I shared this video with my husband and adult children. The important part for me is understanding other church members better. I feel less frustration and conflict when I can recognize why they may say things in lessons, talks, etc. that seem to conflict with how I see the gospel. Giving these world views and core values a name and seeing how they influence someone's point of view is very helpful.
Jeff was a classmate of mine many years ago. His epistemic humility, thoughtful candor, and pursuit of Truth impacted me then and now. I’m grateful for his willingness to share his thoughts and testimony.
My wife and I went to school with the Thaynes. I always knew he was going to do good work in his life. Thank you for your contributions to helping members struggling in the church.
Yes yes yes!! My life is hard BECAUSE I choose the gospel and it looks like it’s “not working.” I grieve a lot over things I wish I could have and had thought I would have if I chose the gospel path. I have friends that continue to try and put a bow on it and project whatever happy endings they think I will have in order to feel more comfortable with the mess. I know that none of those things are promised me and that the purpose is me becoming what god knows I can become. Great conversation.
I’ve known Jeff since my first year at BYU in the mid 2000s. Every single conversation I’ve ever had with him has had a minimum of one concept in it that my mind chewed on for months or even years afterward. I can confidently say that he’s the smartest person I’ve ever personally met.
Thank you for sharing this. It really gets to the heart of the true purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the real purpose of mortality, with all its challenges and trials, as well as joy.
I'm.a member of nearly 60 years and it has not been outside influences that have weakened my faith, but those within the church that have a different political view then i do, that have attracted me for voting my conscience. It took me going to my sweet Bishop, to help me know, i was doing knowing wrong, that my political views, when different from most mainstream LDS, have nothing to do with the way i live my life in the gospel and following the Savior.
YES!! I'm a long time fan of Jeffrey's work. We desperately need to talk more about worldviews in the Church. I was unable to understand my own faith crisis until I recognized the waters i was swimming in. Great interview
The spirit has been teaching me this. I had a self centered main character feel in which I really kind of had the fulfillment point of view and I had trouble sorrowing for sins and doing the things that hurt you emotionally, it is selfish and not right. Indeed these are all half truths. Be yourself gets in the way of repentance. I am a deep thinker and I let some of those purposes and worldviews come to the top and I tried to reconcile them in my mind and I wasn’t always able to do this, ended up feeling a bit self righteous doing things that weren’t that good and didn’t see as much the value in doing things that were right.
The more I come to understand our Father and his Son, the more I think I’m closer to resembling a bird than I do them. I’m vastly different than they are however I trust that becoming like them is worth the effort.
This is the third time I am watching this video! It has really helped me understand-that I have brought into these gospel worldviews and forgotten the real reason why I joined the Church. It was to become a "new creature in Christ". Thank You so much for your channel!
I really resonate with what is said here. This is why I liked the pearl of great price, you must want eternal life more than anything or you can’t get it, really. As was said in general conference: it’s better to be Christlike than authentic. So many things I see members of the church do that arent really in line with what the scriptures say, and I’m always trying to do as they say and teach others to. Great video!
I just graduated from BYU-I and took an online class created by Dr. Thayne. I never had a personal relationship with him, but I appreciate his insight, and much of what he shared were common themes shared by much of the faculty within the psych department at BYU-I.
This conversation adeptly describes some hidden inner desire for good that I knew was there but had never really identified or described before. what a different perspective than the world!
@@jeffreythayne296 Your meekness allowed for those thoughtful questions. This new perspective has given me so much to think about. Especially your perspective towards the end when you talked about God giving us time to align our desires with his.
important topic! good job. i like the Jesus saying are you following me to be filled (more fish bread) like after the feeding of the 5000. motives ! crucial. its about being clean to face God. that is the story.
Very good, as always, Brother Thayne. I happen to be preparing a Family Home Evening lesson for TONIGHT based on your Worldview Apologetics speech and this video couldn't be better timed! Thanks!
I could watch this every day for a month and still be learning. So great. I’m an English major so even just the /way/ he talked about it, using archetypes, really spoke to me. Wow. Saved for future watches. Wow!
The element not mentioned is not just the prosperity gospel but the unmet or unrealized patriarchal blessings….. no matter how obedient or living the gospel we are. I don’t think we teach enough how more often than not, the majority of patriarchal blessings will not be realized in this life. This is another source of disappointment comes from as well.
I think that depends on the patriarchal blessing. Mine speaks a lot about what I will accomplish in this world and what I will be called to do in this life. The only time it mentions anything about the next life is being resurrected in the morning of the first resurrection.
Good content... one major thing left out is the fact that the zietgiest of feminism is practiced at a hyper level among LDS wemon in the selection of a spouse. Men are already deemed as not enough among most wemon; however, in the LDS world, the zietgiest of feminisim takes the phsuedo doctrine of prosperity and worthiness to a whole other level.
🤔 have for years thought that the authentic me is the most authentic disciple but I can see a danger in making myself into a disciple of Christ in my own image.
I love the excellent insights. However, I would take it one step further. The reason Christ wants us to forget ourselves and pattern our lives after Him isn’t because of His ego. It’s actually for us. He knows what is best for us more than we do. So when we follow Christ’s example, we, paradoxically, actually are doing what’s in our own best interest. It may be a harder road, but it’s a higher road and leads to greater happiness that we cannot always see. So, I would say Christ does want us to pursue our own interests, but as we are not a great judge of what that is, He asks us to trust Him and follow the example He set. And what is in our own best interest is also in others best interest too. I would say the number one thing that brings the greatest happiness is love from others. When others truly love you and you love them, there is nothing greater. So, by sacrificing some of your comforts for another’s benefit increases your love for them and their love for you, thus making the sacrifice worth the cost, and better for you than that comfort you gave up.
Prophets preach that if we keep xyz commandment, that we will receive xyz blessing, Including, "wear the garments and you will be protected from temptation." "do family history and you will receive more protection from the adversary", read your scriptures and get more protections, give your self in service and receive more protections...yet how many people do all these things and still fall into serious temptation. It is the words of prophets that give us this view that we should receive the things they promise. And all the other promises that if we keep xyz commandment that we will have peace, joy, guidance and companionship with the spirt, magnified capacity, health, wisdom, light and many other things that often don't come in spite of keeping the commandments. Unlike what Bro Thayne said, these blessing have been promised, at least they have been by prophets.
@@southwestrunner6384 I'm very active and yes, questioning if it is worth me believing. Your response doesn't help me want to believe... but is still insignificant. Yesterday I fasted to have stronger faith or to be able to make sense of the inconsistencies I see. Then I saw this video and thought, wow it could be an answer to my fast. Though it wasn't, I like that he says it is about us growing closer to God in the struggle of life. I am also saying the truth as to why we think we should be blessed. It is because we believe the prophets and scriptures. And the prophets and scriptures and people at the pulpit in my ward yesterday have made promises and testified that if we do xyz, xyz will happen. Promises bro Thayne is not addressing and promises that are not fulfilled in the lives of many active believing members. They are sitting next to you in church, trying the best they know how but still not getting what they have been promised.
@@_SeeIt - Thayne literally explained why “we don’t get what we are looking for” I’m sorry if you felt attacked I’ve been a faithful member my entire life- I have “done everything you are “supposed to do” over my 45 years in the church In the past 3 years we have Lost a 7 year old granddaughter to an accident in our home Had a son in law committed to a mental institution- and the result of his mental illness was a ugly divorce with my daughter- the same one who lost her child Lots of career disappointment and financial struggle Infidelity with my other daughters husband My return missionary son coming home and leaving the church And the death of my 21 year old son I list these things to let you know that we all suffer- and the “blessings” don’t aways flow our way As Jeffrey R Holland said: “Some blessings come soon, some come late, and some don't come until heaven; but for those who embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, they come" Everything is a choice- I could choose to question God- and sometimes you do I could choose to question the church- and sometimes you do But…my life hasn’t been full of blessings from “doing the right thing” Until I chose to look for the blessings instead of faults with God or organizations The blessings ARE always there even in dark moments I promise they are It really does depend on your philosophy of how you see the world/gospel So I believe this video helps us to understand this- so we hurt less when we are suffering I choose faith, hope and turning to God no matter what happens- because I know God is real and is faithful No matter how hard our lives are- I choose faith over finding fault
@ - Bro Thayne literally answered your post of why “people aren’t getting the “blessings” they want Living the gospel for “blessings” is a flawed way to see the gospel as Thayne points out What were the “blessings” that Jesus got from living the gospel while on this earth? Mocked, spit on, humiliated, ignored, beaten, and ultimately tortured and killed- and yet, we who are so much less than Christ- expect amazing blessings that the Son of God never had on this earth? Why is that? It’s hard to say- but I believe Thayne nails it here On a personal level in the last theee years I have: Had a 7 month old granddaughter die in an accident in my home Had a son-in-law be committed to a mental hospital, and suffer extreme mental illness that resulted in a divorce for my daughter (same one who lost her child) Have a grandson with severe special needs that needs constant supervision and medical care (same daughter) Suffered job losses and severe financial difficulties Lost a 21 year son to a tragic accident Had my surviving son return from a mission, and go inactive I list these- because in the last 40 years- I’ve “done everything I’m supposed to do” But we have had a hard life, we appear to “not be blessed” Almost cursed… But, again- it’s how you view the word I don’t do what I do in the church to “get blessings” I do it because I have a testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ- and from studying the life of Jesus Christ and other Saints I KNOW the path is hard and rough, if Jesus never had earthly blessings - who am I to claim them? I love what Jeffrey R Hollander says on this subject: “Some blessings come soon, some come late, and some don't come until heaven; but for those who embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, they come” This has kept me going through my dark times I can pick the church apart- or I can exercise faith- it’s a choice And I can honestly say that the blessings are always there- especially when we think they are not We just have to be humble, and know that the blessings NEVER are what we think they are God is faithful He is aware of you We just need to be aware of him- and not focused on what we don’t have or the flaws of the church It’s a choice - a window of how we see the world Faith or fault? It’s our choice
@@southwestrunner6384 Thank you for your response. I'm glad you find peace and surety even in hardship. And I agree it is a good way to approach hardship or unfulfilled hopes and expectations. I never said I or any others are living "for blessing" I've lived because i believe it is what I can do to show love for God. But we have been told by prophets we have the right to expect blessings with obedience. I like what Thayne suggests we do. What i don't agree with him saying it is because of world views we take on. World views will have influence. But the biggest influence is because we are told by prophets that we will be blessed with xyz if we do xyz. I've used the quotes hundreds times on all gospel topics when i've taught or given talks. Pick a gospel topic and i'll find a quote saying how we will be blessed when we do that thing. So, we believe them and we expect that what they say is true. This is why we expect that we will be blessed. They are always promised. Thayne does not address the biggest reasons his friend he referenced believed they should be more blessed. The promises of prophets, bishops, blessing givers, testimonies and scriptures. It isn't the outside world view that makes members think this way. It is the internal practices and teachings of the church that create the world view for it's members. Understanding flaws helps us address them. Understanding concerns and all negative experiences allow us to succor.
An interesting interview and good to see someone show how culture influences belief. I’m not sure it stands up to scriptural scrutiny though in an LDS context. Promises of blessings for obedience, comfort and spiritual fulfilment and being true to one’s divine identity saturate the scriptures and teachings of church leaders today. It also seems like a cold argument to suggest that a life of misery is okay so long as we are true to our covenants. A stoic idea but not terribly appealing in any way. Could also be construed as gaslighting (i.e. the problem isn’t god, others or church but the story in my head).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate you bringing up these points. You're right, scriptures do emphasize blessings, comfort, and fulfillment, and Jesus is a powerful example of facing hardship while holding to purpose and peace. Our intent wasn’t to downplay real struggles but to show how faith and resilience can coexist. Sometimes seeing our experiences through His example can help us find peace, even in tough times. Really value your perspective- it’s an important part of this conversation.
“Look, little currant bush, I am the gardener here, and I know what I want you to be. I didn’t intend you to be a fruit tree or a shade tree. I want you to be a currant bush, and someday, little currant bush, when you are laden with fruit, you are going to say, ‘Thank you, Mr. Gardener, for loving me enough to cut me down. Thank you, Mr. Gardener.’”
Remember, God sees the end from the beginning. We can bare seeing a toddler fall repeatedly as they learn to walk or climb, because we know they will finally walk and that they need to to progress in other ways. Yes, and we are sad if they beak a leg or are brused, but still know that will heal and they will learn from it. But if they refuse to get up andvtry again, have a tantrum or hit there sibling for being in their way, we sorrow there especially.
Hmmm... I think some of his points need refinement when expressing them, because sometimes you need to step out of the mold in search for truth, I mean our church would not be what it is if we did not step away from the mold. Jesus was the same, that example he used of "October sky," If those kids did not pursue rockets instead of mining for coal, Nasa would not be what it is today. I get we need to change, repentance is chance, but sometimes understanding who we are as individuals is a must in order for us to realize we need to change in order to be more like Christ.
Thanks for sharing this perspective-I really appreciate the thought you put into it. I get what you’re saying about stepping outside the mold; Jesus is the perfect example of that, and it’s a solid reminder of how growth and discovery can bring us closer to truth. Love the October Sky example too-sometimes understanding ourselves better helps us see where we need to grow. Jeff made a good point too about how some narratives can shape how we see the Gospel, often without us even realizing it. There’s a lot to think about here, and I’m grateful for the chance to dig into these different perspectives. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
I think my comment was deleted. Heaven forbid we question anything! It was exactly that "never question anything" that led me to complete misery. I was just trying to help people who are miserable like I was. The church, my faith, it really hurt me. I'm not anti-church. I'm not. For some people, it works for them, and that's great. But, it does not work for everyone, and telling people that it does is so harmful.
Julie, thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I know it’s not always easy to talk about difficult experiences, especially ones that feel so personal. I'm sorry to hear about the pain you’ve been through-sounds like you've been through a lot. I appreciate you bringing this up. If there’s anything specific you’d want to discuss, please feel free to share. I’d love for this space to be one where all perspectives are respected, and people feel supported. Wishing you peace as you continue moving forward. And sometimes, UA-cam filters comments automatically based on keywords, but please know you’re welcome to share your thoughts here. - Stephen
@@LetsGetRealSJ I appreciate the kind reply. I did watch the entire video, and I think it made me a little emotional. I think my response came from a place of hurt, and not really a rational or kind place. A year ago, I would have ate all of this up and made myself so miserable doing so. Thinking about the video later, in a more calm and rational place, I realized that nothing Dr. Thayne said was necessarily wrong or harmful. Talking about worldviews and how they may not align with God's views make a lot of sense. And, it was probably really helpful to quite a few people. I think my response was more of a response to my past self. Truth is, I don't know if the church is true or not. I spent 30 years believing in it full-heartedly. But, either way, I know that God needed me to take a step away, maybe just for a little while. With faith, there is hope, and I needed to hit rock bottom. Really give into my despair to start to untangle the mess I spent years getting myself into. And, that's where I'm at right now. Thank-you again, Stephen. Have a beautiful day!
@juliemccann8481 I think sometimes, similar to swimming, we need to sink low enough to reach the bottom so we can kick off and return to the surface. I hope you'll be able to do so and find the strength to keep reaching out for Our Heavenly Father and Our Savior.
As an English teacher, and one who teaches others how to speak, this man is rambling. He has no direction. He has no thesis. Why is Thayne on this podcast?
Maybe some people who leave the church do so because they had misplaced expectations or simply didn’t want to change but I think a much more common reason is that they valued truth and discovered things about the church that convinced them that the truth claims of the church just don’t hold up well to scrutiny.
The Church's main truth claim is that truth is revealed by God through the Holy Ghost. I don't know anybody who really has a problem with that perspective. Many people get hung up on the didactic manner in which Church Histroy was presented in the early 20th century. Yet we all know that that was the main narrative style all institutions used to present information in that Era-look and any school textbook or any denomination's presentation of their doctorine and history. Everything was whitewashed. Do people really expect members in the past to present information against the norms of their day to please the wims of some future generation? Now that modern society has decided every possible view, especially every minority, should be thrust in the spotlight, people are upset with how things were presented in the past. I realized long ago that I had no right to tell God under what circumstances I would be willing to accept his truth. My standard is not God's standard. If God wants to use someone I despise or think is a criminal, that is his prerogative. If I am led by the Holy Ghost to know deep within my soul that something is true, then I will accept that no matter how unpopular that idea may be. If someone feels called to leave the church because it makes them uncomfortable, then I wish them the best. I think there is a hierarchy of truth with historical truths at the very bottom below moral truths and spiritual truths. In the end, I guess it's the way I act that is most important to me, and history has very little influence in how I oriented my behavior. Moral truths and spiritual truth affect how I think about others and how I want to treat and respond to them.
It’s a fallacy to think you can “prove” spiritual things If everything can be proven - there is no need for faith Faith is essential in religion, the modern philosophy is : “it can’t be proven- therefore I don’t believe it’s true” or “I don’t understand it (the mind/will of God” therefore I don’t believe it If you can’t excercise faith- you won’t believe ANY religion
@@southwestrunner6384I didn’t say anything about absolute proof. I’m talking about evidence and how certain specific truth claims don’t seem to hold up well to scrutiny. And for many people that leads them to lose trust in those claims and ultimately leave the church, because they care deeply about truth. Faith is important to a certain degree, but faith in the face of countering evidence is not a good approach if one cares about truth. Devout Muslims, JWs, and Scientologists all have faith. That’s clearly not the key to finding truth.
@@KW-qx5boMy concerns are not merely the whitewashed nature of the church’s historical narrative, but the specifics of certain truth claims and how the evidence conflicts with those claims. As a result I think certain key truth claims are simply false, thereby leading me to honestly conclude that the church is not of genuine divine origin. Regarding the witness of the Holy Ghost, I just don’t find that to be a particularly reliable mechanism for identifying objective truth. Many religious folks from many different and conflicting religious traditions make similar claims to justify the certainty in their beliefs.
Faith IS the key to finding truth You won’t find ANY truth in spiritual things without Faith If you wait for “all things to “line up” - you will be an atheist No religion can “prove” its existence I care deeply about truth- but I also know I don’t have the mind of God, nor do I understand the will of God- I must excercise faith A Virgin birth cannot be proven, and doesn’t line up with any “truth” or science that I know of- and yet no one questions it in Christianity You have to have faith
Polygamy. It’s always polygamy. I don’t understand why the church has to be so dishonest about it. Joseph said he was innocent of it and condemned it in every way possible. It’s the reason why people leave because they can’t handle the founder being a pedophile and adulterer. And then there are more people who leave because they can’t handle that the church dishonestly convey Joseph to be a polygamist. Just get rid of it completely and everyone wins.
Every LDS member needs to watch this video ASAP!
For those who agree with this comment, what part made it important for you to share?
I shared this video with my husband and adult children. The important part for me is understanding other church members better. I feel less frustration and conflict when I can recognize why they may say things in lessons, talks, etc. that seem to conflict with how I see the gospel. Giving these world views and core values a name and seeing how they influence someone's point of view is very helpful.
@@beckygriffioen3361 True.
Jeff was a classmate of mine many years ago. His epistemic humility, thoughtful candor, and pursuit of Truth impacted me then and now. I’m grateful for his willingness to share his thoughts and testimony.
My wife and I went to school with the Thaynes. I always knew he was going to do good work in his life. Thank you for your contributions to helping members struggling in the church.
Yes yes yes!! My life is hard BECAUSE I choose the gospel and it looks like it’s “not working.” I grieve a lot over things I wish I could have and had thought I would have if I chose the gospel path. I have friends that continue to try and put a bow on it and project whatever happy endings they think I will have in order to feel more comfortable with the mess. I know that none of those things are promised me and that the purpose is me becoming what god knows I can become. Great conversation.
Following the gospel of Jesus Christ is not insurance against pain. It is a resource in the event of pain.
I’ve known Jeff since my first year at BYU in the mid 2000s. Every single conversation I’ve ever had with him has had a minimum of one concept in it that my mind chewed on for months or even years afterward. I can confidently say that he’s the smartest person I’ve ever personally met.
Thank you for sharing this. It really gets to the heart of the true purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the real purpose of mortality, with all its challenges and trials, as well as joy.
This really spoke to my heart. I could feel the spirit. Thank you for having Brother Thayne on. He is a spiritual poet.
I wish you could have been in the room when we recorded this. It was powerful.
I'm.a member of nearly 60 years and it has not been outside influences that have weakened my faith, but those within the church that have a different political view then i do, that have attracted me for voting my conscience. It took me going to my sweet Bishop, to help me know, i was doing knowing wrong, that my political views, when different from most mainstream LDS, have nothing to do with the way i live my life in the gospel and following the Savior.
YES!! I'm a long time fan of Jeffrey's work. We desperately need to talk more about worldviews in the Church.
I was unable to understand my own faith crisis until I recognized the waters i was swimming in.
Great interview
Excellent. My thoughts exactly
The spirit has been teaching me this. I had a self centered main character feel in which I really kind of had the fulfillment point of view and I had trouble sorrowing for sins and doing the things that hurt you emotionally, it is selfish and not right. Indeed these are all half truths. Be yourself gets in the way of repentance. I am a deep thinker and I let some of those purposes and worldviews come to the top and I tried to reconcile them in my mind and I wasn’t always able to do this, ended up feeling a bit self righteous doing things that weren’t that good and didn’t see as much the value in doing things that were right.
Wow! I will have to listen to this again. It is really speaking to me. It's giving me a new perspective about the challenges I've been facing .
What I loved getting to know Jeffery is that he is not only deep but he is also very meek.
The more I come to understand our Father and his Son, the more I think I’m closer to resembling a bird than I do them. I’m vastly different than they are however I trust that becoming like them is worth the effort.
This is the third time I am watching this video! It has really helped me understand-that I have brought into these gospel worldviews and forgotten the real reason why I joined the Church. It was to become a "new creature in Christ". Thank You so much for your channel!
“My ways are NOT your ways…..” “I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord…”
I really resonate with what is said here. This is why I liked the pearl of great price, you must want eternal life more than anything or you can’t get it, really. As was said in general conference: it’s better to be Christlike than authentic. So many things I see members of the church do that arent really in line with what the scriptures say, and I’m always trying to do as they say and teach others to. Great video!
I hope that being Christ like becomes my authentic true self.
Great conversation. Thayne is a treasure.
I see what you did there;)
I just graduated from BYU-I and took an online class created by Dr. Thayne. I never had a personal relationship with him, but I appreciate his insight, and much of what he shared were common themes shared by much of the faculty within the psych department at BYU-I.
This conversation adeptly describes some hidden inner desire for good that I knew was there but had never really identified or described before. what a different perspective than the world!
This conversation unlocked a lot for me too.
One of my favorite Latter-day Saint online voices. Great interview!
I went to high school with Jeffery Thayne. He was just as impressive as a youth as he is now. Great guy!
I love this discussion! I hope everyone sees it.
Love Jeff’s work and this conversation 🙏🏼
Jones is a great interviewer! I’m glad I found his podcast.
Better than you know! They cut most of his thoughtful questions and prompting, so you don't get to see his full brilliance on display.
I'm glad you found it too. We filmed two topics that day, separate but related. Be on the look out.
@@jeffreythayne296 Your meekness allowed for those thoughtful questions. This new perspective has given me so much to think about. Especially your perspective towards the end when you talked about God giving us time to align our desires with his.
Wonderful articulation about maintaining Christ as the center of our life and covenants.
important topic! good job. i like the Jesus saying are you following me to be filled (more fish bread) like after the feeding of the 5000. motives ! crucial. its about being clean to face God. that is the story.
I just wish it was longer!
I really love thinking about worldviews, this is very important for us to examine in ourselves.
Very good, as always, Brother Thayne. I happen to be preparing a Family Home Evening lesson for TONIGHT based on your Worldview Apologetics speech and this video couldn't be better timed! Thanks!
I could watch this every day for a month and still be learning. So great. I’m an English major so even just the /way/ he talked about it, using archetypes, really spoke to me. Wow. Saved for future watches. Wow!
The element not mentioned is not just the prosperity gospel but the unmet or unrealized patriarchal blessings….. no matter how obedient or living the gospel we are. I don’t think we teach enough how more often than not, the majority of patriarchal blessings will not be realized in this life. This is another source of disappointment comes from as well.
I think that depends on the patriarchal blessing. Mine speaks a lot about what I will accomplish in this world and what I will be called to do in this life. The only time it mentions anything about the next life is being resurrected in the morning of the first resurrection.
Good content... one major thing left out is the fact that the zietgiest of feminism is practiced at a hyper level among LDS wemon in the selection of a spouse. Men are already deemed as not enough among most wemon; however, in the LDS world, the zietgiest of feminisim takes the phsuedo doctrine of prosperity and worthiness to a whole other level.
This one opened my eyes, truly. This presentation could be life changing if we stay focused on the ideas given
That intro was 🔥. And you followed it up with a very interesting discussion! Thanks for tackling these topics.
This needs exponentially more views
OH MY GOSH I TOOK A CLASS AT BYUI FROM BROTHER THAYNE AND DID RESEARCH FOR THESE WORLDVIEWS
Love this conversation!
Beautiful episode! 🙌
Great discussion!
Amazing. This hit hard.
Love the intro already.
Love it, thank you!
I love your intros!!
Good show
🤔 have for years thought that the authentic me is the most authentic disciple but I can see a danger in making myself into a disciple of Christ in my own image.
This shiz deep 💪🏼
I love the excellent insights. However, I would take it one step further. The reason Christ wants us to forget ourselves and pattern our lives after Him isn’t because of His ego. It’s actually for us. He knows what is best for us more than we do. So when we follow Christ’s example, we, paradoxically, actually are doing what’s in our own best interest. It may be a harder road, but it’s a higher road and leads to greater happiness that we cannot always see. So, I would say Christ does want us to pursue our own interests, but as we are not a great judge of what that is, He asks us to trust Him and follow the example He set.
And what is in our own best interest is also in others best interest too. I would say the number one thing that brings the greatest happiness is love from others. When others truly love you and you love them, there is nothing greater. So, by sacrificing some of your comforts for another’s benefit increases your love for them and their love for you, thus making the sacrifice worth the cost, and better for you than that comfort you gave up.
Cars follows the archetypal hero narrative -- Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces narrative. It is the most common narrative in Hollywood.
😊
Top notch !!!!
👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
♥️💛💚💜❤🔥
Transformation does not occur except through suffering meekly. Jesus suffered not just in Gethsemane and on the Cross but throughout his mortal life.
Prophets preach that if we keep xyz commandment, that we will receive xyz blessing, Including, "wear the garments and you will be protected from temptation." "do family history and you will receive more protection from the adversary", read your scriptures and get more protections, give your self in service and receive more protections...yet how many people do all these things and still fall into serious temptation. It is the words of prophets that give us this view that we should receive the things they promise.
And all the other promises that if we keep xyz commandment that we will have peace, joy, guidance and companionship with the spirt, magnified capacity, health, wisdom, light and many other things that often don't come in spite of keeping the commandments.
Unlike what Bro Thayne said, these blessing have been promised, at least they have been by prophets.
Ok, we get it- you are disaffected with/from the church
Fine
Why come on here to complain about something you don’t believe in?
@@southwestrunner6384 I'm very active and yes, questioning if it is worth me believing. Your response doesn't help me want to believe... but is still insignificant. Yesterday I fasted to have stronger faith or to be able to make sense of the inconsistencies I see. Then I saw this video and thought, wow it could be an answer to my fast. Though it wasn't, I like that he says it is about us growing closer to God in the struggle of life.
I am also saying the truth as to why we think we should be blessed. It is because we believe the prophets and scriptures. And the prophets and scriptures and people at the pulpit in my ward yesterday have made promises and testified that if we do xyz, xyz will happen. Promises bro Thayne is not addressing and promises that are not fulfilled in the lives of many active believing members. They are sitting next to you in church, trying the best they know how but still not getting what they have been promised.
@@_SeeIt - Thayne literally explained why “we don’t get what we are looking for”
I’m sorry if you felt attacked
I’ve been a faithful member my entire life- I have “done everything you are “supposed to do” over my 45 years in the church
In the past 3 years we have
Lost a 7 year old granddaughter to an accident in our home
Had a son in law committed to a mental institution- and the result of his mental illness was a ugly divorce with my daughter- the same one who lost her child
Lots of career disappointment and financial struggle
Infidelity with my other daughters husband
My return missionary son coming home and leaving the church
And the death of my 21 year old son
I list these things to let you know that we all suffer- and the “blessings” don’t aways flow our way
As Jeffrey R Holland said:
“Some blessings come soon, some come late, and some don't come until heaven; but for those who embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, they come"
Everything is a choice- I could choose to question God- and sometimes you do
I could choose to question the church- and sometimes you do
But…my life hasn’t been full of blessings from “doing the right thing”
Until I chose to look for the blessings instead of faults with God or organizations
The blessings ARE always there even in dark moments
I promise they are
It really does depend on your philosophy of how you see the world/gospel
So I believe this video helps us to understand this- so we hurt less when we are suffering
I choose faith, hope and turning to God no matter what happens- because I know God is real and is faithful
No matter how hard our lives are- I choose faith over finding fault
@ - Bro Thayne literally answered your post of why “people aren’t getting the “blessings” they want
Living the gospel for “blessings” is a flawed way to see the gospel as Thayne points out
What were the “blessings” that Jesus got from living the gospel while on this earth? Mocked, spit on, humiliated, ignored, beaten, and ultimately tortured and killed- and yet, we who are so much less than Christ- expect amazing blessings that the Son of God never had on this earth?
Why is that?
It’s hard to say- but I believe Thayne nails it here
On a personal level in the last theee years I have:
Had a 7 month old granddaughter die in an accident in my home
Had a son-in-law be committed to a mental hospital, and suffer extreme mental illness that resulted in a divorce for my daughter (same one who lost her child)
Have a grandson with severe special needs that needs constant supervision and medical care (same daughter)
Suffered job losses and severe financial difficulties
Lost a 21 year son to a tragic accident
Had my surviving son return from a mission, and go inactive
I list these- because in the last 40 years- I’ve “done everything I’m supposed to do”
But we have had a hard life, we appear to “not be blessed”
Almost cursed…
But, again- it’s how you view the word
I don’t do what I do in the church to “get blessings” I do it because I have a testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ- and from studying the life of Jesus Christ and other Saints I KNOW the path is hard and rough, if Jesus never had earthly blessings - who am I to claim them?
I love what Jeffrey R Hollander says on this subject:
“Some blessings come soon, some come late, and some don't come until heaven; but for those who embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, they come”
This has kept me going through my dark times
I can pick the church apart- or I can exercise faith- it’s a choice
And I can honestly say that the blessings are always there- especially when we think they are not
We just have to be humble, and know that the blessings NEVER are what we think they are
God is faithful
He is aware of you
We just need to be aware of him- and not focused on what we don’t have or the flaws of the church
It’s a choice - a window of how we see the world
Faith or fault?
It’s our choice
@@southwestrunner6384 Thank you for your response. I'm glad you find peace and surety even in hardship. And I agree it is a good way to approach hardship or unfulfilled hopes and expectations.
I never said I or any others are living "for blessing" I've lived because i believe it is what I can do to show love for God. But we have been told by prophets we have the right to expect blessings with obedience.
I like what Thayne suggests we do. What i don't agree with him saying it is because of world views we take on.
World views will have influence. But the biggest influence is because we are told by prophets that we will be blessed with xyz if we do xyz.
I've used the quotes hundreds times on all gospel topics when i've taught or given talks. Pick a gospel topic and i'll find a quote saying how we will be blessed when we do that thing.
So, we believe them and we expect that what they say is true. This is why we expect that we will be blessed. They are always promised. Thayne does not address the biggest reasons his friend he referenced believed they should be more blessed. The promises of prophets, bishops, blessing givers, testimonies and scriptures. It isn't the outside world view that makes members think this way. It is the internal practices and teachings of the church that create the world view for it's members.
Understanding flaws helps us address them. Understanding concerns and all negative experiences allow us to succor.
An interesting interview and good to see someone show how culture influences belief. I’m not sure it stands up to scriptural scrutiny though in an LDS context. Promises of blessings for obedience, comfort and spiritual fulfilment and being true to one’s divine identity saturate the scriptures and teachings of church leaders today. It also seems like a cold argument to suggest that a life of misery is okay so long as we are true to our covenants. A stoic idea but not terribly appealing in any way. Could also be construed as gaslighting (i.e. the problem isn’t god, others or church but the story in my head).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate you bringing up these points. You're right, scriptures do emphasize blessings, comfort, and fulfillment, and Jesus is a powerful example of facing hardship while holding to purpose and peace. Our intent wasn’t to downplay real struggles but to show how faith and resilience can coexist. Sometimes seeing our experiences through His example can help us find peace, even in tough times. Really value your perspective- it’s an important part of this conversation.
Is there a part 2?
@@sionel2604 yes
"Life is a mission
And not a career."
“Look, little currant bush, I am the gardener here, and I know what I want you to be. I didn’t intend you to be a fruit tree or a shade tree. I want you to be a currant bush, and someday, little currant bush, when you are laden with fruit, you are going to say, ‘Thank you, Mr. Gardener, for loving me enough to cut me down. Thank you, Mr. Gardener.’”
Remember, God sees the end from the beginning. We can bare seeing a toddler fall repeatedly as they learn to walk or climb, because we know they will finally walk and that they need to to progress in other ways. Yes, and we are sad if they beak a leg or are brused, but still know that will heal and they will learn from it. But if they refuse to get up andvtry again, have a tantrum or hit there sibling for being in their way, we sorrow there especially.
If most movies are about authenticity, then Iron Man would ironically not be about that. He changes regularly.
What worldview would Iron Man be about?
Hmmm... I think some of his points need refinement when expressing them, because sometimes you need to step out of the mold in search for truth, I mean our church would not be what it is if we did not step away from the mold. Jesus was the same, that example he used of "October sky," If those kids did not pursue rockets instead of mining for coal, Nasa would not be what it is today. I get we need to change, repentance is chance, but sometimes understanding who we are as individuals is a must in order for us to realize we need to change in order to be more like Christ.
Thanks for sharing this perspective-I really appreciate the thought you put into it. I get what you’re saying about stepping outside the mold; Jesus is the perfect example of that, and it’s a solid reminder of how growth and discovery can bring us closer to truth. Love the October Sky example too-sometimes understanding ourselves better helps us see where we need to grow. Jeff made a good point too about how some narratives can shape how we see the Gospel, often without us even realizing it. There’s a lot to think about here, and I’m grateful for the chance to dig into these different perspectives. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
I think my comment was deleted. Heaven forbid we question anything! It was exactly that "never question anything" that led me to complete misery. I was just trying to help people who are miserable like I was. The church, my faith, it really hurt me. I'm not anti-church. I'm not. For some people, it works for them, and that's great. But, it does not work for everyone, and telling people that it does is so harmful.
Julie, thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I know it’s not always easy to talk about difficult experiences, especially ones that feel so personal. I'm sorry to hear about the pain you’ve been through-sounds like you've been through a lot.
I appreciate you bringing this up. If there’s anything specific you’d want to discuss, please feel free to share. I’d love for this space to be one where all perspectives are respected, and people feel supported. Wishing you peace as you continue moving forward.
And sometimes, UA-cam filters comments automatically based on keywords, but please know you’re welcome to share your thoughts here. - Stephen
@@LetsGetRealSJ I appreciate the kind reply. I did watch the entire video, and I think it made me a little emotional. I think my response came from a place of hurt, and not really a rational or kind place. A year ago, I would have ate all of this up and made myself so miserable doing so.
Thinking about the video later, in a more calm and rational place, I realized that nothing Dr. Thayne said was necessarily wrong or harmful. Talking about worldviews and how they may not align with God's views make a lot of sense. And, it was probably really helpful to quite a few people. I think my response was more of a response to my past self.
Truth is, I don't know if the church is true or not. I spent 30 years believing in it full-heartedly. But, either way, I know that God needed me to take a step away, maybe just for a little while. With faith, there is hope, and I needed to hit rock bottom. Really give into my despair to start to untangle the mess I spent years getting myself into. And, that's where I'm at right now.
Thank-you again, Stephen. Have a beautiful day!
@juliemccann8481 I think sometimes, similar to swimming, we need to sink low enough to reach the bottom so we can kick off and return to the surface. I hope you'll be able to do so and find the strength to keep reaching out for Our Heavenly Father and Our Savior.
Jesus did “think of himself” in that He fulfilled His promise/covenant with His God.
As an English teacher, and one who teaches others how to speak, this man is rambling. He has no direction. He has no thesis. Why is Thayne on this podcast?
It's not that the gospel isn't working. The gospel works. It's not a gospel problem.It's a them problem
Maybe some people who leave the church do so because they had misplaced expectations or simply didn’t want to change but I think a much more common reason is that they valued truth and discovered things about the church that convinced them that the truth claims of the church just don’t hold up well to scrutiny.
The Church's main truth claim is that truth is revealed by God through the Holy Ghost. I don't know anybody who really has a problem with that perspective. Many people get hung up on the didactic manner in which Church Histroy was presented in the early 20th century. Yet we all know that that was the main narrative style all institutions used to present information in that Era-look and any school textbook or any denomination's presentation of their doctorine and history. Everything was whitewashed. Do people really expect members in the past to present information against the norms of their day to please the wims of some future generation? Now that modern society has decided every possible view, especially every minority, should be thrust in the spotlight, people are upset with how things were presented in the past. I realized long ago that I had no right to tell God under what circumstances I would be willing to accept his truth. My standard is not God's standard. If God wants to use someone I despise or think is a criminal, that is his prerogative. If I am led by the Holy Ghost to know deep within my soul that something is true, then I will accept that no matter how unpopular that idea may be. If someone feels called to leave the church because it makes them uncomfortable, then I wish them the best. I think there is a hierarchy of truth with historical truths at the very bottom below moral truths and spiritual truths. In the end, I guess it's the way I act that is most important to me, and history has very little influence in how I oriented my behavior. Moral truths and spiritual truth affect how I think about others and how I want to treat and respond to them.
It’s a fallacy to think you can “prove” spiritual things
If everything can be proven - there is no need for faith
Faith is essential in religion, the modern philosophy is : “it can’t be proven- therefore I don’t believe it’s true” or “I don’t understand it (the mind/will of God” therefore I don’t believe it
If you can’t excercise faith- you won’t believe ANY religion
@@southwestrunner6384I didn’t say anything about absolute proof. I’m talking about evidence and how certain specific truth claims don’t seem to hold up well to scrutiny. And for many people that leads them to lose trust in those claims and ultimately leave the church, because they care deeply about truth.
Faith is important to a certain degree, but faith in the face of countering evidence is not a good approach if one cares about truth. Devout Muslims, JWs, and Scientologists all have faith. That’s clearly not the key to finding truth.
@@KW-qx5boMy concerns are not merely the whitewashed nature of the church’s historical narrative, but the specifics of certain truth claims and how the evidence conflicts with those claims. As a result I think certain key truth claims are simply false, thereby leading me to honestly conclude that the church is not of genuine divine origin.
Regarding the witness of the Holy Ghost, I just don’t find that to be a particularly reliable mechanism for identifying objective truth. Many religious folks from many different and conflicting religious traditions make similar claims to justify the certainty in their beliefs.
Faith IS the key to finding truth
You won’t find ANY truth in spiritual things without Faith
If you wait for “all things to “line up” - you will be an atheist
No religion can “prove” its existence
I care deeply about truth- but I also know I don’t have the mind of God, nor do I understand the will of God- I must excercise faith
A Virgin birth cannot be proven, and doesn’t line up with any “truth” or science that I know of- and yet no one questions it in Christianity
You have to have faith
Polygamy. It’s always polygamy. I don’t understand why the church has to be so dishonest about it. Joseph said he was innocent of it and condemned it in every way possible. It’s the reason why people leave because they can’t handle the founder being a pedophile and adulterer. And then there are more people who leave because they can’t handle that the church dishonestly convey Joseph to be a polygamist. Just get rid of it completely and everyone wins.
AGREE💯
He doesn't speak with wisdom, or the Spirit.
This guy is a rambling pontificator.
mmmmmmmm!!!
Mmmm??
Ferdinand is also a beautiful Christ-like contemporary movie. I highly recommend it 🩷