As a Catholic convert who has a deep love for both Fr. Pine and Alex, this was such an incredible collaboration and discussion. This is everything I could have ever wanted it to be, and more. ♥️
If Pine had an ounce/ gram of decency, he'd immediately leave a church that extorts funds from the poorest of followers, keeps them in scientific ignorance, hides peeDough priests from the law and attacks their victims. Disgusting
Alex O Connor, one of the best torch bearers from the enlightenment rationalism, and Fr. Gregory Pine, one of the greatest intellectual minds of the Catholic Church. This should be good.
I’m a Christian, but I have massive love and respect for Alex. And I’m a “Protestant”, but I love Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I love seeing worlds collide so beautifully 😁
why DO you believe the ERROR IN YOUR BRAIN TO BE REAL , an actual thing in exitance , while .... , we didn't call '' making up gods ''' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
@@robocop4209 so what happens if someone raised without faith converts in your world view? My Mum raised me with no faith, was an atheist through most of my teens. Started to convert around 19, here we are today, was baptised and confirmed Catholic last year. Or do I just not exist in your world view
@@robocop4209 oh, as John Lennox rightly pointed out, that can also apply to Atheists, it's reductio ad absurdum. It doesn't even work in Historic Context because of the Early Christian Church having Converts in Spite of Persecution. But you know, keep using weak arguments, it doesn't help anyone
Hmmm, Something is really happening. I must commend Alex for not just being a Tribal loyalist, but fostering good faith conversations across the board. I think we need that!
What an excellent conversation, my favorite atheist and my favorite Thomist. Fr. Gregory brought me to tears yet Alex was so relatable. Thank you to whomever thought up this collaboration.
Was pleasantly surprised to find this crossover; I really enjoyed the conversation. Cracked me up when Fr. Pine had the realization that he was a preacher 😂, i.e., in the Order of Preachers. Reminds me of when I sometimes, randomly, look at my wife and realize I’m married 😅
"To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek him the greatest adventure; to find him, the greatest human achievement." St. Augustine of Hippo
@@redmusic26 we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
20 minutes in, and I am reminded that the purpose of apologetics is not the convincing of the non-Believer to accept the faith, but to attempt to keep the Believer in despite their increasing doubt of the tale they've been told. Because none of these explanations thus far do anything but restate, apriori that God exists and the way things are are the way he wants them to be. This further requires the starting position that the god under discussion is good, and thus his works are good.
Alot said doesn't fit with both sides except maybe Alex is on the honest view of it all and the priest with words that are usless to billions of Gods People who by average surly wouldn't understand and surly not take half fully educated or the other for granted, for its Gods work to support and not Mans. and this exstreamly Educated Priest fr, workswell with Alex. one thing frustrates an honest person in America of most honest low educated run in the Billions.. the Bible suggest no education and here we have the best educated is as okword as most suggestions demands of the scriptures. it doesn't add up! Faith is used when something can't be answerd. not to the passive faithfull but a honest skeptic needs to be honestly and spiritually given enough to know spiritually only at least once in 1 life time. and unfair or unreal if it can't happen. 2000 years ago 1 didn't believe with evidence of some sort and surly today will make it that much more reasonable and understood to a skeptic why.
I used to not believe (extreme cynic and skeptic) and watch these debates, *subconsciously* desiring to reinforce my reasons for not believing. Although I'm sure I would've claimed to be open minded at that time. It wasn't until I wanted to really understand how, what and why a Christian believes that God opened my eyes to the truth. John 3:16-20, Proverbs 2:3-5 and James 4:6 enlightens my understanding of what was going on in my heart prior to and leading up to my conversion (in hindsight). For the record, I think Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity, not stacking up against the Bible which I now (miraculously) believe to be God's word.
Can't object to that conclusion based on this video. I'm Catholic and it took me two days to get through 58m of this. I'm done. I thought it was supposed to be _Jesuits_ who never gave anyone a straight answer.
I believe apologetics should start with the position of "IF a God exists and that God is good, is there a logical explanation of the conditions of our world?" They will have succeeded to the extent that such an explanation is plausible or sensible. As far as I am concerned if such a God exists, the conditions of the world are such that no one can convince another of His existence, each would have to find out for themselves.
Fr. Gregory Pine is a living saint before the eyes of all people. We should all inspire to be like Fr. Pine and to do the works of Jesus Christ before us.
So glad to see this happen. Fr Pine is a saintly priest and Dominican. I’m glad to see Alex branching out to speak to people who are really living out the Christian faith in its fullness.
I have about 20 minutes left of it. And so far it’s a beautiful conversation. I highly recommend putting Alex’s and Fr Gregory Pine’s name in the title as it is barely getting any views compared to if you did. My Catholic friend sent me this video and I could not find it on UA-cam on my own. I searched up Alex O’Connor and never found it anywhere on the UA-cam search. I had to search up the direct title my friend sent me in order to see it
I think Alex is generally doing a great service both to believers and un(non?)believers, but this is one of the-somewhat rare-occasions that I've seen Alex uncomfortable due to what seems to be the sheer thoughtful and profound responses given to all of his enquiries by Fr. Gregory Pine... what a great man the Fr here seems to be.
Fr. Pine has such a great formation in medieval thought that it is difficult for modern minds to contend with him. Alex is probably one of the most refined atheistic modern minds of our particular day, having moved far beyond the very silly ideas of Dawkins and the like. Someone like Fr. Pine is needed to answer someone like Alex, I think.
Kudos to Alex for always approaching discussions/ debates from a position of intellectual honesty and true humbleness. With respect to Fr. Pine, are we really to believe that if a loving god exists and wants to have relationship with us it requires the kind of mental gymnastics just exhibited? The Jordan Petersonesque linguistic pretzels that sound so lofty but just amount to word salads. Alex asks simple, straight forward, unpretentious questions. Why can't the answers reflect that ?
It is of paramount importance these objections are given thorough treatment and response from the top tier of Catholic intellectuals across the social media landscape.
Absolutely. The war we are fighting in the culture is ideological and rooted in philosophy. All of our societal ills for the past 300 years are rooted in the so called "enlightenment", which was absolutely inspired by the "light bearer" himself.
Atheists and religious NEED to watch this as to how to properly have this king of discussion if you want to have a positive experience with such an important topic. How brilliant. BTW I’m devout Catholic.
Mr. Pine is a sophist ,he dodged the first question about the Thai people with a bunch of dribble ,I haven't yet finished the discussion but it seems to me he holds a unfalsifiable belief such that NO observation would change his mind and this is opposite to Alex's belief.
i'v seen priests in brown robes debating a couple of these youtube atheists before , this one has a white rag on , does it matter ? we didn't call ''making up gods'' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW , out of 10.000+ errors our brain makes on DAILY BASIS , making up gods ... we put at Nr.1 , why IS that , you think ? a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS , the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ... every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
Let's all pray an Ave for both of these fine gentlemen. Fr. Pine for his continued spiritual stewardship and for Alex and his seeking soul. Deo Gratias.
Fr. Pine’s words were truly brilliant and deeply thoughtful. This was one of the rare instances where Alex seemed a bit uncomfortable-not due to the content or intent, but rather because Fr. Pine’s responses appeared even more thoughtful and intellectually profound than Alex’s questions or counters, which is quite unusual to see. Who would have expected that?
Alex has an even more Christian heart than we Christians. I have never heard him judge anyone for thinking differently. I am convinced that Jesus will consider him a friend because Alex is such a sincere seeker-there are few like him. Without even realizing it, he yearns for Jesus.
@@Theo_Skeptomai That’s how it seems to me-I prefer to see it that way in every person. Maybe I know him a little, because I often think similarly to him. Everyone yearns for love. And our God is love. Whoever loves already knows God.
@MarkoZorecHimself God's love is incredibly powerful....I've felt it. If Alex keeps on this path of yearning to know I believe he will have an experience to convince him. It's just a matter of time now.
Put Fr. Gregory Pine, Jordan Peterson, Richard Dawkins and Alex O'Connor in a room together.. And it slowly becomes evident who and to what degree is more oriented to the fulness of truth in all it's possible depths. This was healing to watch. Hopeful and healing. Almost felt like evesdropping into a confessional of sorts. Lord's mercy overflow.
This was so wonderful. I am so grateful that you both met and discussed. Fr. Gregory Pine is a treasure, and I have a soft place in my heart for Alex for how much he has sought.
I love this conversation so far. It seems like Alex has a mild misunderstanding of what a person generally experiences in conversion. He often seems to point to people have "one moment" that changes their life, thus he looks back and says, "well, doesn't is seem kinda comedic that it took that one moment to convert a person to the Church? What if they didn't (to use his example) go into that particular library?" Where I this falls short is that the converted person can look back and see all the moments in which God was trying to reach him, through prayer, through another person, etc., in which they rejected God's grace. It is never just one moment, and God does not make it dependent on one moment. For example, if Alex converts immediately after this interview, it would be ridiculous to suggest "if he didn't converse with Fr. Pine, he wouldn't have converted". He's spent almost his entire rational life studying the philosophy, interviewing theists and nontheists. They were all moments in the story of a man finding Christ, and all the moments previously were building blocks to what happended in the end.
@vanatheeveryoung2562 Is that a real teaching from Catholics? As Alex asked, what's the point of any of us going through this life if God already knew what we would choose and we didn't actually have to choose before dying?
@@isaacromero3475 I didn’t misunderstand anything my friend, and used the “Catholic” (re Latin) phrase intentionally. Mary is not omnipresent, she cannot hear you, therefore she cannot pray on your behalf
@@dustinellerbe4125His sentences were grammatically correct. If you didn’t understand on that account, slowing the video down or rewinding always helps me. If you did not understand his ideas, check out aquinas 101 or thomistic institute. If you just think religion is nonsense, I'd encourage you to reconsider that belief. Pat Flynn with Philosophy for the People addresses atheism very well and responsibly.
@@dustinellerbe4125they both speak like philosophers, and the conversation was fluid on both sides. Easy to listen to and understand if you have ever read any text regarding philosophical ideas 💡 Simply put and with respects don’t say it’s non sense just because your understanding of their language of reason is minimal at the moment.
I don't think he was caught off guard, father pine wasn't really answering any of his questions, which is why Alex had to keep restating them. He speaks a lot without saying much.
As a Christian myself I have to admit that with all respect to the dominicans I find their thomistic system to fall so short of the questions Alex actually posed, it remains largely unaddressed, or not sufficiently rebutted.
I think Fr. Pine was being too cordial. There are obvious rebuttals to Alex's objections to religion. Namely, calling out sin. Sin cuts us off from God; for some it is more dramatic than for others, but in all cases we make choices all throughout our lives and these do impact our ability to commune with God. It really shows how the Protestant understanding of saved by faith alone is a slippery slope to atheism.
@@toejayexactly. It's not that God is hidden from us, it's more that we turned our backs on him. Through Adam, not by choice, but still. We want to turn to God, but for now we can only turn our side to him, as we are still sinful. What do you think?
Alex is saying that God doesn't speak to him. And God doesn't speak to anyone who is not catholic. Do you see the problem? It's not true. God starts with you were you are, every inspiration to yield yourself to what is Good comes from God. His counterargument is that it makes all religion seem right. That counter is also flawed because love doesn't force people into what they don't appreciate. His counter to that is that God is supposed to be desperate enough to beat human social and geographical structure to make himself known since their salvation depends on this. That counter is problematic since it assumes God is unfair at Judgment day and only accepts souls who knew him in the Advanced way catholics with wonderful theology do. But the Catholic Church already answered that, God is a righteous judge and the sacrifice of Christ and his church can provide a way to salvation for the people who were sincere to truth and Goodness (God) but didn't know him with sound theology through any fault of their own. Secondly, God does beat social and geological limitations. Christian ideas are what modern societies are built with, and the inate appeal of doing good, human life having value and meaning these are the voices of God. He would then ask what then is the point of evangelism if God will judge fairly at the end. The point is the production of more material and spiritual good in this world and the provision of extra chances at salvation for souls who have chosen to reject truth and goodness in favour of a wicked selfish lifestyle.
@DartNoobo you sound like a Protestant. No, sin cuts us off from God. We can, through God's grace, not sin. And when we do sin we must restore the relationship through the sacrament of reconciliation. When we are in a state of sin we cut ourselves off from God.
@toejay you sound like an illogical person 1. No sin cuts us off from God 2. When we are in a state of sin we cut ourselves from God. So which is it? Also, you sound like pharisee or any other traditionalist, foloower of man, not Christ. 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." You think it's only about repentance? Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Ow, you think it changed now, because of Christ? Romans 5: 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. We are already sinners, and we will be cleansed of sin, but not yet. Let the truth of God inside you, not the wisdom of man Seek the truth, let it in.
“The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of... We know the truth not only by the reason, but by the heart.” - Blaise Pascal And I believe Alex's heart is already a step ahead of his mind.
@BubbaF0wpend People also come to wrong conclusions using their minds: any school test would prove as much. As we say: it is not an either ... or, but both - and.
@@Shlomayo the "heart" is just a strange way of saying the mind; it's just our inner experience (feelings). There is no "heart", except for that which pumps blood; these feelings all take place in the mind. So yes, I agree, people come to different conclusions in their mind. This is why feelings ("heart") should be ignored as much as possible and reason and evidence are the only tools for the job. Yes, conclusions reached still involve the mind, but are far less likely to be observably wrong using only reason and evidence and taking feelings ("heart") out of the equation as much as possible.
I agree that it would be better if Fr. Pine used simpler vocabulary, but if you are claiming someone has ill intent (here wanting to obfuscate), you should have good reasons to believe that. It just poisons the discussion if you assume that too lightly.
The reason why it seems to many atheists here that Fr. Pine didn't answer Alex's concerns is because in a sense he did and in a sense he didn't. He didn't answer Alex's concerns in a *direct* way; rather, he answered them often in an *indirect* way (this is also why he may have appeared unclear). This is because, instead of addressing the concerns themselves, he addressed Alex's assumptions/presuppositions that led to Alex's concerns. It is analogous to an atheist stating something like, "The Big Bang doesn't show that the universe began in time. In fact, some physicists suggest models where the universe has always existed in some way. Therefore, it is not necessary to posit a God." The atheist, in this analogy, assumes that the universe always existing is problematic to the theist, but he would be mistaken. So, the theist might, instead of answering the concern directly (i.e., by discussing the temporal origins of the universe), answer it indirectly (i.e., by showing that an always-existing universe still requires a God, so the findings of the physicists on this matter are irrelevant). In addition to this, Fr. Pine used Thomistic terminology and thought without much explanation; to the Thomist, he made complete sense, but, to the atheist, he may have been hard to understand. Much of what he said could've gone over many viewers' heads.
I appreciate what your pointing out here, and I thinks it's partially true especially later in the podcast. Alex often holds theists to a blanket of beliefs that may not apply fairly. But to the first few questions, Pine was clearly obfuscating. I think he probably realized that Alex isn't so easily distracted, and that these types of answers dont really satisfy a literal question. In the latter half Pine stops "teaching" and becomes more honest, even saying "i dont know, i think maybe this..." or "one way to look at it is this..." a few times, which is a perfectly acceptable answer to difficult questions. Alex probably couldve met him half way and adjusted a little bit, seeing that Pine isnt interested in a literal interpretation of every word of Genesis. Either way both brilliant men, and the conversation definitely got better as it went.
It is only through the grace of God will one believe and convert. We know that logical reasoning alone will not convince an atheist. In a nutshell, Fr. Pine explains that we cannot comprehend God's infinite nature and His reasons for making things the way they are and why things happen the way they do. As Fr. Pine pointed out, what we humans perceive with our finite minds as suffering and injustice is not the same as from God's point of view. I would argue that to say that atheist are not at fault for not believing in God because of God hiddeness is being prideful because that is tantamount to saying I must understand as God does to believe. But to understand as God does means you are God by definition. Atheists insist that unless the infinite can fit into their finite minds, they will not believe. Body language of Alex says it all.
Don’t try to justify being indirect. Beating around the bush doesn’t get us anywhere. Pine was indirect because he doesn’t want to be demonized by the non Christian audience. There is no open discussion only Pine’s doctrine.
Hope these two come together again soon. Even as a catholic I felt that I could resonate so much with Alex and his honest searching for a God that cannot be denied
Well Alex ain't buying it. So I guess he's bound for hell. Which this goof considers eternal punishment in whatever form that takes. Its fucked up guys. Eternal punishment for the crime of non belief.
@@andrewtuff216 Non belief is rejection of the Savior. No Savior, is God supposed to force us to believe? If you think we have a choice to believe or not, then we all have to face the consequences. Eternal punishment nevers concerns believers. We sleep well. So have it your way.
I had to listen to some of Pines responses twice to intuit all the things he so eloquently didn't say. As always, Alex diplomatically points this out and then let's it go.
Pine came across to me like he was attempting to sound like an intellectual esotericist, in reality of course he sounded like a dickhead spouting complete gobbledygook
Loved the cadence and energy of this conversation. Almost soothing. Nice switch up from typical debate. Having said that, Alex is impressive and i stop short at being disappointed because although Greggorys continual inability to answer the majority of Alex’s questions. I’m reminded no one before has been able to. At least Greggorys not answers were done in a graceful and not an unwarranted defensive way. Pleasure listening to both.
Finally someone who understands, lives by the principle of, and articulates well the philosophy of contemporary Christianity. Doesn't add merit to the argument of theism in my personal. Great conversation!
The graces given to us by God are not given to us merely for ourselves. We are stewards of them, to an end that transcends us and is aimed as a gift to our brethren. Inasmuch as this is understood, Alex's gripe about God giving faith to some and not to others is diffused. God doesn't give you because you are his favourite. He gives you because you have a role to play. Yes, there is a hierarchy of grace. But once we understand that we are all linked and our relative place in the hierarchy is not better than anyone else's, we begin to understand that it is no one else's journey but our own. Agency comes in, sure. Ultimately, if we use our agency, coupled with his grace, to align with our original roles, we experience this "elevation". But it isn't an elevation relative to others, it is an elevation relative to our old selves. The beautiful thing, however, is that the person making proper use of the graces ends up pouring them into others around him/her, the given becomes the giver. God may not be appearing to you Alex, but he is speaking to you through all of the souls to whom he has spoken.
Speaking as a former atheist who's back to being Catholic, in my view, the issue with why Alex says he keeps knocking and not getting doors opened is because he specifically chooses not to go in. So, in some way, he's choosing to not allow himself to get the grace of God, regardless of how much God graces him with, because for some reason, he believes, he needs to have perfect understanding and evidence of God before he can walk through the already opened door in front of him. As a result, he still sees it closed. But, it's his own choice. As a former atheist, I was in that same boat for many years... many years where I questioned everything and then one day, I decided to give up and just lean in, and all of the sudden, I was inside, and the door had already been opened. I had to realize first that, no human being is all-knowing, and yes, like... I knew that, but I still kept asking for perfect evidence of God, and had to realize, that for many things, there's no perfect evidence, only close approximations. When I gave up and decided to lean in and just trust the providence of God as so many had told me to do... I finally got it.
As he says every time he brings it up, it doesn't have to be specifically him, you have to argue that every single person who "keeps knocking" chooses not to go in, which seems incredibly unlikely. AFAIK Alex has immersed himself more in Christianity than many Christians, living with several Christian roommates, attending church on Sundays, along with having serious discussions and reading relevant literature.
@ I am arguing that. He uses the metaphor of the door. But what that is for everyone is different. For me was multifaceted. In the first place I had issues with the lack of perfection, that may stumble others and others not, but once I considered I could believe, I had a lot of self pride to get over: what would people think of me? The once an atheist turned catholic. I had to get over that. Once I accepted the reality of God, I had to come to terms with what he expected of me and my obligations to God. There are a lot of steps to this, and every step is a choice. I delayed those choices for years.
@@ThespianGamr Depends also on which kind of Christianity, you mean. Take John 14:12, for example - what does it truly mean? And Romans 8:30. Also yes - we read Exodus 30:12, often. And Exodus 32:29... So we sort of know what... He expected, per se. 1 Samuel also coming later.
@@ayarzeev8237 your asking, why doesn’t God do what I want Him to do: I don’t know… God has his reasons. We’re made to understand that God’s ways are not our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, his weakness stronger than the strongest man, etc. I can’t claim to know why God doesn’t show himself in human form to you, me, or Alex, and why he does to others but not all of us. We can posit many reasons based on the results we notice from everyone’s experience with God, but all I know is that it is more than evident that God has more than SHOWERED Alex with His grace. And Alex still chooses to stand and not kneel.
A big part of how we build up the numerator is seeking God (to whatever degree is available in our circumstances), using the grace He gives us, asking forgiveness, forgiving others . . . not all just trying to be "good person" on our own to prove we are worthy. God makes us worthy. We just need to avoid running away, many times.
I don’t know how anyone could sit down and talk to Father pine for a few hours and not believe in God. I didn’t have any faith in my 20s now I’m a grateful Catholic all by the grace of God. I’m so blessed to be a Catholic. It’s the greatest gift I have and my life isn’t perfect and neither is my family but I’m so thankful to know God.
I dont know how anyone could talk to this deceitful person and not come away being more affirmed in the fact he doesn't know his god exists He was asked simple questions but instead of answering them he went off on random tangents that did ANYTHING but answer the actual question. The only person who does things like that are people who are being deceitful on purpose You dont know god.... you are a typical delusional human being who thinks he is the main character in his own story and has convinced himself that they have a PERSONAL relationship with the creator of the entire universe and believes that this god takes the time to personally gets to know him and no doubt helps and guides him through life while THOUSANDS of people around you die of starvation, rape, murder and god apparently just sits back and watches this happen and LETS it happen I know your tiny little brain has knee-jerk reactions primed for what I just said, and no doubt your indoctrinated brain is already screaming "fallen world" and "free will" and whatever other fallacious and deceitful things you think explain this, but the reality is you cant explain it and you have no choice but to just WISH that there is an answer for it as other knee-jerk reactions are triggered in your brain like "god works in mysterious ways" and "there is a reason, god knows" or whatever other platitude you have to tell yourself in order to NOT think reasonably or rationally Sorry mate... but you are literally parading your ignorance around like its something to be proud of when all it does is just points out how gullible you are and how you are the embodiment of "ignorance is bliss", skipping through the world while other people suffer and die around you ONLY religion can make a good person ignore the EVIL things happening in this world There is no god, it is a fictional imaginary friend that humanity has made up. We are evolutionarily primed with survival traits like "agency" and "tribalism" which has lead to religiosity and the sooner people wake up to their flawed thinking the better
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!!!!! I think i made a comment on Alex’ channel a few years back about wanting a talk between Alex n Fr. Pine! My TWO FAVORITE BRAINS!!!! GOD IS GOOD!!!! Feels like Christmas!!!!
@@mutebard1252 yes and no. I think he just points out potential flaws and I think there’s lots of things that need to be addressed. He just brings them to light and if Christianity is true, there must be an answer.
@@okj9060these are not “potential flaws” - these are actual flaws within the Abrahamic religions. Story’s that are counter to each other, divine hiddenness, slavery and more.
Why do you believe Alex specifically is on the path? If you listen to him, he doesn't really have much doubt about whether the Biblical paradigm is in fact true or not. He's firmly an atheist. The only thing that sets him apart (and has opened up a niche for him to inhabit in the market of theology discussion) is that he's an atheist that isn't hostile to Christianity. In other words, the only thing that has changed from his new atheist days is his manners. But nothing points to him having any more seeds of faith, as it were, than anybody else.
Alex says "of course" if he had been in the Garden of Eden he would have rejected Satan's offer, and thinks that the only reason Eve and then Adam succumbed to it was through deception. But he himself is repeating Eve's error: he thinks he has unfailing vision of what is "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil" and so commits to the choice of the fruit of morality. He has the option right now of choosing to reject the error, but chooses not to. The rational intellect is prideful, but is totally incapable of seeing when it is wrong. That's how you get Sam Harris.
Please answer this question if you will. How could Eve and Adam have known that following what God said versus what the serpent said was good or evil (which was good/which was evil) without their not having ate from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil before they made their decision???? Herein lies the problem with "the original sin" claim.
@@Sealust50 well, it's not a new or easy question..! I think the point is that you don't need to know (or rather, trick yourself into thinking that you know) what is "good" or "evil" in order to live life in harmony with God. How could they have "known" that it was wrong? I'm not sure that anyone ever "knows" what is good or evil, but that doesn't stop us doing good or evil. Sometimes the most dangerous people are the ones who do things "knowing" that they are right.
@@Sealust50well, let’s say you are the parent of toddlers. You don’t expect them to know right from wrong yet, but you do expect them to do what you tell them over what a stranger tells them.
@@NothingForgottenyou're not making sense. Nobody truly knows what is good and evil yet we must still decide between being good and not evil. You called out Alex yet you don't even know the answer. So for this lack of knowledge you blindly choose faith.
@@Woogieman15Alex claims he knows the answer, he claims he would know the good thing to do when confronted with temptation. I don't believe him. As for me, I'm aware that I don't have this knowledge and I'm aware that reason alone won't ever get me to it.
*I'm favoured only God knows how much I praise Him,* $230k every 4weeks! | now have a big mansion and can now afford anything and also support God's work and the church.
Only God knows how much grateful i am. After so much struggles I now own a new house and my family is happy once again everything is finally falling into place!!
I started pretty low, though, $5000 thereabouts. The return came massive. Joey is in school doing well, telling me of new friends he's meeting in school. Thank you Evelyn Vera, you're a miracle.
Wow...I know her too she is a licensed broker and a FINRA agent she is popular in US and Canada she is really amazing woman with good skills and experience.
I love this crossover, I love Fr. Pine, and I would especially love to see Alex come out in a debate and hit us with a "You know...fair enough" hahaha What an awesome idea.
Alex articulates my own questions about original sin and the arbitrariness of divine revelation so well! These are precisely two of the main reasons why I have slowly drifted away from thinking Christianity is true, atleast in its conventional form.. and I didnt hear anything from Father Pine which was a reasonable answer to those questions.
I would love to take a swing if you want to outline them? Could you elaborate on what you mean by the "arbitrary" nature of divine revelation? If arbitrary means "without meaning". Then any choice made by God is by definition not arbitrary... As God is meaning itself
Agreed. There has never been good argument or evidence for the existence of god. Faith is not a virtue and belief, especially unwarranted belief, should be questioned.
@@scottymeffz5025 I wouldn't say that there has never been a good argument for God's existence so easily. Maybe the ones you know about don't convince you and that's alright. But it doesn't mean there has never been a good one.
@RedRoosterRoman I was referring to the fact the geographic distribution of religions in the world. Most people follow a particular religion because of their place and family of birth. Not because of intellectual or spiritual discussions. And then they justify that with subsequent arguments. And the the obvious tribalism which comes with defending "my' religion. Dispassionate pursuit of truth is very rare in my opinion. Like Alex mentioned, the current reality seems to be better explained by just natural forces in a non Christian world. This is kinda what you would expect in a world where religion is part of the human evolutionary and cultural story. Not a world with an all knowing and loving God. I understand that there are work arounds for this problem by changing traditional Christian doctrines like hell, need for evangelism and personal belief. I hope something like that is true because I don't want to live in a meaningless Godless universe..
What exactly was insufferable about him here? I found him to be quite charitable and kind. In fact his body language is somewhat guarded, not arrogant.
I like both, but I find humility to be oozing off of Pine. And not so much of Alex. For example, Alex's argument hinges on him doing no wrong as a seeker, while he would never make the claim that psychology as a field supports the idea that we can accurately access ourselves. Pine is hard to understand at times, but that is also because he is very measured and accurate.
To be fair to Alex though, he did asked on a humble way to Fr. Pine what he could have done different . I do not think he argued he did everything perfect in his search for God
In some sense I marvel at why I continue watching it - halfway through. I admire Fr. Pine's knowledge and... vocabulary - bit are well spoken and educated. Yet, after having read so many saints and the Gospels, I'd say all those things could be explained so much more simply... Particularly on the part of Fr. Pine. Yes, he's humble, and speaks to the intelectual level of the interlocutor, but I also constantly hear something resembling avoidance of direct answers which I cannot comprehend - so much is actually quite simple. Hard but simple (as opposed to complicated). I won't go into it more - I'd have to write a dissertation then... Better to recommend books and essays written by saints like st. Francis de Sales, Saint Liguori; so much Padre Pio said that explains those things, the desert fathers too. The Gospels as well - we make millions of choices throughout life, exactly like F. Pine said in reference to C.S. Lewis and the road to Heaven or Hell - the more in alignment with God we are - no matter the starting point, the closer we get to Him, and He takes care of the rest. Many atheist like talking about seeking God and not being convinced. It's a smoke screen. Whoever seeks God truly and sincerely ALWAYS finds Him. ALWAYS. That's just it. Whoever seeks himself and grows more and more apart may choose in despair to throw themselve into Hell in the final rejection of God's mercy, even because they don't believe God would forgive them - still thinking in human terms - as they always do - they wouldn't forgive such trespasses against themselves so they just cannot comprehend it in God. And the more evil people become the more scary and unmerciful God SEEMS to be to them. They are wrong, but it was free will that led them to the precipice.
The reason why he fails to be direct is because the glaring problems posed by Alex's simple questions are too inconvenient for him to address without obfuscating and pivoting.
Thank you Jesus for sane conversations. Alex has come a long way. My first impression a few years ago was that of a arrogant condescending posh little brat. However, I felt pity for him being so intelligent but so spiritually bankrupt. He’s so gifted at such a young age but he gets in his own way, overthinking theology, not willing to humble himself to accept God through faith. Looking for an equation to solve to find God or solve a puzzle to believe, if he could quiet his brain and look all around, God can be found everywhere we need only to seek Him. There is no shame to allow ourselves, against our best thinking, to take that leap. Like I said he is coming along, he’s making progress. My experience, sad to say, it took seeing the devil for me to believe in God. I pray he finds God before he finds hell. 🙏
Alex finishes asking a question at 23:37, after mentioning that sometimes he is just not convinced by arguments, and if that's the case, "What is it that I might be doing wrong?" To this AMAZING, vulnerable, and courageous question, I think we need to just STOP, and sit in the Reality who is beyond all words and arguments. I know this is hard because its a podcast, and the point is to literally talk to each other, but the one Word which is the peace that surpasses all understanding, that peace for which Alex's heart (and all our hearts) are longing, will not force Himself upon us. Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them," so the Father must speak His one Word of Love to each of us in a unique way. Yes, most of the time it happens through words, but sometimes, especially for someone like Alex, it seems like the silence might be the place to meet Him. This is not to be anti-reason, it is just to point to the heart, and say that when the mind and will are united in knowledge and love (aka wisdom), no more words are necessary. Anyway, this is awesome that you guys are talking. Continued prayers for you both... Fr. Brian
@ThisDonut I've been told to shut up, be silent, don't question certain things in certain ways or perspectives, so, so many times in various denominations all my life for asking questions so doesn't sound too far out of line. Enough of that and one can come at times to realize maybe seeking answers from religion is not even the right way to go about seeking truths, vs asking more critical questions about humans, our own perspectives pre anything installed into us top down conceptually that hides its roots vs exposing them, that tries to use apologetics, explanations centuries later to patch up flawed initial frameworks, simply because they claim absolution. (We don't do that with other things we hold about reality as much - do we think miasma still the cause of illness, geocentrism to be true just because old books claim it from their perspectives of data at the time?) Silence only lets more unanswered questions brew. Thought terminating cliches only work from within the held perspective of a religion, to ratify questions is not the same as being quiet and to the dissonance posed by those questions settle to below conciousness awareness again, going top down concepts vs bottom up thinking, but in those who don't hold those frameworks, this method only seeds more questions about the frameworks. Questions are essential to build up truth claims from the ground up to validate them - just jumping in accepting a top down claim from scriptures (not all is top down, but critical elements demand that shift, to hide the flawed roots from bottom up perspective). Synaptic pruning ties into this though, in that God makes some people simply unable to question as much, and not as predisposed to them, in that sense then, because synaptic pruning shifts the default mode network to top down vs bottom up thinking, which the latter is what is needed to evaluate from nihilo what the structure is, vs what it claims to be top down wise of religions. (Not impossible, but not easy either). Just because silence works for some people to supress or "answer" and massage the questions away into new elements of the old framework in the mind, doesn't mean that will help at all for someone trying to build them from ground up as an absolute view as they demand to be. Examine the roots that lead to one wanting peace - that's potentially a biological indicator your mind wants to suppress dissonances it can feel in those structures and push them away again vs uprooting the whole structure to find out the foundations that are rooted in the mind in gordian knots of shifting structures. Don't get me wrong, silence, mediation, mindfulness and quiet *are* good. They just don't always help for what you might think they are helping with. If reason, logic are how we come to almost all other knowledge of the world, our selves, that we can prove to be true to others, then why does religion demand different treatment to be held as true, absolute?
@brianhumphrey7735 Your perspective is coming from being stuck in your own belief echo chambers. You acknowledge the question yet also fail to answer it. What if he asked a Protestant, Muslim, Jew, or Mormon this same question, and then he was told he just needed to pause and he would feel or meet God? Should he join all those religions or just the one that speaks to his soul? Or do you really think only Catholics know God and have the truth that can be known without using reason?
Wow, thanks for your comments everyone. Maybe it would help to know I am not proposing an over-arching, one-size-fits-all answer to every seeker’s question. If you even knew how many questions I ask, haha! May we never stop asking questions! I am only talking about the one moment in the video where Alex asked perhaps the most beautiful question that a person can ask. It is the cry of the heart, like the rich man in the scriptures who asked the wonderful question, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And then the Gospel author relates, “Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. ‘There is still one thing you haven’t done,’ he told him. ‘Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me’” (Mk 10: 17, 21). Even here, Jesus, in a sense, is advocating for silence. I think anyone with a listening heart, Catholic or not, could hear such a deep question and be moved to silent adoration. When I hear Alex ask that question, I hear him asking it for me, too! What am I doing wrong, Lord!? What must I do!? He is giving voice to the cry of my heart, too. He is helping me come to the end of my strength, where I might somehow surrender to the Answer Who is my refuge and strength. So yes, I do fail to answer Alex’s question, and this for two reasons: 1. Alex is such a good questioner, as he asked perhaps the greatest question one could ask. 2. I am not God who is the only one who can answer such an awesome question. Now, to the overall question of this podcast, that which regards God’s hiddenness and our seeking - and I think this is the other important, yet less divine question Alex and Fr. Pine are getting at - how do you account for God seemingly not responding to what seems to be an authentic cry of the heart such as this? And this, they talked about wonderfully, it seems to me. Of course neither hypothetical extreme is sufficient: on the one hand, there is the dismissal which says, "It seems we have no answer within our natural, human reason alone, and until I am convinced on my own terms, I will not trust that God has his mysterious ways," and on the other, there is the dismissal which says, "Don’t ask questions, we just need to believe without any reasons." I think the narrow way lies somewhere in the middle, but I do think the light comes when we choose to believe and reverence God's infinite freedom and power. And how that “moment” of being convinced happens - how that little shift occurs - I do not know. There is a mystery there. But it seems to me that Alex is on the right track. Maybe I’ll end this little homilita with another scripture passage: “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened” (Mt 7:7).
At around 1:12 Alex talks to inheritance of sin that ‘locks’ us out. Catholicism teaches that baptism and reconciliation are sacraments that fully restore grace, placing us back metaphorically speaking ‘inside Eden’. All the locks disappear (to use his analogy) until we, not God, install our own home made new locks - which are removed again at next reconciliation. (I have omitted what is the case for non-Catholics for brevity).
@@j8000 Oh dear - this is a big topic. Let me try this. Whatever the various beliefs there is only one reality. Moslems and Christians can’t be both correct. Jesus said nobody comes to the Father except through him. He also said you can do nothing without him. This is true for every person on the planet whether they know it or not. Catholics have more access to these truths than others, but it is equally true for the Hindu person. So how does this work? Sin is merely what separates you and the Father. Jesus is the bridge a cross that sin. There is no toll for that bridge. Your faith or trust (or whatever is enough) If you die in sin (most of us) you meet Jesus and this happens regardless of who you are. He has a 1-1 training session with you where are taught the true meaning and depth of God’s love. Most importantly you come to understand that you are worthy of this love. This is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love. But 100% of people pass the training session since it is given by Jesus himself. The training session is naturally deeper for those with more sins, and just like gym work that helps you will say “I wish I had not eaten that donut yesterday “. It is of course worth it a trillion times over, but you will naturally wish you started it before you died. If you had not only would this process happen in heaven with Jesus be easier, but life on earth would have been easier and more loving (you can see this clearly now, but you could not on earth due to your pride) Catholics call this personal 1-1 time with Jesus purgatory. Even most Christians deny it. But as I said above, what is true it true regardless of whether you have heard of it or believe in. When Jesus died on the cross he descended into Hades and baptised all the souls there - Abraham and Moses and countless millions more. He will do the same for the person who dies today without ever havjng heard his name. He has all bases covered. Of that I am sure. Exactly how I cannot know for sure.
@@johnsalamito6212 Thank you for taking the time. This sounds like universalism? "this is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love" Why? The souls were created to understand that love, surely? "when jesus died on the cross he descended into hades and baptised all the souls there" How are there any souls in hades if everyone meets jesus when they die? Wouldn't everyone, even pre-linguistic humans from two millions years ago, get the training session and succeed?
@ No I am not a Universalist. People/souls reject Jesus. They condemn themselves to live without him (this is hell) but he always invites them to the wedding feast. Many gospel parables describe this.
Two super intelligent introverts making each other squirm and feel awkward for an hour and a half while sitting way too close for comfort. Entertainment at its best! But on a serious note: very impressed by Fr Pine's arguments!
This is my second time listening to this… what a delightful conversation between two brilliant minds. I would love to see these two dialogue for a multi hour conversation and on a series of such topics. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing this with us.
Words will only take you so far. If you want to know what a pomegranate tastes like, reading about it, debating about it, quantifying it's mineral content, will never let you know its flavor. You must taste it. Experience it. There are many spiritual paths that will bring you an experience. They take practice, devotion, and sacrifice. A YT video won't cut it.
However, other people do this for other religions, and would say that they experience their god/gods. What this would show, is that humans are capable of ‘feeling/ experiencing the power of their almighty’ despite it being wrong (either the Christians are correct, or the Hindus etc). So devoting yourself the way you say could be more dangerous. , if it led to covertig to a different religion. This would link with what Alex commented on towards the beginning. Westerners would be more likely to ‘try’ Christianity first, and Thais would be more likely to devote themselves to Buddhism first. It seems unfair? Similarly, how can you personally garuntee that Hinduism/ Buddhism etc isn’t the right path if you haven’t spent time devoting yourself to that religion?
@aidanhazard5529 there are no Gods in the core of teaching of Buddhism , though it's wildly corrupted through different sects and cultures who have added stuff the idea of a God is a delusion created by thought in Buddhism.
The Lord tells us not to judge what is in other people's hearts, what they felt in their hearts we have no access to outside of what the text suggests, which is that they knew it was not what they were told to do, and they did it anyways, and that Adam and Eve both sloughed the blame onto other things and did not take responsibility for their actions. That they were not "at fault" for disobediance seems to be a projection. If I look at my own heart, it is obvious to me that I carry the same traits. I know someone told me not to do something, yet I knowingly abrogate it, or keep to it. Looking closely at the punishments alotted out to the 3 characters, they are the seeds of their redemption. Man and women learn to be selfless and patient in suffering through them, and the serpant loses his potency to harm us. Conner says he knows what he would choose now given the choice of a palace and a hovel, and he knows he chooses the hovel.
He seeks the palace narrative to justify itself first, before being able to make that choice. You've skipped ahead, by saying he chose the hovel. He can't choose something he isn't convinced exists, anymore than you could willingly choose to believe in another religion's claims simply because they claim it top down dogma style in their scriptures. You'd seek bottom up data, hopefully. That's what he is doing, and not finding. He's seeking, but not hearing a response. The thing the scripture says to do and will get a response on... So how's he to know it is true if it can't self validate itself via the methods it claims should work? How long do you keep trying something from a guidebook that you can't verify the claims within of, when you do try doing what it says to do, you get no results. When do we move to the view that continually trying and getting no results would be like using an old science book, thinking miasma was the cause of all diseases, to understand microbiology at that point?
Love you Alex, saying this as a believer, even when you were more of a new atheist, I believe you're the only New atheist skeptic Ive seen that actually makes an effort to have good faith discussions. You being vegan at least back then also made me a fan. Been a 11 year vegan now.
This is like Richard Dawkins trying to explain evolution to Jordan Peterson. It seems that divine hiddeness is brought up and then the other guy just starts talking about life and ignoring the topic at hand. Not saying he’s disingenuous, just that it felt like he really didn’t respond to Alex’s argument or that if he thinks he did, it didn’t come through while watching.
Yeah, it seems like none of Alex's questions were actually answered. I wonder if any Catholics even notice this or are just so biased they can't see it.
@jonny6man Not at all. I've thought long and hard about these questions and I've found answers much more clear and compelling. That said, I had seen Fr. Pine before, and I admire his profound knowledge and remarkable mastery of the English language. He seemed tense and overly cautious in this conversation. Because of my previous familiarity with his ideas and ways, I probably understood more than most, but I can see why he could come across as verbose and evasive. I also think his condition as a Dominican friar, together with his youth and reluctance to step outside of the Thomistic tradition may limit his capacity to explore more creative answers better fitted to modern sensibilities.
We need to have more of these types of dialogs in regard to understanding and belief that show compassion and respect the way this conversation was executed.
Fr Pine did a great job, in the sense that I think he tried to stick purely to philosophy/reason, and only bringing in faith when absolutely necessary. Not an easy task when the answer I think to Alex’s question, in the light of faith, is that everyone who seeks will find, everyone who knocks will have the door opened. I also appreciated his altering of several of Alex’s arguments by allegory. Those are really slippery because they’re so narratively convincing, but pointing out that certain details aren’t right, like the apartment vs palace, is really good (like the violinist argument for abortion, which has a lot of discrepancies between its narrative and how someone actually gets pregnant and what the relationship between the mother and child is from the beginning). Alex is also super great. He’s definitely in the New Atheist vein but with a lot more openness. I think for both his arguments to work, he’d essentially have to claim divine omnipotence. He continually says we can imagine someone who sincerely seeks and doesn’t find, but our ability to imagine it doesn’t mean that person actually exists. I can imagine a unicorn without it existing. Similarly, the problem of pain necessitates a kind of omnipotence to say whether or not good comes from it/it’s worthwhile. As people, it’s clear we have an extraordinary ability to actually grow through pain. I also wonder what Alex’s notion of free will is. He sometimes seems to have the very modern view that much of what we do is dependent, perhaps completely, on our surroundings, yet that jettisons the idea of free will, of the ability to choose friends, or colleges, or ultimately, God. The person in his example who chooses a college because they’re predisposed to liking the color of the ceilings at the college doesn’t strike me as someone with free will. I can have a predisposition to liking bread, and certainly that makes it difficult for me to give it up, but I can give up bread willingly if I want to, say, for weight loss, or for religious sacrifice, which ties into Pine’s point about hierarchal ordering of desires. I could have a predisposition, even a genetic one, to alcoholism, and yet, I can get through that, first by accepting the authority of a higher power, which again ties into hierarchal ordering.
C.S. Lewis "Great Divorce" is the best illustration of how easy it is to choose hell, even if they know for sure and are currently experiencing hell itself, I've ever read. Its easy to pursue an intermediate good to a bad end, as an overbearing mother, or a vindictive employee, or a prideful intellect, over an absolute good that will annihilate that position of a distorted good, whether its the nuturing instinct, personal justice, or studiousness and curiosity. In fact, we do it constantly. God help us.
You know Alex is a professional UA-camr, right? It could be God sending people his way, but I suspect the fact that Alex listens to a lot of people about God has at least as much to do with Alex's desire (and that of most of his respondents) for a steady stream of viewers.
In 5 years when he's still agnostic, the rhetoric will be "even after all these people God sent to guide him, he's still resisting the truth". As if quantity equals quality - or truth for that matter.
@@DavidWalker1 He did say this in this very video, he did say that maybe he is doing it for the views, he doesn't want to see himself as doing that, yet he accepts that unconsciously he could be doing it for the wrong reasons, I have no reason to believe either position. I can't read hearts.
@@LayDownAndRot It just worsens his judgement if he doesn't come to accept the truth, since he won't have the excuse of having no one telling him anything and that he did everything out of ignorance, in the end the issue is about trust, not about data.
I found Fr Pine's responses very cryptic and difficult to stay engaged with. In some passages he goes on and on in every direction while the questions/observations from Alex were very precise and clear.
I couldn’t agree more. Pune attempts to come across as some intellectual esotericist, in reality of course he sounded like a complete dckhead spouting absolute gobbledygook
Yes definitely. I don't see how any neutral and rational person wouldn't see just how utterly incomprehensible the monk was. The Christian monk’s vagueness and tendency toward obscurantism rendered him nearly incomprehensible, especially when compared to Alex’s articulate and persuasive reasoning. Listening to the monk's incoherent rambling was both tiresome and frustrating.
While I am a Catholic Fr p would not be my favourite ....but then he is a young man and has a bit more reflection to do perhaps.. Aquinas was a great and subtle mind ...but many who used his writings were not .
Wow. Lord Jesus have mercy! What an amazing conversation. God is sitting right in front of Alex. What if Hell is the Absolutely Nothing he expects, but you feel every minute of it forever?
So, just to lighten things up a tiny bit. I was actually told a joke on Monday night by a... Jesuit Cardinal. The Holy Spirit is sitting around with the rest of the Trinity, and Jesus says to him, "So what's going on, man?" Holy Spirit: "Meh, I think I'm gonna take a couple of weeks' vacation." God the Father Almighty: "You need it. Where you off to?" Holy Spirit: "I'm goin to Rome." Jesus: "Rome?! For vacation? But you're not gonna get any peace there, bro." Holy Spirit: "Sure I will, I've been before. They have all these councils, and synods, and committees, and they ALL invoke my name at the very beginning of their meetings, but then never mention me again and don't give me another thought! It's really peaceful!" I'll be here all week.
I like how Fr. Pine approached the inquisitor's questions from the divine perspective, not a human one. God's logic is wider and deeper than our common ways of thinking about equality, justice, etc.
You invented a " Gods logic" to try and get around the fact that logical thought fails in your beleif . The same trick as pretending there is another alternative mathematics because your answers are wrong.
I couldn't help but feel at times that Alex was almost desperate for a reason to believe. A smoking gun that would flip the switch in his brain from non-believer to believer. I pray that he one day finds his way into Jesus's loving embrace.
You have entirely invented " Jesus loving embrace" in your own mind, it's not even historically certain he even existed, it's a fantasy created after his supposed death. Do you not see that all other relegious beleivers in human history felt the same about their gods and what that means ?
Even if he doesn’t “find” his way, I imagine religious nationalism will force him into it. “When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.” Benjamin Franklin
@snowflakemelter1172 it's not historically certain that anyone existed unless you personally knew them. But we have more reason to believe that Jesus existed than to believe that almost anyone from his period existed, given the wealth of people writing about him
Thanks Alex - I hope pray He reveals Himself to you soon. When you stand on this side of Heaven the signs says - All are welcome! When you pass through the veil on the other side of the sign says 'I chose you before the beginning of creation.' I used to say to anyone truly concerned whether they would go to hell - your concern shows you are already with Him. In the reverse - those who try to prove GOd intellectually and cannot find HIm but never worry for their Sole destination are clearly not interested in what God cares about
When considering whether to believe in Christianity or not, I used to do things like compare Genesis to modern science. But some Christians interpret Genesis much more figuratively than others, so that when you do this kind of thing, you often find that the goal posts move. So, eventually, I decided that I have to judge Christianity by its own standards to see if it is internally consistent. The thing I get stuck on is that there is so much confusion in the church. Christians disagree on a lot of things. They disagree on how you are saved, where the church is, the meaning of baptism/the communion etc. But they all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But if the same voice were communicating with all of them, why wouldn't they believe the same things? So, the most I can possibly believe is that maybe Jesus was God and he spoke to us a while ago to get the message out, but that most Christians cannot expect to have a personal relationship with God in this life. In this case, God can't possibly be interested in very specific professions of faith or very specific theology/Christology/doctrine of being saved (or else he would not allow the confusion on these topics). This would be consistent with the fact that Jesus spoke much more about how to behave properly than about Christology. I have come up with plausible solutions to the problem of evil and to divine hiddenness (if you allow for a fairly hands-off God) in my own mind, but just because something is plausible doesn't mean that it's uniquely true.
I think that Jesus left us a church, when he gave Peter authority. I think we brought all this confusion on ourselves when people decided to go their own way with the Protestant reformation. Now, I'm not saying protestants cannot be true Christians.
37:25 Alex perfectly articulates the heart of the issue within the immorality and untenable nature of ECT. He's not alone here either, George MacDonald shared similar thoughts, and is expressed beautifully in his work Lilith. C.S. Lewis, loving MacDonald, took heavy inspiration as well, in his writing the Great Divorce.
42:43 This response here, taken to it's logical conclusion, would condemn mentally challenged people to an eternity of conscious torment. But not only that, it would revivify the old RCC position, that babies, specifically unbaptized babies, go to hell. No matter how soft spoken Greg may be, this is actually, definitionally, an evil belief.
I feel like I just watched two people throw a loaded pistol back and forth for 2 hours, wow. Great job recognizing that they are some of the best in this realm of discussion and getting them to have a conversation! That was awesome
There were glorious moments there where I instinctively clapped in praise of the beauty of God's plan as Fr. Pine explained. Thank you Fr. Pine for remaining humble and carefully and consciously discerning the Holy Spirit's guidance. Thank you Alex for asking the questions! 🙂
He did not answer the first question! Why are 90% of the Thais going to hell because they are Buddhist/atheist? (Essentially what Alex O Connor was asking-he was far more tactful and intelligent, but that is what he wanted answered). This gentleman didn’t even it attempt it directly. What are you missing?
Personally, I see a lot of subtle pride centered around "I" and "me". someone from an atheistic background may not find this destructive when seeking God, but what everyone needs to understand is that a lot of lukewarm Christians don't have this divine experience because of pride. Reading books like "little flowers of St Francis can give you an idea of how deep humility can go, or just go and watch the movie "The reluctant saint" and weigh on where you stand in humility before we complain about the divine hiddenness.
It goes along with "turn the other cheek" A clever ploy of the Romans to invent JC as a secret agent, when all they wanted if for the Jews to obey, worship the same gods, and pay their taxes to the empire
Instead of asking God for faith with true humility, they reproach Him for lacking it! They believe that only with their dying reason will they reach God, as if God were an idea that could fit into our small heads... And we must not think that those who do not have faith in God stop having faith. This faith simply transforms and mutilates itself to adapt to other things, like thinking that reason is sufficient to explain all reality.
As a Catholic convert who has a deep love for both Fr. Pine and Alex, this was such an incredible collaboration and discussion. This is everything I could have ever wanted it to be, and more. ♥️
If Pine had an ounce/ gram of decency, he'd immediately leave a church that extorts funds from the poorest of followers, keeps them in scientific ignorance, hides peeDough priests from the law and attacks their victims. Disgusting
Yes. Fr. Pine was so gentle and pastoral, which pairs perfectly with Alex.
Alex O Connor, one of the best torch bearers from the enlightenment rationalism, and Fr. Gregory Pine, one of the greatest intellectual minds of the Catholic Church. This should be good.
do me a favour mate. The Catholic Church has untold number of fine minds around the world through out many orders.
@ Of course. Agreed.
Good and bad are RELATIVE. ;)
@@ReverendDr.Thomas So is jeopardizing the human race, really.
@@chrissonofpear1384, that was a SPECTACULAR example of the "non-sequitur" informal logical fallacy, Slave.
I’m a Christian, but I have massive love and respect for Alex. And I’m a “Protestant”, but I love Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
I love seeing worlds collide so beautifully 😁
Wow...your the same as your parents......what are the odds ? Lol
why DO you believe the ERROR IN YOUR BRAIN TO BE REAL , an actual thing in exitance , while .... ,
we didn't call '' making up gods ''' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
@@robocop4209 so what happens if someone raised without faith converts in your world view? My Mum raised me with no faith, was an atheist through most of my teens. Started to convert around 19, here we are today, was baptised and confirmed Catholic last year. Or do I just not exist in your world view
@@robocop4209 oh, as John Lennox rightly pointed out, that can also apply to Atheists, it's reductio ad absurdum. It doesn't even work in Historic Context because of the Early Christian Church having Converts in Spite of Persecution. But you know, keep using weak arguments, it doesn't help anyone
@@Garry_Combine The opposite also happens. Still not as likely
Fr. Pine is one of my favorite main stream Dominican priests. God Bless you Fr. Pine.
I did not expect *this* collab.
haha right
I thought it was one of the clickbaity thumbnails which showed particular people but didn't feature them.
Two honest people doing their thing gives good and honest results.
But it is a welcome one
Apparently neither did they 😅
Hmmm, Something is really happening. I must commend Alex for not just being a Tribal loyalist, but fostering good faith conversations across the board. I think we need that!
Yeah, hes great like that, always steelmanning his opponents arguments and taking then seriously.
Yes. It's too bad I never see it reciprocated.
What an excellent conversation, my favorite atheist and my favorite Thomist. Fr. Gregory brought me to tears yet Alex was so relatable. Thank you to whomever thought up this collaboration.
Was pleasantly surprised to find this crossover; I really enjoyed the conversation.
Cracked me up when Fr. Pine had the realization that he was a preacher 😂, i.e., in the Order of Preachers. Reminds me of when I sometimes, randomly, look at my wife and realize I’m married 😅
"To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek him the greatest adventure; to find him, the greatest human achievement."
St. Augustine of Hippo
Yeah....so .....someone made an assertion. Provided no backing evidence. What is your point?
@@sysprogmanadhoc2785 "'If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear,'" Mark 4:23.
@@redmusic26 we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
we didn't call it the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
@@redmusic26 Juct coz a book says summat, dunt make it true
“There are places in the heart that do not yet exist; suffering has to enter in for them to come to be.”
Leon Bloy ..
Amen brother ! 🙏🏾
20 minutes in, and I am reminded that the purpose of apologetics is not the convincing of the non-Believer to accept the faith, but to attempt to keep the Believer in despite their increasing doubt of the tale they've been told.
Because none of these explanations thus far do anything but restate, apriori that God exists and the way things are are the way he wants them to be. This further requires the starting position that the god under discussion is good, and thus his works are good.
Alot said doesn't fit with both sides except maybe Alex is on the honest view of it all and the priest with words that are usless to billions of Gods People who by average surly wouldn't understand and surly not take half fully educated or the other for granted, for its Gods work to support and not Mans. and this exstreamly Educated Priest fr, workswell with Alex. one thing frustrates an honest person in America of most honest low educated run in the Billions.. the Bible suggest no education and here we have the best educated is as okword as most suggestions demands of the scriptures. it doesn't add up! Faith is used when something can't be answerd. not to the passive faithfull but a honest skeptic needs to be honestly and spiritually given enough to know spiritually only at least once in 1 life time. and unfair or unreal if it can't happen. 2000 years ago 1 didn't believe with evidence of some sort and surly today will make it that much more reasonable and understood to a skeptic why.
I used to not believe (extreme cynic and skeptic) and watch these debates, *subconsciously* desiring to reinforce my reasons for not believing. Although I'm sure I would've claimed to be open minded at that time. It wasn't until I wanted to really understand how, what and why a Christian believes that God opened my eyes to the truth.
John 3:16-20, Proverbs 2:3-5 and James 4:6 enlightens my understanding of what was going on in my heart prior to and leading up to my conversion (in hindsight).
For the record, I think Catholicism is a counterfeit Christianity, not stacking up against the Bible which I now (miraculously) believe to be God's word.
Can't object to that conclusion based on this video. I'm Catholic and it took me two days to get through 58m of this. I'm done.
I thought it was supposed to be _Jesuits_ who never gave anyone a straight answer.
@@inquirerjoe9157 FWIW, we all think we're open-minded, and very few of us are. The best thing we can do is try.
I believe apologetics should start with the position of "IF a God exists and that God is good, is there a logical explanation of the conditions of our world?"
They will have succeeded to the extent that such an explanation is plausible or sensible.
As far as I am concerned if such a God exists, the conditions of the world are such that no one can convince another of His existence, each would have to find out for themselves.
Fr. Gregory Pine is a living saint before the eyes of all people. We should all inspire to be like Fr. Pine and to do the works of Jesus Christ before us.
He defends a church that robs from teh poor, hides pervy priests from the law, and used to sell indulgences. Nothing to like
This is based on what? Its easy to make generous judgments about people we like when we only see their public persona.
My goodness are we blessed to have people like Fr. Pine. Excellent
So glad to see this happen. Fr Pine is a saintly priest and Dominican. I’m glad to see Alex branching out to speak to people who are really living out the Christian faith in its fullness.
People trying to live in a delusion .
@@snowflakemelter1172 like the atheistic delusion you mean?
Fr. Pine… wow. What a Beautiful soul. God bless him.
I agree. Alex is marvellous.
I have about 20 minutes left of it. And so far it’s a beautiful conversation. I highly recommend putting Alex’s and Fr Gregory Pine’s name in the title as it is barely getting any views compared to if you did. My Catholic friend sent me this video and I could not find it on UA-cam on my own. I searched up Alex O’Connor and never found it anywhere on the UA-cam search. I had to search up the direct title my friend sent me in order to see it
Is @massoftheages hosting this conversation? I was trying to find who hosted this conversation as it doesn't seem like @massoftheages type content.
God bless Fr. Gregory Pine. God bless the Order of Preachers. God bless Holy Mother Church
Amen. St. Dominic Pray for Us. St. Thomas Aquinas Pray for Us.
@@domanicvaldez Maybe St. Dominic wants you to put your back into it instead :P
@@radscorpion8 what?
I think Alex is generally doing a great service both to believers and un(non?)believers, but this is one of the-somewhat rare-occasions that I've seen Alex uncomfortable due to what seems to be the sheer thoughtful and profound responses given to all of his enquiries by Fr. Gregory Pine... what a great man the Fr here seems to be.
It also helps that Pine is an absolute giant of a man lol
More like Pine is saying a bunch of nothing
@@aisthpaoitht Alex seems to be following him perfectly fine. As am I.
Fr. Pine has such a great formation in medieval thought that it is difficult for modern minds to contend with him. Alex is probably one of the most refined atheistic modern minds of our particular day, having moved far beyond the very silly ideas of Dawkins and the like. Someone like Fr. Pine is needed to answer someone like Alex, I think.
@jareddembrun783 Fr Pine uses arcane vocabulary detached from reality.
Kudos to Alex for always approaching discussions/ debates from a position of intellectual honesty and true humbleness. With respect to Fr. Pine, are we really to believe that if a loving god exists and wants to have relationship with us it requires the kind of mental gymnastics just exhibited? The Jordan Petersonesque linguistic pretzels that sound so lofty but just amount to word salads. Alex asks simple, straight forward, unpretentious questions. Why can't the answers reflect that ?
It is of paramount importance these objections are given thorough treatment and response from the top tier of Catholic intellectuals across the social media landscape.
@@greypilgrim1649 Fr. Pine has given his objections a thorough treatment.
@@greypilgrim1649 Fr. Pine is a "top tier" theologian.
Absolutely. The war we are fighting in the culture is ideological and rooted in philosophy. All of our societal ills for the past 300 years are rooted in the so called "enlightenment", which was absolutely inspired by the "light bearer" himself.
@@kelly4187 Yeah that darned Satan sure is what drove society away from the Church and God! If only God hadn't let him rebel...
@@kelly4187real
Atheists and religious NEED to watch this as to how to properly have this king of discussion if you want to have a positive experience with such an important topic. How brilliant. BTW I’m devout Catholic.
Mr. Pine is a sophist ,he dodged the first question about the Thai people with a bunch of dribble ,I haven't yet finished the discussion but it seems to me he holds a unfalsifiable belief such that NO observation would change his mind and this is opposite to Alex's belief.
There's 2 faces I didn't expect to see facing each other and God am I here for it!
i'v seen priests in brown robes debating a couple of these youtube atheists before , this one has a white rag on , does it matter ?
we didn't call ''making up gods'' the First Error In philosophy .... just for the fun of it , that was 150+- YEARS AGO NOW ,
out of 10.000+ errors our brain makes on DAILY BASIS , making up gods ... we put at Nr.1 , why IS that , you think ?
a '' god '' will NEVER BE ANYTHING ELSE THEN a delusion , the game HAS BEEN OVER FOR 150+- YEARS ,
the ONLY THING a '' god '' CAN BE AN explanation FOR ... IS ... a delusion ...
every religious person is running after a dead rabbit , in a stadium with NO LIGHTS ON , in the DARKNESS , PURE darkness
Let's all pray an Ave for both of these fine gentlemen. Fr. Pine for his continued spiritual stewardship and for Alex and his seeking soul. Deo Gratias.
Fr. Pine’s words were truly brilliant and deeply thoughtful. This was one of the rare instances where Alex seemed a bit uncomfortable-not due to the content or intent, but rather because Fr. Pine’s responses appeared even more thoughtful and intellectually profound than Alex’s questions or counters, which is quite unusual to see. Who would have expected that?
I think he's just embarrassed - verguenza ajena.
It's the Holy Spirit. Alex had a very deep relationship with Jesus. It's probably a better relationship thank be to God
Alex has an even more Christian heart than we Christians. I have never heard him judge anyone for thinking differently. I am convinced that Jesus will consider him a friend because Alex is such a sincere seeker-there are few like him. Without even realizing it, he yearns for Jesus.
So, you understand the yearnings of Alex better than he. Am I to understand you correctly?
@@Theo_Skeptomai That’s how it seems to me-I prefer to see it that way in every person. Maybe I know him a little, because I often think similarly to him. Everyone yearns for love. And our God is love. Whoever loves already knows God.
@MarkoZorecHimself God's love is incredibly powerful....I've felt it.
If Alex keeps on this path of yearning to know I believe he will have an experience to convince him. It's just a matter of time now.
Put Fr. Gregory Pine, Jordan Peterson, Richard Dawkins and Alex O'Connor in a room together.. And it slowly becomes evident who and to what degree is more oriented to the fulness of truth in all it's possible depths.
This was healing to watch. Hopeful and healing. Almost felt like evesdropping into a confessional of sorts.
Lord's mercy overflow.
I am a protestant, but I always enjoy hearing Fr. Pine speak, and I really hope that Alex comes around someday, so I am excited for this conversation.
I am excited for yours. You are in my prayers, Peter
@@Peter-qb8gf I'm a Catholic and I can't listen to Fr Pine for very long 😄
Greatest collab of all time
Truly
How quickly we forget peanut butter and jelly.
@@brandonburns5249 I mean your not wrong
Jay z Linkin Park is a decent collab
This was so wonderful. I am so grateful that you both met and discussed. Fr. Gregory Pine is a treasure, and I have a soft place in my heart for Alex for how much he has sought.
Great respect to O'Connor for taking part in this conversation.
I love this conversation so far. It seems like Alex has a mild misunderstanding of what a person generally experiences in conversion. He often seems to point to people have "one moment" that changes their life, thus he looks back and says, "well, doesn't is seem kinda comedic that it took that one moment to convert a person to the Church? What if they didn't (to use his example) go into that particular library?" Where I this falls short is that the converted person can look back and see all the moments in which God was trying to reach him, through prayer, through another person, etc., in which they rejected God's grace. It is never just one moment, and God does not make it dependent on one moment.
For example, if Alex converts immediately after this interview, it would be ridiculous to suggest "if he didn't converse with Fr. Pine, he wouldn't have converted". He's spent almost his entire rational life studying the philosophy, interviewing theists and nontheists. They were all moments in the story of a man finding Christ, and all the moments previously were building blocks to what happended in the end.
Well, what if he died during the interview even though he was about to convert? He would just go to hell? Doesn't he ask this question?
@@jonny6manBaptism of Desire would be my guess.
@vanatheeveryoung2562 Is that a real teaching from Catholics? As Alex asked, what's the point of any of us going through this life if God already knew what we would choose and we didn't actually have to choose before dying?
@@jonny6man yes we believe Baptism of desire
@@jonny6man what's the point? we dont know what'll happen. we will experience it in a novel way.
I prayed for Alex to speak to an excellent theologian like Fr. Pine. Ave Maria ❤️
Even though Greg considers lying to a Nazi about where you have hidden the Jews, to be a mortal sin.
Maria is not omnipresent, she cannot hear your prayers. Ave Christus Rex
@@NathanRothschild-fy9gzironic you’re using a Catholic phrase in a statement where you misunderstand Catholicism
Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God.
@@isaacromero3475 I didn’t misunderstand anything my friend, and used the “Catholic” (re Latin) phrase intentionally. Mary is not omnipresent, she cannot hear you, therefore she cannot pray on your behalf
Glad Alex is talking to someone who thinks clearly. Seeing him with Jordan Peterson was like nails on a chalkboard.
Thinks clearly? He spoke in nonsense.
@@dustinellerbe4125His sentences were grammatically correct. If you didn’t understand on that account, slowing the video down or rewinding always helps me. If you did not understand his ideas, check out aquinas 101 or thomistic institute. If you just think religion is nonsense, I'd encourage you to reconsider that belief. Pat Flynn with Philosophy for the People addresses atheism very well and responsibly.
@@dustinellerbe4125very ironic.
@@jesusisthegreatestever8593 what is?
@@dustinellerbe4125they both speak like philosophers, and the conversation was fluid on both sides.
Easy to listen to and understand if you have ever read any text regarding philosophical ideas 💡
Simply put and with respects don’t say it’s non sense just because your understanding of their language of reason is minimal at the moment.
Alex is finally talking to someone who, in my opinion, caught him off guard. God bless you both.
I don't think he was caught off guard, father pine wasn't really answering any of his questions, which is why Alex had to keep restating them. He speaks a lot without saying much.
That is the most perfect beard I've ever seen.
Which one?
Father Pine’s, I hope.
As a Christian myself I have to admit that with all respect to the dominicans I find their thomistic system to fall so short of the questions Alex actually posed, it remains largely unaddressed, or not sufficiently rebutted.
I think Fr. Pine was being too cordial. There are obvious rebuttals to Alex's objections to religion. Namely, calling out sin. Sin cuts us off from God; for some it is more dramatic than for others, but in all cases we make choices all throughout our lives and these do impact our ability to commune with God. It really shows how the Protestant understanding of saved by faith alone is a slippery slope to atheism.
@@toejayexactly. It's not that God is hidden from us, it's more that we turned our backs on him. Through Adam, not by choice, but still. We want to turn to God, but for now we can only turn our side to him, as we are still sinful.
What do you think?
Alex is saying that God doesn't speak to him. And God doesn't speak to anyone who is not catholic.
Do you see the problem? It's not true. God starts with you were you are, every inspiration to yield yourself to what is Good comes from God. His counterargument is that it makes all religion seem right.
That counter is also flawed because love doesn't force people into what they don't appreciate.
His counter to that is that God is supposed to be desperate enough to beat human social and geographical structure to make himself known since their salvation depends on this.
That counter is problematic since it assumes God is unfair at Judgment day and only accepts souls who knew him in the Advanced way catholics with wonderful theology do. But the Catholic Church already answered that, God is a righteous judge and the sacrifice of Christ and his church can provide a way to salvation for the people who were sincere to truth and Goodness (God) but didn't know him with sound theology through any fault of their own.
Secondly, God does beat social and geological limitations. Christian ideas are what modern societies are built with, and the inate appeal of doing good, human life having value and meaning these are the voices of God.
He would then ask what then is the point of evangelism if God will judge fairly at the end.
The point is the production of more material and spiritual good in this world and the provision of extra chances at salvation for souls who have chosen to reject truth and goodness in favour of a wicked selfish lifestyle.
@DartNoobo you sound like a Protestant. No, sin cuts us off from God. We can, through God's grace, not sin. And when we do sin we must restore the relationship through the sacrament of reconciliation. When we are in a state of sin we cut ourselves off from God.
@toejay you sound like an illogical person
1. No sin cuts us off from God
2. When we are in a state of sin we cut ourselves from God.
So which is it?
Also, you sound like pharisee or any other traditionalist, foloower of man, not Christ.
1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
You think it's only about repentance?
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Ow, you think it changed now, because of Christ?
Romans 5: 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
We are already sinners, and we will be cleansed of sin, but not yet.
Let the truth of God inside you, not the wisdom of man
Seek the truth, let it in.
“The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of... We know the truth not only by the reason, but by the heart.” - Blaise Pascal
And I believe Alex's heart is already a step ahead of his mind.
People come to believe in mutually exclusive gods this way ("heart" + reason)
Feelings are obviously not a reliable path to truth.
@BubbaF0wpend People also come to wrong conclusions using their minds: any school test would prove as much.
As we say: it is not an either ... or, but both - and.
@@Shlomayo the "heart" is just a strange way of saying the mind; it's just our inner experience (feelings). There is no "heart", except for that which pumps blood; these feelings all take place in the mind. So yes, I agree, people come to different conclusions in their mind. This is why feelings ("heart") should be ignored as much as possible and reason and evidence are the only tools for the job. Yes, conclusions reached still involve the mind, but are far less likely to be observably wrong using only reason and evidence and taking feelings ("heart") out of the equation as much as possible.
You are just using the word " heart" in place of imagination because it sounds better than admitting you beleive in a fantasy.
“The heart is deceitful above all things” - God
I admire a comprehensive vocabulary when employed for clarification but not when it is used to obfuscate.
Lol exactly
Is this comment Ironic?
@@munashemanamike4217 Unintentionally, I'd imagine.
I agree that it would be better if Fr. Pine used simpler vocabulary, but if you are claiming someone has ill intent (here wanting to obfuscate), you should have good reasons to believe that. It just poisons the discussion if you assume that too lightly.
The reason why it seems to many atheists here that Fr. Pine didn't answer Alex's concerns is because in a sense he did and in a sense he didn't. He didn't answer Alex's concerns in a *direct* way; rather, he answered them often in an *indirect* way (this is also why he may have appeared unclear). This is because, instead of addressing the concerns themselves, he addressed Alex's assumptions/presuppositions that led to Alex's concerns. It is analogous to an atheist stating something like, "The Big Bang doesn't show that the universe began in time. In fact, some physicists suggest models where the universe has always existed in some way. Therefore, it is not necessary to posit a God." The atheist, in this analogy, assumes that the universe always existing is problematic to the theist, but he would be mistaken. So, the theist might, instead of answering the concern directly (i.e., by discussing the temporal origins of the universe), answer it indirectly (i.e., by showing that an always-existing universe still requires a God, so the findings of the physicists on this matter are irrelevant). In addition to this, Fr. Pine used Thomistic terminology and thought without much explanation; to the Thomist, he made complete sense, but, to the atheist, he may have been hard to understand. Much of what he said could've gone over many viewers' heads.
So apologetics?
I appreciate what your pointing out here, and I thinks it's partially true especially later in the podcast. Alex often holds theists to a blanket of beliefs that may not apply fairly. But to the first few questions, Pine was clearly obfuscating. I think he probably realized that Alex isn't so easily distracted, and that these types of answers dont really satisfy a literal question.
In the latter half Pine stops "teaching" and becomes more honest, even saying "i dont know, i think maybe this..." or "one way to look at it is this..." a few times, which is a perfectly acceptable answer to difficult questions.
Alex probably couldve met him half way and adjusted a little bit, seeing that Pine isnt interested in a literal interpretation of every word of Genesis.
Either way both brilliant men, and the conversation definitely got better as it went.
It is only through the grace of God will one believe and convert. We know that logical reasoning alone will not convince an atheist. In a nutshell, Fr. Pine explains that we cannot comprehend God's infinite nature and His reasons for making things the way they are and why things happen the way they do. As Fr. Pine pointed out, what we humans perceive with our finite minds as suffering and injustice is not the same as from God's point of view. I would argue that to say that atheist are not at fault for not believing in God because of God hiddeness is being prideful because that is tantamount to saying I must understand as God does to believe. But to understand as God does means you are God by definition. Atheists insist that unless the infinite can fit into their finite minds, they will not believe. Body language of Alex says it all.
Father Pine is the best at illuminating complex theological and metaphyscal principles.
Don’t try to justify being indirect. Beating around the bush doesn’t get us anywhere. Pine was indirect because he doesn’t want to be demonized by the non Christian audience. There is no open discussion only Pine’s doctrine.
I would live to see alex and jimmy Akin in a discussion like this
They both speak with so much grace. I love this duo
Hope these two come together again soon. Even as a catholic I felt that I could resonate so much with Alex and his honest searching for a God that cannot be denied
What do you mean by that? There are people who don't believe in the Christian god. So obviously he can be denied.
Well Alex ain't buying it. So I guess he's bound for hell. Which this goof considers eternal punishment in whatever form that takes. Its fucked up guys. Eternal punishment for the crime of non belief.
@@andrewtuff216 Non belief is rejection of the Savior. No Savior, is God supposed to force us to believe? If you think we have a choice to believe or not, then we all have to face the consequences. Eternal punishment nevers concerns believers. We sleep well. So have it your way.
@@georgekavanagh8220evidently the church program of brainwashing has had great success with you.
@@georgekavanagh8220such a close minded response to justify eternal punishment for "not beliving"
I had to listen to some of Pines responses twice to intuit all the things he so eloquently didn't say. As always, Alex diplomatically points this out and then let's it go.
Pine came across to me like he was attempting to sound like an intellectual esotericist, in reality of course he sounded like a dickhead spouting complete gobbledygook
Loved the cadence and energy of this conversation. Almost soothing. Nice switch up from typical debate. Having said that, Alex is impressive and i stop short at being disappointed because although Greggorys continual inability to answer the majority of Alex’s questions. I’m reminded no one before has been able to. At least Greggorys not answers were done in a graceful and not an unwarranted defensive way. Pleasure listening to both.
Finally someone who understands, lives by the principle of, and articulates well the philosophy of contemporary Christianity. Doesn't add merit to the argument of theism in my personal. Great conversation!
The graces given to us by God are not given to us merely for ourselves. We are stewards of them, to an end that transcends us and is aimed as a gift to our brethren. Inasmuch as this is understood, Alex's gripe about God giving faith to some and not to others is diffused. God doesn't give you because you are his favourite. He gives you because you have a role to play. Yes, there is a hierarchy of grace. But once we understand that we are all linked and our relative place in the hierarchy is not better than anyone else's, we begin to understand that it is no one else's journey but our own. Agency comes in, sure. Ultimately, if we use our agency, coupled with his grace, to align with our original roles, we experience this "elevation". But it isn't an elevation relative to others, it is an elevation relative to our old selves. The beautiful thing, however, is that the person making proper use of the graces ends up pouring them into others around him/her, the given becomes the giver. God may not be appearing to you Alex, but he is speaking to you through all of the souls to whom he has spoken.
You made all that up though, it's based on a total fantasy you have bought into of an invisible God.
Speaking as a former atheist who's back to being Catholic, in my view, the issue with why Alex says he keeps knocking and not getting doors opened is because he specifically chooses not to go in. So, in some way, he's choosing to not allow himself to get the grace of God, regardless of how much God graces him with, because for some reason, he believes, he needs to have perfect understanding and evidence of God before he can walk through the already opened door in front of him. As a result, he still sees it closed. But, it's his own choice. As a former atheist, I was in that same boat for many years... many years where I questioned everything and then one day, I decided to give up and just lean in, and all of the sudden, I was inside, and the door had already been opened. I had to realize first that, no human being is all-knowing, and yes, like... I knew that, but I still kept asking for perfect evidence of God, and had to realize, that for many things, there's no perfect evidence, only close approximations. When I gave up and decided to lean in and just trust the providence of God as so many had told me to do... I finally got it.
As he says every time he brings it up, it doesn't have to be specifically him, you have to argue that every single person who "keeps knocking" chooses not to go in, which seems incredibly unlikely. AFAIK Alex has immersed himself more in Christianity than many Christians, living with several Christian roommates, attending church on Sundays, along with having serious discussions and reading relevant literature.
@ I am arguing that. He uses the metaphor of the door. But what that is for everyone is different. For me was multifaceted. In the first place I had issues with the lack of perfection, that may stumble others and others not, but once I considered I could believe, I had a lot of self pride to get over: what would people think of me? The once an atheist turned catholic. I had to get over that. Once I accepted the reality of God, I had to come to terms with what he expected of me and my obligations to God. There are a lot of steps to this, and every step is a choice. I delayed those choices for years.
@@ThespianGamr Depends also on which kind of Christianity, you mean.
Take John 14:12, for example - what does it truly mean?
And Romans 8:30.
Also yes - we read Exodus 30:12, often. And Exodus 32:29...
So we sort of know what... He expected, per se.
1 Samuel also coming later.
Why did you assume this over God just not showing Himself to Alex?
@@ayarzeev8237 your asking, why doesn’t God do what I want Him to do: I don’t know… God has his reasons. We’re made to understand that God’s ways are not our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, his weakness stronger than the strongest man, etc. I can’t claim to know why God doesn’t show himself in human form to you, me, or Alex, and why he does to others but not all of us. We can posit many reasons based on the results we notice from everyone’s experience with God, but all I know is that it is more than evident that God has more than SHOWERED Alex with His grace. And Alex still chooses to stand and not kneel.
I’m 30 minutes in and I realize now that I’m going to have to rewatch this 3 more times to understand it 😅😂
Same here😂
I had the same feeling, but I place the fault on the host and the guest, not on myself.
Maybe because of pines inability to speak in plain english like his interlocutor
Scrambled eggs....
@ theological/philosophical concepts are difficult to explain in few words, of course it’s not “plain English”
Listening to the conversation, I get the sense that there's some sort of parallel between Alex's perception of Eve and of his perception of himself.
A big part of how we build up the numerator is seeking God (to whatever degree is available in our circumstances), using the grace He gives us, asking forgiveness, forgiving others . . . not all just trying to be "good person" on our own to prove we are worthy.
God makes us worthy. We just need to avoid running away, many times.
I don’t know how anyone could sit down and talk to Father pine for a few hours and not believe in God. I didn’t have any faith in my 20s now I’m a grateful Catholic all by the grace of God. I’m so blessed to be a Catholic. It’s the greatest gift I have and my life isn’t perfect and neither is my family but I’m so thankful to know God.
Lies
The greatness of Pines is your opinion. I wasn’t impressed.
I dont know how anyone could talk to this deceitful person and not come away being more affirmed in the fact he doesn't know his god exists
He was asked simple questions but instead of answering them he went off on random tangents that did ANYTHING but answer the actual question. The only person who does things like that are people who are being deceitful on purpose
You dont know god.... you are a typical delusional human being who thinks he is the main character in his own story and has convinced himself that they have a PERSONAL relationship with the creator of the entire universe and believes that this god takes the time to personally gets to know him and no doubt helps and guides him through life while THOUSANDS of people around you die of starvation, rape, murder and god apparently just sits back and watches this happen and LETS it happen
I know your tiny little brain has knee-jerk reactions primed for what I just said, and no doubt your indoctrinated brain is already screaming "fallen world" and "free will" and whatever other fallacious and deceitful things you think explain this, but the reality is you cant explain it and you have no choice but to just WISH that there is an answer for it as other knee-jerk reactions are triggered in your brain like "god works in mysterious ways" and "there is a reason, god knows" or whatever other platitude you have to tell yourself in order to NOT think reasonably or rationally
Sorry mate... but you are literally parading your ignorance around like its something to be proud of when all it does is just points out how gullible you are and how you are the embodiment of "ignorance is bliss", skipping through the world while other people suffer and die around you
ONLY religion can make a good person ignore the EVIL things happening in this world
There is no god, it is a fictional imaginary friend that humanity has made up. We are evolutionarily primed with survival traits like "agency" and "tribalism" which has lead to religiosity and the sooner people wake up to their flawed thinking the better
It's easy. He's a liar
@@wolfh9831 I'm a Catholic and I definitely wasn't impressed either. I felt that, on many major points, he mainly avoided the issue.
I remember that debate about lying! Fr Gregory pine you were very brilliant
My only complaint is that this conversation was 3 hours too short!
Alex, you got nuts bringing fr pine on your show. Love you both
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!!!!! I think i made a comment on Alex’ channel a few years back about wanting a talk between Alex n Fr. Pine! My TWO FAVORITE BRAINS!!!!
GOD IS GOOD!!!! Feels like Christmas!!!!
Praying for Alex, because I definitely believe he is on the path and that he is doing God's work in bringing people to Christ.
He literally does the opposite of that
@@mutebard1252 yes and no. I think he just points out potential flaws and I think there’s lots of things that need to be addressed. He just brings them to light and if Christianity is true, there must be an answer.
He is on his path and seems open and rational, that certainly doesn't discount faith but I hope he finds God 🙏
@@okj9060these are not “potential flaws” - these are actual flaws within the Abrahamic religions. Story’s that are counter to each other, divine hiddenness, slavery and more.
Why do you believe Alex specifically is on the path? If you listen to him, he doesn't really have much doubt about whether the Biblical paradigm is in fact true or not. He's firmly an atheist. The only thing that sets him apart (and has opened up a niche for him to inhabit in the market of theology discussion) is that he's an atheist that isn't hostile to Christianity. In other words, the only thing that has changed from his new atheist days is his manners.
But nothing points to him having any more seeds of faith, as it were, than anybody else.
Alex says "of course" if he had been in the Garden of Eden he would have rejected Satan's offer, and thinks that the only reason Eve and then Adam succumbed to it was through deception.
But he himself is repeating Eve's error: he thinks he has unfailing vision of what is "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil" and so commits to the choice of the fruit of morality. He has the option right now of choosing to reject the error, but chooses not to.
The rational intellect is prideful, but is totally incapable of seeing when it is wrong. That's how you get Sam Harris.
Please answer this question if you will. How could Eve and Adam have known that following what God said versus what the serpent said was good or evil (which was good/which was evil) without their not having ate from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil before they made their decision???? Herein lies the problem with "the original sin" claim.
@@Sealust50 well, it's not a new or easy question..!
I think the point is that you don't need to know (or rather, trick yourself into thinking that you know) what is "good" or "evil" in order to live life in harmony with God.
How could they have "known" that it was wrong? I'm not sure that anyone ever "knows" what is good or evil, but that doesn't stop us doing good or evil.
Sometimes the most dangerous people are the ones who do things "knowing" that they are right.
@@Sealust50well, let’s say you are the parent of toddlers. You don’t expect them to know right from wrong yet, but you do expect them to do what you tell them over what a stranger tells them.
@@NothingForgottenyou're not making sense. Nobody truly knows what is good and evil yet we must still decide between being good and not evil. You called out Alex yet you don't even know the answer. So for this lack of knowledge you blindly choose faith.
@@Woogieman15Alex claims he knows the answer, he claims he would know the good thing to do when confronted with temptation. I don't believe him.
As for me, I'm aware that I don't have this knowledge and I'm aware that reason alone won't ever get me to it.
*I'm favoured only God knows how much I praise Him,* $230k every 4weeks! | now have a big mansion and can now afford anything and also support God's work and the church.
Only God knows how much grateful i am. After so much struggles I now own a new house and my family is happy once again everything is finally falling into place!!
Wow that's huge, how do you make that much monthly?.. I have been looking for ways to be successful, please how??
It's Ms. Evelyn Vera doing, she's changed my life.
I started pretty low, though, $5000 thereabouts. The return came massive. Joey is in school doing well, telling me of new friends he's meeting in school. Thank you Evelyn Vera, you're a miracle.
Wow...I know her too she is a licensed broker and a FINRA agent she is popular in
US and Canada she is really amazing woman with good skills and experience.
Fr Pine did an amazing job here and I can’t believe this happened.
I love this crossover, I love Fr. Pine, and I would especially love to see Alex come out in a debate and hit us with a "You know...fair enough" hahaha What an awesome idea.
This should be a weekly podcast
Alex articulates my own questions about original sin and the arbitrariness of divine revelation so well! These are precisely two of the main reasons why I have slowly drifted away from thinking Christianity is true, atleast in its conventional form.. and I didnt hear anything from Father Pine which was a reasonable answer to those questions.
I would love to take a swing if you want to outline them?
Could you elaborate on what you mean by the "arbitrary" nature of divine revelation?
If arbitrary means "without meaning".
Then any choice made by God is by definition not arbitrary...
As God is meaning itself
Agreed. There has never been good argument or evidence for the existence of god. Faith is not a virtue and belief, especially unwarranted belief, should be questioned.
@@scottymeffz5025 I wouldn't say that there has never been a good argument for God's existence so easily. Maybe the ones you know about don't convince you and that's alright. But it doesn't mean there has never been a good one.
@@scottymeffz5025 the lanciano eucharistic miracle?
The modified Kalam argument?
The argument from first causes?
@RedRoosterRoman I was referring to the fact the geographic distribution of religions in the world. Most people follow a particular religion because of their place and family of birth. Not because of intellectual or spiritual discussions. And then they justify that with subsequent arguments. And the the obvious tribalism which comes with defending "my' religion. Dispassionate pursuit of truth is very rare in my opinion.
Like Alex mentioned, the current reality seems to be better explained by just natural forces in a non Christian world. This is kinda what you would expect in a world where religion is part of the human evolutionary and cultural story. Not a world with an all knowing and loving God.
I understand that there are work arounds for this problem by changing traditional Christian doctrines like hell, need for evangelism and personal belief. I hope something like that is true because I don't want to live in a meaningless Godless universe..
I've always admired Alex for his humility and eloquence. Fr. Pine did a great job, but I wish he'd speak more simply.
I agree I'm a huge fan of Alex and how he converses.
Humility? He is insufferably arrogant
What exactly was insufferable about him here? I found him to be quite charitable and kind. In fact his body language is somewhat guarded, not arrogant.
I like both, but I find humility to be oozing off of Pine. And not so much of Alex. For example, Alex's argument hinges on him doing no wrong as a seeker, while he would never make the claim that psychology as a field supports the idea that we can accurately access ourselves. Pine is hard to understand at times, but that is also because he is very measured and accurate.
To be fair to Alex though, he did asked on a humble way to Fr. Pine what he could have done different . I do not think he argued he did everything perfect in his search for God
In some sense I marvel at why I continue watching it - halfway through. I admire Fr. Pine's knowledge and... vocabulary - bit are well spoken and educated. Yet, after having read so many saints and the Gospels, I'd say all those things could be explained so much more simply... Particularly on the part of Fr. Pine. Yes, he's humble, and speaks to the intelectual level of the interlocutor, but I also constantly hear something resembling avoidance of direct answers which I cannot comprehend - so much is actually quite simple. Hard but simple (as opposed to complicated). I won't go into it more - I'd have to write a dissertation then... Better to recommend books and essays written by saints like st. Francis de Sales, Saint Liguori; so much Padre Pio said that explains those things, the desert fathers too. The Gospels as well - we make millions of choices throughout life, exactly like F. Pine said in reference to C.S. Lewis and the road to Heaven or Hell - the more in alignment with God we are - no matter the starting point, the closer we get to Him, and He takes care of the rest. Many atheist like talking about seeking God and not being convinced. It's a smoke screen. Whoever seeks God truly and sincerely ALWAYS finds Him. ALWAYS. That's just it. Whoever seeks himself and grows more and more apart may choose in despair to throw themselve into Hell in the final rejection of God's mercy, even because they don't believe God would forgive them - still thinking in human terms - as they always do - they wouldn't forgive such trespasses against themselves so they just cannot comprehend it in God. And the more evil people become the more scary and unmerciful God SEEMS to be to them. They are wrong, but it was free will that led them to the precipice.
The reason why he fails to be direct is because the glaring problems posed by Alex's simple questions are too inconvenient for him to address without obfuscating and pivoting.
Thank you Jesus for sane conversations. Alex has come a long way. My first impression a few years ago was that of a arrogant condescending posh little brat. However, I felt pity for him being so intelligent but so spiritually bankrupt. He’s so gifted at such a young age but he gets in his own way, overthinking theology, not willing to humble himself to accept God through faith. Looking for an equation to solve to find God or solve a puzzle to believe, if he could quiet his brain and look all around, God can be found everywhere we need only to seek Him. There is no shame to allow ourselves, against our best thinking, to take that leap. Like I said he is coming along, he’s making progress. My experience, sad to say, it took seeing the devil for me to believe in God. I pray he finds God before he finds hell. 🙏
Alex finishes asking a question at 23:37, after mentioning that sometimes he is just not convinced by arguments, and if that's the case, "What is it that I might be doing wrong?" To this AMAZING, vulnerable, and courageous question, I think we need to just STOP, and sit in the Reality who is beyond all words and arguments. I know this is hard because its a podcast, and the point is to literally talk to each other, but the one Word which is the peace that surpasses all understanding, that peace for which Alex's heart (and all our hearts) are longing, will not force Himself upon us. Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them," so the Father must speak His one Word of Love to each of us in a unique way. Yes, most of the time it happens through words, but sometimes, especially for someone like Alex, it seems like the silence might be the place to meet Him. This is not to be anti-reason, it is just to point to the heart, and say that when the mind and will are united in knowledge and love (aka wisdom), no more words are necessary. Anyway, this is awesome that you guys are talking. Continued prayers for you both... Fr. Brian
Sorry, what is your reccomendation for Alex? Silence? You believe silence will help him come to see god?
@ThisDonut I've been told to shut up, be silent, don't question certain things in certain ways or perspectives, so, so many times in various denominations all my life for asking questions so doesn't sound too far out of line.
Enough of that and one can come at times to realize maybe seeking answers from religion is not even the right way to go about seeking truths, vs asking more critical questions about humans, our own perspectives pre anything installed into us top down conceptually that hides its roots vs exposing them, that tries to use apologetics, explanations centuries later to patch up flawed initial frameworks, simply because they claim absolution. (We don't do that with other things we hold about reality as much - do we think miasma still the cause of illness, geocentrism to be true just because old books claim it from their perspectives of data at the time?)
Silence only lets more unanswered questions brew. Thought terminating cliches only work from within the held perspective of a religion, to ratify questions is not the same as being quiet and to the dissonance posed by those questions settle to below conciousness awareness again, going top down concepts vs bottom up thinking, but in those who don't hold those frameworks, this method only seeds more questions about the frameworks.
Questions are essential to build up truth claims from the ground up to validate them - just jumping in accepting a top down claim from scriptures (not all is top down, but critical elements demand that shift, to hide the flawed roots from bottom up perspective).
Synaptic pruning ties into this though, in that God makes some people simply unable to question as much, and not as predisposed to them, in that sense then, because synaptic pruning shifts the default mode network to top down vs bottom up thinking, which the latter is what is needed to evaluate from nihilo what the structure is, vs what it claims to be top down wise of religions. (Not impossible, but not easy either).
Just because silence works for some people to supress or "answer" and massage the questions away into new elements of the old framework in the mind, doesn't mean that will help at all for someone trying to build them from ground up as an absolute view as they demand to be.
Examine the roots that lead to one wanting peace - that's potentially a biological indicator your mind wants to suppress dissonances it can feel in those structures and push them away again vs uprooting the whole structure to find out the foundations that are rooted in the mind in gordian knots of shifting structures.
Don't get me wrong, silence, mediation, mindfulness and quiet *are* good. They just don't always help for what you might think they are helping with.
If reason, logic are how we come to almost all other knowledge of the world, our selves, that we can prove to be true to others, then why does religion demand different treatment to be held as true, absolute?
@brianhumphrey7735 Your perspective is coming from being stuck in your own belief echo chambers. You acknowledge the question yet also fail to answer it.
What if he asked a Protestant, Muslim, Jew, or Mormon this same question, and then he was told he just needed to pause and he would feel or meet God? Should he join all those religions or just the one that speaks to his soul? Or do you really think only Catholics know God and have the truth that can be known without using reason?
Wow, thanks for your comments everyone. Maybe it would help to know I am not proposing an over-arching, one-size-fits-all answer to every seeker’s question. If you even knew how many questions I ask, haha! May we never stop asking questions! I am only talking about the one moment in the video where Alex asked perhaps the most beautiful question that a person can ask. It is the cry of the heart, like the rich man in the scriptures who asked the wonderful question, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And then the Gospel author relates, “Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. ‘There is still one thing you haven’t done,’ he told him. ‘Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me’” (Mk 10: 17, 21). Even here, Jesus, in a sense, is advocating for silence. I think anyone with a listening heart, Catholic or not, could hear such a deep question and be moved to silent adoration. When I hear Alex ask that question, I hear him asking it for me, too! What am I doing wrong, Lord!? What must I do!? He is giving voice to the cry of my heart, too. He is helping me come to the end of my strength, where I might somehow surrender to the Answer Who is my refuge and strength. So yes, I do fail to answer Alex’s question, and this for two reasons: 1. Alex is such a good questioner, as he asked perhaps the greatest question one could ask. 2. I am not God who is the only one who can answer such an awesome question.
Now, to the overall question of this podcast, that which regards God’s hiddenness and our seeking - and I think this is the other important, yet less divine question Alex and Fr. Pine are getting at - how do you account for God seemingly not responding to what seems to be an authentic cry of the heart such as this? And this, they talked about wonderfully, it seems to me. Of course neither hypothetical extreme is sufficient: on the one hand, there is the dismissal which says, "It seems we have no answer within our natural, human reason alone, and until I am convinced on my own terms, I will not trust that God has his mysterious ways," and on the other, there is the dismissal which says, "Don’t ask questions, we just need to believe without any reasons." I think the narrow way lies somewhere in the middle, but I do think the light comes when we choose to believe and reverence God's infinite freedom and power. And how that “moment” of being convinced happens - how that little shift occurs - I do not know. There is a mystery there. But it seems to me that Alex is on the right track. Maybe I’ll end this little homilita with another scripture passage: “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened” (Mt 7:7).
ua-cam.com/users/shortsMQm4MsWG07w?si=bMNlk94ECStwcVur .
At around 1:12 Alex talks to inheritance of sin that ‘locks’ us out. Catholicism teaches that baptism and reconciliation are sacraments that fully restore grace, placing us back metaphorically speaking ‘inside Eden’. All the locks disappear (to use his analogy) until we, not God, install our own home made new locks - which are removed again at next reconciliation. (I have omitted what is the case for non-Catholics for brevity).
What's the case for non-catholics?
@@j8000 Oh dear - this is a big topic. Let me try this. Whatever the various beliefs there is only one reality. Moslems and Christians can’t be both correct. Jesus said nobody comes to the Father except through him. He also said you can do nothing without him. This is true for every person on the planet whether they know it or not. Catholics have more access to these truths than others, but it is equally true for the Hindu person. So how does this work?
Sin is merely what separates you and the Father. Jesus is the bridge a cross that sin. There is no toll for that bridge. Your faith or trust (or whatever is enough) If you die in sin (most of us) you meet Jesus and this happens regardless of who you are. He has a 1-1 training session with you where are taught the true meaning and depth of God’s love. Most importantly you come to understand that you are worthy of this love. This is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love. But 100% of people pass the training session since it is given by Jesus himself. The training session is naturally deeper for those with more sins, and just like gym work that helps you will say “I wish I had not eaten that donut yesterday “. It is of course worth it a trillion times over, but you will naturally wish you started it before you died. If you had not only would this process happen in heaven with Jesus be easier, but life on earth would have been easier and more loving (you can see this clearly now, but you could not on earth due to your pride)
Catholics call this personal 1-1 time with Jesus purgatory. Even most Christians deny it. But as I said above, what is true it true regardless of whether you have heard of it or believe in.
When Jesus died on the cross he descended into Hades and baptised all the souls there - Abraham and Moses and countless millions more. He will do the same for the person who dies today without ever havjng heard his name.
He has all bases covered. Of that I am sure. Exactly how I cannot know for sure.
@@johnsalamito6212 Thank you for taking the time. This sounds like universalism?
"this is not a nice process, it is searing to your soul to feel and understand this love"
Why? The souls were created to understand that love, surely?
"when jesus died on the cross he descended into hades and baptised all the souls there"
How are there any souls in hades if everyone meets jesus when they die? Wouldn't everyone, even pre-linguistic humans from two millions years ago, get the training session and succeed?
@ No I am not a Universalist. People/souls reject Jesus. They condemn themselves to live without him (this is hell) but he always invites them to the wedding feast. Many gospel parables describe this.
@johnsalamito6212 why do souls reject the definitionally good?
Fr. Pine is sprinkling some subtle jokes here and there 😆 he's truly a gift haha
Two super intelligent introverts making each other squirm and feel awkward for an hour and a half while sitting way too close for comfort. Entertainment at its best! But on a serious note: very impressed by Fr Pine's arguments!
This is my second time listening to this… what a delightful conversation between two brilliant minds. I would love to see these two dialogue for a multi hour conversation and on a series of such topics. Absolutely fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing this with us.
Words will only take you so far. If you want to know what a pomegranate tastes like, reading about it, debating about it, quantifying it's mineral content, will never let you know its flavor. You must taste it. Experience it. There are many spiritual paths that will bring you an experience. They take practice, devotion, and sacrifice. A YT video won't cut it.
None of which you have ever done.
@snowflakemelter1172 look everyone ☝️, a troll has revealed his ignorance to the internet.
@@CaptainPhilosophical thanks for proving me right.
However, other people do this for other religions, and would say that they experience their god/gods. What this would show, is that humans are capable of ‘feeling/ experiencing the power of their almighty’ despite it being wrong (either the Christians are correct, or the Hindus etc).
So devoting yourself the way you say could be more dangerous. , if it led to covertig to a different religion.
This would link with what Alex commented on towards the beginning. Westerners would be more likely to ‘try’ Christianity first, and Thais would be more likely to devote themselves to Buddhism first. It seems unfair?
Similarly, how can you personally garuntee that Hinduism/ Buddhism etc isn’t the right path if you haven’t spent time devoting yourself to that religion?
@aidanhazard5529 there are no Gods in the core of teaching of Buddhism , though it's wildly corrupted through different sects and cultures who have added stuff the idea of a God is a delusion created by thought in Buddhism.
I really enjoy Fr. Pine's dry humor. It keeps you on your toes! These are two very daper and sophisticated gentlemen.
The Lord tells us not to judge what is in other people's hearts, what they felt in their hearts we have no access to outside of what the text suggests, which is that they knew it was not what they were told to do, and they did it anyways, and that Adam and Eve both sloughed the blame onto other things and did not take responsibility for their actions.
That they were not "at fault" for disobediance seems to be a projection.
If I look at my own heart, it is obvious to me that I carry the same traits. I know someone told me not to do something, yet I knowingly abrogate it, or keep to it.
Looking closely at the punishments alotted out to the 3 characters, they are the seeds of their redemption.
Man and women learn to be selfless and patient in suffering through them, and the serpant loses his potency to harm us.
Conner says he knows what he would choose now given the choice of a palace and a hovel, and he knows he chooses the hovel.
He seeks the palace narrative to justify itself first, before being able to make that choice. You've skipped ahead, by saying he chose the hovel. He can't choose something he isn't convinced exists, anymore than you could willingly choose to believe in another religion's claims simply because they claim it top down dogma style in their scriptures. You'd seek bottom up data, hopefully. That's what he is doing, and not finding. He's seeking, but not hearing a response. The thing the scripture says to do and will get a response on... So how's he to know it is true if it can't self validate itself via the methods it claims should work? How long do you keep trying something from a guidebook that you can't verify the claims within of, when you do try doing what it says to do, you get no results.
When do we move to the view that continually trying and getting no results would be like using an old science book, thinking miasma was the cause of all diseases, to understand microbiology at that point?
Ale'x's questions are clear and concise, whereas Gregory Pine's are convoluted and complex, not easy to follow and understand.
Yay! My favourite athiest! Us Catholics love you Alex 😂
Love you Alex, saying this as a believer, even when you were more of a new atheist, I believe you're the only New atheist skeptic Ive seen that actually makes an effort to have good faith discussions. You being vegan at least back then also made me a fan. Been a 11 year vegan now.
59 minutes in and convinced Pine has a magnificent vocabulary of word-salad
My thoughts exactly.
This is like Richard Dawkins trying to explain evolution to Jordan Peterson. It seems that divine hiddeness is brought up and then the other guy just starts talking about life and ignoring the topic at hand. Not saying he’s disingenuous, just that it felt like he really didn’t respond to Alex’s argument or that if he thinks he did, it didn’t come through while watching.
Yeah, it seems like none of Alex's questions were actually answered. I wonder if any Catholics even notice this or are just so biased they can't see it.
I can see it
@@jonny6man If you read the comments, most of them failed to see it :/
@@xaviervelascosuarez Does listening to the non-answers push you further away from being Catholic?
@jonny6man Not at all. I've thought long and hard about these questions and I've found answers much more clear and compelling.
That said, I had seen Fr. Pine before, and I admire his profound knowledge and remarkable mastery of the English language. He seemed tense and overly cautious in this conversation. Because of my previous familiarity with his ideas and ways, I probably understood more than most, but I can see why he could come across as verbose and evasive. I also think his condition as a Dominican friar, together with his youth and reluctance to step outside of the Thomistic tradition may limit his capacity to explore more creative answers better fitted to modern sensibilities.
We need to have more of these types of dialogs in regard to understanding and belief that show compassion and respect the way this conversation was executed.
Fr Pine did a great job, in the sense that I think he tried to stick purely to philosophy/reason, and only bringing in faith when absolutely necessary. Not an easy task when the answer I think to Alex’s question, in the light of faith, is that everyone who seeks will find, everyone who knocks will have the door opened. I also appreciated his altering of several of Alex’s arguments by allegory. Those are really slippery because they’re so narratively convincing, but pointing out that certain details aren’t right, like the apartment vs palace, is really good (like the violinist argument for abortion, which has a lot of discrepancies between its narrative and how someone actually gets pregnant and what the relationship between the mother and child is from the beginning).
Alex is also super great. He’s definitely in the New Atheist vein but with a lot more openness. I think for both his arguments to work, he’d essentially have to claim divine omnipotence. He continually says we can imagine someone who sincerely seeks and doesn’t find, but our ability to imagine it doesn’t mean that person actually exists. I can imagine a unicorn without it existing. Similarly, the problem of pain necessitates a kind of omnipotence to say whether or not good comes from it/it’s worthwhile. As people, it’s clear we have an extraordinary ability to actually grow through pain.
I also wonder what Alex’s notion of free will is. He sometimes seems to have the very modern view that much of what we do is dependent, perhaps completely, on our surroundings, yet that jettisons the idea of free will, of the ability to choose friends, or colleges, or ultimately, God. The person in his example who chooses a college because they’re predisposed to liking the color of the ceilings at the college doesn’t strike me as someone with free will. I can have a predisposition to liking bread, and certainly that makes it difficult for me to give it up, but I can give up bread willingly if I want to, say, for weight loss, or for religious sacrifice, which ties into Pine’s point about hierarchal ordering of desires. I could have a predisposition, even a genetic one, to alcoholism, and yet, I can get through that, first by accepting the authority of a higher power, which again ties into hierarchal ordering.
The body language in this is interesting
It's quite telling
How so?
Crossing thine arms is readily the sign of the devil
C.S. Lewis "Great Divorce" is the best illustration of how easy it is to choose hell, even if they know for sure and are currently experiencing hell itself, I've ever read.
Its easy to pursue an intermediate good to a bad end, as an overbearing mother, or a vindictive employee, or a prideful intellect, over an absolute good that will annihilate that position of a distorted good, whether its the nuturing instinct, personal justice, or studiousness and curiosity.
In fact, we do it constantly. God help us.
What absolute goods is a vindictive employee eschewing from?
@j8000 justice
@@wasumyon6147 Can you illustrate with an example?
Alex sees God as being far, while God keeps sending people his way to guide him
You know Alex is a professional UA-camr, right?
It could be God sending people his way, but I suspect the fact that Alex listens to a lot of people about God has at least as much to do with Alex's desire (and that of most of his respondents) for a steady stream of viewers.
If only he sent one with any good evidence or argument for his existence.
In 5 years when he's still agnostic, the rhetoric will be "even after all these people God sent to guide him, he's still resisting the truth".
As if quantity equals quality - or truth for that matter.
@@DavidWalker1 He did say this in this very video, he did say that maybe he is doing it for the views, he doesn't want to see himself as doing that, yet he accepts that unconsciously he could be doing it for the wrong reasons, I have no reason to believe either position. I can't read hearts.
@@LayDownAndRot It just worsens his judgement if he doesn't come to accept the truth, since he won't have the excuse of having no one telling him anything and that he did everything out of ignorance, in the end the issue is about trust, not about data.
I found Fr Pine's responses very cryptic and difficult to stay engaged with. In some passages he goes on and on in every direction while the questions/observations from Alex were very precise and clear.
I couldn’t agree more.
Pune attempts to come across as some intellectual esotericist, in reality of course he sounded like a complete dckhead spouting absolute gobbledygook
Yes definitely. I don't see how any neutral and rational person wouldn't see just how utterly incomprehensible the monk was. The Christian monk’s vagueness and tendency toward obscurantism rendered him nearly incomprehensible, especially when compared to Alex’s articulate and persuasive reasoning. Listening to the monk's incoherent rambling was both tiresome and frustrating.
While I am a Catholic Fr p would not be my favourite ....but then he is a young man and has a bit more reflection to do perhaps.. Aquinas was a great and subtle mind ...but many who used his writings were not .
Wow. Lord Jesus have mercy! What an amazing conversation. God is sitting right in front of Alex. What if Hell is the Absolutely Nothing he expects, but you feel every minute of it forever?
So, just to lighten things up a tiny bit. I was actually told a joke on Monday night by a... Jesuit Cardinal.
The Holy Spirit is sitting around with the rest of the Trinity, and Jesus says to him, "So what's going on, man?"
Holy Spirit: "Meh, I think I'm gonna take a couple of weeks' vacation."
God the Father Almighty: "You need it. Where you off to?"
Holy Spirit: "I'm goin to Rome."
Jesus: "Rome?! For vacation? But you're not gonna get any peace there, bro."
Holy Spirit: "Sure I will, I've been before. They have all these councils, and synods, and committees, and they ALL invoke my name at the very beginning of their meetings, but then never mention me again and don't give me another thought! It's really peaceful!"
I'll be here all week.
😂
I like how Fr. Pine approached the inquisitor's questions from the divine perspective, not a human one.
God's logic is wider and deeper than our common ways of thinking about equality, justice, etc.
You invented a " Gods logic" to try and get around the fact that logical thought fails in your beleif . The same trick as pretending there is another alternative mathematics because your answers are wrong.
@@snowflakemelter1172Nah, OP is spot on
@snowflakemelter1172 if you humble yourself, logic will present itself to you
LoL, so where do you draw your moral and ethical values from since you clearly don't understand your g0ds mysterious ways?❓
@@satoshiumei4622 we always have to do more, it is always our fault, never god's blah blah
I couldn't help but feel at times that Alex was almost desperate for a reason to believe. A smoking gun that would flip the switch in his brain from non-believer to believer.
I pray that he one day finds his way into Jesus's loving embrace.
I see this too and am rather disheartened at the comments perceiving him as disingenuous.
You have entirely invented " Jesus loving embrace" in your own mind, it's not even historically certain he even existed, it's a fantasy created after his supposed death. Do you not see that all other relegious beleivers in human history felt the same about their gods and what that means ?
Even if he doesn’t “find” his way, I imagine religious nationalism will force him into it.
“When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”
Benjamin Franklin
@snowflakemelter1172 it's not historically certain that anyone existed unless you personally knew them. But we have more reason to believe that Jesus existed than to believe that almost anyone from his period existed, given the wealth of people writing about him
@harrywingfield4285 the " wealth" of people with first hand accounts and not repeating a myth is what number ?
Thanks Alex - I hope pray He reveals Himself to you soon. When you stand on this side of Heaven the signs says - All are welcome! When you pass through the veil on the other side of the sign says 'I chose you before the beginning of creation.' I used to say to anyone truly concerned whether they would go to hell - your concern shows you are already with Him. In the reverse - those who try to prove GOd intellectually and cannot find HIm but never worry for their Sole destination are clearly not interested in what God cares about
Great conversation. I didn't know of Fr. Pine prior to this, but he seems like a great guy.
Thank you Fr Pine
When considering whether to believe in Christianity or not, I used to do things like compare Genesis to modern science. But some Christians interpret Genesis much more figuratively than others, so that when you do this kind of thing, you often find that the goal posts move. So, eventually, I decided that I have to judge Christianity by its own standards to see if it is internally consistent.
The thing I get stuck on is that there is so much confusion in the church. Christians disagree on a lot of things. They disagree on how you are saved, where the church is, the meaning of baptism/the communion etc. But they all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But if the same voice were communicating with all of them, why wouldn't they believe the same things? So, the most I can possibly believe is that maybe Jesus was God and he spoke to us a while ago to get the message out, but that most Christians cannot expect to have a personal relationship with God in this life. In this case, God can't possibly be interested in very specific professions of faith or very specific theology/Christology/doctrine of being saved (or else he would not allow the confusion on these topics). This would be consistent with the fact that Jesus spoke much more about how to behave properly than about Christology.
I have come up with plausible solutions to the problem of evil and to divine hiddenness (if you allow for a fairly hands-off God) in my own mind, but just because something is plausible doesn't mean that it's uniquely true.
I think that Jesus left us a church, when he gave Peter authority. I think we brought all this confusion on ourselves when people decided to go their own way with the Protestant reformation. Now, I'm not saying protestants cannot be true Christians.
Ima end up watching this another 10 times
37:25 Alex perfectly articulates the heart of the issue within the immorality and untenable nature of ECT.
He's not alone here either, George MacDonald shared similar thoughts, and is expressed beautifully in his work Lilith. C.S. Lewis, loving MacDonald, took heavy inspiration as well, in his writing the Great Divorce.
42:43 This response here, taken to it's logical conclusion, would condemn mentally challenged people to an eternity of conscious torment. But not only that, it would revivify the old RCC position, that babies, specifically unbaptized babies, go to hell.
No matter how soft spoken Greg may be, this is actually, definitionally, an evil belief.
I feel like I just watched two people throw a loaded pistol back and forth for 2 hours, wow. Great job recognizing that they are some of the best in this realm of discussion and getting them to have a conversation! That was awesome
There were glorious moments there where I instinctively clapped in praise of the beauty of God's plan as Fr. Pine explained. Thank you Fr. Pine for remaining humble and carefully and consciously discerning the Holy Spirit's guidance. Thank you Alex for asking the questions! 🙂
Which he entirely made up .
@snowflakemelter1172 no, he didn't make them up. However, you can argue his sources (the gospel writers, St. Paul, Moses, etc.) did.
He did not answer the first question! Why are 90% of the Thais going to hell because they are Buddhist/atheist? (Essentially what Alex O Connor was asking-he was far more tactful and intelligent, but that is what he wanted answered).
This gentleman didn’t even it attempt it directly. What are you missing?
Let's go Fr. Gregory! ❤
Personally, I see a lot of subtle pride centered around "I" and "me". someone from an atheistic background may not find this destructive when seeking God, but what everyone needs to understand is that a lot of lukewarm Christians don't have this divine experience because of pride. Reading books like "little flowers of St Francis can give you an idea of how deep humility can go, or just go and watch the movie "The reluctant saint" and weigh on where you stand in humility before we complain about the divine hiddenness.
It goes along with "turn the other cheek" A clever ploy of the Romans to invent JC as a secret agent, when all they wanted if for the Jews to obey, worship the same gods, and pay their taxes to the empire
Instead of asking God for faith with true humility, they reproach Him for lacking it! They believe that only with their dying reason will they reach God, as if God were an idea that could fit into our small heads...
And we must not think that those who do not have faith in God stop having faith. This faith simply transforms and mutilates itself to adapt to other things, like thinking that reason is sufficient to explain all reality.
"My word and world holds ground and is real
Your word is like floods of poisoned water
A language spoken
With spit from different tongues"
For an atheist he thinks and talks about God more than your average christian.