Bart Ehrman: Revelations about Revelation... and more
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
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A message from Lawrence Krauss for this episode:
I have admired Bart Ehrman’s writing for more than a decade. I remember how profoundly reading Christopher Hitchens’ God is Not Great reminded me of how little I had really understood about the scriptures. For me, Bart Ehrman took over from there. I recalled reading his 2014 masterpiece How Jesus Became God, which made it clear that the modern Western Interpretation of the Holy Trinity differs significantly from the earliest impressions of Jesus, and moreover that the notion of humans intermingling with deities has a long and checkered history. He also made it clear that the Resurrection, perhaps the cornerstone of Modern Christianity, is highly suspect, based on burial traditions at theme.
I have been trying to work out a time to record a podcast with Bart for some time, and was fortunate that his schedule opened up recently, following the publication of his newest book, Armageddon: What the Bible Really Says About The End. This book provides a detailed analysis of the Book of Revelation, and describes how perhaps the most iconic modern interpretation of End Times, The Rapture, is a modern mythological invention and is itself not even scriptural.
In our dialogue we explored Bart’s own intellectual adventure from fundamentalist youth to Biblical Scholar, from true believer to skeptical historian. We then explored some of the most enlightening aspects of his writing. It was a fascinating, entertaining, and informative discussion, and one that I hope will be widely viewed. I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as we enjoyed recording it.
Consider supporting the podcast and the Origins Project Foundation at originsproject...
The Origins Podcast, a production of The Origins Project Foundation, features in-depth conversations with some of the most interesting people in the world about the issues that impact all of us in the 21st century. Host, theoretical physicist, lecturer, and author, Lawrence M. Krauss, will be joined by guests from a wide range of fields, including science, the arts, and journalism. The topics discussed on The Origins Podcast reflect the full range of the human experience - exploring science and culture in a way that seeks to entertain, educate, and inspire.
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I am a huge admirer of Dr. Krauss, but he has fallen into the trap that so many professor turned bloggers fall into. He has invited a fascinating and accomplished scholar onto his show, but if you time their two hour plus conversation, you will find that Dr. Krauss does more than 75% of the talking.
Really? I don't know about that.
He definitely talks too much.
Well it is his podcast. Whats wrong if he loves listening to his own voice?
@Zigzag15624 whats wrong is he loves listening to his own voice. He said himself he's been wanting to meet bart for years and then does all the talking. Make it make sense.
@@redmed10 The two things arent mutually exclusive
First of all, there is nothing more enjoyable than listening to two brilliant scholars mull over complicated subjects in real time. Second, I love that Dr Krauss has this astonishing curiosity about everything in the world around him, and seeks out amazing people to talk with. Third, I love that Dr Ehrman has an incredible understanding of both religious and secular thought and can compare and contrast them in a way anyone can understand.
Thanks!
I love your podcast.
Do you know what happens the second after Death?
If you had any inclination you wouldn’t be supporting this. Jesus is real and can set you free
Over the past year, I've dedicated 12-hour days and 6½-day weeks to writing a book bathed on faith (or lack thereof). My efforts include hundreds of hours of research. Dr. Ehrman's works have been a big part of my investigation. Lawrence Krauss brought out the very best in Dr. Ehrman. The knowledge you two possess is mind-blowing, so much so that I want to quit my work because it will never reach your level. But too much is invested, so I'll soldier on. In this post, I'm trying to say that you two created an outstanding video. Thank you, and I'd love to see more from you two together.
I really enjoyed this interview. To quote Billy Joel, "Honesty is hardly ever heard, but mostly what I need from you".
@ 1:19:02
A tragically sad incident is the murder of Hypatia of Alexandria by the Christians.
All mostly because Hypatia, who was a lady, mathematician and scientist, refused to convert to Christianity and stayed true to her native non-Christian so-called "pagan" beliefs.
Hypatia was NOT a witch nor charlatan dabbling in the "dark arts" as the fanatical Christians accused her to be.
In fact, by our modern standards, she was truly an excellent mathematician and scientist of her era.
And the bloodthirsty mad Christian mob butchered her to death!
Bart Ehrman is definitely one of my favorite writers. Such a thoughtful and wonderful human. He truly cares about people, and I feel like no matter where you land on faith, he would just want you to learn and make the decision for yourself. Great stuff as always
The confirmation bias level from Lawrence is similar to religious zealots. Ehrman is not as much.
I feel like no matter where you land on faith, he would just want you to learn and make the decision for yourself.}Any half wit with integrity would probably suges the same thing.Many would say believe nothing. dis believe nothing and don't ignore. Be like Socrates, If you don't know just say you don't know.Have faith in your self .
Ehrman's views and writing has evolved through decades of researching the bible, its historical context and role in the religion(s) of the Levant. A curious an open-minded approach, plus fluency in the original language of the texts gives him a perspective that distinguishes him from the usual "pro or con" camps. He's less concerned with assigning meaning or value to Christian belief, in favor of a clear-eyed grasp of it's active and ongoing place in human history.
He puts on a good public persona, but he's much different than that under the surface. I've noticed pretty much all atheist apologists are that way - sort of two faced.
How are you Under the surface.
Even though this is a discussion and not so much an interview, I do wish that Lawrence would stop interrupting so much and cutting Burt off when he is trying to talk and, yes, hogging the spotlight so to speak. I do like the discussion (and the podcast in general) very much. Thank you 🙏
I had tried once to listen to an episode of Krauss interviewing Shermer and I had found him inarticulate (he can’t speak in sentences), unpleasant, uninteresting with a rather inflated ego. This episode confirms it and worse.
Ehrman, along with others, made throwing off the shackles of my faith so much easier. That bit about believing by not reading the Bible carries so much truth.
Contradictions only exist in linear finite thinking . The epistomology of divine revelation is paradoxical and this is where these guys miss it .
lmfao most of Ehrman’s claims are exaggerations or intentionally deceptive. In academic & debate settings with educated opponents, Ehrman’s a completely different man. He relies on friendly echo chambers to shill to unwittingly credulous audiences (like you)
Then again, Ehrman is a saintly Honest Abe compared to Krauss.
Yeah but it's too late. You will meet your end soon just like everyone else because of their belief. You arw aware your scheduled for elimination right?
@@Imahuckleberry God scheduled my elimination?
This was a difficult conversation for me to get into. The interviewer was preparing to answer or move into the next question upon Bart almost finishing his respnse. There was very little time from an endless string of conversation that both people were moving through to the next question or statement.
Compliments to you, Lawrence, regarding your style of questioning making for an interesting interview. In the little I've seen of you over the years, mostly in debates, you've struck me as a decent fellow who doesn't get too much into the mud in disagreements. Perhaps it is your smile and charm and sense of shared humanity that works for me. Anyway, if you ever see this, take it as a compliment. From a Believer ( who isn't afraid to wrestle over and through hard pushback on Christianity from anyone, Non-Believer AND Believer ).
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Not meaning to sound religious, but I would say Bart Ehrman has changed my life. His work is vital. He speaks our (the Christian) language. So early on I felt I could trust him more than say a Christopher Hitchens (whom I now love!). I was giving up my identity by walking away from Christianity, and I needed to hear this from someone who understood that.
Welcome to helping the world be a better place by understanding it more realistically/critically/thoughtfully !!
@@onedaya_martian1238 thank you!
You have been deceived my friend. Bart and his opinions are not neccesary the holy graal of the reality. His Master, Bruce Metzger greatest text scholars ever was a christian preacher and a beliver who never denied the truth of the Gospel.
Second,you have to accept a consistent amount of double standart and hipocricy in order to reject some actual facts as:
" Tammy Peterson rosary testimony "And : Exorcism: World leading Psychiatric Authority speaks out " with Richard Gallagher.
Your confortable self sufficiency will not save you in your last day.
@@vickiesyoutube Why did the Jewish leaders want to kill Jesus according to Bart ?
Thanks!
I couldn’t tell if there was some sort of delay, but you gotta give them time to answer the question.
The consistent interruption of the guest was disjointing.
Bart is a good listener.
This is perfect. Ive been listening to Bart Ehrman all week at work.
I could listen to him all the time
I hope you don't work as a flight controller or surgeon or similar 😅
You should get a job as a critic
The part about pastors and livelihoods reminded me of the last wedge between Christianity and myself. I never bought the literalist interpretation, and got in trouble in 3rd grade for pointing out that the math on Noah's Ark just didn't work out. I had just seen a documentary about elephants and i knew the amount of food (and poo) from just 2 elephants for 40 days would have filled that boat....lol
Anyway, back on topic, i went to church up into high school because my friends did (and the pastor's middle daughter was my age and hot lol). But her dad was very much "god doesn't care what music you listen to" kind of more liberal brand of Christianity in a little town in WV.
The church fired him and since they owned his house, they threw he, his wife, and their three kids out of their home. In the middle of winter. I had gotten my first paycheck from my job and me and my buddy went and bought them groceries... i was so pissed. Never did go back.
But did you get off with the daughter?
@@robinharwood5044 lol. No. It wasn't destined to be. :D I was trying my damndest though!
@@jasonGamesMaster Ouch. I think we’ve all been there.
@@jasonGamesMaster My first wife was a PK (Preachers Kid) she cheated on me while I was in the Army. I literally paid for her car and her 1st two years of college and she started messing around with one of her classmates. Started out as allegedly "study sessions" and after I literally went up to her job to borrow "her" car as mine was in the shop over a w/e (she worked at a restaurant inside a holiday inn at the time) only to find the guy she cheated on me with worked with her at the restaurant. He even had the same first name as mine. 😂 You probably dodged a bullet my friend.
@@ToddWaid1 lol. I have literally no idea. This was before FB etc, so I've not heard anything about them since they moved away
Lawrence is just such a source of comfort to me. I used to listen to Hitchens and miss him terribly. Now I have Laurence to fill the gap. Every podcast is a jewel. Thank you! Enjoyed this!
This was one of the best Ehrman chats I’ve heard in a long time. I have been a student of his for many years and I know his material fairly well. With Lawrence’s input and intellectual capacity, this was very informative. More like this, please. It opens things up so much more than all the youngsters interviewing him.
Lawrence should conduct one interview without ever referring to himself just to see what he thinks of the result.
It is irritating when everything is positioned in relation to him. He has a bit of a messianic complex.
@@yp77738yp77739
The interviews would be better if just let the guest talk about their subject, IMHO … my favorite interviewers line up questions and let them talk.
@@lonelycubicle these are dialogues, not interviews
u are correct he's too into himself
@@TheOriginsPodcastif they are then make it a dialogue
Amazing comments Lawrence. You and Bart did a great service for people to break down what they think, what they believe and how they act
Wiow, wow, wow...listened to Bart for years and still learning new aspects about and from him.
Fascinating conversation, thank you Lawrence Krause and your guestBart Ehrman💐🙏🏽
Dr Krause, I’ve learned so much from your videos, including those beautiful five minute videos during COVID time, to your conversations with other scientists, thank you very much 🙏🏽
I liked the agonistic/atheist comparison. It seems to me that atheism tends to come off as the faith-based version of agnosticism. The fervor of Hitchens, Dawkins, Gervais, etc, don’t do atheism any favors. I like agnostic; there’s nothing to get on a soap-box about.
I'm a physicist and in physics there is not absolute agreement even in the fundimentals, at some point it becomes belief in particular guys the seem to predict better than others. Bart Ehrman is being straight, you are being evangalical in your science perspective.
and its told as.... and we get the parrots screaming at those that dare to ask... just ask....
its a sad very sad state of affairs. how many generations will be wasted in order to sustain this stupid system? anw nice to hear from you😎✌🍻
I hav never seen two interesting people spend, no waste over 20 Min. acting like self-serving jerks in my life. What Harris said in the first couple of Min., about the rapture was the most I learned in the entire video.
The “unknown known” is a bold concept that
Rumsfeld(US secretary of state) defines as
“the things that you think you know that it
turns out you did not”.
See Zizek and the 4th category - the unknown known. Things you know but don't know that you know.
Actually, that's the known unknown.
The unknown known are things you know are unknown. For instance, we wily human-beans often like to think we know what happens after this life is concluded, but whom of us knows what happens before we are born, here?
Or, for fans of Monty Python, "what is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?"
It might be helpful to consider some Carlos Casteneda or Don Juan Matus terms/concepts:
...the known, the unknown, and the unknowable.
As the middling interval, the unknown can be ranged relative to proximity to the known or the unknowable.
There is where we get back to Donald Rumsfeld musing about known knowables, unknown knowables, known unknowns, and unknown unknowables (or three of four of these).
Thank you for inspiring this SMILING EXERCISE.
May you ENJOY the NUDGE and WINK.
What a wonderful discussion.
Thank you both. Wonderful work.
Brilliant conversation.
Whenever Lawrence writes or speaks, I'm there.
I was just a kid at the time, though I still remember seeing a provocatively titled book sitting on my father's desk. Seeing as though my father was a chemist, the majority of books he read seemed too intellectually intimidating for my teenage mind, but I decided to give this one a try...A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss. My Scientific journey had begun.
Nothingness does not create something. No matter how many times you multiply 0, 10*0^infinity, it will never give you 1. Simple logic. For there to be a Universe, something, an entity must have created it. That entity must have a will, power, knowledge, etc. to make a Universe from Nothing.
*The Question is, what is that thing, Entity, Alien, God, and what is the wisdom behind their creation of this universe?*
@HajiIsse I would have thought so too, but in the case of electromagnetism, the ability to do work i.e energy is not the product of a simple binary process yielding quantities of zeros and ones. Instead, work is enabled through the creation of energy gradients or potentials. A positive and negative charge kept at a distance produces a gradient in the space between them. When those positive and negative charges are brought back together, the product is 0. Check black holes and Quantum field Theory. Too much to explain here, but we seem to be living in the space between those dipoles siphoning energy from the gradient until they cancel once again.
It is, in my opinion, that after many years of studying in Hebrew/Aramaic that whatever has happened, Christianity is not it. The Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible can not both be correct. Can't put much faith in any religious literature created by man anymore so ya, that's all of it.
@mylittleelectron6606
Something we take for granted is the existence we are in. Imagine we have energy, granted. Now imagine that energy creating 3D existence. Let us use an example we can think of. Energy creating a virtual game with pathetic graphics and lame story with start and ending?
Possible?
Not in a quadrillion million years.
Let us say, it is not Christianity, Judaism. So many contradictions on top of the fact that there is a lack of proof for their authenticity.
Where can one look into for purpose?
@@HajjiJesusif you actually read the book, you'd know that the "nothing" mentioned isn't actually the colloquial meaning of nothing. it doesn't mean the universe came from literally nothing.
This is not much of an interview as it is an exposition of the hosts views.
George Carlin put it perfectly: "Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago."
LOL!!! I agree 100% with Carlin. Carlin certainly has a way with words.
Well, you may be right, or things are better this way for a reason we can't know or comprehend. Not a Christian, just thinking around.
@@dirtypickle77 I am born/raised Catholic. The usual western perception of "god" as the architect and magic "gimme what I want" giver is very wrong and leads to the conclusion Carlin draws. I do believe part of the human experience on Earth includes a sense of other, and involves mystery, curiosity, longing and awe. Some codify this as god.
@@jacuz169 This is called 'the god of gaps fallacy' and that's exactly what it is: a fallacy. You can't just pull 'magic' out as an explanation every time you don't understand something.
I am afraid I didn't get much discussion of Revelation.
Stellar conversation! Thank you.
I loved this discussion! Thank you both😊
Great conversation! Really engaging throughout.
Fantastic discussion. I’m just about to finish Armageddon and I’m a near 52 year old college educated person who was raised Southern Baptist, and I had no idea the rapture was a 19th century invention🤯
Them thar Southern Baptists need more revelatin' of the covered up misdeeds they've been up to. Voting to keep women from preaching was a sign that they don't need no stinkin' enlightenment.
Me too. I learned of the rapture through bible studies with Jehovah's Witnesses as a child so I guess there were added parts. I've shaken my faith long ago and I too had a bad experience with a very poor teacher of science in High school and later in life discovered Science fiction that inevitably got me reading science books and devouring biographies of Darwin and a penguin-book of the Feinmen Lectures and others. I am so grateful to discover only relatively recently that scholarship had been long critiquing Christianity and being very slow to the use of today's pervasive technology I nevertheless have become an avid UA-cam subscriber of a host of young bible scholars who all reference Dr Ehrman a great deal. SO I am very grateful for his work and in particular his recent debates that have given me the courage of my current convictions as an aetheist, and a happy one at that. Many people owe him a debt of gratitude that can never be repaid. I wish him well as millions see more of him through channels such as yours, thank you for bringing this to us.
my Mom warned me when I was a kid thankfully. She had a good handle on literary criticism of the Bible even tho she was a Baptist and still believes in a kind god at 82. Unfortunately she married a narcissistic psychopath who targeted me so I clearly could see prayers didn’t work. I never could be a believer but I tried.
@@beastshawnee Hugs through the internet. Undo the damage by showing the love that should never be lost because of evil.
I hope Bart does more interviews with religious apologists with a more religious base.
It seems to me, that Kraus’s audience does not need more convincing that the Bible is unreliable.
THUMBS DOWN Too much useless chatter. The moderator is interrupting all of the time. I am clicking out.
2 titans who can discuss a particular topic - Revelations - from their field of expertise...melding science and history together.
Bart is the best!
It's so interesting to see these two individuals talk, as I am familiar with both of them from their different fields. I have always considered them both to be a bit of jerks. Not from malice, but from the social awkwardness that comes from devoting oneself to a singular pursuit. While I kinda dislike them both, I also love them both because their intellectual honesty, rigor, and love of all things real and meaningful is undeniable. This was a real gem to find.
I have the same thought
Hate to be the bearer of neutral news, but getting a PhD, working at a research university, and writing books has a lot to do with focus and devotion to topics.
@@nikolaiiscoolguyproduction4807 are you claiming they're justified in being Jerks? Cause there are plenty of other people who have achieved the same that I don't get the same vibe from.
@@theintrnationlst I'm not entirely sure what you mean by jerk. I could kind of see the case for Krauss, but I'm especially curious about Ehrman.
@@nikolaiiscoolguyproduction4807 noun: jerk; plural noun: jerks
DEROGATORY•INFORMAL
a contemptibly obnoxious person.
I've watched a lot of Ehrman, as a guest on other peoples channels and on his own Misquoting Jesus channel. He is very smart and usually right, but he takes a particularly dismissive and arrogant (his laugh) attitude in considering other's positions. Now, I'm not saying either he or Krauss are monsters, and in both cases it doesn't show much in this particular video, what I'm saying is I have always considered both of them to be a BIT of jerks. It doesn't empirically mean they actually are, it's just my impression, and I found it interesting to hear them converse.
People from outside the field of Christian history starting to realize what an absolute, mind-blowing masterpiece of a book is "How Jesus Became God". I've been saying this for years, it's one of the best books ever written.
Its more inerrant than the Bible? 😂
Would you say it's the greatest story ever told? 🤔
@@mojoman2001 No, because that would leave the impression he's just writing some story - however great. I say it's one of the best books written, because it has so many remarkable elements masterfully combined.
@@mojoman2001"How Jesus became God" is a book with whom I am well pleased.
@@rexrambo7686 not to mention having to deal with the whore of Babylon (she actually sounded like a fun date).
Dr. Krauss and Dr. Ehrman together? Epic crossover.
Hey Lawrence, the book is called "Revelation", "The Revelation to John" or "The Apocalypse of John". Nowhere is it called "The book of revelations".
I find these guys have no intellectual capacity to assess anything
No mention of Revelation until 1 hour and 21 minutes in.
So great to hear Ehrman point out that a lot of people who do awful things in the name of religion are really just doing them for some other reason and are using the religion as an excuse. I think it's because they are angry and they have suppressed the real reason for their anger (my guess is mostly sexual frustration). But I also think there have been many "good" people who have acted with violence (usually in war) who have gotten swept up in it because other people in their religious tribe all think it's the right thing to do.
The whole idea of the thousand years of the 3rd Reich was based on revelation's prediction of the Christian Millennium and the speeches at the time of its growth invoked Jesus's name. But one has to have the translations of the German to read that...and evangelicals would be horrified to check into that.
Violence is wrong.
No such thing as holy wars.
People have used religion in order to subconsciously justify contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, unfair and invalid) comparison for centuries. Particularly, though not limited to, the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
dont ever talk that broadly over someone like that. because you aimed that at me. thats WHO theyure aiming at. believe waht you want or whatever but theres all kinda levels of death. youll get em all and Ill walk on all of em., wont effect me. YEA RUIGHT MAN WE DONT BELIEVE YOU WE ONLY BELIEVE IN SATAN AND NON LOCALITY> SCIENCE AND GRAVITY. OR STUPID AUTHOR OF CONFUSION THAT WANTS TO RAPE AND ROBYOU FOR YOUR IDENTITY FOR HIS EOPL
Two of my favorite writers and intellectuals. I liked how Lawrence dug a little deeper into Bart's thought processes than other interviewers have. But I really liked the very end, with Bart saying that being a good person and doing good things was inline with what he believes the historical Jesus fundamentally taught. And Lawrence agreed.
So did a thousand and one, deluded prophets thought and talked like Jesus around the ssme era!
There's absolutely no way anyone *knows* what a guy we call jesus (not his name) actually said or taught. No one during his supposed life ever wrote anything down nor are there any contemporary records of him. Everything about him comes long after his supposed death. Stories certainly were made up and passed around and got more and more fantastic and eventually some Greek writers wrote some of them down. In fact, over 40 gospels were written and most of them are so ridiculously fantastical that even those who put the NT together couldn't take them serious. All we know about Paul is that he heard some stories and became a believer but he never met the guy and we don't know how honest he was in his letters, a number of which have been proven forgeries.
@rhondah1587 agreed, Christianity is a mess. Just another creation of man, folly, really. After 50 years, Christianity has become sickening to me with all the time and energy spent on lies.
@@rhondah1587 couldn't agree more. Well articulated myfriend!
You’re forgetting that Paul did meet Jesus, multiple times…in his head.
Excellent conversation. Really enjoyed the seriousness of the discussion and the way Lawrence allowed Bart to hold the floor of the discussion. Lastly, they’re was no attack on religion just stating why they disagreed with Christianity and some of their reasonings for doing so. Very well done and hope to hear many more discussions such as these.
L0😊😅
Wonderful guest
What a fruitful conversation! I'm going to have to listen to it more than once to glean all I can from it. Love both of these men and their dedication to rationality and scholarship.
you used the right word fruitful not Hot Dogs or Pizza!
That was very well done!
An amusing, and seemingly genuine comment from Lawrence when he states he gets there by way of reason rather than faith, which was a very gentlemanly accommodation of his faith as stated, with Bart’s very genuine looking smile in receipt of that declared contrast.
I think perhaps that Lawrence Krauss is blinded by science when he states that knowledge can only be derived from the scientific method. I may not think that Romeo and Juliet are real people that actually existed but I can still discover meaning, understanding, and great wisdom by reading Shakespeare; the kind of knowledge that you could never find through the scientific method.
You must have missed the bit where Krauss differentiates empirical knowledge from wisdom, allowing that both have value in their own ways.
“Credentials…for whatever that’s worth”… sounds elitist…loved this interview gentleman.
Thank you Bart and Krauss. Wonderful discussion ! Keep up the good work.
No education eh?
I was expecting the guest to do most of the talking.
Ehrman and Krauss. Two of the greatest minds on the internet
Fascinating discussion between two very intelligent and well-educated men. The comments to this discussion are even more fascinating.😇
1:32:02 - “Why are people so willing to believe stories that are handed down - I think of more recently, the Mormon story, which is so obviously ridiculous but is growing by leaps and bounds - why do you think that people grasp on and are willing to believe these stories without substantiation?"
The discussion here is interesting, but the answer is so simple and is at the root of religion’s stranglehold on otherwise intelligent people. It’s that their parents drilled it into them from birth, and, as adults, even in the face of reason, they can’t imagine their lives without it. Only the strongest have the fortitude to resist, and are saved.
I believe it is a type of psychological child abuse. Not generally done with intentional malice yet harmful in many ways. ✌️🇨🇦
No, the Mormons actually grew from 5 million to 17 million through conversions in the 2000s, in no small part thanks to the prominence of Mitt Romney in American politics at the time. Heck, the most cringe part of that story was when Glenn Beck converted. We can tell because in the 2010s the internet then exploded with all sorts of Mormon debunkers suddenly flourishing like they never did before, with some of the most critical (but not necessarily the most popular) coming from the ranks of disillusioned converts leaving after colliding head-on with true Mormonism. 😂 Now they're down to about 6 million active members, but ironically the majority who left or become inactive are the older members from multigenerational families who were raised in the Church and only learned of the Joseph Smith story and other problems of Mormon history recently. Many of the converts actually stay, simply becoming less active or inactive. These days it's harder for Mormons to find converts thanks to things like the Book of Mormon Musical popularizing the Mormon story, but they'll probably have a resurgence once this crisis phase passes. They're the richest church on the planet (well, technically the RCC is, but the Popes are better at hiding their wealth) so they won't be going away anytime soon.
Through parents and substitude parents, the charismatic teachers.
Yes, you really have to shake off your indoctrination to have a chance of escaping and living a life free of the fear and guilt that comes with Christianity. Christianity teaches your born bad and deserve hellfire.
I'm being pedantic I know but it gets my goat whenever anyone calls it ''Revealations'' when it's ''Revealation'' singular not plural.
I like that Laurence had actually read the material he was talking about of Bart Erhman's, that's good and shows
I kept wondering when he said Revelations if it wasn't just Revelation.
Great conversation and I too love listening to them but I wish Lawrence Krauss didn't interrupt at times
What a lovely conversation! I follow Ehrman for quite a while and also did see some material of Krauss, so their experiences, stories and thinking was not unknown and little predictable though there were some new angles to look at religion and Christianity. The numerous interruptions from an involved Krauss were oké since it prevented words spent on things we already understand or know. Much thanks to the algorithm to suggest this movie.
One gave me understanding of gravitational waves with neutron stars while the other has given me great insight to a ancient Harry Potter story. A fantastic meet up!!!
I don’t so much have a problem with Lawrence talking about himself as much as I do the constant interruption. Things would be worlds better if he just waited to the end of a sentence to respond.
Thank you guys! I love me some Bart now and then. Amoung awesome quotes here I'm gonna def use that Apollo story (somewhere halfway through) that sounds like you're describing Jesus and the bible and ends with, "but no one knows about these books". That was awesome.
Not Apollo, Apollonius of Tyana 😆
Fantastic conversation!
46:26 Exactly what I am trying to do! The word "believe" is almost irrelevant to me. Istead I try to use "trust", and it works perfectly. : )
Trust in what?
@@Isaac5123 What ever someone tries to tell me. I may trust you if you can make your case.
@@oldtimer7635 yes very good. The trouble with the NT is that once a certain passage is found to be untrue it makes everything else untrustworthy
@@Isaac5123 Yes, if one thing is wrong, say virgin birth, then why not an empty tomb? Why a tomb at all since as discussed in the video Romans did not release the body,they left it up there.
@@pinball1970 yes exactly. The translation of the word virgin in Isaiah is wrong. It's not virgin at all it's young woman yet it is plagiarised as that in Mathew but its not true. Take the last 12 verses of Mark. They are a later addition. I really don't believe Jesus said to Peter feed my sheep after Peter denied him 3 times its laughable . I would challenge anyone to handle snakes and drink poison its stupid as the added verses of Mark states
Whale, Krause would do well to let his guest do the bulk of the talking, especially when it is one as articulate and knowledgeable as Ehrman. Nothing has more impact than an insider "expat" who can accurately deconstruct a cultic empire as widespread and powerful as is christianity. Ehrman has the data and knows how to present it without a running commentary from a less knowledgeable "outsider." A good interviewer doesn't "lead" the conversation, but simply nurtures it. The guest is the focus.
Just stumbled on this. Excellent when two intellectuals get together.
My science teacher sent me to the master of her dept for whipping. That's my experience of science in secondary school. The art of discipline. The more I was disciplined the more I rebelled. Now I'm 70, I see the art of avoiding.
Excellent - big fan of Ehrman & his work and long standing fan of Krauss- looking forward to this.
"Uniformitarianism" is probably the word Ehrman was looking for. Roughly it is the theory that all of geological processes have occurred in an uniform and continuous way with no radical discontinuities or abrupt appearances out of nowhere.
Yes, that was the word. But what you describe is probably gradualism that's part of Uniformitarianism as concept in geology. The more general use of the term is to express that the laws of nature in the present have been the same in the past.
Yep. I was screaming it at my my phone. Along with Revelation, Lawrence, not Revelations!
@@ddavidjeremy That's almost as bad as 'evidences'.
Didn’t realize Bart became agnostic due to him thinking suffering in the world is irreconcilable with a god. Will look for a video of him discussing that.
He’s discussed it over and over again in many videos, but not in very much more depth. I would point out that it’s only “irreconcilable with a god” if you presume a priori that god to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent, and I don’t think there’s any good reason to presume that. Putting aside that each of these supposed attributes is inherently self-contradictory, I don’t see that this is how any god is ever portrayed within a culturally significant religious context, certainly not within the Old Testament.
He has had a few debates on that topic which you can find, and there are also a couple of lectures available where he discusses his book "God's Problem" which is about the different ways the Biblical authors try to account for suffering and evil and he talks a bit about his personal journey there
@@karlu8553
Thank you for replying. I will look those up.
His first step was that the Nt is full of mistakes and unreliable. The next step was therefore easy
He's offering a free course off his website that goes into that in depth.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:02 📚 *Bart Ehrman, a biblical scholar, is a guest on the Origins podcast to discuss revelations and his historical approach to scripture.*
01:12 📖 *Bart Ehrman's book "Armageddon" explores the Book of Revelations and uncovers surprises about its content, including the absence of the Rapture.*
02:25 🎙️ *Bart Ehrman discusses his journey from a fundamentalist background to becoming a scholar and historian who interprets scriptures based on historical evidence.*
05:04 🏫 *Bart Ehrman grew up in Lawrence, Kansas, and his parents emphasized the importance of a good education, even though they weren't particularly academic.*
09:46 📖 *Bart Ehrman's interest in the Bible developed in high school after a born-again experience, leading him to convert family and friends.*
15:04 🤝 *Bart Ehrman converted family and friends to Christianity, even attempting to convert a Jewish girlfriend but facing challenges.*
16:44 🌟 *Bart Ehrman's born-again experience was characterized by accepting Jesus into his heart, and he later received the gift of the spirit, including speaking in tongues.*
18:08 🎓 *Bart Ehrman attended Moody Bible College, a fundamentalist institution, as he pursued his path toward ministry.*
19:04 📚 *Bart Ehrman initially attended Moody Bible Institute where his education was focused on the Bible and Christian topics.*
20:37 📖 *He was deeply passionate about learning the Bible and theology during his time at Moody.*
25:33 🕊️ *Bart Ehrman shared an interesting perspective on the Creation Museum, mentioning its honesty at the beginning but later transitioning into a natural history museum.*
32:56 📜 *Bart Ehrman's interest in analyzing Greek manuscripts of the New Testament was driven by a desire to find the original words in places where there were uncertainties.*
35:25 🤔 *Bart Ehrman discussed the intellectual challenges of reconciling apparent contradictions within religious texts and how some theologians attempt to do so.*
37:43 📚 *Bart Ehrman believes that the distinction between knowledge and theology is significant, as theology often lacks empirical evidence.*
39:23 🤔 *Bart Ehrman's transition from belief to disbelief in Christianity was driven by wrestling with the problem of suffering and the lack of evidence for an active God in the world.*
45:12 🤝 *Bart Ehrman identifies as both an agnostic and an atheist, distinguishing between knowledge (agnosticism) and belief (atheism).*
46:10 🔬 *Bart Ehrman emphasizes the importance of empirical knowledge and materialism in his approach to understanding the world.*
49:06 📖 *Bart Ehrman finds the New Testament to be the most important collection of books in the history of civilization, given its cultural, social, and historical impact, regardless of religious beliefs.*
54:23 📚 *Bart Ehrman acknowledges the significance of works like Principia and Galileo's dialogue in shaping the modern world but still considers the New Testament's impact on civilization to be unparalleled.*
55:07 🕌 *Bart Ehrman believes that without the New Testament, the Quran might not have existed in its current form, underlining the New Testament's historical importance.*
56:16 📚 *Bart Ehrman discusses the importance of understanding the Gospel of John in culture and society compared to understanding Hamlet.*
56:45 🎙️ *University professors often teach things they may not personally believe, especially in the humanities, to provide context and knowledge to students.*
57:13 🧐 *Scientists engage in their work primarily because they find it fascinating, not solely to save the world.*
57:27 📖 *Bart Ehrman's academic pursuits, like reading Greek and Roman moral philosophy, take him into tangential areas of interest.*
57:56 🌐 *Broad-reaching ideas that connect science and culture can engage people intrinsically and make science more interesting.*
58:23 🙌 *Bart Ehrman acknowledges the importance of individuals like himself in making science interesting and accessible to a broader audience.*
59:05 📚 *Bart Ehrman's exploration of religious scriptures and philosophy has expanded his knowledge and perspective.*
01:00:03 📜 *Bart Ehrman highlights the awareness among serious religious scholars about discrepancies in central religious stories and scriptures.*
01:00:29 🤔 *Bart Ehrman questions why central religious stories, like the three wise men and the Virgin birth, continue to be emphasized even when scholars know they are not central to the scriptures.*
01:01:23 🎓 *Bart Ehrman distinguishes between religious scholars in institutions of higher learning who may acknowledge discrepancies and pastors or evangelists who often sincerely believe in religious narratives.*
01:03:01 ⛪ *Bart Ehrman discusses the challenges that pastors and religious leaders face in navigating their beliefs and teaching, considering the impact on their communities and livelihoods.*
01:05:05 🤝 *Bart Ehrman and the interviewer explore the idea that religious leaders may finesse or withhold certain beliefs to guide individuals toward accepting faith for their own perceived good.*
01:06:53 👥 *Bart Ehrman acknowledges the complex dynamics within religious communities, where leaders may prioritize maintaining the faith of their congregations over revealing doubts or contradictions.*
01:10:48 🧪 *Bart Ehrman and the interviewer discuss the differences in teaching scientific theories and the role of consensus and evidence in science.*
01:13:20 👍 *Bart Ehrmanhighlights the value of discussions like the one they're having, where differing perspectives can be explored in a constructive manner.*
01:14:03 📖 *The interviewer expresses a desire to delve into the content of Bart Ehrman's book "How Jesus Became God" and plans to do so in the upcoming conversation.*
01:14:14 📚 *Revelation in the Bible describes a story similar to other ancient tales of divine individuals, making it less unique than some believe.*
01:16:21 🕊️ *Early Christians argued about whether Jesus or other divine figures like Apollonius were superior, leading to debates about their status.*
01:17:30 📜 *Christians' exclusivistic belief and missionary efforts contributed to the spread of Christianity in the Roman world.*
01:18:55 🏛️ *Constantine's conversion and support for Christianity in the 4th century played a crucial role in its rapid rise.*
01:19:52 💒 *Christianity's shift from oppressed to oppressor led to the abandonment of the idea of separation of church and state.*
01:26:35 📖 *Revelation faced challenges in being included in the New Testament due to questions about its authorship and content.*
01:28:06 📜 *The gospels were written by educated individuals, not the illiterate followers of Jesus, which raises questions about their accuracy.*
01:30:35 🤔 *Historians employ rigorous criteria to evaluate the authenticity of historical accounts, even those rooted in oral tradition.*
01:32:57 🙏 *People tend to believe what they are told, and faith often relies on trust rather than empirical evidence.*
01:33:51 📜 *Historians establish levels of probability in their research, much like scientific experiments, by evaluating likelihoods and predictions.*
01:34:59 📖 *Early Christian views of Jesus' divinity evolved over time, from his exaltation at resurrection to pre-existence in the Gospel of John.*
01:45:16 🤔 *The historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection and the empty tomb is problematic, with contradictions and questionable aspects.*
01:47:36 💡 *The argument that women discovering the empty tomb makes it historically credible is flawed, as it ignores the context and storytelling choices.*
01:51:09 ⛪️ *Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher, and Revelations was written by someone who believed the end was imminent, emphasizing the apocalyptic themes in early Christianity.*
01:51:48 📚 *The idea of a Rapture is not rooted in the Bible; it was made up in 1833.*
01:52:17 💥 *Revelation was written by someone who believed the end was coming soon, causing issues for those who still expect it after 2,000 years.*
01:54:19 🌍 *Misinterpretations of Revelation have real-world consequences, such as climate change denial.*
01:55:01 🔥 *Belief in imminent apocalyptic events has led to psychological harm and even violence.*
01:57:02 ⛪ *Evangelical support for Israel is rooted in their interpretation of the Bible and the need for specific events to occur.*
01:57:31 🕌 *Fundamentalist Christians believe Israel must take control of the Temple Mount for prophecy to be fulfilled.*
01:58:29 🌌 *The cognitive dissonance caused by unfulfilled predictions often leads to increased belief and proselytizing.*
02:00:10 🛐 *Churches provide reinforcement for beliefs that may otherwise be doubted due to their fantastical nature.*
02:03:11 💬 *Appreciating Jesus involves separating historical context from later interpretations, focusing on his message of treating others well and standing against oppression.*
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Ji
Great conversation! One point that always seems strange to me: I don’t know why we need to invoke visions in order to explain the resurrection. To me it seems more plausible that the followers of Jesus were simply in great shock after the crucifixion and intentionally created some sort of resurrection narrative in order to keep the movement alive.
i used to think that until it was revealed to me 49 years ago .
@@RocketKirchnerI don’t think anyone ever gets a revelation that is completely different from one’s own life experiences
Much of that interpretation, or, at least, the perpetuation of that interpretation can be credited (or blamed) on the Apostle Paul . It's been my impression when listening to my Southern Baptists friends over 7 decades of life that they're more in thrall to the ideas of Paul than they are to the teachings of Jesus. He was the one who made all the nitpicking decisions about what Christianity should be and he seemed to do it on the fly responding instantly by firing off a letter here and there when the locals started bickering. That's the source of much of today's political garbage, IMO.
Say what you will about Thomas Jefferson but I think he was right on track when he cut out all the supernatural stuff out of the gospels and concentrated on the actual humanitarian and ethical teachings of Jesus. It was a literal, physical cut and paste job done with scissors and glue that came to be known as the "Jeffersonian Bible". I'm sure that most here know about it. If not, there's Google of course.
@@olphartus5743totally agree about all that supernatural stuff. One can have respect for Jesus without believing in god. The gullible part of the population, however, is blinded by all the miracles and the fairytale character of the Jesus story - god who is on the side of the victim and offers protection. What most people don’t realize is that god is also the perpetrator, the mastermind behind the slaughter of innocent children in Bethlehem and the killing of millions of Jews during the Holocaust.
Such a wonderful conversation!
Great Convo!
I didn’t know you had a podcast! Subscribed. So funny I ended up finding this through Bart Ehrman
I enjoy listening to good conversation rather sometimes than an interview and I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation
I love the Bart man. No better scholar on Christianity. The BEST JERRY...the best
Very interesting conversation and getting to the core of some of these questions and opinions. 😊
This podcast gives a wide and deep view of different aspects of life and universe. Thank you sir.
Expect a conversation with the world renowned electrochemist Prof. Donald Sadoway @ MIT and about his sustainable electrochemical research trajectories.
Before we politely shit on those who take mythology literature latterly.... look in the mirror. If you believe in a tribal identity, nation, race etc... maybe you aren’t the one to point a polite middle finger to gods mythologies
The colab I didn't know I needed.
What an enrapturing discussion!
...I'll see myself out.
Thank you so much for this. I am a fan of you both. 😊
Live Bart explanation of these questions. To bad the questionnaire was so disorganized. But thank u both .
Hyper long and boring introduction of the guest. A pity.
Super interview. Thnx. It all seems to lead to a question about the structure of human psychology (how the brain works), in reference to the how humans (and other species) work within the ecology that constrains them.
My ultimate rejection of my Evangelical Christian faith came to me as a very young child who began to read before kindergarten. I got permission from my mom to read books from her book club and books which were classic fiction. All these books - which were not science fiction - were pulled from the authors’ imagined experiences but culled from their own real life experiences; those writings represented examples of a vast variety of religions and cultures of the world. As this reading progressed with my age and education what still hung in my mind was that religions in particular were very diverse and competitive and conflicting. This taught me that religion was one key way humans try to form concepts that explain life after death and that identifying theories about life and death gave them hope and conceptual certainty. However it also taught me that saying one religion is better than another is a fallacy. Religion is simply one way humans have progressed in understanding life and death. The fact that religions vary so much, to my way of thinking, calls all of them into question.
Now come to Islam
@@jingojingo1 If you actually read the post you would know that will not happen with ANY religion, even Islam.
@@sharonhearne5014 what will no happen?
They are conflicting only on the surface. The outer layer is indeed very different from one religion to the next - they use different terms, different images, etc. But once you get away from the scholastic and more into the mystical writings, they seem to all come together to a great degree, regardless of the tradition.
Mystics of the whole world speak the same kind of language. They all talk about the Absolute, that which is ineffable, which cannot really be talked about or put into words (which is why apophatic theology is a thing - the idea that the Divine is best talked about by what it is not).
They speak about the unity and Oneness of being, which is reliably said to be more fundamental than our perceived multiplicity. Another reocurring theme is the ontological importance of love as the force which binds the multiplicity of being into said unity.
All of this refers to, for all intents and purposes, God - the single most widely misused term that I know of.
Once you've had a mystical experience, all the major world religions, especially from the point of view of their respective mystics, start to make sense to you.
@@candaniel what?
What is the unit of measurement - the Job? - which describes Dr Ehrman's forbearance in not screaming "REVELATION, LARRY, REVELATION! NOT REVELATIONS!" Really enjoyable discussion.
I love this, Dr Krause’ spherical cow and weighing of the Universe is a perennial favourite and Dr Ehrman is excellent
I could only watch about an hour of this. Bart was very patient with the interviewer and could hardly get a word in edgewise. The interviewer’s questions were all over the map. He talked extensively about himself and his views. It was exhausting! I never made it to the review of Bart’s book. I’ll look elsewhere for that.
*Agnostic Atheist* 👍
Bart’s definitions are probably the most common usage and what I expected considering his knowledge of Greek.
Stop interrupting!! I would like to hear the guest answer the question.
Fantastic! Glad that you two finally got together.
1:05:50 "He who feeds me his song I sing" Many of these career christians are motivated by the stomach not to follow the hard truths wherever it may lead.
I can hardly sit through this. I would love to see an interview with Dr. Ehrman where the interviewer doesn't interrupt him to talk about their own life and opinions. Megan Lewis is about the only one who seems able to manage it.
💯
Wow, your right
Wow, you're really rude. You could just listen to his actual content, he does lectures and online classes n shit
@@snuggldungeonwow you should understand what the comment means.
@fogsmart yeah, totally ignoring many of his podcast appearances, appearances on Paulogia who's channel is very well structured and lets Dr. Ehrman talk, etc. My point is that the problem is a sort of tunnel vision that happens where people only see certain interviews etc due to increasingly complex algorithms curating content and the rise of shortform media removing necessary context. This creates little microniche echo chambers that can be divisive to communities as a whole. It's usually not too harmful, but can snowball. Just branch out. There are other good interviews with the Dr.
1:10:25 -- the concept Bart was talking about here (where a teacher will tell students something that really isn't true, but is a concept that they will need to be familiar with later) is what Terry Pratchett called "lies to children." The term has derogatory connotations that I think are unfortunate, but nonetheless it is often a necessary thing that "lies to children" encapsulates.
The one thing, though, that I think is really necessary to make lies-to-children reasonably safe and as unconfusing as possible is if the teacher is careful to emphasize that what they are presenting is oversimplified, or is not really true but points in the right direction. I just heard, for instance, that the Bohr atom is still presented in high school chemistry classes -- which I think is fine as long as the teachers tell the students that it's only a first approximation.
Funny you bring up chemistry and the old models like the Bohr atom. I did well in science and loved it until I hit chemistry in high school; it was so confusing to be presented with a series of now-debunked models and theories from the history of chemistry, and once we got to what it actually is (was), I was hopelessly lost.