Bart Ehrman: Revelations about Revelation... and more
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2023
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A message from Lawrence Krauss for this episode:
I have admired Bart Ehrman’s writing for more than a decade. I remember how profoundly reading Christopher Hitchens’ God is Not Great reminded me of how little I had really understood about the scriptures. For me, Bart Ehrman took over from there. I recalled reading his 2014 masterpiece How Jesus Became God, which made it clear that the modern Western Interpretation of the Holy Trinity differs significantly from the earliest impressions of Jesus, and moreover that the notion of humans intermingling with deities has a long and checkered history. He also made it clear that the Resurrection, perhaps the cornerstone of Modern Christianity, is highly suspect, based on burial traditions at theme.
I have been trying to work out a time to record a podcast with Bart for some time, and was fortunate that his schedule opened up recently, following the publication of his newest book, Armageddon: What the Bible Really Says About The End. This book provides a detailed analysis of the Book of Revelation, and describes how perhaps the most iconic modern interpretation of End Times, The Rapture, is a modern mythological invention and is itself not even scriptural.
In our dialogue we explored Bart’s own intellectual adventure from fundamentalist youth to Biblical Scholar, from true believer to skeptical historian. We then explored some of the most enlightening aspects of his writing. It was a fascinating, entertaining, and informative discussion, and one that I hope will be widely viewed. I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as we enjoyed recording it.
Consider supporting the podcast and the Origins Project Foundation at originsproject.org/
The Origins Podcast, a production of The Origins Project Foundation, features in-depth conversations with some of the most interesting people in the world about the issues that impact all of us in the 21st century. Host, theoretical physicist, lecturer, and author, Lawrence M. Krauss, will be joined by guests from a wide range of fields, including science, the arts, and journalism. The topics discussed on The Origins Podcast reflect the full range of the human experience - exploring science and culture in a way that seeks to entertain, educate, and inspire.
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I am a huge admirer of Dr. Krauss, but he has fallen into the trap that so many professor turned bloggers fall into. He has invited a fascinating and accomplished scholar onto his show, but if you time their two hour plus conversation, you will find that Dr. Krauss does more than 75% of the talking.
First of all, there is nothing more enjoyable than listening to two brilliant scholars mull over complicated subjects in real time. Second, I love that Dr Krauss has this astonishing curiosity about everything in the world around him, and seeks out amazing people to talk with. Third, I love that Dr Ehrman has an incredible understanding of both religious and secular thought and can compare and contrast them in a way anyone can understand.
Bart Ehrman is definitely one of my favorite writers. Such a thoughtful and wonderful human. He truly cares about people, and I feel like no matter where you land on faith, he would just want you to learn and make the decision for yourself. Great stuff as always
The confirmation bias level from Lawrence is similar to religious zealots. Ehrman is not as much.
I feel like no matter where you land on faith, he would just want you to learn and make the decision for yourself.}Any half wit with integrity would probably suges the same thing.Many would say believe nothing. dis believe nothing and don't ignore. Be like Socrates, If you don't know just say you don't know.Have faith in your self .
Ehrman's views and writing has evolved through decades of researching the bible, its historical context and role in the religion(s) of the Levant. A curious an open-minded approach, plus fluency in the original language of the texts gives him a perspective that distinguishes him from the usual "pro or con" camps. He's less concerned with assigning meaning or value to Christian belief, in favor of a clear-eyed grasp of it's active and ongoing place in human history.
He puts on a good public persona, but he's much different than that under the surface. I've noticed pretty much all atheist apologists are that way - sort of two faced.
How are you Under the surface.
Dr Lawrence Krauss is an inspiration , we are so lucky to have access to all this knowledge ...beyond words 😇
He failed to notice how the rationality works.He claimes in a debate that NDE is just brain process. He has no clue about the subject.Not to mention some real phenomens he dont know about,but talks judt nonsense .
Isn't he also a sexual harasser?
Ehrman, along with others, made throwing off the shackles of my faith so much easier. That bit about believing by not reading the Bible carries so much truth.
Contradictions only exist in linear finite thinking . The epistomology of divine revelation is paradoxical and this is where these guys miss it .
lmfao most of Ehrman’s claims are exaggerations or intentionally deceptive. In academic & debate settings with educated opponents, Ehrman’s a completely different man. He relies on friendly echo chambers to shill to unwittingly credulous audiences (like you)
Then again, Ehrman is a saintly Honest Abe compared to Krauss.
Yeah but it's too late. You will meet your end soon just like everyone else because of their belief. You arw aware your scheduled for elimination right?
@@Imahuckleberry God scheduled my elimination?
I really enjoyed this interview. To quote Billy Joel, "Honesty is hardly ever heard, but mostly what I need from you".
This is perfect. Ive been listening to Bart Ehrman all week at work.
I could listen to him all the time
I hope you don't work as a flight controller or surgeon or similar 😅
You should get a job as a critic
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Not meaning to sound religious, but I would say Bart Ehrman has changed my life. His work is vital. He speaks our (the Christian) language. So early on I felt I could trust him more than say a Christopher Hitchens (whom I now love!). I was giving up my identity by walking away from Christianity, and I needed to hear this from someone who understood that.
Welcome to helping the world be a better place by understanding it more realistically/critically/thoughtfully !!
@@onedaya_martian1238 thank you!
You have been deceived my friend. Bart and his opinions are not neccesary the holy graal of the reality. His Master, Bruce Metzger greatest text scholars ever was a christian preacher and a beliver who never denied the truth of the Gospel.
Second,you have to accept a consistent amount of double standart and hipocricy in order to reject some actual facts as:
" Tammy Peterson rosary testimony "And : Exorcism: World leading Psychiatric Authority speaks out " with Richard Gallagher.
Your confortable self sufficiency will not save you in your last day.
@@vickiesyoutube Why did the Jewish leaders want to kill Jesus according to Bart ?
This was a difficult conversation for me to get into. The interviewer was preparing to answer or move into the next question upon Bart almost finishing his respnse. There was very little time from an endless string of conversation that both people were moving through to the next question or statement.
Wiow, wow, wow...listened to Bart for years and still learning new aspects about and from him.
The part about pastors and livelihoods reminded me of the last wedge between Christianity and myself. I never bought the literalist interpretation, and got in trouble in 3rd grade for pointing out that the math on Noah's Ark just didn't work out. I had just seen a documentary about elephants and i knew the amount of food (and poo) from just 2 elephants for 40 days would have filled that boat....lol
Anyway, back on topic, i went to church up into high school because my friends did (and the pastor's middle daughter was my age and hot lol). But her dad was very much "god doesn't care what music you listen to" kind of more liberal brand of Christianity in a little town in WV.
The church fired him and since they owned his house, they threw he, his wife, and their three kids out of their home. In the middle of winter. I had gotten my first paycheck from my job and me and my buddy went and bought them groceries... i was so pissed. Never did go back.
But did you get off with the daughter?
@@robinharwood5044 lol. No. It wasn't destined to be. :D I was trying my damndest though!
@@jasonGamesMaster Ouch. I think we’ve all been there.
@@jasonGamesMaster My first wife was a PK (Preachers Kid) she cheated on me while I was in the Army. I literally paid for her car and her 1st two years of college and she started messing around with one of her classmates. Started out as allegedly "study sessions" and after I literally went up to her job to borrow "her" car as mine was in the shop over a w/e (she worked at a restaurant inside a holiday inn at the time) only to find the guy she cheated on me with worked with her at the restaurant. He even had the same first name as mine. 😂 You probably dodged a bullet my friend.
@@ToddWaid1 lol. I have literally no idea. This was before FB etc, so I've not heard anything about them since they moved away
The “unknown known” is a bold concept that
Rumsfeld(US secretary of state) defines as
“the things that you think you know that it
turns out you did not”.
See Zizek and the 4th category - the unknown known. Things you know but don't know that you know.
I'm a physicist and in physics there is not absolute agreement even in the fundimentals, at some point it becomes belief in particular guys the seem to predict better than others. Bart Ehrman is being straight, you are being evangalical in your science perspective.
and its told as.... and we get the parrots screaming at those that dare to ask... just ask....
its a sad very sad state of affairs. how many generations will be wasted in order to sustain this stupid system? anw nice to hear from you😎✌🍻
This was one of the best Ehrman chats I’ve heard in a long time. I have been a student of his for many years and I know his material fairly well. With Lawrence’s input and intellectual capacity, this was very informative. More like this, please. It opens things up so much more than all the youngsters interviewing him.
Fantastic discussion. I’m just about to finish Armageddon and I’m a near 52 year old college educated person who was raised Southern Baptist, and I had no idea the rapture was a 19th century invention🤯
Them thar Southern Baptists need more revelatin' of the covered up misdeeds they've been up to. Voting to keep women from preaching was a sign that they don't need no stinkin' enlightenment.
Me too. I learned of the rapture through bible studies with Jehovah's Witnesses as a child so I guess there were added parts. I've shaken my faith long ago and I too had a bad experience with a very poor teacher of science in High school and later in life discovered Science fiction that inevitably got me reading science books and devouring biographies of Darwin and a penguin-book of the Feinmen Lectures and others. I am so grateful to discover only relatively recently that scholarship had been long critiquing Christianity and being very slow to the use of today's pervasive technology I nevertheless have become an avid UA-cam subscriber of a host of young bible scholars who all reference Dr Ehrman a great deal. SO I am very grateful for his work and in particular his recent debates that have given me the courage of my current convictions as an aetheist, and a happy one at that. Many people owe him a debt of gratitude that can never be repaid. I wish him well as millions see more of him through channels such as yours, thank you for bringing this to us.
my Mom warned me when I was a kid thankfully. She had a good handle on literary criticism of the Bible even tho she was a Baptist and still believes in a kind god at 82. Unfortunately she married a narcissistic psychopath who targeted me so I clearly could see prayers didn’t work. I never could be a believer but I tried.
@@beastshawnee Hugs through the internet. Undo the damage by showing the love that should never be lost because of evil.
I hope Bart does more interviews with religious apologists with a more religious base.
It seems to me, that Kraus’s audience does not need more convincing that the Bible is unreliable.
People from outside the field of Christian history starting to realize what an absolute, mind-blowing masterpiece of a book is "How Jesus Became God". I've been saying this for years, it's one of the best books ever written.
Its more inerrant than the Bible? 😂
Would you say it's the greatest story ever told? 🤔
@@mojoman2001 No, because that would leave the impression he's just writing some story - however great. I say it's one of the best books written, because it has so many remarkable elements masterfully combined.
@@mojoman2001"How Jesus became God" is a book with whom I am well pleased.
@@rexrambo7686 not to mention having to deal with the whore of Babylon (she actually sounded like a fun date).
Fascinating conversation, thank you Lawrence Krause and your guestBart Ehrman💐🙏🏽
Dr Krause, I’ve learned so much from your videos, including those beautiful five minute videos during COVID time, to your conversations with other scientists, thank you very much 🙏🏽
I liked the agonistic/atheist comparison. It seems to me that atheism tends to come off as the faith-based version of agnosticism. The fervor of Hitchens, Dawkins, Gervais, etc, don’t do atheism any favors. I like agnostic; there’s nothing to get on a soap-box about.
Whenever Lawrence writes or speaks, I'm there.
I was just a kid at the time, though I still remember seeing a provocatively titled book sitting on my father's desk. Seeing as though my father was a chemist, the majority of books he read seemed too intellectually intimidating for my teenage mind, but I decided to give this one a try...A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. My Scientific journey had begun.
Nothingness does not create something. No matter how many times you multiply 0, 10*0^infinity, it will never give you 1. Simple logic. For there to be a Universe, something, an entity must have created it. That entity must have a will, power, knowledge, etc. to make a Universe from Nothing.
*The Question is, what is that thing, Entity, Alien, God, and what is the wisdom behind their creation of this universe?*
@HajiIsse I would have thought so too, but in the case of electromagnetism, the ability to do work i.e energy is not the product of a simple binary process yielding quantities of zeros and ones. Instead, work is enabled through the creation of energy gradients or potentials. A positive and negative charge kept at a distance produces a gradient in the space between them. When those positive and negative charges are brought back together, the product is 0. Check black holes and Quantum field Theory. Too much to explain here, but we seem to be living in the space between those dipoles siphoning energy from the gradient until they cancel once again.
It is, in my opinion, that after many years of studying in Hebrew/Aramaic that whatever has happened, Christianity is not it. The Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible can not both be correct. Can't put much faith in any religious literature created by man anymore so ya, that's all of it.
@mylittleelectron6606
Something we take for granted is the existence we are in. Imagine we have energy, granted. Now imagine that energy creating 3D existence. Let us use an example we can think of. Energy creating a virtual game with pathetic graphics and lame story with start and ending?
Possible?
Not in a quadrillion million years.
Let us say, it is not Christianity, Judaism. So many contradictions on top of the fact that there is a lack of proof for their authenticity.
Where can one look into for purpose?
@@HajjiJesusif you actually read the book, you'd know that the "nothing" mentioned isn't actually the colloquial meaning of nothing. it doesn't mean the universe came from literally nothing.
Great conversation and I too love listening to them but I wish Lawrence Krauss didn't interrupt at times
Thank you both. Wonderful work.
Compliments to you, Lawrence, regarding your style of questioning making for an interesting interview. In the little I've seen of you over the years, mostly in debates, you've struck me as a decent fellow who doesn't get too much into the mud in disagreements. Perhaps it is your smile and charm and sense of shared humanity that works for me. Anyway, if you ever see this, take it as a compliment. From a Believer ( who isn't afraid to wrestle over and through hard pushback on Christianity from anyone, Non-Believer AND Believer ).
Two of my favorite writers and intellectuals. I liked how Lawrence dug a little deeper into Bart's thought processes than other interviewers have. But I really liked the very end, with Bart saying that being a good person and doing good things was inline with what he believes the historical Jesus fundamentally taught. And Lawrence agreed.
So did a thousand and one, deluded prophets thought and talked like Jesus around the ssme era!
There's absolutely no way anyone *knows* what a guy we call jesus (not his name) actually said or taught. No one during his supposed life ever wrote anything down nor are there any contemporary records of him. Everything about him comes long after his supposed death. Stories certainly were made up and passed around and got more and more fantastic and eventually some Greek writers wrote some of them down. In fact, over 40 gospels were written and most of them are so ridiculously fantastical that even those who put the NT together couldn't take them serious. All we know about Paul is that he heard some stories and became a believer but he never met the guy and we don't know how honest he was in his letters, a number of which have been proven forgeries.
@rhondah1587 agreed, Christianity is a mess. Just another creation of man, folly, really. After 50 years, Christianity has become sickening to me with all the time and energy spent on lies.
@@rhondah1587 couldn't agree more. Well articulated myfriend!
You’re forgetting that Paul did meet Jesus, multiple times…in his head.
I loved this discussion! Thank you both😊
I couldn’t tell if there was some sort of delay, but you gotta give them time to answer the question.
The consistent interruption of the guest was disjointing.
My ultimate rejection of my Evangelical Christian faith came to me as a very young child who began to read before kindergarten. I got permission from my mom to read books from her book club and books which were classic fiction. All these books - which were not science fiction - were pulled from the authors’ imagined experiences but culled from their own real life experiences; those writings represented examples of a vast variety of religions and cultures of the world. As this reading progressed with my age and education what still hung in my mind was that religions in particular were very diverse and competitive and conflicting. This taught me that religion was one key way humans try to form concepts that explain life after death and that identifying theories about life and death gave them hope and conceptual certainty. However it also taught me that saying one religion is better than another is a fallacy. Religion is simply one way humans have progressed in understanding life and death. The fact that religions vary so much, to my way of thinking, calls all of them into question.
Now come to Islam
@@jingojingo1 If you actually read the post you would know that will not happen with ANY religion, even Islam.
@@sharonhearne5014 what will no happen?
They are conflicting only on the surface. The outer layer is indeed very different from one religion to the next - they use different terms, different images, etc. But once you get away from the scholastic and more into the mystical writings, they seem to all come together to a great degree, regardless of the tradition.
Mystics of the whole world speak the same kind of language. They all talk about the Absolute, that which is ineffable, which cannot really be talked about or put into words (which is why apophatic theology is a thing - the idea that the Divine is best talked about by what it is not).
They speak about the unity and Oneness of being, which is reliably said to be more fundamental than our perceived multiplicity. Another reocurring theme is the ontological importance of love as the force which binds the multiplicity of being into said unity.
All of this refers to, for all intents and purposes, God - the single most widely misused term that I know of.
Once you've had a mystical experience, all the major world religions, especially from the point of view of their respective mystics, start to make sense to you.
@@candaniel what?
No mention of Revelation until 1 hour and 21 minutes in.
What a wonderful discussion.
Over the past year, I've dedicated 12-hour days and 6½-day weeks to writing a book bathed on faith (or lack thereof). My efforts include hundreds of hours of research. Dr. Ehrman's works have been a big part of my investigation. Lawrence Krauss brought out the very best in Dr. Ehrman. The knowledge you two possess is mind-blowing, so much so that I want to quit my work because it will never reach your level. But too much is invested, so I'll soldier on. In this post, I'm trying to say that you two created an outstanding video. Thank you, and I'd love to see more from you two together.
Dr. Krauss and Dr. Ehrman together? Epic crossover.
So great to hear Ehrman point out that a lot of people who do awful things in the name of religion are really just doing them for some other reason and are using the religion as an excuse. I think it's because they are angry and they have suppressed the real reason for their anger (my guess is mostly sexual frustration). But I also think there have been many "good" people who have acted with violence (usually in war) who have gotten swept up in it because other people in their religious tribe all think it's the right thing to do.
The whole idea of the thousand years of the 3rd Reich was based on revelation's prediction of the Christian Millennium and the speeches at the time of its growth invoked Jesus's name. But one has to have the translations of the German to read that...and evangelicals would be horrified to check into that.
Violence is wrong.
No such thing as holy wars.
People have used religion in order to subconsciously justify contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, unfair and invalid) comparison for centuries. Particularly, though not limited to, the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
dont ever talk that broadly over someone like that. because you aimed that at me. thats WHO theyure aiming at. believe waht you want or whatever but theres all kinda levels of death. youll get em all and Ill walk on all of em., wont effect me. YEA RUIGHT MAN WE DONT BELIEVE YOU WE ONLY BELIEVE IN SATAN AND NON LOCALITY> SCIENCE AND GRAVITY. OR STUPID AUTHOR OF CONFUSION THAT WANTS TO RAPE AND ROBYOU FOR YOUR IDENTITY FOR HIS EOPL
What a fruitful conversation! I'm going to have to listen to it more than once to glean all I can from it. Love both of these men and their dedication to rationality and scholarship.
you used the right word fruitful not Hot Dogs or Pizza!
Excellent conversation. Really enjoyed the seriousness of the discussion and the way Lawrence allowed Bart to hold the floor of the discussion. Lastly, they’re was no attack on religion just stating why they disagreed with Christianity and some of their reasonings for doing so. Very well done and hope to hear many more discussions such as these.
L0😊😅
Ehrman and Krauss. Two of the greatest minds on the internet
Just stumbled on this. Excellent when two intellectuals get together.
2 titans who can discuss a particular topic - Revelations - from their field of expertise...melding science and history together.
I'm being pedantic I know but it gets my goat whenever anyone calls it ''Revealations'' when it's ''Revealation'' singular not plural.
I like that Laurence had actually read the material he was talking about of Bart Erhman's, that's good and shows
I kept wondering when he said Revelations if it wasn't just Revelation.
Thank you Bart and Krauss. Wonderful discussion ! Keep up the good work.
No education eh?
I love this, Dr Krause’ spherical cow and weighing of the Universe is a perennial favourite and Dr Ehrman is excellent
Excellent - big fan of Ehrman & his work and long standing fan of Krauss- looking forward to this.
Thank you guys! I love me some Bart now and then. Amoung awesome quotes here I'm gonna def use that Apollo story (somewhere halfway through) that sounds like you're describing Jesus and the bible and ends with, "but no one knows about these books". That was awesome.
Not Apollo, Apollonius of Tyana 😆
I didn’t know you had a podcast! Subscribed. So funny I ended up finding this through Bart Ehrman
Lawrence should conduct one interview without ever referring to himself just to see what he thinks of the result.
It is irritating when everything is positioned in relation to him. He has a bit of a messianic complex.
@@yp77738yp77739
The interviews would be better if just let the guest talk about their subject, IMHO … my favorite interviewers line up questions and let them talk.
@@lonelycubicle these are dialogues, not interviews
u are correct he's too into himself
@@TheOriginsPodcastif they are then make it a dialogue
I am going to buy the book today. I already have most of Ehrman's other books and all are enlightening and a delight to read and won
Lawrence is just such a source of comfort to me. I used to listen to Hitchens and miss him terribly. Now I have Laurence to fill the gap. Every podcast is a jewel. Thank you! Enjoyed this!
That was very well done!
"Uniformitarianism" is probably the word Ehrman was looking for. Roughly it is the theory that all of geological processes have occurred in an uniform and continuous way with no radical discontinuities or abrupt appearances out of nowhere.
Yes, that was the word. But what you describe is probably gradualism that's part of Uniformitarianism as concept in geology. The more general use of the term is to express that the laws of nature in the present have been the same in the past.
Yep. I was screaming it at my my phone. Along with Revelation, Lawrence, not Revelations!
@@ddavidjeremy That's almost as bad as 'evidences'.
Brilliant conversation.
It's so interesting to see these two individuals talk, as I am familiar with both of them from their different fields. I have always considered them both to be a bit of jerks. Not from malice, but from the social awkwardness that comes from devoting oneself to a singular pursuit. While I kinda dislike them both, I also love them both because their intellectual honesty, rigor, and love of all things real and meaningful is undeniable. This was a real gem to find.
I have the same thought
Hate to be the bearer of neutral news, but getting a PhD, working at a research university, and writing books has a lot to do with focus and devotion to topics.
@@nikolaiiscoolguyproduction4807 are you claiming they're justified in being Jerks? Cause there are plenty of other people who have achieved the same that I don't get the same vibe from.
@@theintrnationlst I'm not entirely sure what you mean by jerk. I could kind of see the case for Krauss, but I'm especially curious about Ehrman.
@@nikolaiiscoolguyproduction4807 noun: jerk; plural noun: jerks
DEROGATORY•INFORMAL
a contemptibly obnoxious person.
I've watched a lot of Ehrman, as a guest on other peoples channels and on his own Misquoting Jesus channel. He is very smart and usually right, but he takes a particularly dismissive and arrogant (his laugh) attitude in considering other's positions. Now, I'm not saying either he or Krauss are monsters, and in both cases it doesn't show much in this particular video, what I'm saying is I have always considered both of them to be a BIT of jerks. It doesn't empirically mean they actually are, it's just my impression, and I found it interesting to hear them converse.
One gave me understanding of gravitational waves with neutron stars while the other has given me great insight to a ancient Harry Potter story. A fantastic meet up!!!
Stellar conversation! Thank you.
Even though this is a discussion and not so much an interview, I do wish that Lawrence would stop interrupting so much and cutting Burt off when he is trying to talk and, yes, hogging the spotlight so to speak. I do like the discussion (and the podcast in general) very much. Thank you 🙏
Thank you so much for this. I am a fan of you both. 😊
Whale, Krause would do well to let his guest do the bulk of the talking, especially when it is one as articulate and knowledgeable as Ehrman. Nothing has more impact than an insider "expat" who can accurately deconstruct a cultic empire as widespread and powerful as is christianity. Ehrman has the data and knows how to present it without a running commentary from a less knowledgeable "outsider." A good interviewer doesn't "lead" the conversation, but simply nurtures it. The guest is the focus.
Great Convo!
Fascinating discussion between two very intelligent and well-educated men. The comments to this discussion are even more fascinating.😇
Fantastic! Glad that you two finally got together.
Great conversation! Really engaging throughout.
I don’t so much have a problem with Lawrence talking about himself as much as I do the constant interruption. Things would be worlds better if he just waited to the end of a sentence to respond.
Great conversation! One point that always seems strange to me: I don’t know why we need to invoke visions in order to explain the resurrection. To me it seems more plausible that the followers of Jesus were simply in great shock after the crucifixion and intentionally created some sort of resurrection narrative in order to keep the movement alive.
i used to think that until it was revealed to me 49 years ago .
@@RocketKirchnerI don’t think anyone ever gets a revelation that is completely different from one’s own life experiences
Much of that interpretation, or, at least, the perpetuation of that interpretation can be credited (or blamed) on the Apostle Paul . It's been my impression when listening to my Southern Baptists friends over 7 decades of life that they're more in thrall to the ideas of Paul than they are to the teachings of Jesus. He was the one who made all the nitpicking decisions about what Christianity should be and he seemed to do it on the fly responding instantly by firing off a letter here and there when the locals started bickering. That's the source of much of today's political garbage, IMO.
Say what you will about Thomas Jefferson but I think he was right on track when he cut out all the supernatural stuff out of the gospels and concentrated on the actual humanitarian and ethical teachings of Jesus. It was a literal, physical cut and paste job done with scissors and glue that came to be known as the "Jeffersonian Bible". I'm sure that most here know about it. If not, there's Google of course.
@@olphartus5743totally agree about all that supernatural stuff. One can have respect for Jesus without believing in god. The gullible part of the population, however, is blinded by all the miracles and the fairytale character of the Jesus story - god who is on the side of the victim and offers protection. What most people don’t realize is that god is also the perpetrator, the mastermind behind the slaughter of innocent children in Bethlehem and the killing of millions of Jews during the Holocaust.
*Agnostic Atheist* 👍
Bart’s definitions are probably the most common usage and what I expected considering his knowledge of Greek.
I love the Bart man. No better scholar on Christianity. The BEST JERRY...the best
Love Bart Ehrman. First encountered him via The Teaching Company (now called Great Courses). Thanks for this upload!
Thanks, very interesting
Wonderful guest
I wonder if Bart damaged his teeth from having to politely ignore Krauss's repeated references to [The Book of] RevelationS 😁
I watched the entire 2 hours and 10 minutes to see if Bart would correct his mispronunciation, but he never did. As you point out, there is no "s" in the name of the Book of Revelation.
What is the unit of measurement - the Job? - which describes Dr Ehrman's forbearance in not screaming "REVELATION, LARRY, REVELATION! NOT REVELATIONS!" Really enjoyable discussion.
How to contact?
Thanks!
I love your podcast.
Do you know what happens the second after Death?
If you had any inclination you wouldn’t be supporting this. Jesus is real and can set you free
Two of my favourite people!! Great interview/chat.
Fantastic conversation!
I could only watch about an hour of this. Bart was very patient with the interviewer and could hardly get a word in edgewise. The interviewer’s questions were all over the map. He talked extensively about himself and his views. It was exhausting! I never made it to the review of Bart’s book. I’ll look elsewhere for that.
This podcast gives a wide and deep view of different aspects of life and universe. Thank you sir.
Expect a conversation with the world renowned electrochemist Prof. Donald Sadoway @ MIT and about his sustainable electrochemical research trajectories.
My science teacher sent me to the master of her dept for whipping. That's my experience of science in secondary school. The art of discipline. The more I was disciplined the more I rebelled. Now I'm 70, I see the art of avoiding.
Two of my heroes... together !
And I have treasured books by both of these important people.
We are blessed.
What an enrapturing discussion!
...I'll see myself out.
46:26 Exactly what I am trying to do! The word "believe" is almost irrelevant to me. Istead I try to use "trust", and it works perfectly. : )
Trust in what?
@@Isaac5123 What ever someone tries to tell me. I may trust you if you can make your case.
@@oldtimer7635 yes very good. The trouble with the NT is that once a certain passage is found to be untrue it makes everything else untrustworthy
@@Isaac5123 Yes, if one thing is wrong, say virgin birth, then why not an empty tomb? Why a tomb at all since as discussed in the video Romans did not release the body,they left it up there.
@@pinball1970 yes exactly. The translation of the word virgin in Isaiah is wrong. It's not virgin at all it's young woman yet it is plagiarised as that in Mathew but its not true. Take the last 12 verses of Mark. They are a later addition. I really don't believe Jesus said to Peter feed my sheep after Peter denied him 3 times its laughable . I would challenge anyone to handle snakes and drink poison its stupid as the added verses of Mark states
It is Revelation, not Revelations. It is a revelation of Jesus Christ: singular.
Its a revelation of some heat stroke victim in Greece that should not have been part of that stupid anthology called a bible.
I have a similar story as to how I became an Atheist. I had started going to bible summer camp because a girl I really liked recruited me (she had no intrerest in me at all other than I added her another feather to her wings). Once there I found they had a big fair at the end of Summer for which I could earn tickets by studying the bible. I studied the hell out of the bible and ended up with a big bag of tickets. Far more than I could even use, so during the fair I was handing them out to my friends. All that studying caught the attention of the church leaders who them picked me as a candidate for Christian Leadership training. I did start to take an interest in the subject because I enjoyed reading and studying anyways. However, I was also a very analytical kid. I had long ago figured-out that all the childhood stories of Christmas, Easter, tooth fairies, and such were crap (this really displeased my Parents). Well while reading the bible I noticed the different stories about the same events, the immense lack of consistent morality (I had already become highly interested in good vs bad behavior because of my disfunctional home and the comic books I loved reading were filled with some pretty good morality. So I started questioning what I was reading in the bible. Later, dissatisfied with Christianity I looked at other Religions which for the most part I found no better. I did really like the original teachings of Confucius and some elements of other religions. By the Time I was in my early 30's I had to face the fact that I was a definite Atheist, even though at that time it was pretty unpopular.
Did it ever cross your mind that the bible might have been written as spiritual allegory? Especially the gospels? I just can't understand how anyone can look at our world and how it operates, it's beauty, it's functionality, it's perfection and believe it's all just happened on a fluke.
@@RoseSharon7777Check out video advice UA-cam on the bible. When we are told the bible is the Word Of (from GOD) GOD, we expect it to be Perfect and without error. Anyone who is Sincere in heart, to know The Creator of life, it's very devastating or hard hitting when you find out the material isn't Necessarily the Truth. However, there is plenty TRUTH within the pages to be Inspired to SEEK THE FACE OF GOD personally in prayer. Religious Organizations were designed by the Enemy of Our Soul, to trap mankind into Worshiping IT! Always consider the source when Believing anything. I learned more from The TORA materials, used to construct The Old Testament (first 5 books) of the Bible than anything. GOD Conscience is what lets us KNOW Right from Wrong as children. It's how we respond to IT, that matters. GOD is Everywhere and it's up to us to SEEK HIM OUT. It's sad to hear Bart walked away from his experience as a child. All because he found out the errors, additions and subtractions of the Constructed book called bible. The Serpent has created an Object using God's Words mixed with its own twist, in order to Fool the people again! Same trick used in the garden.🤔 Jeremiah 31:33 is the New Covenant message that Jesus brought to mankind.
@@RoseSharon7777 Your third sentence doesn't follow the previous two. It's a black and white fallacy. There are many more options than either the Bible is right even as a spiritual allegory or the world was a fluke. Also the world is nowhere near perfect. In fact it's so far from perfect that it's wild to even suggest that
@@getasimbe Actually the creation story is full of allegorical metaphor. However, that doesn't negate the reality of a supernatural creation. I.e. the the first several days had no sun moon and stars therefore no 24 hr clock of time passage. I.e. the snake in the garden was not a literal snake but was metaphor for mans carnal nature vs his God nature, (good vs evil). The covering of animal skin after they sinned (trying to be like God) was metaphor for them losing their glory and were now spiritually naked. Etc. The gospels are also full of metaphor that was not literal in a physical sense. The virgin daughter of Zion is not a woman named Mary and the only miracle conception is when ANY person repents and they are begotten of the Fathers incorruptible seed which is his spirit that forms in our hearts. Giving birth to a new spiritual man, the miracle birth. Christ is born Everytime a person is born of God's spirit. Christ is simply the Greek word "annointed" or "anointing". The Catholic Church literalized a spiritual story. The OT and NT is full of hyperbole, metaphor, simile, parable, idioms that most people today don't comprehend because it's an ancient type of literature no longer used much.
@@RoseSharon7777 What does any of this speculation have to do with my reply to you?
Amazing comments Lawrence. You and Bart did a great service for people to break down what they think, what they believe and how they act
Wow, really glad this showed up on my subscription box, a wonderful meeting of intelligent minds.
Great interview. Love Ehrman but never heard him so honest. Again, great interview ❤
I find it really fascinating that despite having once been able to speak in tongues, Bart is now an agnostic.
In the 1980s, I read a book titled "Apocalypse Now." (In case you're wondering, it bore no relationship to the movie). Its premise was that "Revelation" describes the archetypal struggle between good and evil that is ongoing within the souls of us all. I'd add that it's my contention that many Biblical stories, such as the Garden of Eden one, fit that motif, as well.
What a great interview! Two intellectual giants in today's world. Charming and informative. Thanks Lawrence for bringing this biblical scholar to the for front. We all should hear this him and what he has to say/
Nice discussion! I hope, Lawrence, that you'll also have one with a believing orthodox Christian scholar. That might make for a more challenging and interesting excange. For example: NT Wright (arguably the leading New Testament scholar), Paul Maier, Daniel B. Wallace, David Bentley Hart. Of course, Christian (and Jewish, etc) faith cannot be proved or disproved in the way the scientific method proves and disproves things. Which does not mean that people don't have "evidence" for their faith in God.
Yes it does, by definition. All they have is a subjective experience.
Having a believer would likely not be interesting at all for the same reason. It’s hard to have a conversation with someone who only has a story they can’t substantiate or provide evidence for. It’s like listening to some tell you about their dream, boring and fairly useless.
How many assumptions can you count in what you wrote?
@@eyesee9715 you may be right, but ain’t it funny that you and these other apologists have all this “evidence” but never produce it?
Bad on me for assuming that means it ain’t evidence.
But you could correct me instead of dodging and insinuating, and just show one of these convincing bits of as you say “so-called” evidence.
@@ihatespam2 well I don’t consider myself an apologist but I do have plenty of evidence that sustains my faith in God and Jesus Christ, just nothing that would convince you of anything, nor is that my concern. My comment was for Lawrence to consider having a conversation with a NT scholar like the ones I mentioned who analyze the evidence and arrive at different conclusions than do Lawrence and Bart E who are already pretty much in alignment with each other as skeptics. DB Hart, though, is not a NT scholar but philosopher of religion and a practicing Orthodox Christian who wrote a book on God that’s pretty interesting. Its great for 2 skeptics to talk and agree with each other and for two believers to talk and agree, I just think it would be a bit more interesting for a skeptic and a believer to discuss these matters, not in an acrimonious debate as you seem to be inclined toward, but in a conversation to understand as Lawrence tries to do.
@@eyesee9715 well, I appreciate your point, but I don’t see where asking someone who says they have evidence to report the evidence, is acrimonious. Nor do is see wondering why you converse, but dont have any concern about whether your experience is relatable to other people, which I would assume is the sign of being inclined toward seeking reality as opposed to just sharing a subject experience, is anything but an honest question.
Such a wonderful conversation!
This is good so far! And having read the comments and knowing this is a podcast/discussion/hangout type of thing, you did interrupt him after asking him a couple questions and in my opinion (who cares about my 2 cents) I think people interested in this topic are intelligent enough to notice, but might still be a bit lacking in Internet etiquette. You know how people would rather insult, that give a constructive criticism.
Honestly it didn’t bother me much you did it, I interrupt people too. Hopefully you pulled it in, but I will see as I watch!
George Carlin put it perfectly: "Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago."
LOL!!! I agree 100% with Carlin. Carlin certainly has a way with words.
Well, you may be right, or things are better this way for a reason we can't know or comprehend. Not a Christian, just thinking around.
@@dirtypickle77 I am born/raised Catholic. The usual western perception of "god" as the architect and magic "gimme what I want" giver is very wrong and leads to the conclusion Carlin draws. I do believe part of the human experience on Earth includes a sense of other, and involves mystery, curiosity, longing and awe. Some codify this as god.
@@jacuz169 This is called 'the god of gaps fallacy' and that's exactly what it is: a fallacy. You can't just pull 'magic' out as an explanation every time you don't understand something.
One of the best podcasts I've listened to in a while.
I enjoy listening to good conversation rather sometimes than an interview and I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation
A lot of us had a 'born again' experience at around 15. But I soon realized speaking in tongues and healings were just theater. I tthink of the experience as a vaccination.
I can hardly sit through this. I would love to see an interview with Dr. Ehrman where the interviewer doesn't interrupt him to talk about their own life and opinions. Megan Lewis is about the only one who seems able to manage it.
💯
Wow, your right
Wow, you're really rude. You could just listen to his actual content, he does lectures and online classes n shit
@@snuggldungeonwow you should understand what the comment means.
@fogsmart yeah, totally ignoring many of his podcast appearances, appearances on Paulogia who's channel is very well structured and lets Dr. Ehrman talk, etc. My point is that the problem is a sort of tunnel vision that happens where people only see certain interviews etc due to increasingly complex algorithms curating content and the rise of shortform media removing necessary context. This creates little microniche echo chambers that can be divisive to communities as a whole. It's usually not too harmful, but can snowball. Just branch out. There are other good interviews with the Dr.
Oh, awesome! I didn’t even get the notification for this. Glad I happened to log on. ❤
T u Muslim yet?
And Amen from me to Barts conclusion. 🙏🏻
My Priest probably turned me into an Anti-theist because he could not. It was long before the Clergy Project! But he said things that led me there. It is wonderful to listen to the discussion on Revelations, someone I was close to seemed to base his belief on that!
I think perhaps that Lawrence Krauss is blinded by science when he states that knowledge can only be derived from the scientific method. I may not think that Romeo and Juliet are real people that actually existed but I can still discover meaning, understanding, and great wisdom by reading Shakespeare; the kind of knowledge that you could never find through the scientific method.
You must have missed the bit where Krauss differentiates empirical knowledge from wisdom, allowing that both have value in their own ways.
As someone who has had a career in science and has become interested in biblical scholarship, I found this a very enlightening conversation. I am familiar with the work of Bart Ehrman and other popular biblical scholars and find this field to be burgeoning and thriving as an area where there is a clear effort to involve and interest the public. This is in contrast to popular science which seems intent on making its subject increasingly mysterious, magical and inaccessible to untrained readers and viewers at the same time as it is becoming dogmatic, authoritative and intolerant of challenges.
I’m also surprised about Laurence’s apparent blindness to aspects in which modern, big ‘S’ Science is very similar to a religion. For example, he seemed to be oblivious to the parallels between modern scientists and the priests of the past when he asked why people believe what they are told by ‘experts’ who are considered authorities who have access to their own special language; Latin when the Church was supreme, advanced mathematics now. Nor did he notice that the end of the world is a feature of Science as much as of religion. He even bemoaned the attention Evangelists give to the Rapture instead of his own doomsday story, the climate crisis.
I also noticed that Bart is far more charitable than Laurence to people of faith even though the Biblical scholar has far more grasp on the fallacies of Christianity. In fact, Laurence seemed to spend much of the ‘interview’ asserting his own position and grasping at opportunities to demonstrate how stupid theists’ beliefs are. I think that a scientist who writes what amount to bad philosophy books should notice his own glass house before pronouncing on others’ beliefs even if they aren't rational.
Finally, Bart didn’t mention here that John doesn’t mention Jesus or Christ explicitly in the Book of Revelation and it is possible that he wasn’t actually a Christian but rather a Jewish apocalypticist like Jesus himself, albeit a more fire and brimstone one.
There are peopaul that don't believe the Bible. Apparently you do
@@herminepursch2470Apparently, you didn't understand anything I said.
Excellent observations. Very good points
The biggest difference is that science does not proclaim fact, it attempts to disprove theories. And anyone can do this, it doesn't matter there pedigree. Religion begins with a conclusion and tries to find evidence that supports it. Totally opposite.
@@neilcreamer8207 I reread what you said.
And I apologize.
That's some good looking eyeware. Are those Oliver Peoples frames?
PLEASE TELL ME WHY the book is not named Ehrmageddon I am very upset
I'm shermer I don't know.
Be sure to pick up Bart's book "Ehrmageddon". It's a nice dive into biblical ehrmaneutics.
Brilliant! I think you may have coined "ehrmaneutics," as there were no hits on a web search.