Thank you for the video. Nicely done. I have been studying the nec 2020 code for service disconnects and it is a bit confusing. However, your installation is a good example of the code applied to a real situation. For anyone puzzled by the requirements here is an explanation which explains it very clearly. It helped me. "Per 2020 NEC section 230.70, a service disconnect is required to be installed for a building on the exterior of the building or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. In cases where the service entrance conductors leave the meter, penetrate the home, and go directly into the electrical panel, the main breaker within the electrical panel often serves as the main service disconnect required by 230.70. Where the service entrance conductors penetrate the home and do not terminate directly into the electrical panel, a main service disconnect mounted on the exterior of the home".
Trying to understand this code, as to when an exterior disconnect is required. For no exterior disconnect, does the interior panel need to be back to back, as in the shop of this video, or is there a minimum distance allowable, such as 5 ft or something? Thanks for any answers.
@@steventhury83662023 NEC says: No maximum distance between the point of entrance of service conductors to a readily accessible location for the installation of a service disconnecting means is specified. The authority enforcing the NEC is responsible for the decision on how far inside the building the service-entrance conductors are allowed to travel to the service disconnecting means. The length of service-entrance conductors should be kept to a minimum inside buildings. There is an increased fire hazard because power utilities provide limited overcurrent protection. Some local jurisdictions specify a maximum length that service-entrance conductors may be run within the building before terminating at the disconnecting means. If the AHJ determines the distance to be excessive, the disconnecting means may be required to be located on the outside of the building or near the building at a readily accessible location.
Looks Great! We wired ours the same. We have a cut-off panel that feeds into the house to a breaker panel. Just a suggestion, I used the breaker slots on cut-off panel (I think we got 8 as well) to feed an RV service box and a couple of outdoor outlet boxes. I also used it to bring in my feed from my solar array. We went with direct grid-tie on the solar to avoid the cost of the batteries. The electric company provided us with a bi-directional meter that will run backwards when we're producing more solar electricity than the house is using at the time. We're in the process of adding a 2nd house to the property along with a 2nd cut-off box. Good luck with your project.
I enjoyed the video and all of your explanations to the comments. I even enjoyed the arguing between commentators. You have shown exactly the type of service panel setup that was recommended to us by the engineer in our county (TN). I had started looking for a 400 amp panel but your setup will work much better for us, considering that so many items are backordered for months. Our house is an existing older one that we stripped to the studs, but its about the same distance as yours. We have to provide the meter base, and dig the trench and lay the conduit from the meter base to the transformer 96 ft away. Otherwise we will have a very similar setup, so I hope you don't mind if we need to pick your brain at a later date. I especially like the spaces in the shutoff panel for the house. We wanted to power the well from the shed instead of the house (closer, after rewiring the house) and maybe add a plug for a camper. If you were to have a home generator installed, I wonder if it could be connected to that shutoff panel for the house to keep the sound level down. I'd like to add that it's both very helpful and very brave to post your videos, knowing that people will attack your choices. They fail to consider differences in local jurisdiction rules, updated and improved materials, and good old fashioned research, not to mention just not listening to what you are saying (regarding the grounding among other things). I am a major diy-er not as much by choice as necessity. Too many years of hired out jobs not so well done (I learned a lot from their mistakes) and now the lack of availability from the pros (my jobs are too small), so I'm going it on my own with the help of those willing to share their wisdom.
Nicely laid out, bro. Once you pass inspection, and all the involved parties in your jurisdiction are happy, you're good to go. The code is really a guideline for minimal requirements; it's NOT an electrician's Bible. Some stick to it to the letter, others go beyond in areas where possible/reasonable. Remember, it's all about safety first...then functionality, and esthetics.
Thanks. This is very similar to what I'm doing. Thanks! My county power company seems to be a little more strict than yours. I just had to build a rack(you can see what I had to do in my latest video) for my service.
Thanks for sharing. I have a replacing the electrical service project coming up at home and I like your idea of using the disconnect with the feed through lugs.
Just an FYI, the 2020 NEC 230.85 requires an emergency disconnect. Great video. I don't understand why people harp on you so hard. You are not an electrician and you have said that many times. All he is doing to showing you what he did based on his research. If he's wrong, just state why and where it says in the code.
Nice presentation sir..You used aluminum conductor.. My suggestion is for you to have the main Ground conductor..overall nice presentation..Shout out and God bless..
You said you didn’t know what you could use your outdoor breakers for. One thing you can do is get a hen interlock slider, buy a 50A double pole breaker, and a 50A rated inlet box. Now you can power that building with either a 50A or 30A generator when power goes out.
Grounding and bonding, right now you have an ungrounded system you need to provide bonding between all metal cabinets most likely you'll need to provide 1 or 2 eight-foot ground rods separated by at least 6 feet apart. You stated you do not have to have an inspection, then I would recommend that you have a local license electrician check your work and sign off on it for insurance purposes. De rating your neutral isn't worth the 10 foot of wire you're using, as you have to be more concerned on balancing load between current caring conductors.
Great info. I will be needing to do a similar set up on our new build. Do you know if the cut off switch could go into your garage? Would like to have a transfer switch in the garage and a back up generator there and not beside the house. Would prefer to have everything but the meter base inside.
I think it would be up to your local power company. They told me that the disconnect for my house had to be by the meter but the disconnect for the shop is certainly inside. I’m not sure if they would have let me put the house disconnect inside the shop. Practically, it should be outside since the purpose is to cut power to the house for the power company working on the meter. I would not have put up that panel if I didn’t have to, but it did make wiring the house later a lot easier since I didn’t have to call the power company to open the meter to run the new wires. Thanks for watching.
I wonder what guage the power company uses to feed that setup. Probably 4/0... Also if you touch a feed lug with your screwdriver there will be a nice 💥 and the screwdriver end Melts and or welds itself to the panel, (usually just takes a nice big chunk out of the end of your screwdriver) ask me how I know.😜 Much appreciated for the video too. 😎👍🙏💯
@@Ciband yeah it always seems like they go undersized, on their triplex too. My inspector just told me to use 250 aluminum for double 200amp panels for a double gang meter socket, my point of attachment is up unlike yours. Thanks for the video 👍😎
Can you give me the brand and model number of the meter base you have? I’m trying to do the same thing on a house and shop. Did you add the dual lugs to split the power or do they come that way? Thanks for any help you can give! Bill
I did wonder about that. I have the two disconnects for the 2 “legs” of the 320amp service grouped on the same building, just one inside and one outside. I think this complies with at least some version of the NEC. In reality, the house will have an emergency disconnect on the outside per NEC 2020. I did not want yet another exterior panel on the shop just to feed to an inside panel so I am comfortable with the configuration.
@@Ciband ... grouping disconnects together only applies when the power is all within the same building. IOW, an apartment or several store fronts under the same roof.
Where do those other wires going out of the back of the panel go? If there is another panel on the other side of the wall it probably has a main disconnect just like the one you have outside. The problem is all disconnects have to be in the same location. So you're interior panel with main breaker should be outside next to your other panel. Then you nipple through the wall with a PVC nipple to run all your Romex through.
For my install I am not feeding the service conductors through another panel into the shop. The meter and inside panel are back to back. Thanks for watching.
Yeah, I got a bad feeling. I think your gonna have to get a combination meter base main setup. The biggest you can get is 200 amps. Now you have a main breaker incorporated with the meter panel. They do make meter base main panels with provisions to add in 2 pole 100 amp breakers to feed various panels on your property. If you need more than 20O amps feeding your property you will probably have to install a current transformer can. The power from the utility will enter this can . Then the meter is beside the CT can connected with a 1" nipple. Then the current transformers provided by the power company make the meter work. Then you can double lug on the load side of the terminal in the ct can and feed your panels. You have to supply the can and the guts and install it all. The power company will supply and install the current transformers and wire them to their meter. You maybe able to go with a service larger than 200amps single phase if your power company allows it.
thank you, I was able to find it and I'm guessing it went up on price since you last purchase it LOL, cheapest I found is $189. Thank you tho for the quick response @@Ciband
I honestly don't know and am unable to open it to check since it is tagged by the power company. It was provided by the power company. This question has come up a lot and I think there are others in the comments that have speculated as to what brand it is. Sorry I was not more help.
If those wires going out of the back of the meter base are feeding another panel with a main breaker that panel has to be outside next to the outside panel. See nec article 230.72. Grouping of Disconnects. (A,) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in 230.71 shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked to indicate the load being served. You don't have them grouped. One is outside and one is inside. You main disconnects can't be separated inside and out.
Very useful video for any non electrician planning a similar project. I especially appreciate that you responded to almost all questions. Did your PoCo give you any trouble about doing this since you are not a licensed electrician?
Thank you. I’m glad you are enjoying them. They did not. In my county I have no inspections and no permits. They looked at how I did t the service wire and I did it to their specs so they were happy.
I was told my disconnect and my "Main" panel which is in your garage had to be grouped meaning both outside or in my case both inside. besides each other. just curious as to why this wasn't the case for you??
Not sure. Local laws vary and can be stricter than the NEC. I can see the logic in grouping them together. I did not have that requirement and didn’t want a main panel outside or yet another disconnect outside for my shop panel. Thanks for watching.
Your meter socket was most likely made by TALON or used TALON guts [BEST METER SOCKET] .I myself would have used SQUARE D QO or SIEMENS with COPPER BUSS .As for the cable i would have used 3/0 copper for all 3 conductors . Both panels are service and must have the bonding screw . The run going to the house must have a forth equipment grounding conductor .I would suggest using a MAIN BREAKER panel in the house just incase of an emergency. Inside the house you must not bond the neutral [green screw] you must have a separate GROUND BAR for all your grounds. I would strongly suggest you use pigtailed neutral AFCI/GFCI breakers because the neutral bar is of aluminum. Since your using aluminum i would highly suggest you use penatrox antioxide compound on your connections on your main lugs plus use a torque wrench to set them to the right torque specks . Ive seen trouble with aluminum cable & wiring . This is why i dont use this stuff not to mention in my area its not allowed.
Thanks for the tips. I was planning on doing most of that. The meter can was provided by my PoCo and was free to me so I wasn’t about to do anything different.
The breaker at the service feed is considered a disconnect and protects the cable. I am not thinking the house panel should be a sub feed panel. That would make the panel installation more difficult maybe...As I say I am trying to learn the ropes here.... IF you do run the 4th conductor you can use Table 250.66 to save cost on the 4th wire...
Yeah for the house since the 1st disconnect is on my shop per my PoCo’s requirements, then I have to run four wires to the house and make the panel a sub panel with no bonding screw. For that I’m running MHF quadplex 4/0-4/0-2/0-4
@@jstone1211 The house panel would be considered a subpanel because its coming off the equipment on the shop .If i were running 3/0 copper then i would need a no 4 copper equipment grounding conductor . You must put all your grounds on a separate grounding bar in both panels on the house .The neutral CANNOT BE BONDED TO THE BOX on the outside panel or inside panel on the house. You should calculate your distance between the shop [service equipment] and the house. You might need a larger cable because of distance & VOLTAGE DROP.
It is crazy how an outdoor breaker box is so much cheaper than the outdoor disconnect that they actually want in the code.. the 'firefighters' switch as it is called in some places...
@6:31 Seems counter intuitive that you are talking about the ground wire on the lug on the left, but there is a green screw on the right that would seem to indicate put ground connections on the right, and neutrals on the left. (As if there really is such a thing as a neutral -- more Negative connection, after load connection.) I'm more in favor of supply leg, and return leg.
That green screw is the bonding screw for bonding neutrals and grounds. Has no bearing or indication on where to land grounds. Left and right doesn’t matter. Land them where it makes sense physically based on where the wires come into the panel. Both sides are neutral busses and connected together so it is all the same. Thanks for watching.
Hey man you using 4/0 on a 200 you should be running 3/0 400amp os normal used on an 400amp panel plus the panel inside the shed should have the bonding screw removed
4/0 aluminum is perfectly fine for 200A residential. 2 parallel 4/0 AL for a 320A service is pretty common. By 3/0 I assume you mean copper, which is much more expensive. aluminum moves the electrons good enough I think. You bond the panel at the first disconnect which means for the parallel service you bond at each parallel panel as there is no option to bond at the meter with my PoCo. If I got something wrong please let me know. Thanks for watching and the feedback.
@@Ciband No man I do not see where you did anything wrong Just in my State Bonding is only allowed at the Main with would be considered you meter then we are not allowed to run UF inside the main panel only on the utility side but overall very good clean work man its just different here in CA
The use on the feed through lug panel was fabulous. I like that idea...maybe someday out door lights or an RV hook-up "who knows" but its nice to have the option for more power outside without drilling holes into your shop to get power outside. Did you set two ground rods 6' apart below the panels or did you install an Ufer ground? I find it interesting both panels have the green bonding screw attached but I guess they are both main panels.
I used two ground rods. The house will have a ufer. Yeah as near as I can figure from code that are both main panels since the service is paralleled. Thanks for watching.
@@Ciband I agree great Idea. I know one of my separate buildings with its own meter has the service disconnect and the meter in one box. It also has another breaker in it for the outside pool equipment. I wonder if they still do that.
If use feed through log panel can not use 4/0 luminum you have to use 250 kcmil or 3/0 copper because you can not apply 3.10.15(b) (7) of nec 2017 or 310.12 of 2017 nec
I am going to. I will actually have another external disconnect feed through panel on the house and the a back to back panel in the garage. Each will have a 200A main breaker.
Just 320amp. The extra disconnect on the shop building is one that I would not have put in but the PoCo made me. The one on the house is technically required by NEC 2020. I’m doing it mainly for convenience of have some breakers outside to feed other things like a pool sub panel. They are cheap. No one ever said I have to many spaces in the panel :)
copper even if it’s expensive Copper can take more load then aluminum and if you over bend aluminum it leaves hot zones in the cable also did you put penetrox on the lugs and open aluminum conductors ?
Sure, I agree. AL gets the job done for service conductors. The cable and lugs I used did not require it per the manufacture. Modern aluminum wire and lugs do not need it.
I have 320 amp service to the property with 1 200 amp panel for the house and 1 200 amp panel for the shop. I did not want the additional expense of 3 phase. I don’t think I will need that much power but who knows down the road.
3-phase is not a thing everywhere. Most of the US has "single" phase: a single phase 14kV goes down each street, with a special transformer for 1 to 3 houses making a split-phase so 125Vblack+125Vred makes 250V. The middle of the secondary coil in the transfo is neutral, *and* gets grounded!! Getting 3 phase down an ordinary street is a major upgrade back to the distribution line.
@@Ciband Thank you very much! So the Square D panel can be used as a breaker for up to 16 breakers (8 doubles)? Did you end up using any of those circuit breaker slots or just feed the main panel? The link you provided was for a 200AMP with feed thru lugs.... I am going to have a 400A 1Ph service and then feed (2) 200A 120/240v breaker panels one for the 3000 S.F. house, one 200A for the Garage that has a bonus room above, and out of that panel feed a 100A Breaker Panel for my RV Building. Should I keep looking for the right 320/400 Meter Main? I found a Siemens MM0404l1400RLM 120/240 VAC 400Amp 1Phase 22kaA 3-wire 2 Circuit Ringless Meter main that I believe is what I may need? Of course my electrician will be the final decision maker. Link: www.1sourcedist.com/product/detail/5262145/siemens-mm0404l1400rlm
I can’t speak to the meter main as I don’t have a lot of experience on that but I think you are on the right track. I am using 2 slots of the feedthrough panel for the surge protector for the house. I decided to put it there as close to the service entrance as possible. I have a matching one on the shop panel. I will probably add a generator back feed breaker and interlock kit there too, eventually. Thanks for watching and good luck with your build.
@@Ciband As to your METER BASE with the DUAL LUGS did the POC give that to you or did have to purchase that 320 Meter base? If you have a part number of the Meter base I would like to have it from you --- I need to be able to have a DUAL LUG 320 continuous service meter base with dual lugs as I want also to to feed two 200 amp panels like you have done.
I do not have a part number, unfortunately. This base was provided to me for “free” as a part of the install cost for the service from the power company.
@@Ciband It’s required to have separate neutral and grounds on your sub panel (you’ll need to buy ground bars that screw into Pre-designated on either side) and only for your feedthrough panel you would have neutrals and grounds tied together and your lighting rod/ground bar can connect it into the the Neutral bar in feedthrough panel
Could you please provide a part number for the Meter Base and the Feed Through Panel? I am doing 320amp as well but I have to supply my own meter base. Thanks!
For the meter can, I don’t have the part number and it is sealed now by the PoCo. The feed through panel I’m using is a Square D Homeline. Model is: HOM816M200PFTRB I know they make a QO version if you want that upgrade. Thanks for watching and I hope this helps.
Thank you for watching. My PoCo ran 4/0 Triplex URD from the transformer. I was surprised by this as it has to carry the 320A service. They said that is what they do. I know they don’t have to play by NEC rules so I assume it is ok for them. If my meter melts I guess we will know. Thanks for the question.
From the chart I found from Cerrowire (which I assume is based on NEC) it is 250A @ 75C and 280A @ 90C. Not sure if they ran an HH rated conductor or not. I honest don’t know how the PoCo determine this or not. I’m sure they have different guidelines. I would also believe that the NEC very much errs on the side of caution. I wouldn’t worry. I’m not with my setup.
Looks like he's got both of the panels bonded. I would think that he would need to bond everything in the meter and separate the ground and neutral in both panels?
If I remember correctly, I only needed 3 wire service cable since I was going from the meter to the first disconnect where the neutrals and grounds are bonded. I could only find 4 wire cable so I just bought it and did not use the ground wire. Thanks for watching.
My parents house is set up the same way with the external box next to the meter. They have 380 amp service and it was installed in '96. So what your power company did isn't nothing new.
@@Ciband yes on the main breaker panel but I think I'm my state starting this year you have to have a disconnect outside near the meter... Again tell me if I'm wrong
I know NEC 2020 requires it on houses. Not sure if that applies to detached garages/shop buildings. I do not have an external disconnect for the shop building.
Not specifically. Feeding a 200 amp OCPD panel with 4/0 AL seems to be code compliant for my application as far as I know. Are you saying the 83% rules can’t / doesn’t apply due to the 320A service or the feed through panels on the house set of service feeders?
Nice. Question and I’m a non electrician by the way. If I’m using a 2 gang meter socket and I want to feed 2 200 amps to 2 meters. Is 3/0 Cooper okay to wire to that meter socket or would I need 4/0 copper?
According to the nec, there must be a means of disconnecting be the panel, some part of the nec where it says it applies? My Ingles is not very good gracias
Neutral and EGC are bonded at the each first disconnect (I have 2). From there I have the ground rods bonded to each panel ( panel -> panel -> rod -> rod)
As I stated in the video about it, this is what I think is correct based on my understanding of the code. I am not a pro. YMMV. Ground rods are localized around a structure and thus all panels and sub panels at that structure should be bonded to them. For my house, the panels there will bond to the house ufer. Those panels are sub panels from the panel at the other building. The EGC are all ultimately bonded together. This creates a more equipotential ground plain in the dirt so there are is not a large voltage between the structures. This is at least how I understand it. There are proper electricians that comment on the videos who could explain it better I’m sure.
Thank you, and good question. I’m a nerd so this was one of my first D&D character names. Since it has been my handle on the Internet and various games. Thanks for watching.
@@Ciband me either but still have to get it done and with the lack of professionals because of too much Govt regulation requirements and licensing we have no one in the area.
Cheaper equipment I think. 1) The meter can was free to me so that helped the decision. 2) 400 disconnects seem to be quite pricey compared to a parallel meter can and “normal” 200A panels.
@@Ciband The main benefit of having a parallel feed is that instead of having one main panel, you now have two main panels and this affects your grounding systems requirements. I would not have used the feed through panel as the disconnect. Had you used a main disconnect, the panel you ran to your house would have been a main panel and your grounding system would be closer. You WILL have to run a copper ground from the disconnect to your house and that will probably cost more than the extra dollars for the disconnect.
@@qball3834 wrong on that he would still have to bond the disconnect and run the 4th wire, and not bond the other panel. Aground rod still has to be driven at the house
@@thomasmarable6818 Not wrong at all. The fact that you now have to install an emergency disconnect between the can and the main service panel means that the disconnect is the first point of disconnect and therefore where ground and neutral are bonded together. ALL subsequent panels are subpanels and therefore are not to be bonded (neutral and ground) together. Unless we are talking two different things here, this is the 2020 NEC required installation.
The bonding screw should only be in the first disconnect after the meter. In the case of a 320/400/600 amp service that has parallel feeds, typically 2 or 3 200 amp panels, each of those panels is a first disconnect and would have the bonding screw. Any panels downstream of those would be sub panels and have the bonding screw removed.
That’s correct. The outside disconnect will feed the house eventually. Yes, as far as I am aware and have researched, this is how it should be done and is code compliant.
There is a bonding screw at the first disconnect panel for each “leg” of the 320amp service. One is the main panel for the shop. The other is the feed through lug panel on the outside of the shop which will serve as a remote disconnect for the house.
@@clayadams2068 ... ya know, I have only seen an outhouse (ok, it was a plastic porto-san) wired one time in my life and that was about 40 years ago. It was actually the inspector's idea!
I think you should check your work and codes because there is no ground wire at all or even a ground bar to ground that box. You put a plastic bushing on your nipple but no ground bushing. You have a metal can and ridgid they are not PVC( that's plastic). I am concerned about the people who live or work there.
Space Dandy: Are you saying that PVC conduit requires a bond bushing? If so can you explain the best practices for this on how it is done. You would have to run a ground wire to connect the two bond bushings since PVC isn’t conductive. Would that violate the no parallel paths to ground rule (I think that is a rule)? My meter is bonded to the service equipment via the neutral. My meter has no place to land the ground.
😳 I’m not an electrician myself but watch videos like this one so that maybe I can learn how to do simple stuff around the house and avoid paying someone $2,000.00 dollars in the NYC 🗽 Area just to move a meter from one spot to the other🙄. Savages 🤯🤯😠. And what I notice about this guy is that even though he admits he’s not an experienced electrician and that’s his first rodeo or one of his first, he’s very clean when it comes to doing his job. Might be the requirements in his state but in my state I’ve seen some horrible stuff such as “experienced”??? electricians using a number 10 wire to feed from the street to the meter on a two family house with at least 8 rooms including the basement; washer machine, dryer machine, electric kitchens and giant microwaves in the two floors that when you’re cooking you can not use the microwaves cuz the wire gets hot and supposedly has been approved by the city inspector🤔 so like I said it before I’m not an electrician but I believe that even a blind person with the minimum level of knowledge in electrical stuff can see the mistakes “experienced” or careless electricians I would say, can make.
This guy just doesn't want to admit he messed up. And if it's like he said that the one outside is for another building then the one inside should have been installed outside.
If it's for a different structure it should have been installed on the other structure. Why would you mount a panel with branch circuit breakers on one building with the intention of feeding another building?
And service entrance conductors aren't fused so he should have used a meter base main disconnect with feed through lugs then mount the other panel on the building he said it was powering.
I very well might have messed up, but that is relative. NEC 2020, this might not work and I might have to have two disconnects on the outside (one for the shop per NEC and one for my house per the AHJ since the meter is on the shop and not the house). While that is nice, it is complex and not something I want to do. When I eventually add solar I might add the disconnect to bring it up to NEC2020 but for now it works. NEC 2014, this is where my area is for codes and as far as I know, my install is compliant. The house does have a disconnect on its outside per NEC2020 so I am good there.
@@Ciband the top portion of panel in workshop is live . If you have to work on cables coming in top of panel you are working in a live section of the panel .I see that there are insulators covering the main lugs but that area should not be used for safety reasons ???
help me out here! you have a 320A meter can with meter but you have 2-200 amp panels/service? that is 400 *1.25* demand factor...and you downsized the neutral in the garage panel, cant do that! Why did you chose AL over CU conductors for short runs when you have several hundred feet to run to the house. Saving pennies on your electrical service is not the place to save $. Did the inspector sign off on this install? Who did the original design?
I did the design. No inspector. PoCo didn’t seem to mind. Why pay 3x the cost when I don’t need to. I understand copper is better but aluminum works, is to code, and easy to swap should I ever need to. Downsizing the neutral one trade size is pretty common, especially since the triplex I bought was setup that way. Thank don’t makes you feel better my shop will have a lot of 240v equipment. I’m sure if I did the load calculations I could go smaller, but MHF is cheap. As far as 320amp (continuous) vs 400amp (peak), using a pair of 200a panels on this type of service is pretty common. The service conductors from each “leg” on the meter are sized for 200a (4/0) so I’m pretty sure that is ok. Thanks for the comments.
@@Ciband I am a retired electrical engineer with a Prof. Engineers license and I am studying for my electricians license. I found this post which i find interesting. I am going to use this case example to aid my study for the exam. I am not trying to be a smarty or do a gotcha...trying to learn from this. I notice you use terms like "pretty common" and "pretty sure". Electrical installations and engineering are based on standards of engineering and safety codes. Just saying.... There is a reason why the neutral is sized the same as the ungrounded conductors (not wires). During a fault of line-to-line or line to ground the neutral is required to carry that current which can very high as in the tens of thousands of amps. They are called symmetrical and unsymmetrical faults. FYI. Grounding conductors bonded to the equipment is there to reduce the potential of the equipment to zero. This is why Table 250.66 allows for smaller grounded conductors. Even though 240V equipment is used the neutral will carry some currents and is required to be the same size as the ungrounded conductors. I need to study this more. Chapter 2, Articles 220 and 230 deal mostly with SE conductors for housing while Chapter 4 (I am not there yet) will pertain more to your situation. As for no inspector and it seems you are not "licensed" so IF something goes wrong such as a fire or an accident the insurance company will not be too friendly. IMO. This gives people like me a job...LOL. The NFPA 70 (NEC) exists for a reason and should be followed, its all about safety for your shop. I need to study this more but something is not right it seems. I hope you dont mind me examining this, others may learn as well. Regards, Ron / PE
I am all about learning. I appreciate the discussion. I’m a software engineer with some electronics background so I think I get your mindset. For sufficient 240v equipment, you can downsize the neutral. If there is a ground fault, that runs through the EGC not the neutral, until get gets back to the first disconnect where they are bonded, or at least that is my understanding. For a dead short then it’s just the two hots touching and then no neutral is involved. In reality this shop will not see a constant neutral load that will even approach maxing out a 2/0 AL.
@@jstone1211 Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) - A conductive path that is part of an effective ***ground-fault*** current path and connects normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded conductor (service neutral conductor) or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both.
So that's the meter base the power company provided? Good for you! Now it's on them. If they provided you with a 320 amp meter base then they must know the lugs and clear space in that can will accommodate their wires coming in and your wires going out. But they can't come in the bottom like you piped for them. Did they say they were coming into the meter base through the bottom.? Line an load on a meter base cannot share the same space. They have to come outside on the left to the line side lugs on the meter socket. It looks small, but they provided it. It's on them if it's wrong. They're gonna get out of it though by telling you your pipe job causes their wires to cross yours and that's unacceptable and their wires have to be totally independent of your wires so you will have to re-pipe up the side of the can and install a big lb or weather proof box nippled into the meter can. I'd like to see the size of wire they are bringing in to feed the line side of the meter. It will be aluminum tri-plex. They will use whatever will fit regardless of how much current you need. They are exempt from following the NEC. I'm surprised they arentbring the service wire in a conduit. Usually when you use direct bury cable that's not in pipe you have to provide a substantial sand base and substantial sand covering then you can fill in with dirt. But that's not NEC. That's what we use in my area, which is a lot of work for residential so we use 3" conduit as required by our local utility.
I appreciate the idea. I ran the voltage drop calculations and they came back good for 3% drop on 200A at a max distance of around 150ft IIRC so I should be good. House distance is less than that.
As per NEC section 220.61 (C) (1), there shall be no reduction of the neutral or grounded conductor capacity applied to Any portion of a three-wire circuit consisting of two ungrounded (hot) conductors and the neutral conductor of a three-phase, four-wire, wye-connected system. The outside panel as you describe is a required disconnect. NEC Article 230.70 (A) states that a disconnecting means for the main service must be located either outside or inside the building nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. This panel with the pass through lugs is very useful. But your house panel is not required to be a subfeed panel where you can save a few bucks on a forth conductor.
I am not on a 3 phase system Wye system. Standard split phase residential, 3 wire, not 4 wire. The first disconnecting means is where the neutral and EGC are bonded. From there all feeds outward are sub panels, regardless of physical location. I believe an older version of NEC allowed feeders between buildings to be 3 wire but this is not so now. I think it changed in 2011 or 2014.
@@Ciband yes you are on a three wire system. I know for certain the PoCo xfmer is wye connected. The code is pretty clear and based on the date of this install you cant go my 2011 or 2014 requirements. I am looking at 2017 and 2020 code requirements. You most likely will get by with no issues but when you post a vid people will hold you to the code...you dont get to make the rules based on assumptions....
If the load calc shows enough across the line loads, then reducing the nuetral is allowed somewhere in the code? Not on three phase, not on lighting panels especially with non linear loads. 3 phase lighting dedicated panels-think warehouse or airport, may need a bigger nuetral due to triplen harmonics on ballasts. This install will probably get an air compressor, lift, a/c, welder. All across the line loads. House has water heaters, stoves, central ac. So reducing the nuetral works.
😮that would not be permitted in Germany, such a system would be brought into the building then it is protected against rain and wind and against unauthorized persons inside building, and then it would be in an extra room with a door that could be locked
Thank you for the video. Nicely done. I have been studying the nec 2020 code for service disconnects and it is a bit confusing. However, your installation is a good example of the code applied to a real situation. For anyone puzzled by the requirements here is an explanation which explains it very clearly. It helped me.
"Per 2020 NEC section 230.70, a service disconnect is required to be installed for a building on the exterior of the building or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. In cases where the service entrance conductors leave the meter, penetrate the home, and go directly into the electrical panel, the main breaker within the electrical panel often serves as the main service disconnect required by 230.70. Where the service entrance conductors penetrate the home and do not terminate directly into the electrical panel, a main service disconnect mounted on the exterior of the home".
Thank you for the kind words. I’m glad the video was helpful.
Thanks for watching.
Trying to understand this code, as to when an exterior disconnect is required.
For no exterior disconnect, does the interior panel need to be back to back, as in the shop of this video, or is there a minimum distance allowable, such as 5 ft or something?
Thanks for any answers.
@@steventhury83662023 NEC says: No maximum distance between the point of entrance of service conductors to a
readily accessible location for the installation of a service disconnecting means
is specified. The authority enforcing the NEC is responsible for the decision on how far inside the building the service-entrance conductors are allowed to
travel to the service disconnecting means. The length of service-entrance conductors should be kept to a minimum inside buildings. There is an increased
fire hazard because power utilities provide limited overcurrent protection. Some local jurisdictions specify a maximum length that service-entrance conductors may be run within the building before terminating at the disconnecting means.
If the AHJ determines the distance to be excessive, the disconnecting means may be required to be located on the outside of the building or near the building at a readily accessible location.
Looks Great! We wired ours the same. We have a cut-off panel that feeds into the house to a breaker panel. Just a suggestion, I used the breaker slots on cut-off panel (I think we got 8 as well) to feed an RV service box and a couple of outdoor outlet boxes. I also used it to bring in my feed from my solar array. We went with direct grid-tie on the solar to avoid the cost of the batteries. The electric company provided us with a bi-directional meter that will run backwards when we're producing more solar electricity than the house is using at the time. We're in the process of adding a 2nd house to the property along with a 2nd cut-off box. Good luck with your project.
Awesome. That sounds like a nice setup. Good luck to you as well. Thanks for watching.
I enjoyed the video and all of your explanations to the comments. I even enjoyed the arguing between commentators. You have shown exactly the type of service panel setup that was recommended to us by the engineer in our county (TN). I had started looking for a 400 amp panel but your setup will work much better for us, considering that so many items are backordered for months. Our house is an existing older one that we stripped to the studs, but its about the same distance as yours. We have to provide the meter base, and dig the trench and lay the conduit from the meter base to the transformer 96 ft away. Otherwise we will have a very similar setup, so I hope you don't mind if we need to pick your brain at a later date. I especially like the spaces in the shutoff panel for the house. We wanted to power the well from the shed instead of the house (closer, after rewiring the house) and maybe add a plug for a camper. If you were to have a home generator installed, I wonder if it could be connected to that shutoff panel for the house to keep the sound level down. I'd like to add that it's both very helpful and very brave to post your videos, knowing that people will attack your choices. They fail to consider differences in local jurisdiction rules, updated and improved materials, and good old fashioned research, not to mention just not listening to what you are saying (regarding the grounding among other things). I am a major diy-er not as much by choice as necessity. Too many years of hired out jobs not so well done (I learned a lot from their mistakes) and now the lack of availability from the pros (my jobs are too small), so I'm going it on my own with the help of those willing to share their wisdom.
Thank you for the kind words and thank you for watching. Good luck on your project and send any questions any time. I’m happy to help if I can.
Nicely laid out, bro. Once you pass inspection, and all the involved parties in your jurisdiction are happy, you're good to go.
The code is really a guideline for minimal requirements; it's NOT an electrician's Bible.
Some stick to it to the letter, others go beyond in areas where possible/reasonable. Remember, it's all about safety first...then functionality, and esthetics.
Thank you much, and thanks for watching.
Nice job....those extra spaces in the pnl can go towards the future MAN CAAAVE⚡⚡
Thanks. This is very similar to what I'm doing. Thanks! My county power company seems to be a little more strict than yours. I just had to build a rack(you can see what I had to do in my latest video) for my service.
just and FYI on uni strut, be sure use the right one for outdoor, usually zinc galvanized, the plain or anodized only may rust as is for indoor use.
Thanks for sharing. I have a replacing the electrical service project coming up at home and I like your idea of using the disconnect with the feed through lugs.
Thanks for watching
Just an FYI, the 2020 NEC 230.85 requires an emergency disconnect. Great video. I don't understand why people harp on you so hard. You are not an electrician and you have said that many times. All he is doing to showing you what he did based on his research. If he's wrong, just state why and where it says in the code.
Thank you for the kind words and for watching.
Some states are not on 2020.
Nice presentation sir..You used aluminum conductor.. My suggestion is for you to have the main Ground conductor..overall nice presentation..Shout out and God bless..
You said you didn’t know what you could use your outdoor breakers for. One thing you can do is get a hen interlock slider, buy a 50A double pole breaker, and a 50A rated inlet box. Now you can power that building with either a 50A or 30A generator when power goes out.
Grounding and bonding, right now you have an ungrounded system you need to provide bonding between all metal cabinets most likely you'll need to provide 1 or 2 eight-foot ground rods separated by at least 6 feet apart. You stated you do not have to have an inspection, then I would recommend that you have a local license electrician check your work and sign off on it for insurance purposes. De rating your neutral isn't worth the 10 foot of wire you're using, as you have to be more concerned on balancing load between current caring conductors.
For grounding, check out the next videos in the series. That topic is covered. Thanks for watching.
Because the building is remote from the house, I believe it also requires a grounding rod even though the house has grounding rods?
You are correct. It does.
Great info. I will be needing to do a similar set up on our new build. Do you know if the cut off switch could go into your garage?
Would like to have a transfer switch in the garage and a back up generator there and not beside the house. Would prefer to have everything but the meter base inside.
I think it would be up to your local power company. They told me that the disconnect for my house had to be by the meter but the disconnect for the shop is certainly inside. I’m not sure if they would have let me put the house disconnect inside the shop.
Practically, it should be outside since the purpose is to cut power to the house for the power company working on the meter.
I would not have put up that panel if I didn’t have to, but it did make wiring the house later a lot easier since I didn’t have to call the power company to open the meter to run the new wires.
Thanks for watching.
I wonder what guage the power company uses to feed that setup. Probably 4/0... Also if you touch a feed lug with your screwdriver there will be a nice 💥 and the screwdriver end Melts and or welds itself to the panel, (usually just takes a nice big chunk out of the end of your screwdriver) ask me how I know.😜 Much appreciated for the video too. 😎👍🙏💯
Thanks for watching.
My power company used 4/0 AL URD.
@@Ciband yeah it always seems like they go undersized, on their triplex too. My inspector just told me to use 250 aluminum for double 200amp panels for a double gang meter socket, my point of attachment is up unlike yours. Thanks for the video 👍😎
Your meter box is gorgeous
Thank you
Can you give me the brand and model number of the meter base you have? I’m trying to do the same thing on a house and shop. Did you add the dual lugs to split the power or do they come that way? Thanks for any help you can give! Bill
I don’t have it. It was provided by my electric company.
Any 320A or 400A meter can should work and have the parallel lugs.
Thanks for watching.
What happened to the NEC rule about all service disconnects being grouped together? I guess different parts of the country have different rules.
I did wonder about that. I have the two disconnects for the 2 “legs” of the 320amp service grouped on the same building, just one inside and one outside.
I think this complies with at least some version of the NEC.
In reality, the house will have an emergency disconnect on the outside per NEC 2020.
I did not want yet another exterior panel on the shop just to feed to an inside panel so I am comfortable with the configuration.
@@Ciband ... grouping disconnects together only applies when the power is all within the same building. IOW, an apartment or several store fronts under the same roof.
Where did you get the meter box with the double lugs going out? What brand? I need to basically do the exact same set up.
It was given to me by my power company. I do not know the brand.
Where do those other wires going out of the back of the panel go? If there is another panel on the other side of the wall it probably has a main disconnect just like the one you have outside. The problem is all disconnects have to be in the same location. So you're interior panel with main breaker should be outside next to your other panel. Then you nipple through the wall with a PVC nipple to run all your Romex through.
IM AN ELETRICION AND IM VERRY IMPRESSED WHAT U DID, AND THEM- SOME.
Thank you for the kind words and thanks for watching.
I don't know
Where you went to become an electrician.Theres no bonding bushings or proper grounding anywhere.Red tags left and right.
No bond bushings needed for pvc.
Grounded is covered in another video.
Great, but In our city we can not run the service wires(from the outside meter base to the inside workshop) passing through the breakers space..
For my install I am not feeding the service conductors through another panel into the shop. The meter and inside panel are back to back.
Thanks for watching.
So what size (kcml) wire does the power company bring into your meter base? Will your meter base be able to accommodate their wire?
On the sub panel being feed from the feed thru lugs, is it going to be a MLO panel or main breaker?
It will have a main breaker.
Thanks for watching.
Yeah, I got a bad feeling. I think your gonna have to get a combination meter base main setup. The biggest you can get is 200 amps. Now you have a main breaker incorporated with the meter panel. They do make meter base main panels with provisions to add in 2 pole 100 amp breakers to feed various panels on your property. If you need more than 20O amps feeding your property you will probably have to install a current transformer can. The power from the utility will enter this can . Then the meter is beside the CT can connected with a 1" nipple. Then the current transformers provided by the power company make the meter work. Then you can double lug on the load side of the terminal in the ct can and feed your panels. You have to supply the can and the guts and install it all. The power company will supply and install the current transformers and wire them to their meter. You maybe able to go with a service larger than 200amps single phase if your power company allows it.
can you share the brand and name of the 200amp disconnect with 8 spacers, looking to do the same thing.
It’s a square d homeline 200A 8 space feed through lug panel.
The part number is somewhere in the comment section but it is the only model they make.
thank you, I was able to find it and I'm guessing it went up on price since you last purchase it LOL, cheapest I found is $189. Thank you tho for the quick response
@@Ciband
It has gone up, for sure.
Thanks for watching.
Can you tell me the Brand and model # of your 320 Amp Meter that they gave you? This is exactly what I've been looking for. Thank you.
I honestly don't know and am unable to open it to check since it is tagged by the power company. It was provided by the power company. This question has come up a lot and I think there are others in the comments that have speculated as to what brand it is. Sorry I was not more help.
If those wires going out of the back of the meter base are feeding another panel with a main breaker that panel has to be outside next to the outside panel. See nec article 230.72. Grouping of Disconnects. (A,) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in 230.71 shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked to indicate the load being served. You don't have them grouped. One is outside and one is inside. You main disconnects can't be separated inside and out.
Thanks for the feedback.
I thought 230.72 applied to a single service, with the idea of a smaller panel not having a main breaker but having
Can you please provide info for the outdoor disconnect panels that you are using.? Thanks
If you check the comments on this video, it should be there. If you cannot find it I can get you the info. I just don’t have it handy.
Very useful video for any non electrician planning a similar project. I especially appreciate that you responded to almost all questions. Did your PoCo give you any trouble about doing this since you are not a licensed electrician?
Thank you. I’m glad you are enjoying them.
They did not. In my county I have no inspections and no permits. They looked at how I did t the service wire and I did it to their specs so they were happy.
I'm assuming that your "feeder cable" is 2-2-2-4 right?
The cables pictures are 4/0-4/0-2/0 to the first disconnects.
The feeder to the house is a 4/0-4/0-2/0-4.
All aluminum.
Were did you source the feeder cable?
My local supply house, Elliot Electric. They are regional so you might have one by you. I definitely recommend.
Thanks for watching.
What kind of offset conduit did you use to connect the meter base to the square D panel?
It was a 2” PVC offset. I think they are called meter offsets. It’s about a 9” pieces with a couple 45s pre-bent into it and make threads on the ends.
I was told my disconnect and my "Main" panel which is in your garage had to be grouped meaning both outside or in my case both inside. besides each other. just curious as to why this wasn't the case for you??
Not sure. Local laws vary and can be stricter than the NEC.
I can see the logic in grouping them together. I did not have that requirement and didn’t want a main panel outside or yet another disconnect outside for my shop panel.
Thanks for watching.
Your meter socket was most likely made by TALON or used TALON guts [BEST METER SOCKET] .I myself would have used SQUARE D QO or SIEMENS with COPPER BUSS .As for the cable i would have used 3/0 copper for all 3 conductors . Both panels are service and must have the bonding screw . The run going to the house must have a forth equipment grounding conductor .I would suggest using a MAIN BREAKER panel in the house just incase of an emergency. Inside the house you must not bond the neutral [green screw] you must have a separate GROUND BAR for all your grounds. I would strongly suggest you use pigtailed neutral AFCI/GFCI breakers because the neutral bar is of aluminum.
Since your using aluminum i would highly suggest you use penatrox antioxide compound on your connections on your main lugs plus use a torque wrench to set them to the right torque specks . Ive seen trouble with aluminum cable & wiring . This is why i dont use this stuff not to mention in my area its not allowed.
Thanks for the tips. I was planning on doing most of that.
The meter can was provided by my PoCo and was free to me so I wasn’t about to do anything different.
The breaker at the service feed is considered a disconnect and protects the cable. I am not thinking the house panel should be a sub feed panel. That would make the panel installation more difficult maybe...As I say I am trying to learn the ropes here....
IF you do run the 4th conductor you can use Table 250.66 to save cost on the 4th wire...
Yeah for the house since the 1st disconnect is on my shop per my PoCo’s requirements, then I have to run four wires to the house and make the panel a sub panel with no bonding screw.
For that I’m running MHF quadplex 4/0-4/0-2/0-4
@@jstone1211 The house panel would be considered a subpanel because its coming off the equipment on the shop .If i were running 3/0 copper then i would need a no 4 copper equipment grounding conductor . You must put all your grounds on a separate grounding bar in both panels on the house .The neutral CANNOT BE BONDED TO THE BOX on the outside panel or inside panel on the house. You should calculate your distance between the shop [service equipment] and the house. You might need a larger cable because of distance & VOLTAGE DROP.
I did do a voltage drop calculation. I came in with 40 feet to spare. :)
Would it have been to code to mount that box flipped 180 so that the large wires had a shorter run?
For that panel, I’m not 100% sure. I know you can do that with some Eaton panels.
It is crazy how an outdoor breaker box is so much cheaper than the outdoor disconnect that they actually want in the code.. the 'firefighters' switch as it is called in some places...
No kidding. I was very surprised.
@@Ciband ... most areas require a disconnect by the meter if the panel is more than 15 (?) feet away.
@6:31 Seems counter intuitive that you are talking about the ground wire on the lug on the left, but there is a green screw on the right that would seem to indicate put ground connections on the right, and neutrals on the left. (As if there really is such a thing as a neutral -- more Negative connection, after load connection.) I'm more in favor of supply leg, and return leg.
That green screw is the bonding screw for bonding neutrals and grounds. Has no bearing or indication on where to land grounds.
Left and right doesn’t matter. Land them where it makes sense physically based on where the wires come into the panel. Both sides are neutral busses and connected together so it is all the same.
Thanks for watching.
Hey man you using 4/0 on a 200 you should be running 3/0 400amp os normal used on an 400amp panel plus the panel inside the shed should have the bonding screw removed
4/0 aluminum is perfectly fine for 200A residential. 2 parallel 4/0 AL for a 320A service is pretty common. By 3/0 I assume you mean copper, which is much more expensive. aluminum moves the electrons good enough I think.
You bond the panel at the first disconnect which means for the parallel service you bond at each parallel panel as there is no option to bond at the meter with my PoCo.
If I got something wrong please let me know.
Thanks for watching and the feedback.
@@Ciband No man I do not see where you did anything wrong Just in my State Bonding is only allowed at the Main with would be considered you meter then we are not allowed to run UF inside the main panel only on the utility side but overall very good clean work man its just different here in CA
They are both main panels bub, both need to be bonded as he has done. No sub panel was shown in this video
The use on the feed through lug panel was fabulous. I like that idea...maybe someday out door lights or an RV hook-up "who knows" but its nice to have the option for more power outside without drilling holes into your shop to get power outside. Did you set two ground rods 6' apart below the panels or did you install an Ufer ground?
I find it interesting both panels have the green bonding screw attached but I guess they are both main panels.
I used two ground rods. The house will have a ufer.
Yeah as near as I can figure from code that are both main panels since the service is paralleled.
Thanks for watching.
@@Ciband .. yes, first panel from the meter is considered a main panel.... and two panels in your case.
Since neither of the panels are subfeed panels and both panels come from the service feed, the use of a bonding screws is required
@@Ciband I agree great Idea. I know one of my separate buildings with its own meter has the service disconnect and the meter in one box. It also has another breaker in it for the outside pool equipment. I wonder if they still do that.
If use feed through log panel can not use 4/0 luminum you have to use 250 kcmil or 3/0 copper because you can not apply 3.10.15(b) (7) of nec 2017 or 310.12 of 2017 nec
Which supply house did you get everything from?
Electrical mostly from Home Depot and Lowes. Big conductors I got from either Elliot Electric or Locke Supply.
Hey did you have to get a panel with main breaker for your house?
I am going to. I will actually have another external disconnect feed through panel on the house and the a back to back panel in the garage. Each will have a 200A main breaker.
@@Ciband wow to much panels and disconnects lol . How big is your service?
Just 320amp.
The extra disconnect on the shop building is one that I would not have put in but the PoCo made me.
The one on the house is technically required by NEC 2020. I’m doing it mainly for convenience of have some breakers outside to feed other things like a pool sub panel.
They are cheap. No one ever said I have to many spaces in the panel :)
Gotcha. Yea that's makes since know . Thanks
Can you tell me the part number of the meter base. That’s exactly what I want to do but can’t find a meter base.
I’m not sure what it is. It was provided by my power company.
What was the breaker panel model for the feed through? I cant seem to find it at homedepot
Nevermind found in comments. Thanks for the video!
copper even if it’s expensive Copper can take more load then aluminum and if you over bend aluminum it leaves hot zones in the cable also did you put penetrox on the lugs and open aluminum conductors ?
Sure, I agree. AL gets the job done for service conductors.
The cable and lugs I used did not require it per the manufacture. Modern aluminum wire and lugs do not need it.
How many Amp will be your main panel and your house subpanel?
Why not having three-phases?
I have 320 amp service to the property with 1 200 amp panel for the house and 1 200 amp panel for the shop.
I did not want the additional expense of 3 phase. I don’t think I will need that much power but who knows down the road.
3-phase is not a thing everywhere. Most of the US has "single" phase: a single phase 14kV goes down each street, with a special transformer for 1 to 3 houses making a split-phase so 125Vblack+125Vred makes 250V.
The middle of the secondary coil in the transfo is neutral, *and* gets grounded!!
Getting 3 phase down an ordinary street is a major upgrade back to the distribution line.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power
Can yo u list the part numbers of the Square D panels shown in this video Thanks!
Sure.
Outdoor feed-through: amzn.to/40UO1XM
Indoor Panel: amzn.to/3GC9NaB
@@Ciband Thank you very much! So the Square D panel can be used as a breaker for up to 16 breakers (8 doubles)? Did you end up using any of those circuit breaker slots or just feed the main panel? The link you provided was for a 200AMP with feed thru lugs.... I am going to have a 400A 1Ph service and then feed (2) 200A 120/240v breaker panels one for the 3000 S.F. house, one 200A for the Garage that has a bonus room above, and out of that panel feed a 100A Breaker Panel for my RV Building. Should I keep looking for the right 320/400 Meter Main? I found a Siemens MM0404l1400RLM 120/240 VAC 400Amp 1Phase 22kaA 3-wire 2 Circuit Ringless Meter main that I believe is what I may need? Of course my electrician will be the final decision maker. Link: www.1sourcedist.com/product/detail/5262145/siemens-mm0404l1400rlm
I can’t speak to the meter main as I don’t have a lot of experience on that but I think you are on the right track.
I am using 2 slots of the feedthrough panel for the surge protector for the house. I decided to put it there as close to the service entrance as possible. I have a matching one on the shop panel. I will probably add a generator back feed breaker and interlock kit there too, eventually.
Thanks for watching and good luck with your build.
@@Ciband As to your METER BASE with the DUAL LUGS did the POC give that to you or did have to purchase that 320 Meter base? If you have a part number of the Meter base I would like to have it from you --- I need to be able to have a DUAL LUG 320 continuous service meter base with dual lugs as I want also to to feed two 200 amp panels like you have done.
I do not have a part number, unfortunately.
This base was provided to me for “free” as a part of the install cost for the service from the power company.
How did you determine you needed a 320 amp service?
Thank you for this great video.
How come you don't need a ground wire in your shop's electrical panel?
My shops panel is a first disconnect so the neutrals and grounds are bonded together using the panel’s green bond screw.
@@Ciband It’s required to have separate neutral and grounds on your sub panel (you’ll need to buy ground bars that screw into Pre-designated on either side) and only for your feedthrough panel you would have neutrals and grounds tied together and your lighting rod/ground bar can connect it into the the Neutral bar in feedthrough panel
All subpanels are separated. This video shows two main panels which are both first disconnecting means, so they both get bonded.
Your panels are not bonded together with the pvc couplings. Should have a ground conductor.
There is a #6 bonding both panels and the ground rods. This is shown in later videos.
Could you please provide a part number for the Meter Base and the Feed Through Panel? I am doing 320amp as well but I have to supply my own meter base. Thanks!
For the meter can, I don’t have the part number and it is sealed now by the PoCo.
The feed through panel I’m using is a Square D Homeline.
Model is: HOM816M200PFTRB
I know they make a QO version if you want that upgrade.
Thanks for watching and I hope this helps.
@@Ciband Who is your PoCo? Sometimes they have the required equipment on their websites?
It is a local electric coop. Unfortunately they do not have the information on their website.
why you have 2 main panels? don't you have to ground at main panel to ground rod(s)?
For my 320 amp service, this is how it is wired.
I have the two main disconnect panels bonded to the ground rods and each other.
Nice video.. question.. What size wire did the electric company use for this service and was it aluminum?
Thank you for watching.
My PoCo ran 4/0 Triplex URD from the transformer. I was surprised by this as it has to carry the 320A service. They said that is what they do.
I know they don’t have to play by NEC rules so I assume it is ok for them. If my meter melts I guess we will know.
Thanks for the question.
@@Ciband they ran 350 kcml aluminum to my service do you think that's very comfortable with me running 320 continues or too small? Thanks
Bigger than 4/0 so I would say yes. Bigger doesn’t hurt.
@@Ciband ok so what do you think max amps for 350 kcmil aluminum?
From the chart I found from Cerrowire (which I assume is based on NEC) it is 250A @ 75C and 280A @ 90C. Not sure if they ran an HH rated conductor or not.
I honest don’t know how the PoCo determine this or not. I’m sure they have different guidelines. I would also believe that the NEC very much errs on the side of caution.
I wouldn’t worry. I’m not with my setup.
be sure and drive ground rods and ground the steel bldg to the panel. steel post or wood post? bond to the steel post
Looks like he's got both of the panels bonded. I would think that he would need to bond everything in the meter and separate the ground and neutral in both panels?
Wood post pole barn. No structural steel.
No bonding in the meter can provided by PoCo. Bonding done at the main panel(s).
@@Ciband where are you going to bond the grounding electrodes?
Main panels
Where did you buy the wire from?
Local supply house
What do you mean your not gonna use the ground wire?
If I remember correctly, I only needed 3 wire service cable since I was going from the meter to the first disconnect where the neutrals and grounds are bonded. I could only find 4 wire cable so I just bought it and did not use the ground wire.
Thanks for watching.
Who is your Utility? I am in the solar biz and would like to use these boxes
It is a local co-op here in Oklahoma called East Central Electric
My parents house is set up the same way with the external box next to the meter. They have 380 amp service and it was installed in '96. So what your power company did isn't nothing new.
No ground rods? Other than that installation looks clean. Check nec 250
There are ground rods, just detailed in another video.
when you said '2 phases', did you mean split phase where the phases are 180 degrees apart? (1:30)
Yes. Your “normal” residential 240v hot to hot service.
I was going to call that out also. This is only a single phase service.
Where is the disconnect for the warehouse/garage building? That outside panel is only disconnecting to the house .let me know if I'm wrong plz thanks
Garage disconnect is inside, back to back with the meter.
@@Ciband yes on the main breaker panel but I think I'm my state starting this year you have to have a disconnect outside near the meter... Again tell me if I'm wrong
I know NEC 2020 requires it on houses. Not sure if that applies to detached garages/shop buildings. I do not have an external disconnect for the shop building.
@@Ciband ok thank you very much for the info always learning
Nice job but I probably would have used some washers with screws in panel
Thank you for the tip. I would agree in hindsight.
Duct seal also always use duct seal in wet locations
Do you have a link to the 2nd box beside the meter box?
The feed through panel I’m using is a Square D Homeline.
Model is: HOM816M200PFTRB
I know they make a QO version if you want that upgrade.
@@Ciband thank you very much
Did you use the 83% rule? Since the entire load isn’t going to be out there?
Not specifically. Feeding a 200 amp OCPD panel with 4/0 AL seems to be code compliant for my application as far as I know.
Are you saying the 83% rules can’t / doesn’t apply due to the 320A service or the feed through panels on the house set of service feeders?
@@Ciband oh that’s right, it only applies to service entrance
Nice. Question and I’m a non electrician by the way. If I’m using a 2 gang meter socket and I want to feed 2 200 amps to 2 meters. Is 3/0 Cooper okay to wire to that meter socket or would I need 4/0 copper?
Double check the NEC tables but I think 3/0 copper is fine.
For 200 amp, you need 4/0 aluminum or 3/0 copper.
@@Ciband For service or feeder conductors, you can use 2/0 copper for 200 amps.
@@edwinlandy thats only for a dwelling
@@krakenwoodfloorservicemcma5975 it is a dwelling.
According to the nec, there must be a means of disconnecting be the panel, some part of the nec where it says it applies? My Ingles is not very good gracias
Yes there is but I do not know where in the code it is.
Jjjaa si tu ingles esta correcto es un remote building el disconect entra en vigencia en el year 23
Code service 230
I am about to do the same service.. can you tell me what the model Meter base you use? Thank you!
I don’t remember off the top of my head but I think I posted it in the comments to this video.
Look on you tube at the video of the guy that put in a 400 amp service. Notice he has 2- 2" PVC conduits in the trench.
Where were you required to bond the neutral wire to the ground electrode system?
Neutral and EGC are bonded at the each first disconnect (I have 2). From there I have the ground rods bonded to each panel ( panel -> panel -> rod -> rod)
@@Ciband thanks for the quick reply. That’s surprising that you could use the same ground electrodes for both panels the way you have wired!
As I stated in the video about it, this is what I think is correct based on my understanding of the code. I am not a pro. YMMV.
Ground rods are localized around a structure and thus all panels and sub panels at that structure should be bonded to them.
For my house, the panels there will bond to the house ufer. Those panels are sub panels from the panel at the other building. The EGC are all ultimately bonded together.
This creates a more equipotential ground plain in the dirt so there are is not a large voltage between the structures. This is at least how I understand it.
There are proper electricians that comment on the videos who could explain it better I’m sure.
You did a good job on the electrical install. But just curious. What does ciband stand for in your listed name ?
Thank you, and good question.
I’m a nerd so this was one of my first D&D character names. Since it has been my handle on the Internet and various games.
Thanks for watching.
Where are you located can you come to NC and install some service?
I cannot. I am not an electrician.
@@Ciband me either but still have to get it done and with the lack of professionals because of too much Govt regulation requirements and licensing we have no one in the area.
What's the benefit of having parallel mains versus 1 main and two subs?
Cheaper equipment I think.
1) The meter can was free to me so that helped the decision.
2) 400 disconnects seem to be quite pricey compared to a parallel meter can and “normal” 200A panels.
@@Ciband The main benefit of having a parallel feed is that instead of having one main panel, you now have two main panels and this affects your grounding systems requirements. I would not have used the feed through panel as the disconnect. Had you used a main disconnect, the panel you ran to your house would have been a main panel and your grounding system would be closer. You WILL have to run a copper ground from the disconnect to your house and that will probably cost more than the extra dollars for the disconnect.
@@qball3834 wrong on that he would still have to bond the disconnect and run the 4th wire, and not bond the other panel. Aground rod still has to be driven at the house
If I didn’t have a ufer at the house, then yes I would need a ground rod. I have a ufer so I did not drive any ground rods at the house.
@@thomasmarable6818 Not wrong at all. The fact that you now have to install an emergency disconnect between the can and the main service panel means that the disconnect is the first point of disconnect and therefore where ground and neutral are bonded together. ALL subsequent panels are subpanels and therefore are not to be bonded (neutral and ground) together.
Unless we are talking two different things here, this is the 2020 NEC required installation.
Very nice , stupid electrician must be mad to see it 😂
Did u remove your ground screw from the panel inside ???
No, the bonding screw is installed in both the pane on the inside and the first disconnect on the outside since the panels are paralleled.
@@Ciband so whenever you have panel in parallel you don’t have to remove the ground screw?
The bonding screw should only be in the first disconnect after the meter.
In the case of a 320/400/600 amp service that has parallel feeds, typically 2 or 3 200 amp panels, each of those panels is a first disconnect and would have the bonding screw.
Any panels downstream of those would be sub panels and have the bonding screw removed.
@@Ciband so you have 2 main disconnects, the one outside and the one inside? And it’s that fine code wise?
That’s correct. The outside disconnect will feed the house eventually.
Yes, as far as I am aware and have researched, this is how it should be done and is code compliant.
Ur bonding screw or some kinda bonding?
There is a bonding screw at the first disconnect panel for each “leg” of the 320amp service.
One is the main panel for the shop. The other is the feed through lug panel on the outside of the shop which will serve as a remote disconnect for the house.
I would have turned the panel over and fed from the bottom. Less mess to work around when making up the panel. Just a tip.
Clay ... many areas say "in at the top and out on the bottom" so you don't always have a choice to flip a panel.
@@rupe53 thats the problem with the nec. Its subject to interpretation by inspectors who couldn't wire up an outhouse.
@@clayadams2068 ... ya know, I have only seen an outhouse (ok, it was a plastic porto-san) wired one time in my life and that was about 40 years ago. It was actually the inspector's idea!
@@rupe53 exactly!
He could have only flipped the one on the inside, I left it just like he has it. Bending that wire at the bottom would have been a pain.
Bonding bushings ?
All pvc pipe so not required.
Where's the ground and ground nuts for your conduit?
Conduit is all PVC so no bond bushings required (as far as I know).
😬😬😬 I think you are wrong on that. I'm a commercial electrician and was just bending 3/4 emt today.( That's conduit). Look at my channel and see.
I think you should check your work and codes because there is no ground wire at all or even a ground bar to ground that box. You put a plastic bushing on your nipple but no ground bushing. You have a metal can and ridgid they are not PVC( that's plastic). I am concerned about the people who live or work there.
Space Dandy: Are you saying that PVC conduit requires a bond bushing? If so can you explain the best practices for this on how it is done. You would have to run a ground wire to connect the two bond bushings since PVC isn’t conductive. Would that violate the no parallel paths to ground rule (I think that is a rule)? My meter is bonded to the service equipment via the neutral. My meter has no place to land the ground.
Where are your grounding rods?
In the ground.
Joking aside I did a separate video on them. Just two ground rods near those panels.
Thank you
😳 I’m not an electrician myself but watch videos like this one so that maybe I can learn how to do simple stuff around the house and avoid paying someone $2,000.00 dollars in the NYC 🗽 Area just to move a meter from one spot to the other🙄. Savages 🤯🤯😠. And what I notice about this guy is that even though he admits he’s not an experienced electrician and that’s his first rodeo or one of his first, he’s very clean when it comes to doing his job. Might be the requirements in his state but in my state I’ve seen some horrible stuff such as “experienced”??? electricians using a number 10 wire to feed from the street to the meter on a two family house with at least 8 rooms including the basement; washer machine, dryer machine, electric kitchens and giant microwaves in the two floors that when you’re cooking you can not use the microwaves cuz the wire gets hot and supposedly has been approved by the city inspector🤔 so like I said it before I’m not an electrician but I believe that even a blind person with the minimum level of knowledge in electrical stuff can see the mistakes “experienced” or careless electricians I would say, can make.
How did you get the inspector to ok you not grouping the disconnects
No inspections in my county.
To my knowledge this is code compliant since the outside disconnect is for a different structure.
This guy just doesn't want to admit he messed up. And if it's like he said that the one outside is for another building then the one inside should have been installed outside.
If it's for a different structure it should have been installed on the other structure. Why would you mount a panel with branch circuit breakers on one building with the intention of feeding another building?
And service entrance conductors aren't fused so he should have used a meter base main disconnect with feed through lugs then mount the other panel on the building he said it was powering.
I very well might have messed up, but that is relative.
NEC 2020, this might not work and I might have to have two disconnects on the outside (one for the shop per NEC and one for my house per the AHJ since the meter is on the shop and not the house). While that is nice, it is complex and not something I want to do. When I eventually add solar I might add the disconnect to bring it up to NEC2020 but for now it works.
NEC 2014, this is where my area is for codes and as far as I know, my install is compliant.
The house does have a disconnect on its outside per NEC2020 so I am good there.
should not be running circuit wires through live portion of panel ???
I’m not sure what you are trying to say.
@@Ciband the top portion of panel in workshop is live . If you have to work on cables coming in top of panel you are working in a live section of the panel .I see that there are insulators covering the main lugs but that area should not be used for safety reasons ???
At the time of filming the PoCo had not set the meter so everything was cold.
@@Ciband but when the system is live you would be working in a live zone if changes had to be made ,otherwise work looks good Ken
Yes I am aware.
Thanks for watching.
Thanks for ur reply” helped me
No problem. Happy to help. Thanks for watching.
I didn't see any grounds??
I covered that in a follow on video.
help me out here! you have a 320A meter can with meter but you have 2-200 amp panels/service? that is 400 *1.25* demand factor...and you downsized the neutral in the garage panel, cant do that! Why did you chose AL over CU conductors for short runs when you have several hundred feet to run to the house. Saving pennies on your electrical service is not the place to save $. Did the inspector sign off on this install? Who did the original design?
I did the design.
No inspector. PoCo didn’t seem to mind.
Why pay 3x the cost when I don’t need to. I understand copper is better but aluminum works, is to code, and easy to swap should I ever need to.
Downsizing the neutral one trade size is pretty common, especially since the triplex I bought was setup that way. Thank don’t makes you feel better my shop will have a lot of 240v equipment. I’m sure if I did the load calculations I could go smaller, but MHF is cheap.
As far as 320amp (continuous) vs 400amp (peak), using a pair of 200a panels on this type of service is pretty common.
The service conductors from each “leg” on the meter are sized for 200a (4/0) so I’m pretty sure that is ok.
Thanks for the comments.
@@Ciband I am a retired electrical engineer with a Prof. Engineers license and I am studying for my electricians license. I found this post which i find interesting. I am going to use this case example to aid my study for the exam. I am not trying to be a smarty or do a gotcha...trying to learn from this.
I notice you use terms like "pretty common" and "pretty sure". Electrical installations and engineering are based on standards of engineering and safety codes. Just saying....
There is a reason why the neutral is sized the same as the ungrounded conductors (not wires). During a fault of line-to-line or line to ground the neutral is required to carry that current which can very high as in the tens of thousands of amps. They are called symmetrical and unsymmetrical faults. FYI. Grounding conductors bonded to the equipment is there to reduce the potential of the equipment to zero. This is why Table 250.66 allows for smaller grounded conductors.
Even though 240V equipment is used the neutral will carry some currents and is required to be the same size as the ungrounded conductors. I need to study this more. Chapter 2, Articles 220 and 230 deal mostly with SE conductors for housing while Chapter 4 (I am not there yet) will pertain more to your situation.
As for no inspector and it seems you are not "licensed" so IF something goes wrong such as a fire or an accident the insurance company will not be too friendly. IMO. This gives people like me a job...LOL.
The NFPA 70 (NEC) exists for a reason and should be followed, its all about safety for your shop.
I need to study this more but something is not right it seems. I hope you dont mind me examining this, others may learn as well.
Regards,
Ron / PE
I am all about learning. I appreciate the discussion. I’m a software engineer with some electronics background so I think I get your mindset.
For sufficient 240v equipment, you can downsize the neutral. If there is a ground fault, that runs through the EGC not the neutral, until get gets back to the first disconnect where they are bonded, or at least that is my understanding. For a dead short then it’s just the two hots touching and then no neutral is involved.
In reality this shop will not see a constant neutral load that will even approach maxing out a 2/0 AL.
@@Ciband the EGC is not intended for fault currents....currents always return to their source and the EGC is a high impedance path.
@@jstone1211 Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) - A conductive path that is part of an effective ***ground-fault*** current path and connects normally non-current-carrying metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded conductor (service neutral conductor) or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both.
Why aluminum wire?
It is cheaper and perfectly adequate for the job, both electrically and code compliant.
AL service entrance wire is very common in my area.
So that's the meter base the power company provided? Good for you! Now it's on them. If they provided you with a 320 amp meter base then they must know the lugs and clear space in that can will accommodate their wires coming in and your wires going out. But they can't come in the bottom like you piped for them. Did they say they were coming into the meter base through the bottom.? Line an load on a meter base cannot share the same space. They have to come outside on the left to the line side lugs on the meter socket. It looks small, but they provided it. It's on them if it's wrong. They're gonna get out of it though by telling you your pipe job causes their wires to cross yours and that's unacceptable and their wires
have to be totally independent of your wires so you will have to re-pipe up the side of the can and install a big lb or weather proof box nippled into the meter can. I'd like to see the size of wire they are bringing in to feed the line side of the meter. It will be aluminum tri-plex. They will use whatever will fit regardless of how much current you need. They are exempt from following the NEC. I'm surprised they arentbring the service wire in a conduit. Usually when you use direct bury cable that's not in pipe you have to provide a substantial sand base and substantial sand covering then you can fill in with dirt. But that's not NEC. That's what we use in my area, which is a lot of work for residential so we use 3" conduit as required by our local utility.
Bracketry-new word
What State was this ?
Oklahoma
You may want to look into up sizing the conductors to your future house to compensate for voltage drop.
I appreciate the idea.
I ran the voltage drop calculations and they came back good for 3% drop on 200A at a max distance of around 150ft IIRC so I should be good. House distance is less than that.
No ground?
Not at the meter can. GECs are running from the two main panels to the two ground rods and bonded in between.
@@Ciband you used only one rod for both panels?
Two rods for the shop building. Both panels bonded to both rods.
Good but that's is 130/240v residential ' I'm looking for 800S busses yap box 4 wire
You used a 4/0 aluminum from transformer to meter? For 400?amp?
The electric company did. Not my call and not the NEC so I have no idea how their rules work.
As per NEC section 220.61 (C) (1), there shall be no reduction of the neutral or grounded conductor capacity applied to Any portion of a three-wire circuit consisting of two ungrounded (hot) conductors and the neutral conductor of a three-phase, four-wire, wye-connected system. The outside panel as you describe is a required disconnect. NEC Article 230.70 (A) states that a disconnecting means for the main service must be located either outside or inside the building nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. This panel with the pass through lugs is very useful. But your house panel is not required to be a subfeed panel where you can save a few bucks on a forth conductor.
I am not on a 3 phase system Wye system. Standard split phase residential, 3 wire, not 4 wire.
The first disconnecting means is where the neutral and EGC are bonded. From there all feeds outward are sub panels, regardless of physical location. I believe an older version of NEC allowed feeders between buildings to be 3 wire but this is not so now. I think it changed in 2011 or 2014.
@@Ciband yes you are on a three wire system. I know for certain the PoCo xfmer is wye connected. The code is pretty clear and based on the date of this install you cant go my 2011 or 2014 requirements. I am looking at 2017 and 2020 code requirements. You most likely will get by with no issues but when you post a vid people will hold you to the code...you dont get to make the rules based on assumptions....
@@Ciband yes you are not 3PH because then you could reduce your neutral by 0.83....you are confusing terms
If the load calc shows enough across the line loads, then reducing the nuetral is allowed somewhere in the code? Not on three phase, not on lighting panels especially with non linear loads. 3 phase lighting dedicated panels-think warehouse or airport, may need a bigger nuetral due to triplen harmonics on ballasts. This install will probably get an air compressor, lift, a/c, welder. All across the line loads. House has water heaters, stoves, central ac. So reducing the nuetral works.
Kick ass
Thank you
Technically, it is single phase. Not phase 1 and phase 2.
Yes, that is correct.
NEC 70 requires Service Entrance Disconnect that’s why…
and hope you didnt drive that right middle screw into that b phase feeder lol
😮that would not be permitted in Germany, such a system would be brought into the building then it is protected against rain and wind and against unauthorized persons inside building, and then it would be in an extra room with a door that could be locked
not required by the NEC.. to make a two lines from one port.. just saying
I’m not sure I understand what is not required by the NEC. Would you mind clarifying? I am curious. Thank you.