I started out reading 1 or 2 from the bible before i learned about universalism and it made me start to think about the possibility of it and now, I know that there are so many more scriptures to back it up with its a very optimistic belief.
@@diamondlife-gi7hg there's over 400 verses that support it - and yet POMPOUS FOOLS deny them all to twist a few out of context and rob people of a LASTING faith found in the LOVE of GOD. I pray for them
I appreciate this discussion. I've been reading Hart. Universalism is beginning to influence my thought. I was not raised that way at all. So, I'm in that wrestling phase, but I'm on the path.
@@PatriotsConnectProject Undoubtedly, you are correct. Honestly, I've only told my husband and my kids about my new beliefs. They were fine with it. In fact, my one daughter showed me a paper she wrote in college, defending her belief in universalism. I said, "When did you become a universalist?" She said, "Like years ago. I don't know where you've been." 🤣 However, I sincerely doubt many other people in my life would welcome this change.
@@daMillenialTrucker I'm doing okay. I've found a few people in my church who seem open to the idea of universalism. I still don't talk about it widely, though. In addition, I'm still learning. So, I don't like to talk too much about things I'm still processing.
This is the best discussion--most comprehensive--that I have heard yet. And I have watched and listened to a lot of teachings about Christian Universalism. I almost became an Orthodox Christian, but I just could not join a church which considers CU a heresy. So I would love to hear how you, Jesse, can belong to such a church. Thank you so much for the long and thorough talk where you are very calm about it, and not condemning those who do not believe in CU. I recently had an experience with my niece and nephew (in laws) where they were so passionate about eternal conscious torment that even when I begged them to stop talking at me--the young man's answer was, "but if someone is running towards a cliff, I feel a need to shout at them to keep them from going over." yikes!
Jesse was a friend of mine in college. I just reconnected with him on Facebook. I was already beginning on this path, but he has really helped me flesh out my stance more clearly.
David Bentley heart and brad jersak are both orthodox and universalists. I know fr. Aiden Kimmel has arguments on why it's not heresy. I believe the article is entitled "apocatastasis the heresy that never was". I'm not familiar with dogma enough to argue, but I am convinced it's not heresy. If anything it seems more coherent with the theology of the church fathers.
I think the ECT model is just an attempt to control God and control the outcome. In your nephew's example, there's not enough yelling or effort that he or anyone else can do to get saved. If there was, then you would be more powerful than God.
I am an Orthodox Christian. Many people in the Eastern Orthodox Church are fully aware of Universalism. Many consider it a heresy and some are indifferent about it and you’d be quite surprised that there are many CUs out there. CU is the True Gospel. It was the dominant view in the early church. I understand where you’re coming from.
Thank you for this conversation. I am struggling with this as a 58 yr old convert Baptist who is nearing becoming a catechumen in the blessed Orthodox Church of God.
There is just no way to explain how most people ending up not only dead but eternally tortured in a liake of fire would not be a victory for death and Satan.
Wow, I never really thought about it like that before, but I guess you're kinda right. Satan gets to win in a way because he manages to seperate God's creation from Him. We often focus on his suffering in Hell being a victory for God but its sort of like "You can throw me into Hell but I'll drag what you love down here with me." It's a very interesting thought.
In the ECT view, satan technically wins most of humanity, Gods plan of humanity is ultimately an embarrassing failure. And the verse "God will reconcile all creation to himself" would be incorrect
@user-jl9sk5ny2e the Bible says every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus christ is lord. And that none can say Jesus christ is lord except by the holy spirit so I would suspect that eventually even satan might repent. Probably last but it sound like it's a possibility to me.
My former pastor taught universal reconciliation. I was really drawn into his message and at that time really thought it was a breath of fresh air--freedom in a sense. He did lose a lot of folks and could not financially sustain the church so church was sold. I have met Brad Jersak and have his books. Nice guy. My thinking changed when I looked at the world through social media (aka Twitter, FB, GAB, conspiratorial sites) that's when I thought wow there is so much evil, sin, depravity, corruption, wantonness and wondered when will God intervene and judge. I want to do more in-depth study on the matter. Until then, I'm on the fence.
Something that breaks my mind. There are infinite potential people who could exist, therefore infinite people who will never exist, the same as the very very very small amount of people who lived only to be annihilated, who are we to exist? Out of infinite potential consciousness, how am I one? Thats not even a possible lottery chance, you cannot win 1 out of infinity, so who am I to exist when an infinite amount of others do not?
Eric u hit the nail on the head! I was raised as a Standard Christian and always questioned it’s rational but when my beloved Daughter grew up and became somewhat Agnostic 😮. I had to dig deeper. After actually reading the Bible and esp the Book of Revelation and not allowing a preacher to read it to me….I realized Apokatastasis is the truth. I’m a social worker and I feel due to factors like poverty, mental illness and many many other psychosocial conditions many are doomed to Sinful lives / ECS because they lost out on the “Life Lottery”.???🤔🤫
A lot of great arguments against infernalism here, but unfortunately barely any against annihilationism. For anybody still on the fence, I recommend checking out David Hart's work as well as the channel The Total Victory of Christ for some better arguments in favor of Universalism.
Only the dead works of a person is what gets burned off as the person passes through the flames. Its the smoke of their burning that goes up forever and ever, not the person themselves. But the person still has to pass through the flames to be purified of their dead works. Once they pass through, God can be "all in all."
Interesting discussion I've read DBH's book and I've found it very convincing and I haven't even come close to finding a worthy critique of it. Can ask to what Christian tradition you belong to?
Right, thankfully, there's zero support for that in the Bible when you dig. I left the church many years ago, over their hate of LGBT people and promotion of hell, among other things. Had other options been presented to me and had they explained the issues I had, very likely I would have remained in Christianity.
I went from traditionalist (23 years) to annihilationist (1 year) and then this year I became universalist, with belief in reincarnation, which I haven’t heard much about from the universalism camp if anything at all. I see all 3 views being potentially true in reincarnation. Eternal damnation because you keep coming back to suffer according to the negative karma you’ve accumulated. Annihilation because your incarnations get destroyed with each new one having zero memory of the previous. Universal because at some point you will come to faith in Jesus and won’t have to leave the temple anymore according to what Jesus said in Rev. 3:12 “The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it.”
When Jesus is talking about torment in Hell, he is talking about passing through the flames to have your dead works purged from you, not for you to remain in the flames with your dead works in tow. Remember, only "the smoke of their burning goes up forever and ever," not the person themselves. If God threw his shards in the fire forever and ever, He is basically throwing himself in the fire. And as God is a consuming fire, he would be punishing himself for the sins of the shards. God can't be "all in all" if some shards remain in the fire. Jesus is just trying to warn us to go through the fire of God's discipline in this life; so the second death fire is not needed to purge sinners' of their dead works. The fire at the second death is way worse than the fire before the first death. God has to scare stubborn sinners into repentance somehow. He has just chosen to do it through the second death flames.
Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) “Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)
Paul talks about this "rehab of purgatory" or "cosmic purgatory," when he says those people with dead works will be saved only as ones passing through the flames. Jesus says those who overcome will not get hurt by the second death. Second death is the purging flames of the lake of fire. It is for those who do not overcome. So it is better to go through the fires of God's discipline in this life.
Good and much appreciated interview from you. Lots of knowledge and moreover!! with heart. May I ask why you Eric like Nietzsche?? I see his genius, his language skills as well as his massive originality. Yet his Superman concept seems to be very dangerous to say the least. Sloterdijk also is a great Nietzsche fan. Thx🎉🎉 Andy❤
When I came across the conversation a few years ago, I never thought I’d be able to learn my way past apokatastasis, but after comments, many debates, a few articles, I’ve come to think of it as ‘none of our business’. Anyway, here’s my summary of the differing positions on the issue.: In the debate between universalism and ECT, the universalists ultimately focus on God’s nature while the ( so-called) “Infernalists” tend to focus on man’s nature. More specifically , the Universalists emphasize that God cannot fail in his ends, and his infinite love must prevail over even the most stubborn heart. Otherwise, it would mean he directly willed the damnation of some upon their creation. Meanwhile, The Infernalists emphasize the absolute nature of human freedom; in that light, you could say that God’s love while absolute and unending, indeed is ‘limited’ by our ability to reject it. Clearly the debate over this rages on but one things for certain-a person’s answer to this issue both proceeds from and colors their view of the world. Many universalists are not “confident like Hart, but instead “hopeful” both acknowledging the existence of hell while hoping that it’s empty. Still, some reject even this form of universalism, because looking around it seems pretty obvious that many people will reject Gods love in the end. From what I’ve heard of Bishop Barron’s position, I think that to be a hopeful universalist is to hope that human nature (and salvation) is more complex than we imagine…to hope that Gods mercy is as far beyond our comprehension as creation has been throughout history. Still *hopeful* is the operative word, here folks. Don’t drink that kool-aid
I don't like conscious eternal torment and would rather see annihilation. Jesse says there are more verses for universalism that the former. I wouldn't want my feelings getting in the way of what scripture makes clear. Have you both read Michael McClymond's book The Devils Redemption?
Christian Universalism produces the fruits that Christ wants us to embrace . ECT produces one to present this boastful sense of being a select few special case compared to the rest type of fruit
I have a feeling things remain veiled to peoples understanding of the wisdom of God because God foreknows what knowledge men can and can’t handle but nonetheless if they mishandle what’s given to them, their punishment is to go back into the dark. Acts says He chose our habitations that we might feel after Him. And through suffering we do learn our lessons. Your sin will find you out so to speak. But the agony of suffering for fear of the future is like a rod of iron that corrects the child like spirit. Hebrews mentions that he’d like to give them spiritual meat but they’re still on milk. And mentions we’re chastised rebuked and scourged for the sake of salvation. It’s wild that these theological discussions are made pretty clear when you open your mind from all things are impossible with God to all things are possible. I think that’s the whole point of sitting at Jesus feet like a foe and beggar in need of spiritual food. And when Jesus is the one training a disciple, they’re given keys to the kingdom, and since Jesus has the keys to death and hades, disciples are trained on how to see the way out of impossibilities and also encourage the weak and feeble. These conversations I’ve experienced when universalism is in the room, they give so much more understanding to scripture. Like the light switch is turned on. People being brought to salvation is like the calvinists describe, a choosing, but that choosing isn’t to look down on all the others outside like the Jews did but rather to be formed to the image of Christ which is a savior to mankind. I think the reason we have denominations is because people were moved from faith to faith but when called to the next chapter, they looked back and weren’t chosen to move forward because they saw it required more death of something carnal they’re holding on to. Just some thoughts I’ve pondered for a bit, sorry for the long comment
Forgot to add that it’s not until salvation of the Lord from our sufferings are we able to fall back in love with God and see how everything worked out for our good. Think that’s why Paul mentions not to judge anything before the time because the day shall declare it. People are always pointing at people judging but have no understanding of right judgment. You got weak people who are trying to get up but are kicked back down by the dogmatic, who to their surprise might find out they’re doing the devils bidding and not Gods. In my salvations, I’ve grown more in how to be merciful. Because the Lord has shown me HUGE mercy.
I'm trying to become Catholic and I'm still struggling with eternal hell. I'm coming to the conclusion lately that it just might be different levels of rewards in the new heavens and new earth.
That's Mormonism. My friend, Heaven is where you will spend all of eternity. For it to be anything less than perfection, it will inevitably become Hell. There can be many Hells, but only one true Heaven.
Matthew 10:28 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 23:33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous to ETERNAL life.” John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath REMAINS on them. Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” 2Thessalonians 1:9 “They will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” Mark 9:43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire NEVER goes out.” Jude 1:7 “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of ETERNAL fire.” Matthew 13:42 “They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 25:41 ““Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Revelation 19:20 “But the beast (and the false prophet) were captured…the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” These are NOT demons, but men. Revelation 20:13-14 “The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and EACH PERSON was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.” Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER and ever, and they have no rest, DAY OR NIGHT…” Does this plethora of verses sound in any way like "ALL will be saved?" By the way, these are NOT my words, but rather the Bible.
Sorry, guys, but annihilationism really doesn’t cut the mustard. If the Spirit of God is within every person, and we are members of the body of Christ, then which parts of the body of Christ are to be cut off for this theoretical dismemberment? What part of God would God care to annihilate on the path to self mutilation? There seems to me to be a problem with attempting to do a subtraction from the infinite. By the way, more fitting description of David Bentley Hart would be that he hits everything out of the ball park to achieve his many home runs. 😉
My understanding of hell is that it is an eternal spiritual state that is conditioned by your mode of willing in this life. The historic doctrine is that you chose hell. This is against the Western idea that God sends you to hell. God is simply giving you what you chose in this life. Some of the church fathers I have read state that someone who hates God in this life won't be comfortable, nor will he want to be in heaven basking in God's love. The love of God will burn like a fire for those who hate God. People will weep and gnash their teeth over the decisions they made in this life. Origin was condemned by three Church Councils for his belief in universalism. The reason Origen adopted universalism was his teaching on absolute divine simplicity. ADS denies a NATURE/PERSON distinction in God and human anthropology. ADS is a central doctrine in Platonism. ADS is Plato's doctrine of the Monad. ADS says that NATURE and PERSON are the same thing. When you mix ADS with the doctrine of Recapitulation, which was taught by the church fathers, you get universal salvation. Recapitulation is the doctrine that all men will be resurrected from the dead because Christ conquers death in universal human nature. Christ is consubstantial with all men because He becomes flesh and identifies with all men in their humanity. If NARURE and PERSON are the same thing then Recapitulation is equivalent to universal salvation. If human NATURE and PERSON are distinct then it is human NATURE which is recapitulated. The book of Hebrews states that "Christ tasted death for every man" It is on this basis that all men are raised. Both the wicked and the righteous. If a PERSON is particular and individual then the principle of individuation applies. Christ did not identify with universal Personhood. He did not become every individual person. Which means that your individual experience will be based on the consequential effects of your individual choices for evil or good. The reason Origen was condemned was because he taught that recapitulation equates to universal salvation. To make that move you have to assume that NATURE and PERSON are the same thing. I find it interesting that universalism is mostly found in people who follow Origen. Or they belong to a Protestant Chruch. Protestantism makes no distinction between NATURE and PERSON either. Many doctrines in Protestantism are conditions by absolute divine simplicity. So, it's not surprising that Protestants are drawn to Origen and universalism. Augustine made many mistakes in his theology. His doctrine of original corporate guilt is rooted in the smashing of NATURE into PERSON. Augustine also argues on the Trinity, saying that NATURE and PERSON are the same thing. Augustine's doctrine of the Trinity was also rejected. The Cappadocian doctrine of the Monarchy of the Father was adopted and Augustine's model was rejected. So, there is no doubt that Augustine struggled with the Platonism he came out of. To his credit Augustine said that after all he had written, he left what he had taught to the judgement of the Church.
1:20:00 you said the best argument off the top of your head for infernalism was when you face Jesus he will say I never knew you. I strongly disagree. All this points to is that when people face Him, when they die, whilst thinking they are saved, only to find out they are not, they are cast into Sheol/lower Hades/hell to join the rich man to contemplate their mistakes and self pity whilst they await the 2nd resurrection unto judgement at the Great White Throne of judgement and then are cast into the Lake of Fire which will purify them, purge them, correct them, and lead them back to the Father through Christ ultimately. That fire is the very presence of God who is a consuming fire. That destroys them - their pride, their old man and they are humbled and repent while in that condition. They are then made anew. There is no more curse, the final enemy death is defeated so the 2nd death cannot be neverending if death is defeated. And then finally, as in Adam all die so also in Christ all shall be made alive. So really, Jesus saying I never knew you is a proof there is a coming punishment for the unjust dead only, but speaks nothing of how long that punishment will last! To say it means the punishment never ends is nowhere found in that specific passage. Also, to add, when He says I never knew you, for such a person being told this, clearly they are the old man, unregenerated, not in Christ. Such a man, while in the state of a withering branch who is not in Christ, while the old man, such a man Christ never knew since Christ is never one with the old man you. Christ only ever knows the born again new creature you that is in Christ. So Jesus is saying I never knew this you, this old man you, this unregenerated carnal you. So then it doesn't even entail He never knew a born again you if you ever were at one point born again but then departed from the faith and were cut off from Christ the vine by the Father the husbandman.
Well said. I argued a similar that you make. My Godfather stated “The story of Lazarus and The Rich man” to make an eternal punishment of hell the rich man.
@@thecarlitosshow7687 yes hades is the location of that story and the Bible says death and hades are cast into the lake of fire after they give up their dead. So this place in that parable is a temporary holding cell awaiting the resurrection, not a permanent abode
You're using a parable to form your theology? Sheol/Hades is the place of the dead. The Bible has been clear throughout thats its a state of sleep, and the dead don't know anything.
If we accept the notion that ultimately all will be saved, this does not negate the fact that sin must be dealt with. You must repent in order to be saved. If you don’t repent God will have to plead with you through punishment until you come to see the error of your ways and repent. All must accept Jesus as there Lord and Savior.
Don't you know anything about the second death? There is a second type of death in Scripture that is different from spiritual death, and physical death we experience in this life. The second death this is known as eternal death. In the Book of Revelation we read. V The one who has an ear, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death (Revelation 2:11). Unless spiritual death is reversed in this life, the result will be eternal death. This is unending separation between God and all who reject Him. Believers are not affected by the second death. V Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:6). The final judgment, or the lake of fire, is the time when the second death occurs. V Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14). The second death is reserved for unbelievers. Those who experience this death are all those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life. V But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death (Revelation 21:8). Eternal death, or the second death, is the ultimate form of separation. If a person dies in a state of spiritual death, they enter eternity separated from God. This is the second death. Once a person has experienced the "second death" there is no hope for them, it is irreversible. Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit. Spiritual death, the way all of us are born, is the spiritual separation of each of us from God. Eternal death, or the second death, is the eternal separation of a person from God. There is no escape from the second death. There is no third resurrection mentioned in all of scripture that can bring back the ungodly people! It's over! V Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Reincarnation is definitely true, that's what God told me in a prayer. Also there are a bunch of people who had NDEs and who confirm that there is reincarnation. But if you blaspheme the holy spirit you are out of the game... Either you spend eternity in hell, because the soul is immortal or you get another chance.. I hope that universal reconciliation is true but i have doubts.
No where does the Bible teach that you or your soul is immortal. In fact, the Bible states that only God possesses imortality, and in another place it says that it is a gift from God given at resurrection. Also, theres zero support for eternal conscious torment when one is serious and does study on it. So... where left with Annihilation and Universalism that show support. I'm a former Christian who studied these things for many hours.
So, Eric Von Evans, by your logic, you must believe that Satan and the Demons will also be Saved. Because if they are not, than God has failed in his project. You are using limited human standards towards God's purpose.
1 timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of "all" people, and especially of those who believe.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. I pray 🙏 God will open your eyes and stop the madness heresy manufactured by the Devil! You must take Jesus at his word! 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when JASON EGELAND will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
@@christophersnedeker Ok debate me! Bring scriptures to the table in order to defend your position concerning universalism? When Jesus speaks please believe him!!! Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Most of these are blanketed passages that could be used against anyone that doesn't ascribe to your views. I would start with the word "aion". Aion and its derivatives means 1) eternal 2) the world 3) an age. If aion can be defined as eternal and an age, then the definition of the word is its own antonym/opposite. If not defined correctly, one could end up interpreting the text the complete opposite of what the author intended. Ask yourself...can there be "forever and ever" or "forever more"? Forever in English defies pluralization. You cannot add "and ever" or "more" to a word defined as endless duration. That should be a red flag. A better interpretation in an age, age of ages, or ages of the ages. There are word for word translations where aion is almost always defined as an age. (Young's Literal) Nowhere in antiquity have we found an example outside of the Bible where aion is interpreted as eternal. My understanding is that aion means eternal when God is the noun being modified, because God is not limited time Koine Greek has a word that always means eternal. That word is aidios. The authors of the text did not use this word to describe punishment. Think of it this way. Does great mean eternal? No, but if God is the noun being modified it can be implied. Being eternal is one of the characteristics that makes God great. God adds weight to aion in the same manner. The term for punishment is kolasis, not timoria. Timoria is vendictive punishment. Kolasis implies correction, like a gardener prunes a plant. Conflate the two concepts and you have "an age of correction". God will lose no one to an adversary He created.
@@johndalton1043 I don't care about the Greek language! The original language of the Jews is either, Hebrew or Aramaic! When Jesus speaks please believe him!!!! Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
@@OperationReapSinners777 I appreciate the conversation. That's fine if you want to ignore the Greek, although most scholars do not. I think Matthew was originally written in Aramaic if that helps. So let's look at the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word aion. That word is olam. Even olam is mistranslated. Most commercial Bibles state Jonah was in the beast "forever". Jesus later clarifies it was three days. Jonah simply lost track of days and nights. Whether the word is olam or aion, there are clear mistranslations in most commercialized Bibles. I read through your list. Matt 7 is a problem text for CUs. I don't think it implies finality, but it is a problem text for CUs, so I appreciate the alternate view. I don't have an answer for this text, unless there is no finality being implied. I can only say that I don't define Matthew in a vacuum. This is because at least 4 different texts state every knee will bow and tongue confess. It's in the OT and NT and it doesn't matter what lexicon you look it up... "Confess" in Revelation means to praise/celebrate. Revelation actually tells us what this praise entails. You will have to ask why people are celebrating. Is it eternal hell? Annihilation? Or if all have been shown mercy? Does mercy really triumph over judgement? I will say Matt 25:46 is not about eschatology. No where in the parable is grace via faith. It's a parable about dividing nations based on humanitarianism. I noticed you like to use Matthew to define your position,, but was a bit surprised you didn't refer to Matt 25. I believe Romans 5:18-19 is a problem text...and a serious one. It states, Consequently then, by the offense of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation, thus also by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men to justification. For as by one man's offense the many became righteous, so by the obedience of one shall the many be made righteous. What is the scope of the first "all"? It is everyone, as Adam is the progenitor of the human race. The "all" must be coextensive in a compound sentence to make sense in English regardless of the language it is translated. Paul actually said the same thing twice. Once in verse 18 and again in verse 19. He echos this in 1 Cor 15:22. It would take an entirely new sentence to break the scope of the first "all" or "the many". But, Paul links his sentences by saying "thus also" and "so by". If these verses are to be coherent in English...regardless of the language it is translated... the first "all" and "the many" must be synonymous with the second use of "all" and "the many" when used in a compound sentence. Paul is not a sloppy writer. Broken down in its parallel structure it looks like this. 1) Consequently then / thus also (shows linkage) 2) by the offense of one / by the obedience of one 3) judgement came upon / the free gift came upon 4) all men / all men 5) to condemnation / unto justification 6) For as by / so by (shows linkage) 7) one man's offense / the obedience of one 8) the many were made / shall the many be made 9) sinners / righteous Regardless of whether this is written in Aramaic or Greek, how do you square these verses with Matt 7? As I admit, Matt 7 is a problem text, so I'm curious to see how you merge Matt with other problem texts. What I discovered was this...even though there are still a handful of problem texts for CUs, there are a mountain of texts that have to be accounted for if annihilation or ECT is true. For example, John the Baptist states, "Behold the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world." There is nothing in context limiting the scope of "the world", and no addendum is added. It stands as written. If he would have said "the believer" or "the repentant" or "the saved", then obviously I would interpret it much differently. But it isn't hyperbole, or metaphor, or parable, or symbolism. It's in plain language. I never ask for anyone to agree with me. I only ask for understanding and in return I seek to understand. Some of these concepts are like trying to put a square peg through a round hole. How can God be "all in all" (1 Cor 15) if annihilation or ECT is true? I understand the scripture you're using, but does your interpretation of Matt align with other scriptures? That's what I'm seeking to discover.
Universalist verses I've compiled over the years:
Numbers 14:20 -21
Numbers 16:22
Numbers 27:15
Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19
1 Kings 8:43, 60
Job 7:20
Job 12:10
Job 12:16
Job 37:7
Psalm 22:27
Psalm 22:29
Psalm 24:1
Psalm 47:1-2
Psalm 65:1-2, 5
Psalm 64:7-10
Psalm 65:1-5
Psalm 66:4
Psalm 67:1-6
Psalm 68:20
Psalm 71:18
Psalm 82:6
Psalm 82:8
Psalm 86:9
Psalm 96:1-3
Psalm 98:3-4
Psalm 102:18-20
Psalm 117:1-2
Psalm 145:21
Ecclesiastes 3:11
Isaiah 9:8-10
Isaiah 25:7
Isaiah 40:4-5, 26-28
Isaiah 45:21-23
Isaiah 48:9-11
Isaiah 49:6
Isaiah 52:10
Isaiah 59:1
Isaiah 61:10-11
Isaiah 66:23
Ezekiel 18:1-4
Ezekiel 39:25-29
Joel 2:28-32
Zechariah 2:13
Zechariah 3:10
Matthew 18:11-14
Luke 2:10-14
Luke 3:6
Luke 6:35
Luke 9:56
Luke 13:20-21
Luke 16:16
Luke 19:10
John 1:6-9, 16-17, 29
John 1:15-17
John 4:42
John 6:32-33
John 6:48-51
John 12:32, 47
John 14:30-31
Acts 2:17
Acts 3:20-22
Acts 3:23-26
Acts 10:34
Acts 13:47
Romans 11:28-29
Romans 11:30-36
Romans 14:10-11
Romans 16:25-26
1 Corinthians 4:5
1 Corinthians 5:5
1 Corinthians 15:21-24, 42-54
2 Corinthians 1:17-20
Ephesians 1:6-10
Ephesians 1:22-23
Ephesians 3:8-9, 14-15
Ephesians 4:6-13
Philippians 2:9-11
Philippians 3:20-21
Colossians 1:5-6, 19-20, 28
Colossians 3:11
1 Timothy 1:11-16
1 Timothy 1:14-15
1 Timothy 2:1-6
1 Timothy 4:9-13
1 Timothy 6:13
2 Timothy 1:8-10
Titus 2:11
Titus 3:3-7
1 Peter 4:10-11
2 Peter 3:8-9
1 John 2:1-2
1 John 4:14
I started out reading 1 or 2 from the bible before i learned about universalism and it made me start to think about the possibility of it and now, I know that there are so many more scriptures to back it up with its a very optimistic belief.
@@diamondlife-gi7hg there's over 400 verses that support it - and yet POMPOUS FOOLS deny them all to twist a few out of context and rob people of a LASTING faith found in the LOVE of GOD.
I pray for them
I appreciate this discussion. I've been reading Hart. Universalism is beginning to influence my thought. I was not raised that way at all. So, I'm in that wrestling phase, but I'm on the path.
Keep going. But stay strong Much rejection is likely ahead for you.
@@PatriotsConnectProject Undoubtedly, you are correct. Honestly, I've only told my husband and my kids about my new beliefs. They were fine with it. In fact, my one daughter showed me a paper she wrote in college, defending her belief in universalism. I said, "When did you become a universalist?" She said, "Like years ago. I don't know where you've been." 🤣 However, I sincerely doubt many other people in my life would welcome this change.
How are you doing now brother
@@daMillenialTrucker I'm doing okay. I've found a few people in my church who seem open to the idea of universalism. I still don't talk about it widely, though. In addition, I'm still learning. So, I don't like to talk too much about things I'm still processing.
Also on a similar path, to where I’m a bit nervous about being outcasted from my Reformed Calvinistic church if I speak up. How are things going now?
Thats a really good point. Why have children if most people will burn in hell for all of eternity?
Exactly what has crossed my mind many times.
EXACTLY. Why even exist at all if the end is non existence or a fate worse than non existence???
This is the best discussion--most comprehensive--that I have heard yet. And I have watched and listened to a lot of teachings about Christian Universalism. I almost became an Orthodox Christian, but I just could not join a church which considers CU a heresy. So I would love to hear how you, Jesse, can belong to such a church.
Thank you so much for the long and thorough talk where you are very calm about it, and not condemning those who do not believe in CU.
I recently had an experience with my niece and nephew (in laws) where they were so passionate about eternal conscious torment that even when I begged them to stop talking at me--the young man's answer was, "but if someone is running towards a cliff, I feel a need to shout at them to keep them from going over." yikes!
Jesse was a friend of mine in college. I just reconnected with him on Facebook. I was already beginning on this path, but he has really helped me flesh out my stance more clearly.
David Bentley heart and brad jersak are both orthodox and universalists. I know fr. Aiden Kimmel has arguments on why it's not heresy. I believe the article is entitled "apocatastasis the heresy that never was". I'm not familiar with dogma enough to argue, but I am convinced it's not heresy. If anything it seems more coherent with the theology of the church fathers.
I think the ECT model is just an attempt to control God and control the outcome. In your nephew's example, there's not enough yelling or effort that he or anyone else can do to get saved. If there was, then you would be more powerful than God.
I am an Orthodox Christian. Many people in the Eastern Orthodox Church are fully aware of Universalism. Many consider it a heresy and some are indifferent about it and you’d be quite surprised that there are many CUs out there. CU is the True Gospel. It was the dominant view in the early church. I understand where you’re coming from.
Thank you for this conversation. I am struggling with this as a 58 yr old convert Baptist who is nearing becoming a catechumen in the blessed Orthodox Church of God.
Loved this discussion. So many thoughts, but this was really really good.
There is just no way to explain how most people ending up not only dead but eternally tortured in a liake of fire would not be a victory for death and Satan.
Wow, I never really thought about it like that before, but I guess you're kinda right. Satan gets to win in a way because he manages to seperate God's creation from Him. We often focus on his suffering in Hell being a victory for God but its sort of like "You can throw me into Hell but I'll drag what you love down here with me." It's a very interesting thought.
In the ECT view, satan technically wins most of humanity, Gods plan of humanity is ultimately an embarrassing failure. And the verse "God will reconcile all creation to himself" would be incorrect
My question is what happens to Satan, I would speculate ever lasting destruction
@user-jl9sk5ny2e the Bible says every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus christ is lord. And that none can say Jesus christ is lord except by the holy spirit so I would suspect that eventually even satan might repent. Probably last but it sound like it's a possibility to me.
My former pastor taught universal reconciliation. I was really drawn into his message and at that time really thought it was a breath of fresh air--freedom in a sense. He did lose a lot of folks and could not financially sustain the church so church was sold. I have met Brad Jersak and have his books. Nice guy. My thinking changed when I looked at the world through social media (aka Twitter, FB, GAB, conspiratorial sites) that's when I thought wow there is so much evil, sin, depravity, corruption, wantonness and wondered when will God intervene and judge. I want to do more in-depth study on the matter. Until then, I'm on the fence.
Something that breaks my mind. There are infinite potential people who could exist, therefore infinite people who will never exist, the same as the very very very small amount of people who lived only to be annihilated, who are we to exist? Out of infinite potential consciousness, how am I one? Thats not even a possible lottery chance, you cannot win 1 out of infinity, so who am I to exist when an infinite amount of others do not?
Great discussion. Thanks Eric.
Eric u hit the nail on the head! I was raised as a Standard Christian and always questioned it’s rational but when my beloved Daughter grew up and became somewhat Agnostic 😮. I had to dig deeper. After actually reading the Bible and esp the Book of Revelation and not allowing a preacher to read it to me….I realized Apokatastasis is the truth. I’m a social worker and I feel due to factors like poverty, mental illness and many many other psychosocial conditions many are doomed to Sinful lives / ECS because they lost out on the “Life Lottery”.???🤔🤫
A lot of great arguments against infernalism here, but unfortunately barely any against annihilationism. For anybody still on the fence, I recommend checking out David Hart's work as well as the channel The Total Victory of Christ for some better arguments in favor of Universalism.
Only the dead works of a person is what gets burned off as the person passes through the flames. Its the smoke of their burning that goes up forever and ever, not the person themselves. But the person still has to pass through the flames to be purified of their dead works. Once they pass through, God can be "all in all."
Interesting discussion I've read DBH's book and I've found it very convincing and I haven't even come close to finding a worthy critique of it. Can ask to what Christian tradition you belong to?
Thank you! Yes, universalism is, in my assessment, irrefutable. I definitely align with more of the East.
Any thoughts on the Revelation 22 and Rev 14 clear hell passages? If these cant be reconciled, CU is false
Great point at 1:13 - why have kids if they run the risk of burning in hell forever?
Yes this brings up a really good point and makes sense if u really think about it...
I guess John Pipers son will burn in hell forever. John piper is a very famous evangelist and pastor in the Protestant faith.
Agreed! One hell of an argument!
Right, thankfully, there's zero support for that in the Bible when you dig.
I left the church many years ago, over their hate of LGBT people and promotion of hell, among other things. Had other options been presented to me and had they explained the issues I had, very likely I would have remained in Christianity.
The cruelty of eternal punishment is a reason many caring people reject all religions with this doctrine.
I believe the "I never knew you" & being "cast into outer darkness" passages likely had to do with when judgment came in 70 AD
Great discussion. Thank you.
Great discussion. Just found more like-minded people. Love it.
I went from traditionalist (23 years) to annihilationist (1 year) and then this year I became universalist, with belief in reincarnation, which I haven’t heard much about from the universalism camp if anything at all. I see all 3 views being potentially true in reincarnation. Eternal damnation because you keep coming back to suffer according to the negative karma you’ve accumulated. Annihilation because your incarnations get destroyed with each new one having zero memory of the previous. Universal because at some point you will come to faith in Jesus and won’t have to leave the temple anymore according to what Jesus said in Rev. 3:12 “The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it.”
When Jesus is talking about torment in Hell, he is talking about passing through the flames to have your dead works purged from you, not for you to remain in the flames with your dead works in tow. Remember, only "the smoke of their burning goes up forever and ever," not the person themselves. If God threw his shards in the fire forever and ever, He is basically throwing himself in the fire. And as God is a consuming fire, he would be punishing himself for the sins of the shards. God can't be "all in all" if some shards remain in the fire. Jesus is just trying to warn us to go through the fire of God's discipline in this life; so the second death fire is not needed to purge sinners' of their dead works. The fire at the second death is way worse than the fire before the first death. God has to scare stubborn sinners into repentance somehow. He has just chosen to do it through the second death flames.
Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) “Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18)
Paul talks about this "rehab of purgatory" or "cosmic purgatory," when he says those people with dead works will be saved only as ones passing through the flames. Jesus says those who overcome will not get hurt by the second death. Second death is the purging flames of the lake of fire. It is for those who do not overcome. So it is better to go through the fires of God's discipline in this life.
Good and much appreciated interview from you. Lots of knowledge and moreover!! with heart.
May I ask why you Eric like Nietzsche?? I see his genius, his language skills as well as his massive originality. Yet his Superman concept seems to be very dangerous to say the least. Sloterdijk also is a great Nietzsche fan. Thx🎉🎉 Andy❤
When I came across the conversation a few years ago, I never thought I’d be able to learn my way past apokatastasis, but after comments, many debates, a few articles, I’ve come to think of it as ‘none of our business’. Anyway, here’s my summary of the differing positions on the issue.:
In the debate between universalism and ECT, the universalists ultimately focus on God’s nature while the ( so-called) “Infernalists” tend to focus on man’s nature.
More specifically , the Universalists emphasize that God cannot fail in his ends, and his infinite love must prevail over even the most stubborn heart. Otherwise, it would mean he directly willed the damnation of some upon their creation.
Meanwhile, The Infernalists emphasize the absolute nature of human freedom; in that light, you could say that God’s love while absolute and unending, indeed is ‘limited’ by our ability to reject it.
Clearly the debate over this rages on but one things for certain-a person’s answer to this issue both proceeds from and colors their view of the world.
Many universalists are not “confident like Hart, but instead “hopeful” both acknowledging the existence of hell while hoping that it’s empty.
Still, some reject even this form of universalism, because looking around it seems pretty obvious that many people will reject Gods love in the end.
From what I’ve heard of Bishop Barron’s position, I think that to be a hopeful universalist is to hope that human nature (and salvation) is more complex than we imagine…to hope that Gods mercy is as far beyond our comprehension as creation has been throughout history.
Still *hopeful* is the operative word, here folks. Don’t drink that kool-aid
Interesting conversation.
I don't like conscious eternal torment and would rather see annihilation. Jesse says there are more verses for universalism that the former. I wouldn't want my feelings getting in the way of what scripture makes clear. Have you both read Michael McClymond's book The Devils Redemption?
Christian Universalism produces the fruits that Christ wants us to embrace . ECT produces one to present this boastful sense of being a select few special case compared to the rest type of fruit
It’s Calvinists are like this too.
I have a feeling things remain veiled to peoples understanding of the wisdom of God because God foreknows what knowledge men can and can’t handle but nonetheless if they mishandle what’s given to them, their punishment is to go back into the dark. Acts says He chose our habitations that we might feel after Him. And through suffering we do learn our lessons. Your sin will find you out so to speak. But the agony of suffering for fear of the future is like a rod of iron that corrects the child like spirit. Hebrews mentions that he’d like to give them spiritual meat but they’re still on milk. And mentions we’re chastised rebuked and scourged for the sake of salvation. It’s wild that these theological discussions are made pretty clear when you open your mind from all things are impossible with God to all things are possible. I think that’s the whole point of sitting at Jesus feet like a foe and beggar in need of spiritual food. And when Jesus is the one training a disciple, they’re given keys to the kingdom, and since Jesus has the keys to death and hades, disciples are trained on how to see the way out of impossibilities and also encourage the weak and feeble. These conversations I’ve experienced when universalism is in the room, they give so much more understanding to scripture. Like the light switch is turned on. People being brought to salvation is like the calvinists describe, a choosing, but that choosing isn’t to look down on all the others outside like the Jews did but rather to be formed to the image of Christ which is a savior to mankind. I think the reason we have denominations is because people were moved from faith to faith but when called to the next chapter, they looked back and weren’t chosen to move forward because they saw it required more death of something carnal they’re holding on to. Just some thoughts I’ve pondered for a bit, sorry for the long comment
Forgot to add that it’s not until salvation of the Lord from our sufferings are we able to fall back in love with God and see how everything worked out for our good. Think that’s why Paul mentions not to judge anything before the time because the day shall declare it. People are always pointing at people judging but have no understanding of right judgment. You got weak people who are trying to get up but are kicked back down by the dogmatic, who to their surprise might find out they’re doing the devils bidding and not Gods. In my salvations, I’ve grown more in how to be merciful. Because the Lord has shown me HUGE mercy.
Wouldn't one expect God to let Adam and Eve know that their punishment involved eternal torment?
I'm trying to become Catholic and I'm still struggling with eternal hell. I'm coming to the conclusion lately that it just might be different levels of rewards in the new heavens and new earth.
That's Mormonism. My friend, Heaven is where you will spend all of eternity. For it to be anything less than perfection, it will inevitably become Hell. There can be many Hells, but only one true Heaven.
No mention of Revelation hell passages?
Exactly. This is based on human reasoning - not the totality of the Word of God.
Matthew 10:28
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Matthew 23:33
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous to ETERNAL life.”
John 3:36
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath REMAINS on them.
Revelation 21:8
“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
2Thessalonians 1:9
“They will be punished with EVERLASTING destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”
Mark 9:43
“If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire NEVER goes out.”
Jude 1:7
“In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of ETERNAL fire.”
Matthew 13:42
“They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 25:41
““Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Revelation 19:20
“But the beast (and the false prophet) were captured…the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” These are NOT demons, but men.
Revelation 20:13-14
“The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and EACH PERSON was judged according to what they had done.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”
Revelation 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER and ever, and they have no rest, DAY OR NIGHT…”
Does this plethora of verses sound in any way like "ALL will be saved?"
By the way, these are NOT my words, but rather the Bible.
Sorry, guys, but annihilationism really doesn’t cut the mustard.
If the Spirit of God is within every person, and we are members of the body of Christ, then which parts of the body of Christ are to be cut off for this theoretical dismemberment? What part of God would God care to annihilate on the path to self mutilation? There seems to me to be a problem with attempting to do a subtraction from the infinite.
By the way, more fitting description of David Bentley Hart would be that he hits everything out of the ball park to achieve his many home runs. 😉
Can we afford to ignore the possibility of Hell?
My understanding of hell is that it is an eternal spiritual state that is conditioned by your mode of willing in this life. The historic doctrine is that you chose hell. This is against the Western idea that God sends you to hell. God is simply giving you what you chose in this life. Some of the church fathers I have read state that someone who hates God in this life won't be comfortable, nor will he want to be in heaven basking in God's love. The love of God will burn like a fire for those who hate God. People will weep and gnash their teeth over the decisions they made in this life.
Origin was condemned by three Church Councils for his belief in universalism. The reason Origen adopted universalism was his teaching on absolute divine simplicity. ADS denies a NATURE/PERSON distinction in God and human anthropology. ADS is a central doctrine in Platonism. ADS is Plato's doctrine of the Monad. ADS says that NATURE and PERSON are the same thing.
When you mix ADS with the doctrine of Recapitulation, which was taught by the church fathers, you get universal salvation. Recapitulation is the doctrine that all men will be resurrected from the dead because Christ conquers death in universal human nature. Christ is consubstantial with all men because He becomes flesh and identifies with all men in their humanity. If NARURE and PERSON are the same thing then Recapitulation is equivalent to universal salvation. If human NATURE and PERSON are distinct then it is human NATURE which is recapitulated. The book of Hebrews states that "Christ tasted death for every man" It is on this basis that all men are raised. Both the wicked and the righteous. If a PERSON is particular and individual then the principle of individuation applies. Christ did not identify with universal Personhood. He did not become every individual person. Which means that your individual experience will be based on the consequential effects of your individual choices for evil or good. The reason Origen was condemned was because he taught that recapitulation equates to universal salvation. To make that move you have to assume that NATURE and PERSON are the same thing.
I find it interesting that universalism is mostly found in people who follow Origen. Or they belong to a Protestant Chruch. Protestantism makes no distinction between NATURE and PERSON either. Many doctrines in Protestantism are conditions by absolute divine simplicity. So, it's not surprising that Protestants are drawn to Origen and universalism.
Augustine made many mistakes in his theology. His doctrine of original corporate guilt is rooted in the smashing of NATURE into PERSON. Augustine also argues on the Trinity, saying that NATURE and PERSON are the same thing. Augustine's doctrine of the Trinity was also rejected. The Cappadocian doctrine of the Monarchy of the Father was adopted and Augustine's model was rejected. So, there is no doubt that Augustine struggled with the Platonism he came out of. To his credit Augustine said that after all he had written, he left what he had taught to the judgement of the Church.
1:20:00 you said the best argument off the top of your head for infernalism was when you face Jesus he will say I never knew you. I strongly disagree. All this points to is that when people face Him, when they die, whilst thinking they are saved, only to find out they are not, they are cast into Sheol/lower Hades/hell to join the rich man to contemplate their mistakes and self pity whilst they await the 2nd resurrection unto judgement at the Great White Throne of judgement and then are cast into the Lake of Fire which will purify them, purge them, correct them, and lead them back to the Father through Christ ultimately. That fire is the very presence of God who is a consuming fire. That destroys them - their pride, their old man and they are humbled and repent while in that condition. They are then made anew. There is no more curse, the final enemy death is defeated so the 2nd death cannot be neverending if death is defeated. And then finally, as in Adam all die so also in Christ all shall be made alive. So really, Jesus saying I never knew you is a proof there is a coming punishment for the unjust dead only, but speaks nothing of how long that punishment will last! To say it means the punishment never ends is nowhere found in that specific passage.
Also, to add, when He says I never knew you, for such a person being told this, clearly they are the old man, unregenerated, not in Christ. Such a man, while in the state of a withering branch who is not in Christ, while the old man, such a man Christ never knew since Christ is never one with the old man you. Christ only ever knows the born again new creature you that is in Christ. So Jesus is saying I never knew this you, this old man you, this unregenerated carnal you. So then it doesn't even entail He never knew a born again you if you ever were at one point born again but then departed from the faith and were cut off from Christ the vine by the Father the husbandman.
Well said. I argued a similar that you make. My Godfather stated “The story of Lazarus and The Rich man” to make an eternal punishment of hell the rich man.
@@thecarlitosshow7687 yes hades is the location of that story and the Bible says death and hades are cast into the lake of fire after they give up their dead. So this place in that parable is a temporary holding cell awaiting the resurrection, not a permanent abode
@@artbyrobot1 agreed
You're using a parable to form your theology?
Sheol/Hades is the place of the dead. The Bible has been clear throughout thats its a state of sleep, and the dead don't know anything.
My question is what happens to Satan everlasting destruction?
Wouldn't the space between Annihilation and Rejection of God be Self-Hellish?
The quantity of ads is oppressive 😑
If we accept the notion that ultimately all will be saved, this does not negate the fact that sin must be dealt with. You must repent in order to be saved. If you don’t repent God will have to plead with you through punishment until you come to see the error of your ways and repent. All must accept Jesus as there Lord and Savior.
If universalism is true, why would God allow so much human suffering?
Don't you know anything about the second death? There is a second type of death in Scripture that is different from spiritual death, and physical death we experience in this life. The second death this is known as eternal death. In the Book of Revelation we read.
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The one who has an ear, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death (Revelation 2:11).
Unless spiritual death is reversed in this life, the result will be eternal death. This is unending separation between God and all who reject Him. Believers are not affected by the second death.
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Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:6).
The final judgment, or the lake of fire, is the time when the second death occurs.
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Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14).
The second death is reserved for unbelievers. Those who experience this death are all those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life.
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But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
Eternal death, or the second death, is the ultimate form of separation. If a person dies in a state of spiritual death, they enter eternity separated from God. This is the second death. Once a person has experienced the "second death" there is no hope for them, it is irreversible. Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit. Spiritual death, the way all of us are born, is the spiritual separation of each of us from God. Eternal death, or the second death, is the eternal separation of a person from God. There is no escape from the second death. There is no third resurrection mentioned in all of scripture that can bring back the ungodly people! It's over!
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Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Reincarnation is definitely true, that's what God told me in a prayer. Also there are a bunch of people who had NDEs and who confirm that there is reincarnation. But if you blaspheme the holy spirit you are out of the game... Either you spend eternity in hell, because the soul is immortal or you get another chance.. I hope that universal reconciliation is true but i have doubts.
No where does the Bible teach that you or your soul is immortal. In fact, the Bible states that only God possesses imortality, and in another place it says that it is a gift from God given at resurrection. Also, theres zero support for eternal conscious torment when one is serious and does study on it.
So... where left with Annihilation and Universalism that show support.
I'm a former Christian who studied these things for many hours.
So...Hitler gets into Heaven?
Jesus holds the keys to death and hades.
So, Eric Von Evans, by your logic, you must believe that Satan and the Demons will also be Saved. Because if they are not, than God has failed in his project.
You are using limited human standards towards God's purpose.
1 timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of "all" people, and especially of those who believe.
CHRISTIAN universalism is NOT heresy - those who tell you so are LIARS and FALSE TEACHERS. If you have or know a congregation that disagrees, I will HAPPILY debate them and SO CAN YOU by copying and pasting this list:
Scriptural Evidence of the Victorious Gospel
1) Rev 21:3-6
2) 2 Cor 5: 13-21
3) 1 Cor 15:20-28;50-58
4) Acts 3:21; 3:17-26
5) 1 Tim 4:10-11
6) Rom 8:28-39
7) John 5:21-30; 12:44-47
8) Luke 13:23-30; 12:57-59
9) Luke 21:25-28; 33
10) Luke 15
11) Gen 12:3
12) John 8:31-37
13) John 9:5
14) John 15:16-27
15) John 12:23-33
16) Titus 2:11-15
17) Romans 5:12-21
18) Jonah 2:3-11
19) Hosea 6:6; 11:8-11
20) Matthew 17:11-12
21) Ezek 2:1-10; Mt 15:21-28
22) Matt 11:26-27; 20:28
23) 1 Tim 2:6-7
24) Mark 10:45
25) Gal 1:4; 2:20
26) Romans 14:7-9
27) Philippians 2:9-11
28) Luke 20:34-38
29) Hosea 2:25
30) Romans 11:15-24; 32-36
31) 1 Cor 3:15; 21-23
32) 1 Cor 4:5
33) 1 Tim 2:1-4; Matt 6:10
34) Zeph 3:8-20
35) Haggai 2:22-23
36) Zech 8:7-12
37) Mark 11:17; 56:7
38) Mark 9:49
39) Zech 3:1-10; Amos 4:11
40) Is 66:22-24
41) Lk 12:10; Mt 12:24-32; Mk 3:28-30
42) Is 65:25
43) Dn 7:13-14
44) Eph 1:10-14; 18-23
45) Is 37:20-21
46) Is 35:4-10
47) Eph 4:9-10
48) Luke 15:31-32
49) 2 Pt 3:9-13
50) John 17:2
51) Wis 19:21
52) Wis 17:14
53) Gal 3:6-9
54) Jer 34:15-17
55) Ezek 18:4; 32
56) Ezek 16:59-63; 33:11
57) Ezek 37:26-28
58) 1 Cor 13:4-13
59) Hosea 2:1;18;21-25
60) John 1
61) Romans 10:9-13;18
62) Wis 11:23-12:1
63) Wis 12:16
64) Psalm 145 (especially 8-21)
65) Wis 16:5-15
66) Gen 18:17-17-33
67) Ex 19:5
68) Ex 32:11-14
69) Ex 33:18-19
70) Lv 10:3
71) Lv 25:8-55
72) Lv 26:34-36
73) Lv 26:11-13
74) Romans 8:1; Eph 4:10; 1 Cor 1:30
75) 2 Cor 3:14-18
76) Nm 14:17-24
77) Nm 15:15;26-29
78) Dt 4:29-31
79) Dt 7:14-17
80) Dt 9:29
81) Dt 17:12-13
82) Dt 18:9-22
83) Dt 19:16-21
84) Dt 20:19-20
85) Dt 22:1-4
86) Dt 28:10
87) Dt 30:4-14;19-20
88) Dt 32 (esp. 36-43)
89) Romans 8:19-20
90) Romans 9:5-8
91) Gal 4:21-30(esp. 28)
92) Gal 3:29
93) Joshua 2:9-14;17-21
94) Josh 24:3-4
95) Judges 5:31
96) Judges 8:22-23
97) Judges 10:15-16
98) Judges 16:22;28-31
99) Ruth 1:16-17
100) Ruth 2:10-13;3:9-10
101) Ruth 4:14-22
102) 1 Sam 2:6
103) 1 Sam 2:35-36
104) 1 Sam 3:18
105) 1 Sam 14:21-23
106) 1 Sam 12:17-25
107) 1 Sam 17:45-47
108) 1 Sam 18:13-14
109) 1 Sam 30:24-25
110) Is 25:6-9
111) Romans 6:10
112) 1 Cor 5:5
113) Acts 2:38-39
114) 1 Tim 1:15
115) Tobit 13:2
116) Romans (THE WHOLE THING)
117) Col 1:15-29;3:1-4;11
118) Hebrews 9:27-28
119) Heb 8:8-12
120) Jer 31:33-34
121) 1 Thes 4:13-18
122) John 19:30
123) 2 Tim 4:16-18
124) Rev 20:12-14
125) 1 Cor 15:45-49
126) Phil 3:21
127) Eph 4:6
128) Is 45:22-25
129) John 3:16-17
130) Heb 7:25
131) 1 John 2:1-3
132) Rev 11:15
133) Eph 3
134) Philemon 14
135) John 6:35-40
136) Mt 16:16-19
137) Joel 3:1-5; Acts 2:17-21;39
138) John 16:33
139) 1 John 5:1-5;11-13
140) Is 29:22-24
141) 1 John 4:14;18;42
142) John 12:19
143) John 17:13-26
144) 1 Thes 1:10
145) Titus 3:5-7
146) 1 Peter 1:18-19
147) Mt 1:21
148) Romans 5:18-19 (already listed, but esp. these)
149) Ps 18:6-7
150) Ps 120:1
151) Ps 31:23
152) Ps 16:10-11
153) Ps 30:4
154) Ps 22:28-32
155) Lk 1:17
156) Ps 32:1
157) Zech 7:9-10
158) Zech 14:9
159) Micah 6:6-8
160) Micah 7:7-9
161) Is 40:3-5
162) Lk 2:29-32;3:6
163) John 3:35
164) Col 2:9-10;14-15;20
165) Lk 20:37-38
166) 1 Thes 5:9-11
167) Acts 10:42-43
168) 2 Cor 5:10
169) Is 49:18
170) Nm 23:9-10
171) Is 53:11-12
172) Jer 25:30-32
173) Mt 23:23
174) Mt 26:28
175) Joel 4:11-21
176) Rev 5:9-13
177) 1 John 5:19-21
178) Eph 1:18-23
179) Heb 1:1-4
180) Phil 1:21
181) 1 Thes 5:15
182) Jer 31:33-34
183) 1 Peter 2:10
184) Rev 19:13-16;11:15
185) Ps 19:5;8-15
186) Wis 9:1
187) Ps 94:18
188) Ps 86:5;15
189) Ps 146:7-10
190) Ps 103:8-9;11-13;17-18
191) Daniel 3
192) 1 Cor 8:6
193) John 12:47-50
194) Wis 7:29-30
195) 1 Thes 5:4-5
196) 1 John 2:8
197) Mt 24:14;27;30-31
198) Is 28:16;18
199) Acts 10:34-38; 15:9-11
200) Is 65:1-3
201) Wis 11-12
202) Is 41:4
203) Lk 10:22
204) 2 Mc 1:24-25
205) Ex 15:26
206) Dt 32:39
207) 2 Mc 6:12-31;7:23
208) Romans 9:15; 1 Tim 2:3-4
209) Ex 29:45-46
210) Ezek 37:25-28; 2 Cor 6:16
211) Luke 2:1-14 (esp. 10-11)
212) John 1:29
213) Luke 4:14-22
214) John 10:9-11
215) John 14:1-4
216) John 6:51
217) Is 25:6-9
218) Rev 1:18
219) Mt 28:17-20
220) Acts 1:8
221) John 14:16-18
222) Acts 2:32-33
223) John 15:4-5
224) Eph 3:14-19
225) Rev 1:13-17;2:4b-5a;10
226) Heb 13:8
227) Acts 17:29-32
228) Mt 11:28-29
229) 2 Cor 6:2
230) Rev 22:17
231) Is 40:26
232) Ps 115:3
233) Is 41:4;8-10
234) I Chr 29:10-13
235) Luke 1:37
236) Ps 106:8;45-46
237) 2 Pt 1:11;21
238) 1 Tim 3:16
239) 2 Cor 7:10
240) Mt 6:14
241) Eph 5:11-14
242) Ezek 36:26-28
243) 1 Cor 6:11
244) 2 Tim 1:9-12
245) Romans 8:16
246) Is 12:3
247) 1 Pt 1:8-9
248) 2 Thes 1:5-10
249) Lk 6:46-49
250) 2 Cor 3:9-11;2 Cor 2:10-11
251) Mt 10:32-33
252) Ps 23
253) Heb 2:14-15
254) I John 3:8
255) Acts 26:17-18
256) James 1:25;4:7-8
257) Romans 4:23-25
258) Heb 12:14
259) Ps 43:18-20
260) Is 66:2
261) 1 Pt 4:12-13
262) Romans 16:20
263) Is 43:2
264) 1 Cor 10:13
265) Nahum 1:12-13
266) 2 Cor 8:9
267) John 20:21-23
268) 1 John 5:13-15
269) 1 Pt 1:22-25
270) 1 Tim 1:5-7
271) John 15:11-12
272) John 16:22-23
273) John 14:6
274) John 4:24-26
275) John 14:27
276) 1 John 4:9
277) 1 John 4:15-17
278) 1 John 1:7; Heb 9:13-15
279) Heb 13:20-21
280) Heb 6:16-20
281) Acts 16:25-31
282) Lv 16:21
283) Nm 5:5-10
284) Neh 9:5-7
285) Neh 1:6-9
286) Ex 6:5-9
287) 2 Kgs 13:23
288) Rev 3:20-22
289) Ps 67:5-8
290) Ps 66:2-12
291) 1 Cor 2:5;13-16
292) Acts 4:12
293) Is 53:6;11
294) 2 Tim 3:15;4:1-2
295) Acts 20:32
296) Rev 17:14
297) Ps 130:3-4;8
298) 2 Chr 7:13-14
299) 2 Cor 4:11
300) Phil 2:13
301) Lamentations 3:22-24
302) Is 1:18
303) Is 55:1;3;6-13
304) Eph 3:16
305) Phil 4:13
306) Eph 4:5
307) 1 Cor 1:9
308) 1 John 1:3-4
309) 1 Cor 1:30-31
310) 1 Pt 4:7-11
311) Phil 2:15-16
312) 1 Pt 5
313) 1 Kgs 17:17-24
314) 1 Kgs 11:35-39
315) 1 Kgs 8:30;33-34
316) 1 Kgs 8:41-45;59-60
317) 1 Kgs 13:6
318) 2 Kgs 4:3-7;40-44
319) 2 Sam 7:6-17
320) 2 Sam 16:18
321) Job 42
322) 2 Thes 3:3
323) 2 Thes 1:11
324) 2 John 1-4
325) 3 John 1-6 (esp. 5)
326) Hab 3:2-3;13;18-19
327) Mal 3:2;6
328) Esther F:5-10
329) Esther A:8-10
330) 2 Sam 22:6-7;20
331) 2 Sam 23:3-5
332) 2 Sam 24:10
333) 2 Sam 24:14
334) Sir 2:18
335) Sir 15:15-17
336) Sir 16:28
337) Obadiah 17;21 (esp. 21)
338) Amos 9:14
339) Sir 24:8-9;19
340) Sir 36:22;37:25
341) Sir 29:16;34-35
342) Sir 40:11-12;17
343) Sir 42:15-16;18
344) Sir 43:27;33
345) Sir 48:5;11 (incl. 11b, extant only in Greek - “for we too shall certainly live”)
346) Sir 49:16 (“felix culpa” - Latin: “fortunate fault”)
347) Sir 51 (esp. 4-11)
348) Jonah 4
349) Mal 3:6-10
350) Mal 1:2
351) Mal 3:20;23-24
352) Song of Songs (Union of Christ to the Church; our souls)
353) Eccl 3:11-15;22
354) Eccl 7:8
355) Eccl 8:1;11-13
356) Prv 4:20-22
357) Prv 9:11
358) Prv 10:2;12
359) Prv 11:4
360) Prv 13:12-14
361) Prv 14:19;25-28
362) Prv 15:1;4;11;17;24-26
363) Prv 18:17
364) Prv 20:8
365) Prv 21:8;30-31
366) Prv 22:2
367) Prv 23:18
368) Prv 24:11-14
369) Prv 25;21-22;26
370) Prv 26;2
371) Prv 27:20-21
372) Prv 28: 1-5;13
373) Prv 29:4;7;10;12-14; 25-27
374) Ezra 10:44
375) Judith 8:11-16;9:11-14;16:16
376) 1 Mc 2:61-64;12:21-23
377) Ezra 1:5-6
378) Ezra 3:11-13
379) Ezra 8:22
380) Acts 15:16-18
381) Dt 31:6
382) Sir 50:17;22
383) 2 Kgs 5:14
384) 2 Kgs 6:22-23
385) 2 Kgs 13:23
386) 2 Kgs 14:26-27
387) 2 Kgs 17:39
388) 2 Kgs 19:15;19;34
389) 2 Kgs 20:5-6
390) 1 Chr 16:8-36;41
391) 1 Chr 17:8-15
392) 1 Chr 29:30
393) John 14:26
394) John 16:5-15
395) Is 52:7-15
396) Ps 100:5
397) John 6:29
398) 1 Cor 14:22-25
399) Jer 33
400) 2 Chr 6:33
401) 2 Chr 30:18-20
402) Tobit 14:5-7
403) Ps 139:8
404) Enoch 39 1-2
405) Mt 17:24-27
406) Gal 5:1
407) Lam 3:31-33
*Non-Exhaustive*
You have to throw out the bible to buy into universalism.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
I pray 🙏 God will open your eyes and stop the madness heresy manufactured by the Devil! You must take Jesus at his word!
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when JASON EGELAND will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Universalism has answers for all these texts.
@@christophersnedeker Ok debate me! Bring scriptures to the table in order to defend your position concerning universalism? When Jesus speaks please believe him!!! Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Most of these are blanketed passages that could be used against anyone that doesn't ascribe to your views.
I would start with the word "aion". Aion and its derivatives means 1) eternal 2) the world 3) an age. If aion can be defined as eternal and an age, then the definition of the word is its own antonym/opposite. If not defined correctly, one could end up interpreting the text the complete opposite of what the author intended.
Ask yourself...can there be "forever and ever" or "forever more"? Forever in English defies pluralization. You cannot add "and ever" or "more" to a word defined as endless duration. That should be a red flag. A better interpretation in an age, age of ages, or ages of the ages. There are word for word translations where aion is almost always defined as an age. (Young's Literal)
Nowhere in antiquity have we found an example outside of the Bible where aion is interpreted as eternal. My understanding is that aion means eternal when God is the noun being modified, because God is not limited time
Koine Greek has a word that always means eternal. That word is aidios. The authors of the text did not use this word to describe punishment.
Think of it this way. Does great mean eternal? No, but if God is the noun being modified it can be implied. Being eternal is one of the characteristics that makes God great. God adds weight to aion in the same manner.
The term for punishment is kolasis, not timoria. Timoria is vendictive punishment. Kolasis implies correction, like a gardener prunes a plant.
Conflate the two concepts and you have "an age of correction". God will lose no one to an adversary He created.
@@johndalton1043 I don't care about the Greek language! The original language of the Jews is either, Hebrew or Aramaic! When Jesus speaks please believe him!!!! Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
@@OperationReapSinners777 I appreciate the conversation. That's fine if you want to ignore the Greek, although most scholars do not. I think Matthew was originally written in Aramaic if that helps.
So let's look at the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek word aion. That word is olam. Even olam is mistranslated. Most commercial Bibles state Jonah was in the beast "forever". Jesus later clarifies it was three days. Jonah simply lost track of days and nights.
Whether the word is olam or aion, there are clear mistranslations in most commercialized Bibles.
I read through your list. Matt 7 is a problem text for CUs. I don't think it implies finality, but it is a problem text for CUs, so I appreciate the alternate view. I don't have an answer for this text, unless there is no finality being implied. I can only say that I don't define Matthew in a vacuum.
This is because at least 4 different texts state every knee will bow and tongue confess. It's in the OT and NT and it doesn't matter what lexicon you look it up... "Confess" in Revelation means to praise/celebrate. Revelation actually tells us what this praise entails. You will have to ask why people are celebrating. Is it eternal hell? Annihilation? Or if all have been shown mercy? Does mercy really triumph over judgement?
I will say Matt 25:46 is not about eschatology. No where in the parable is grace via faith. It's a parable about dividing nations based on humanitarianism. I noticed you like to use Matthew to define your position,, but was a bit surprised you didn't refer to Matt 25.
I believe Romans 5:18-19 is a problem text...and a serious one. It states, Consequently then, by the offense of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation, thus also by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men to justification. For as by one man's offense the many became righteous, so by the obedience of one shall the many be made righteous.
What is the scope of the first "all"? It is everyone, as Adam is the progenitor of the human race. The "all" must be coextensive in a compound sentence to make sense in English regardless of the language it is translated. Paul actually said the same thing twice. Once in verse 18 and again in verse 19. He echos this in 1 Cor 15:22.
It would take an entirely new sentence to break the scope of the first "all" or "the many". But, Paul links his sentences by saying "thus also" and "so by". If these verses are to be coherent in English...regardless of the language it is translated... the first "all" and "the many" must be synonymous with the second use of "all" and "the many" when used in a compound sentence.
Paul is not a sloppy writer. Broken down in its parallel structure it looks like this.
1) Consequently then / thus also (shows linkage)
2) by the offense of one / by the obedience of one
3) judgement came upon / the free gift came upon
4) all men / all men
5) to condemnation / unto justification
6) For as by / so by (shows linkage)
7) one man's offense / the obedience of one
8) the many were made / shall the many be made
9) sinners / righteous
Regardless of whether this is written in Aramaic or Greek, how do you square these verses with Matt 7? As I admit, Matt 7 is a problem text, so I'm curious to see how you merge Matt with other problem texts.
What I discovered was this...even though there are still a handful of problem texts for CUs, there are a mountain of texts that have to be accounted for if annihilation or ECT is true. For example, John the Baptist states, "Behold the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world." There is nothing in context limiting the scope of "the world", and no addendum is added. It stands as written. If he would have said "the believer" or "the repentant" or "the saved", then obviously I would interpret it much differently. But it isn't hyperbole, or metaphor, or parable, or symbolism. It's in plain language.
I never ask for anyone to agree with me. I only ask for understanding and in return I seek to understand. Some of these concepts are like trying to put a square peg through a round hole. How can God be "all in all" (1 Cor 15) if annihilation or ECT is true? I understand the scripture you're using, but does your interpretation of Matt align with other scriptures? That's what I'm seeking to discover.