Well, he became popular in his first appearance where he started out bad because people were misleading him. Then he switched sides and has been 100% heroic for most of the time. It's really just his spin off game that is awful and gave him the Edgy the Hedgy personality. Then a few animated shows decided to take that as inspiration because it's funny. Fans of the original Shadow are not happy about that. (I remember being 14 and yelling about that a lot haha)
Finally. The kind of book content I’ve been looking for. Someone willing to look at both sides of the argument and point out genuine inconsistencies with trashy “literature”
Society encourages men to adapt and become cynical/the bad boy type. Kindness gets, far too often, taken advantage of. And it's sad that the same tropes in media keep continuing. Instead of something like Twilight being a lesson for future generations, we'll have a new version of Twilight (if there's not one out there already), and one after that, and so on. Speaking as a guy who's single, struggling with that inner cynicism is a drag. I wouldn't recommend it.
Thank you so much for having me on, Galatea! It was so much fun to get to talk to you. ❤ I totally forgot that I managed to slip in a Sunstone recommendation in there. 😅
@songweretson thank you for bringing up how tame , almost ‘wholesome’, the pulps and Robert E Howard are in comparison to these YA Romantasies. There was a rude chivalry to REH’s Conan, something lacking in modern fiction it seems.
@dreiraven3rvn457 it's that quote from Tower of the Elephant about how civilized men are more comfortable behaving badly because they know they're not going to get their skull crushed if they step out of line.
@@dreiraven3rvn457It's that quote from Tower of the Elephant about how "civilized" men can get away with bad behavior because there won't be the same consequences. (Apparently my original response to this got eaten by UA-cam, so this time I'm trying to be more delicate. XD)
Sunstone, as in the graphic novel about Bee Dee Es Em? Not judging (I really enjoyed it, although I do think it's still too much from a romanticised, male perspective), just wondered if you were referring to another Sunstone.
The other thing about people with unresolved trauma - a lot of them are compelled to read disturbing things as a form of self-harm, which they justify to themselves in various ways so they don’t have to be consciously aware of what they’re doing.
Haunting Adeline is the worst and most toxic book I've ever frkn read, I read it a couple of years back, it's so disturbing how so many women fawn over the stalker, borderline grapist, Zade Meadows. I hate it so fkn much. I love reading romance (I like dark romance when written well). But it's so difficult to find actually decent ones where the guy isn't a complete piece of shite.
I don't understand the Zafe obsession! He's such a monster! One reviewer I follow has said that a lot of these books should be classified as e*otic horror, because the romances are not romances.
Only 12 minutes in, and y’all’s point about people who only read ACOTAR type books not being able to conceptualize other types of writing is so real. I lent a book to a friend, and half way through it she still seemed confused about the fact that it was a mystery novel. It was like she wasn’t sure how to read it because it wasn’t what she was used to. Absolutely no shade to her or anyone else, but it constantly floors me how people who claim to love reading and books only stick to one very specific type of story. It’d be like saying I’m a foodie, but I only eat french fries; occasionally switching the sauce I eat them with. Again no shade, but please don’t limit your experience to one type of thing. Branch out occasionally. Eat those fries, but maybe try something new once in a blue moon.
I like purple prose, unironically, when it's well written. But I hate blank slate. Blank slates are inherently unpalatable, since nobody is a blank slate in real life.
I’ve been waiting for this one, it’s felt like it was coming down the pipeline. My wife got sucked into this whole fad a couple years ago and it’s been a constant point of tension since, so I’ll be watching this one on my own xD
@ I don’t think the MCU is involved in the widespread desemination of really toxic ideas. The dark romance stuff romanticizes really horrible people who do really horrible things
@ Yeah, that just comes down to your worldview then I guess. I’m personally not sure people need to be enjoying stories “knowing what they are” about the violent abuse of women. Kind of like they said in the video, if you substitute children, would that still be okay? It’s tricky because I also don’t want to sanitized all media, I think you can depict s*xual abuse and even s*xual abuse of minors (although how could you even do that practically, and why the hell would you want to), without it becoming a moral hazard. But the way abuse is depicted in these types of stories is a “oh god, beat me harder daddy” sort of way where the evil manipulative psychopath is the hot romantic “good guy.” I don’t know, it’s all so complicated to try and pin down morally, but I also know for a fact that Sarah J Maas knowingly allowed books with explicit sexual content to be marketed to underage people, so I don’t need much more than that to take moral issue with her and her books.
always good to see somebody else passionate about Robert E Howard’s writing, theirs plenty of other examples of strong women in Howard’s work, including some of them being the main characters, and while they might not be the main focus of the story their written with far more intelligence and agency than a lot of writing today
I'm glad you brought up that whole serial killer insanity and even more so that the fact he's nothing to look at is properly acknowledged. I feel like it makes sense to view that case in connection to the recent discussion on the decline of literacy. If we're unlearning to cricitaclly analyze texts, it's no wonder some readers of those stories cannot, in fact, tell fantasy from reality or even comprehend what they're reading. In Shadow and Bone fandom (haven't read the books, watched the show) a lot of people keep defending Alina&the Darkling ship even though that guy murdered hundreds of innocent people, violated her body autonomy and basically viewed her as an object. Add that to increased production of books -> inevitable decrease of general quality -> some bad writing is bound to become viral, reach a big audience and, well, cause harm and create demand for more bad writing. Not all YA perpetuates the shadow daddy trope, but those books that do get a lot of attention. 19:10 - I knew a part of it was the accent! (it's still only a part of it though lol)
Merry Christmas, thank you for this early Christmas present. The Bad Boy Trope is so problematic, especially the Good Girl who thinks that she can change him.
Really really dark dark romance is a lot more common in fanfics then in traditional publishing, so much so that there's a whole genre that I think of as martyrfic, and that's every tenth bad boy/good girl fic. It's always oppressively dark in tone (Manacled I would consider a milder example of it) where I think the point is that the self-insert character takes on all the sin and shame of the love interest, there's never a happy end, her reputation is ruined and everyone hates her and these fics are most often unfinished I personally don't like them, but unlike dating-a-billionere/cinderella fics, I really don't get why they exist, but some people definitely do, they're often popularish. I assume they're written by teenagers who are working though some new emotions but what baffles me is that there's never a triumph at the end, it's usually just bleak from the onset and throughout. The only emotion I can grasp is this sort of protion through taking on the social stigma of the villain
"They equate trust with submission" Exactly! Thank you for entangeling this. They also equate respect with submission. It`s not. Respect is earned and freely given to somebody you respect as your equal, not taken by domination.
because they are linked. You are only looking at submission through subjugation but submission is not only about subjugation but also submission to rightful authority which requires trust and respect. If you did respect me and trust me than submitting to my leadership would not take domination.
And you’re looking at it through the historical assumption that men do have rightful authority. … Though whether ‘rightful’ is the appropriate term was always dubious. If you draw your reasoning from the Bible, then male authority was part of the Curse. Along with death. And if we should deliberately maintain it, we should also outlaw the use of combine harvesters.
@@robertblume2951 No, if I respect you and trust you I would see you as my equal partner, not submit to you. Why would anyone submit to their partner? There is no need or request for that. The moment there is a request for that your partner isn`t trustworthy any more. There is no such thing as a "rightful authority" over your partner. Putting yourself as an autority over your partner can never be a "rightful" thing to do. I trust my partner to make snap dicisions for both of us if I cannot be present for something. He also trusts me to make decisions for both of us in a situation where I have no opportunity to consult with him. But there is no "submitting to the authority" of the other in that.
@@arsangelica6858 that makes no sense. combine harvesters only make less work. They don't invalidate the curse of work. Have you seen office space? Is Jim less cursed than his construction worker neighbor because he works behind a desk in air conditioning? As to rightful. It has nothing to do with historical assumptions or the bible. Wouldn't a democary be a rightful authority to submit to?
@@robertblume2951 No, if I respect you and trust you I would see you as my equal partner, not submit to you. Why would anyone submit to their partner? There is no need or request for that. The moment there is a request for that your partner isn`t trustworthy any more. There is no such thing as a "rightful authority" over your partner. Putting yourself as an autority over your partner can never be a "rightful" thing. I trust my partner to make snap dicisions for both of us if I cannot be present for something. He also trusts me to make decisions for both of us in a situation where I have no opportunity to consult with him. But there is no "submitting to the authority" of the other in that.
I think the trope is overused, and sincerely directed exclusively at women because men really don't like it. But in fiction anything goes. The real problem is when audiences fail to separate fiction from reality. And that's a problem coming from within the audience, and not the work of fiction or the author. In general men tend to prefer the tough but valiant hero, like Geralt of Rivia, or the young man learning to move around the world, when it comes to romance, because male readers recoil at the bad boy with disgust by default. Compare romance subplots in male oriented works to romance subplots in women oriented works. It's way too different.
I don't know that I would say it's aimed exclusively at women, since the female equivalent of the bad boy would be the femme fatale, which is an extremely popular trope.
So as a general observation and summation of the 'women like bad boys to submit to' debacle. In those books the women does end up with the most hold in the relationship. In short those books are fantasies, the beginning is the submitting/forced fantasies and then the mid-end is the power trip portion. The Red pill uses this as a co-sign that women want and are attracted to this. I disagree, most women do not want this. But you have to look deeper as to why theyre ATTRACTED to it, because they undeniably are. Women dont look @ those books and go "oh wow, i get to have control over him @ the end of book" they dont know that until they read it. They see ' hot guy, issues, dominant, hawt🥵' and thats what ATTRACTS theyre attention. They are attracted to the submission/bad boy stuff and then they are fulfilled by the power trip at the end. Its a "come for the coffee, stay for the company" type deal. So the Tate-O-Sphere isnt completely wrong
As another commenter pointed out, you also have to consider the declining media literacy, which causes people to be less able to differentiate fact from fiction. So some of them see the sorts of things that happen in these books and take it into the real world with them.
I never read Tanora Pierces' Lioness series. I think because by that time I was tired of the whole girl dresses as a boy trope, though I do get why it was popular at some point. I did really like her Emelan Universe. There are various women in dresses that are good and bad.
Galatea, when are you going to make a video about the muslims' actions on British women? I do not see any feminist against the EU/NGOs/Institutions when they are importing "bad apples". Everytime when (let's say) someone tries to do something he is labelled all the names like fascist, Putinist etc Merry Christmas!!
I dislike this romanticized retelling of the importance of art class. Art class was the only class where I got in trouble for drawing my own things instead of the 50th boring still life realism painting assignment the teacher pulled out of their ass. There's nothing really lost from it, all it does is bastardize one of my favorite hobbies, because even in art class you're punished for stepping outside the line of the other production drones and having actual creativity and individuality.
If I had to spend my entire life living a persona, putting on a performance, rendering a particular archetype to court a woman's interest... I would off myself. That's sounds like the most miserable experience in the world. I'd rather spend life in alignment with who I am, even if I don't fit nearly inside a box, than to strategically retool myself around hyper-pedantic rules around intersexual dynamics. The good news is healthy and fulfilling relationships move beyond immature fantasy.
The wanting women to submit and be obedient thing is weird. It's treated as a moral failing if they want to do anything outside of caring for the children and trying to please their husband. Like they're not allowed to have any goals or aspiations or think freely. As for men, they want us be stoic at all times, and work, and pray, that's it. They want everyone to be robots.
Some men want their little power trip every day when they come home. Especially religious men, they like to feel like little gods in their own home. Blasphemous, you would think.
so i have to suggest Korean dark romance genres , because these are a whole another level of bad boy troupe , and you can tell many problems in the korean society is in shown in these stories like lookism , cheating , competition between women , there is an author that may be worse than colleen hoover named solche , she has a story called cry or better yet beg , this story is popular for all the wrong reasons , its like the reverse of lolita with romanticised cheating , anyway right now the korean novels and manhwas are like the bodice rippers of the 70s and 80s , and these books are popular especially in certain misoginstic countries
Sorry, why would we need a separate genre for 18 - 30 year olds readers? How does that benefit the category of literature as a whole? People can self sort; the next great book isn’t going to be made for the “18-30 year old market” lol
Yeh the idea of an 18-30 market for literature sounds mildly insane. But you know maybe we’re looking at it wrong. If you see these books as a form of tv, or as internet content, maybe it makes more sense?
Can you two please make more content together! This conversation was amazing and such a unique exploration of a topic that I think needs a lot of thought and analysis!
Shadow daddy sounds very jungian, like shadow is to self, what you can't really perceive about yourself, this would be a shadow to a father figure, everything you can't admit to yourself that lacked in that relationship, and now it's taking a human form, a shadow version of a father, aka shadow daddy
That's exactly why these women are attracted to these men. Attraction is largely subconscious and formed by the relationship with the opposite sex parent growing up. Many fathers are unintentionally abusive or emotionally neglectful and this reflects usually in the men the women date in an attempt to get them to become conscious of this wound. Women end up dating versions of their fathers.
I sometimes wish the poorly writter ya had the same appeal as it did when I was 13 for the thrill of it but damn too bad I grew up healthy and unable to stand the bs
'Shadow daddies'? I'm getting too old for this crap. And the guy on the thumbnail and that story was insane. The reaction from some women was, sadly, unsurprising.
31:08ish as you said, it isn’t about dying, however it also isn’t necessarily about glory either. I would argue that it’s about dying ‘well’ when your time comes.
Thank you! That was an amazing video. However, I think it’s quite unfair to tell writers that "inserting themselves" into their books is something that is only for teenagers. I mean, if you look at any classic work of literature, you would see the same thing. For example, Myshkin from Dostoevsky’s The Idiot and Dostoevsky himself share a looot of traits in common. And you can’t tell me that Levin from Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina is not an idealized version of Tolstoy (or Dante in The Divine Comedy - I mean, this is literally self-insert fanfiction). Furthermore, the whole idea of a raisonneur in plays. So all this is not a new concept created by teenagers on AO3. I do not mean to say that S.J. Maas and Dante are the same, but self-insertion is kind of a really old trope, and I think it’s not fair to criticize someone for using it. I do agree with you on most but think this was not fair
"The woman turns the mans head" is still a concept that is based in patriachy. It`s intelligent manipulation that women had to learn in a system that didn`t give them any power. It`s the "make the man believe it was his idea" kind of getting your needs met and opinions heard. For me that`s not the goal. The goal is to actually be able to talk to your partner and have your opinions and wishes heard, not having to manipulate him on the sly to get a say in the relationship.
I agree from the "the goals is to actually..." part, what you wrote above about women not having any power is incorrect, since there were hundreds of Queens and Empresses in European history in the last 3000 years, merchants, tailors, blacksmith helpers etc. Less power is the correct form. And it would make sense, since the men were involved around logistics, tactics, leadership, infrastructure, priesthood etc. Hollywood had a negative effect on how many people view these things. In general, people would always take a good advice even if it comes from a woman and it is pretty illogical to reject the opinion of a woman while she is responsible of the education of their kids, especially if it was a boy.
Honestly I'm at the point where it doesn't matter to me how bad a book is if it encourages young people to read. I have seen so many young people who proudly declare that they never read books at all, or only read the dialog parts or declare the book as boring if the first chapter isn't filled with action and stop reading. There are so many people who can't read one single page of text without declaring "too long, didn't read". The teens who were absolutely obsessed with twilight are adults now, and I highly doubt that Edward being a psycho stalker portrayed as a romantic boyfriend lead all or even many of these people into seeking that kind of nutjobs in real life. It was just simple escapism because being a teenager is a mess. But that nutjob vampire was fascinating enough that it caused people to read multiple books. Not very good books, but a bad book is better than a good day spent scrolling tiktok.
They're not reading because a lot of them (at least in the US) were legitimately taught English wrong. Something like 75% of schools in the US still use whole language learning to teach, which has been roundly discredited as a teaching method, in favor of phonics. What this means is that reading kinda becomes a chore given how much learning English that way slows comprehension down. It's not so much that they have things they like better, (though that's absolutely a part of it) it's that the act of reading isn't all that enjoyable for them.
This woman claimed in the past that women don't want bad boys, they want kind men but are somehow mislead etc. It's all just another more complex way of avoiding taking responsibility for your choices. Women love bad boys, women love evil men and love the illusion that this evil man will be good to her.
My take (before listening) Because society gets more unstable and unstable, women crave for men that have "shadow daddy" characteristics. Capable, strong, independent, experienced, powerful. Basically someone that can keep them safe in dark times.
My entire existence is characterized by profound suffering, depicted by deep despair and marked by a constant sense of anguish, filled with overwhelming distress and relentless misery.
I had the most amazing dream, for some reason I went somewhere abd this one lady from work roughly my age knew I was sick (she's really pretty and kind). She lay down next to me and stroked my hair and head till I fell asleep in my dream lol. Best dream I've ever had. I smile thinking about it
People don’t understand that it’s not one or the other it’s both. It’s both dominant and a friend. It’s vertical relationship and horizontal relationship. Different hierarchical and similar morally horizontally
I hate it when people are like "ItS JuST FiCtIon!" because like its not? If it were then representation in media wouldn't fucking matter (and I believe it does). They never seem to have an answer to that question in the rebuttal.
My favourite bad boys are heathcliff and steerpike. Especially steerpike, he’s such a psychopath. In terms of romance novels I wouldn’t waste a second thinking about, it’s like criticising porn. It’s a fantasy.
Have you ever watched outlander? I'm interested to hear what you think of it. I see some of these tropes in there but also there is a lot more depth. I personally think the show is much better with this than the books too.
In every translation I've read, when they go to Egypt he tells her to tell pharoh she's his sister. And when they get caught, he insists he didn't lie, because she is his father's daughter.
@@minapollack4823 do you have a source? Because I did some research to check, but all I'm seeing is that she's his half sister, according to Genesis 12 and 20
@@songweretson I'm Jewish. I spent years studying the original text in the original language. I'm pretty sure Rashi, the main commentator, translates it this way.
I tried to read "monstress", but the art was so rife with little short cuts i just couldn't finish it. I have a tendency to be overly critical of art though.
Did you actually watch the video? They explain pretty well that it is a FANTASY. Women do want kind family men in reality, minus the women who have unprocessed trauma. But tell yourself that you are just an underappreciated good guy instead of finding out what your actual flaws are, if that makes you feel better.
Nah he's right. The trope is an exaggerated form of reality in some cases but mostly rings true. In life the kind family man may eventually find a woman who sees his merits but it's an easily observable phenomenon that bad boys are able to attract most women in general
@@FencingMessiah They explained it in the video: What`s called "bad boys" is men who project self-confidence and competence, both things that are attractive to women. Young women often can`t see the difference between arrogance and self-confidence, it looks similar at first glance. These men often also pretend to be kind in the beginning, it takes some skill to see that it is fake, young women don`t have the skill to see that yet. If you are self-confident and competent you won`t have to worry about competition from the "bad boys", mentally healthy women definitely prefer kindness. If you have neither confidence nor competence a (young) woman will choose the "bad boy" over you. A more mature woman (about 25 and up) who can spot the red falgs will choose neither of you in that scenario.
@@FencingMessiah They explained it in the video: What`s called "bad boys" is men who project self-confidence and competence, both things that are attractive to women. Young women often can`t see the difference between arrogance and self-confidence, it looks similar at first glance. These men often also pretend to be kind in the beginning, it takes some skill to see that it is fake, young women don`t have the skill to see that yet. If you are self-confident and competent you won`t have to worry about competition from the bad boys, mentally healthy women definitely prefer kindness. If you have neither confidence nor competence a (young) woman will choose the bad boy over you. A more mature woman (about 25 and up) who can spot the red falgs will choose neither of you in that scenario.
Man here. So did YA inadvertently create the "bad boy" trope? If the books go all the way back to the 80s, when did the term start gaining traction? That eould be WILD if the entir reason Andrew Tate is a thing is because of BookSmut.
I don't think YA invented the trope, but maybe re-packaged it for teen audience. Grease and Beverly Hills 90210 come to mind as examples of media that had it, though they, too, were about/for young people. But I'm sure if you look into classic literature you'll find that trixter-y seductor acrhetype there long before teens became a target audience for anything other than preachy stories.
A meandering conversation full of false justification, contradiction, and motivated reasoning due to over empathizing. Lots of strawmanning, waffling, and pseudo intellectualizing. The Conan stuff would be categorized as paternalistic sexism and its just a pendulum swing that it is now being respected. The wade Wilson guy is a phenomenon that happens to a few women and has happened with past serial unalivers. It's an extreme response and attraction to criminals called hybristophilia. Also, the ego on display from the guest is wild.
so like... are you gonna make a video taking accountability for the blake lively video? like i know you weren't the only creator, but you still played into a misogynistic smear campaign. this isn't hate, I'm just saying you made a video on male feminists like justin who actually hate women.
Blake lively is still a rude and self-obsessed celebrity though, her complaint against Justin is obviously valid and Justin is a total creep. But what she said in the video still stands.
@Loool_7656 and that's exactly what his pr campaign wanted people to believe (and there's a lot of evidence to prove that). like she's rude cause of 1-2 interviews 8 years ago when she was pregnant? like give her a break.
@@gm.8805 That's the least of the sht she has done. 1. She had her wedding at a former plantation. 2. She wrote a blog romanticizing the antebellum south (slavory). 3. During the promotion of a movie about domestic violence, she wanted to use this as a moment to advertise her hair care line and floral dresses rather than actually discussing the challenges the main character goes through. 4. They made a cocktail menu after the movie about domestic violence which is highly inconsiderate when alcohol tends to be involved in a lot or DV cases. 5. She's known to have been rude to fans, interviees, cast members etc. Blake is ignorant, rude and self obsessed. She's been rude to fans, cast members and in interviews, has romanticised an era w slavory, made the promotion of the movie all about advertising her clothes and haircare line. With that said, Justin definitely used this to his advantage to invalidate Blake and her very valid complaints around what a perverted creep he us.
Blake still is a very extremist and problematic person who married at a plantation and who's very unfriendly and vulgar. Sad what happened to her, and she didn't deserve it, but she's still not a good person.
“Shadow daddy” sounds infantile. “Father of Shadow” sounds like a Dark Souls boss.
Father of shadows bringer of despair...
Hail Sithis! Void Father!
Silent hill boss "Shadow Daddy"
Manus, Father of the Abyss.
look up the old Tv show called Lexx:
"I serve his Shadow"
"Giga-shadow" LOL
I'm proud of being a bad boy. I'm bad at a lot of things. *winks with both eyes*
You must be a cat. An orange one i assume.
When my daughter is a couple of years older, before she goes to college, your videos will be required viewing. Lots of wisdom and cheers for that.
If 'Bad Boys' are some how a negative trope, then explain Shadow the Hedgehog.
I'll wait.
he sells drugs to children :(
I think 90% of the answer is "furries".
Presumably because Shadow doesn’t have romantic storylines…atleast as far as I know
@@deadboispeedy2485 NO HE DOESN'T, DONT YOU DARE GOOGLE IT
Well, he became popular in his first appearance where he started out bad because people were misleading him. Then he switched sides and has been 100% heroic for most of the time. It's really just his spin off game that is awful and gave him the Edgy the Hedgy personality. Then a few animated shows decided to take that as inspiration because it's funny. Fans of the original Shadow are not happy about that.
(I remember being 14 and yelling about that a lot haha)
Never heard of “shadow daddies” in my life lmao. This knowledge isn’t the Christmas gift I was hoping for!
Finally. The kind of book content I’ve been looking for. Someone willing to look at both sides of the argument and point out genuine inconsistencies with trashy “literature”
Society encourages men to adapt and become cynical/the bad boy type. Kindness gets, far too often, taken advantage of. And it's sad that the same tropes in media keep continuing. Instead of something like Twilight being a lesson for future generations, we'll have a new version of Twilight (if there's not one out there already), and one after that, and so on.
Speaking as a guy who's single, struggling with that inner cynicism is a drag. I wouldn't recommend it.
Don’t struggle with it, embrace it. Foster it till it evolves into Stoicism.
@bannedmann4469 im absurdist personally because nothing matters and the sun will explode
Thank you so much for having me on, Galatea! It was so much fun to get to talk to you. ❤
I totally forgot that I managed to slip in a Sunstone recommendation in there. 😅
@songweretson thank you for bringing up how tame , almost ‘wholesome’, the pulps and Robert E Howard are in comparison to these YA Romantasies. There was a rude chivalry to REH’s Conan, something lacking in modern fiction it seems.
@dreiraven3rvn457 it's that quote from Tower of the Elephant about how civilized men are more comfortable behaving badly because they know they're not going to get their skull crushed if they step out of line.
@@dreiraven3rvn457It's that quote from Tower of the Elephant about how "civilized" men can get away with bad behavior because there won't be the same consequences. (Apparently my original response to this got eaten by UA-cam, so this time I'm trying to be more delicate. XD)
Sunstone, as in the graphic novel about Bee Dee Es Em? Not judging (I really enjoyed it, although I do think it's still too much from a romanticised, male perspective), just wondered if you were referring to another Sunstone.
@songweretson lol love that line from Tower of the Elephant.
The other thing about people with unresolved trauma - a lot of them are compelled to read disturbing things as a form of self-harm, which they justify to themselves in various ways so they don’t have to be consciously aware of what they’re doing.
Haunting Adeline is the worst and most toxic book I've ever frkn read, I read it a couple of years back, it's so disturbing how so many women fawn over the stalker, borderline grapist, Zade Meadows. I hate it so fkn much. I love reading romance (I like dark romance when written well). But it's so difficult to find actually decent ones where the guy isn't a complete piece of shite.
I don't understand the Zafe obsession! He's such a monster! One reviewer I follow has said that a lot of these books should be classified as e*otic horror, because the romances are not romances.
Only 12 minutes in, and y’all’s point about people who only read ACOTAR type books not being able to conceptualize other types of writing is so real. I lent a book to a friend, and half way through it she still seemed confused about the fact that it was a mystery novel. It was like she wasn’t sure how to read it because it wasn’t what she was used to. Absolutely no shade to her or anyone else, but it constantly floors me how people who claim to love reading and books only stick to one very specific type of story. It’d be like saying I’m a foodie, but I only eat french fries; occasionally switching the sauce I eat them with. Again no shade, but please don’t limit your experience to one type of thing. Branch out occasionally. Eat those fries, but maybe try something new once in a blue moon.
I like purple prose, unironically, when it's well written. But I hate blank slate.
Blank slates are inherently unpalatable, since nobody is a blank slate in real life.
I’ve been waiting for this one, it’s felt like it was coming down the pipeline. My wife got sucked into this whole fad a couple years ago and it’s been a constant point of tension since, so I’ll be watching this one on my own xD
Point of tension? As long as it's enjoyed in the way guys like the MCU, why should it cause any friction?
@ I don’t think the MCU is involved in the widespread desemination of really toxic ideas. The dark romance stuff romanticizes really horrible people who do really horrible things
@@ReraltofGivia i agree, but i also feel like adults should be able to enjoy this stuff while understanding exactly what it is
@ Yeah, that just comes down to your worldview then I guess.
I’m personally not sure people need to be enjoying stories “knowing what they are” about the violent abuse of women.
Kind of like they said in the video, if you substitute children, would that still be okay?
It’s tricky because I also don’t want to sanitized all media, I think you can depict s*xual abuse and even s*xual abuse of minors (although how could you even do that practically, and why the hell would you want to), without it becoming a moral hazard.
But the way abuse is depicted in these types of stories is a “oh god, beat me harder daddy” sort of way where the evil manipulative psychopath is the hot romantic “good guy.”
I don’t know, it’s all so complicated to try and pin down morally, but I also know for a fact that Sarah J Maas knowingly allowed books with explicit sexual content to be marketed to underage people, so I don’t need much more than that to take moral issue with her and her books.
Geeeeralt!
Have a good Christmas Galatea! Thanks for the video!
always good to see somebody else passionate about Robert E Howard’s writing, theirs plenty of other examples of strong women in Howard’s work, including some of them being the main characters, and while they might not be the main focus of the story their written with far more intelligence and agency than a lot of writing today
I did a whole video on my channel gushing about Howard's writing in general, and Conan in particular. I just love his work so much.
What people think Conan is about vs. What Conan is actually about, more or less.
Pilgrims Pass just released a video on Arwen and the power of her femininity. He talks about things that cross the same paths as this does.
Yeah, he’s pretty good. Particularly on that subject.
I'm glad you brought up that whole serial killer insanity and even more so that the fact he's nothing to look at is properly acknowledged. I feel like it makes sense to view that case in connection to the recent discussion on the decline of literacy. If we're unlearning to cricitaclly analyze texts, it's no wonder some readers of those stories cannot, in fact, tell fantasy from reality or even comprehend what they're reading. In Shadow and Bone fandom (haven't read the books, watched the show) a lot of people keep defending Alina&the Darkling ship even though that guy murdered hundreds of innocent people, violated her body autonomy and basically viewed her as an object. Add that to increased production of books -> inevitable decrease of general quality -> some bad writing is bound to become viral, reach a big audience and, well, cause harm and create demand for more bad writing. Not all YA perpetuates the shadow daddy trope, but those books that do get a lot of attention.
19:10 - I knew a part of it was the accent! (it's still only a part of it though lol)
Women themselves haves said he is attractive and he's 6'6.
@@FencingMessiah I'm a woman and that man is hideous. It's almost like we're not a completely homogeneous group or something.
Merry Christmas, thank you for this early Christmas present. The Bad Boy Trope is so problematic, especially the Good Girl who thinks that she can change him.
Really really dark dark romance is a lot more common in fanfics then in traditional publishing, so much so that there's a whole genre that I think of as martyrfic, and that's every tenth bad boy/good girl fic.
It's always oppressively dark in tone (Manacled I would consider a milder example of it) where I think the point is that the self-insert character takes on all the sin and shame of the love interest, there's never a happy end, her reputation is ruined and everyone hates her and these fics are most often unfinished
I personally don't like them, but unlike dating-a-billionere/cinderella fics, I really don't get why they exist, but some people definitely do, they're often popularish. I assume they're written by teenagers who are working though some new emotions but what baffles me is that there's never a triumph at the end, it's usually just bleak from the onset and throughout. The only emotion I can grasp is this sort of protion through taking on the social stigma of the villain
"They equate trust with submission"
Exactly! Thank you for entangeling this.
They also equate respect with submission. It`s not. Respect is earned and freely given to somebody you respect as your equal, not taken by domination.
because they are linked. You are only looking at submission through subjugation but submission is not only about subjugation but also submission to rightful authority which requires trust and respect. If you did respect me and trust me than submitting to my leadership would not take domination.
And you’re looking at it through the historical assumption that men do have rightful authority. … Though whether ‘rightful’ is the appropriate term was always dubious. If you draw your reasoning from the Bible, then male authority was part of the Curse. Along with death. And if we should deliberately maintain it, we should also outlaw the use of combine harvesters.
@@robertblume2951 No, if I respect you and trust you I would see you as my equal partner, not submit to you. Why would anyone submit to their partner? There is no need or request for that. The moment there is a request for that your partner isn`t trustworthy any more.
There is no such thing as a "rightful authority" over your partner. Putting yourself as an autority over your partner can never be a "rightful" thing to do.
I trust my partner to make snap dicisions for both of us if I cannot be present for something. He also trusts me to make decisions for both of us in a situation where I have no opportunity to consult with him. But there is no "submitting to the authority" of the other in that.
@@arsangelica6858 that makes no sense. combine harvesters only make less work. They don't invalidate the curse of work. Have you seen office space? Is Jim less cursed than his construction worker neighbor because he works behind a desk in air conditioning?
As to rightful. It has nothing to do with historical assumptions or the bible. Wouldn't a democary be a rightful authority to submit to?
@@robertblume2951 No, if I respect you and trust you I would see you as my equal partner, not submit to you. Why would anyone submit to their partner? There is no need or request for that. The moment there is a request for that your partner isn`t trustworthy any more.
There is no such thing as a "rightful authority" over your partner. Putting yourself as an autority over your partner can never be a "rightful" thing.
I trust my partner to make snap dicisions for both of us if I cannot be present for something. He also trusts me to make decisions for both of us in a situation where I have no opportunity to consult with him. But there is no "submitting to the authority" of the other in that.
I think the trope is overused, and sincerely directed exclusively at women because men really don't like it. But in fiction anything goes. The real problem is when audiences fail to separate fiction from reality. And that's a problem coming from within the audience, and not the work of fiction or the author.
In general men tend to prefer the tough but valiant hero, like Geralt of Rivia, or the young man learning to move around the world, when it comes to romance, because male readers recoil at the bad boy with disgust by default.
Compare romance subplots in male oriented works to romance subplots in women oriented works. It's way too different.
I don't know that I would say it's aimed exclusively at women, since the female equivalent of the bad boy would be the femme fatale, which is an extremely popular trope.
@@songweretsonFemme fatales are more of an entertaining fetish than a romantic love interest...for most guys, anyways.
So as a general observation and summation of the 'women like bad boys to submit to' debacle. In those books the women does end up with the most hold in the relationship. In short those books are fantasies, the beginning is the submitting/forced fantasies and then the mid-end is the power trip portion.
The Red pill uses this as a co-sign that women want and are attracted to this. I disagree, most women do not want this. But you have to look deeper as to why theyre ATTRACTED to it, because they undeniably are. Women dont look @ those books and go "oh wow, i get to have control over him @ the end of book" they dont know that until they read it. They see ' hot guy, issues, dominant, hawt🥵' and thats what ATTRACTS theyre attention. They are attracted to the submission/bad boy stuff and then they are fulfilled by the power trip at the end. Its a "come for the coffee, stay for the company" type deal. So the Tate-O-Sphere isnt completely wrong
As another commenter pointed out, you also have to consider the declining media literacy, which causes people to be less able to differentiate fact from fiction. So some of them see the sorts of things that happen in these books and take it into the real world with them.
I've never heard of 'shadow daddies' and I'm not sure my brain is prepared.
Brace for some misogyny:
Absolute natural beauty without makeup
Merry Christmas and good wishes too you too and of course your dearly departed. Happy holidays to anyone reading 💕
Happy Christmas.
Thank you for consistantly being one of the few places on this platform where I can hear a thoughtful woman actually thinking.
I never read Tanora Pierces' Lioness series. I think because by that time I was tired of the whole girl dresses as a boy trope, though I do get why it was popular at some point. I did really like her Emelan Universe. There are various women in dresses that are good and bad.
Goodness, I fully enjoyed listening to the both of you! There were many points mentioned that made my eyes widen in realization- thank you guys 👏
Galatea, when are you going to make a video about the muslims' actions on British women? I do not see any feminist against the EU/NGOs/Institutions when they are importing "bad apples". Everytime when (let's say) someone tries to do something he is labelled all the names like fascist, Putinist etc
Merry Christmas!!
Do you realize that could get her beheaded if such a video went viral?
this was a great conversation! thanks ladies :)
I saw this video and thought "Wow, you were fast to making an analysis on the reaction to Luigi Mangione"
I dislike this romanticized retelling of the importance of art class. Art class was the only class where I got in trouble for drawing my own things instead of the 50th boring still life realism painting assignment the teacher pulled out of their ass. There's nothing really lost from it, all it does is bastardize one of my favorite hobbies, because even in art class you're punished for stepping outside the line of the other production drones and having actual creativity and individuality.
If I had to spend my entire life living a persona, putting on a performance, rendering a particular archetype to court a woman's interest... I would off myself. That's sounds like the most miserable experience in the world. I'd rather spend life in alignment with who I am, even if I don't fit nearly inside a box, than to strategically retool myself around hyper-pedantic rules around intersexual dynamics. The good news is healthy and fulfilling relationships move beyond immature fantasy.
As long as you find someone mature enough for that.
The wanting women to submit and be obedient thing is weird. It's treated as a moral failing if they want to do anything outside of caring for the children and trying to please their husband. Like they're not allowed to have any goals or aspiations or think freely. As for men, they want us be stoic at all times, and work, and pray, that's it. They want everyone to be robots.
Some men want their little power trip every day when they come home. Especially religious men, they like to feel like little gods in their own home. Blasphemous, you would think.
only narcs want that
so i have to suggest Korean dark romance genres , because these are a whole another level of bad boy troupe , and you can tell many problems in the korean society is in shown in these stories like lookism , cheating , competition between women , there is an author that may be worse than colleen hoover named solche , she has a story called cry or better yet beg , this story is popular for all the wrong reasons , its like the reverse of lolita with romanticised cheating , anyway right now the korean novels and manhwas are like the bodice rippers of the 70s and 80s , and these books are popular especially in certain misoginstic countries
Sorry, why would we need a separate genre for 18 - 30 year olds readers? How does that benefit the category of literature as a whole? People can self sort; the next great book isn’t going to be made for the “18-30 year old market” lol
Yeh the idea of an 18-30 market for literature sounds mildly insane. But you know maybe we’re looking at it wrong. If you see these books as a form of tv, or as internet content, maybe it makes more sense?
@ I guess, I don’t know I don’t see a lot of “if you’re 18-30, check out true detective!” Generally media just disseminates naturally
I think the issue should be less the age itself, and more that people who are currently that age tend to have worse media literacy.
Good morning, Internet Friends,
Merry Christmas 🎄🎅
Merry Christmas to you too friend
🎶Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas
Let your heart be light 🎶
Can you two please make more content together! This conversation was amazing and such a unique exploration of a topic that I think needs a lot of thought and analysis!
Shadow daddy sounds very jungian, like shadow is to self, what you can't really perceive about yourself, this would be a shadow to a father figure, everything you can't admit to yourself that lacked in that relationship, and now it's taking a human form, a shadow version of a father, aka shadow daddy
That's actually a really good point.
That's exactly why these women are attracted to these men. Attraction is largely subconscious and formed by the relationship with the opposite sex parent growing up. Many fathers are unintentionally abusive or emotionally neglectful and this reflects usually in the men the women date in an attempt to get them to become conscious of this wound. Women end up dating versions of their fathers.
I sometimes wish the poorly writter ya had the same appeal as it did when I was 13 for the thrill of it
but damn too bad I grew up healthy and unable to stand the bs
'Shadow daddies'? I'm getting too old for this crap.
And the guy on the thumbnail and that story was insane. The reaction from some women was, sadly, unsurprising.
Most of those women give me the biggest ick. Like Song said, dud wasn't much of a looker.
They don’t want just any man to do those things, they want high status attractive men to.
Yeah and?
31:08ish as you said, it isn’t about dying, however it also isn’t necessarily about glory either. I would argue that it’s about dying ‘well’ when your time comes.
Yep. It's that, "well, this situation isn't ideal, so I might as well make it useful for someone else."
@@Batmans_Pet_Goldfish exactly
Thank you! That was an amazing video. However, I think it’s quite unfair to tell writers that "inserting themselves" into their books is something that is only for teenagers. I mean, if you look at any classic work of literature, you would see the same thing. For example, Myshkin from Dostoevsky’s The Idiot and Dostoevsky himself share a looot of traits in common. And you can’t tell me that Levin from Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina is not an idealized version of Tolstoy (or Dante in The Divine Comedy - I mean, this is literally self-insert fanfiction). Furthermore, the whole idea of a raisonneur in plays. So all this is not a new concept created by teenagers on AO3. I do not mean to say that S.J. Maas and Dante are the same, but self-insertion is kind of a really old trope, and I think it’s not fair to criticize someone for using it.
I do agree with you on most but think this was not fair
I think that as humans removed themselved from the food chain, persecution replaced predation
I remember that debate between Blair White and Candice Owens. It was when I realized that Owens was really not a nice person.
I think I was neutral to her before that. But after that, she left a bad taste in my mouth.
"The woman turns the mans head" is still a concept that is based in patriachy. It`s intelligent manipulation that women had to learn in a system that didn`t give them any power. It`s the "make the man believe it was his idea" kind of getting your needs met and opinions heard. For me that`s not the goal. The goal is to actually be able to talk to your partner and have your opinions and wishes heard, not having to manipulate him on the sly to get a say in the relationship.
I agree from the "the goals is to actually..." part, what you wrote above about women not having any power is incorrect, since there were hundreds of Queens and Empresses in European history in the last 3000 years, merchants, tailors, blacksmith helpers etc. Less power is the correct form. And it would make sense, since the men were involved around logistics, tactics, leadership, infrastructure, priesthood etc.
Hollywood had a negative effect on how many people view these things. In general, people would always take a good advice even if it comes from a woman and it is pretty illogical to reject the opinion of a woman while she is responsible of the education of their kids, especially if it was a boy.
Honestly I'm at the point where it doesn't matter to me how bad a book is if it encourages young people to read. I have seen so many young people who proudly declare that they never read books at all, or only read the dialog parts or declare the book as boring if the first chapter isn't filled with action and stop reading. There are so many people who can't read one single page of text without declaring "too long, didn't read".
The teens who were absolutely obsessed with twilight are adults now, and I highly doubt that Edward being a psycho stalker portrayed as a romantic boyfriend lead all or even many of these people into seeking that kind of nutjobs in real life. It was just simple escapism because being a teenager is a mess. But that nutjob vampire was fascinating enough that it caused people to read multiple books. Not very good books, but a bad book is better than a good day spent scrolling tiktok.
They're not reading because a lot of them (at least in the US) were legitimately taught English wrong. Something like 75% of schools in the US still use whole language learning to teach, which has been roundly discredited as a teaching method, in favor of phonics.
What this means is that reading kinda becomes a chore given how much learning English that way slows comprehension down. It's not so much that they have things they like better, (though that's absolutely a part of it) it's that the act of reading isn't all that enjoyable for them.
Merry Christmas 🎄 ❤
Merry Christmas 🎄 Galatea!
Great video!
This woman claimed in the past that women don't want bad boys, they want kind men but are somehow mislead etc. It's all just another more complex way of avoiding taking responsibility for your choices. Women love bad boys, women love evil men and love the illusion that this evil man will be good to her.
Women would rather end themselves before taking accountability 😂
My take (before listening)
Because society gets more unstable and unstable, women crave for men that have "shadow daddy" characteristics. Capable, strong, independent, experienced, powerful. Basically someone that can keep them safe in dark times.
Merry Christmas 🎄🎁
Merry Christmas Everyone!!
My entire existence is characterized by profound suffering, depicted by deep despair and marked by a constant sense of anguish, filled with overwhelming distress and relentless misery.
Merry Christmas and happy 2025 gorgeous!!
Merry Christmas everyone 🎉
51:04 "I have a friend who's my co host"
RIP
Oooh! A Christmas Surprise!
I had the most amazing dream, for some reason I went somewhere abd this one lady from work roughly my age knew I was sick (she's really pretty and kind). She lay down next to me and stroked my hair and head till I fell asleep in my dream lol. Best dream I've ever had. I smile thinking about it
People don’t understand that it’s not one or the other it’s both. It’s both dominant and a friend. It’s vertical relationship and horizontal relationship. Different hierarchical and similar morally horizontally
I hate it when people are like "ItS JuST FiCtIon!" because like its not? If it were then representation in media wouldn't fucking matter (and I believe it does). They never seem to have an answer to that question in the rebuttal.
Merry Christmas to you and your kin.
Merry Christmas
for the Algorithm and Merry Christmas!
Bad Boy (immature): Rhysand
Bad Men (mature): Ebenezer Scrooge
Bah humbug!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
What this would be is entries in the YA genre that are written the way they would be online… as fan fiction.
Wish everyone who reads this a Merry Christmas! To you and Yours, Cheers!
Yeah Maas did compare her writing to Tolkien, she said she was as good at writing about trauma
My favourite bad boys are heathcliff and steerpike. Especially steerpike, he’s such a psychopath. In terms of romance novels I wouldn’t waste a second thinking about, it’s like criticising porn. It’s a fantasy.
She reminds me of my mother 😊
Have you ever watched outlander? I'm interested to hear what you think of it.
I see some of these tropes in there but also there is a lot more depth. I personally think the show is much better with this than the books too.
How is this different from Pamela by Richardson ?
merry christmas
The "bad boy" became just evil man...
1:02:50 No, they're uncle and niece.
In every translation I've read, when they go to Egypt he tells her to tell pharoh she's his sister. And when they get caught, he insists he didn't lie, because she is his father's daughter.
@@songweretson Brother's daughter. In old Hebrew the child of a relative is considered to be like said relative, i.e. a grandchild is like your child.
@@minapollack4823 do you have a source? Because I did some research to check, but all I'm seeing is that she's his half sister, according to Genesis 12 and 20
@@songweretson I'm Jewish. I spent years studying the original text in the original language. I'm pretty sure Rashi, the main commentator, translates it this way.
Haha welcome back yourself, it’s been a while 😂
I tried to read "monstress", but the art was so rife with little short cuts i just couldn't finish it. I have a tendency to be overly critical of art though.
Its not a trope really women like excitement and danger. In this day and age good luck if you are a kind family man..shadow daddys man i give up 😂
Did you actually watch the video? They explain pretty well that it is a FANTASY. Women do want kind family men in reality, minus the women who have unprocessed trauma. But tell yourself that you are just an underappreciated good guy instead of finding out what your actual flaws are, if that makes you feel better.
Nah he's right. The trope is an exaggerated form of reality in some cases but mostly rings true. In life the kind family man may eventually find a woman who sees his merits but it's an easily observable phenomenon that bad boys are able to attract most women in general
@@FencingMessiah They explained it in the video: What`s called "bad boys" is men who project self-confidence and competence, both things that are attractive to women. Young women often can`t see the difference between arrogance and self-confidence, it looks similar at first glance. These men often also pretend to be kind in the beginning, it takes some skill to see that it is fake, young women don`t have the skill to see that yet.
If you are self-confident and competent you won`t have to worry about competition from the "bad boys", mentally healthy women definitely prefer kindness.
If you have neither confidence nor competence a (young) woman will choose the "bad boy" over you. A more mature woman (about 25 and up) who can spot the red falgs will choose neither of you in that scenario.
@@anthill1510 So glad you can immediately tell everyone who they are, unprompted.
@@FencingMessiah They explained it in the video: What`s called "bad boys" is men who project self-confidence and competence, both things that are attractive to women. Young women often can`t see the difference between arrogance and self-confidence, it looks similar at first glance. These men often also pretend to be kind in the beginning, it takes some skill to see that it is fake, young women don`t have the skill to see that yet.
If you are self-confident and competent you won`t have to worry about competition from the bad boys, mentally healthy women definitely prefer kindness.
If you have neither confidence nor competence a (young) woman will choose the bad boy over you. A more mature woman (about 25 and up) who can spot the red falgs will choose neither of you in that scenario.
mer chrismna
Man here. So did YA inadvertently create the "bad boy" trope?
If the books go all the way back to the 80s, when did the term start gaining traction?
That eould be WILD if the entir reason Andrew Tate is a thing is because of BookSmut.
I don't think YA invented the trope, but maybe re-packaged it for teen audience. Grease and Beverly Hills 90210 come to mind as examples of media that had it, though they, too, were about/for young people. But I'm sure if you look into classic literature you'll find that trixter-y seductor acrhetype there long before teens became a target audience for anything other than preachy stories.
No. It's a trope adapted from real life observations of women in general sometimes exaggerated for effect and entertainment.
@@Shockguey Bad boy trope goes back to Wuthering Heights at least.
No trophe or fantasy is bad, the problem is the People that believe it can be real.
A meandering conversation full of false justification, contradiction, and motivated reasoning due to over empathizing. Lots of strawmanning, waffling, and pseudo intellectualizing. The Conan stuff would be categorized as paternalistic sexism and its just a pendulum swing that it is now being respected. The wade Wilson guy is a phenomenon that happens to a few women and has happened with past serial unalivers. It's an extreme response and attraction to criminals called hybristophilia. Also, the ego on display from the guest is wild.
Oh wow, so many big words. How about some examples?
so like... are you gonna make a video taking accountability for the blake lively video? like i know you weren't the only creator, but you still played into a misogynistic smear campaign.
this isn't hate, I'm just saying you made a video on male feminists like justin who actually hate women.
Blake lively is still a rude and self-obsessed celebrity though, her complaint against Justin is obviously valid and Justin is a total creep. But what she said in the video still stands.
@Loool_7656 and that's exactly what his pr campaign wanted people to believe (and there's a lot of evidence to prove that).
like she's rude cause of 1-2 interviews 8 years ago when she was pregnant? like give her a break.
@@gm.8805
That's the least of the sht she has done. 1. She had her wedding at a former plantation. 2. She wrote a blog romanticizing the antebellum south (slavory). 3. During the promotion of a movie about domestic violence, she wanted to use this as a moment to advertise her hair care line and floral dresses rather than actually discussing the challenges the main character goes through. 4. They made a cocktail menu after the movie about domestic violence which is highly inconsiderate when alcohol tends to be involved in a lot or DV cases. 5. She's known to have been rude to fans, interviees, cast members etc. Blake is ignorant, rude and self obsessed. She's been rude to fans, cast members and in interviews, has romanticised an era w slavory, made the promotion of the movie all about advertising her clothes and haircare line.
With that said, Justin definitely used this to his advantage to invalidate Blake and her very valid complaints around what a perverted creep he us.
Blake still is a very extremist and problematic person who married at a plantation and who's very unfriendly and vulgar. Sad what happened to her, and she didn't deserve it, but she's still not a good person.