4 signs you're dealing with a pietist
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- Опубліковано 13 лют 2019
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Good thing Hans Fiene over at Lutheran Satire taught us that "Deeds not Creeds" is in fact a creed. Thanks for the work on these videos.
A protest against creeds is not in itself a creed, not unless a person uses it to exclude those who are creedal.
Btw Pastor Will Weedon has a good book, Thank, Praise, Serve, and Obey", that outlines good Lutheran peity.
I’m so glad you did this one! I keep feeling bashed over the head with this one. This has really helped answer my questions. Gives me a new way to pray.
This video is so profound in its simplicity and truth. As a recovering pietist, I can tell you this hits the nail on the head. Been there. Done that. Done that for almost fifty years of my Christian life and now no more by God's grace. Very thankful for these videos Pastor Wolfmueller. I will be using my video notes as a check if I'm ever tempted to slip back into pietism.
An EXCELLENT explanation that brings clarification to previous phases of my Christian life. Thank you for sharing! 😊
My sister is a pietist. The last time I saw her smile, was 35 years ago, before she was saved.
Funny! Pietists look upon wholesome laughter as sinful ribaldry
I'm sorry but that was pretty funny 🤣
I can believe it. These people are insufferable.
That is SO FUNNY. I once made the EXACT same observation. I said the pietist thinks laughter is sinful gaeity
Pietism curls back on the individual. Instead of loving God and one's neighbor, it's self love above all else. It's like limping through one's walk of faith with ingrown toenails, rather painful and inhibiting.
Having grown up deep in the heart of Scandinavian American Lutheran Pietism, you pretty much wrapped that up in as succinct and accurate a bundle as I've seen.
Would it be correct to say the difference between piety and pietism is this: piety is when we do good works because we are saved, but pietism is when we do good works so that we might be saved?
From my understanding, that sounds like a good explanation.
@@sarco64 thank you!
assuming salvation sounds a bit pietistic.
@@gunzofthenavarrone8293
...except, pietisim is works righteousness.
This is very helpful stuff both in pastoral ministry and personally. Thanks!
deeds without creeds are the roots of "social justice." Creeds without deeds are the root of rigidity, and spiritual calcification, ossification, and lithification
As a Calvinist, I love your channel and your content. Blessings my brother.
Wow, I am so glad that you posted in the thread on the Christian UA-cam Creators thread. I am definitely subbing. I am excited to learn from you and I am sharing this video in my facebook group. This is so important. This is so vital. Pietism is turning people away from true fullfillment, repentance, love and refreshing in their lives. Be mightily blessed, and thank you so much for making this video. Here is a can of worms questions. Do we refuse to call transgendered people by their perferred pronouns and names? How will they possibly listen to us talk of God loves if we do that to them?
Dude im so excited about this video!
So thankful for you🙌
Thank you, pastor! Never though about it in this way. Very helpful.
Thank you, this was very informative.
I recoil in horror and shame at my feeble pious acts that seemed so meaningful at the time. I’m so thankful for videos such as these that clarify and refine the Law/Gospel message.
Acts of faith are not pious/self-righteous. Most of the work being done is what's happening on the inside of the person by God's Spirit. But make no mistake, acts from the right motivation are exactly what God expects.
OK. Thanks for clarifying. Your words give some comfort.
Thanks again for this important teaching.
Excellent analysis!
I've always thought a good sign of the Pietist is also this. "My conscience has come to this conclusion on this matter...and your conscience must come to the exact same conclusion as mine!"
Between you and Pastor Chris Matthis...I love the humour!
In Martin Luther's treatise "Christian Liberty" he stated, "Our faith in Christ does not free us from works but from false opinions concerning works, that is, from the foolish presumption that justification is acquired by works." I think that this is another danger of pietism, the belief that we contribute to our justification by providing the necessary amount of piety. In American evangelicalism our piety is measured not so much by doing good works as by avoiding those things that "good Christians" don't do, like drinking alcohol, getting a tattoo, listening to secular music, etc. If we steer clear of all these naughty things than we will have done our part to earn our justification.
I'm a non smoking....moderately drinking Christian who likes secular and Christian music (not contemporary worship). Drinking alcohol is NOT forbidden. And wine is the proper liquid for communion. I hope you also stay away from the other gender cause it might lead to sexual sin....
@@Dilley_G45 I hope you noticed that I put "good Christians" in quotation marks. Maybe I should also have put quotes around "naughty things."
@@sarco64 overlooked this...I totally got it my friend...I know what a real good Christian is....not someone like the mom of Sheldon Cooper from TBBT. She thinks alcohol is bad but has extramarital relationships with several men in the series...how can you justify sex outside of marriage which the Bible says is a no no...but ban people from drinking alcohol in your house which is not forbidden? That's also why Methodists don't do one night stands. It could lead to drinking and dancing...;)
@@Dilley_G45
Let's not excuse public sin (intoxication) with private sin ( lust).
But I do appreciate the humor!
@@davegreene1198 why do Methodists abstain from one night stands?
It might lead to drinking and dancing
How has "pietism", as distinct from normal piety, in our American culture, been shaped or buttressed by Existentialism? Does Protestantism in general base its understanding of piety on Existential beliefs and philosophy more than or instead of the Bible?
Thanks, this was helpful
I have been raised in a radical Dutch Pietism. I took the position of Justification by faith, and, meeting with the elders to defend faith unto justification and obedience unto a godly walk, the elders replied that they had no idea what I was talking about. When I said that I denied Justification by works, they hated me. This after 37 years of membership, and overall faithful pulpit. But the pew was pietist and after I denied the justification by works, they hated me, my sweet wife and my sons. We stood together. They didn’t just discount us as lower than they, they wanted us in hell.
You rebelled against the elders that's why. You could have quietly worked out your salvation but instead you chose to rebel and I'm guessing advocated for worldliness and false Christianity? How could they keep you brother?
Something is of a twisted understanding there. That is, didn't they understand you?
'Let every man be convinced in his own mind... ' etc
Great video
A friend of mine who grew up in Norwegian pietism in MN once yold me, if you enter a room filled with pietists, you feel like you've entered the TWILIGHT ZONE. He dismisses pietism handily with "they have a flawed belief system."
Another sign of a pietist - they're always praying and letting you know it. Spiritual showmanship. I think they pray about what kind of toothpaste to buy
From my experience, a HUGE problem in American Christianity is there is no concept of ongoing repentance. Like mentioned in this video, the life of a Christian is chronological - "ask Jesus into your heart", get busy being a good Christian. (Pride and despair results. So many times I felt horrible because I just couldn't understand why I couldn't stop sinning and so doubted whether I could actually be a Christian.) I'm so grateful for the Biblical understanding of repentance... and especially for God's grace and forgiveness for my own pietism!
Martin Luther said that the life of a Christian is a life of daily repentance. In his morning prayer he prayed to God that "you would also protect me today from sin and all evil, so that my life and actions may please you." In his evening prayer he asked God "to forgive me all my sins."
Repentance literally means to stop sinning. You just have to ask God. Sanctification is a process that takes hard work and that feeling was the conviction of the Spirit because you grieved the Holy spirit. Stop sinning Jesus can help you
Great video.
What would "creeds without deeds" be called? Antinomianism?
In short Pietism is being like Pharisee
Not necessarely…
They like to quote Mt. 7 where Jesus says that not everyone that calls him „Lord Lord“ will enter heaven but those who obey the will of the father… which means for them: avoiding every form of sin and doing good works…
Confessional Lutheran! Excellent!
Thanks. Interesting. God bless.
Here's a question relating to your book: I bought a copy and enjoyed it greatly. In the video here you mention that a church is using it a study. While I thought it is a great book, it seems a bit too difficult to lead in a group study situation. Is there a study guide? I found that there is so much (good) matierial that we might take a year to get through it. Any suggestions?
Very well said. Thank you Pastor Wolfmueller.
In Jesus Christ PAX.
Bryan, what is your opinion on the Orthodox Church?
So would man-made negatives be things such as giving things up for lent?
Would this be similar to the debate between "Free Grace" vs "Lordship Salvation"?
Pastor Weedon recently in a podcast on Matthew (The Word of the Lord Ensures Forever part 31) expressed the thought that Jesus said "When you fast..." not 'if you fast.' What are your thoughts on fasting? Are there correct ways to fast?
This comment is proof the pastor here is completely wrong. He said that listening to Jesus is a sin 😆 😂 😆 😂 talk about blinded by the traditions of men. Get back to the bible pastor
I'm a bit confused by the last 2 points. Our spiritual life shouldn't be internal?
in what
My brother, honestly, i think you are wrong about this. As a Catholic, we talk all the time about the "interior life." Some of our greatest saints were all about this. I think it is wise to take what you are saying into advisement, and not get too far off into the "inner deep..." or whatever. Yet to deny that God wants us to develop these interior faculties of spiritual development is also hazardous. There must be a balance....
Amen!!
Your Lutheran comfort is affected by good works as a negation to Salvation. By Work in the Faith. Not so. Fr. Dan
So what would the opposite of pietism be?
I have correct theology (creeds) but negligible fruit (deeds)
Yes!
Opposite of pietism?
Public sin for recognition?
Keep going to church and the fruit will come in due season.
Happy New Year! 2022!
Is pietism similar to scruplosity?
that's a good question!
I wish you I had come across this video two years ago. It defines the church I am attending. I attend but I wouldn't join, because quite frankly I am not good enough, according to their standards. Everything is internal. Every sermon is on sanctification. Sometimes I just want to say, can't we just talk about God, and how good He is, and not on how good we are?" But since there are no alternatives where I live, I just stay quiet.
Where do you live?
@@davidcnoe Are you with the government? Just kidding. Panama. My wife pushes me to go to the Bible studies. I bring up stuff like the Supernatural and stone silence. They don't believe there is a supernatural conflict going on. It's too Roman Catholic or Dan Brown. I find the Bible fascinating and relevant. I am into Mickeal Heiser because he discusses subjects seldom discussed in Churches I have attended. Boys between the ages of 10 and 18 once went on a crusade to the Holyland to fight for their faith. We are so far from what was once Christendom.
This is helpful! Thanks for this! I noticed some striking similarities between Pietism and Gnosticism. I guess there really is nothing new. Same old biblical, catholic and apostolic truth; same old false teachings, but repackaged.
Could you explain why you believe that about Gnosticism?
I don't remember Pietism having such a bad rap in the old days!
Questions-
1 Are you born of Adam?
2 Are you saved from death and given eternal life?
3 Are you saved by God who was manifested in the flesh?
4 Are you given eternal life via the death of the Son of man, God in the flesh?
5 If you are convince that you have eternal life, are you given that through life through faith alone not by works?
6 Are you saved to the bone and sure of you can not lose eternal life?
7 Are you set free from the Law of Moses and forgiven all of your sin, past, present and future?
I generally agree with much of what is being said here. But can't it be argued that a natural progression of Protestantism is pietism, to liberalism/modernism....?
Seems like most Christian movements are: let's get rid of the man-made stuff and get back to the Bible.
Then the "followers" say, that's great, lets just add some of our own good ideas to that.
Seems like a huge difference between original (German/Spener) Pietism and where it took off to.
This doesn't seem as much like an explanation as a critique and caricature of Pietism. I would suggest that Pietism is first and foremost a historical movement, and that Pietists are past participants in or present inheritors of that movement, not all individuals who happen to believe certain things or behave in certain ways. Also, the suggestion that Piestists (today) push others to believe and practice what they do does not seem accurate, at least not in the Evangelical Covenant Church, which might be the most overtly Pietistic American denomination today and is non-creedal.
Good but where's the balance? You correctly identified "deeds without creeds' but you never balanced it by talking also (the other side of the coin) that its neither "creeds without deeds." The message should be that its "creeds AND deeds." Sorry, I am sounding pietistic? I don't mean to be. I've just seen the ugliness of "both" sides of that coin.
Why do we confess that Jesus descended into Hell? And why is this an important event to have in the creed?
You can find this doctrine in Scripture in 1 Peter 3:19-20. The church has confessed this for a while in the creed. When we confess that Christ descended into hell we are confessing that Christ is victorious over the enemies in hell. Even hell has been bought to subjection under Jesus by his death and resurrection. (See also Colossians 2:15)
I'm Calvinist, so I do hold to the idea of an "or do salutis." However, I am most definitely not a Pietist. I think that's why I have always been so uncomfortable with guys like John Macarthur and Paul Washer, as they focus so heavily on inward examination and personal holiness for assurance. I am heavily Confessional, and prefer to look to the Sacraments and preaching of the Word for my assurance. God bless!
*ordo
What is mysticism ...I want the Experience of God Holy Spirit but not b n mysticism
Watch this video! If you don't, you're a bad person.
And probably an anabaptist.
😂❤
Pride vs prejudice.
Looks like pietism is the way of the Jesus. It has less dependency on external church observances and more to do with the spiritual transformation and expression of God's sanctifying work in the man. Those who go to Pietism are led by penitence and the fear of the Lord. They realize we are judged individually, not as a corporate body. The judgment of God tests the faith of the individual by fire as evidenced by the worthiness of works done by faith. Thanks!
AMEN
Look up radical pietists vs church pietists
Faith without works is dead
Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means!"
Yep!!!! Thank you!!!!
Go and sin no more
-Jesus
Get pious brothers, the Holy spirit will guide you into life by the spirit. Don't be afraid of Loving and dying for christ
@@tomteague4533 Why do you assume that I do not know this?
@@artemusbowdler7508I assume you were making a point and just didn't include the rest of Romans...😅
Using verses out of context, it's a wonder why 53% of evangelicals don't rest in the five Sola's anymore.
@@mulkster39 I figured that you could read the rest of Romans on your own time; to copy and paste the entire book of Romans on this thread would be ridiculous. Falsely accusing me of using verses out of context is laughable; your comments are typical of those who's beliefs are driven my arrogance. Where did you get the 52%?
@@artemusbowdler7508 read what I said, I wasn't falsely accusing you. I assumed you were making a point. The 53% is a Barna poll number. Romans can be read in an hour and should be read in its entirety. Folks who get bent out of shape have usually a high anthropology, synergists, and semi-pelagians.
But Sir, with all do respect, if we do not live out what we believe, what is the believe or good creed worth anymore. I won't say we won't get saved or that we will only get saved by works, but if I believe Jesus died for me and my sins, and then live a life of Sin or at least a live where I never ever would care about my neighbor, that would be called hypocrisy.
Isn't it, that revelation says "you are luke warm, so I will spit you out of my mouth! Where does it say, "oh don't care about how you live your live, nor care about how you'll influence your neighbor with your works!" ? Actually Jesus says, "let your good works shine before the people, do they may praise your heavenly father!"
I really want to believe Lutheran doctrine and I totally see, we cannot live the christian live nor be justified in any way by our deeds. But I'm deeply worried that this kinda "Don't worry about good works, nor about how sharing your faith with your neighbor, it's just about grace, God is in control, chill out!" Kinda doctrine will lead to a fruitless live. Again I believe we are saved by grace, and grace alone! But I'm scared to stand bevor God and realizing "Man! All the time, I did not care about the way I'm living or about doing good works, and I never told anyone about the hope I got, and now there are so much of my fellows who are going to hell, simply because I didn't share my faith.
Of course we are choosen, but wouldn't it be rather reformed theology, saying "saving people from hell is God's job, Not mine at all!"
Peity yes but not self righteousness..
I guess pleasure is sinful
Depends on the object and degree. Delighting in the good is a good work.
So what is 'faith' exactly? Or, 'shaping our hearts? You really need to fully define these things before before talking about things like deeds not creeds, works over faith, etc. As it is, your views expressed here are virtually meaningless, devoid of any real content.
What does this comment even mean?
You set up and criticise a straw man. Your caricature of Pietism bears little relationship to the Pietism of Johann Arndt, Phillip Speneror or John Wesley. I'm not sure what branch of Christianity you are a minister in, but I am sure it has good and bad aspects. I could then record a similar talk concentrating of the worst aspects.
I’ve just ordered a copy of your ‘Has American Christianity Failed’. I’m sorry if my comments above sound a little harsh. There is good in so many Christian movements - even Puritanism had its good points. I am finding the Pia Desideria of Spener very helpful. His section on the Conduct of Religious Controversies should be read by everyone using social media.
@@adrianthomas1473 Just learning about this and no, I don't think you are being harsh. When we learn about Christian movements, it's important to note the beginning and evolution. There is definitely an "off track" group of Pietists, as there is in any movement. The original theology of Spener lacks the errors this man is attributing to Pietism.
If I said this is what is wrong with Lutheran doctrine for example, it would be important to note the difference between 18th c. and modern, as they vary. For example, Spener's criticism of it, agrees with much of Luther's theology. So even in his day, Lutherans had already gotten off-track in some issues from what their founder had set.