The Case for Christian Universalism with Robin Parry
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Robin Parry is one of the leading Christian universalists today. In this interview, we discuss Robin's views from the perspective of Scripture, theology, history, and pastoral theology. To explore Robin's ideas further, see his excellent book "The Evangelical Universalist." amzn.to/3HDCTGu (promoted link)
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus Christ as Lord, eventually; I'm just an early adopter 🙂
Heaven and hell have no meeting place, because the Kingdom of Heaven is All-encompassing. We speak that We do know and testify that We have seen the Way, the Truth and the Life and nothing Is Real!
I don't know what to think and I guess I'll have to live with the mystery for now. What I do believe though is that if a Christian doesn't at least hope that it's true, there's something awry in his spirit
Thank you for this interview, I've read TEU four times and I'm currently reading his 'Biblical Cosmology' book. Great theologian with such great humility which is a rare combination.
I've been on a David Bentley Hart binge recently (prominent Universalist); might be worth having him on too!
I agree DBH sure is one of the leaders of defending UR
Would love to see him more on debates and shows
Thank you for some new thoughts: Jesus defeated Death rather than Jesus defeats all of those caught under its curse. Death is destroyed in the Final Judgment / Lake of Fire rather than those who died. Not that those were said directly, but what was said drove me there.
this belief correlates with God's character of never failing to love
Cool discussion--love Robin's casual relaxed yet sober reflectiveness
Pure Gospel.There is no bad news in the good news!
True, we sure do have a lot to learn from him 😊
@@OrdoSanctiBenedictusamen brother ✝️🙏
Position of Hope [~57 min] Love this idea. My apologetic should be consumed by a reasonable defense of that hope, which is stressed to an extreme under the eternal torture dogma.
"Hell" is a devilish construct...The Kingdom of Heaven is The Whole Divine Creation. Only the Truth is true! Verily, verily I say unto you, Before the Bible was I AM! I Am Spirit and Love, Light and Life. Only the Father, the Son and the Spirit are , and have always been Holy.
When scripture says, "the smoke of their burning goes up forever and ever," its meaning the sinners' dead works being burned off, not the person themselves.
I hope Universalism is true, but I am not convinced Universalism is true.
Great interview, and I love Robin Parry but I wish that there was more mention of how hell is a mistranslation for Sheol, hades, gehenna, etc, and how many confuse hell with the second death. I notice that many Universalists don't expound on this too much.
11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Universalism is the biggest lie manufactured by the Devil! God gives people a clear choice to accept the offer of salvation or face annihilation! These verses mean that there will be very serious consequences, that's if people don't take the offer of salvation!
V
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Gehenna is a physical place in greater Jerusalem. It's where they burned the trash, the fires burned constantly, and it is where the Romans disposed of the bodies of Jews killed during the sack of Jerusalem.
Mike Williams and Daniel Rouse of Gospel Revolution have done a whole series on this, you can find it on youtube.
Being saved also has to do with the embodiment of the kingdom of God, its principles, and power. The Gospel of Jesus
I can agree to that, but can Faith be separated from it? If yes, then pelagianism must be true, if no then universalism's claim is undermined
@@Qwerty-jy9mj That seems like a false dilemma.
@@NudlemanJones
not really, Dr Rauser said the way to reconcile this would be to say people may be justified after death, which would in turn concede purgatory. Is purgatory tenable for a protestant? I mean, given that we're already at a point where we're discussing universalism that's not out of bounds but in any case, it shows that this isn't a false dilemma.
@@Qwerty-jy9mj So either Pelagianism is true, or Universalism is? That's not a false dichotomy?
I could totally be misreading you, here.
@@NudlemanJones
the OP said being saved "has to do" with the embodiment of God's kingdom, presumably this means to do reflect on earth the goodness due to you in heaven, this is the definition of good works. This would account for the salvation of heathens, apostates and blasphemers, they must all have done a good work at some point.
I mention the issue of pelagianism because the exact (orthodox) requirement the proposition leaves out is the profession of Faith. Catholics for example, who are often accused of pelagianism, believe salvation is contingent on a combination of faith and works, but faith is always present.
We could say for example, that Jesus has justified _everyone_ and this resolves the problem, but then the specific claims of protestantism would be under question because the common claim is that of sola fides. As I mentioned, once you extend this to a post mortem justification, then it gets admittedly difficult to insist that it isn't at least possible.
The older I get the less I look at all of the dogmas, the formal and little things, the so called certainties imposed on mankind. All bs.
More important to me is the heart, the outlook of a person, the way how religious matters are being discussed. Their sensitiveness and tolerance. Would God really love someone who thinks he knows everything, behaves in a condescending way, enjoys seeing people suffering? All these denominations should discuss the issue of Universalism much more intense. I see these guys have a heart. Thats why they are great. Pretty sure God likes them🎉❤🎉🎉
Dr. Rauser, what keeps you from being a dogmatic universalist instead of a hopeful universalist?
What's so great about spending eternity in heaven without your non- Christian loved ones? Especially if they are languishing in some torturous dungeon. Heaven would be a ghastly place with a bitter aftertaste.
Is this a joke?
@@Qwerty-jy9mj No. It's a serious objection. Even worse, if ETC is true, serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer, who is credibly reported to come to salvation while in prison before he himself was murdered, basking forever in the glory of God in Heaven while most, if not all of his young victims, whose lives he cut brutally short are very likely suffering for eternity in Hell, compounding the suffering Dahmer caused.
I am not a believer, but if I was, the universalist position that posthumous salvation is possible, even likely for most people, is the only remotely equitable position for a just and loving God to take.
@@EnglishMike
it isn't serious at all, it shows a serious misunderstanding of heaven and sanctification. This isn't islam, theosis isn't to fulfill the hedonism you couldn't have in the earthly life.
Why does it matter that you're an atheist at all btw? so you want universalism to be true, how is that relevant?
Agreed 1000%.
Those in heaven wouldn’t be allowed to remember their earthly life on its fullness I imagine.
Thanks so much brother you really did make an impact to my walk with the lord, on how to be kinder more patient and loving
May God bless you ✝️😊
I remember reading Psalm 133 (MT) when I was wrestling with this issue. That at least gave ne hope I don't need to know everything. Im learning to recognize where I am without knowledge and leave it with God for now.
This reconcilation of humanity takes place in stages. Christ, them that are Christ's and then in the New Earth in the ages to come the rest of humanity.
What most don't seem to understand is that the gospel is not only Jesus but the gospel is also the word of God, and so reconcilation to God through Christ is also being transformed into the word of God.
The reconciliation of all things back to God I believe is the way to understand all things in creation being made new. Separation onto otherwise everlasting torment is conquered forever. If some mainstream christians understood the universalist or original view of the early church correctly, they would sooner rather than later see that a doctrine of ECT is just technically true in past tense, and that the message of the gospel is an eternal message of all spiritual separation being accounted for and forgiven in God’s appointed time.
54:40 Totally agree re traditionalist hell being a 'cuckoo in the nest'. It just doesn't make sense. Why would a loving God, or a God who is like Jesus, not give post mortem opportunity to repent and believe? A God who wants everyone to be saved? I think concepts of judgement and hell in the NT owe a lot to GrecoRoman culture of the time..
Reading his book right now, so good!
I would also highly recommend Thomas Talbot's "The Inescapable Love of God" - both are absolutely phenomenal (I enjoy Parry's writing style a tad better), and I say that as a non-Christian.
@@inwyrdn3691 Great book. Why did you de convert, if you don’t mind me asking?
@@bramrawlings3051 I can try to summarize at least 😀. I don't know if the word "deconvert" applies to me - I'm a polytheist. When I was a universalist I began a pretty intense Bible study and found things that I never noticed before, such as God torturing and murdering Bathsheba's son in 2nd Samuel. I looked for explanations and all of them involved making up excuses and adding to Scripture. I kept going and realized apologetics had to invent verses to explain atrocities and that was that. I began to study both atheism and polytheism and polytheism was more rational to me. Many people have had religious experiences, and though they may be colored by their culture I could not, as an atheist would need to claim, reasonably assume 100% of them were lying, delusional, or fundamentally mistaken about their experiences. Philosophical arguments (such as the ontological and teleological) also made more sense for polytheism than monotheism, and positive atheism was incompatible with my own experiences.
I began to study multiple pantheons and came to the understanding that so long as I can't prove a deity's non-existence (as I could with the Abrahamic god by way of invalidation by self-contradiction - all-loving and murdering children don't mesh, let's at least agree to that) each had at least a potential to exist, in some manner.
I use the term "panheretic" - pan meaning all, heretic (in its original sense) meaning to choose. I choose to honor all gods, those that at least have a chance to exist, at least
@@inwyrdn3691 Have you read 'Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God' by Brian Zahnd ? Or have you checked out Brad Jersak's work such as his book 'A More Christ like Word' ?
@@inwyrdn3691 Are you familiar with non - historical readings of the old testament? There are plenty of Christians who don't believe that everything it presents as history actually is, and this appears to have always been the case. I believe that Randal Rauser applies something like this approach to Biblical violence.
Lite on exegesis. Heavy on anecdotes and wishes. I can’t imagine anyone being set off from you when you go around calling anyone who holds to orthodoxy devils! 😂
While I appreciate hearing Robin Parry speak on universalism, I feel it would have benefitted the discussion for universalism to have been contrasted with annihilationism in addition to ECT, which appeared to be the only opponent addressed here. Many of the issues addressed to ECT by Robin here don’t hold water against annihilationism, or at least not in the same way.
Especially if you're an inclusivist annihilationist who believes that humble people of other religions (such as the tax collector in Jesus' parable) can be saved through Christ but that self-righteous hypocrites will be destroyed. That position is entirely compatible with the Synoptic Gospels, which are our most reliable record of Jesus' sayings and teachings. Robin Parry's arguments are much weaker against such a view.
try to get a podcast
This Bible verse supports what Robin explains at 12:51..."For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:36)
Lopez Edward Thompson Helen Miller Carol
Having recently 'discovered' David Bentley Hart, I am delighted to find that other Christians believe that God's will for men and women can never be ultimately frustrated. I also have no problem with a young male Jew, called Jesus of Nazareth, being FULLY human. But, perhaps one can only reach these positions if - like me - you attend no church for fifty years of adult life. Having studied Theology, I ended up as a Registered Nurse: HONEST homosexual men being unable to be 'ordained' in the early 1970s (unless they gravitated to London, and found an 'understanding' bishop!). Thank goodness for contemporary 'Jesus-Studies' scholars, such as Paula Fredriksen and Geza Vermes! Can it be right that one "believes" in order to avoid "hell"? Sounds rather Islamic to me! Surely, belief in the Creator God of Israel (and all that exists!), and that this same God was active uniquely in a young male Jew, crucified and risen, is sufficient 'carrot' in itself, without the 'stick' of 'hell'. Jesus makes sense of the Creator God of Israel. May his name be praised above every name!
I’ve been occupied with the idea of Jesus who said, specifically and unambiguously, that he came “unto his own, in the forms and ‘dressings’ of his own people. He made some exceptions, and made it clear that they were exceptions. This indicates a different take on the words “limited” in all contexts of his ministry as a Jew. The metaphors (shadows) of Judaism that Jesus responded and reacted to were fulfilled in his being and ministry for Israel and they form limitations around most of the New Testament record and I suspect distortions (limitations) arise in applications of grace when the temple templates are imposed on the rest of the world as universal, thus exporting and imposing exclusivism and election on the nations. nations.
I think Jesus breaks these exclusivist ideas, crushes them in his adoption of them and that he reveals a different Divine Nature in his association with the excluded ones. I listened to some renowned theologians explaining away Gods love for the world via e.g., positing three or four kinds of love and the notions of common v special grace: all get rain and sunshine, only some get the adoption of children of God. Regardless of how we get around the theories in reason, I have no doubt that those ideas of limitation excuse many proponents from loving all people.
Great interview! Thanks for hosting it!
very helpful! thanks!
Outstanding interview. Loved the anecdote at the start.
The answer to the question at 13:50 was likely the most cogent response I have heard to that question. I am no longer a believer but if I had to hope for one version of Christianity which still contains salvation via the crucifixion of Jesus, it would be the version beautifully presented today.
If God who is love doesn’t love all people, I am expected, by Christ, to love all…. to out-love God?Personally, I pray to love all and in seeing like this I feel “Namaste” as I meet anyone anywhere. I see the character of universal love in Jesus, his words and his ministry, especially in the Sermon on the Mount. Where there seems to be exclusion, it seems to be exclusion of those who exclude.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life - He alone is worthy of worship and is the most high God. Not just ‘universal love’. Jesus came to tell everyone there is and will only ever be 1 way to God and that’s through Him alone
@@Carlos-sr8km Thank you. The only thing I can say about that is it is presented as a fact, and facts (are supposed to) remain facts whether one believes them or even knows them or not. Believe has no bearing on the factual nature of facts. Within the Gospel framework as a whole, Jesus is God's initiative; the human response is also God's initiative in that He is said to bring (draw) us to himself, i.e., Jesus is more God's Way of doing all that he does... and that is regardless of all other supposed facts of origins and purposes. Our believe does not substitute for God's way or purposes.
The out love God thing. I’ve always wondered why we are told to highly value people because they are made in Gods image, but yet God doesn’t seem to care about those made in His image if He roasts them eternally.
@@judethree4405 Hi Jude. There is conflict between various versions of the Bible message; we can safely speak of “Bible messages” because the whole range of often conflicting messages that make up the countless range of so-called Biblical sects and denominations testify to this ambiguity. There is, however, a helpful summary that we can apply: love God and love your neighbour because God is, after all, love. Some big books include true reports of a lot of bad stuff… as does the Bible. There is a conclusion regarding the winding narrative of good and evil, perception and misperception. And that conclusion is- God is love, love one another and love your enemies. You can.
@@JohnCahillChapelJust say it. No word games. Man up and say what you know will sound contridictive. At least you would be honest
Unfortunately I see a ton of things on hell in my church… but if other churches are moving away that would be nice !
Most mainstream denominational liberal churches rarely if ever preach about Hell. I spent my first 30 years as a regular attendee in the British Methodist Church, and I don't recall a single sermon or Bible study about Hell. My memory is by no means perfect, but unlike a lot of the teenage Christians who visit Reddit's Christianity sub in a panic about going to Hell, I do not recall ever being particularly concerned about ending up there, and it wasn't because I knew I was saved.
@@EnglishMike 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Universalism is the biggest lie manufactured by the Devil! God gives people a clear choice to accept the offer of salvation or face annihilation! These verses mean that there will be very serious consequences, that's if people don't take the offer of salvation!
V
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Bravo 18:34
This certainly wasn't as heretical as I first thought! Sorry for assuming that..
I can definitely get alongside the suffering explanation how we don't understand why God allows it, suffering is a mystery that requires presence; the reason I want to be a counsellor to be present for those suffering.
My question is how does this view approach the injustices or atrocities committed against one another by other humans? Will that human be saved? How does a victim deal with those strong desires of hate and feeling hurt? Or is this where Justice belongs to God in that instance and why we have lament?
Traditional Christian Universalism has held that folks will be punished- just not eternally and the punishment is to correct the ills you mentioned.
I think it’s best when likened to a cast iron skillet. If it’s cared for and cleaned properly, then each time it gets cleaned it’s not hard. If each time it’s used, the caked on food is left on it and it keeps getting used for years, then when you finally decide to clean it, it’s going to take a lot more work. For people like the latter, they will come out the other end of a harrowing restorative experience (call it hell if you like) transformed into the purest version of their true self which hungers for relationship with the Holy Spirit and service to their fellow man. Hitler won’t be Hitler as he was in this life as we knew it.
How do you (universalist believers) explain this: In Adam all humanity is "dead" and in Christ (thanks his redemption) all humanity is reconciled with God. This "rule" doesnt apply on Satan. He sinned even before our world was created and in fact he was the on who caused the problem with sin (by tempting Eva...). So he cant be reconciled by Christs redemption work because it applies only to human race. And we read inMatthew 25:41 - The New International Version (NIV)
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
So hell (at least for devil) must exist.
11:13 Robin Parry For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Universalism is the biggest lie manufactured by the Devil! God gives people a clear choice to accept the offer of salvation or face annihilation! These verses mean that there will be very serious consequences, that's if people don't take the offer of salvation!
V
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
ECT as a false doctrine that makes Satan out to be a demi-god who rivals God Himself is also a spiritual veil being kept over many men’s eyes within this age. Satan is at most only a prosecutor who plays his role in court. The truth of the Gospel frees all men from that veil of understanding in God’s appointed time.
ECT is a false doctrine that excuses an attitude of self-righteousness for those who see themselves as appointed before others. The Pharisees for all their belief onto their own justification in the law before others were still rebuked the harshest by Christ.
Totally agree.
Why do you think universalisam is a lie and like you say it comes from devil? Not even Augustin who is father of infernalism did not thought those things like you, he did not agree with universalists but he called them brothers with gentle hearts. Do you know that Augustine did not know greek, and he is sorry for not learning it. His theology is based from latin translations of greek teksts. Why do you think majority is not decieved by the devil? Usualy through history majority was wrong... so by your theology most of the saved people will be from Christian west, because people in east are worse than people in west and their hearts are not opened?
True 'believers' place that belief as a result of reconciliation that has occured amd finished.
Mankind in error, with the encouragement of religious preservation efforts place their belief as a precursor to their reconciliation. Which is not a correct perspective of the Gospel. To put ones belief prior to ones salvation is evidence that the one thing they lack they have not reliquished. This one thing we lack is not money, but something far more valuable. Which is retaining posession of our right to our free will and the subsequent refusal to surrender it back to the very One who gave it.
Where we failed in one garden, Jesus recouped in another garden when He stated "Not my will, but Your Will".
We mere men shall do the same to enter into or rather apprehend the fullness of Christ. When our salvation/reconciliation is based on our 'belief' which is a good, but also flawed human virtue. Then that reconciliation is not absolute because it then becomes 'our' reconcilation of ourselves to Him, instead of rightfully "His" reconcilation of Him to us.
Remember Jesus came down from above, as all things divine does. To 'go up' to Jesus is akin to the tower of babel, made by brick, not stone. Bricks are MANufacturered, while stones are provided. Us putting our belief before salvation is a MANufactured religious act. On the otherhand surrending to the work of the cross is accepting ones adoption by no choice of our own.
In the same way we were born of the flesh by no choice of our own. We therefore are also born of the Spirit by no choice of our own. A Truth we shall allow to be assimilated into our being.
Interesting discussion. But, I don't see any compelling argument for universalism
In the context of protestantism, what happens to sola fides if universalism is true?
There is no inconsistency. The only problem would be with those who say that repentance and reconciliation cannot occur posthumously.
Does anybody ever wonder why there are few that will be saved from the second death which are the elect, the rest which are labeled as the nations will go to the lake of fire in Revelation 20, yet the nations will still be seen in the New Earth in chapters 21&22 even eating from the tree of life???
Do people even notice this???
This is certain biblical proof that the rest of creation will be saved after the great white throne judgment.
Sola fides refers to the fidelity of Christ, it's the total victory of his faith and faithfulness over all enemies. That's the gift. Forget the self centered protestant rubbish.
@@benc6537”self centered Protestant rubbish”
that’s a bit reductive and ad hoc. Can you give context and support for this?
@thomasdillon777 the context, dear sir, is the word 'in' in the 4 Solas. Not saved by my faith in Christ, but by Christ's faith in God. My role is just to receive his faith as a gift of grace, so it may grow within me. Ask yourself if the Solas, high minded as they sound, are Christ centered or self centered.
Francois Du Toit translated from the Greek- “The Mirror Bible” which is very helpful for those looking to dive deeper into theology 🔥❤️✝️🙌
27:05 It´s funny how theologians will change the definitions of basic words like "reconcile," so that they mean the opposite of what they really mean, so that they conform to their broken infernalist pseudotheology.
Robin Parry exudes the gentle humility and love of Christ. I, like Randall, am a HOPEFUL Trinitarian Restorationist. God bless both of you, brothers ✝️ 🙏 ❤️
Great interview!
Theres many times the Bible uses the exact terms and words to describe very finite and even short events as eternal or forever and ever, therefore we cannot conclude when that is applied to the unsaved, that it REALLY means infinite time then.
Doesn't universalism kind of render all the warnings Jesus gave about hell and sin pointless?
Not really. Take Noah for example. He preached warnings to the world for 120 years and that a guess who the only ones who heard the warnings were???
Do you know why Noah and his family were the only ones to be saved and the rest of the world were damned???
It's all in the grace!
By grace are you saved through faith, and it was only Noah identified to find grace in the eyes of the Lord which is why although they heard Noah preach all them years but they could do nothing about it, they did not have that grace/Spirit...
The same it is today that only the ones who have received grace will be able to respond to the gospel and the rest will not be able to in this age until the new Earth.
Aren't pain, suffering, and corruption in this world point enough?
Why did the Pharisees, who despised Jesus Who accepted the gentiles, still suffered going through hell after this life? Their self-righteousness in their belief in their knowledge of the law was not God’s righteousness. God’s righteousness if it’s understood correctly is His will and work through all the OT and NT to restore all things back to Himself. The OT comes before the NT to highlight how all men’s actions that come forth from the heart do hold weight and significance. The condition that we are in does matter to God. The NT reveals how the Kingdom is in a man’s spirit, so God’s work is to retrieve men back to Himself by quickening some men before others so that others can follow with a repentant heart when they flock to those whom Christ appoints as ministers to the lost.
Hell as a sentence of imprisonment is a much more firm rebuke of those who for all their coldness and callousness are still stewards onto God. It’s not about a view of omitting passages that warn of hell as a consequence of critical decision making in this life. It’s being forthright in what those consequences will be, and that attempting to avoid correction in order to rebel against God’s sovereign will is futile. Mainstream Christianity highlights rebellion as a characteristic trait of the fall of mankind. In full context, what makes rebellion against God’s will a pointless effort is that God’s intention and work is to reconcile all things back to himself. Christ’s victory is that righteous intent being fulfilled.
Prophets in the OT warned of impending judgement and destruction if the people did not change. The idea was they *would* change. They would be motivated to listen, to realise how serious God took something and change. In the post mortem situation I would hope mercy triumphs over judgement. Forgive 70x7. Jesus died for the sins of all. God is love. If a person in the presence of God realises their error and truly repents and believes, is Jesus going to say 'too late'? Or like the father of the prodigal son, rush to embrace him or her and say 'yes, I died for you. Today you will be with me in paradise '?
I am no longer a Christian (I am now a polytheist) but Mr. Parry's "The Evangelical Universalist" will always have a place on my bookshelf. It is an absolutely fantastic book that everyone of any way of believing should read.
"Apostate approved!"
Says it all about Parry's heretical theology.
@@FinrodFelagund5 There is nothing heretical here.
@@bramrawlings3051 Are you an apostate too?
@@FinrodFelagund5 nope. Fully believing Christian, following the Lord God Jesus Christ.
@@bramrawlings3051 Well, if true, at least Parry has one non-apostate fan. Good for him, I guess.
Hi Randal, thank you so much for this interview. Robin helped me a lot when I was struggling in a crisis of faith, because of the insistence by the some of the strongest advocates for Christianity (including gifted apologists) that certain passages in the New Testament left us with no alternative than to believe that the vast majority of human beings would be consigned to an eternal hell. I loved reading "The Evangelical Universalist" and it was part of what changed everything in my faith journey and led me into a deeper communion with and love for God.
Enjoy the broad road while you can.
Belief in ECT/conditionalism is not neccessary for salvation
I believe you are mistaken when you believe that a vast majority of humanity will be lost. I could count all of heaven which consists of billions and billions of souls saved by either faith in a future deliverer (OT), or a deliverer that has rescued innumerable souls through His limitless love, including the unborn that died before birth, the innocent children that died without understanding what life is all about, the millions of religious people who never quite got the complete gospel but believed, and the mentally incapacitated that lived without plausible reason for they were like little children that never grew up. God's love will also include the masses and masses of people who looked for a purpose but died without hearing the gospel.
The exception of course is those who are (were) wicked at heart who did evil as much as they could and died without ever changing the minds of the evil done throughout their lives. God hates evil, while the cross is the revelation of God's heart toward sinners who couldn't save themselves but hoped for a way out which of course is Christ the Lord.
Raw universalism is heresy because God is holy love, but He will not justify the wicked and the righteous at the same time (Mat. 25:41-46; Rom.1;18-32, 3:30, 6:23, Jude 6-13, Rev. 21:8, etc.
"The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son." (Rev. 21:7 NASB 2020). We overcome by faith (in Christ), but the perverse, the abominable, the murderers, the child molesters, the wife beaters, etc., have no place in the kingdom of God. The torment is self-inflicted, not caused by God. The darkness hates the light because they rejected the gift of love in Christ.
The problem with universalism with "punishment" is that the moment we leave this realm of time and space right after death, we enter into the realm of eternity therefore whatever punishment is there for the wicked is eternal. Again, the conscious torment is self-inflicted, not God-inflicted.
big loser@@FinrodFelagund5
@@solitarypawn5076You make a lot of assumptions. None of which are very well thought out
Big fan of the both of you and your work.
Thank you a wonderful conversation.
Wonderful conversation! Thank you!
Do universalists think the demons will be reconciled?
Do demons exist? Part of a cultural idea that appeared during the Roman occupation. Arguments that the gospel writers put in these stories to give the meaning and metaphor of Jesus power... Or another way of saying mental illness.
38:49-39:04....Truth!
Correction: nothing else is Real.
Father, into Thy Hands We, Your Children of Light, commend Our Spirit as We forgive all men Our Brethren! Christ has abolished sin, death, hell and the grave! This is the Gospel of GOD 💗🙏🙏🙏!
"God is love" "He's gonna burn you in real fire for all eternity if you don't say the right words" What is wrong with this picture? You cannot realize infinity from a finite perspective
Salvation is not a formula; it is a matter of the heart that desires change from within. God, who is love, does not punish anybody. The torment is self-inflicted because the person who dies in sin is already in darkness and hates the light. God is light and in Him there i no darkness at all.
God is love so he's not going to burn and torture anybody eternally for temporary crimes. All of that symbology in scripture really throws most people down the wrong path making God into someone he's not.
@@solitarypawn5076Why would a good and loving God create a being who torments themselves? No parent stands by and let’s their children hurt themselves and does nothing. God has infinitely more resources than earthly parent so he would not let any of his creation torment themselves eternally.
Besides, God is in fact doing the torment. All reality depends on God to exist and God sustains all of it. Furthermore, God created all beings and their capacities and traits and sustains them. So ultimately God is responsible for creatures and what they do even to themselves. This is why God will restore and reconcile all of his creation.
@@eremiasranwolf3513 So even if you could prevent it, you would let your child suffer serious harm and injury because it’s their choice? Even if you had the power to stop it, you would stand by and let your child run into a burning building because it’s their choice?
Do you think that folks are wrong for stopping folks from hurting themselves and getting them mental help? Like when someone wants to jump off of a bridge or run into a burning building, you think police and firefighters should just let them do it and not try to get that person some help?
You would never think in those scenarios: my child really needs some help this is why they are wanting to hurt themselves or make such terrible decisions; something must be really wrong with them. You would never think that, you would let them hurt themselves seriously even if you could prevent it?
I enjoyed your Questions since that is what many say!!
A good stepping stone, now if you don't mind suffering for God, embrace Unitarianism and leave the polytheism (trinity heresy). Thanks to God's gift of the internet, more truth is available now for free. It used to be much more rare and hard to find. To whom much is given, much is required.
Fascinating conversation.
Not sure Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Possibly John's theology in the mouth of Jesus.
@@eremiasranwolf3513 yes, I know the book
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for hosting. If I was still a Christian, I would certainly be a convinced universalist (as opposed to hopeful).
I do have an issue with Robin's motorway/freeway analogy though. The universalist position he was illustrating is that while death is not the point beyond which salvation is no longer attainable, it is still a key moment in a person's eternal future, after which there is no turning back.
But while universalism removes the horrifically iniquitous prospect of infinite punishment for finite sins, it doesn't actually remove the difficulties infinity introduce. An infinite afterlife still reduces life on Earth to something virtually indistinguishable from total insignificance, _especially_ if salvation is no longer required before death brings this life to an end. What is the point of life on Earth at all if is decides nothing and the afterlife is infinite?
In the analogy, the junction representing death is essentially right at the very start of an infinitely long motorway/freeway and you're past it before you even know it (which is literally true for the billions who have died or will die as infants and small children).
"Apostate approved!"
More ringing endorsements.
lol, anyone can be an apostate and then recommend the Bible as their favorite book. What's your point?
@@ksan1648 The point is man-centered theology scratches itching ears.
@@FinrodFelagund5 Ironically, framing things as you have, you've unwittingly created your own man-centered theology-truth is truth, but you're making an appeal to what "apostates" make of certain theological positions, as if their opinions had any bearing on the rightness or wrongness of a belief. If apostates "prefer" free-will Arminianism to Calvinism, therefore Calvinism? If apostates prefer Calvinism to hyper-Calvinism, therefore hyper-Calvinism? Your point is rubbish.
@@linjicakonikon7666 It's true, telling people there are no eternal consequences to sin does tend to remove fear. Of course, it also removes the need for the gospel, so there's that. But we're all saved at the end of the day anyway, so might as well live it up!
No doubt this is a moral improvement on the view taken by Jesus, but the fact remains that his position on ‘the sheep and the goats’ has been part of Christian teaching since the beginning.
Sheep and goats
Sheep and goats, what is that supposed to prove? All men are disobedient. Only God can help people learn the principles of the kingdom. Disobedience is wickedness, and wickedness isn't God, so how is it holy Immortal that goats remain wicked because of their disobedience?
@@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns I’m sorry, are you saying that Jesus didn’teach a doctrine of hell (given the metaphorical name ‘gehenna’?)
@@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns Why would I read his book? Unless he is claiming that Jesus was wrong, his position is obvious special pleading.
@@davethebrahman9870 I don't want to be antagonistic towards you, but I just want to point out that there have been Christian universalists since the dawn of the church. If you don't engage with their scriptural exegesis or their moral arguments, then it's possible that you are misunderstanding them, and failing to grasp the coherence of their position. There are other ways of interpreting that parable, whether you can admit it or not. Remember that the Lord taught in parables so that he could *hide* the truth. Don't pretend they are the sort of teachings that admit of clear, obvious and unambiguous readings.