" so much as "what the heck, this is a weird thing I completely don't care about." And with Soren, he just... cares a lot about people and their pain, and not at all for stupid social expectations. Relatable. He treats Soren as fully a person where no one else would. And Soren, who was never just unquestioningly accepted for who he was by anyone else, only feels able to exist around Ike. Which... yeah, if I found myself in that position, I absolutely would hang out pretty much exclusively with Ike, despite being very into women and not at all into men.
That said, gay Ike reading is also legit. The main thing that he _can't_ be argued to be is straight, TBH. I kinda like that it's definitively queer but a little ambiguous about what kind. Not everyone is going to show off their innermost selves. Though, it occurs to me, they're not mutually exclusive. Maybe Ike is homoromantic ace?
I've always kinda read Ike that way too. Though I do think he has more reasons to be weirded-out by Aimee, she's significantly older than him (I think) and comes on VERY strong.
Yeah he definitely asexual if not gay
@@BigKlingy didn’t think I would see you here armor man
ike totally reads as ace / demi romantic
I think 15:40 is a really good way to judge missable representation
I remember when I was in high school and played life is strange 1, I didn't even know you could choose to romance Chloe.
Love the first episode, I'm looking forward to see what else you cover in this format!
Good representation is certainly tricky to write, especially using the framework that Fire Emblem seems to use for its cast of characters. Everyone is supposed to have a distinct "gimmick", serving as a hook so players can instinctively know if they want to use/learn more about them, while also serving as a basis for gameplay tie-ins like class, stat spreads, and personal skills. Which seems reasonable, but we don't exactly want any identity pushed as a one-note gimmick. At best, it can feel ingenuine and fail to properly convey the importance of those lived experiences, and at worst it can be played for jokes like with the male characters that dress in traditionally feminine clothes.
I mean, this is kind of a cynical view on the quality of FE character writing, and I wouldn't necessarily say characters need to be super deep and complex to be good representation. In my mind, the critique is just like, have good, thoughtful writing? And make sure characters have something else going for them other than just that identity. Even if it's not much, like with Leon having an established overall confident personality and a fun group dynamic with the Pirate Throne squad.
Great first episode! Incredible name for the show!
FE (and the fandom) has a strained relationship to queerness despite so many fans being queer. I don’t feel like online conversations about queer rep in FE are often very nuanced, but you all really nailed it! I resonate a lot with the discussions of how queerness is never an intrinsic part of characters in the series. That frustration is what lead me to making FE-styled SRPGs with virtually entirely queer casts!
Great listen. Will be listening to future episodes.
What a pleasant surprise in my recommended! I already watched some of your videos here and there but this is a great episode to open the podcast on. Unexpected crossover with Alexis as well, i just listened to her as a guest character on the Super Idols Rpg podcast not too long ago!
I played the pre-awakening western released games when i was younger and hadn't really figured out any of my queer shit, bought three houses a while back and managed to play mostly blind. In a weird and roundabout way, the 3 houses OST is practically my egg cracking playlist and i inducted myself into the apparent legion of sapphic edelgard stans.
Maybe its just because im a prehistoric queer so this is my friend group, but Rodrigue has such gay widow vibes about Lambert, especially when he talks to his kids (Dimitri counts regardless of parental orientation) about the guy, that I was legitimately shocked when there's a mention of Felix's living, happily-married-to-rodrigue mom in three Hopes xD. Like my subconscious had fully assumed a surrogacy situation without any real shipping or input from myself until that moment.
For me queer readings of faerghus men always have me HC very suppressed closeted homosexual men obsessed with their straight appereances, in a very Brokeback Mountain kind of way.
Kind of late to the party but I really enjoyed this podcast. I did not know about Soren only having 2 support.
My favorite pair is Ike and Soren. I liked that you could feel the connection they had and how supportive they were to each other throughout their journey. Chrom and Robin Engage convo is a close second for just how funny it is though lol.
It's not FE, but I think the best representation of a queer character I've seen is Veronica in Fallout New Vegas. Fully fleshed out character, has many personality traits, and her trauma over losing a past (lesbian) lover is one of them
First of all I've been thinking about how interesting FE's diversity journey is (for better and for worse) a lot lately and am super stoked to see this podcast. Second of all, just want to shout out Cormag/Artur because it's a pairing I wouldn't have read into at all but then I saw fanart of it and realized just how hecking cute they would be oh my god
edit from the future: And third of all, I originally commented how happy I was with Rosado specifically and how much I appreciate him being a portrayal of a gender-noncomforming guy, and now having listened to the podcast I...still sort of think that, but also y'all definitely helped me see the downsides of the portrayal as well. It's funny, I remember recently thinking something exactly the same about Persona 4 in the "A gender-nonconforming portrayal can still be homophobic as hell" sense and somehow never made that leap to Rosado/Forrest/etc as actually being transphobic. I appreciate getting you three's take on that and I think I get where you're coming from, definitely a bit of a wake-up call that it's worth reevaluating how I feel about different instances of rep instead of desperately clinging to my first impression.
I think my favorite queer pairing has got to be Marianne and Hilda in 3h. Marianne is just so anxious and a mess but Hilda just loves and supports her anyway and their support is so cute and they’re so gay for each other.
Hilda is generally fascinating because while she isn't romanceable with Byleth ans has no outright romantic support line, there is just alot of hints and subtext about her being bisexual. And like always the star is the headcanons people formed about it and which developed their own life, like how Hilda not being recruitable and somewhat hostile towards Edelgard lead to this really great bitter exes headcanon betwen those two.
On your discussion about queerness in Fodlan, I think one of the interesting things of this game is that while we don't have any information about it in the actual game, the implications and general social structures we are presented with creat very clear implications, especially the game dares to take a very critical look at aristocratic and feudal structures, in some routes at least. I think its similar to misogyny and patriachy in Fodlan, while the game never openly states that the culture is patriachal and might discriminate against women, the implications of everything we learn about the characters lifes and society at large strongly implicate it, how for example with crested men there is always this hugh focus on their noble inheritance and expectations of martial prowess, while with women the focus is always how they can be sold off into marriage. We have Bernadetta being severely abused by her father to become a proper wife and Ingrid is another strong example, while with her male peers the emphasis of their crested duties is always towards their martial training and crests being the weapon that defends Faerghus from invaders, Dimitri being trained like crazy since childhood and all, with Ingrid the expectation of her father is always on finding a wealthy husband to her, with her knightly ambitions being framed and antithetical to the expectations of her family. And this very patriachal societal structures highly focussed on bloodlines and inheritance lead towards very cisheteronormative implications. There is a reason why there developed fairly strong comphet headcanons for Ingrid in particular.
With Rhea, I feel like the thing is how she probably wouldn't be personally homophobic and might take some queer people under her protection, but that she is ultimately very apathetic towards systemic issues in Fodlan at best and helps upholding them even if it is for the sake of keeping things under her control, even if she isn't personally supporting them. Racism is another issue, we learn how the church perpetuates a very xenophobic culture on large, while Rhea took Cyril and Shamir under her wing, despite them being foreigners.
While I do like Rosado and Forrest as characters and I’m fine that they are not trans, I empathize completely with feeling like trans identities just don’t exist ever in Fire Emblem outside of technicalities like the morphs. I’m also trans, and it feels disheartening whenever media I love just doesn’t acknowledge me. It would have great if in Fates or Engage if there was an actual trans character alongside those two, but alas it was not to be.
I head cannon them as trans men. That’s the big brain play
I think rosado should be crushed under an anvil
Great First Episode!
I know the boy-that-looks-girly character is Problematic, but I'm a really big fan of Lucius and specifically his pairing with Raven. RobinXChrom, LynxFlorina, Ike/Soren and last but not least, Me/Mordecai.
But I really do like how queer the series has been at least from 7 forward, but representation does have to get better, especially trans rep. I really wish Rosado was trans. I like Rosado, but he could have been MORE!
Anyway, cool podcast!
I really really really enjoyed this. I think it's important to hear views on art from people very different than you to increase your knowledge and enjoyment of it. Thank you!
An interesting theory I've heard about Shamir is that she's bisexual, but picky when it comes to women. This is supposed to explain why Catherine is the only woman she shows romantic interest in. Unfortunately, there is no way to proof it, but I do like this interpretation.
I really liked the video! Leon was the first queer character I ever saw in media, so I'm happy to see more people talking about Fire Emblem's representation and acknowledging how important it can be for some. Looking forward to the next episode!
Yo that's a bangin' first episode for the podcast! Looking forward to future episodes :)
I agree. My only feedback would be to include some images/clips for people who may not have played all the games or know about all the supports mentioned here.
Just starting this, but I refuse to believe Ike x Soren isn't canon. Little me felt something about them before I even realized I was bi, and as an adult playing through 9/10 again I still get that same feeling. It also helps that my type is booky nerdish guys and I always really felt attached to Ike as like the guy I wanted to be....
Very excited to see what y'all say ❤
i cannot stress enough just how much queer coding is in the tellius games, after learning how to read into the subtext, its actually staggering how well the games were coded. i firmly believe whoever wrote those games was very intent on including such colors in those games and doing them justice. unfortunately, intelligent systems has failed to coherently write queerness since then, so i can only assume the writer for tellius has long left the franchise.
Hey c'mon, Leon's great
@@franciscop9009 for the most part i like leon, but from an aesthetics standpoint he seems almost like a caricature of what intelligent systems thinks a gay man looks/acts like rather than genuine representation. its hard to take him seriously when hes blowing a kiss and winking at everything he kills on the battlefield. the fact that he was destined to just follow valbar(who gets married to a woman) around for the rest of his life and never experience being loved also doesnt sit well with me. and the fact that they just took his design and pasted it onto yuri in the very next game just came off to me as their inability to show different types of gay men.
all that being said though, i still appreciated leon's inclusion when i played sov for the first time at release. he was the first explicitly gay character(or as explicit as implicit can get) after fates and awakening so it felt like good progress was being made at the time
@@2CABALLEROS yeah I get that. also nah, he's properly explicit when he talks about his reason for having joined the army to have been him being "head over heels for this one guy" who died in battle
@@2CABALLEROS The Japanese developers in an April Fools prank (the teased Echoes demake) made some pretty questionable jokes about Leon too, like writing his name with the kanji for "man love".
Honestly, I think every protag going forward should be non-binary so there's no argument that they're queer regardless of romantic pairings. It'd also save IS on voice acting and art costs, and probably make the main character have a bit more weight to them since they're less interchangeable and avatar-y.
I know it's not officially possible or anything because it comes from a fic but there's a really cute ship of Severa and Lucina in Ylissean Odyssey and is forever my head cannon
I always hated the characters that are only bi if you as the main character wants to date them just because in my personal life I've had so many run ins with the trope of like "oh you'll find someone who will make you straight" attitude and I don't like giving credence to that even on the gay side of things
Obligatory shout-out to F!Byleth/Mercedes. I haven't even seen their S Support yet, admittedly, but I feel like no-one talks about it.
I still think we should have actual explicit same-sex pairings that don't involve the Avatar, at some point. 3H has a few paired endings like Sylvain/Felix and Dorothea/Manuela, but they tend to be ambiguous.
At the same time, I like Engage's focus on platonic paired endings (though most of it is a localization thing) as representation for other parts of the spectrum, e.g I headcanon Alear as Aromantic Pansexual.
Speaking of Engage, I actually like how Rosado (in the localization at least) has platonic paired endings with Male and Female Alear. This is just my opinion and I hope I'm being respectful, but here's how I see it: back in the 90's or even 2000's, you could NOT have a character like Rosado without heavily implying he was gay, he'd just be a walking joke about that. I like that we're allowed to have a character present like Rosado now and not have it tied to sex or romance. Rosado could be attracted to any gender, or he could be aro or ace, and that doesn't really matter. He's just himself. (At the same time I understand that it might suck for people who want to marry him)
I feel like f!Byleth/Mercedes kinda suffers under the fact that Mercedes in general ended up being somewhat overshadowed by Dorothea and Edelgard, which led to sapphic fandom strongly gravitating towards Black Eagles house.
@@shizachan8421 Yeah it's easy to get overshadowed by the first openly bisexual Lord. I guess it's more a me thing, because I don't like Edelgard or Dorothea (not a fan of most of the Eagles actually, except Hubert and Ferdinand), Sothis is no (although it's easy to interpret her S Support platonically) and Rhea is 50 shades of NOPE, so by proxy Mercedes is the only sapphic Byleth pairing I can enjoy... but even with all that aside, I really like Mercedes as a character and that's the main reason I wish the ship got more love.
@@BigKlingy Oh, why do you dislike Dorothea? With Edelgard I can get it because she ended up being so divisive, but I'm genuinly curious about what you dislike about Dorothea, because she is one of my personal favorites and who I would probably rate as the best written character in the game even above Edelgard.
I have to admit, I personally like Mercedes alot as well, but I think I haven't found a ship with her I would latch onto strongly. Edeleth and Shezleth are the only Byleth ships I personally like and I'm personally just not that much invested in Annette. And with Ingrid, because I played Crimson Flower first I just got hooked too strongly on Dorogrid.
Though I guess her being a Blue Lions character is probably also one of these issues Mercedes has when it comes to sapphic fandom appreciation, the BL fandom being very het and yaoi centric if you know what I mean.
@@shizachan8421 Dorothea is just... she judges people very harshly based on first impressions. I get that she has an excuse for it, but her attitude in supports was very off-putting for me. Mercedes I always felt handled her issues with nobles better... though that's again most of a "me" thing, I prefer using humour and satire to criticize parts of society you dislike, rather than outright hostility.
People kept telling me Dorothea/Ferdinand was good and it ended up being one of my least favourite support chains, which might also play into things. (For me it was just: "She hated him for years for superficial reasons, he perved on her.")
I'm aware not liking Dorothea is a massive hot take (she and Bernadetta are the only 3H playable characters I dislike from a writing standpoint, but Bernadetta's more obviously divisive in the fandom). It's nice to have someone interested in a (hopefully reasonable) discussion of my reasons why though, especially with how much "discourse" there is in the 3H fandom.
I thought Annette/Mercedes was decently popular? I guess it's the only major F/F BL pairing though. Only reason I'm not into it is because I ended up unexpectedly loving Sylvain/Mercedes.
And in case anyone asks: my issue with Bernadetta is her anxieties are constantly played for laughs despite existing due to horrible parental abuse and trauma, and I can't shake the fact they're also fetishized too. (Her Japanese S Support jokes about her worrying Byleth might SA her, yikes) She feels like a Fates character who somehow ended up in 3H's more grounded setting.
Coming here after my brother mentioned watching this before he told me about why he dislikes Rosado in a way that seemed lowkey transphobic and acephobic and definitely felt hurtful (I’m trans and ace). I’m not accusing anyone here of being any sort of -phobe, but I want context for how my brother went from just finding Rosado annoying to claiming that a gender non-conforming character is entirely and exclusively a sex object.
EDIT: My brother talked as if you were all in agreement that specifically Rosado’s presentation or characterization was transphobic. Clearly, that isn’t really the case. So now I know that the weird stuff he said isn’t a warped version of someone else’s take, it’s just his own thoughts. And I’ll probably have to confront him on it if he ever brings up Rosado again. That’s definitely going to suck…
While I will say the sapphic representation in 3 houses was better….the gay/achillian representation was absolute shit….your telling me as male Byleth I can’t romance Claud and my only romance options are a serial killer…and book worm that’s more interested in studying me as a science experiment than as a boyfriend….and fem boy and the other two s rank male supports end platonically….not to mention female Byleth had twice the amount of same sex romances
Engage having more laid back romances was kinda of a nice breather. I enjoyed ironically getting one of the only explicit romances options, the 11th hour old man character, pan romantic edition. Loved Lindon
But it kind of makes it hollow as there no reasoning behind it and because there is no paired endings it makes it useless as you dont even get an ending where they date anyone but the MC, not that different from a game that lets you choose your gender despite being written with a male character in mind
Kyza also uses they/them in the English versions of heroes
My personal reading is they’re bigender but I get other interpretations cause they’re weird in execution
I always read Kysha as trans in Radiant Dawn buy this works too.
It took you until the _end_ of the podcast to tell us that your special guest was THE CREATOR OF THIRSTY SWORD LESBIANS??
I remember being very disappointed in three houses for having a wealth of lesbian options and essentially no gay ones
I get when people say “it’s not like the sapphics are depicted perfectly though”. It’s true, but also, the males attracted to men were really screwed over and that felt BAD! There’s room for both, it just shows how lacking the team behind the game was when it came to representation. Maybe as time goes on we’ll get great rep for everyone in the lgbt community, but I don’t want to return to Three Houses style of gay romance at all if we’re gonna get 1 gay option at base game and pay for the other 2
9:43 This is why i scratch my head that some people think that Engage was better when all it did was just make it more hollow, at least in 3H even if some were limited because the developers choose to let them be with either Byleth it made it more meaningful, and of course the fact that there were a lot of pairings on the endings that did not involve Byleth at all
Oh boy, i remember when i only had ghast and mengs as UA-camr.
Fun to find out new friends
Ike/Soren, Lyn/Florina, Gerik/Joshua, Elincia/Lucia, Tibarn/Reyson, Chrom/Robin, Lissa/Maribelle, Corrin/Silas, Soleil/Nina, Caspar/Linhardt, Dorothea/Manuela, Yuri/Ashe, Edelgard/everyone are all my healthiest plausible ships.
Leon/Valbar/Kamui and Raven/Lucius deserve better. But I still have a soft spot for Kent/Sain because I read them in my first fic in the fandom.
The most funny thing about 3 Houses queer shipping is really how they tried to give you a self-insert MC yet Edelgard came out of it as the Harem Protagonist.
Favorite ship? I'm a fan of Ike x Ranulf myself, but I get Ike x Soren or the numerous Three Houses ships. Maybe that's just recency bias. On a similar note man I know it won't go anywhere but hear me out. Sasha x Kate in Tear Ring Saga. Or Ace Runan. That would be nice too.
As a gay man here, I think what I would want to see out of representation would be more queer options, queer options for non-avatar characters, more characters akin to Balthus or Hanneman being queer, and a non-binary option for future avatars. If IntSys or Tecmo-Koei must do a second gen again, I mean have the second gen be characters who look up to or worked closely with the first gen, and acquire their weapons and skills.
As it stands, I think representation in the series is pretty standard for the medium. Admittedly this is more a condemnation of the medium, but it's nearing a decade since Fates released and characters like Niles aren't much different than offerings in current games like Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3 these days. Grain of salt though given I like Linhardt.
I can't say I like Forrest or Rosado myself, but after Blue Period I'm just glad if the "femboy" isn't portrayed as someone doing it to pick up guys. There should be more "mascgirls" though. I get why there isn't given society's fetishism of the feminine, but it would be nice.
the sapphic council approves
Dedue/Dimitri is goated
I love their relationship but they are a bit too bound by trauma in to he healthy in my opinion.
Still it was what append in my blue lion playthrout.
Dudes are missing out on the Dimitri X Dedue ship.
Dmitri x Felix for the toxic yaoi fans out there
And Dedue x Ashe!
@@wheeeee115 dedue x ashe is probably my favourite blue lions ship
I love ALL ActualLizard videos!!!! ❤
woah there are are other queer people that play Fire Emblem thats so cool :0
Such a great discussion! What I want is some more explicit queer rep, like actual “I love you” and romantic exchanges. Less left up to interpretation!
The trans stuff is iffy so far, it seems they have little interest in depicting any gender issues deeply. But I’ll never say never… who knows, maybe we’ll get drag queen or trans man/woman rep someday
Also I’m not someone who would rather go backwards from avatarsexual characters, I feel like it’s better to have that than nothing at all. HOWEVER… I do think the queerness present in that should be more prominent!
I really want to see a Trans femme Pegasus Knight!
Pegasus Knight is a female exclusive class because in certain myths only women can ride Pegasus, or unicorns.
Having a Trans woman ride a Pegasus, while keeping the gender locked classes would be so cute.
I could also imagine her having a great support line if you included a bigoted character Like Shanon(I think that's his name, the archer in Path of radience)
The support would have the transphobe confront the idea that a Trans woman can ride a Pegasus, he would try to justify it, or disprove it , but in the end he has to accept it.
Isn't Rosado basically a drag queen........look at bros outfit and attidude
With the gendered specific outfits he literally gets the female one💀
Broke: Engage has no trans characters
Woke: Yunaka is a trans woman
I’ve always seen Clanne as a trans man.
I've only played Engage and 3Houses. So much of Firene is very gay to me. Chloe and Alfred jump out at me as very obviously LGBT. Seadall wears a binder, and I headcannon that as transmasc. Rosado, especially since they can wear the "girl" clothes strikes me as a trans woman that they weren't allowed to outright say is trans. So many of the Rosado supports are about looking inward and being true to yourself and admitting you're pretty and cute. As a trans girl that got me good.
In 3H, Dorothea is a queer character and Petra strikes me as a queer woman too. Edelgard has a lot of story beats I relate too that incline me to also view her as a trans woman
I just can't appreciate Rosado in a vacuum given how they exist as part of a pattern established by IntSys
Thoroughly enjoyed listening to this. It was super interesting from the perspective of a straight cis man. I'm hesitant to share my views as I don't feel I'm particularly learned about everything discussed but I think it's important for ideas to come together nevertheless.
I can't speak to how members of the LGBTQ community see things but I don't quite understand finding the femboys transphobic. You guys weren't parroting the take I've seen online that Rosado or Forrest SHOULD'VE been trans but still. Femboys are a thing, they exist separately from trans people, and they've become more popular in recent years even outside of FE. It's almost become a standard anime trope and there are even popular streamers who dress that way. I agree it's problematic when it's consistently played for laughs but I can't recall a single time in Engage they did that with Rosado. It's entirely possible it happened and I just don't remember it though. I don't know that them continuing to include femboys but not trans characters is necessarily an attack on them but I do agree it'd be good to have them properly represented with 2 or 3 characters.
I really like the term you used, Schrodinger's Bis. Got a good laugh out of me. On the one hand it's nice that any player can romance any character they want but I agree it feels like an afterthought that doesn't really count towards representation. As far as romance options go I think there should be some bi and strictly gay characters. Not a token one each like Fates, but a nice handful of choices would be nice.
I also think you're right about romance in Engage, take this with a grain of salt though since I could be misinformed. I've seen like you that there was more romance in the Japanese. I'm fairly certain the reason they made so much of it vague or entirely no existent in the localization is because of the characters ages. I think if you look at their internal ages in the code a lot of the characters range from 16-18 including Alear clocking in at 17. Treehouse might've been worried about writing romance with characters that young and younger in a few cases. Like I'm pretty sure Anna's original Japanese support was romantic oddly enough. The lack of paired endings bothered me as well. I'd prefer them be there but it won't make me skip a FE if they're not. At least not on their own.
TLDR, loved this and can't wait for the next episode. Very interesting topic that is deserving of close inspection.
Shoutouts to marty and dagdar
Yeah, this is hitting.
In FE's defense (not much of a defense though) the femboy thing is just kinda a thing in a lot of JP media (especially more recently), which is fine...
But, like you say, when it's a bit every single time and it's so divorced from queerness every single time, it comes across as very shitty.
Like if they even on occassion took the time to turn it into an actual conversation, which they have plenty of opportunity to do in support convos, that'd be fine.
Hell, they could even still be straight. Comparatively rare as they are, they do exist, but don't make the characters oblivious about it to the point of coming off as stupid.
I'm not trans, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I do agree that the Fire Emblem "femboy" trope is usually extremely transphobic, and if not its AT LEAST sexist. It really does suck, having actual trans characters in the series, or even just characters who look more masculine or feminine than is typically expected of their gender, without all those weird tropes, would be a breath of fresh air not only to the LGBTQ community, but also just the average player.
*However,* I would argue Rosado is the exception. He doesnt get the stupid "oh haha you look like a girl!" gag that every other feminine man in the series tends to boil down to, and hes just a guy who's confident in his presentation and just likes cute stuff. Hes one of my favorite characters in Engage because hes just cool. I get that a lot of people wanted him to be trans, and I think headcanon is cool, I just personally love Rosado the way he is.
On a final, less serious note, hell yeah, Lizard podcast
EDIT: I should add to this. Part of the reason I love Rosado being as simple as he is is because it honestly resonates with me a lot. I'm mostly a cis man, but I've found that I don't really fully identify with my assigned gender. Not that I'm trans, or even entirely non-binary, but rather that I simply dont find my gender to be a particularly defining feature of my identity. I feel like Rosado comes off the same way, it seems implied that he doesnt care that hes a man, not that he doesnt want to be one, but just that the label doesnt define him. They definitely could have done MORE with him, dont get me wrong, but I feel the same applies to MOST of Engage's cast; the game just wasnt trying to be anything too deep, and I think thats fair.
The thing with the femboy characters in Fire Emblem is that in terms of canon, they aren't TRYING to trick people or anything. They way they are treated by other characters and even sometimes by the games themselves might not be great, but the message is always along the lines of "what they are doing is fine and good, and you shouldn't think less of them for it." They might not always succeed in getting that across, but I THINK the games are telling you to listen to what the characters themselves are saying and treat them they way they want to be treated. Even at it's worst, I think it's mostly fine for this reason. The things wrong with it, if any, isn't what the game is trying to say, it's just a writing issue.
@@wriggletime1412 I think the MAIN issue is not that characters mistake them for women (this is realistic in a lot of cases, you can't always tell someone's gender just by looking at them), but more so that it's a repeated gag played for laughs constantly rather than ever shedding any light on the serious part of the subject
@@juicyjuustar121 Yeah, I would say that falls under writing issue
Stop being delusional
@@mysmallnoman 😜👻
I feel like if you make every character bi, it would also make ace character feel non existant
Rosado is such a weird case where in engage's sea of very one note characters who have a bit and stick diligently to it, if rosado was in a vaccum I'd probably have really liked his gimmick, but he isn't we keep having femboys who are as far as fe gender diversity goes, and while less heavily a joke, I dont like his personal skill being "confuse men around him".
Hell yeeeeee
I would honestly like the podcast if it did connect itself and thus advocates for drug use
Based
I think asking for lgbt representation that matches american sensibilities is reasonable, but I don't think demanding or expectingit is. You're setting yourself up for disappointment. Lgbt discourse is very different in Japan and our cultural understandings and standards arent inherently better than others. I would love more explicit representation that doesnt offend or demean the people they want to portray, but I honestly dont think they're capable of that. Its an iterative process and they will hopefully get better over time, but I would rather they keep trying and failing than decide they cant make an lgbt character that matches our standards and just not trying anymore as a result.
say something nice about Soleil challenge!
21:28 gdi don’t diss my wife i stg she’s never gonna escape this 😭😭😭 idc what the japanese game says we didn’t play the japanese version, we played international and she bisexual 😡😤 the international support version is wholesome af it’s cute! and m!corrin is cute as hell, he can get an S support with Soleil because he’s adorable and sweet and a wonderful idealist. the line “I like men just fine” isn’t bullshit and if you think it is, guess what, i can call you biphobic! get off your high horse!
Calling a lesbian biphobic for pointing out pretty blatant and obvious homophobia just because you don't wanna feel bad about your waifu is pretty shitty actually. You should feel bad, but you should also work on some media literacy while you're at it. As Alexis and Lizard pointed out, Soleil cannot S-rank with any women! A decidedly, obviously sapphic character has no S-ranks with women!! She's not bi, she's a victim of fantasy conversion therapy, badly whitewashed for the international release.
4/20. Ugh.
What have i just watched?🤣