LCMS vs ELCA, What's the Difference?
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- What are the differences between the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America? How do these two churches view the Scriptures, and what is the result of this difference?
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I was baptized in what would become the ELCA sixty years ago. I am getting to the end of my "crisis of doctrine". LCMS here I come. Thank you for your help pastor Wolfmueller.
Me too.
You shouldve dug in and fought
I'm a lutheran pastor from Norway. Thanks for providing this video, it helped me to understand the differences between the LCMS and the ELCA. The lutheran church of Norway (former state church) is very similar to the ELCA with it's ever-adapting-to-the-Zeitgeist-attitude. Personally, I'd prefer the profile of the LCMS. Good to see there are lutheran churches as the LCMS sticking to Gods word.
Thankyou my Norwegian Pastor....help my relatives there. The Sundseth family ♡+!
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I am original from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Cameroon (ELCC) founded by the Norway Missionary Society 🇳🇴 and missionaries from ELCA.
As a member of the WELS, I share your pain. It gets tiring to point out, "That's not us!" I AM happy to point out our differences with ELCA, but it does get tiring. We'll keep holding to the Bible, thank you very much.
Amen. It’s even more grievous when congregants of the ELCA have no understanding of what their church body believes or teaches. Lord, have mercy.
It's interesting seeing things from the other side.
I'm going to tell the story because between your comments and what this pastor talked about in the video, the story makes better sense to me now.
I was a sophomore in high school when we went through a Missouri Synod Church to see my cousin get confirmed and receive his first communion (one of my aunts married into the MS).
the rest of my family at the time was ELCA but we are course went to the service because in our family confirmation is a really really big deal.
1. we weren't even really allowed in the church until we had had a briefing by the MS pastor.
2. That briefing was kind of hostile.
3. At one point in the service my little sister looked over at me and asked "do you think they're going to hit us?".
I looked up from the hymnal, glanced around at all these adults staring daggers at us and said, "no sis, I don't think they're going to hit YOU", then looked away before she could ask me for clarification, because I really did think they might hit the rest of us LOL.
I get it though, the ELCA is the biggest gorilla in the room, Franklin the video Pastor said Missouri Synod doesn't really consider ELCA even Lutheran, he said it without actually saying it, but I caught it & it's cool lol.
I can definitely see why especially in light of what's come out of their church assembly that year y'all would be so pissed off towards them.
Sorry, I am not Lutheran! What is WELS?
@slenderpup How you are different from LCMS?
@slenderpup Thank you very much!
I am a Lutheran from Papua New Guinea. It's interesting to see differences in different churches from Lutheran denomination in USA. Thank you for clarifying the differences among the Churches there. It is sad to see that we are loosing our original Lutheran Doctrines. Keep up your good work and God Bless.
Very well presented. I will stay with LCMS !
LCMS womb to tomb here.
Beautifully and Christianly done. A great lesson on how to deal with doctrinal differences.
Hi Pastor Wolfmueller,
Just completed my 2nd year being part of LCMS, Trinity Lutheran in Burr Ridge, Ilinois. I am a Professor of History and Fulbright Scholar. Not the typical Lutheran. 😊Thank God every day to be part of LCMS. I am German, and translating Gothic scripture into English.
Your explanation of scriptural differences in this video was such a blessing to me. I had been investigating Lutheranism and was unaware of denominational differences believing Lutheran churches were akin to structure as the Catholic Church or UMC. Unknowingly my first few visits were to an ELCA congregation.
Your videos have helped me alot. The LCMS & AALC give me some hope. I just ordered a copy of the Book of Concord and Luther's Small Chatechism and began reaching out to Lutheran pastors such as yourself.
I am extremely grateful for your ministry!
I just found this podcast. I am pastor at Zion Lutheran in Kerrville, TX. Very well said. I left the ELCA IN 2000.
My husband is a lifelong Lutheran. He was born into, baptized and confirmed in ELCA church. I joined in 1986. We had many frustrations with our church over the years, but we loved our congregation. We kept saying that our church was a little different from the ELCA as a whole. However, I hit a breaking point at the beginning of the lockdown. Our church went entirely on Zoom. One such “service” involved telling us that we are all racist. That’s when I had enough. I started attending an LCMS church. Not long after, my husband joined me. It has been almost 4 years and I couldn’t be happier. Salvation through grace alone, Faith alone. Sola scriptura.
As N.T. Wright once said, "The Church that forgets to say “we must obey God rather than human authorities” has forgotten what it means to be the Church. The spirit of the age [or culture] is in any case notoriously fickle. You might as well, walking in the mist, take a compass bearing on a mountain goat."
Im Presbyterian PCA but we definitely relate to this with the PCUSA. Very interesting video and learned a lot about the Lutheran synods.
I am a life_long member of the LCMS related to a retired ELCA Pastor. Your explanation of the source of ELCA error arising from the foundational error of higher criticism is spot on. Thanks for bringing such clarity to the issue.
Thank you for this enlightening explanation! I am a born and raised LCMS member. Your talk really helped my understanding of the differences I have seen over the course of my life, and I appreciated this sooooo much! God bless the work you are doing to get "The Word" out. Keep telling the story and your story. Loved your paper helpers!
I'm not a Lutheran (yet) but this sounds just like what I am dealing with. My churches (non-denominational) that I associate with are allowing the culture to dictate everything. Thus, overriding the Bible. Sad.
What specifically do you mean by culture?
Oh you sound LCMS leaning then
Dave, come on over! I became Lutheran in collage when my parents turned Lutheran. It is really so interesting!
Confessional LCMS churches are not political churches; welcome!
BEGOME!
Awesome - love the old school paper based visuals!
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What a thorough, yet concise and simplified explanation of some key differences. I always highly value your input on such issues and this is no exception
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My background - LCA, then ELCA, then to LCMS.
I saw the handwritiing on the wall a long time ago. Focusing more on going to the lowest common denominator than standing up for God's Word.
I watched this again because in my area they have a lot of women Pastors. however in watching it again thank you pastor Wolfmueller I like it when you break out the cards it was very helpful for me I liked how you explained it thank you, GOD bless you and praise the LORD always
I'm from Germany and it's very interesting to me how the churches in the USA are organized.
At least you have organizations that are distinct. Here the teachings vary from church to church and you have to find out the hard way if it's right.
And of course it's becoming more and more difficult to stick with scripture against pressure from media and society. 😞
Good bless you!
I lived in Schwabisch Hall for a few years. It always bothered me when the work permit office would ask my faith, I would say "Lutheran" they would enter "Evangalisch" as if evangelicals and Lutherans are the same. No thanks. You're welcome to come for a visit here.
@@ThanxBeToGod Back in my school days I was always very adamant to have my "Religionszugehörigkeit" registered as "lutherisch", not "evangelisch" or "evangelisch-lutherisch". Nowadays working for the SELK, I enjoy telling the Finanzamt I have "keine Religionszugehörigkeit" while entering my occupation as "Pfarrer". It is very important, so they don't force me to pay church tax. Happens once in a while within our congregation with people who don't know better and say they're Lutherans at the Finanzamt. At one time a member of our congregation even had to provide evidence they were never a part of the Evangelische Kirche, because the certificate of baptism and current membership of our congregation was not deemed a sufficient proof by the Finanzamt. Church and religion in general in Germany are seen as guardians of the morals and values of the German society. It's almost a state religion. Which is why most Germans even say the Roman-Catholic church and the Evangelische Kirche should merge. Well, tbh they are almost the same these days in Germany anyway.
@@Daeyocs That's terrible that there is tax on church membership! I contemplate what it is about tyranny that it appeals to so many Europeans. Certainly, it must be genetic that at least half of Europeans or Caucasians really, favor such oppressive government? Although I have fond memories and I do miss German transportation, (or rather, how German transportation was in the 90s, no idea how it is today?).
I also miss the tremendous paved walking trails that crisscross the German countryside. I think I would be sad to see how much Germany has changed with all of the recent unhinged migration. How secular the German people are, if they have forgotten what Fr. Martin Luther created? The Lutheran Church must never return to Catholic Papists. I enjoy the Lutheran liturgy and the simplicity of the faith.
"Luther." From alt Deutsch? a combination of 'Leute' and 'Heer.' People Army, right?
@@ThanxBeToGod Well, the church tax is collected by the government and distributed to the churches. It's basically the state collecting membership fees on behalf of the church, so the big churches profit a lot from it financially. But it also gives leeway for politics to meddle with religion.
Germany is still a very beautiful country, but the people are indeed very secular and have all but forgotten about the teachings of Dr. Luther.
The name does derive from 'Leute' and 'Heer', yes. So the meaning is correct. One interesting tidbit is that Martin Luther changed the spelling of his name from Luder (which is a word that had and still has negative connotations) to Luther around 1517, derived from the greek Eleutherios, which means 'free' as in a 'freed slave'. So the name 'Luther' already is a testament to the teachings of the Reformation.
@@Daeyocs God The Father, I think, does have a sense of humor.
Thank you very much for doing this video. I found it to be very informative. We left our ELCA church in the summer of 2018 after some frustration in our church and learning about the speakers and happenings at the Youth Convention last summer.
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Thank you fir allowubg me to hear you on this subject, it was very informing for me and easy to understand.I have had the question for many years and now I feel a peace..God Bless
Such a good explanation. Thank you!
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I am a member of an ELCA church but my heart and beliefs are now LCMS.
Come on over, Dawn. 😁
do I know you, txsDAWN?
I'm with you. Several non denominational Christians who are old in age but new in faith have told me "Well you must leave immediately because message is everything".
I'm like, MAN if you have ever been blessed to have been born and raised in a church in which both your parents and your grandparents were born and raised, you would realize it its not so simple.
Its as much a part of your identity as your name, you know people there who knew you from back when you were knee high to a grasshopper are there and consider them an extension of your family, your grandparents were perhaps buried in that church's cemetery, you probably see the good that church has done on the local level and yeah its hard.
I REFUSE to find fault in those who choose to stay because leaving isn't easy. I will let you know what kind of reception I get from the MSLC when I manage to get a meeting with a member of their clergy in person.
Thank you for your teachings! Here a Vicar Valencia from Saint Paul Lutheran Church Mount Prospect, LCMS. Working with the Hispanic community around our church. God bless you!
Thank you for this helpful comparison and contrast.
Thank you for visually/audibly sharing this important information, Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller. :)
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I didn’t hear Christ Crucified in the ELCA clips! Former Mo Synod member here who joined the largest Lutheran church in the Western Hemisphere in Minneapolis! Going back to LCMS now! Have been reading Walther’s Law and Gospel for 40 years and my Theological Understanding of Scripture has been dulled until finding this You Tube channel! Thank God, and Thank You Pastor! God Bless you!
Thanks for such an awesomely clear video!
My Uncle is a retired LCMS Pastor. He lived through Seminex in person while in the Seminary and stood firm with LCMS. So glad he did!
Everything you say comes back to The Word. That’s grounding. Thank you.
This was great. Many good points and reflections🙂
I was l listening to an interview on "issues etc" today with a layman (who didn't self identify otherwise) who was in attendance at the ELCA conference and was dismayed that they voted down Jesus' words "I am the way,the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, but through me." This was in reference to a proposed amendment on an item of inter-faith fellowship. It seems there is a new Even Higher Criticism, in which not only is the Bible fallible, but the perfect Jesus wasn't all he was cracked up to be either.
I highly recommend listening to Issues Etc. Episode 2393 - Interview with Zachary Johnson. Very eye opening interview with regard to the current state of the ELCA.
Thank you for letting us know this interview happened!
issuesetc.org/2019/08/27/2393-the-elcas-declaration-of-inter-religious-commitment-zachary-johnson-8-27-19/
An excellent interview. May the Lord bless and keep Zachary Johnson! What he encountered shows the shallowness of the ELCA's "we are all about love" baloney. He was basically shut down and ridiculed mercilessly for proclaiming that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. He stated that one ELCA pastor even used profanity towards his proclamation for Christ on the floor of the convention. Others claimed it was an embarrassment to the ELCA in the presence of their "interfaith" guests. He was even attacked racially for being white. And the ridicule continued afterwards toward him by their clergy on social media, but they never bothered to address the theology of his statement; instead insisting that he was out of line even though he followed the rules set forth by their convention.
The link to the interview: issuesetc.org/2019/08/27/2393-the-elcas-declaration-of-inter-religious-commitment-zachary-johnson-8-27-19/
@@ann-marieb2593 "So I don't think it is Evangelical, I don't think it is Lutheran. Is it Christian? You can judge for yourself. I am personally doubting that it is. I mean I guess it is in America. That's about all that you can say for it." (In reference to ELCA)
Absolute legend.
@@colerobbins124 I agree
Great video! My grandfather was a minister with the ALC . Though he retired in 1960. I am Reformed though I do like the LCMS. I love your videos. Take care.
A very good video Pastor. I am a former LCA/ELCA member, baptized on 18 May 1980. I joined LCMC back during the issues of "Called to Common Mission". I saw it as an affront to scripture. However, it wasn't long before I saw problems within LCMC as well. I was in my particular LCMC church long enough for it to go from being a member of the "Northwest Network" to being a member of the "Northwest District". However, the pastor of the church soon began to excommunicate anyone who dared to disagree with him, which included a retired pastor and his wife, along with myself and my family, which led us to the LCMS. Yes, the ELCA has many problems and has so veered away from scripture and Luther's teachings that they really can not be called Lutheran any longer. The most extreme case of this is Ebenezer Lutheran in San Francisco, which has completed abandoned Christianity in favor of goddess worship, yet they are somehow still in fellowship and regarded as a member in good standing with the ELCA. Very confusing that one.
Thank you Pastor Wolfmueller. I left an ECLA Lutheran Church a few years ago because they had a woman pastor contrary to Scripture. When I questioned it, I was reminded that “we are all one in Christ.” That didn’t cut it for me. That verse in Galatians 3:28 has become the new catch phrase for many who make their own doctrine. I searched and found an LCMS Lutheran Church and now fully understand the differences. I also want to thank you because your video lectures helped to prepare me for my new member orientation. I am now a member of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Old Bridge, N.J.
Does the LCMS allow women deacons? Or no women in any branch of ministry. I was looking into the 2 Lutheran churches in my small Ontario town in Canada. One of them seemed to have a woman assisting in the service w/ the pastor. She had a rainbow looking stole, but that could be traditional. I'm not Lutheran so I'm not sure.
No women pastors at lcms. The rainbow is traditional😂
As someone who is trying to find my place in the faith, i want to thank you. I had alot of concerns about the ELCA (out of love) and had began to attribute their beliefs to the wider lutheran church. I especially appreciate you honesty and clarity, which seems to be really hard to come by in these times.
God bless you.
Thank you for this video. I was so confused. God bless you!
Thank you! Just found you thru fb, and will follow you. I am a 62 year old new Lutheran....learning. Bless you!
God led me to the LCMS in my 50s too. I highly recommend Issues, Etc. podcast. Also, one other PM Notes. Pr. Matt Richards is an LCMS pastor and friend of Pr. Wolfmuller. He posts his sermon and notes each week. Very helpful!
Perfect explanation! Much thanks!!#
Excellent explanation! Thank you!!
Higher Criticism was a multi-faceted movement, but it's main early proponent was a German (Silesian) Calvinist named Friederich Schleiermacher (d. 1834). At the same time, the Prussian Union of Churches (1817) ordered the mingling of Calvinist and Lutheran Churches in Germany. Lutheranism + Calvinism = Calvinism. Thus "Lutheran" became a nomenclature without a distinction within Germany and was dependent upon the predilections of the local pastor. Much like within the LCMS today, where walking into an LCMS church does not assure "Lutheran" theology, although walking into an ELCA church almost certainly guarantees non-Lutheran, and likely, non-Christian theology.
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@Pastor Bryan wolfmueller's um..... is that... uh.....
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I did mean to also say that I feel that your video is a very easy to understand presentation for lay persons trying to understand what is going on. Thank you!
As a former ELCA member, I can sum up their approach to scripture in two words - trajectory hermeneutic.
I share in your frustration. I enjoy your listening to your pastoral heart. Thx for sharing
Very well presented. Appreciate your way of breaking this down. Easy to understand.
Would be interested in your feelings towards the NALC.
Thanks again
Thankyou so much for this video Pastor Brian. I'm an Australian Lutheran and I think we are more aligned with the LCMS as is my understanding. Although, in recent years I have seen alot of the culture override creeping in and even though I have learned to be tight lipped, I still find it upsetting. I'm relying very much on your videos at the moment due to being isolated from a bible believing (and preaching) congregation due to location and proximity. So thankyou for giving us these small snippets to think about, talk about and pray about.
You hit the nail on the head. Very good exposition of the basic details of the differences between ELCA and lcms and wels for that matter. I have kindly talked to many people till I'm blue in the face about the blatant denial of scripture in the ELCA. some have listened, but so many have not. Sadly many in the lcms and the wels have left their faith without even blinking an eye. So the church is fraught with difficulty on all fronts no matter what the confession. That's not to say that the confession isn't important, it is! Having grown up in the alc then ELCA, I have very little qualms saying that they are apostate.
The other issue that is very real is 30% of confessional Lutherans do not attend worship regularly. The remaining 70% probably 1/2 of them don't know what they believe or are there because they grew up there, so they are culturally conditioned. Of that remaining 35% only a few are stepping up and serving in their congregations in material ways making it a real tough pull for those that do. I am talking about everything from cleaning the church, serving at funerals ushering and attending Bible class. No Muslim is going to come and take your church people, you willingly give it up without a blink. Come on people.
Thank you for such a clear, simple explanation of this issue. I’m LCMS, and proud of our synod’s stand against the pressures of culture. Gottes Wort und Luther’s lehr vergehen nun und nimmermehr!
Thank you Pastor. SCRIPTURE ALONE! Peace
Very well explained. I have struggled to maintain membership in ELCA (LCA + ALC). Its a mission field.
ELCA sounds (sadly) to have a lot in common with the Norwegian Lutheran church. Although the progression hasn’t reached as far in Norway. Kyrie Eleison.
The Church of Norway is falling appart, how long until they're forced to sell churches to afford the upkeep of their attended churches.
Thank you, Pastor Wolfmueller. This was so helpful!
Your brother in Christ and in the Call,
Pastor R. A. Abernethy
Mount Olive Lutheran Church
Newton, NC
You break it down so eloquently Amen 🙏
A sincere question for Lutherans:
I was born into a devout Roman Catholic family who, for a variety of reasons, descended into the 1960s-70s religious roller coaster of the Charismatic Renewal followed by Pentecostalism, various Fundamentalist churches and Faith Healers ... all played out from my infancy through my college years.
As an adult, I didn't want what I saw in my youth. I did, however, want a relationship with Jesus. I sought it in the much more comforting and "sane" world of the Episcopal Church, but in the last 40 years, the Episcopal Church morphed into something I no longer find remotely Christian. There are Christian Episcopalians to be sure ... but I don't care for the church.
So I started looking again. Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran are the churches in my town. I love Luther. I have since I was a little boy and read his biography. I love Lutheran theology (LCMS that is). It inspires me and makes sense. I don't like Calvin.
But if Luther was right - and Lutheran theology is the "most" correct - why has the Lutheran church been such an abysmal disaster? I'm serious. I'm not being disrespectful. I need answers. Why the disaster of 19th Century theological liberalism that sprung from Lutheran Germany and has ruined Christianity? Why have all the historically Lutheran countries in Europe become the most atheistic countries today? Why are most Lutheran's in the Americas today so liberal? Why doesn't Lutheranism last. No matter how hard the Communists tried, they couldn't kill the Orthodox faith anywhere. They couldn't kill the Catholic faith in Poland, Hungary or Slovakia (and Czechia was a problem before Communism). But the Communists pretty effectively erased the Lutheran faith wherever it was practiced under them. Formerly Lutheran Estonia boasts itself the most atheistic country in the world.
I very much want to be Lutheran. But I'm only going to join one more church before I die. I need answers.
Why doesn't Lutheranism survive persecution? Why is it so susceptible to falling away? I'm getting old. I don't want to spend my final decades in yet another apostatizing church. If the Lutherans have the right idea, why does their fig tree bear such rotten fruit? Please help me.
Thank you.
Great question. Can someone please answer that? Why are we so weak and easily conquered?
Can you do a similar presentation but differences between LCMS and WELS? I’d like to hear the LCMS side of the split back in 1961. I grew up and was confirmed WELS and now LCMS
Love your video ... well said Sir!!!
Thank you for the great videos, Pastor! I’m a member of the ELCA and would never judge you nor anyone else of the LCMS. May God bless you this Eastertide!
We are called to judge, to discern. It's the modern pagan culture that derides judgment as wrong, mean, evil. If I'm doing wrong, I would hope someone calls me on it.
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You are so humbly joyfully SUPERB!
Can't wait to hear you at our school soon!
Thank you for the video and information. I just started attending an ELCA church several months ago. I didn't really know what the differences were between ELCA and LCMS at the time. I just assumed Lutherans were Lutherans. I grew up Pentecostal. I just knew I needed to start attending church again (I hadn't attended church regularly in many years). I feel like I tend to agree more with the LCMS on the authority of scripture. The ELCA congregation I'm now a member of was very welcoming to me and they are very close to my home. I've enjoyed going there, and so far I haven't heard anything crazy coming from the pulpit. There are not any LCMS congregations near my location, so it's not really an option. I do really enjoy your videos, and I look forward to learning more about Lutheran tradition and history.
This is great thank you!!
ELCA Lutheran here. Even though I don't agree with you in everything I enjoy your presentation!
You bring up an excellent point Pastor.. If culture is an authority and the Holy Spirit works through culture to bring us to a fuller understanding of truth, first of all which culture are we talking about? The culture of Nazi Germany? The culture of Saudi Arabia? And if they say "no" it's our culture why does the Holy Spirit work only through our culture? Why are we so special? Secondly, culture constantly changes and shifts with changing tastes, interests and lifestyles, so basically the Holy Spirit is changing all the time.
Explained very well. God bless
thanks for the explanation
I truly wish the ELCA would purge the name Lutheran from their name.
And I would love if LCMS purged the word Lutheran from their name.
@@elenastahlberg4762 LMCS are actual Lutherans but the ELCA are ironically wannabe Catholics.
Excuse me. You are making assumptions which are not true. I have had LCMS friends who proudly proclaimed they were more Catholic than the pope!
@Pastor Bryan wolfmueller's I think your account got hacked 3 weeks ago :(
Once again pastor thank you for providing the truth in love. Too often Christianity is compromising the truth of the authoritative word of God to accommodate humanities feelings. God bless you
I’m kind of ‘Church shopping’ (I’m 19) so this is really helpful I’m interested in Lutheranism, Episcopalianism and Catholicism. I think I might go catholic but this is still a great explanation.
Please I have had my experience in the Catholic Church and it has drifted away from Christ and his message, i would suggest Lutheran or Orthodox Anglican
Look up the sspx they're very conservative Christians, lcms comes to a close second, can't go wrong either way
I’m an ELCA Lutheran, but probably am closer to the world view of LCMS than ELCA. (Throw in the fact that I was educated by Jesuits and you’ll see that I’m hopelessly confused.) But I don’t feel any pressure from ELCA to change my mind about things and am comfortable going my own way within my congregation. I’m not really worried about what other members think because it’s beyond my control, and I think judging the rightness of their ideas is not for me to do. Both churches have elements that are stumbling blocks for the others’ members.
What do you think about gay marriage?
but ELCA pastors, at the bequest of the ELCA leadership, are preaching non-biblical "doctrine" to new Christians who don't know any better. This is a huge concern for me because I am one of those new Christians. You want to talk about confusion! lol My confusion about God over the last few decades of my life and the tragic consequences from it is why I began to seek Jesus in the first place. I took the first step in accepting Jesus but I need Truth, not lies. I want to know about God's love, plans , and promises for me and how God wants me to conduct my life the RIGHT way. Certainly I can read the Bible myself any time I want, but I need help interpreting things and need someone I can trust to answer my questions. Pastors not preaching God's word truthfully need to be brought out into the light about the falsehoods they are helping to spread. In short, they are in a position of authority, and that can be dangerous if they are preaching according to societal norms vs the actual Word of God. I'm willing to believe that this is happening in ignorance not deliberate ill-intent. You, and others like you, could be a witness of Truth, though. Right now more than ever we need courageous Christians to "hold the Biblical line" so to speak in the face of societal pressure.
I used to feel the same way until I was called a racist in a sermon, from the bishop. I couldn’t take it anymore. The values at my LCMS church are much more comfortable for me.
Thank you!!!
Pastor Wolfmueller is good!
Thank you Pastor Wolfmueller.
Our LCMS Pastor discusses these very major differences on almost a weekly basis during numerous bible-studies. As many of our liberal friends seem to feel there is nothing wrong with marriage between 2 men or/or 2 women, I would ask where they'd be today, if 'their' parents were both men or both women? As I write this, there is currently an ELCA woman pastor acting as an interim pastor not far from our home. She is currently married to a woman and in the process of getting a divorce from her wife. I know many of the older (over 50) folks in the congregation have left, or are in the process of leaving and looking for a new church. Today's young people are more concerned of what others think, that what God thinks. Their ears long to listen to 'what they want to hear' rather than scripture; which tells us what we should hear. Thank you for your video and helping folks see that the bible is the true word of God. If we treat God's Word as an opinion and/or a suggestion, there simply wouldn't be much hope for us.
I appreciate yout video and find it very helpful! On a related note to high criticism...
In a past video where you presented on your book at the University, a question was asked about interpretation vs the Word, which do we trust? You said it would talk a whole nother night to flesh it out...could you make a video fleshing it out it by chance?
When you listen to orthodox guys like Bryan, and people like President Harrison, and the whole Issues, Etc. gang, it makes the LCMS and the WELS versus ELCA look like Canada and the United States versus Yemen (sorry, Yemen.) Keep it up and the Synodical Conference will be back together again. Boy would Satan hate that!
Alas, Canada has the same distinctions in its Lutheran identities. I was first involved with a ELCIC, which is Canada's answer to the ELCA--so far as I know. Likewise, the LCC is Canada's answer to the LCMS.
It's more like the Ecumenical Lukewarm Church of Apostasy.
Yes....may I also offer this..... Erroneous Liberal Cunning Atheists
Examples Lutherans Can't Accept...
Degeneracy
@@memewizard8372 yes LCMS and sspx seemed to be the only ones upholding Christianity
"I think your theology is a little bit racist." - Well said!
YES
Thanks for your videos, sir. I'm still a Protestant, but I am wanting to learn more about the Lutheran Church. I appreciate your sharing the differences in the two types. I'm not a fan of the ELCA from your description. I'm actually from Fort Wayne, I know of the seminary you mentioned. Anyway thanks for the videos!
I hear ya about having ties to the ELCA. My grandfather built some of the furnishings at Abiding Love Lutheran. I really wish that church body would repent of its errors.
Repent of what errors. I see nothing wrong.
@@danielgreen1557 his attitude is what is wrong. They are same as some catholic or orthodox can be snobs like they somehow are in a position to judge their brethren. You see they are lifting themselves above.
I noticed one thing also not addressed (or I missed it) is the ELCA's ecumenism with church bodies that teach vastly different things. They are in altar and pulpit fellowship with Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans/Episcopals which all teach something vastly different about communion.
PastorBryan,
I judt found you and your video.
I want to thank you very much. You did a great job. I have been an Elder at my church for about 10 years now ( LCMS) and I have been so blessed by serving and have asked about this subject a lot.
No, I dont think you were smug on what you said. You are just confident about what the Scripture says and what you believe. It saddens me about the elca and how they chase the world to have the worlds approval and not Gods.
I am going to share your video with my Pastor.
May GOD bless you with wisdom and a long and healthy life
The LCMS subscribes to the Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord) as true and correct in their entirety. The ELCA accepts the Lutheran Confessions as true and correct only "insofar as they agree with Scripture." That opens the door.
but isn't it true that the Bible is supposed to trump all else?
Pastor, it occurred to me this morning that when a person is taking culture or reason and lifting them so highly as the ELCA is, that it also betrays a weak (at best) theology of Original Sin.
@Pastor Bryan wolfmueller's this is a hacker. Wrong name; same post over and over; trolling for money.
@@jonlindemann2797 Certainly sounds like one! Or at best a spammer
God's word should produce a change in people. People should not be changing God's word. It's not just ELCA though. My dad left his Episcopal Church, I left my Presbyterian Church, and my brother left his church (I don't remember the denomination) all because they have drifted away from scripture.
I grew up LCMS Lutheran. I am no longer Christian. But I agree 100% about culture not being a guide.
You are concise and correct. I wish you the best.
What led you away ultimately?
@@stonwall9065 The Devll
Approximately 30 years ago the late E.L.C.A. Bishop McDaniel gave a presentation at Concordia Theological Seminary, Fort Wayne, regarding his church body. He remained in it in order to try and bring it around to Scriptural faithfulness. In his presentation he clearly stated that his own church was not Lutheran (i.e., holding to the authority of God's Word as taught in The Lutheran Confessions) and if it kept going the way it was it would no longer even be Christian. He didn't mean that there were no true Lutherans/Christians in the E.L.C.A but rather that as a church body according to its doctrine and practice it could no longer claim to be Christian. He didn't live to see his prophecy come true. Today, the E..L.C.A. is not a Lutheran church body and worse not Christian. You cannot advocate open sin (abortion/murder, homosexuality, co-habitation, etc.) and be a Christian church. To every pastor and person in authority in the E.L.C.A. God's Word to Ezekiel is directly on point! Ezekiel 3:17-18 (ESV) 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me.
18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. Kyrie Eleison!
Rick Pette
You must be a pastor
@@janenelovelove2639 : I am. Pax.
Hahaha “I’m not sure if we can use this term anymore”
Good job from these WELS members also. From your perspective, what is the difference between LCMS and WELS/ELS? WELS was once part of LCMS and still today we order books and supplies from CPH when NPH doesn't have it (i.e., numbered church giving envelopes, certain youth education programs, etc.).
The Martin Luther College bookstore would be half empty if we didn't have CPH books. We wouldn't even have Walther! :)
One big differnace is WELLS doesn't have women's suffrage. LCMS says all other positions besides Pastor is man made and can be held by women, we vote in our churches too.
@@ann-marieb2593 That is mainly correct. We have 3 ministerial positions: pastor, staff minister, congregational assistant. Pastor and staff minister are men-only, but the congregational assistant position (similar to deacon or deaconess) can be a called position held by a man or women. You are correct that only men vote in WELS and many of us do what our wives tell us to do!
@@ChristianTravelers always a good policy to listen to your wife. My husband isn't a member of my church (attends occasionally) so I am apprecatiive of my vote. Also that I am able to serve as chair of the school board. Especailly since i am not a mother I feel blessed to serve our LCMS school with the gift of leadership God has given me.
@@ann-marieb2593 Blessings on your position as chairperson of the school board. Not much more important role than taking care of Jesus' little lambs.
I am not a Lutheran, but I have a TH.M from Dallas Seminary. The distinction between saying that the Bible is Gods word and saying that it contains Gods word is very important because it is a seminal idea. If it is Gods word ,then it stands in judgement of you , if you believe that it contains Gods word then you stand in judgement of it. If the ELCA is correct. then we all get to decide what God says? If the Bible is not Gods word, how could Luther argue before the Roman Church that salvation was based on faith alone authoritatively ? How did he know that part was correct?
Reformed Episcopalian here (REC/ACNA) and we have the same struggle with “The Episcopal Church” and labels like Anglican. I think Presbyterians have the same struggle with PCUSA vs PCA, OPC, Etc.
As a Swedish evangelical/bapticostal, I find this video very interesting and informative. For starters, I don't know so much about American denominations. Much of what you said Bryan about the ELCA sounded like the mainstream of the Swedish Lutheran church. I thought liberal Lutherans was a Scandinavian phenomenon, but apparently not.
I do not agree with all points of Lutheran orthodoxy, but I am totally with you regarding the status and authority of the Bible. :)
I took piano lessons for 11 years from one of the sweetest women - all the way though high school. She and her husband were pillars in their ELCA congregation, we'd hold our recitals at their church. Toward the end of my senior year, she asked where I was planning to apply for college, at the time as a music performance major. I listed a Presbyterian University, a Methodist University, an ELCA University, and a Concordia (LCMS). I knew really not much more about any of those denominations other than they were Christians, I was raised in a relatively progressive Roman Catholic parish. Her only advice was that we should be careful of Concordia, that they're "not the fun Lutherans - they're pretty mean."
I've lost touch with her over the last about 25 years, but I often wonder if she's still on board with the culture that her church has chased after. As for "us," I think it's important to keep speaking the truth - clearly, unwaveringly, and most importantly in kindness and love. But that needs to be love in the sense of concern for our neighbor's salvation - not whether or not they'll still invite us to their next barbecue.
So where did you go?
Last year I left a Presbyterian church that began lectures on inclusion (specifically LGBT....), I started visiting other churches and landed at a Lutheran church which I later found out to be ELCA. i was happy to hear that they do not agree with the modern wokeness of ELCA and will continue to do what they've done for decades. God bless.
If its not fashionable or too "smug" to call blasphemous/heretical nonsense by its name perhaps it would be more acceptable to ask of the ELCA, "On what basis do you call yourself Lutheran?" and wait for an answer. After all, their using a name under false pretenses and the LCMS can prove it with a Bible and a Small Catechism. Smug is a pretty minor offense compared to what the ELCA has inflicted on the good name of Martin Luther/ Lutheranism and the Christian religion.
Your comments about the vicissitudes of culture reminded me of a quote from N.T. Wright about making culture our guide: "The Church that forgets to say “we must obey God rather than human authorities” has forgotten what it means to be the Church. The spirit of the age is in any case notoriously fickle. You might as well, walking in the mist, take a compass bearing on a mountain goat.”
Good clarification about how the Bible (God's Holy Word) is viewed by LCMS & ELCA.
Hello pastor, you mentioned that episcopalians deny the body and the blood. I can't speak for the liberal episcopalians but In Anglican (acna and traditional) liturgy and doctrine does affirm the body and blood in the eucharist. Thank you for your video and the explanation of the differences between elca and lcms. :)
Hold fast to the Truth brother! Cling to the Word of God and don’t let go by God’s grace! Keep fighting the good fight the gates of hell will not prevail!
I found Pastor Wolfmuellers channel while searching for info on Revelation/end times. Then I watched the Elca vs Lcms video. I knew there were differences, but wow, are there a lot. I believe the same thing is happening in the United Methodist church.
My wife and I are members of an Lcms church near St Charles, IL.
We spend winters in Florida and attended a UM church until they decided to go liberal. Their attendance went from over 1000 (2 services) to less than 300 (1 service). We found an Lcms church a little farther away and attend there now. COVID may have had something to do with the drop in attendance at the UM church.