Objection to B0XX Nerfs (Part 2)
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- Опубліковано 20 лис 2023
- I’ve created a follow-up video in which I continue to object to the B0XX nerfs that are being proposed. This contains a brief recap of the main points from my previous video, as well as a rebuttal to the ruleset committee’s response.
b0xx.com
/ ssbmhax
/ ssbmhax
/ discord
Credits to / ssbmaltimor - Ігри
"when hax aims to influence the direction of UCF, he is inflexible; when we do it, we are benevolent"
odd way of saying its hard to work with hax.
I really do feel like a lot of people in the community, prominent or otherwise, in the melee community ultimately just don't want to engage with Hax's arguments about controller parity and gameplay fixes because of some anti-empirical mysticism that they hold about melee being "pure," as if we haven't already implemented things like UCF, frozen stadium, and the like. Seriously, you want "pure" melee? Go play on a Nintendo GameCube (not a Wii or emulator) with no Slippi upscaling, no UCF, no phobs or goomwaves, and no frozen stadium.
Think of the hands. let the box fly.
The melee community is going to provide $millions to Orthopedic hand specalist.
The proposed nerf doesn't eliminate the capabilities of the B0XX, it only prevents it from becoming a necessity at a competitive level due to its inherent strengths.
@@benjaminshields9421I don't understand how people not see that digital inputs in a game controlled through analogue inputs is an immediate advantage.
If the boxx had an analogue bigass fight stick/Joystick for movement instead of digital buttons it'd look a little different probably but the way it is now it grants consistency that's impossible on GCC.
Appreciate your insistence on allowing sufficient time for the community to vet the changes as opposed to ramming them down the community's throat unilaterally
I love how the committee is shamelessly attacking your character and Altimor's character and somehow everyone ends up accusing you of being the self-interested ones lmao
Could you point me where PTAS are genuinely attacking his character? im team Hax but i cant be fucked to swim through every video and document for this
@@ManWithFace Sure thing. It starts at around 8:50 in this video.
Not only did hax create an ergonomic button controller but he also fixed the gcc controller so left goes full left when you want it to and shield works when you shield and up throw/down throw are each 1/4 of the stick directions and some other very minor annoyances no one else would’ve ever cared about but affect the game slightly negatively and they’re against him? Then he presents his 3.0 fix in a way that says let’s decide what the final version will be together, I can adjust it maybe not add z jump if you guys don’t like that, maybe something could be added maybe I could adjust a few variables and they say he’s not flexible while they say we need to nerf the box *this* way and refuse to budge on their stance to nerf the button controller instead of just fixing the goddamn gcc. I really don’t get these “community leaders”. It’s like their grudge against Hax’s character is preventing them from making good changes. Just cuz hax argues for what he thinks is right and went through psychosis, attacking leffens character, doesn’t mean what’s he’s done for the game isn’t worth implementing. It was also totally fair of hax to decide to go after Leffen lol. People now don’t understand how bad trolls and cyber bullies/bullies were back in the day now if U don’t like someone you can leave and join another of the hundreds of communities online but back then there was just smash boards and in person; nothing else. Man was harassed and decided to speak up. Even- especially in a moment of mental weakness that’s deserved. But freedom of speech doesn’t exist in the melee community apparently. Man has done more for the melee community and has more love for the game than almost anyone else and he’s banned, refused outright on good changes, they don’t even look at his appeals, and so many other people would’ve given up by now. It’s inspiring. All this effort is just to make the game slightly better too, it’s not necessary, doesn’t change much, just makes it slightly better. Game could’ve stayed 1.2 vanilla but it’s better now and could be better still. Just do it ffs.
@@fishcrimes Thanks. I will say it is true that hax can be inflexible and that has contributed to a lack of progress, but using that as an excuse to be the same rather than out of your own convictions is stupid.
Yeah, I just fundamentally disagree with PracticalTAS and co.'s philosophy regarding controller changes. I think that as long as GCCs and Boxxes end up in line with each other, it is fine to buff GCCs or nerf Boxxes on a case-by-case basis. I much prefer buffing GCCs to introducing stuff like coordinate fuzzing. The most important thing is that GCCs remain viable, and I think that 1.03 accomplishes that while introducing many QoL improvements so that you don't get screwed over by polling.
>it is fine to buff GCCs or nerf Boxxes on a case-by-case basis.
buffing GCC's is an absurdly large logistical issue compared to tweaking boxes that already have the infrastructure to go with a certain ruleset.
modded conches on par with box-style controller cost at least twice as much as the latter, and consist of 99% of the playerbase.
@@ManWithFace i mean imm actually quite curious about how many players use boxx. It might be that low idk, but i suspect youre just pulling the number outta your ass
it's pretty crazy how PracticalTAS thinks he is doing what is gamecube controller focused while everyone uses modded controllers on modded games. He says that haxx is focused on what the game should be when you both want that for the game, he just doesn't want to agree for the sake of it. If there was a possibility for everything to be perfect and work together, PracticalTAS would not take it.
Practical TAS is insufferable
4:24 is the most concise statement Hax$ has made to this point.
thank you for fighting for B0xx
They are just doing a battle of pride, they know you are right and will not accept it.
man hax fans are culty
I'm more or less indifferent to the changes, but the biggest thing I don't understand with everything is the fact the committee really wants to randomize values the b0xx points to, it really goes against the integrity of competition and would almost guarantee a ton of players dropping the b0xx or players who only play on b0xx to just not play lol.
yeah you're just uninformed. The fuzzing is VERY minor. Like a single coordinate in melee is basically nothing. There's no way you could notice it in a normal setting. Randomly being off by a single coordinate is MUCH more precision than you could possibly have on a gamecube controller.
Fuzzing is just in place to prevent specific coordinate precise techniques from being possible.
Also just listening to box players, fuzzing definitely isn't a top 3 thing they're upset about (scod, travel time, and quick roll outs are all WAY worse and make less sense)
@@mymyscellanyok, what exactly do you mean by precise coordinate techniques? What is it that you simultaneously think would be bad for the game for boxx players to be able to do, but also won't be noticed when they can't do it?
@@theoriginalrandommanthere's a few techniques in melee that require exact coordinates to execute. The two main ones are double up b as pikach and smash attack desyncs as ice climbers.
So pikachu has a glitch where you can actually go straight up twice with up b if you hit an exact coordinate. This is basically impossible to do on a game cube controller, at least consistently (it's fun to try though, you should be able to get it about 1/10 times, it's pretty cool). On a box you could have a controller that could hit that every time. That's not fair.
Ice climbers have a weird quirk where there's single coordinates for smash attack where you can input smash attack and sopo will do it but not nana. This is a way to get crazy desyncs instantly. Again, just not possible on a normal controller but could be consistent on box.
Fuzzing is mainly to address these exploits.
@@mymyscellanydoesn't Mewtwo also have a box specific tech with teleport cancels. That max be possible on GCC but never as consistent as boxy, since boxx is digital. And a boxx input will be the same every time you hit it, while an analogue input is never the same as the one before.
think your the uninformed one theres alot of characters where it does matter. and the argument is simple you can notch these values on controllers and miss it due to skill now its just rng whether you will get the spacing or the setup that you require @mymyscellany . also there is alot more then just the two banned techniques you named that are now and where perfectly legal before the nerfs but are now basically unviable@@mymyscellany
Hey Hax,
I think you raise a lot of good points and especially provide an alternative viewpoint on the overall objective of creating a ruleset for rectangle controllers.
With that said, I personally feel that you should reconsider your tactics when it comes to advocating for these changes. The tone of your two videos on the subject read as confrontational when I truly believe you are trying to be constructive. I urge you to understand the implication of advocating for a different mindset/standard when it comes to buffing GCC vs the purism approach. It’s an ideological difference that will take time and majority community support to really get off the ground.
Don’t take this as criticism, but rather advice that if you really want to see your vision for the community come to light, you should focus on collaboration and constructive dialogue. Saying things like “there approach couldn’t be further from correct” or “they have zero regard for boxx players” (paraphrasing) is not going to help.
Just my 2 cents. You’re the one invested in the work and putting in the effort here. Best of luck.
+1
yea Hax has ruined any goodwill with the community.
If you find hax'es voice "confrontational", maybe you need therapy lol I fall asleep to this guy's soothing voice xD
Hax can you put the link to PTAS'/Controller committee document in the description?
If melee still exists in 20 years it will be much in thanks to this video
man hac fans are a cult arn't they?
ZIP ZIP
YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON A CONTROLLER
I’m 100% for buffing gcc idk why everyone’s so stupid about it. When you attempt a technique u shouldn’t fail it bc of polling like no person is capable of performing tech on the perfect frames. It’s literally the same as tripping in brawl when you fail a dash back out of crouch or pivot or get hit at shield start up you leave yourself open to an attack you otherwise would’ve prevented from hitting you. You’re not wrong to want the game to work as the player intends it to, everyone should want that. It’s ridiculous it’s gone on long enough from when they first did UCF halfway. More of the current meta is safer than it needs to be cuz people are afraid of failing tech and GameCube controllers are breaking mid set cuz the tampering fucked it up or wouldn’t break as bad if the ranges were better. A shitty GameCube controller shouldn’t be forward throwing when you want an up throw as much as it does.
Don't forget: "Anyone can clawgrip" - PracticalTas
IMO that should contextualize the nature of the opposing argument quite a bit...
Yeah literally saying that to someone whose hands make it so he can’t use a gcc that’s ablelist he should be banned for a hate crime.
@@LANBobYonson your like 14 arn't you?
5:26 I'd like to specify the BOXX isn't the only way to do this - if another company mystically finds an equally profitable method of doing something akin to the BOXX, or any other alternative to the GameCube controller, they should be just as capable of providing an argument as you are here. It isn't relevant now, but given Smash's general conservatism towards rejected ideas, I feel it's important to bring up for anyone attempting to make headway in this area in the future
There actually are like three new box controllers and all had successful kickstarters amd suppose to release in the next few months.
legendary 13th faulty mechanic found i’m so hyped
I will never update to practicalTAS firmware, it seems like it would completely ruin the boxx
You know someonne is deranged when they find and use poeples real names instead of gamer tag
I dont even play melee im just entertained by this
fantastic video
I think the biggest issue that wasn't discussed is that I don't see a way to buff gcc dashdancing.
I think this is the most contentious point in practice.
When I switched to b0xx my dashdancing improved, as most peoples' will, and that's a tough pill to swallow.
Now I believe melee is the best game ever and I want us humans to play it as good as possible! So I can see how this "gcc purity philo" is anti-progress.
But melee was built of GCC old-heads who are then auto-competitively against b0xx bc of their (and their friends') large investment in gcc practice.
See the big picture guys! Let's move forward!
-Gainz
the gap between gcc dashdancing and normal boxx dashdancing is significantly smaller than the gap between nuetral SOCD and gcc would be, id unironically quit if I had to relearn my muscle memory with NSOCD
I'm not a Melee player, but across the Smash communities I've never understood the insistence on sticking with Gamecube controllers. Even in the newer Smash games where there's built-in support for different controllers, there's still the expectation that people should and will play with a GC controller (I do understand the advantages of having a wired controller for in-person events). You've been extremely thorough with documentation on what the Boxx can and can't do, as well as your design philosophy. It feels weird that there's so much pushback when you've shown not only how you're willing to limit what the Boxx can do, but how to improve the user experience for GC controllers as well. I feel like if people can play with a controller that's comfortable and isn't causing some sort of unfair advantage, then there shouldn't be much of an argument against it.
God i hate regressive mentality for purities sake.
The point of the tennis raquette is perfect.
Let the sport grow before you start implementing the purity test jesus.
All this anti-boxx is just gatekeeping 100%.
So basically boxx can only be as good as controller when both could be better
Basically yeah. If you have older firmware, you screw yourself over by updating lol I won't be surprised if many rectangle users are on older less restrictive firmware.
Keep it up hax!
regardless of the outcome im glad we could at least have a civil conversation
box fox rox
box falco ralco
@@clumpus2714 ruh roh raggy
these people, haxx and altimor included, should talk in a call, not in resoonses back and forth in waves
Good idea, but in the end its a community-led decision. Hax and ptas are just making the information/potential changes publicly available so TO's and players can make informed decisions. Having everybody talk at once could be way more distracting than hax's vid here
Thanks for your strong language and advocating for the equity of representation!!!
I don't play competitive melee, but as an audience member I am deeply inspired by the attempt to EXPAND the community's controller options, and investing in the long-term health of the game.
Whats the issue with their non-identical angles?
I hate that you have to put this much work into a controller being legal, the rest of the FGC let's you play on whatever the hell you want as long as no buttons perform macros, and socd is cleared someway. People have played on actual racing wheels and literal piano Keyboards. Hope you can get this drama finished in the smash community.
The FGC *does not* just let you play on whatever, and SOCD cleaning is not just "someway."
The FGC has had and still has discussions on the legality and fairness of box controllers in contrast to stick and, to a lesser extent, pad.
If you're looking to equivocate the Melee's controller dilemma to that of the FGC, you'd need to be either uninformed or intentionally misleading in your arguments. Digitizing the input of an inherently analog axis creates a gray area of what the new controller should and should not be capable of. The closest example would be hitbox *without* SOCD cleaning. At its core, SOCD inputs and all cleaning methods provide some aspect that the intended controller cannot inherently do. This is true of rectangle -> GCC as well. No GCC player can hit a 0ms travel time movement, and no GCC player can hit and hold a single coordinate that isn't a cardinal, even if that coordinate is notched.
Another community that faced something similar is the Super Mario Bros Speedrunning community. L+R (SOCD) is banned, even though keyboards are allowed *and* the game has a unique behavior if L+R is pressed, L+R is still banned. L+R being unbanned wouldn't "raise up" the community, it would only alienate the original hardware users, and that's the same thing the rectangle nerfs strive to avoid.
Hitbox SFV gimmicks and SOCD with charge characters are literally only Street fighter issues. I take it you don't know much about the FGC other than the hot topic of controller legality during its height in popularity. It doesn't matter at all that you can SOCD in melee because it is a useless thing to do. Adding a 'fix' for it would just be a worthless nerf to something that is just base ergonomics of the controller.
The 'equivocation' of melee controller dilemma is something the committee is doing themselves because they are just as reactionary and uninformed as most of their hardcore followers. I can't think of any reason to add neutral SOCD cleaning other than to copy hitbox (which needs it) or to just intentionally hinder b0xx users. If you can come up with anything feel free to list it ina way that is relevant, as Mario speedrunning has nothing to do with the applications of SOCD in melee.
HAX MONEY
I disagree on your idea to release fixes in waves. I think the whole thing should just be dropped at once
Just start a boxx league. Boxx players and gcc players welcome
This was a pretty good video. I ordered a 1.03 gamecube mem card in 2021 and never received it
Scammer get scammed. Rip tho
you know you can email them right?
its like moving from tennis rackets to baseball bats, its a totally different game and should have separate tournaments
This video is making me feel old. Back in my day people just brought a GameCube controller and played melee the way it was coded on the little cd you bought.
You cant bring up tennis rackets going from wood to metal without talking about the times that many sports restrict the optimal equipment for gameplay reasons.
This is effectively a huge lie by omission.
I do agree with your points tho
I defo agree on the r and l modifiers, how your solution makes it more in line with gcc
But the fact that you are still so adamant about the symmetry of coordinates when your only argument is intuitiveness, is rly dumb. Such a small coordinate difference is super unnoticeable for some who just plays the game
Swift recently posted a video comparing the two angles for firefox and concluded it is a significant nerf. He has been advocating to the controller patch team to get this changed and he is one of the biggest supporters of the new nerf. It's definitely a meaningful change.
I actually think it's a pretty important thing for a controller to be symmetrical. It's stupid to me that I'd have to learn minute intricacies between for example using Up-B based on the side of the stage I'm on, it's pretty silly imo. Also the buffed WD angle seems pretty impactful.
@@yScribblezHDHe means symmetry between the x and y axis not between right and left. The box nerf proposal shouldn't make recoveries different on the left and right sides.
@@nahometesfay1112 yeah thats what i meant.
>Advancing the game
>not judged based on their size
Yes yes, you are the messiah here to make melee better and save us all from the inferior controller and game implementation that many players are fine with.
nvm that many won't want the fixes and disagree with your perspectives, or that the majority will never use the B0XX. Just ignore the practical reality of what you're asking, which is that the entire melee scene must change to accommodate you and what you have made the B0XX to be, and what you think the GCC should be.
Also forget that just because they agreed with SOME of your proposals, doesn't mean that OTHER proposals have merit just because they also came from you.
Many of your arguments are not objective, practical or even true, and that is why they will not work. You'll need to figure out another way, or start running tournaments your own way and see how they go if you haven't already.
I've enjoyed a lot of your uploads, your analysis is good, but I've often disagreed with your "solutions" and ever since the 1.03 content started coming out I've been wholly put-off by this channel. Feels like I'm getting hit by constant ads about it. It seems to worm its way into every video now, taking up a significant amount of video length everytime it's mentioned.
B0xx has to be nerfed, they don't know that if you socd you just get to buffer a tilt for the recently pressed direction. Too broken imo.
Game is about dead going back to oem only is the only way.
first
Nah mate
10:41 I'm sorry but this kinda lost me on anything you were saying in regards to 1.03. like, no that should absolutely be a dealbreaker and treating it as anything but is imo really bad. even if I presuppose that all of your premises are true in regards to it being a better solution, any "solution" which would split the game into 2 separate versions is a non starter. like, it would be utter horseshit for advantages to be gained or lost based on which version of the game a set was played on.
The game is already split into 3 versions... v1, v1.01, and v1.02. Depending on what disk you have there are differences that some players have to take into account. The whole reason it is called 1.03 is because it is effectively working as a bug fix much as the intention behind disk version 1.01 and 1.02 were. If anything a 1.03 memory card being mandatory for anything official would mean that Melee finally has a consistent standard that must be adhered to. That said, the fact that we haven't even been able to 100% decide on something as simple as a version number basically means there is no hope of mandating adoption of an aftermarket patch.
@@TheOldSchoolCrisis tournaments aren't played on 1 or 1.01
snooze fest
Boxx must be nerfed. And 1.03 will never be used because it is too great of a change to the game.
hax$ having issues with community figures who won't have it his way, again.
troll account do not interact
Guy makes a fightstick controller for a game that injures its players and you show up to be a little shit. get off youtube and go do something else
@@fishcrimes guys anyone who admits hax has some issues is a troll.
You’ve obviously put a lot of work into these videos, and money into your B0XX. But you CANNOT let this bias cloud your judgement.
The GameCube controller IS the standard controller. Things SHOULD revolve around this. To even propose changes that impact the way this STANDARD controller operates is absurd.
If the B0XX can’t be independently balanced, so its compliance can be EASILY checked, proven, and enforced, then it should be BANNED from tournaments.
play on non-UCF then if the vanilla gcc is the standard🤣
All of his contoller fixes seem reasonable and don't even require the existence of the boxx for them to be justified. I don't see why we cant just implement those first and see how balanced things are afterwards, which would help prevent any unnecessary nerfs. Also, just because the gcc has been the standard in the past does not mean it has to be the one and only standard forever.
GCC is not a standard they are inconsistent. This has led to the creation of UCF and modded controllers such as the pob and goomwave. I think Melee would benefit from an accessible standard controller, but that's not GCC.
The core of the Melee controller problem is that GCCs aren't standard and do not have true standard behavior.
Non-UCF OEM GCCs are basically ticking time bombs in half a dozen different ways and every single modded form of GCC has had different and crippling issues of some kind which have directly and obviously affected top level play.
The game itself and the controller made for the platform the game was originally released on have, combined, so many inherent inconsistencies that the GCC is incapable of being a standard in and of itself without further software fixes, and even if 1.03 is fully out you're still going to need better than a random OEM GCC most of the time at top level, the minimum being notches.
An unergonomic controller that causes tendonitis is THE standard? Sounds like a shitty standard
cant wait for another shitty ass ptas tweet to come out in 2 hours being horrifically rushed and barely coherent, me when " with one motion of you can press A button FOUR TIMES in 7 frames" thanks for looking out for the box homies
4 times in seven frames while having successful 1 frame release windows between presses more than sub-10% of the time... oh wait he didn't specify the success rate or technique beyond "hitting the same button".
i trust and believe in everything hax says about the b0xx