In Which Panel are the Neutral and Ground Bonded?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 лют 2022
- Siemens PN3048L1200C PN Series 200 Amp 30-Space 48-Circuit Main Lug Plug-On Neutral Load Center Indoor with Copper Bus, Grey: Amazon: amzn.to/3sKZv03
Siemens PN4040L1200C PN Series 200 Amp Space 40-Circuit Main Lug Plug-On Neutral Load Center Indoor with Copper Bus, Grey: Amazon: amzn.to/353T3ZP
Siemens PN3048B1200C PN Series 200 Amp 30-Space 48-Circuit Main Breaker Plug-On Neutral Load Center Indoor with Copper Bus, Grey: Amazon: amzn.to/3Ictepv
To compete to enter the contest next year: www.idealind.com
IDEAL Electrical 45-615 Reflex Super T Stripper - 8-18 AWG, Yellow, Wire Stripper with Thumb Rest, Plier Nose, Slide Lock, Textured Grips: Amazon: amzn.to/4afSRn5
IDEAL INDUSTRIES 45-112 Forged Heavy-Duty Dual NM Wire Stripper: Amazon: amzn.to/3xePsWZ
IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. 35-075 Twist-a-Nut Conduit Deburring Tool w/Square Tip: Amazon: amzn.to/4cBFpM2
Also see: Playlist: Electrical Wiring by Sparky Channel: • Electrical Wiring by S...
Playlist: EMT Bending by Sparky Channel: • EMT Bending by Sparky ...
Playlist: 2023 NEC Video Playlist by Sparky Channel: • 2023 NEC Video Playlis...
Playlist: IDEAL National Championship Competition Videos from Sparky Channel: • IDEAL National Champio...
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.
Wiha 28792 Insulated Torque Screwdriver Set, 18 to 62 in-lb: Amazon: amzn.to/36liLou
Wera 05074712001 Kraftform 7447 Hexagon Torque Screwdriver, 1/4" Head, 25.0-55.0"/lbs Variable Torque Adjustment Range: Amazon: amzn.to/2Flio1f
ACDelco ARM601-3 3/8" Digital Torque Wrench (2 to 37 ft-lbs.), with Buzzer & LED Flash Notification - ISO 6789 Standards with Certificate of Calibration: Amazon: amzn.to/2ttNEsf
CARBYNE 7 Piece Extra Long Hex Bit Socket Set - SAE, S2 Steel Bits | 3/8" Drive, 1/8 inch to 3/8 inch: Amazon: amzn.to/2ZPJvLp
ARES 70281-5/16-Inch Extra Long Hex Bit - S2 Bit Provides Greater Torque - Precisely Machined Hex Bit Ends with 3/8-Inch Drive Heat Treated Chrome Vanadium Steel Sockets: Amazon: amzn.to/2QhzpQg
Craftsman Evolv 7 Piece Hex Bit Socket Set (SAE): Amazon: amzn.to/2sGAKas
2020 NEC Article 110.14(D) Terminal Connection Torque (With Examples): • Video
Neiko 10072A 3/8" Drive Extra Long Allen Hex Bit Socket Set, SAE, 1/8" - 3/8" | S2 & CR-V Steel, 7Piece Set: Amazon: amzn.to/2FgSdsM
Neiko 10288A Master Hex Bit Socket Set, 32 Piece | S2 Steel Machined Bits | Standard SAE and Metric Sized Sockets | 1/4", 3/8", & 1/2" Drives: Amazon: amzn.to/35l897I
Neiko 01137B 1/2” Drive Allen Bit Socket Set, SAE Hex Driver, 1/4” to 3/4” | 8-Piece Set, Cr-Mo, Impact Grade, One-Piece Construction, 3-Inch Length: Amazon: amzn.to/36jr0BJ
14 Pc Extra Long Hex Bit Sockets Allen Wrench Mm+SAE: Amazon: amzn.to/2QicCDU
Wiha 28791 8 Piece Insulated Slotted and Phillips Torque Screwdriver Set 10-50 in-lbs.: Amazon: amzn.to/2ZKZday
Wiha Tools 28792 Insulated Slotted, Phillips, Xeno, Torx & Square Torque Control Set - 16 Piece: Amazon: amzn.to/36f1bm9
Wiha 28595 Torque Screwdriver and Bits Box Set 10-50 in-lbs., 53 Pieces: Amazon: amzn.to/35kxbnI
Wiha 28589 Torque Control Set, Accurate Torque 1 to 50 Inch-Pounds, 59 Piece: Amazon: amzn.to/2QiA57Z
Milwaukee M12 FUEL™ 3/8" Digital Torque Wrench w/ ONE-KEY™ Bare Tool: Acme Tools: shrsl.com/217xh
M12 FUEL™ 3/8 in. Digital Torque Wrench with ONE-KEY™ Kit: Acme Tools: shrsl.com/217z1
Amazon Prime Student 6 month Free Trial: amzn.to/2J4txZw
Audible Gift Membership: amzn.to/31Oxb08
The video was taken with the: Panasonic LUMIX GH5 4K Digital Camera, 20.3 Megapixel Mirrorless Camera with Digital Live MOS Sensor, 5-Axis Dual I.S. 2.0, 4K 4:2:2 10-Bit Video, Full-Size HDMI Out, 3.2-Inch LCD, DC-GH5 (Black): Amazon: amzn.to/36pfmu1
Saramonic UwMic9 96-Channel Omnidirectional UHF Wireless Lavalier Microphone System Two Transmitters and One Receiver for Nikon Canon Sony DSLR Cameras, for Video, Field Recording,Interview, ENG, TV: Amazon: amzn.to/2Kc5qWe
This video was made using the: Transcend 64GB Class 10 SDXC Flash Memory Card (TS64GSDXC10E): amzn.to/1w02Oxn
Bill and sparkychannel.com are participants in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com
Best, best UA-cam video about this electrical topic ever. Easy to understand and your videos are above the top. You are really one of a kind with your videos. Awesome video and keep it strong Bill! Amazing work and awesome video! Nobody out beats Sparky Channel!
Thanks so much!
@@SparkyChannelhello just get a 200 amp over head meter. Then out of the meter hit the transfer switch! With 4/0 4/0 2/0. On the face of the transfer switch make a label saying (EMERGENCY DISCONNECT NOT A SERVICE DISCONNECT) out of your transfer switch go to your in door panel that a 200 amp main breaker with also 4/0 4/0 2/0. Then in that panel you can bond the neutral and you’re grounded electro together.
Yes Mr. Sparky, this was another excellent presentation. I am a retired electrician and I really enjoy watching and learning all of the things I have forgotten over the years! When I watch these videos, I feel like putting on my old electrician's tool belt and go back to wiring a building! I am in my seventy's, but I still remember with fondness the days when I was a practicing electrician. Thank you!
Thank you for your service to all of the people that you helped with electrical projects!
Thanks for the Decals. Appreciate and support your channel 100%. Lots of helpful info. Thanks for your dedication Bill.
My pleasure! Thanks!
the best way to remember is it gets bonded at the FIRST point of disconnect. in that instance, they would be bonded at the meter-main and at the generator. (the generator is bonded at the factory)
Thanks Ken! Excellent point about the generator too.
@@SparkyChannel one of the biggest headaches on service work is when a service has to be converted to meter main and the original electrician put neutral and ground on the same busbars. I was trained to always have neutral and ground on separate bars, so if they needed to be separated, the bonding jumper could be removed.
I was going to mention the generator -- a permanent install should have it's own ground rod. Previous versions of the NEC explicitly said "at the first disconnecting means", but they've been tossing mud in those waters for years.
@@kenbrown2808 Indeed. I get yelled at by people who insist this is a legal (mis)use of the code. NEVER mix neutrals and grounds; they are NOT the same thing... do not put them on the same bar(s).
@@jfbeam actually, I won't put a generator on a separate grounding electrode system, because that produces the potential for stray voltage in the grounded conductor. had a lineman tell me about running into that, and it took two weeks for me to figure out how it was happening.
Ground and neutral are bonded in the main panel only. Because if you bond them in the sub panel, ground is equivalent to neutral, they split the load. Where ground is normally a protection from stray charge.
Good explanation thanks
Which panel is the main panel?
No, first means of disco.
Great info Sir . The addition of the transfer switch and the switched meter box definitely made me think. Appreciate all your videos.
LOL! I do throw curve balls once in a while to keep everyone thinking. I love it when there is lots of electrical discussion going on in the comment section. We all learn that way, especially me.
It helped me understand when I learned about TN-C-S service connections on the British electrical channels. The neutral and ground (grounding electrode at transformer) are combined on the single conductor from the transformer but must be separated at the very first instance possible, which is at the first disconnect to ensure any ground fault is cleared by that disconnect or downstream breaker and not dependent upon blowing the transformer fuse. And you never let the grounded wire (neutral) and grounding wire (ground) be combined again because that creates parallel circuits and if the grounding wire was broken for some reason, everything it was bonded to downstream from the break would be live waiting for someone to make a human connection across the break.
Excellent, well stated! Thanks JK!
I am learning! Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Glad to hear it!
Really enjoy the videos with direct references to code.
Thanks Gary!
Great video and explanation. Thank you. 😃👍
Welcome!
Yes, that is what Hector said, neutral and ground should be back at the meter.
Right now I don't have ground connected anywhere in the house, transfer switch, it new panel.
Thanks, Bill! Nice video as always.
Thanks Tim!
would super appreciate it if you do more grounding based videos , such as for transformers or generators or two dwelling units within the same lot. i dunno. anything grounding. thanks sparky
I'll see what I can do, thanks!
I have a question in order to clear up some confusion that I have (and also caused by statements that others have posted in the comment section).
(I am not a licensed electrician, but I have worked with electricians on many residential projects.)
I fully understand that the bonding of neutral and ground takes place at the [meter box] main service disconnect box. I am assuming here in this video that the main ground wire going to the grounding rod(s)) is also at the main service disconnect box [meter box]. 1st question is: would the bonding of the neutral and ground still take place at the main service disconnect box [meter box] if the main grounding wire to the ground rod(s) was at the breaker panel box? (Copper ground wire attached from grounding bar in the breaker panel box and running down to the ground rod).
My 2nd question: …is there a time when you would have a ground wire running from the ground bar in the main service disconnect box [meter box] down to the ground rod AND ALSO another ground wire running from the ground bar in the breaker panel box down to a separate ground rod?
Thank you
Can you do a video on what a separately derived system is and what makes it separate.
Just means it has its own ground reference. It is "deriving" its voltage from its own zero-volt potential point. So for example, a generator with its own ground rod where the transfer switch also switches the neutral
What enclosure should the water bonding come from?
Should pull that green bonding screw out of the can so no other handy person attempting to do electrical work, tightens that screw and illegally bonds the system
Extremely well written. It should of been stated. Is the panel with the breakers in it
NO LONGER BONDED because it is no longer the first point after the meter?
@@tedlahm5740 This has a meter combined with a main breaker. See 250.24 (B) at 2:49 This is where the bonding occurs and it can't be bonded at the MLO or anywhere else. See 250.24 (A) (5) at 4:20
I agree.
Thank you for this video.
No problem, thanks!
Can you connect the wire from the ground rod to the meter/main box itself or does it have to go to a terminal with the main neutral wire?
Great education video.
Thanks.
Thanks Tommy!
Sparky: Kindly do a video on NEC Neutral to Earth Voltage on the distribution system. Thank you.
Where I live there is not a main breaker on outside of buildings, they are in the panel with the other breakers. In your scenario is the panel box acting as a subpanel since the main breaker is in upstream panel?
The panel in this case is correctly called a Main Lug Only load center.
Thank for clear all the doubts about electric code
No problem, thanks!
Exactly, the first means of disconnect and in this case the meter can (Milbank)
@@MrTom38ncalif Yes, you are correct!
What about no myers hub on the top conduit between the ATS and Load Center
Isn’t the main disconnect metallically connected to the middle panel, with the bus bars, via the metallic 2 inch pipe, so therefore grounding the middle panel, in all practicality, would also ground the first panel.
Lightning does not like to change directions, and as we know is capable of ionizing the air as a current path. So we have to imagine how a lightning event may enter the main service panel, and if so where does it go?
Well, it wants to return (cloud to ground) to the earth (polarity wise we have cloud to earth or earth to cloud) by the shortest path based on conductivity. So, I think, ideally the grounded conductor (white) center tap of the service transformer (which is also earthed at the pole, US AC distribution) can be considered a primary candidate for a lightning event. As such, the earthing of the main service should be directly below the main service panel, and not jogged through the remote breaker load center. Also, if we look at the mast itself, as shown in the video, to me it makes more sense if the mast, mast head are made of a conductive metal and not plastic. It can serve as a lightning rod which could route lightning energy directly from the mast trough the main service panel enclosure to earth without finding its way into subsequent load centers and branch circuits.
Nothing in this world will protect you from lighting.
Yea, what the heck is this guy saying lol
Great thanks, I'm a GC here in California and only do limited electrical work on my own mostly simple repairs and running some circuits. I have been taking your quizzes and enjoying them immensely. So far my scores have been around 95% which is why I'm not sparky but still always learning. Thanks again for the lessons
William, I think it is fantastic that you wish to improve your electrical knowledge while being a GC. You guys have so much to know with all of the trades. That's great!
Here's a good one, I have a Manufactured home. It has a meter on the outside of the home, with a separate in line disconnect below it. The main panel also has a service disconnect. I haven't removed the dead front yet. But if I were a betting man I'd say the neutral and ground are bonded in that main panel. What happens in this instance?
I plan on updating the the house electrically. First step is all outlets with TR commercial grade outlets because all current outlets are sketchy backstab ones. I would also like to do AFCI / GFCI combo breakers for any circuits that feed outlets.
According to my understanding of current code, because of the outside disconnect any neutral and ground would be bonded at this location. This would mean that the inside panel should not have the bonding screw installed.
Even so, I would agree with you in that I would also not be surprised if the neutral and ground were bonded in your inside panel.
As far as you asking what happens in this instance, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for.
If the inside panel is bonded in addition to being bonded at the exterior disconnect, there is the potential for the inside panel to become energized if a problem occurs on a branch circuit.
You would be wise to replace all the old stabbed back receptacles. I can't count the number of these receptacles I've seen fail because of how many times they got to hot over the years of being used. The plastic becomes brittle and eventually falls apart. I totally expect to see stab back outlets become outlawed at some point.
@@MicahFunk I appreciate your time.
@@bwats1991 you're welcome. 😀
I have a single phase 200 amp Square D outdoor weatherproof disconnect. It has a three space neutral Lug right next to the green grounding bonding screw that I installed. I understand I need to bond my grounds and my neutrals together because it is the first means of disconnect (AKA MAIN PANEL) and installing the green screw bonds the neutrals to the actual metal disconnect/ground. My question is do I need to install a separate lug for my ground wire on the actual metal part of the disconnect or since they gave me a 3 space lug neutral can I simply install my grounds and my neutrals in that three spaced lug they provided?
I would say absolutely one hundred percent yes because it has to be bonded. But again do I have to install a separate lug to the actual metal back of the disconnect (AKA GROUND) isolated from the neutral LUG? Or can I just simply install my ground and my neutral in the three space lug they provided?
Thanks!
The nuetral and ground in this enclosure are one in the same...
Great vid. How is the transfer switch grounded / bonded? And is the neutral switched or contiguous from the transfer switch to the MLO??? Thanks.
Hard to tell from these shots but looks like the transfer switch is non neutral switching? In which case it is nonseparately derived. So no ground-neutral bond.
Thanks! The Kohler generator is bonded at the factory and it is non neutral switching.
Hey Bill.
I love your channel. I have been watching your videos for a few months and I wish I found your channel earlier.
I was wondering about two topics. Do you have a video about the best gear and tools to have in the field? Or at least to start with. I see your tools you have listed, but I don’t know if I need all the ones listed. I do remodeling and do most of the trades. I would love your opinion on the best multi meter, standard electric tester, continuity testers, etc. I am willing to spend money but maybe not extremely high end.
Also, do you have a video about wiring a three way light system where the power leg, light leg, and 3 wire are on one switch, and the other switch is just one 3 wire? The light is just one single 2 wire. I have seen this while remodeling. Maybe it is incorrect.
See: How To Wire a 3-Way Switch System: ua-cam.com/video/cOFKnAGOPg4/v-deo.html
and: Sparky Channel's Favorite Tools House Renovation Series : ua-cam.com/video/g6FPWBZyEe8/v-deo.html
Thanks a lot for your response. That favorite tool video was perfect. I wish the Fluke multi meter was more affordable, but you get what you pay for.
I still have some things that I am not fully understanding with the ways I find some old 3 way switches wired, but that 3 way switch video, and your whole 3 way switch series of videos are extremely helpful. You make electrical a lot easier to understand.
@@TeddyBaseball Excellent, glad I could help!
if there is no disconnect at the meter enclosure, can you use the transfer switch as your main disconnect and do the ground and neutral bonding there??
No, because there is no service disconnect in this ATS.
My inspector says "at the first point of disconnect"
I don't like that green screw sitting in the hole waiting to be tightened up by some homeowner.
The QO panels ship with the screw uninstalled.
Agreed
"At the first point of disconnect" is a simplified version of 250.24 (B).
I agree about removing the green screw.
@@greganliker201 Hi Greg! How are you my friend?
I remove the bonding screw, if it is not used. but where I am, meter mains are avoided, so the bonding screw is used more than not.
question: From the picture it appears your ground bus bar in the 2nd panel(interior) is mounted and touching the enclosure? Are you saying it shouldn't?
I think the "grounded conductor" he's speaking of is another term for the white neutral wire. The "grounding conductor" or "equipment ground" is the green/bare equipment ground wire.
What if the meter and the main disconnect are in separate enclosures; then is it proper to bond at the meter enclosure?
No.
In my area, we are allowed to get homeowner permits for doing wiring. I should specify, the homeowner and only the homeowner can redo the wiring. My grandparent's farmhouse was given to me when they passed. So I am redoing it to remove the old groundless wires for new as I am remodeling the home.
This comes to my question. Our farmyard has a main breaker. It turns off the main shop, storage buildings, a few barns, and the old farmhouse. Because we have that single main in the middle of the farmyard, when I put in the new updated main panel in the house, I would keep the grounds and neutrals separate and not use the bonding screw. Correct?
Why should a permit be required for a home owner to work on their own home?
@@thomaswayneward I think you misread. It’s a homeowner permit for wiring. As in, a permit to do your own wiring and get it inspected for a DIYer. With that specific permit the homeowner and only the homeowner can do the major electrical work.
@@prairiefarmer5994 No, I didn't misread. Why should the State require you to pay a fee and be inspected by the State? I like freedom. In Texas you can build you own home in most counties there are no inspections of any kind. that is the way it should be. You are brainwashed and don't even know it.
@@thomaswayneward why exactly are you on this channel if you think it’s brainwashing to get a home inspected as it’s being built? Lmao
Your understanding is correct. You will need a grounding electrode conductor (comprised of one or more ground rod(s), UFER, ground ring, etc.) at every other building or structure, but that GEC should bond everything "likely to become energized" except the neutral conductor. The only place the neutral and ground bond together is at the main. Any other scenario causes neutral current to flow on the metal parts of the facility's electrical system that are not intended to normally carry current, creating an electrical hazard.
Hey Sparky! Nice video. Isn't the generator a "separately derived system", and should its neutral and EGC be bonded at its first disconnect means, i.e., at its transfer panel, providing of course that the transfer switch also switches the utility-side and generator-side neutrals.
Hi Joseph! Excellent question. The generator had its own 70A disconnect so the grounding and bonding for that power source would have to occur at the generator, not at the ATS. The generator comes bonded from the factory. Also, the transfer switch was only breaking the 2 hot phase conductors, not the neutral.
@@SparkyChannel Whoa! In this situation, you would have two bonding points. (the utility disconnect and the generator bonding point, since there is no switching of the neutrals.) Isn't that a no no?
A generator as a separately derived system must have a bonded neutral and access to a GES. Services must only be bonded at one location, either the generator, on a separatly derived system, or on the utility side. A switched neutral transfer switch would be required to accomplish this. A genset usually has an indication if it factory wired as a floating neutral or a bonded neutral.
You can also ring it out and check. On ben sahlstroms channel he had a cheap Chinese generator that said it was factory bonded but when he rang it out it was floating neutral.
If you look at the transfer switch at 2:47 you can see the neutral is NOT switched, only the hots.
Mr. Sparky elaborates and states there are SEPERATE ground and neutral BARS in the transfer sw.
This is also why the generator comes factory bonded.
Large commercial generators usually switch the neutrals in my limited experience and must have ground rods driven etc.
One extremely important aspect of this you did not point out is when to bond the neutral at the transfer switch. If the generator shares a neutral with the utility service, as shown in your video, then no, the neutral won’t be bonded to ground in the ATS. But if the neutral is switched along with the phase conductors, the generator is a separately derived system; and in that case, the generator neutral must be bonded to ground in the ATS.
So if I'm only switching the current carrying conductors then I only need to run a neutral from the disconnect neutral buss to the transfer switch neutral buss? Also does anyone know a good way to install a transfer switch with a combination meter/disconnect?
@@lauratanner8475 the neutral is a current carrying conductor.
@@RB-xv4si ah....I should have said if I'm only switching the phase conductors and not the neutral.
@@lauratanner8475 you will need to run both the generator neutral and utility neutral to the transfer switch. The neutral not being switched means that you will not bond neutral to ground in the transfer switch.
@@RB-xv4si thank you for the info. That was how I was thinking it should be but nice to have confirmation. I have a generator with ATS to install on an existing service. The only thing is that they've used a combination meter/disconnect with with circuits being fed from the disconnect buss. I see no elegant way of doing it besides adding another disconnect and moving the circuits to it and treating the combo meter/disconnect as basically just a meter. The only thing is if the breaker in that box is shut off or tripped the generator will activate. I don't know yet which way to proceed. Might end up steering clear of this one
Hey Bill, so I am at an impasse with the local utility company. They supply the meter base and then you have to install your panel, but they want the meter base to have the EGC and then take it to the panel, but that goes against what I know and what you state here. It leads to the meter base and the main panel being bonded, creating a parallel neutral. Should I whack them over the head or just go with it? I wish they supplied a 200 amp disconnect in the meter base like you show. That would simplify it. Thanks again Bill!
Hi! Does your meter base have a disconnect? The EGC goes to the first panel of disconnect.
@@SparkyChannel Sorry, I was a bit long winded. No, the meter base does not have a disconnect so that's why their utility spec sheet is at odds with the NEC. I spoke with the engineers and they said they weren't sure, but to follow the NEC, so I just ran the EGC into the Main panel and only have the two hots and the GEC coming from the meter into the panel. The grounding lug in the meter base I just left empty. Because it's on a metal building and the box is bonded with neutral and has watertight EMT between the meter and panel, it's all technically bonded with ground anyways, but no specific wire connecting the two to ground.
@@MyFortressConstruction I agree with the engineer, just follow NEC. If you get flunked by your AHJ make him show you what NEC code you violated. If he can't show the problem in the NEC he'll have to take the flunk back.
@@SparkyChannel Thanks Bill. The funny thing is that it's the trenching crew (Not electricians) that is going to verify if their meter is correct, and they go off the AHJ spec sheet, which is at odds with the NEC! LOL. We will see...
@@ElementFreedive Don't know yet. They have set the transformer but they haven't given a date to trench to the meter yet. I'll try to remember to post back when it happens. Seems like everything is taking months nowadays...
I'm grounding everything, everywhere. Neutrals as well.
youre doing the opposite of what you think youre doing
Well said!!!!
The instructions for the Generac Transfer switch say the neutral and ground are to be bonded together in that transfer panel. However in my last instal there was a neutral to ground bond in the meter panel with a 200 amp breaker just as in this video. There is a 200 amp breaker in the Transfer switch as well. I always went by the first disconnect rule for bonding them together. So are the instructions wrong? Isn't the first point of disconnect the transfer switch when the generator is providing power?
This is a good question
Well that's a good question. But I wonder, does the transfer switch transfer the neutral? Or is the generator neutral (groundED conductor) always connected with the service entrance neutral? (i.e. does it just transfer the two hots, or all three conductors?)
Seems like the generator would have to have it's own grounding electrodes?
I've installed quite a few with pretty much your exact situation. The bonding jumper that bonds the neutral busbar(grounded conductor) to the enclosure is removable and should be removed. This creates an insulated neutral and takes care of the requirement that Bill explained in the video. The reason the instructions say that they are to be bonded is that it is a Service Rated ATS and as such, the typical application calls for them to be bonded.
@@mikefochtman7164 Typical installs of residential air-cooled standby gensets are Non-separately derived systems. The ATS only switches the ungrounded(hot) conductors. The grounded(neutral) conductor is bonded only at the service disconnect(s) and nowhere else. Hence, an EGC is required to bond the chassis of the genset.
@@matthewrichards5941 Guess I'll have to go back and read more about 'separately derived' and 'non-separately derived'. But thanks.
Guess I'm a bit confused by use of the term 'bonded' here. When I think of 'bonding', I think of like tying all the metal parts of a hot-tub together and tying that in to the 'Equipment Grounding Conductor'. So the MLO appears to be 'bonded' to me in that it has a nice fat green wire tying it's ground bars and case back to the service entrance. I understand the neutral and ground ('grounded conductor' and 'equipment grounding conductor') are NOT connected inside the MLO, but seems the MLO is still 'bonded'.
Or is 'bonded' here mean only that you've connected GC and EGC together inside the panel?
Yes, bonding means that you've connected GC and EGC together inside the panel.
Different scenario: Subpanel in a separate garage building. Assuming that the subpanel gets bonded to a separate EGC and the ground from the main panel is run, *but not connected* to the subpanel, it's just capped off inside.
I could even envision not running a ground between buildings. The question is also about conductive conduit between buildings.
Subpanels with more than one circuit in a detached building require 4 wires and their own grounding rods. The only exception to grounding rods is 250.32(A) that allows for running a single circuit without installing ground rods.
Is it legal running the sub feed through the panel to the transfer switch? Wouldn't that be using the panel as a raceway? Shouldn't a ground passing through any metal junction or pull box be bonded to that enclosure?
312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors. No violation if the article is followed. EGC for the subpanel and ATS are bonded at the the Service Disconnect neutral bar.
From what I could see, there were two EGCs entering the MLO. One passes-thru to the transfer switch, but the other terminates at the grounding bus in the MLO. So the panel is bonded properly (IMHO)
It is perfectly acceptable to use a panel as a raceway, contrary to the tribal knowledge I have heard in my career. The conductors passing through one panel to feed another could represent a bit of a safety risk in some cases, but not this one, which is pretty straight-forward. If the main is LOTO, and the generator is LOTO, then the panel can be serviced safely.
What I don’t understand is that even though the neutral and ground bars in a subpanel may be physically “separate,” aren’t they still technically “bonded” at the subpanel by virtue of being screwed in to the same metal case (the subpanel) through their metallic mounting screws? The metal screws mounting them both in the same subpanel would put them at the same electrical potential, thus “bonding” them regardless, no?
neutral bar is insulated between the shell, the green bonding screw is what threads direct from bus to shell, bonding the neutral bar
I have one for you: In a 240 vac 30 amp circuit using #10 conductors can you use lighter gauge conductors to wire in permanent kilowatt and hour meter gauges to keep track of equipment. The gauges need their power supply from the 240 vac circuit but come wired with #22 gauge leads. They don't carry any load but are just measuring and keeping totals. Thanks. Good presentation of well thought out videos.
Yes it will be fine. If you have ever seen any of these new CT meters you’ll see let’s say 350kcm for example in the cabinet going to the main disconnect. The meter is connected to the ct cabinet and connected to the lugs with 12 wire and it works fine because there’s no load on its end and all it’s doing is giving data back to the power company. Similar concept to what your dealing with.
@@fordsbetter3496 Thanks. That was what I was thinking but wasn't sure if the code dealt with it. Thanks for the reply.
Technically, any permanent wire that leaves the box should be able to carry the full current from the breaker it's wired to, and should have enough capacity to trip the breaker if shorted.
It might be best to keep that stuff inside the box or use inductive types that don't physically connect, wireless versions, etc. You could also terminate to a 30 amp outlet and monitor there, but light wiring isn't even recommended for plugging into high capacity circuits. You could also add the monitor to some 30a appliance internally. There just isn't an ideal way to do it because light wire will never be protected or safe on high current circuits.
In old houses with old wiring, I'm fine putting 8 or 10 amp breakers on outlets. People should not be drawing over 800 watts on old wiring IMO. Asking for trouble.
Sparky where is the circuit breaker panel? Is that NOW NOT BONDED with this new system
of disconnect outside for the fire department?
It's the MLO. See 1:13 Correct, the MLO is not bonded in this case.
Look at 4:00 and 5:10. One diagram has 2 grounds cables in the middle box and then you see the second ground cable missing....
Sparky, So the main lug panel in the middle and the right panel needs to have ground bars added and the neutral should not be connected to the ground cable from the grounding rod. Also, why is a ground going directly from the meter to the middle box instead of middle box to the right box? If I understand correctly, the meter is feeding first the right panel then going back into the middle main lug panel???
Routing the ground like that is fine, it doesn't have to follow the feeders like that lol
Always ground net. At first means of disconnect. Which is 99% of time in meter can or first. Panel there after.
Correct.
My house has a meter in the outside and the main panel inside. My electrician did not bond the main panel inside (that’s where i have the main breaker) because he said the neutral is already bonded to ground at the meter. Does this sound accurate or do I need a second opinion? I am no electrician but I have seen many videos about this topic and I have never heard of that setup that my electrician explained.
Ok so as long as the main meter box is bonded to ground I can connect neutral and ground to the same buss bar? And also don't put green screw to not confuse ppl?
if your meterbase has a disconnect means then you are to separate neutral and ground. If no disconnect at meter then first panel is neutral/ground bonded with the green screw.
I agree, the green bonding screw should be removed. The neutral has it's own lugs in the meter socket disconnect but those lugs are bonded to the EGC and to the enclosure.
@@FixthisCD electricians in my area FL tells me that you only bond in one place, so in your example you would be bonded at two places then, in meter and service enclosure. This is the question i had for days that no one seems to give a straight answer to. If my meter is bonded to neutral and ground and has EMT going to the main panel, why do i need to also bond the main panel? doesn’t that create parallel paths?
Aye bro I’m only year 3 so I’m guessing the first panel is where The MBJ is
It kind of sounded like you're not to have the ground buss attached to the panel box?
Yeah, it seems the grounding bus in the main lug panel is touching the enclosure. 🤔🤷🏿♂
Hi sparky how do I leave you message about electrical
Thanks
wpm44@yahoo.com
Can you explain why it’s not bonded or the dangers of bonding
I'm going to have a 2023 NEC update of this video coming out tomorrow. Please check it out. As for the danger of bonding in the wrong place, the neutral is the return path of the current, and ground wire holds the fault current to trip the breaker in protecting the person and the facility. Bonding beyond the proper location ruins this system and is dangerous for that reason.
Either will still clear a short even if there is an existing ground fault. We just don't want current on the egc
You lost me at the end. Not sure what to do now. 😂
Talking about 4:50? If so, it's because the NEC refers to a neutral that is grounded as a "grounded conductor". The "equipment grounding conductor" (EGC) is the bare copper going to the ufer or ground rod. So the neutral is bonded to the first panel (making it a grounded conductor) that has a disconnect, and then it is kept separate from the EGC in every other "downstream" panel.
@@MyFortressConstruction Thanks, I was lost there too, but your explanation brought it all back together for me.
Ey! Took you long enough! Been busy sending out stickers? ;-) Thank you!
Yes, we sent out stickers to about 40 people. It was fun!
In the summary beginning at 5:04, I wish you had used the word "neutral" clearly in your answer because it was in the original question (and title) of this video. I think you kind of "owed" that to us.
I think your summary meant to say, "The answer is: in the first panel, the neutral and ground may touch, but in the other two they may not." I follow this practice, but I have mostly seen over my lifetime that neutral and ground are (electrically) identical in the service entrance, but often allowed (sloppily) to merge or be confused physically in the breaker panels, especially in older construction.
Since it appears from the other comments that it is a "thing," I'll say that where I live, there tend only to be a service entrance with a disconnect (for firemen and vandals) plus (usually only) one main breaker panel, but occasionally one or two subpanels thereafter.
My brother and I love your videos because they're so thorough, almost "legalistic."
Great points! "Ungrounded conductor" and "equipment grounding conductor" wouldn't fit in my title and I made the title after I made the video so sorry for any confusion. Thanks Russell!
Is in the center panel that's where they're bonded together
it depends where the actual ground is. It should be bonded where the closest entrance is such as the meter or sometimes the main panel if its on the other side of the wall.
@@ZackMeetsWorldthats not right no
@@coreyfranco7060 the neutral has to be bonded to ground in the first means of disconnecting. I should have made it more clear
I seem to recall that a garage apartment I lived in for awhile had a subpanel where its feed wires entered the structure via an underground conduit. Ground and neutral were bonded at that subpanel, but my electrician said that was OK because there was a ground rod at the subpanel, providing an independently derived ground. Was he correct?
Yes
As long as there was no ground pulled from the original source. When a new ground is established, grounded systems must not be interconnected from the line side.
@@cricketyosh Sure enough, only two black conductors were pulled through the conduit.
If there was a ground pulled in with the feeders and neutral, then no, you wouldn’t want to bond inside that panel.
I think you would want to bond inside the subpanel, but actually leave the ground from the main panel disconnected- just cap it off inside the subpanel. It would just be there to catch lightning or whatever along the feed.
I'm thinking that would mean using a dielectric isolator on any conducive conduit between panels in separate buildings. I could be wrong.
The first main panel
So the first Main enclosure should be Bonded Neutral and ground terminal....👍
First panel fed from meter base
No. This has a meter combined with a main breaker. See 250.24 (B) 2:49
depending where your disconnect is located
@@SparkyChannel guess i should've watched the video. I just gave my opinion from the thumbnail.
@@evildoer79 They say any day you learn something new is a good day!
Idk I'm in Ohio and my 200amp disconnect is bonded together at the telephone pole and then in my house it goes into a 200amp breaker in main panel and it's grounded together to with neutral.
Why must it never touch inside the other two panels? What could theoretically happen?
Are you asking about a neutral wire touching an enclosure such as the MLO enclosure in my example?
Sparky Channel At 4:59 it says the “grounding conductor must never be allowed to touch the enclosure” and it’s referring to the right and middle enclosure with arrows. What could theoretically happen?
@@suspicionofdeceit Please listen again at 4:59 I say "grounded conductor" which is the neutral. The ground wire is the "equipment grounding conductor " or "EGC". The grounded conductor must never touch the metal of a panel except where the bonding occurs which in this case is the meter/disconnect. The reasoning behind this is because we want one path for power to return to the source. If you connect grounds and neutrals at the MLO or a subpanel, the grounds could take some of the power load and deliver it back to the source (the main panel).
Sparky Channel Got it! I’m used to “neutral” rather than “grounded conductor”.
@@suspicionofdeceit Excellent!
At the meter box disconect.
What did I win
Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner...🙏💪🔥
Congatulations!
Hi sparky how do I get a sticker. Thanks
Write me at wpm44@yahoo.com and leave your name and address.
what area are you in?
San Diego.
At the first means of disconnect.
"At the first means of disconnect" is a simplified version of 250.24 (B). It does boil down to the same thing but I would rather direct people to 250.24. It's more exact and it mentions that the main bonding jumper has to be unspliced.
The 1st disconnect
Excellent!
Middle panel
Nope.
So basically the ground and neutral should be separate, when down stream of the main disconnect?
The only time you would see the ground and neutral bonded in a main panel is if the main disconnect is in the main panel? If the main disconnect is separate, such as out by the meter, then the main panel will have a separate neutral and ground.?
Yes, that's correct.
@@SparkyChannel It appears to me that a similar but not identical setup could allow the breaker panel to be the location of the bond. If the disconnect at the meter is labeled "EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT" and then the breaker panel had a main breaker, that main breaker in the panel would be the first "SERVICE DISCONNECT" and when labeled as such the bond would be proper at that point. Is that the correct interpretation of 230.85 and the relevant bonding codes?
No
Why 3 panels
Left is service entrance /main, middle is subpanel, right is for backfeeding a generator.
Great video. As someone that loves my country but doesn't trust the government at all , I personally hate having a service disconnect that is outside of a home. I know they claim it is for fire personnel safety but I can see police and the alphabet soup of federal agencies using it
Ur paranoid bro..trust me ur not that important..
@@borys444 that is what the Canadian truckers thought.
@@vicktorpatriot1430 oh boy…. 🤦
I understand what you are saying and agree the gov is completely untrustable. However, if an agency is interested in cutting your power, it would be trivial to cut the tag on the meter and just pull the meter. Would probably be a bit of a show as the arc from breaking the connection could be intense but totally doable. They could also just put a couple shotgun slugs through your conduit. I personally don't like external disconnects either since any old person could just walk by and kill your power. The homeless in our area do all sorts of crazy stuff so this could be an issue for certain people.
Well, it also permits any neighborhood troublemaker or kid to switch off.
Electrician U just posted something like this a few hours ago
Ok so basically the transfer switch doesn’t switching the neutral. Well i think you can bonded at the transfer switch too if you choose too. Probably you have to terminate electrode grounding conductor at the transfer switch if you doing so.
Nope, no bond at transfer switch