I agree with Garm Bel Iblis. The Separatists were right in their cause at the wrong time. The Sith Grand Plan was genius and worked perfectly. Shame it was at the expense of the Outer Rim.
The Jedi were definitely mislead and blindsided. They would have left the Republic, too, if they knew more. The Clone Wars shows the pointlessness of war, but it also showed how grey war can be, particularly in participants of war. Some might be genuine scumbags, some might be victims, some might be simply fighting on the wrong side - often times from manipulation, which both the Republic and the CIS were victims of on the deepest level by Sith influence in the galactic shadows.
That is the power of propaganda. It forces you to think emotionally instead of logically and considering most people are emotional it is no wonder logic often loses
Well they were fighting for the right reasons, it’s just that those reasons were being exploited and manipulated. They were just unaware of what they were truly fighting for.
@@spectralace314the problem was the Republic was too big and too old for it to make the kind of changes it needed. Both the Republic and the Separatists had points but they were both co opted by the Sith
Separatist holdouts: We want to not be part of the Empire or Republic All other factions: I missed the part where that’s my problem… I’m gonna put some dirt in your eye. Look at little Dooku Jr, gonna cry?
I’ve always had a soft spot for the people of the CIS and the leaders who weren’t aware of the mega corporations running it behind the scenes. Now and again I imagine Dooku turning to a more Nightisister-ish view of the force and leading the CIS for real while offering an alternative to the Jedi for force sensitives. Instead of slaves to the Republic, these force sensitives take a more hands-on approach to fighting evil and corruption.
There were many separatists that had those legitimate grievances, but that message got so lost in the wake of people like Dooku, grievous, and Gunray that I doubt many in the Republic and later the Rebels even knew about it
After the episode that introduced Mina and Lux Bonteri, I started feeling bad for the Separatists, knowing that they were stuck in the middle of a no-win situation and were nothing but pawns in the Sith's game, dehumanized by the likes of General Grievous and Nute Gunray, made to look like savages and war criminals for wanting to be independent.
The thing to understand about Garm Bel Iblis (he's still canon for me) was that he was always considered to be something of a blinkered old radical in the Republic Senate - with borderline separatist views on Corellia, his home system - and even in the Alliance later on. He often took positions that made little sense to many at the time (opposing a Republic military even when the Clone Wars was at its height, when Coruscant was besieged), even among his fellow peace party members. Often he was seen as looking out for Corellia's interests first, the Republic's second. So it was easy for Palps to paint him as a stubborn obstructionist or blinkered contarian with Correlian separatist leanings, who just opposed eveything Palpatine did whatever the situation. Even when he became a major political figure in the Alliance, much of his positions seem to have been considered fringe. Sadly, he was totally right on this issue of former Seps - but because of his track record and general disposition, his peers didn't take his concerns seriously.
0:20 That reminds me of one of the nu-canon Marvel Star Wars comics, where Luke meets a retired mercenary and asks him whether he fought for the Republic or the Empire (later turns out it was both). The mercenary responds saying he's not sure when the transition *really* happened, that the Republic had already become the Empire well before it *officially* became the Empire.
I also can't find it online, but I remember that one of the Legends-era "Essential Guide" books has quotes from a speech Palpatine made to the Senate where he goes all-in on calling the Rebel Alliance the new Separatists.
I've always wondered what the Star Wars setting would of been like if Palpatine's plans worked too well, causing both the Republic and the CIS to fracture into innumerable independent systems. He only is able to seize Corusant and a number of inner core worlds to establish his empire, the Jedi suffer heavy losses but still are able flee mostly intact, the Kaminoans set about creating their own empire with their own clone army, Pre Vizsla takes Mandalore and Grievous becomes leader of an independent Kalee, as well as countless other possible stories of new rising empires. I personally think Star Wars would be an more interesting and rich setting if that were the case.
Certainly a good fit for an RPG setting, which is one of Star Wars's great weaknesses - GMs have to go far from the canon era, one way or another, to escape the feeling that nothing in the game matters because the *real* heroes will still resolve the situation.
That would be so wild. - With so many smaller interstellar powers, there’d be a multitude of places for Jedi survivors to operate openly beyond Palpatine’s reach. There would even be multiple smaller Jedi orders, likely loosely aligned into a coalition that operates across multiple nations. - The Empire would be fighting its neighbors in multiple wars of conquest. Mandalore would likely act as a middleman between Dooku’s Confederacy and, say, the loose confederation of the Outer Rim Territories and a possible constitutional monarchy based out of Naboo. - Hutt Space would regularly poke the bear that is the Outer Rim Territories. - Don’t forget about the Chiss Ascendancy chilling out in the Unknown Regions.
Here we go again, folks! Brace yourselves: Sith Wars Chapter III / Republic Dark Age II is coming! XD See, if Disney and Kethleen Kennedy weren't such ABSOLUTE ASSHOLES, they could have branched Star Wars into a Multiverse of Timelines just like Marvel. We could have had awesome stories like this one without upsetting the original Legends timeline, and everyone would be happy! But NOOOO! Cause PC Woke and bullshit like that.
The Separatists completely had a point. They were taxed without adequate representation, if any at all, their resources were stolen to enrich the colonialist Core, entire criminal empires (most notably the Hutts) and pirates ran rampant throughout their space, and their desire for self-representation was answered by ruthless aggression, cumulating in the Empire they feared becoming a reality. It was criminal that the Rebels didn't recognize their grievances (pardon the pun), and do something, ANYTHING to address it when they came into power. The regular, everyday people of the Outer Rim were once again screwed over.
I would have liked to hear Dooku's side to this. Considering he built his reputation on fighting corruption I lean more toward the mouse just not understanding characters
@@vikingsword3485a Disney oversight is possible and typical. Even though it is Brad Rau supervising and Dave Filoni developing it, would not be surprised if higher-ups told them to “mAkE dOoKu eViL aNd LeSs CoMpLeX” unfortunately
Many people try to demonize certain people as a way to make sure they don't follow the same example as they did before. The CIS while for the most part were right in what they were saying unfortunately had that happen to them. It's a sad thing, but ironically it still happens even in real life.
This is part of why I'm interested in stories hundreds or thousands of years ABY. That time frame might allow the galaxy to finally accept the good parts of what the Separatists were fighting for.
I find it perplexing that the Rebels claim the moral high ground (please no Obi-Wan memes) when it was the very government they wanted to restore that not only allowed Palpatine to rise to power, but even applauded when the latter turned the Republic into the Empire.
The republic was an institution that lasted some 25000 years and had held the galaxy together and pulled it back from more than one abyss (see all the sith wars), that kind of legacy is a powerful thing and while the republic wasnt perfect even before the clone wars *cough* Pius Dea *cough* the empire only came about and lasted for less than a thousandth the time. For comparison, the allies didnt destroy or erase Germany or Japan for all of their war crimes during ww2 instead they reformed them and got them to clean up their act. Not a perfect solution perhaps but a sight better than many an alternative.
@@stevenschnepp576 I understand what you said, but look at this way. The Rebel Alliance had the goal to restore the Republic. The same Republic that fell into corruption and stagnation and was toppled from the inside by a guy that became their head of state through legal means (the methods he used were evil, but he was legally elected).
I do think the Separatists had genuine reasons to fight the Republic, but were ultimately meddled down by the corporations that fueled them/Palpatine's influence
The Confederacy had a very noble goal in allowing the systems to govern themselves, and I believe that the Jedi should have never intervene in the Clone Wars as this was clearly the line that the Jedi should have never crossed as the conflict wasn’t about the Sith Resurgence, but the infighting against a corrupt government that was clearly taking advantage of the Outer Rim. The Rebel Alliance should have allowed for the Separatists, because it will allowed a coalition of ideals to create a new government that will help all people of the Galaxy, but clearly the opinions of a tyrannic government govern by a egomaniacal dictator who already spun lies about the Rebels from their ruthless tactics and undermining the Empire the citizens daily lives, so really why not help rehabilitate the image of the Confederacy like how they rehabilitate the image of the Jedi.
It is much easier to trick someone than convince them they have been tricked is the short answer. Considering the CIS lost the war they had no leadership and it is much easier to convince one leader with thousands of men under his command than each person one by one
The Separatists did have a point but it was one that the likes of Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and other senior Rebel leaders - most of whom were Core Worlders and from the ruling classes of said planets which benefited from the exploitation of the Outer Rim - could never accept or believe.
Poor seppies, they're really not noticed by Lucasfilm nowadays. I know that Count Dooku has been getting some love in the spotlight (and I am ECSTATIC about this!), but the rest of the separatists? Not even a comic book about them. As separatist fan, this saddens me, especially with General Grievous, he is such an awesome character. Honestly I would love a series about how the separatist holdouts fought the empire. I think it would be interesting...am I the only one?
Yeah I’m with you! But no, all they want to do is stuff with the rebels, clones or the jedi. YES that stuff is great but BUT we’ve gotten so much of that already
@@jaxsonlambert9750 I know right? Oh, don't forget Mandalorians, Disney is obsessed with them right now. Honestly, the only bad guys Lucasfilm seems to care about is Darth Vader and Maul. Again, nothing wrong with these characters, but we get a lot of content about them and not much else. Glad to know that I am not the only star wars fan who feels this way
I think the rebel alliance should have worked with the separatists because although the Empire could have used that as propaganda to villainize the rebellion they could have simply kept their alliance secret, and it would have provided more man power, weapons, freedom of movement and potential bases of operation in the outer rim, and when the galactic civil war ended and the new republic was formed it would have been easier to come to an accord with the separatists since they would have worked together against a common enemy.
Well they couldn't keep it secret for long but the main reason is that the empire would and did call the rebels seperatists anyways. You might as well reclaim the narative and make it a point that the whole war was indeed orchestrated by palpatine.
There is no Empire if the Separatists get, well separate. The entire Clone War was designed to ultimately consolidate all the political and financial power under the guise of the Emperor. So allowing the Separatists to leave wouldn't have provided Palps with what he needed.
@@chrismenary3340 your comment assumes a rebel alliance, and such a thing would not have existed had the Separatists been allowed to separate. However, there is a good chance that even staunch Republic supporters like Mon Mothma would have seen how the Separatists were probably correct.
@@dylaneagen880 Huh, Ive only heard that the Empire was being largely inspired from the German Third Reich ("Stormtrooper" being a probable ref to "Sturmabteilung"). While i can definitely see the similarities between the Rebellion and the Viet Cong, the resemblance between the Empire and the US Military is sadly lost on me. As such, I would be greatly interested to hear some examples of the connection between the Empire and the US Military.
@@henrydawson8767 From what I understand, the only reference to the Empire being the US and the Rebellion being the Viet Cong was in regards to Episode VI specifically
So, because no one could ever admit that the Separatists were right, the New Republic carried with it most of the flaws of the Old Republic ... and that paved the way for the First Order's rise to power? Well, that's as good an explanation as any for how we got from the end of "Return of the Jedi" to "The Force Awakens."
@@highlyopinionated5611 As opposed to the actual sequel trilogy that started far too similar to the original trilogy and then fucking it all up spectacularly?
“History is written by victors” applies here in perhaps the saddest way. The Separatists were probably the most exploited yet hated political ideology in the Star Wars Galaxy. Definitely a tragic story, regardless of their rightness or wrongness.
It’s just like Darth Sidious said to Anakin. “Don’t believe the dogmatic view of the Jedi.” Yes, they were great Jedis, but their allegiance was to the Senate and The Republic. Not to the Will of The Force. In tales of the Jedi, we see that time and time again. I see why Count to Dooku left the Jedi order. The Republic and Senate was under the control of a Sith Lord and all the corporations. It’s was not represented by the people anymore, except for the delegation of the 1000. But they were also complicit in some of the actions of the Senate as well so their hands are a little dirty in this matter as well. Wow, how does life imitates art in this on what’s happening in our world today
4:33 I've never seen that design, that's a cool design. Is that EU? Was that a subdivision of the Alliance, or New Republic? It looks cool, like something I wouldn't expect to see the Alliance with, but could. Do I side with the Separatists? Case by Case basis. There were Separatists who actually had similar values to the Republic, and they felt if the Republic learned it's lesson they would be loyalists again. Just like when a lot of Disillusioned Imperials woke up and smelled the coffee. Seps were a flawed proto Rebel Alliance, used as disposable ctrl opposition, scape goats, and boogie men. The Republic was already a proto empire, it just didn't realize it yet because it had a layer of plausible deniability. I think Separatists are going to be like those Conspiracy Theorists that wound up being right about a lot of things, but because they said the wrong thing at the wrong time, got framed, or a bunch of negative extremist stereotypes crashed their party and sunk their image (guilt by association), possibly as a government psyop, they would be ignored. Ezra Bridger knew how to take the reasonable survivors of the clone wars, both republic and seps, and convert them to the Rebel Alliance.
@stevenschnepp576 Not really, unless Palpatine had deemed it so. Without Palpatine the vast vast majority of the CIS would be as they were publicly, with absolutely no Separatist Council hiding in the shadows.
@@SockieTheSockPuppet The mega-corps were the ones making all of those droids and ships though. Trusting them not to use them to maintain their dominance would be unwise.
@@RorikHhowever, without the Sith intervention, the mega-corporations would have mostly stayed neutral or aligned with the Republic, because the advantages of joining a more democratic government would be marginal.
Not only do I agree with Garm, but I 100% sympathize with the Separatists. Not the mega corporations, mind you, but the Separatists who genuinely wanted independence from the Core Worlds. I don’t expect Mon Mothma or Bail Organa to be able to understand or sympathize with the average Separatist. After all, the Republic they want to restore was of the Core Worlds, by the Core Worlds, and for the Core Worlds. At no point did the Republic ever try to hide that member worlds that were not Core Worlds mattered less, and the Outer Rim didn’t matter at all regardless of membership status. Organa and Mothma were from high class places of privilege who had no idea what it was like to be raised on a poor world that’s constantly exploited by a few worlds on the other side of the galaxy with the blessing of the galactic government. That’s somewhere I think Star Wars really puts the real world into perspective. There are many people in the world who are raised in poor countries that are exploited by far off governments, often with the UN either approving or turning a blind eye. That’s even true for certain US states. You can’t expect a rich person from New York City or London to understand the predicament of a poor person in Guatemala.
This is why I'm currently working on a star wars alternate universe with the Separatists being far different, mainly in that it is an actual grassroots revolution.
Okay, I’m sorry but I have to disagree. At least in Canon, the Republic isn’t exactly portrayed to be beyond all help. The whole point of the Clone Wars was to transform the Republic into the Empire. That is consistently shown to be the point of the conflict. And I’m not sure about saying the Republic was always on the side of corporations. Yes, it was the Senate which gave the corporations so much power in both Canon and Legends that they had their own political representation and their own militaries. They let the corporations act as representatives of the Republic in the Mid and Outer Rim. But I wonder if this relationship was starting to die out by the Prequels. The Invasion of Naboo begins because the free trade zones were taxed to divert funds and profits from the Trade Federation to boost both the Republic and the Outer Rim. Doesn’t that suggest even the Senate began to realize how out of control they had let the corporations become? Now to be fair, Nute Gunray was able to escape prosecution in several trials and the corporations survived to the Clone Wars. And yes, the Republic basically allowed the corporations to claim neutrality despite openly funding and supporting the CIS military. There was still corruption and gridlock happening in the Senate. It is true the CIS made several points. Corruption, gridlock, and planets being taxed only to get nothing in return like security from the Jedi Order and Judicial Forces because of the Senate. Still, I wouldn’t label the pre-Clone Wars Galactic Republic as imperialist, at least in Canon. The Canon Republic Pre-Clone Wars seemed to have major hands-off approach. It almost comes off as lazy. This seems to be a mixture of apathy and many senators being paid to look the other way. However the imperial remarks seem more like something that would pop up during the Clone Wars when the actual legislation that creates the Empire got passed. The Separatists do make the argument that they are fighting the growing tyranny of the Galactic Republic and also say they blame the Republic for not accepting the peace deal they offered, but the blame mostly falls on their own military. Canon shows that even during the Clone Wars, the Galactic Republic could be reasonable. They call off their peacekeeping forces that would have been sent to Mandalore and they do actually consider the peace deal before the power grid attack on Coruscant. Even in the last year of the war, they actually agree to let Rush Clovis become the new head of the Intergalactic Banking Clan despite being both a former Separatist and also being supported by the Separatists to become the new leader and root out corruption. Now, I’m not saying the Separatist Parliament is evil. Canon has proven that to be simply false. It was the Parliament that offered the peace deal in the first place and just like the Republic they give Clovis to okay to take over the Banking Clan. The issue however is what the hell were they doing with how the Separatist Military was run by the Separatist Council. The Republic didn’t become the Empire just because it’s citizens and senators wanted to conquer the galaxy. They transformed the Republic into the Empire because of the threats to their peace, security, and freedoms. The Republic Senate deserves criticism for letting things get bad enough that Palpatine became chancellor. After that, his manipulations ensured any reasonable methods the Senate and Republic could go for would be unpopular. But what was the deal with the Separatist Parliament. It was the Separatist military that basically pushed the Republic to become a tyrannical empire. How is it Dooku can order a massacre and then get a humanitarian award soon afterwards? The Separatists are nowhere close as evil as the Galactic Empire, but to say the Republic is ignores the whole point of the Clone Wars. And while the Republic willingly became the Empire, you still have to ask why the Separatist Parliament were unable to put a leash on Dooku and the Separatist Council. You know, let’s bring up the lead-up to the Clone Wars anyways. The Military Creation Act seems to have had the Republic divided. For all we know, it could have gone either ways and even if it was passed, odds are that opposing senators would quickly propose an opposition bill like we see Padme and her allies do after a bill is passed to create more clones. Palpatine has Dooku form a military with corporations and ensures Jedi and a Senator are captured and sentenced to be executed so the democratic process can be thrown out the window. It’s thanks to Geonosis that the Emergency Powers Act is granted to Palpatine and thus allows the creation of the Grand Army of the Republic. What if Palpatine instead let the democratic process play out? Now, odds are the Senate would pass the Military Creation Act out of fear of the new droid army, but that doesn’t mean war would begin. First, it would take time to build up an army and I’m not sure if the Republic would take the clones if there wasn’t a war just yet. They aren’t desperate. Palpatine and Dooku would have to engineer an incident to occur and I think the war would quickly become unpopular to both sides. Separatists would feel guilty for sending droid armies against organic soldiers while the Republic gets tired of sending young blood to their deaths. The basic point is that without the manipulations of the Sith, things wouldn’t be as bad as they are. They certainly can still be far better, but just as the “True” Separatists aren’t monsters, it’s the same thing for the Republic. It’s quite corrupt, but not evil. That’s thanks to Palpatine and the Separatist Military striking fear in the heart of the Republic.
All very good points. As much as I love Geetsly's content, I hate how in recent years they seem to be ignoring the good the Republic did. Sure, the Republic has many flaws, there is no denying that, but it has just as much good too. There were many good people in the Republic, even during the Clone Wars and even still after it became the Empire as Bad Batch has shown, be they good Jedi like Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Plo Koon, maybe Anakin he's a little debatable, good Clones like Rex, Echo, Fives, Cody, and so on, and even some good Senators like Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, and Chuchi. These individuals always tried to do the right and good thing, they saved the Togura people from the Zygerrian slavers, Padme and her allies always tried to negotiate for peace to end the war, Cody still tried to save civilians and tried to resolve the Separatist Holdout he and Crosshair attacked in the Bad Batch with peaceful negotiations just like Oobi-Wan taught him, and Chuchi and some other Senators still keeps fighting for the rights of Clones and demilitarization and just leaving worlds alone now that the Clone Wars are over. The Republic and Empire are two very different things, despite the similarities they share, that's why many still fought for and tried to restore it after the Empire rose to power, because they believed in the true Republic, not what it had become near the end of the Clone Wars. The Republic wasn't the Empire at the start, and it wasn't guaranteed to become the Empire even when the Clone Wars first started. Like you said, it was still the Republic during the start of the war. You were right, Palpatine's plan with the Clone Wars was to widdle away all the good that was left in the Republic at this time, leaving only the bad and guaranteeing the only outcome for it would be it becoming the Empire. The manipulations of the Sith guaranteed the worst possible outcome, without them, there might have been a decent chance for a better outcome and solution for both the Republic and the CIS. But sadly, thanks to the manipulations of the Sith all the good was eventually exterminated and I'd say around the time of the Outer Rim Sieges it was an Empire, with only a few specs of good from the old Republic left in it, which were eventually wiped away with the execution of Order 66, the decommissioning of the Clones, and the arresting/executing of the Delegation of the 2000, those things were the final nails in the coffin. Also, nice point bringing up Geonosis. I remember a video by The Lore Master, where he pointed out that the Battle of Geonosis was staged to make both sides think the other was the evil aggressor. For the Republic, them learning about the Droid Army, the corrupt cooperations involvement, and Dooku being a Sith, were all red flags about how dangerous the CIS was, as even those Jedi and Senators like Padme who were opposed to the war were now onboard as they saw it as a matter of self-defense. Whereas the Separatists, thanks to Dooku's propaganda, thought the two Jedi and Padme were on an espionage mission for the Republic to sabotage the CIS, thus they were in their legal rights to execute those that trespassed on CIS space to do harm and when the Jedi and Clones attacked to rescue them they saw it as violating the CS's laws and rights with an aggressive attack, thus justifying the deployment of the Droid Army in an act of self-defense. The Sith were really good at getting the good people on both sides to fight each other. It's lie Ezra told Rex and Kalanni, "Clones and Droids(and by extension all the other good people on both sides like the Jedi and Senators from both groups) you destroyed each other, and when you were all weakened the Empire came in and took over." Palpatine and his allies were always the true enemies, but all the good people on both sides were tricked into fighting and weakening each other instead, thus Palpatine and the others could swoop in and wipe them out and win it all.
@@zexalbrony4799 Nice to see someone agree with me, but I do feel I should be a little more fair to the Separatists. Dooku took full control of the Shadowfeed Network and of course they aren’t going to believe the Holonet since it was nationalized by the Republic. And as great as it would feel to show Separatists all the horrible things they did and how it made the Republic become the threat they feared, it would feel like telling a child that their hero is a villain. I mean, look at the former Separatists in the Bad Batch and the Mandalorian, or Mina Bonteri herself. They have so much faith in Dooku and see him as a hero. Dooku even gets a humanitarian award in the last year of the war. Nossor Ri and the Quarren really thought the Separatists would help them out. How did Lux react upon learning the hero of the Confederacy murdered his mother to destroy all hopes of peace? I mean, imagine if the entire Rebel Alliance turned out like Saw Gerrera. Wouldn’t that hurt to see people with legitimate issues become villains that are as bad or in a few cases even worse than their enemy? We’ve already seen several Republic characters reflect on the past and how they failed to save the Republic, but we haven’t really seen that with the Separatists yet and I’m torn if I want to. Again, it would be satisfying given all the horrible things the CIS did, but who wants to tell a freedom fighter that they actually made things worse?
@@tristankawatsuma8962 Yeah, you are right about the Separatists, many of them were good and decent people, like Mina and Lux, the ones from The Bad Batch, and the Nosaurians and they deserve a fair shake after everything. Although I disagree with the one from Mandalorian season 3, that dude was kind of nuts, I mean his planet was thriving, his people were happy, the Droids were even happy, and the New Republic was pretty much leaving the planet alone, the wound caused by the Clone Wars and Galatic Civil War was closed and healing, but because a former Imperial, who honestly looked like he was trying to reform and be a a better person, got to join and be apart of the planet he just couldn't let the wound heal because he couldn't let it go. He was clearly the one in the wrong with his actions against his planet, he was kind of like Saw Gerra he had taken things way to far.
The problem with the separatists is that they REALLY had a good point, but it pretty much got undermined the moment they allowed themselves to be ruled by a bunch of corporations, many of which were atleast partly responsible for the Republics corruption. Not to mention they were also oppenly allied with a bunch of Goverments that were openly (and proudly) pro-slavery like the Zygerirans.
@@cjthebeeskneesFrequent Reddit user, I take it? Next time someone asks you to elucidate, explain your reasoning rather than being an asshole for no reason. The results might surprise you.
So Bail Organa is not a good person after all. I mean, outright denied all the bad things the Republic did?! Wow! And I think the Republic should remained at just the Core Worlds and the Colonies while allowing the rest of the galaxy developed their own states. Sure, there will be plenty of wars. But if the status quo is doing more harm than good, a change or a revolution is needed. That is my point here. The Republic is too big! Just like when the Roman Empire ruled over the entire Mediterranean Sea just from Rome is not possible in the long run! And in the end, it did collapse. But not totally! After all, the Eastern Roman Empire based on Constantinople was still around until 1453. But the point is that after the fall of Western Roman Empire and the creation of the theme system a few centuries later, the Roman Empire became easier to govern until the Angelos dynasty came along and ruin everything. So as long as the Republic is limited to just the Core Worlds and the Colonies, adopting the system similar to the theme system and making sure that the people like the ones from the Angelos dynasty never came to be, the Republic will be just fine with the territories it possessed. As for the rest of the galaxy, I can see that it will led to the formation of a number of states similar to how the Germanic tribes formed their own kingdoms from the remnants of the Western Roman Empire. And yes, I can see the Hutts and the Zygerrians being among the ones who formed their own states and even becoming each other's allies. As for the Mandalorians, they most likely will resorted to forming their own nomadic empire in the Outer Rim that briefly became a superpower before being splintered into pieces by the successors of the Mandalore who created this empire just like the Mongol and the Timurid Empires in our world. For the peaceful species such as the Nautolans and the Ithorians, they will have no choice but to form alliances with the Wookies of Kashyyyk and the peoples of Naboo while also keeping the Umbarans happy in order to form something like the Mid Rim Allied Forces to frighten the other polities. Speaking of alliance, I can see the Mon Calamari and the Quarrens entered into an alliance with the Geonosians by sending diplomats to pay homage to the ruling hive on Geonosis in order to gain access to their war machines and Battle Droids. Eventually, the galactic political landscape will be stabilized after centuries of warfare and they will tried their best to preserve the balance of power in the galaxy while also coexisting with one another.
This presentation took a rather biased and simplistic position on Organa and Mothma. The fact that they believed in the need for the Republic's existence was in no way the same as them denying the flaws that existed within the Republic. Their view seemed to be that the Republic was the best option in a bag full of significantly worse options, despite its flaws.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 There is a different between the Republic existed as a rump state located at just the Core Worlds and the Colonies and as a state that ruled over the entire galaxy. I do not supported the latter because we saw how awful it is. As for me being biased toward Bail Organa, it is more about I called the people like him and Mon Mothma out for knowing the problems but cannot even figure things out about how to politically reformed the Republic, let alone deal with the corruption. Yes, Palpatine is the problem. But the fact that they don't "fight fire with fire" is also a problem here. And by that, I mean used the same tactics like him. Two can played the game after all.
The Sepratists made one big mistake....The got between Palpatine and Unlimited Power!!!! Also they were co opted by the Sith so they can weed out as much dissenters tor the future Empire and wipe them out.
Had the corporations not been as cruel as they were playing both sides and had there been no "Sith grand plan" with Sidious at the head, Dooku could have naturally led the CIS as is and as a whole, with or without said plan in canon, it would have painted the Separatists in a better light - making them a bit more like the Rebels/New Republic. Overall, the Separatists had the greater cause. Victory to the Separatist Alliance! Freedom to the Rim Worlds!
I have a point, too - here, look at my knife! No seriously, yes they had a point, yes they went about it the wrong way, yes they were too easily controlled (their senate was just as bad as the Republic Senate, their war-leaders were even worse! Ok, they were controlled by Sidious, but they chose to obey Sidious!)
if the cis weren't co-opted by the sith I would have been willing to support them when i see what the republic was by the time of the clone wars. it is probably not surprising that i side with the rebelion and honestly want the republic to have been heavily reformed into being something good instead of destroyed, but then i also would have allowed for the cis state to become a legitimate state.
You know this is interesting cause in a way the rebels were almost if not as bad as the empire, yea the empire committed war crime level events but so did the republic and that’s what the rebels were trying to restore so the question becomes…….are there any good guys?
The entire CIS was a tool for the Sith. Without the Clone Wars ,If Palpatine tried a power grab, he would be facing a rebellion backed by the separatists factions. Not a winnable fight
Yes the Separatists were right. The reality is the Republic was going to collapse into an empire, and that empire was always going to fall. The real problem was the underlying tension between the astropolitical conditions of the Galaxy and the institutional structures and biases of the Republic. The Republic was founded by the core worlds and was always going to be core centric in its policies. That could only work until significant areas outside of the core had been full developed. As the mid and outer rim developed their economic and political interests sought expression, and that expression was stifled by the centric institutions. This was inherently abusive and inevitability provoked conflict and drove institutional collapse. The Sith merely accelerated the process.
The problem with the separatist is that the "real" separatist as you called them had no real power as the corporations had all the real power. So "real" separatist where fighting corruption by being more corrupt real I think they where wrong because wile what the said was right how they acted made it look like it was just a cham.
I feel you give the Separatists to much credit. First of all the Separatist were ALWAYS a Sith instrument. There were conflicts in the Outer Rim, true, but they were mostly bolstered by the Sith and the CIS was formed only when Dooku stepped in, aka a Sith. The CIS in a way was never a real thing, their hatred for the Republic was inflated by the Sith before being turned into their "Terror machine". Why did the New Republic never rectify the history of the CIS?.... what there is to rectify? The crimes committed were 100% real or How do you convince people that their Emperor was an all powerful evil wizard that played the Galaxy for 40 years? People would laugh in the New Republic's face.
The best way would had allowed them to form a separate government in the post war. Also while the Sith did add fuel to the fire of the Outer Rim problems, those problems still existed with or without the Sith. And while the CIS itself was formed by Dooku, its cause wasn't and there is a good chance a secession crisis still would have happened even if the sith weren't involved.
@@kingorange7739 unlikely. Like the examples of those sort of things happening are almost none existent. Also somehow the CIS for REASONS forget that they are rich, cause they are part of the Republic. Separation WOULD require renegotiating all their favourable deals. Finally, the Republic does not allow Slavery, it may be on paper (And often in action) the CIS makes it legal. Personal pet peeve of mine.
@@facundogonza5740 what do you mean they are almost non existent? The Republic degraded for over centuries and did so because the corrupt senators ultimately allowed it too. Also CIS worlds were far from rich as the majority of their worlds were composed of poorer Outer Rim worlds. Economic exploitation by the core was one of the many reasons for secession. “Finally the Republic does not allow slavery.” - Um are going to forget the Clones are literally a slave army bred just for the purpose of fighting and dying with no say in the matter both figuratively and through things like the inhibitor chips quite literally. I won’t condone the CIS use of slavery either but the Republic’s ban of slavery really only existed on paper and not in practical practice.
I often viewed the CIS and Rebellion on the same side and the Republic and Empire on the same side. I don't really believe in war crimes and think the winning side determines those crimes. I wonder what happened to all those neutrals during the war
The separatists were and have always been the good guys in my opinion! The "Republic", The Empire, The New Republic, The Confederacy of Independent Systems, the Jedi Council and The Sith are all the same in my opinion! All vying for power while screwing over the regular people!!
@@stevenschnepp576 that's nice to know. Thank you. Guess my book shelf and long box are actually empty and have no comics nor books in them. I never played the video games nor watched the films after the prequels! But I enjoyed the comics and books I do have.
We keep sympathizing for these separatists but the bottom line is, had they not caused the clone wars the empire would have never formed. No matter what way you look at it, their role was the biggest factor in the rise of the empire. They may have had their reasons, but that doesn't justify the ends here.
They were screwed over regardless, lied to by Dooku who was Sideou's inside man on the CIS council, and Grievous the acting general inside man of the CIS Army, aldo yes you still had sub factions like the Trade Federation, Techno Union and Banking Clans that were in it for themselves. Still, they were lied to and riled up to start the war that lead to the disasters that came after.
@@felixdumbravescu2725 The Separatists ultimately brought it on themselves by listening to Dooku. Anything he did was naturally going to reflect on all the other Separatists since they followed his lead. It would be one thing if they declared independence and allowed their own political figures to represent them, but that's not what they chose to do. They allowed Dooku to speak for them.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 Most of them did not know about the attrocities Dooku committed or that Dooku was effectively conning them. You cannot give them much when they remained mostly ignorant. And by the same logic, the Republic brought everything upon themselves by letting Palpatine speak for them. It cuts both ways.
I still agree with Bail. The Republic has problems, I will never deny that, but outright session isn't the answer for me, like Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, Rex, Echo, and many other good Jedi, Clones, and Senators, I'm still loyal to the Republic, the true Republic, but as Rex, Hunter, and many other Clones taught me in Clone Wars and the Bad Batch loyalty and blind obedience are not the same thing. I'm loyal, but I'm not blind, the Empire and Republic, despite some similarities, are two different things, and while the Republic has many flaws there were still many people in it trying to do good, there was always a chance it could be saved, it was a possible outcome out of several, but sadly the Sith manipulated everything to make sure the outcome would be the worst possible one, the formation of the Empire. The Separatists had some good points, and some of the ones we've seen in the Bad Batch and the Nosaurans from Legends I can honestly say I could probably get along with and just let them be because they're not actively causing too much trouble. But then you have other Separatists that had good reasons to leave like Jaibimm and Umbara, who took things too far and lost any sympathy from me. In the case of Umbara there secession in danger the Wookies, good innocent people who I am very fond of, they had no consideration for how their actions would affect others, and as such I completely support the Republic invasion of Umbara to stop this inconsiderate jerks and clean a path to get support to Kashyyyk and the Wookies. As for Jaibimm the Nationalist were right to want to break free from the Republic, but then they tried to force the rest of their planet to go along with it, they started killing their own people who wanted to remain loyal to the Republic just because they didn't want to join the CIS, for all the Nationalists talk about the Republic being corrupt they themselves are corrupt by not taking into consideration the feelings of all of their people and instead killing those who didn't agree with them. So again, in this case, I support the invasion of Jaibimm because of what those jerks were doing to their own people who didn't agree with them on seceding. I have to say, Geetsly, as much as I love you're content, you've kind of become a lot more cynical about the Republic over the years. You use to be a lot more fair to it. But nowadays you keep saying how it was completely irredeemable and how it became the Empire long before the Clone Wars even started, and how none of the Clones were heroes even though some of them still were, because there were heroes on both sides as the opening crawl to Revenge of the Sith said. You never seem to talk about all the good the Republic has done over the years. It did a decent amount of good over its 25000-year history, despite its problems and corruption. The Republic and Empire are two different things and I'd argue it was still the Republic until about the time of the Outer Rim Sieges. Honestly, with how this channel has changed its views on the Republic, it feels like it's turning into an Empire itself, disregarding all the good and just focusing on the bad and trying to propagate that the Republic is completely evil when it isn't. Now some might go with a secession plan by unsubscribing from the channel, but like I said earlier I'm loyal. I'm loyal to the Geetsly's channel, but I'm not blindly obedient, I'll keep speaking out about my disagreements and I won't upvote this video, or save it to my favorites, or share the link to it on my discord like I do for most of your other videos(because they are still awesome), but I still watch and stay subscribed. Like Padme was to the Republic, I'll stay loyal but still speak out and see if I can change things in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm going to go down into the comments and upvote and reply to Tristankawatsuma comment because they made some good points about the good of the Republic that you ignored and I want to help support and spread the good instead of just focusing on the negatives of the Republic.
Secession might not have been the right solution, but there were no simple reforms that could fix the Republic either. It needed to be radically rebuilt from the ground up, and unfortunately the only person willing to do that saw the proper way to "rebuild" being to turn it into a totalitarian dictatorship led by a cult.
The point he is trying to make is that while the Republic did some good, it is far more common for people to overlook its unjustices. Trying to say Umbara should be invaded because it may had endangered Kashyyyk is the same kind of danger mindset that gave the Empire power. More importantly, while Jabiim did take an extreme route, that was because the outcome of whether or not that world seceded was a black and white issue and the nationalists effectively saw that many loyalists would rather side with a mega government over their own people. Also I will ask this because it does come down to this question, did most CIS worlds have a right to leave? Because you can talk all you want about how the Republic is not beyond saving and I don't even disagree, but does that give them the right to force worlds to stay that think differently? Should systems only remain loyal at blaster point?
@@kingorange7739 Hey, King Orange, good to see you again, it's been a while since we had a conversation. You always push me to be better when it comes to discuissing Star Wars, with our talks, which I enjoy. "did most CIS worlds have a right to leave? Because you can talk all you want about how the Republic is not beyond saving and I don't even disagree, but does that give them the right to force worlds to stay that think differently? Should systems only remain loyal at blaster point?" -- I think it all comes down to the world in question and whether or not their secession will cause more planets than just theirs to suffer. For example, I used the Nosaurains in my comment their secssion didn't cause any real problem and they had to do it to survive, so there alright to succeed and the Republic has no right to hurt them and force them to stay in the Republic, there are no doutably many worlds in the CIS that weren't causing too much if any trouble who had legitmate reasons to suceed and in my book I say leave them alone. But there are also worlds whose sucession can be problematic on a larger scale, like with Umbara with how there sucession puts Kashyyyk and other planets in danger, so we now have to ask ourseleves, is it right to let countless planets suffer just so one planet can be happy? Now of course, out right invading isn't always the right call in these situation, it should be only a last resort. Now if Umabara or any other world that put others in danger with their secession in this hypotetical was willing to talk let Repbulic forces safly pass to get to Kashyyyk or any other world that needed them then I say let them being and don't invade the planet. Of course, we don't know if Umbara was willing to do this or not, I don't think it was ever stated anywhere, so we're just left to assume what happened. Personally, I'm trying to give the Republic the benefit of the doubt on this one and saying that the Umbarains were being unreasonable and wouldn't let them pass. However, it could just as easily go the other way with the Umbarains being okay with this, but the Republic just wanted to invade to stick it to them, becuase they did do that to some worlds, being overtly cruel just to stick it to them, as Geetsly's pointed out in his top 5 war crimes commited by the Republic video. And then even if invasion is the only opition there is a right and wrong way to do it. Like for example the Battle of Cato Neimodia during the Outer Rim Sieges. Now I'm okay with invading Cato Neimodia because of how much there helping the Separatist and thus helping them cause great hamr to others by feuling rhe Separatist war machine, but I am 100% not okay with what they did to the grub hatcheries, burnign them and killing all those infants and unborn Neimodians, no way is that okay in any possible world. That is being overtly cruel and that is wrong on so many levels and again something the Republic has no right to do. Llike Obi-Wan told Alpha during the Battle of Jaiibm, you can't just killing everyone on the planet, you don't kill surendering enemies and you defiantly don't kill civilains, espically kids, you have to be better, and luckily there were many Clones and Jedi that were, but there were also sadly those that were not better like Alpha and some other asswhole Jedi, like the one who destroyed that Separatist base knowing full well that it's destruction would send shratle and kill the innocent civilians in a nearby village. So over all it comes down to many factors on if a CIS world should be allowed to leave, in some cases I say, yes in others I say no. Like the Clone Wars itself the answer to this question is not a simple black and white answer, it's grey and complicated, but I suppose that's a good thing as it gets us all to really think and come up with our own answer and try to be better and improve, like I feel like I always try to do when we have one of our fun, mostly friendly debates, Orange.
@@zexalbrony4799 Likewise my friend. It is always great to have discussions with you. I think a big factor in relation is that for better and for worse, issues related to whether the Republic attacked regardless is left sort of vague. So I will be fair in saying that the benefit of the doubt is present. However the reason why I lean closer to not is factoring how the Republic became rather indiscriminate of seceding worlds within the EU especially by the late stages of the war. By that point even neutral worlds weren't really safe anymore. More importantly, it brings the point that the Republic was more often than not unwilling to offer any compromise to seceding worlds. This isn't talked about much, but there were a fair amount of seceding worlds that were not even seeking to be permanent members of the Confederacy of Independent Systems but merely did so to protect their worlds from potential Republic invasion. I do agree with you that invasions of worlds that were directly fueling the Separatist war machine were fair game within war, but worlds like Umbara and Jabiim would not really fall under that. I also always take admiration for the better Jedi and clone members within it, if only because they tried to be better. It's just a shame how much those values began diminishing as the war progressed.
@@zexalbrony4799 I definitely agree the answer to these questions tend to lean into being gray, however part of why I developed as a major sympathizer for the Separatists stemmed from the fact that I would personally argue the Sith involvement was the only major factor that let their cause downfall within an extreme wartime condition. Had it not been for that or if Dooku never joined Sidious and instead led the CIS proper, the Confederacy could have and in my opinion likely would have stood as a highly free society met with a small government, open trade markets, low taxes, and kicking the corporations out of legislation, The Parliament didn't have any corporate members in it, at least from what I can remember. To me what is even more tragic is how the Separatists were really done dirty in Galactic History both during the age of the Empire but also by the New Republic in spite of the fact that the Separatists became unofficial allies to the Rebellion and if people actually looked at the ideals instead of Grievous, they would understand that the Separatist cause meant something that would have enabled the needs of the Outer Rim to finally be addressed. Mini Bonteri for Head of State, anyone?
They still think they'll get sympathy from the likes of me and kther? Pshaw, face it, having justifiable woes and them still being living, breathing people doesn't necessarily make them be forgiving for partaking on the wrong side of history. At least their children, grandchildren, and so on will be exempt from the prejudice, assuming they aren't vengeful in the coming of the next generations and its own conflicts.
I think the Separatists did have a point, but where too narrow-minded to fight the true enemies within the Republic (such as Palpatine). It's similar to how the Ukraine wants it's own independence (CIS) from Russia (The Republic), but also switched since Ukraine was mostly innocent, while Russia is just power-hungry and also led by a Sith-like leader.
I agree with Garm Bel Iblis. The Separatists were right in their cause at the wrong time. The Sith Grand Plan was genius and worked perfectly. Shame it was at the expense of the Outer Rim.
Here here.
Nowadays, I feel torn between wanting to root for the Jedi and Clones but also knowing that they are fighting for the wrong reasons.
The Jedi were definitely mislead and blindsided. They would have left the Republic, too, if they knew more. The Clone Wars shows the pointlessness of war, but it also showed how grey war can be, particularly in participants of war. Some might be genuine scumbags, some might be victims, some might be simply fighting on the wrong side - often times from manipulation, which both the Republic and the CIS were victims of on the deepest level by Sith influence in the galactic shadows.
That is the power of propaganda. It forces you to think emotionally instead of logically and considering most people are emotional it is no wonder logic often loses
Isn’t it funny that no matter who won it woulda been Paletine winning no matter what
Well they were fighting for the right reasons, it’s just that those reasons were being exploited and manipulated. They were just unaware of what they were truly fighting for.
@@spectralace314the problem was the Republic was too big and too old for it to make the kind of changes it needed. Both the Republic and the Separatists had points but they were both co opted by the Sith
Yes. The seperatists did have a point but they were exploited by corps.
Yea that was always my issue with the CIS. It was headed by a Banking Clan and a Trade Federation. At least they did invite the Techno-Union.
And by the Sith, don't forget this fact.
@@samuelebincoletto637 More them than anyone else, even if it wasn't JUST them.
It's funny how Garm Bel Iblis was the one that hasn't been canonized because there's only a good republic in the canons of some...
Luthen Rael is basically Garm
@@АлексейМомот-щ7о I guess he do appear to be the more practical rebel ready to compromise.
Separatist holdouts: We want to not be part of the Empire or Republic
All other factions: I missed the part where that’s my problem… I’m gonna put some dirt in your eye. Look at little Dooku Jr, gonna cry?
I’ve always had a soft spot for the people of the CIS and the leaders who weren’t aware of the mega corporations running it behind the scenes.
Now and again I imagine Dooku turning to a more Nightisister-ish view of the force and leading the CIS for real while offering an alternative to the Jedi for force sensitives. Instead of slaves to the Republic, these force sensitives take a more hands-on approach to fighting evil and corruption.
Im curious to know what is the view the nightsister had of the force. Could you elaborate please?
There were many separatists that had those legitimate grievances, but that message got so lost in the wake of people like Dooku, grievous, and Gunray that I doubt many in the Republic and later the Rebels even knew about it
After the episode that introduced Mina and Lux Bonteri, I started feeling bad for the Separatists, knowing that they were stuck in the middle of a no-win situation and were nothing but pawns in the Sith's game, dehumanized by the likes of General Grievous and Nute Gunray, made to look like savages and war criminals for wanting to be independent.
The thing to understand about Garm Bel Iblis (he's still canon for me) was that he was always considered to be something of a blinkered old radical in the Republic Senate - with borderline separatist views on Corellia, his home system - and even in the Alliance later on.
He often took positions that made little sense to many at the time (opposing a Republic military even when the Clone Wars was at its height, when Coruscant was besieged), even among his fellow peace party members. Often he was seen as looking out for Corellia's interests first, the Republic's second.
So it was easy for Palps to paint him as a stubborn obstructionist or blinkered contarian with Correlian separatist leanings, who just opposed eveything Palpatine did whatever the situation.
Even when he became a major political figure in the Alliance, much of his positions seem to have been considered fringe. Sadly, he was totally right on this issue of former Seps - but because of his track record and general disposition, his peers didn't take his concerns seriously.
0:20 That reminds me of one of the nu-canon Marvel Star Wars comics, where Luke meets a retired mercenary and asks him whether he fought for the Republic or the Empire (later turns out it was both). The mercenary responds saying he's not sure when the transition *really* happened, that the Republic had already become the Empire well before it *officially* became the Empire.
I also can't find it online, but I remember that one of the Legends-era "Essential Guide" books has quotes from a speech Palpatine made to the Senate where he goes all-in on calling the Rebel Alliance the new Separatists.
I've always wondered what the Star Wars setting would of been like if Palpatine's plans worked too well, causing both the Republic and the CIS to fracture into innumerable independent systems. He only is able to seize Corusant and a number of inner core worlds to establish his empire, the Jedi suffer heavy losses but still are able flee mostly intact, the Kaminoans set about creating their own empire with their own clone army, Pre Vizsla takes Mandalore and Grievous becomes leader of an independent Kalee, as well as countless other possible stories of new rising empires. I personally think Star Wars would be an more interesting and rich setting if that were the case.
It definitely would be a warlord era for all sides.
Certainly a good fit for an RPG setting, which is one of Star Wars's great weaknesses - GMs have to go far from the canon era, one way or another, to escape the feeling that nothing in the game matters because the *real* heroes will still resolve the situation.
That would be so wild.
- With so many smaller interstellar powers, there’d be a multitude of places for Jedi survivors to operate openly beyond Palpatine’s reach. There would even be multiple smaller Jedi orders, likely loosely aligned into a coalition that operates across multiple nations.
- The Empire would be fighting its neighbors in multiple wars of conquest. Mandalore would likely act as a middleman between Dooku’s Confederacy and, say, the loose confederation of the Outer Rim Territories and a possible constitutional monarchy based out of Naboo.
- Hutt Space would regularly poke the bear that is the Outer Rim Territories.
- Don’t forget about the Chiss Ascendancy chilling out in the Unknown Regions.
In Stellaris there is a mod called Star Wars: New Dawn. It, more or less, is what you just described.
Here we go again, folks! Brace yourselves: Sith Wars Chapter III / Republic Dark Age II is coming! XD
See, if Disney and Kethleen Kennedy weren't such ABSOLUTE ASSHOLES, they could have branched Star Wars into a Multiverse of Timelines just like Marvel. We could have had awesome stories like this one without upsetting the original Legends timeline, and everyone would be happy!
But NOOOO! Cause PC Woke and bullshit like that.
The Separatists completely had a point. They were taxed without adequate representation, if any at all, their resources were stolen to enrich the colonialist Core, entire criminal empires (most notably the Hutts) and pirates ran rampant throughout their space, and their desire for self-representation was answered by ruthless aggression, cumulating in the Empire they feared becoming a reality. It was criminal that the Rebels didn't recognize their grievances (pardon the pun), and do something, ANYTHING to address it when they came into power. The regular, everyday people of the Outer Rim were once again screwed over.
their entire government was run by war profiteers, and their corporations had immense power
Given to what we saw on the Bad Batch season 2, Count Dooku really gave his home planet of Soreno a really bad name
Shot through the heart with his sith rage... Dooku you give Soreno a bad name..... Okay maybe I changed a few lyrics
I would have liked to hear Dooku's side to this. Considering he built his reputation on fighting corruption I lean more toward the mouse just not understanding characters
@@TypicalidiotGuya man of culture I see, excellent
@@vikingsword3485a Disney oversight is possible and typical. Even though it is Brad Rau supervising and Dave Filoni developing it, would not be surprised if higher-ups told them to “mAkE dOoKu eViL aNd LeSs CoMpLeX” unfortunately
Serenno, you mean.
9:14 Wat Tambor jump scare
Many people try to demonize certain people as a way to make sure they don't follow the same example as they did before. The CIS while for the most part were right in what they were saying unfortunately had that happen to them. It's a sad thing, but ironically it still happens even in real life.
This is part of why I'm interested in stories hundreds or thousands of years ABY. That time frame might allow the galaxy to finally accept the good parts of what the Separatists were fighting for.
I find it perplexing that the Rebels claim the moral high ground (please no Obi-Wan memes) when it was the very government they wanted to restore that not only allowed Palpatine to rise to power, but even applauded when the latter turned the Republic into the Empire.
The republic was an institution that lasted some 25000 years and had held the galaxy together and pulled it back from more than one abyss (see all the sith wars), that kind of legacy is a powerful thing and while the republic wasnt perfect even before the clone wars *cough* Pius Dea *cough* the empire only came about and lasted for less than a thousandth the time.
For comparison, the allies didnt destroy or erase Germany or Japan for all of their war crimes during ww2 instead they reformed them and got them to clean up their act. Not a perfect solution perhaps but a sight better than many an alternative.
Someone missed the entirety of the Empire, I see.
@@stevenschnepp576 I understand what you said, but look at this way. The Rebel Alliance had the goal to restore the Republic. The same Republic that fell into corruption and stagnation and was toppled from the inside by a guy that became their head of state through legal means (the methods he used were evil, but he was legally elected).
I do think the Separatists had genuine reasons to fight the Republic, but were ultimately meddled down by the corporations that fueled them/Palpatine's influence
The Confederacy had a very noble goal in allowing the systems to govern themselves, and I believe that the Jedi should have never intervene in the Clone Wars as this was clearly the line that the Jedi should have never crossed as the conflict wasn’t about the Sith Resurgence, but the infighting against a corrupt government that was clearly taking advantage of the Outer Rim. The Rebel Alliance should have allowed for the Separatists, because it will allowed a coalition of ideals to create a new government that will help all people of the Galaxy, but clearly the opinions of a tyrannic government govern by a egomaniacal dictator who already spun lies about the Rebels from their ruthless tactics and undermining the Empire the citizens daily lives, so really why not help rehabilitate the image of the Confederacy like how they rehabilitate the image of the Jedi.
The Sith still ultimately had control over the Separatists, so who even knows how long they'd have enjoyed their freedom if they ever got it?
It is much easier to trick someone than convince them they have been tricked is the short answer. Considering the CIS lost the war they had no leadership and it is much easier to convince one leader with thousands of men under his command than each person one by one
Like the old saying goes: History is written by the victors.
Now with the Republic destroyed for a second time, here's hoping the Separatist Planets can build something better for themselves.
Outer rim Union.
When did the Republic get destroyed for a second time? Or are you also counting the Old Republic? (But then it would be more than twice.)
@@Tim_Sviridov, he's talking about the Sequels... yeah, I know.
@@occam7382 the only good part about the sequels.
@@劉致雍-o1x, what? That the Republic got destroyed after less than a minute of screentime? How is that good?
The Senate told of an even bigger tragedy. That being of Darth Plagueis the Wise.
At least they got their revenge against the empire in the end thanks to the Rebellion.
The Separatists did have a point but it was one that the likes of Bail Organa, Mon Mothma and other senior Rebel leaders - most of whom were Core Worlders and from the ruling classes of said planets which benefited from the exploitation of the Outer Rim - could never accept or believe.
Poor seppies, they're really not noticed by Lucasfilm nowadays. I know that Count Dooku has been getting some love in the spotlight (and I am ECSTATIC about this!), but the rest of the separatists? Not even a comic book about them. As separatist fan, this saddens me, especially with General Grievous, he is such an awesome character. Honestly I would love a series about how the separatist holdouts fought the empire. I think it would be interesting...am I the only one?
Yeah I’m with you! But no, all they want to do is stuff with the rebels, clones or the jedi. YES that stuff is great but BUT we’ve gotten so much of that already
@@jaxsonlambert9750 I know right? Oh, don't forget Mandalorians, Disney is obsessed with them right now. Honestly, the only bad guys Lucasfilm seems to care about is Darth Vader and Maul. Again, nothing wrong with these characters, but we get a lot of content about them and not much else. Glad to know that I am not the only star wars fan who feels this way
I think the rebel alliance should have worked with the separatists because although the Empire could have used that as propaganda to villainize the rebellion they could have simply kept their alliance secret, and it would have provided more man power, weapons, freedom of movement and potential bases of operation in the outer rim, and when the galactic civil war ended and the new republic was formed it would have been easier to come to an accord with the separatists since they would have worked together against a common enemy.
Well they couldn't keep it secret for long but the main reason is that the empire would and did call the rebels seperatists anyways. You might as well reclaim the narative and make it a point that the whole war was indeed orchestrated by palpatine.
There is no Empire if the Separatists get, well separate. The entire Clone War was designed to ultimately consolidate all the political and financial power under the guise of the Emperor. So allowing the Separatists to leave wouldn't have provided Palps with what he needed.
@@aaronaukema1284 so does that mean you agree with me?
@@chrismenary3340 your comment assumes a rebel alliance, and such a thing would not have existed had the Separatists been allowed to separate. However, there is a good chance that even staunch Republic supporters like Mon Mothma would have seen how the Separatists were probably correct.
@@aaronaukema1284 so do you agree with me or don’t you?
I dont think George Lucas intended it, but this fascinating piece of Star Wars Lore is the best Politocal Drama story I can think of.
I definitely was intended Star Wars has always been a very political series
@notthefbi7015 Yep, the Empire was based off the US military, and the Rebellion was based off the Viet Cong.
@@dylaneagen880 Huh, Ive only heard that the Empire was being largely inspired from the German Third Reich ("Stormtrooper" being a probable ref to "Sturmabteilung"). While i can definitely see the similarities between the Rebellion and the Viet Cong, the resemblance between the Empire and the US Military is sadly lost on me. As such, I would be greatly interested to hear some examples of the connection between the Empire and the US Military.
@@henrydawson8767 From what I understand, the only reference to the Empire being the US and the Rebellion being the Viet Cong was in regards to Episode VI specifically
@@Darth_Enigma Huh, fascinating. Thanks for the reply, love after all these years, I can still find new interpretation and perspective on Star Wars.
So, because no one could ever admit that the Separatists were right, the New Republic carried with it most of the flaws of the Old Republic ... and that paved the way for the First Order's rise to power? Well, that's as good an explanation as any for how we got from the end of "Return of the Jedi" to "The Force Awakens."
If only this explanation was in the actual movies. But no, that would have been to much like the prequels. 🙄
@@highlyopinionated5611 As opposed to the actual sequel trilogy that started far too similar to the original trilogy and then fucking it all up spectacularly?
“History is written by victors” applies here in perhaps the saddest way. The Separatists were probably the most exploited yet hated political ideology in the Star Wars Galaxy. Definitely a tragic story, regardless of their rightness or wrongness.
The separatist just can't catch a break.
For the separatist alliance
Organa and Mothma WERE the Empire. Only a fool would ally with Palpatine's obvious cat's paws.
It’s just like Darth Sidious said to Anakin. “Don’t believe the dogmatic view of the Jedi.” Yes, they were great Jedis, but their allegiance was to the Senate and The Republic. Not to the Will of The Force. In tales of the Jedi, we see that time and time again. I see why Count to Dooku left the Jedi order. The Republic and Senate was under the control of a Sith Lord and all the corporations. It’s was not represented by the people anymore, except for the delegation of the 1000. But they were also complicit in some of the actions of the Senate as well so their hands are a little dirty in this matter as well. Wow, how does life imitates art in this on what’s happening in our world today
Nothings more tragic then Darth Plageius the wise
Hans Hermann Hoppe and the ordinary separatists would probably see a lot in common in regards to the Republic.
It is difficult to convey that the seeds are sown for Clone Wars 2.
I agree with mon mothma's point, the rebels couldnt risk being pegged for neoseps
4:33 I've never seen that design, that's a cool design. Is that EU? Was that a subdivision of the Alliance, or New Republic? It looks cool, like something I wouldn't expect to see the Alliance with, but could.
Do I side with the Separatists? Case by Case basis. There were Separatists who actually had similar values to the Republic, and they felt if the Republic learned it's lesson they would be loyalists again.
Just like when a lot of Disillusioned Imperials woke up and smelled the coffee.
Seps were a flawed proto Rebel Alliance, used as disposable ctrl opposition, scape goats, and boogie men.
The Republic was already a proto empire, it just didn't realize it yet because it had a layer of plausible deniability.
I think Separatists are going to be like those Conspiracy Theorists that wound up being right about a lot of things, but because they said the wrong thing at the wrong time, got framed, or a bunch of negative extremist stereotypes crashed their party and sunk their image (guilt by association), possibly as a government psyop, they would be ignored.
Ezra Bridger knew how to take the reasonable survivors of the clone wars, both republic and seps, and convert them to the Rebel Alliance.
I wonder what the galaxy would have been like under a separatist government
Megacorp-run dystopia, as opposed to the Imperial dystopia or the dystopia of a failing democratic state.
@stevenschnepp576 Not really, unless Palpatine had deemed it so. Without Palpatine the vast vast majority of the CIS would be as they were publicly, with absolutely no Separatist Council hiding in the shadows.
@@SockieTheSockPuppet The mega-corps were the ones making all of those droids and ships though. Trusting them not to use them to maintain their dominance would be unwise.
@@RorikHhowever, without the Sith intervention, the mega-corporations would have mostly stayed neutral or aligned with the Republic, because the advantages of joining a more democratic government would be marginal.
@@SockieTheSockPuppet So... pretty much what I said, then.
I feel like I've heard this story before.
Suggestion for new video model: Character VS Character
Ideas: Mace Windu VS Anakin Knightfall / Count Dooku VS Darth Maul / Yoda vs Darth Sidious ETC
Not only do I agree with Garm, but I 100% sympathize with the Separatists. Not the mega corporations, mind you, but the Separatists who genuinely wanted independence from the Core Worlds. I don’t expect Mon Mothma or Bail Organa to be able to understand or sympathize with the average Separatist. After all, the Republic they want to restore was of the Core Worlds, by the Core Worlds, and for the Core Worlds. At no point did the Republic ever try to hide that member worlds that were not Core Worlds mattered less, and the Outer Rim didn’t matter at all regardless of membership status. Organa and Mothma were from high class places of privilege who had no idea what it was like to be raised on a poor world that’s constantly exploited by a few worlds on the other side of the galaxy with the blessing of the galactic government.
That’s somewhere I think Star Wars really puts the real world into perspective. There are many people in the world who are raised in poor countries that are exploited by far off governments, often with the UN either approving or turning a blind eye. That’s even true for certain US states. You can’t expect a rich person from New York City or London to understand the predicament of a poor person in Guatemala.
This is why I'm currently working on a star wars alternate universe with the Separatists being far different, mainly in that it is an actual grassroots revolution.
I love stuff that views republic via anti colonial lense
Sounds like the Separatists got the rawest deal in history
Okay, I’m sorry but I have to disagree. At least in Canon, the Republic isn’t exactly portrayed to be beyond all help. The whole point of the Clone Wars was to transform the Republic into the Empire. That is consistently shown to be the point of the conflict. And I’m not sure about saying the Republic was always on the side of corporations.
Yes, it was the Senate which gave the corporations so much power in both Canon and Legends that they had their own political representation and their own militaries. They let the corporations act as representatives of the Republic in the Mid and Outer Rim. But I wonder if this relationship was starting to die out by the Prequels. The Invasion of Naboo begins because the free trade zones were taxed to divert funds and profits from the Trade Federation to boost both the Republic and the Outer Rim. Doesn’t that suggest even the Senate began to realize how out of control they had let the corporations become? Now to be fair, Nute Gunray was able to escape prosecution in several trials and the corporations survived to the Clone Wars. And yes, the Republic basically allowed the corporations to claim neutrality despite openly funding and supporting the CIS military. There was still corruption and gridlock happening in the Senate.
It is true the CIS made several points. Corruption, gridlock, and planets being taxed only to get nothing in return like security from the Jedi Order and Judicial Forces because of the Senate. Still, I wouldn’t label the pre-Clone Wars Galactic Republic as imperialist, at least in Canon. The Canon Republic Pre-Clone Wars seemed to have major hands-off approach. It almost comes off as lazy. This seems to be a mixture of apathy and many senators being paid to look the other way. However the imperial remarks seem more like something that would pop up during the Clone Wars when the actual legislation that creates the Empire got passed. The Separatists do make the argument that they are fighting the growing tyranny of the Galactic Republic and also say they blame the Republic for not accepting the peace deal they offered, but the blame mostly falls on their own military.
Canon shows that even during the Clone Wars, the Galactic Republic could be reasonable. They call off their peacekeeping forces that would have been sent to Mandalore and they do actually consider the peace deal before the power grid attack on Coruscant. Even in the last year of the war, they actually agree to let Rush Clovis become the new head of the Intergalactic Banking Clan despite being both a former Separatist and also being supported by the Separatists to become the new leader and root out corruption. Now, I’m not saying the Separatist Parliament is evil. Canon has proven that to be simply false. It was the Parliament that offered the peace deal in the first place and just like the Republic they give Clovis to okay to take over the Banking Clan. The issue however is what the hell were they doing with how the Separatist Military was run by the Separatist Council. The Republic didn’t become the Empire just because it’s citizens and senators wanted to conquer the galaxy. They transformed the Republic into the Empire because of the threats to their peace, security, and freedoms. The Republic Senate deserves criticism for letting things get bad enough that Palpatine became chancellor. After that, his manipulations ensured any reasonable methods the Senate and Republic could go for would be unpopular. But what was the deal with the Separatist Parliament. It was the Separatist military that basically pushed the Republic to become a tyrannical empire. How is it Dooku can order a massacre and then get a humanitarian award soon afterwards?
The Separatists are nowhere close as evil as the Galactic Empire, but to say the Republic is ignores the whole point of the Clone Wars. And while the Republic willingly became the Empire, you still have to ask why the Separatist Parliament were unable to put a leash on Dooku and the Separatist Council.
You know, let’s bring up the lead-up to the Clone Wars anyways. The Military Creation Act seems to have had the Republic divided. For all we know, it could have gone either ways and even if it was passed, odds are that opposing senators would quickly propose an opposition bill like we see Padme and her allies do after a bill is passed to create more clones. Palpatine has Dooku form a military with corporations and ensures Jedi and a Senator are captured and sentenced to be executed so the democratic process can be thrown out the window. It’s thanks to Geonosis that the Emergency Powers Act is granted to Palpatine and thus allows the creation of the Grand Army of the Republic. What if Palpatine instead let the democratic process play out? Now, odds are the Senate would pass the Military Creation Act out of fear of the new droid army, but that doesn’t mean war would begin. First, it would take time to build up an army and I’m not sure if the Republic would take the clones if there wasn’t a war just yet. They aren’t desperate. Palpatine and Dooku would have to engineer an incident to occur and I think the war would quickly become unpopular to both sides. Separatists would feel guilty for sending droid armies against organic soldiers while the Republic gets tired of sending young blood to their deaths.
The basic point is that without the manipulations of the Sith, things wouldn’t be as bad as they are. They certainly can still be far better, but just as the “True” Separatists aren’t monsters, it’s the same thing for the Republic. It’s quite corrupt, but not evil. That’s thanks to Palpatine and the Separatist Military striking fear in the heart of the Republic.
All very good points. As much as I love Geetsly's content, I hate how in recent years they seem to be ignoring the good the Republic did. Sure, the Republic has many flaws, there is no denying that, but it has just as much good too. There were many good people in the Republic, even during the Clone Wars and even still after it became the Empire as Bad Batch has shown, be they good Jedi like Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Plo Koon, maybe Anakin he's a little debatable, good Clones like Rex, Echo, Fives, Cody, and so on, and even some good Senators like Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, and Chuchi. These individuals always tried to do the right and good thing, they saved the Togura people from the Zygerrian slavers, Padme and her allies always tried to negotiate for peace to end the war, Cody still tried to save civilians and tried to resolve the Separatist Holdout he and Crosshair attacked in the Bad Batch with peaceful negotiations just like Oobi-Wan taught him, and Chuchi and some other Senators still keeps fighting for the rights of Clones and demilitarization and just leaving worlds alone now that the Clone Wars are over.
The Republic and Empire are two very different things, despite the similarities they share, that's why many still fought for and tried to restore it after the Empire rose to power, because they believed in the true Republic, not what it had become near the end of the Clone Wars. The Republic wasn't the Empire at the start, and it wasn't guaranteed to become the Empire even when the Clone Wars first started. Like you said, it was still the Republic during the start of the war. You were right, Palpatine's plan with the Clone Wars was to widdle away all the good that was left in the Republic at this time, leaving only the bad and guaranteeing the only outcome for it would be it becoming the Empire. The manipulations of the Sith guaranteed the worst possible outcome, without them, there might have been a decent chance for a better outcome and solution for both the Republic and the CIS. But sadly, thanks to the manipulations of the Sith all the good was eventually exterminated and I'd say around the time of the Outer Rim Sieges it was an Empire, with only a few specs of good from the old Republic left in it, which were eventually wiped away with the execution of Order 66, the decommissioning of the Clones, and the arresting/executing of the Delegation of the 2000, those things were the final nails in the coffin.
Also, nice point bringing up Geonosis. I remember a video by The Lore Master, where he pointed out that the Battle of Geonosis was staged to make both sides think the other was the evil aggressor. For the Republic, them learning about the Droid Army, the corrupt cooperations involvement, and Dooku being a Sith, were all red flags about how dangerous the CIS was, as even those Jedi and Senators like Padme who were opposed to the war were now onboard as they saw it as a matter of self-defense. Whereas the Separatists, thanks to Dooku's propaganda, thought the two Jedi and Padme were on an espionage mission for the Republic to sabotage the CIS, thus they were in their legal rights to execute those that trespassed on CIS space to do harm and when the Jedi and Clones attacked to rescue them they saw it as violating the CS's laws and rights with an aggressive attack, thus justifying the deployment of the Droid Army in an act of self-defense. The Sith were really good at getting the good people on both sides to fight each other. It's lie Ezra told Rex and Kalanni, "Clones and Droids(and by extension all the other good people on both sides like the Jedi and Senators from both groups) you destroyed each other, and when you were all weakened the Empire came in and took over." Palpatine and his allies were always the true enemies, but all the good people on both sides were tricked into fighting and weakening each other instead, thus Palpatine and the others could swoop in and wipe them out and win it all.
@@zexalbrony4799 Nice to see someone agree with me, but I do feel I should be a little more fair to the Separatists. Dooku took full control of the Shadowfeed Network and of course they aren’t going to believe the Holonet since it was nationalized by the Republic. And as great as it would feel to show Separatists all the horrible things they did and how it made the Republic become the threat they feared, it would feel like telling a child that their hero is a villain. I mean, look at the former Separatists in the Bad Batch and the Mandalorian, or Mina Bonteri herself. They have so much faith in Dooku and see him as a hero. Dooku even gets a humanitarian award in the last year of the war. Nossor Ri and the Quarren really thought the Separatists would help them out. How did Lux react upon learning the hero of the Confederacy murdered his mother to destroy all hopes of peace? I mean, imagine if the entire Rebel Alliance turned out like Saw Gerrera. Wouldn’t that hurt to see people with legitimate issues become villains that are as bad or in a few cases even worse than their enemy? We’ve already seen several Republic characters reflect on the past and how they failed to save the Republic, but we haven’t really seen that with the Separatists yet and I’m torn if I want to. Again, it would be satisfying given all the horrible things the CIS did, but who wants to tell a freedom fighter that they actually made things worse?
@@tristankawatsuma8962 Yeah, you are right about the Separatists, many of them were good and decent people, like Mina and Lux, the ones from The Bad Batch, and the Nosaurians and they deserve a fair shake after everything.
Although I disagree with the one from Mandalorian season 3, that dude was kind of nuts, I mean his planet was thriving, his people were happy, the Droids were even happy, and the New Republic was pretty much leaving the planet alone, the wound caused by the Clone Wars and Galatic Civil War was closed and healing, but because a former Imperial, who honestly looked like he was trying to reform and be a a better person, got to join and be apart of the planet he just couldn't let the wound heal because he couldn't let it go. He was clearly the one in the wrong with his actions against his planet, he was kind of like Saw Gerra he had taken things way to far.
The problem with the separatists is that they REALLY had a good point, but it pretty much got undermined the moment they allowed themselves to be ruled by a bunch of corporations, many of which were atleast partly responsible for the Republics corruption. Not to mention they were also oppenly allied with a bunch of Goverments that were openly (and proudly) pro-slavery like the Zygerirans.
The CIS had a point, but because the Clone Wars was a sham to get the galaxy “ready” for a pro-Empire mindset, what the CIS wanted no longer mattered.
I swear Lucas made SW commentary on the CIS and Republic to mirror the US and Africa, it’s eerily accurate.
Oh really, how so exactly?
@@USAKing1776NASCAR Name checks out, Dale Earnhardt yee yee.
@@cjthebeeskneesFrequent Reddit user, I take it?
Next time someone asks you to elucidate, explain your reasoning rather than being an asshole for no reason. The results might surprise you.
How would Star Wars played out if Luke Skywalker grew up pro Separatist Jedi against his pro Republic sister.
Great episode.
It is a real shame.
So Bail Organa is not a good person after all. I mean, outright denied all the bad things the Republic did?! Wow!
And I think the Republic should remained at just the Core Worlds and the Colonies while allowing the rest of the galaxy developed their own states. Sure, there will be plenty of wars. But if the status quo is doing more harm than good, a change or a revolution is needed. That is my point here. The Republic is too big! Just like when the Roman Empire ruled over the entire Mediterranean Sea just from Rome is not possible in the long run! And in the end, it did collapse. But not totally! After all, the Eastern Roman Empire based on Constantinople was still around until 1453. But the point is that after the fall of Western Roman Empire and the creation of the theme system a few centuries later, the Roman Empire became easier to govern until the Angelos dynasty came along and ruin everything. So as long as the Republic is limited to just the Core Worlds and the Colonies, adopting the system similar to the theme system and making sure that the people like the ones from the Angelos dynasty never came to be, the Republic will be just fine with the territories it possessed.
As for the rest of the galaxy, I can see that it will led to the formation of a number of states similar to how the Germanic tribes formed their own kingdoms from the remnants of the Western Roman Empire. And yes, I can see the Hutts and the Zygerrians being among the ones who formed their own states and even becoming each other's allies. As for the Mandalorians, they most likely will resorted to forming their own nomadic empire in the Outer Rim that briefly became a superpower before being splintered into pieces by the successors of the Mandalore who created this empire just like the Mongol and the Timurid Empires in our world. For the peaceful species such as the Nautolans and the Ithorians, they will have no choice but to form alliances with the Wookies of Kashyyyk and the peoples of Naboo while also keeping the Umbarans happy in order to form something like the Mid Rim Allied Forces to frighten the other polities. Speaking of alliance, I can see the Mon Calamari and the Quarrens entered into an alliance with the Geonosians by sending diplomats to pay homage to the ruling hive on Geonosis in order to gain access to their war machines and Battle Droids.
Eventually, the galactic political landscape will be stabilized after centuries of warfare and they will tried their best to preserve the balance of power in the galaxy while also coexisting with one another.
This presentation took a rather biased and simplistic position on Organa and Mothma. The fact that they believed in the need for the Republic's existence was in no way the same as them denying the flaws that existed within the Republic. Their view seemed to be that the Republic was the best option in a bag full of significantly worse options, despite its flaws.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 There is a different between the Republic existed as a rump state located at just the Core Worlds and the Colonies and as a state that ruled over the entire galaxy. I do not supported the latter because we saw how awful it is.
As for me being biased toward Bail Organa, it is more about I called the people like him and Mon Mothma out for knowing the problems but cannot even figure things out about how to politically reformed the Republic, let alone deal with the corruption. Yes, Palpatine is the problem. But the fact that they don't "fight fire with fire" is also a problem here. And by that, I mean used the same tactics like him. Two can played the game after all.
The Sepratists made one big mistake....The got between Palpatine and Unlimited Power!!!! Also they were co opted by the Sith so they can weed out as much dissenters tor the future Empire and wipe them out.
Had the corporations not been as cruel as they were playing both sides and had there been no "Sith grand plan" with Sidious at the head, Dooku could have naturally led the CIS as is and as a whole, with or without said plan in canon, it would have painted the Separatists in a better light - making them a bit more like the Rebels/New Republic.
Overall, the Separatists had the greater cause.
Victory to the Separatist Alliance! Freedom to the Rim Worlds!
What did Luke Skywalker think of the separatists?
CIS: want freedom.
Also the CIS: help create and engage in slavery trade.
star wars is so much like the world we live in republic and separatists
This is Canon for me!
FOR THE CONFEDERACY!!!!
I have a point, too - here, look at my knife!
No seriously, yes they had a point, yes they went about it the wrong way, yes they were too easily controlled (their senate was just as bad as the Republic Senate, their war-leaders were even worse! Ok, they were controlled by Sidious, but they chose to obey Sidious!)
Classic controlled oppo
BRICS is already in star wars?
Was that a deliberate reference?
im bricked up over here
if the cis weren't co-opted by the sith I would have been willing to support them when i see what the republic was by the time of the clone wars. it is probably not surprising that i side with the rebelion and honestly want the republic to have been heavily reformed into being something good instead of destroyed, but then i also would have allowed for the cis state to become a legitimate state.
You know this is interesting cause in a way the rebels were almost if not as bad as the empire, yea the empire committed war crime level events but so did the republic and that’s what the rebels were trying to restore so the question becomes…….are there any good guys?
Wooooooaaaaaa who dis!?!?!?
The entire CIS was a tool for the Sith. Without the Clone Wars ,If Palpatine tried a power grab, he would be facing a rebellion backed by the separatists factions. Not a winnable fight
For the Confederacy of Independent Systems!
Yes the Separatists were right. The reality is the Republic was going to collapse into an empire, and that empire was always going to fall. The real problem was the underlying tension between the astropolitical conditions of the Galaxy and the institutional structures and biases of the Republic. The Republic was founded by the core worlds and was always going to be core centric in its policies. That could only work until significant areas outside of the core had been full developed. As the mid and outer rim developed their economic and political interests sought expression, and that expression was stifled by the centric institutions. This was inherently abusive and inevitability provoked conflict and drove institutional collapse. The Sith merely accelerated the process.
The problem with the separatist is that the "real" separatist as you called them had no real power as the corporations had all the real power. So "real" separatist where fighting corruption by being more corrupt real I think they where wrong because wile what the said was right how they acted made it look like it was just a cham.
So in the end Iblis was based
I will always be pro-Republic, but reforms were definitely needed.
My comment was featured as comment of the week
I feel you give the Separatists to much credit.
First of all the Separatist were ALWAYS a Sith instrument. There were conflicts in the Outer Rim, true, but they were mostly bolstered by the Sith and the CIS was formed only when Dooku stepped in, aka a Sith.
The CIS in a way was never a real thing, their hatred for the Republic was inflated by the Sith before being turned into their "Terror machine".
Why did the New Republic never rectify the history of the CIS?.... what there is to rectify? The crimes committed were 100% real
or
How do you convince people that their Emperor was an all powerful evil wizard that played the Galaxy for 40 years? People would laugh in the New Republic's face.
The best way would had allowed them to form a separate government in the post war. Also while the Sith did add fuel to the fire of the Outer Rim problems, those problems still existed with or without the Sith. And while the CIS itself was formed by Dooku, its cause wasn't and there is a good chance a secession crisis still would have happened even if the sith weren't involved.
@@kingorange7739 unlikely.
Like the examples of those sort of things happening are almost none existent.
Also somehow the CIS for REASONS forget that they are rich, cause they are part of the Republic. Separation WOULD require renegotiating all their favourable deals.
Finally, the Republic does not allow Slavery, it may be on paper (And often in action) the CIS makes it legal. Personal pet peeve of mine.
@@facundogonza5740 what do you mean they are almost non existent? The Republic degraded for over centuries and did so because the corrupt senators ultimately allowed it too. Also CIS worlds were far from rich as the majority of their worlds were composed of poorer Outer Rim worlds. Economic exploitation by the core was one of the many reasons for secession.
“Finally the Republic does not allow slavery.” - Um are going to forget the Clones are literally a slave army bred just for the purpose of fighting and dying with no say in the matter both figuratively and through things like the inhibitor chips quite literally. I won’t condone the CIS use of slavery either but the Republic’s ban of slavery really only existed on paper and not in practical practice.
I often viewed the CIS and Rebellion on the same side and the Republic and Empire on the same side. I don't really believe in war crimes and think the winning side determines those crimes. I wonder what happened to all those neutrals during the war
The separatists were and have always been the good guys in my opinion! The "Republic", The Empire, The New Republic, The Confederacy of Independent Systems, the Jedi Council and The Sith are all the same in my opinion! All vying for power while screwing over the regular people!!
You've never watched or read anything related to Star Wars. I can tell.
@@stevenschnepp576 that's nice to know. Thank you. Guess my book shelf and long box are actually empty and have no comics nor books in them. I never played the video games nor watched the films after the prequels! But I enjoyed the comics and books I do have.
We keep sympathizing for these separatists but the bottom line is, had they not caused the clone wars the empire would have never formed. No matter what way you look at it, their role was the biggest factor in the rise of the empire. They may have had their reasons, but that doesn't justify the ends here.
They were screwed over regardless, lied to by Dooku who was Sideou's inside man on the CIS council, and Grievous the acting general inside man of the CIS Army, aldo yes you still had sub factions like the Trade Federation, Techno Union and Banking Clans that were in it for themselves. Still, they were lied to and riled up to start the war that lead to the disasters that came after.
@@felixdumbravescu2725 The Separatists ultimately brought it on themselves by listening to Dooku. Anything he did was naturally going to reflect on all the other Separatists since they followed his lead. It would be one thing if they declared independence and allowed their own political figures to represent them, but that's not what they chose to do. They allowed Dooku to speak for them.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 Most of them did not know about the attrocities Dooku committed or that Dooku was effectively conning them. You cannot give them much when they remained mostly ignorant. And by the same logic, the Republic brought everything upon themselves by letting Palpatine speak for them. It cuts both ways.
I will always be against the Separatists' war crimes, but I would support the Confederacy of Independent Systems rather than the Republic any day
Without question the separatists were the good guys
Kinda. Their cause was just but their methods were far from humane
Historical revisionism is based
I still agree with Bail. The Republic has problems, I will never deny that, but outright session isn't the answer for me, like Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, Rex, Echo, and many other good Jedi, Clones, and Senators, I'm still loyal to the Republic, the true Republic, but as Rex, Hunter, and many other Clones taught me in Clone Wars and the Bad Batch loyalty and blind obedience are not the same thing. I'm loyal, but I'm not blind, the Empire and Republic, despite some similarities, are two different things, and while the Republic has many flaws there were still many people in it trying to do good, there was always a chance it could be saved, it was a possible outcome out of several, but sadly the Sith manipulated everything to make sure the outcome would be the worst possible one, the formation of the Empire. The Separatists had some good points, and some of the ones we've seen in the Bad Batch and the Nosaurans from Legends I can honestly say I could probably get along with and just let them be because they're not actively causing too much trouble. But then you have other Separatists that had good reasons to leave like Jaibimm and Umbara, who took things too far and lost any sympathy from me. In the case of Umbara there secession in danger the Wookies, good innocent people who I am very fond of, they had no consideration for how their actions would affect others, and as such I completely support the Republic invasion of Umbara to stop this inconsiderate jerks and clean a path to get support to Kashyyyk and the Wookies. As for Jaibimm the Nationalist were right to want to break free from the Republic, but then they tried to force the rest of their planet to go along with it, they started killing their own people who wanted to remain loyal to the Republic just because they didn't want to join the CIS, for all the Nationalists talk about the Republic being corrupt they themselves are corrupt by not taking into consideration the feelings of all of their people and instead killing those who didn't agree with them. So again, in this case, I support the invasion of Jaibimm because of what those jerks were doing to their own people who didn't agree with them on seceding.
I have to say, Geetsly, as much as I love you're content, you've kind of become a lot more cynical about the Republic over the years. You use to be a lot more fair to it. But nowadays you keep saying how it was completely irredeemable and how it became the Empire long before the Clone Wars even started, and how none of the Clones were heroes even though some of them still were, because there were heroes on both sides as the opening crawl to Revenge of the Sith said. You never seem to talk about all the good the Republic has done over the years. It did a decent amount of good over its 25000-year history, despite its problems and corruption. The Republic and Empire are two different things and I'd argue it was still the Republic until about the time of the Outer Rim Sieges. Honestly, with how this channel has changed its views on the Republic, it feels like it's turning into an Empire itself, disregarding all the good and just focusing on the bad and trying to propagate that the Republic is completely evil when it isn't. Now some might go with a secession plan by unsubscribing from the channel, but like I said earlier I'm loyal. I'm loyal to the Geetsly's channel, but I'm not blindly obedient, I'll keep speaking out about my disagreements and I won't upvote this video, or save it to my favorites, or share the link to it on my discord like I do for most of your other videos(because they are still awesome), but I still watch and stay subscribed. Like Padme was to the Republic, I'll stay loyal but still speak out and see if I can change things in any meaningful way. In fact, I'm going to go down into the comments and upvote and reply to Tristankawatsuma comment because they made some good points about the good of the Republic that you ignored and I want to help support and spread the good instead of just focusing on the negatives of the Republic.
Secession might not have been the right solution, but there were no simple reforms that could fix the Republic either. It needed to be radically rebuilt from the ground up, and unfortunately the only person willing to do that saw the proper way to "rebuild" being to turn it into a totalitarian dictatorship led by a cult.
The point he is trying to make is that while the Republic did some good, it is far more common for people to overlook its unjustices. Trying to say Umbara should be invaded because it may had endangered Kashyyyk is the same kind of danger mindset that gave the Empire power. More importantly, while Jabiim did take an extreme route, that was because the outcome of whether or not that world seceded was a black and white issue and the nationalists effectively saw that many loyalists would rather side with a mega government over their own people. Also I will ask this because it does come down to this question, did most CIS worlds have a right to leave? Because you can talk all you want about how the Republic is not beyond saving and I don't even disagree, but does that give them the right to force worlds to stay that think differently? Should systems only remain loyal at blaster point?
@@kingorange7739 Hey, King Orange, good to see you again, it's been a while since we had a conversation. You always push me to be better when it comes to discuissing Star Wars, with our talks, which I enjoy.
"did most CIS worlds have a right to leave? Because you can talk all you want about how the Republic is not beyond saving and I don't even disagree, but does that give them the right to force worlds to stay that think differently? Should systems only remain loyal at blaster point?" -- I think it all comes down to the world in question and whether or not their secession will cause more planets than just theirs to suffer. For example, I used the Nosaurains in my comment their secssion didn't cause any real problem and they had to do it to survive, so there alright to succeed and the Republic has no right to hurt them and force them to stay in the Republic, there are no doutably many worlds in the CIS that weren't causing too much if any trouble who had legitmate reasons to suceed and in my book I say leave them alone. But there are also worlds whose sucession can be problematic on a larger scale, like with Umbara with how there sucession puts Kashyyyk and other planets in danger, so we now have to ask ourseleves, is it right to let countless planets suffer just so one planet can be happy? Now of course, out right invading isn't always the right call in these situation, it should be only a last resort. Now if Umabara or any other world that put others in danger with their secession in this hypotetical was willing to talk let Repbulic forces safly pass to get to Kashyyyk or any other world that needed them then I say let them being and don't invade the planet. Of course, we don't know if Umbara was willing to do this or not, I don't think it was ever stated anywhere, so we're just left to assume what happened. Personally, I'm trying to give the Republic the benefit of the doubt on this one and saying that the Umbarains were being unreasonable and wouldn't let them pass. However, it could just as easily go the other way with the Umbarains being okay with this, but the Republic just wanted to invade to stick it to them, becuase they did do that to some worlds, being overtly cruel just to stick it to them, as Geetsly's pointed out in his top 5 war crimes commited by the Republic video. And then even if invasion is the only opition there is a right and wrong way to do it. Like for example the Battle of Cato Neimodia during the Outer Rim Sieges. Now I'm okay with invading Cato Neimodia because of how much there helping the Separatist and thus helping them cause great hamr to others by feuling rhe Separatist war machine, but I am 100% not okay with what they did to the grub hatcheries, burnign them and killing all those infants and unborn Neimodians, no way is that okay in any possible world. That is being overtly cruel and that is wrong on so many levels and again something the Republic has no right to do. Llike Obi-Wan told Alpha during the Battle of Jaiibm, you can't just killing everyone on the planet, you don't kill surendering enemies and you defiantly don't kill civilains, espically kids, you have to be better, and luckily there were many Clones and Jedi that were, but there were also sadly those that were not better like Alpha and some other asswhole Jedi, like the one who destroyed that Separatist base knowing full well that it's destruction would send shratle and kill the innocent civilians in a nearby village. So over all it comes down to many factors on if a CIS world should be allowed to leave, in some cases I say, yes in others I say no. Like the Clone Wars itself the answer to this question is not a simple black and white answer, it's grey and complicated, but I suppose that's a good thing as it gets us all to really think and come up with our own answer and try to be better and improve, like I feel like I always try to do when we have one of our fun, mostly friendly debates, Orange.
@@zexalbrony4799 Likewise my friend. It is always great to have discussions with you. I think a big factor in relation is that for better and for worse, issues related to whether the Republic attacked regardless is left sort of vague. So I will be fair in saying that the benefit of the doubt is present. However the reason why I lean closer to not is factoring how the Republic became rather indiscriminate of seceding worlds within the EU especially by the late stages of the war. By that point even neutral worlds weren't really safe anymore. More importantly, it brings the point that the Republic was more often than not unwilling to offer any compromise to seceding worlds. This isn't talked about much, but there were a fair amount of seceding worlds that were not even seeking to be permanent members of the Confederacy of Independent Systems but merely did so to protect their worlds from potential Republic invasion. I do agree with you that invasions of worlds that were directly fueling the Separatist war machine were fair game within war, but worlds like Umbara and Jabiim would not really fall under that. I also always take admiration for the better Jedi and clone members within it, if only because they tried to be better. It's just a shame how much those values began diminishing as the war progressed.
@@zexalbrony4799 I definitely agree the answer to these questions tend to lean into being gray, however part of why I developed as a major sympathizer for the Separatists stemmed from the fact that I would personally argue the Sith involvement was the only major factor that let their cause downfall within an extreme wartime condition. Had it not been for that or if Dooku never joined Sidious and instead led the CIS proper, the Confederacy could have and in my opinion likely would have stood as a highly free society met with a small government, open trade markets, low taxes, and kicking the corporations out of legislation, The Parliament didn't have any corporate members in it, at least from what I can remember. To me what is even more tragic is how the Separatists were really done dirty in Galactic History both during the age of the Empire but also by the New Republic in spite of the fact that the Separatists became unofficial allies to the Rebellion and if people actually looked at the ideals instead of Grievous, they would understand that the Separatist cause meant something that would have enabled the needs of the Outer Rim to finally be addressed. Mini Bonteri for Head of State, anyone?
Can I be unbanned from your discord server
The seps are libertarians of course i side with them. The imperials and rebels are exactly what you think they are.
They still think they'll get sympathy from the likes of me and kther? Pshaw, face it, having justifiable woes and them still being living, breathing people doesn't necessarily make them be forgiving for partaking on the wrong side of history.
At least their children, grandchildren, and so on will be exempt from the prejudice, assuming they aren't vengeful in the coming of the next generations and its own conflicts.
I think the Separatists did have a point, but where too narrow-minded to fight the true enemies within the Republic (such as Palpatine). It's similar to how the Ukraine wants it's own independence (CIS) from Russia (The Republic), but also switched since Ukraine was mostly innocent, while Russia is just power-hungry and also led by a Sith-like leader.
I can’t help but feel like this video is mostly… incorrect
Agreed.