Edictum Conferences: Tom Holland - Why I changed my mind about Christianity
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Title: Why I changed my mind about Christianity
Speaker: Tom Holland (historian & author of Dominion)
November 17, 2022 - Cluj-Napoca
This recording is part of a series recorded during the Edictum Dei 10 event that took place in November 2022, in Cluj-Napoca, Romania.
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Tom Holland is a treasure. One of the most insightful blends of history and sociology ever. American Roman Catholic here. Thank you ❤.
@pamelavarilone2614 • As a fellow Roman Catholic, I entirely agree with you ✝️
but christianity not true ?
@@TeresaEAnn: Same here! (From an English Roman Catholic!).
His description of a crucifixion is heartbreaking. That he did that for us is beyond comprehension. I’m so thankful.
I agree, it was so profound and moving that it evokes a sense of great protectiveness towards Christianity
I’m so thankful that Christianity ushered in the era of burning at the stake for sedition rather than the taboo of crucifixion.
He didn’t choose to be crucified, the Roman’s crucified him for committing treason.
@@jackhallander6706Jesus Christ is lord ✝️☦️🙏
@@jackhallander6706 good point .it seems for the blokes in power ,just about anything goes for those that they consider are opposing them "because they are opposing god and i've elected myself as judge ,jury and executioner .[with extreme prejudice ]. have a read of my favourite exjesuit ,ian guthridge with his "the rise and decline of the christian empire" in some cases when they were after the chief [if the chief got saved the whole tribe was in ] they were as bad as pablo escobar as in "the money or the lead "with their saved or be killed which meant swearing allegiance to whoever had elected him self as god's no 1 rep.
but still loved toms speech and he did have some great points .
it touched me in some undefinable way.thanks tom
It is like a love letter to Christianity - sobering, informative and tender.... thank you Tom Holland!!
I agree! He’s wonderful ❤
Brilliant conference and a great tribute to Christianity.
However I mildly disagree with the defeat of Fascism. Nazism was destroy and became a nanowave of continuous evil. Comunism is mildly alive but hiden in the higher education abd culture but embeded in all of them Western World and China we can see the marriage of Socialism, Capitalism and Fascism with big brush of Agnosticism, and Ateism. Remember during the WWII Germany was National Socialism the USSR was Intetnational Socialism and Italy was Fascist Socialism. Please read Kardejl a Socialist from Yugoslavia that said that ....
The Ultra right is the mirror image of the Ultraleft.
In Godfather 3 in the mouth of the Cardenal he says to Michael el padrino..." Europe is a rock immersed in a fountain of Christianity but as a rick it is impermeable of its surrounding" Jesus never intended Social Justice the new "moral" injected as a Christian thought jn the West that is Macchiavelan
Only, Christians aren't fooled!
Who can come after the Christ, but the Antichrist? It’s Islam + Communism.The Era of the Great Slavery is coming. The blood will flow like a river.....
I have both praise and critics. Thanks for sevearal great ideas - noticing cycle vs religio by philosopher Augustin, use of “last will be first” by Marx and fallacy of the liberation theology to build heavens on earth which has been NEVER promissed in the Bible. Remarks about fascism and simmilarities with communism are great! If covard politicians of West would clearly said that communism of Soviet union was as bad if not worse than fascism, there would not be such an ignorance among youth and universities that do woke things and de facto praize neo-marxism - a satanic ideas of changing world by means of mens’ socio-political engineering based on fallacious idea that common good (of a class of the last) is more valuable and worse of sacrificing good, freedom and even human right to live for a specific individual. Clearly satanic idea to change the world. BTW Joseph Stalin has received some christian education as well as Karl Marx.
but… In 55:11 you just said about so - getting rid of any superstition is deep christian idea - and from the context one could derive that you are assuming this can be generalized to - getting rid of any superstition INCLUDING LIVING GOD, JESUS AND HOLY SPIRIT?
In your view - to which denomination and christian tradition it applies? Let me guess - Probably in those who cherish philosophy of Augustine? Did you realize what you just said? Jesus teaches - from the fullness of your heart the mouth speaks.
Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
This means you have probably lost your way, sorry! Repent! In Jesus name! 🙏
This might happen if theorizing becomes more important than the truth of the Word of God. This phenomena exists when believers are such by hearing of the word and not by doing the word, not loving the God from all your heart,soul,strength,mind. Tertullian did not warn in vain that Church of Christ lead by the Spirit is being converted by bishop of Rome into church lead by bishops (by men). And these are deads by satan. For this reason he was excommunicated - he being the first Latin father of church.
What a wonderful lecture based on such an in-depth historical and moral foundation. Thank you Mr Holland for your insight and wisdom. Thank you to the organisers for organising this public lecture.
God is up to something special in this hour. Some of the most powerful, prophetic, articulate, and wonder inspiring "preachers" of the Gospel of the Kingdom are stragglers, winnowing around the edges of the wheat field.
????
What do you mean ?
Very poetically put.
Tom's one of the greatest historians - and (importantly) communicators of history even to those who do not (as I do) naturally seek it out - alive today, his work is a great mix of hardcore genuine academic work and accessible and pleasurable writing.
Thank you Tom Holland. I have bought your book and given it to my agnostic son who is reading it. Your book is informative and very readable. Again, Thank you.
Wow. So great. Best talk and q&a on Dominion by Tom so far
I have waited almost 62 years to hear this. The last lines were also the most powerful. Thank you Tom!
Amazing. Tom is a walking encyclopedia !
Stunningly coherent and useful presentation. Brilliant Q&A too!
I wrote this commentary to Holland's talk and I thought I would share it with the world ;-) It was a fascinating lecture and it was the first thing that came into my mind upon waking the next morning. I was so impressed by it, that I've decided to send this to all ex-students on my old email lists, which I have not done in a long while. I hope you read this and listen to his speech, even though I would not call him a true Christian! He covers everything from crucifixion and the evils of Mohammedanism to the pre- and post-Christian worlds. Nietzsche is also in there. The aspect I would like to comment on is one that I have spoken of before: Liberalism is Christianity without God. Ironically, I have Yuval Hariri, the Israeli, atheist, left-wing, sociologist, who wrote Sapiens, to thank for making me realize this. He did not actually phrase it this way, but that's the gist of it. Holland talks about how "atheists are like goldfish swimming in Christian waters" and do not even realize it. I have experienced this in my debates with some liberal ex-students, debates which have cost me their friendship. They have accused me of being out of touch with reality, blinded by my faith in a God that does not exist or Who I have incorrectly understood. The ironic thing is, that all the arguments they make about the liberal order, democracy and human rights all derive from Christianity and that they would never think what they think in 2024 AD without the dawn of that religion 2000 years ago. Holland compares the words of Jesus and St. Paul to "depth charges" dropped beneath the surface of Greco-Roman society and that we are still feeling the "ripple effects" of these explosive words in our own day.
Liberalism
The beliefs of modern liberalism all have their roots in Christianity. As you know, Liberalism comes from libertas, freedom, but it is also connected to liberi, the "free-born children" of antiquity, who had rights as Roman citizens. We sometimes call the study of the humanities the "liberal arts", not because they are a study of liberty, but because these are the subjects traditionally taught to these sons of free Roman citizens and Roman nobility. Free-born men who had rights is key here. In the Roman Empire and under Roman law, only citizens had rights. In the Kingdom of Christ, under His Law of Love, all having been freed from sin, become citizens of Heaven and heirs to the Kingdom. The ideas of human rights, including women's rights, equality, and the freedom of the individual, in general, but also the specific sense of the free will of Christianity as opposed to the inescapable Fate the Greeks and Romans believed in -- all of these come from the Christian tradition. As St Paul writes: "Jew or Greek, slave or free, woman or man no more, but all are one (and equal) in Christ Jesus." The pagan Greco-Roman world was based on slavery, oppression and "might makes right". Human life was cheap and disposable. Today we are reverting to a neo-paganism in which the weakest members of society are disposed of for being inconvenient, especially at the start and finish of natural life. The traditional Western respect and concern for the weak, comes from the image of Our Suffering Savior and the martyrs who followed in His footsteps...from a Faith in which "God's power is made perfect through weakness."
Women had it much worse than after the conversion of the Empire to Christianity. Feminism can also trace its roots to Christianity, a religion which elevated marriage to the level of a sacrament in which both men and women had equal rights and claims over each others' bodies. The reverence and devotion given to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God in a way, elevated women above ordinary men, but when the divine masculinity of Christ is taken out of the picture, we are left with radical feminism's attempt to place women entirely above men, imposing a matriarchal dictatoress-ship and a unnatural disdain for motherhood. It is because of the Christian idea that each person is "made in the image and likeness of God" with an immortal soul and has immense dignity and value, that we have modern democracy, which holds that each individual matters and should have a voice and therefore, a vote. However, without God, liberal democracy will self-implode and open the door to a second round of atheistic totalitarianism, post-Stalin and Hitler.
This brings me to the conclusion that when God is taken out of the equation, all of these positive values: freedom, equality etc., are perverted and taken to radical and self-destructive extremes. Holland mentions that Nietzsche wrote that without Christian faith, one cannot maintain Christian morality. This is true, because without an absolute God as an unchanging moral constant, we will gradually make ethical compromises and our morals will go down the toilet, which is what we are seeing today. The same applies to the political and social values of today's liberalism. Without God as a rudder and anchor, we will drift away towards an eventual and total shipwreck.
Communism and Secularism
Holland correctly demonstrates that Communism and Secularism surprisingly and paradoxically have their roots in Christian soil. Christ said: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's", dividing the world into two spheres, the spiritual and temporal (secular). St. Paul tells Christians to "honour and obey the king (even if pagan) and to pay taxes," because "all authority is from God." Christ also told one of His disciples to bring "two swords", which would be enough for their mission. This verse was developed into the Doctrine of the Two Swords, one spiritual, the other temporal. This is why Europe never fell into theocracy like in Islam or Buddhist Tibet. The spiritual and temporal worked together and supported each other in a type of marriage, but always remained distinct, despite their cooperative union. Without God the secular sphere has made man into a false god, an idol to be worshipped in the religious cult of human rights as he tries to rebuild the Tower of Babel in order to invade Heaven and usurp God's throne.
In Communism, the Christian roots are even clearer, but the perversion deeper. As Christ said: "The first shall be last and the last shall be first". Again and again He speaks of the poor and the oppressed and how "theirs is the Kingdom of God." We need only to look at the religious fervor and dogmatism of the Communism of the 20th century to see that this ideology was more of a religion than a political philosophy. The Communists took the Christian concept of equality before God offered by Christ to godless extremes, forgetting that Christ's Kingdom "was not of this world" and His words that "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Communism, like Christ, gave free bread to thousands, but it ignored the fact that "man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." Without God and ignoring the spiritual needs of man, they tried to bring about a humanistic Heaven on earth, which quickly became a Hell. Holland talks about Communist iconoclasm echoing back to the French Revolution, the Protestant Rebellion, and all the way back to early Christianity and even Judaism in which the idols and shrines of false gods were destroyed to free people of superstition and magic, thus enlightening them. I would add the examples of Islamism, which some see as a "Christian heresy", as reaction against Christian images and then the self-destructive Christian Iconoclasm of the Byzantine Era, which was clearly influenced by the preceding heresy of Mohammed. This idea of tearing down idols, both physical and ideological, to attain enlightenment and salvation, is a Judeo-Christian one.
Nationalism
Holland does not mention this, but I would add it. Going back to the Old Testament, we see that the Israelites were a "chosen nation" raised above all others as part of the covenant with Abraham, of whom God promised to make the greatest nation, God's own holy people and royal priesthood. The first Christians saw the Catholic Church as the New Israel and themselves as the inheritors of the Abrahamic promises in a spiritual and universal sense. Despite this universality, I think that the idea that one's own tribe or nation is somehow special with a special mission can, in this sense, be traced back to Judeo-Christian roots. Again and tragically, without God, we have seen how toxic and destructive nationalism can be.
So in conclusion, dear agnostics and atheists who may be reading this commentary, as hard as you may try, you will never escape the influence of Christianity on your thought and world-view. You are goldfish in a fish bowl, trapped in Christian waters, sucking in Christian values through your gills. However, as time goes on, the goldfish may jump out of their bowl...but that would mean certain death. This "strange death" as Douglas Murray calls it, is what awaits us if we do not replant this precious "cut flower" of Western Civilization in its native, nutrient-rich Christian soil. As Nietzsche prophetically warned us, great and horrible convulsions would occur with the "death of God", which we saw in the 20th century. Are there more violent convulsions and upheavals to come or will the West cling to and attempt to replant the last remaining Christian roots as it begins to value that which it is losing? And if so, will this realization come too late? For the meantime, you may prefer the cheap, fake imitation of Liberalism, but I will stick to the original Faith of Jesus the Christ. Amen +
Afterall, It's actually us Christians who change the world and who DID change the world. We can not rely on the Godless people to change the world, whoever they are. Never forget "We are the Light of the world ... and the Salt of the Earth." There really is no one out there who has the True Light: Christ Jesus!. So, let them come back to us, not us going to them. May the Lord bless you and keep you; and be gracious to you. and shine his face upon you. Numbers 6:24-26
Thank you for sharing your writings , I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and happen to agree with you 100%.
My faith is in the birth, life, death and resurrection of our wonderful Lord and Saviour, it is him alone who was sent to save this world, our job is to share this good news with man kind.
The world is a dark place with so much evil , and the day of the Lords return is near. We must do our work before it is too dark .
God bless you
@@angelakuru3914 Thank you Angela. We must let the Light shine in the darkness. In the words of St. Francis, the light of one single candle cannot be overcome by all the darkness in the world!❤🔥
Spectacular. Humble. Honest. Brilliant.
What he said matches perfectly why Christianity overtook the pagans in the Roman Empire. When the beggars asked for food, the Christians gave it to them because of charity to their neighbor. When the beggars asked for food, the pagans ignored them because it was the destiny of the beggar to beg and die.
Nietzsche fell in love with this savage philosophy. What good is society if we despise each other?
But if one is not a beggar, a community is just future beggars in the making. In the US now, there is far less sense of a community than what I recall 30-40 years ago.
Several years ago in what I think was Tropical Storm Agnes - east coast US - Governor Christie (New Jersey) gave a TV talk about looking after your neighbor. At the same time, the Pennsylvania governor - name forgotten - said that everyone was on their own. A state governor said that.
It has gotten worse since then. God save America.
Ayaan Hirsi-Ali credits Tom Holland’s book, “Dominion”, with her decision to accept the Christian narrative as the way to make sense of her life and to promote a healthy society.
She does indeed. Good spot. 😊
I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
take a look at Vishal Mangalwadi's "The Book That Made Your World" for similar research coming from an Eastern perspective. Even more profound insights on how Science is totally dependent upon Genesis. Prior to Genesis, mankind was scared of his surroundings.. the idea that God gave creation to man as a gift, to be a steward of, and to take dominion over is a complete novel concept. Christian monks are the first ones enamored with the natural world and begin studying it, as they operate safely inside a narrative that everything is "good" and that it operates according to "laws" that emanate from a "lawgiver"
I just watched her on Treggernometry, where she references Tom's Book and Lectures, which led me here.
The idea of the law of God being written on the heart is also found in the Old Testament, where authors write about the circumcision of the heart.
Yeah. They lop off part of the ventricle.
Pray for India and Nepal. Giving Bible is greatest gift to every believer who are in need.
Go worship Horous. Christians and Christianity is joke.
@@cullenkehoe5184 yes, it first created in 19th century. People who use that old stuff must be a new comer atheist.
Myths folklore about a Himalayan King and Queen would capture the mindsets during Greco Roman era after the Maurya Gupta suzerainty.
Make it the New Testament as the rest is full of violence, seduction etc sadly!
Pray for India Nepal. Pray for Nepali Churches in Bangalore.
Yes, that is true, a love letter to Christ the Lord.
Oh, so you imagine just because Tom Holland has succeeded in fooling men, he can fool God too?! Well, carry on deluding yourself if that is what you choose, given to deception as to deceive the lot of you are.
I can listen to him forever
Tom Holland ending expose with Christianity being the seedbed of what the Western World hails TRUTH. I certainly share concern Mr. Holland expresses what will Earth be without what the West has done to enrich, contribute to and defend the World.
Certainty in the God of Abraham, as a Christian is one thing. Self knowledge can be quite another. Tom's self confidence and knowledge as a historian is as enjoyable and remarkable, as it is freeing!
absolutely riveting. great job mr holland
Well, a couple of points: 1) I don't think St. Paul was "haunted" (28.45 ) or perplexed by the cross; Paul had direct experience of Christ and perhaps more than any other disciple, knew what it meant & why it was necessary. 2) Yes, communism emulated some of Christianity's teachings (e.g. "universal brotherhood of man"), but ultimately perverted them in the most brutal and deadly ways. Totalitarian communism was in fact far more deadly than Italian or Spanish totalitarian fascism. 3) Christianity has sown the seeds of its own demise? Ok, so Christianity calls for abandoning false idols (actually it's the first Commandment), but that in no way implies that Christianity has been complicit in Atheists condemning Christian symbols. Rather, what has most contributed to the demise of Christian belief has been materialism, modernism, and scientism.
The next question would be, what created science? It came out of christian countries and people who were christian for a reason.
Modernity too.
I guess the problem isn't stopping worship of idols but taking that 2 steps further and destroying said tree or rock or symbol.
If nothing is sacred, well, then nothing is sacred.
@@colinthomson5358 God created science.
Christianity has inherent cause for its demise because ultimately it offers a choice between spiritual and secular. Such a choice emphasises individaul freedom. It doesn't root for a theocratic model which negates individualism.
The very freedom Christianity offers can be its undoing .Holland's interpretation is guided by this perspective.
Thank you
So what is the answer? "Give all your goods to the poor and follow me" Very few people are willing to do this. Only the ones who do have my respect.
Just WOW!
The Q & A is tremendous!
Tom Holland is one of the most intellectually honest historians writing these days. He may not (yet) believe in the Truth of Jesus Christ's Resurrection, but he still manages to spread the Holy Spirit with speeches like this one. Brilliant.
There was no resurrection.
@@busterbiloxi3833 prove it
@@Sharkman1963 The burden of proof is on you.
@@busterbiloxi3833 Nope. Burden is on you. I've had it proved to my satisfaction.
@@Sharkman1963 How laughable! Not proven at all. Have the desert God meet me, and Elvis and JFK and Jimmy Hoffa and Big Foot at a diner on I-85 and THEN I'll believe it.
Thank you it's sharable and very listenable love the way you sum it all up, and the message of salvation so easily misunderstood if not taken in with a childlike faith
All recent Popes have warned against secularisation….but we must always trust in the Holy spirit and have Hope
What a wrap-up! The last answer by Tom Holland was marvelous! The entire lecture was fascinating.
Thank you so much, brilliant
Jesus Christ is the King of kings and the ONLY way to HEAVEN!
Praise the living God!
God Bless you and your family!
Hagia sofia was first a Christian cathedral before it ever became a mosque, hence its shape and the Christian mosaics.
Hagia Sofia was a church built by the Greeks before being stolen by Turkey
He has the profoundest insight when he says that the Cross is the central and pivotal event in human history.
An interesting discussion that’s discussing the broader effects upon society that Paul and the gospels have had upon it. And this will always be fascinating to those with thinking or analytical minds.
Therefore we can say and agree that society as a whole, inclusive of those who have chosen to be disciples of Jesus, have benefited from this civilising influence that encompasses higher levels of mercy, more so than was previously known.
However to particularly benefit from this influence, over and above the overall influence, one should be compelled to be a believer in Jesus, if they actually do believe the resurrection happened, as did the early Christians.
And those who believe in the resurrection will also believe the words of scripture namely those of Jesus.
Also it’s fascinating along with being somewhat disturbing, what Jesus said about Hell. And if that’s not enough, He goes on to say that only few will actually become His true disciples.
Jesus also teaches that those who lead decent lives without becoming His followers will perish and not inherit everlasting life.
It seems that love of God and obedience to God are one and the same. How can we have one without the other.
Therefore is it right to say that those who profess to love God but do not obey Him, actually love God? Or should one call oneself a Christian if they don’t believe the teachings of Jesus sufficiently enough to embrace them, by obeying them?
Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
1 Corinthians 1:26 KJV:
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Jesus Christ, the Lord of us all.
how can you say that ?
Jesus was himself created by God !!!!
As I recall not only did Jesus never say he was god but the two versions of his last words were directed to god not himself. Huh.
😂
@@LuzianJThe word of God, the greatest book according to devout believers, neglected covering what has got to be the most important concept!? Either that or it’s just a book written by religious leaders and the faithful have been dancing around its shortcomings for centuries.
Hallelujah ❤
Thank you for sharing. 😊
Islam is like the ancient religions which did not separate church and state. This may explain both why Muslims seek to leave Islamic nations for the rights and freedoms in the “Christian” nations of the West, and also, perhaps, something that makes it difficult for some Muslim immigrants to assimilate/integrate into Western nations.
Thank you Jesus for this wonderful man of God.🙏
Tom's talk pointed out straightforward to how christian live their lives. Very touching to the mind and heart
Thank you so much! This is worth sharing.
What he said about the two main values of Christianity was very touching. Woke makes suffering a performance and thus needs the fascists or so called far-right enemies around.
Jesus Christ is the symbol of love, joy, peace and sicrifice........he is the beginning of everything
1.05 to 1.15. This is the underlying problem now in France and the UK, probably everywhere in Europe and beyond: the stark realisation that the 'Christian stance' cannot be taken for granted.
Your intellect and very breath are are gift from God to yourself as well as anyone blessed in your hearing. Praying for you and thanking God for you!
I don’t know whether Mr. Holland realizes this but his analysis is evangelizing. God bless him.
Beautiful 🥰🌄
Yes, Tom, the Greeks and Romans had a religion - a belief in the spiritual world, the same sense as we have today.
Not so.
The Romans and Greeks believed in a multitude of God's, all with their own sphere of influence.
@@kimbirch1202 yes, a spiritual world; but not the same spiritual world as the Abrahamics or the zoroastrians or the.Chinese ancestor worship etc.
entirely miss the point.
Fine explanation
Beautifully done!So glad you discovered Christ,Tom!
Ephesians 2;8-9
Salvation is of the Lord .
No one comes to Christ unless God draws him .
Fabulous. Thanks
Enjoyed this much! ❤️
Christianity in the West will not only survive but it will flourish, but only when it stops thinking of Christianity as a Western religion, as the religion of the
West but of universal humanity, of Asia and Africa and Central and Southern America, of Oceania, etc...
Watch Christian Prince podcast !
This man can help us greatly with Christianity.
Absolutely brilliant. Holland makes the same point that Jordan Peterson tried to make in his debate with Sam Harris, when he claimed that Harris is a Christian, but Holland does so with infinitely more historical nuance, and without all the baggage that comes from being a stuck up, polarizing shill for the hard right.
With all due respect to Jordan Peterson and Tom Holland, Sam Harris is not a Christian. Christ's death on the Cross will not save those who deny God. To be a follower of Christ is to take the narrow path of thorns and to carry one's own Cross of suffering for salvation from Death. It is to overcome one's worldly Passions for the Spirit of Life, the Holy Spirit.
Polarizing. Wtf is that supposed to mean?
I never understood completely these arguments that seek to contrast science and religion, the overemphasis on matters of the physical world. And I say this as a chemist, and someone who is an avid student of science and history. But for me, my relationship with Christ was always related with questions related to the human condition, suffering, the meaning of life and how to act in the world.
I believe in Apostolic succesion, the testament of the life of Christ left by his disciples, and that to act according with Christ, to carry our own cross, is the only way we can live with honour and diminish suffering in the world.
I don’t find myself praying for public figures all that often, but I often pray for the soul of Tom Holland and that Christ would reveal himself to him
I thought he identified as Christian?
@@jessicafuss4792 not as of yet to what I've seen. However he is stating that he is in Christianity as a culture. His book is on just how important Christian ideas are to the rise of wester civilization.
Mr Holland’s soul is just fine🇨🇦
😂😂❤❤❤❤😅😂😢❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤😢😢😢😢😢😢😅😢😢😅😢😅🎉❤😢😅😢😮
TH is not good at the magical thinking.
"Almost every book (of the Bible) contains something that has convulsed the world." - Tom Holland
Great talk.
Wonderful presentation. Thank you.
The lesson perhaps is that the Law of God - the vertical is love of God, the horizontal is love of neighbor - is to be followed.
From an historical point of view how Christianity was born into the world and eventually has changed the world because of the power of the crucified Christ is not now to me but what is new to me is that these things are being studied and confirmed by a great historian that we have today in the modern world.
Great speech and rationale! I also went through atheism and misunderstanding of Gospel and Christ's message.. .when I was young. Great achievements (faith in this case) usually don't have shortcuts and easy ways.
So eloquent
for me one of the most powerful things in christianity ,is redemption of a heart and life when you've REALLY FUCKED IT and just about everybody else would throw you away . and for me reading susan atkins book after her disasterous stint with charlie manson ,resulted in the death penalty ,which was reversed because california abolished the death penalty .she turned her life around and her last words were AMEN so her hubby said ..that still makes me cry./
god can take the worst sinner and make a saint out of them.
for me that's one of the GREAT miracles of Christianity .i can't see how you can get more advanced than that.
I've waited long enough.
I work with a Kurd from Sinjar. His family has been there for centuries. No longer. This is lecture is wild to listen to
I am so touched. I am so moved by Mr. Holland's understanding of Christ. And may I share some additional thoughts. For a while I have been thinking that what the communists thought and did was a reaction against the Protestant Rebellion, which gave us our modern economic system called capitalism. The Protestant Rebellion was, and is, a retreat from Christianity, in which profit and individual autonomy was allowed to dominate to the degree that once again It was atheist because everything in the age of its inception, post-Renaissance, post-Enlightenment, was atheist. I never pushed to think that communism consisted of Christian values. And Mr. Holland is right in that, not only from the philosophy of communism, if it may be called such, but in the ordinary communist organizer, living an austere life for the good of the poor. That is how they thought about it in the sixties when I knew them. The Protestant ethos is much closer to the fascist, with no pity for the poor and much worship of power. And may I say further that our only way forward is to identify those economic practices of the Catholic nations before the Protestant Rebellion and many of which may be found in communist or socialist societies, and to press for those *within a restored Catholic society.* Nothing else will work. As Mr. Holland pointed out, you cannot base anything on an ersatz Christianity. It is the real deal, or it will fail. We need both a Christian ethos and a Christian economy. In order to get there, we must actually slay our hatred of communism and our acceptance of Protestantism.
What rot! Martin Luther was moved to write his theses and nail them to the church door in Wittenberg, precisely because of the cruelty and exploitation of the Papacy towards its slaves. Bishops and Cardinals lived lives of luxury, hedonism and even debauchery, all the while demanding absolute obedience from the masses. Inventing a place that is found nowhere in the Bible called Purgatory and promising the people that the more money they paid into the coffers of the RCC, the quicker the dead relatives of these poor people could be set free from this imaginary place.
The Roman Catholic Church has its own historians who conservatively estimate that that institution has killed between one hundred thousand and two hundred thousand people throughout the last 15-16 centuries.
The same institution was responsible for the appalling persecution of Jews throughout the centuries and built the foundation of the general attitude of antisemitism that permeated Europe long before Adolf Hitler was even born.
To be fair, Luther contributed to this as well (which meant that the Jews were hated and persecuted by many Protestants as well as the Vatican) because of his bitterness over the fact that most Jews rejected his attempts to win them over to Christianity. This attitude became more and more anti-Jewish as Luther aged, until his preaching against the Jews was worse than what he had once decried in the RCC.
The problem is that what Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught is not really what is represented in and by most churches today, whether Protestants or Catholics and therein lies the rub.
It’s only when one reads and believes the scriptures and allows what one reads to change the way they act and speak that we see what Jesus was really saying.
Institutionalised Christianity only goes as far as formulating a system of rules, whereas Jesus preached a total change of the heart, the soul, the inner man that is the core of every human being.
Roman Catholicism was head and shoulders above Protestants when it came to amassing wealth (mostly at the expense of the dirt poor) and the RCC is one of the wealthiest institutions on earth, so blaming the Protestants for the cynical cruelty that can be an attribute of Capitalism is woefully incorrect.
You have believed all the lies protestantism told in the 16th century and one day you will stand before judgement. @@BigAl53750
The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin (unbelief in His word and transgression of His law) has brought to the heart of God from who we receive life and every good thing. At the cross Christ took the place that we deserve because of our sins, so that we might have newness of life in Him.
It is intoxicating when someone confirms your belief system from a podium.
Especially when they didn't set out to confirm your belief system but in the process of their studies came to a kind of conversion to your viewpoint!
Wouldve been good to see the slides better on the stage that the audience are seeing. They are an integral part of the talk. Apart from that, Holland romanticizes Christianity, failing to mention that it is responsible for as much intolerance and death and suffering as any other political or religious ideology.
He never answers a question directly. Conversions are rampant in various countries - where they sell Christ to those who are poor and those who are going through bad times
Bet you are rich. Well and good.
Rich man spotted
Lindus Pajeets getting butthurt because of Christianity.
They make it appear too good to be true , Jesus aka man made god will bring all Christians to paradise , even criminals has their place reserved in paradise .
Ohhh i listen to your podcast. :)
So, what is this Edictum Conferences? What does Edictum Dei mean? Anyone, Please, Thanks.
I've not heard of the conference before but the name is Latin for Edict of God
@@davidshanahan6081 Okay.. Thanks so much for responding.❤️
Wasn't the first representation of the cross very similar to the shape it is given to represent the Sun God Shamash(?), and Dionysus is sometimes represented on a cross as it also applies to one of the stories told about him, Celtic crosses are often the same shape as that glyph representing the sun, perhaps early on, people were using these symbols because they were devotees of these Deities rather than considering themselves to be Christians? Jesus seems to have been a very nice Holy Man , but would his cult really have been as influential as it was without various psychotic Emperors having everyone killed who didn't wish to adopt the religion ...and also agreeing to the various dogmas about him that suited them ? There were many pagan cults and philosophical systems that were equally compassionate, in fact probably more so because they were often Vegetarian or Vegan, also pacifist, often celibate and even more extreme renunciants than the Christians...
But it was an interesting talk, thank you.
What on earth makes you imagine that your superficial Zeitgeist 'knowlegde' can hold a candle to Tom Holland's sublime expertise?
Forbearance and Compulsion, The Rhetoric of Religious Tolerance and Intolerance in Late Antiquity. Maijastina Kahlos. Duckworth. The Darkening Age The Christian Destruction of the Classical World. Catherine Nixey Macmillan. I can reference a few books on religious iconography as well if you like but I've got a few thousand books in the flat and they aren't very easy to locate. Personally, I've always had very pleasant and auspicious dream encounters with Christ so I'm not hostile to him, just some of his psychopathic devotees.@@MaartjeTosca
After reading so many of the comments here I am surprised at how gleefully believers want to dance on the grave of the unbelievers.
"The first shall be last and the last shall be first" one usually applies to the Jewish people vis-a-vis the Christians, I hadn't heard it applied to Christ on the Cross, but it seems to fit indeed.
So, did he actually answer the question why he changed his mind about Christianity? I have missed it.
I think it has to do with his previous assumptions about Western Civilization that it was built by the Greeks and the Romans. And then he was utterly suprised when he went back into history and did not find any of the things we take for granted-- like the dignity of the human person, caring for the weak and the marginalized etc. In the ancient world, they brutalized the weak, children, women. So then he realized that it was Christianity that gave us all of the things we take for granted...sexual ethics, romance, chivalry, monogamy etc. Most of which were good things that enables woman to have their dignity, and treated well by men instead of being used purly for sex, and pleasure and discarded. These were Christian virtues that help build Western civilization and now those very virtues is being used by the secular world to attack Christianity.
@@elperinasoswa6772 Thank you for the brief synapsis of Holland's lecture
@Elperina Soda 👋👋
@@elperinasoswa6772 Superb Summary. Thank you
First he like the Romans because they were glamorous. Then he witnessed the cruelties of ISIS and saw what happens if people don’t lead their lives by Christian values.
Obviously he isn’t aware or interested in other cultures that had moral values before Christianity such as Buddhism, Hinduism and Stoicism.
@Paul Wellings-Longmore What is the moral value that could possibly stem from a cowardly, absconding king, who besides the fact that he was just like the rest of the fallen human race born of the cursed seed of the fallen man, failed to be faithful to both his young family and kingdom, only to reappear in distant parts claiming he had attained whatever and spending the rest of his life doing nothing but living on the alms people offered to him? Need I go into the warped & utterly upside down morality of the rest of the idolatrous religions you list? Where does one even pretend comparing these blasphemies with the surpassing Holiness of Christ?
The Shroud of Turin has brought back to the world the sufferings of the Crucifixion.
OK so is Tom Holland a believer in the supernatural or just saying all this stuff affects people even today and he does not think there is a supernatural world?
The latter, quite clearly
Christianity has instrumental value.
@@thejoin4687 What is the value that Christianity offers that a secular humanistic system cannot do then?
@@alicedeen720 Nothing :)
@@thejoin4687 So you said that:
"Christianity has instrumental value"
and I asked what is the difference between Christianity and say a secular humanistic model and you say,
Nothing.
So what say that 'Christianity has instrumental value' when it could be replaced without all the harmful shaming and hate that we see in Christians today.
You don't need a vile book that should be banned in school either and there is simply no pretending that you will see Grandma in heaven one day.
OR have I missed what point you were making?
As human beings we participate in a collective willingness to punish. We justify the punishments that we normalize. When we hear the call to take responsibility for our punishing behaviors and to eliminate punishment as a tool for mechanising social control, we exit the spirit of the present age of normalized barbarity and enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is at hand! The good news is that we can by choice participate in the salvation of the world by becoming actively engaged in saving the world in choosing not to participate in the wide way of our present age of collective inhumanity where discourtesy, disinformation, denial, disorder, destruction and death are routinely normalized in political ambitions for social control.
"The intellect at play." I've only known two other people like this, Simon Shama and Tim Coln.
This misses the purpose of the cross entirely. Jesus was not crucified to show his power over Rome or even the Pharisees. His death was justice for our sins. Which means you and I, if standing in a court room, would be convicted of murder which would result in death as a just punishment. So if you look at Hitler and think you are good, you do not understand your own guilt, or rather you do not understand how your sins have resulted in the death of others. But soon enough we will all be convinced of the blood on our hands.
Edit: I shouldn't say entirely, he does have a good point, the cross is not just about our guilt, there is in fact huge amount of power in the cross. Like God said in Genesis, the cross crushed the serpent. There is great love in this sacrifice, and is not meant to shame us. however there can be no grace without conviction of sin. But it is difficult to see it and honestly takes God to show us.
It is SO wonderful to finally hear a reasonable atheist. As opposed to those-who've never read an actual book on the topic- dismiss it all by talking about a "Chair God in the Sky".
Tom mentions there isn’t really any descriptions of dinosaurs in the Bible. The behemoth creature described Job 40:15-20 seems to fit a description of a Brachiosaurus?
It doesn't sound like Tom is reading his Bible. There is at least one instance maybe two.
Bit of a stretch to think only a brachiosaur would be mentioned...
Crocodile.
@@josephscottadams39 I am not sure he truly understands Christianity either.
@@martybowie if crocodile why would it say “eats grass as an ox….he moveth the his tail like a cedar…” ?
It's a hippopotamus
Who are you really?
Are you a mindless body, separate from the wholeness of life ?
Is your mind at peace ?
If not , why not ?
Do you judge your brothers , and hold grievances?
Or do you easily forgive ?
Can you just sit with contentment, or do you seek and seek in vain for worldly gain ?
Do you love your brothers as your self, or do you compare yourself with seeming others ?
Do you know how to know the Kingdom of Heaven?
Or do you think it lies in a future that never comes ?
What is your purpose in life ?
These questions are what constitutes real religion.
Christianity will be victorious
[Quran 57:29] Thus, the followers of previous scripture should know that they have not monopolized GOD's mercy and grace, and that all grace is in GOD's hand. He bestows it upon whomever He wills. GOD is Possessor of Infinite Grace.
A judeochristian heretic sect created Islam.
Tom Holland can tell you.
I noticed this even in NYC (Manhattan) during 2020. Eventually I realized that, if anything, it’s a Jewish city.
Now that religious priests power is diminished, not before time, a more 'happy clappy' religious view is sometimes expressed claiming that Christianity is good for us and everything good about modern life is due to its influence.
Whether its supernatural claims are true seem curiously not to be questioned.
The reason Renaissance did happen in Europe but not in India, Muslim world nor China, was because Christian world was far more oppressive and thinkers and priests had no way other than revolutionise the Christian values upside down whereas other societies could still breathe and prosper then. The thinkers among Christian priests, (was there any other way to education but being a priest then?), after contact with the East, and humiliated by defeats in the hands of Muslims and finding out how the East and China was so advanced, knew this can not go on and Europe had no way out but turn values upside down.
@@LuzianJ Laugh as much as you want but the revolutions occur because of the very oppressive nature of dominant force, which was far worse than anything in Indi and Muslim world at the time, from inquisition to condemnation of Galileo and so on!
@@LuzianJ That is your opinion despite all the concrete evidence! You are conveniently downplaying the bigotry of dark age Christians who massacred millions through Crusades, bringing famine and diseases across Europe and the Middle East. At the same time, Muslims were literally naming the stars and translating and promoting philosophy and science. In fact, first scientist methods in the way we use today was used first by Muslim scholars like Ebn Heytham, studying light and its properties! Biruni if all scholars calculated the radius of the Earth when even 500 years later, questing the position of star landed people in jail by Christian authorities! Don't be blinded by superficial pride. Look at the facts!
ua-cam.com/video/tJJLvoDg2_E/v-deo.html
I am lost of the reason for this presentation......
I don't know that the meaning of the Cross is that it's better to be the slave and the tortured than the torturer. I suspect the meaning is that there is hope even for the tortured.
56:49 - The fruits of Christianity have nothing to do with anything happening in this life. If anyone thinks you don't need to believe in order to get the fruits of Christianity, they don't get it. The fruit of Christianity is eternal life, not 'your best life now'.
The fruit of christianity is eternal life. Nobody is denying that. What Mr. Holland is saying is the fact that Christianity has created the greatest civilization that ever has been, or ever will be.
And preserving that is important.
Now I'm waiting for his talk about "Why I changed my mind about National Socialism", but I fear we won't hear it befor 2030.
I have both praise and critics. Thanks for sevearal great ideas - noticing cycle vs religio by philosopher Augustin, use of “last will be first” by Marx and fallacy of the liberation theology to build heavens on earth which has been NEVER promissed in the Bible. Remarks about fascism and simmilarities with communism are great! If covard politicians of West would clearly said that communism of Soviet union was as bad if not worse than fascism, there would not be such an ignorance among youth and universities that do woke things and de facto praize neo-marxism - a satanic ideas of changing world by means of mens’ socio-political engineering based on fallacious idea that common good (of a class of the last) is more valuable and worse of sacrificing good, freedom and even human right to live for a specific individual. Clearly satanic idea to change the world. BTW Joseph Stalin has received some christian education as well as Karl Marx.
but… In 55:11 you just said about so - getting rid of any superstition is deep christian idea - and from the context one could derive that you are assuming this can be generalized to - getting rid of any superstition INCLUDING LIVING GOD, JESUS AND HOLY SPIRIT?
In your view - to which denomination and christian tradition it applies? Let me guess - Probably in those who cherish philosophy of Augustine? Did you realize what you just said? Jesus teaches - from the fullness of your heart the mouth speaks.
Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
This means you have probably lost your way, sorry! Repent! In Jesus name! 🙏
This might happen if theorizing becomes more important than the truth of the Word of God. This phenomena exists when believers are such by hearing of the word and not by doing the word, not loving the God from all your heart,soul,strength,mind. Tertullian did not warn in vain that Church of Christ lead by the Spirit is being converted by bishop of Rome into church lead by bishops (by men). And these are deads by satan. For this reason he was excommunicated - he being the first Latin father of church.
It is interesting though as a well read historian he doesn’t open himself to the facts that no one really knows where the Bible comes from eg. We don’t even know who many of the authors are as real historical figures and he also simply accepts it as the one true source of truth not acknowledging its profound contradictions regarding teaching morals and concepts of what constitutes God.
Tom Holland’s books are not easy reads.
He's substituted one form of certainty and power (dinosaurs, Samson, Romans, Spartans etc), with another one (god and religion).
He's basically a fear inspired individual.
A deeper religion inspires awe, humility, paradox and a sense of fundamental and cosmic uncertainty.
This seems totally beyond his imagination and desire.
Is that a fair statement? He doesn't present as someone in fear of God's power but as someone who has come to see the transformative power of the central Christian idea, that God enters our world and wins the victory over evil and death by suffering.
Brilliant orator in the vein of Hitchens.
Yes indeed, both articulate. But for one that ability enchanted him to the point of blindness, and for the other it brought him towards the light.
@@martinfroelich7193 yes indeed, so elegantly stated.
What an interesting, intelligent and humble speaker Mr Holland is.
How unfortunate that so many intellectuals, as you point out, become blinded by their own "brilliance," and assume their mindset to be universally superior, and therefore applicable to the solution of all problems.
Even a preliminary level "student" of mind, as i am, can see how overweighted left brain techniques and habitual compartmentalised patterning of operating systems plus unrestricted ego, can neither provide a complete picture of, nor provide solutions to larger dilemmas.
Since God has been practically demoted to the official sucky blanket of the weak minded and terminally afraid, has scientific "empiricism" fulfilled it's grandiose promises of personal, societal and world peace, better mental and physical health, increased leisure and quality social time along with better working environments and improved diet and housing......
Or have human populations been increasingly used as just another cheap resource and unwitting guinea pigs -
Radiation
Ever more deadly weapons
Mind experiments
Chemical interventions eg
Fertilizers
Insecticides
Pharmaceuticals
MRNA technologies
Effects of mobile phones and computers, ie: games, social media and radiation output on young people
The unregulated development of AI and robotics
We finance and wait and wait for this ever brighter future while the world disintegrates before our very eyes.
Well, overall, i suppose the great mess gives me ever more cause to be ever more thankful to God for Yeshua!
The Hitch is turning in his grave.
@@martinfroelich7193 Yes. Hitchens was certainly right in his humanism. You are correct.
"Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism or other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good." AHS
And yet within atheism there's absolutely no philosophical basis for accounting for concepts such as right and wrong, good and evil, purpose and meaning, ... even mind and rationalism. ... It is things like this that are causing people like Tom Holland to take another look at Christianity.
Jesus could have had a loin cloth on: Pilate we know admired Christ ("Behold the man!). As a consequence, Pilate, who was in complete charge, could have ordered that a loincloth be placed on Jesus. Similarly, I suspect Jesus was allowed to have a pedestal to stand on, so he wasn't going up and down to breath (and so Pilate was surprised when Jesus died so soon). (Of course Jesus died so soon in God's plan so that his body could be treated and buried before the Sabbath began.)
This is a powerful speech. One point has to be made though: Yezidis are not Christians, ISIL considers Yezidis devil-worshippers based on some similarities between Yezidi creation myth and War in Heaven episodes in Abrahamic texts.
uplifting