excellent video! well explained and makes absolutely sense. However for me its the case that I‘m never on the z2-z3 on the flats, more like z4-z5 already and also I‘m a lighter rider compared to the most of the field therefore i often chose something more aero. I think it’s also important to watch for the speed you gain on the climbs as aero resistance is increasing exponentially. that’s why faster rider benefits less from climbing bikes on the alpe because they start getting aero resistance already
great stuff with interesting data and good takeaways !!! ... now it's confirmed what I thought before ... lower speed in Cat D brings more advantage for a climbing setup when you ride uphill than in the highspeed Cat A where aero setups make more sense ... AND bike choice is still a very personal and psychologic thing ... if you struggle on the flats then take more aero ... if you need more help uphill then take a lighter setup
1. I love your voice, and when you say however: "hi'ver!" 2. The ultimate answer to proper bike choice is (as you already mention) "it depends." I agree that you should select a bike that best suits the "decisive" parts of the course. Usually that does apply to the climbs. Hi'ver, if the field is small there is significantly less draft available, so even if you're gonna save 10% on the upcoming climb, you might be doing 10% more work on the rest of the course because you don't have an aero bike, and you get dropped anyways.
thanks mate! yup its funny that often the answer in cycling is "it depends". Thats interesting thinking about it with smaller field sizes. I was coming at it with the assumption of a 50+ group, meaning you will almost always have a drafting benefit. But yes, I would agree if you're racing in a field of 5, making an aero bike selection makes a lot of sense. A lot more potential for 2 attacking and you having to put in work to bring it back.
I always go Aero unless it's a hilltop finish on select climbs, Bologna, alpe - I don't include ventop, as i simply don't rave up it now 😂 One thing you don't mention. Descents matter. Having an Aero bike will allow you to sit in and recover on descents, a climbing bike may get you dropped. And also you may only be doing z2/3 on the flats, but thats the time you spend recovering between climbs. If you can recover more between climbs, you can climb faster.
I posted a similar point on Reddit! You’re more likely to get dropped on the climb than on the flats. Err on the side of a better climbing bike even when Zwift bikes recommends an aero.
is there a thread on Reddit for this? it would be interesting to see all the comments on the topic. I'm with you (primarily because of how I stack up in my category, I am usually the very last rider dropped from the group on the 5-minute climbs, saving a couple seconds makes a huge impact for me!) on going for the climbing bike. It's always a fearful decision though as I'm always concerned about how bad the decision will be if others decide to blast the pace on the flat. Luckily this hasn't happened to me often 😂
I have never thought about it. It makes so much sense to get the lightest bike to go faster during climbs, that's the main drop zone. Unfortunately, I am still at the back of the pack in CAT B only trying to stay with the pack. Thanks, David. You are my main coach and an invaluable source of information.
Some good thoughts. I generally agree with you: I choose a bike based on how much it will help me in the toughest part of the race. It gets really complex in races like ZRL, where you may want to get sprint points, but also hang on up the climbs. PS: zwifterbikes is a great idea, but the results definitely need to be taken with a grain of salt, as you noted. They aren't even entirely accurate for some routes... not sure how the numbers are being crunched, even though the starting data is based on our speed tests.
Agreed! So many situations where 1 bike may work great for 1 rider but be a horrible selection for another rider (possibly going for ZRL FTS sprint points) I understand how they are trying to break down routes (they have a disclosure about utilizing the hypotenuse and normalizing routes for the Adz & tempus fugit speed tests). However, two things threw me for a loop. 1.) some routes do seem to be off slightly, for example the NY KOM Reverse has the same length as ZI, but it lists only 63m of elevation gain compared to 89m on ZI. 2.) under the compare bikes section the savings in "Savings as per reference bike" don't seem to add to the total time savings. They are always close but never tie exactly
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork Dudeeeee I just ran the Atheos + Lightweight combo on Knickerbocker and my lame ass didn't quite get dropped up NYC KOM!! BUT I almost fell off the back on the rollers to the finish line LMAOOOOOOOOO but I think the lightweight set up helped snipe one extra spot on the kicker to the line! BIG BIG BIG shout outs coming when I drop this Race Like a Champ video!!! Keep up the great work man 👊🏽
Thanks! Looking forward to checking out the video. The Knickerbocker and the NYC climb is always an interesting route to race. Such a short climb but kicks so hard. That last 300 meters is always painful 😂
I checked out your race vid! One thing that came to mind was running the DT Swiss Dicut 62 wheels instead. It looked like you were still working a bit on the flats? the DT 62s are very strong on the climbs but are a lot better than lightweight wheels on the flats
dang, i thought you were always crushing it in the B cat though! that is true the bike choice is going to be highly customized to what works for each rider type.
Other consideration is downhills. Zwifterbikes considers descents as flat, which is a HUGE mistake. You can easily make up over a minute coming down Huez on an aero setup vs lightweight. One of my favourite tactics is an aero bike for the London Loop, then sprinting the other side of Boxhill with 10 seconds lead to make it to the finish.
thanks! yes, I do intend to do a video on acceleration in general (ive had a couple request for it). As far as im aware there isnt any data on it. I cant promise it will be my next video, but i do have it on my idea list, i just need to give some extra thought to how i will go about it!
Excellent analysis and theories. I would also like to add my own theory on the topic as well. The lighter riders have proportionally more benefit choosing light vs aero on the climbs, since bike weight is a bigger % of the total bike+rider weight. And heavier riders get less benefit from light vs aero. 👍
Great analysis, I can’t recall if you went through just how bad the climbing setup is on the flat? I remember seeing @dontgetdropped dropped before the climb on London Loop, for instance. I think intuition and experience says it’s not the Venge vs Climby choice for most of us, it’s Venge vs Tron or perhaps something even a tad lighter?
I remember a year back, when Eric (dgdc) were cycling on his Buffalo, chilling in A. Easy peacy to stay in the pack on the flats, at least looked like it 🤣
Have tested climbing bike(aethos/Millenstein) vs aero(venge/disc) with Coco. Aero setup was about 175-180w avg and Climbing was around 195-200w avg. As Coco is done at a fairly steady pace, Its hard to say how this would translate into race dynamics
Yes the venge will be about 2% faster over the flat portions compared to the Aethos + Alpinist. Dependent on how you fall within your category this could make a difference on the flat or it could be a minor increase in perceived effort though. The Tron looks to be about .35% slower on the flat, but about .65% (compared to about 1.3% savings for the climbing choice) faster than Venge on Leith Hill Climb (at ~3.0 wkg). The Tron is always going to be a great all arounder choice.
Keep in mind you need a pack of 5 or more and sandbag on flats and downhills. I get dropped on hills and then win from a punch over the top, that creates a gap. The Aero bikes destroy climbing rigs on the downhills. Basically, if it finishes on a long climb and has a large pack before the climb, use a climbing bike. Any change from that scenario means you're on a bike less suited for what comes before and after the climb.
the individual need to make the judgement on which bike to choose, dependent on their performance capabilities and course type. as mentioned at the end of the video, no good gaining a slight advantage a during a climb, if time is lost before even getting there.
I always wonder ...like in your Alpe du Zwift example: Why are there so many hidden differences in bikes with 4 stars in one category. Like ...all bikes with 4 stars in weight doesn't mean they all climb on the same level ....right? or not?
exactly! there are slight differences among two bikes with the same stars. The Scott Addict RC Vs Dogma F (both with ARC 1100 wheels) both have a 4 star on weight, but the Scott setup weighs 6.51kg while the Dogma is 6.65kg. In addition, the aero stars are the same but Scott has a CD of .649 vs Dogma F of .647 (for reference the Zwift carbon frame is .698). So very minute differences at the same stars. I think a 4 star scale is quite limiting considering there are so many bike options. Probably was done for simplicity on Zwift's end.
Did you know that you can change the power and draft benefit on that webpage. You see the power slider above the hours until the tron bike. Click the arrow on the right and it opens all sorts of extra values!
Huh, I didn't know that about the drafting option. I did know about the weight/power/height as I used that to calculate values across different power spectrums. Great to find out about the drafting option! Even with 100% draft it's still recommending a pretty aero setup though.
Ya. You are right. I notice most bikes don’t have a huge difference in times. Usually seconds over a climb. And most of the time is usually spent in flatter roads. I think you are correct that if the climb is the final part or the main issue a climbing bike makes sense. Otherwise I think it won’t make much difference.
I would like to think that the bike choice makes a huge difference but in reality I don’t think it does other than the really heavy bikes compared to the better ones. 90% of the time tron is sufficient or aero.
Yea I think overall the Tron bike is a very good selection for most routes. Idk what proportion of people have unlocked it though. I do think based on certain riders abilities (relative to were they are in their cat) bike selection can be a difference maker. Albeit maybe you're only finishing 1 place higher because of it, but if you find 2 or 3 marginal improvements it starts to add up.
Thanks for a good video, but to be honest, not much here for the 70-year-old. Just enjoyed a bit of social riding zwift, I'll just stick to my Tron bike for most of the times and very lightweight set up for going up hills
Haha no, i may have just overlooked that (being a descent vs climb sign). Since i cut down the two videos to fit side by side, I wanted to make sure it was easily clear which one is flat and which is climbing. Since im not an expert in video editing, it just so happened that was the easiest street sign i found to edit/remove background 😂
I didn't specifically mention the Tron bike in here, but it's a bike selection that you often can't go wrong with. Solid on the flats and also good time savings on climbs. I think of it as a split the difference bike. I wanted to examine just the recommended bike vs a climbing setup with keeping "extra" items off. So I excluded meilenstein wheels since it's based on luck, and the Tron since it requires a ton of climbing with the challenge selected, so I wasn't sure what proportion of Zwifters have access to it.
@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork I see your points. I just got the Tron, so I was curious. And after six climbs up the Alpe, still no Meilensteins! (Does a garage full of gloves make you go slower? 😅) Subscribed.
starting to hate zwift even more. it was okay but then they came out with the steering and well...more shit to keep track of and charged up and basically made racing unfair if it wasn't already unfair enough. I just don't understand why the pack dynamics are so fucked up. Like seriously I would be going twice as fast in a peloton of that size and I would also be able to break away. The sheer fact that you can't form a breakaway without a group is a real issue. It's not realistic.
Were you a fan of the pack dynamics before all the 4.0/4.1 updates? I feel it's easier now for a breakaway to survive, granted it needs a strong group of 3 or 4 riders to work
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork it's better but it's the whole experience for me really. Climb portal should have scenic views. It's so boring. The downhill drag is too high for heavier riders also. I think in general the drag coefficient needs works
Yea it would definitely be nice to have the climb portal at least have elements of scenery. Each of the iconic climbs they are beautiful IRL. I think they did it with only colors for ease of adding new climbs (not saying that's right though). I have also been burned a couple times on the downhill. The bologna downhill, I got dropped going all out at 72kg vs a 85kh rider
excellent video! well explained and makes absolutely sense. However for me its the case that I‘m never on the z2-z3 on the flats, more like z4-z5 already and also I‘m a lighter rider compared to the most of the field therefore i often chose something more aero.
I think it’s also important to watch for
the speed you gain on the climbs as aero resistance is increasing exponentially. that’s why faster rider benefits less from climbing bikes on the alpe because they start getting aero resistance already
Fascinating. I will defo take the advice on my next race.
great stuff with interesting data and good takeaways !!! ... now it's confirmed what I thought before ... lower speed in Cat D brings more advantage for a climbing setup when you ride uphill than in the highspeed Cat A where aero setups make more sense ... AND bike choice is still a very personal and psychologic thing ... if you struggle on the flats then take more aero ... if you need more help uphill then take a lighter setup
your last two sentences perfectly sum it up! what works for one rider may be a horrible idea for another.
As a bigger rider, I always lean toward any help I can get climbing... no trouble keeping up on the flats!
Great video...Thank you!
Going to try your climbing bike setup tomorrow for stage 4 race. Horrible race on Tuesday....internet dropped 3 times. 🤦
1. I love your voice, and when you say however: "hi'ver!"
2. The ultimate answer to proper bike choice is (as you already mention) "it depends."
I agree that you should select a bike that best suits the "decisive" parts of the course. Usually that does apply to the climbs. Hi'ver, if the field is small there is significantly less draft available, so even if you're gonna save 10% on the upcoming climb, you might be doing 10% more work on the rest of the course because you don't have an aero bike, and you get dropped anyways.
thanks mate! yup its funny that often the answer in cycling is "it depends".
Thats interesting thinking about it with smaller field sizes. I was coming at it with the assumption of a 50+ group, meaning you will almost always have a drafting benefit. But yes, I would agree if you're racing in a field of 5, making an aero bike selection makes a lot of sense. A lot more potential for 2 attacking and you having to put in work to bring it back.
Thanks for following through with my request! Cheers
Of course! It was a good video idea
I always go Aero unless it's a hilltop finish on select climbs, Bologna, alpe - I don't include ventop, as i simply don't rave up it now 😂
One thing you don't mention. Descents matter. Having an Aero bike will allow you to sit in and recover on descents, a climbing bike may get you dropped. And also you may only be doing z2/3 on the flats, but thats the time you spend recovering between climbs. If you can recover more between climbs, you can climb faster.
I posted a similar point on Reddit! You’re more likely to get dropped on the climb than on the flats. Err on the side of a better climbing bike even when Zwift bikes recommends an aero.
is there a thread on Reddit for this? it would be interesting to see all the comments on the topic.
I'm with you (primarily because of how I stack up in my category, I am usually the very last rider dropped from the group on the 5-minute climbs, saving a couple seconds makes a huge impact for me!) on going for the climbing bike. It's always a fearful decision though as I'm always concerned about how bad the decision will be if others decide to blast the pace on the flat. Luckily this hasn't happened to me often 😂
For sure going to keep this info in mind next race.
I have never thought about it. It makes so much sense to get the lightest bike to go faster during climbs, that's the main drop zone. Unfortunately, I am still at the back of the pack in CAT B only trying to stay with the pack. Thanks, David. You are my main coach and an invaluable source of information.
of course! keep at it, if you keep racing with the Bs im sure you will improve to the point of being there consistently at the end.
Some good thoughts. I generally agree with you: I choose a bike based on how much it will help me in the toughest part of the race.
It gets really complex in races like ZRL, where you may want to get sprint points, but also hang on up the climbs.
PS: zwifterbikes is a great idea, but the results definitely need to be taken with a grain of salt, as you noted. They aren't even entirely accurate for some routes... not sure how the numbers are being crunched, even though the starting data is based on our speed tests.
Agreed! So many situations where 1 bike may work great for 1 rider but be a horrible selection for another rider (possibly going for ZRL FTS sprint points)
I understand how they are trying to break down routes (they have a disclosure about utilizing the hypotenuse and normalizing routes for the Adz & tempus fugit speed tests). However, two things threw me for a loop.
1.) some routes do seem to be off slightly, for example the NY KOM Reverse has the same length as ZI, but it lists only 63m of elevation gain compared to 89m on ZI.
2.) under the compare bikes section the savings in "Savings as per reference bike" don't seem to add to the total time savings. They are always close but never tie exactly
I almost always use an aero bike and Millenstein wheels because I'm heavy. I totally buy your theory. Its what I intuit for quite awhile now
I always think about bike choice in terms of where on the route I need the most help. This tends to result in frequently using the Addict RC in races.
Bother hit me with the Destiny Child right off the bat 🔥 #1 Zwift YT Channel!!!!!! Nothing but FACTS
thanks for the shoutout! your channels probably right up there as well 😂
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork Dudeeeee I just ran the Atheos + Lightweight combo on Knickerbocker and my lame ass didn't quite get dropped up NYC KOM!! BUT I almost fell off the back on the rollers to the finish line LMAOOOOOOOOO but I think the lightweight set up helped snipe one extra spot on the kicker to the line!
BIG BIG BIG shout outs coming when I drop this Race Like a Champ video!!! Keep up the great work man 👊🏽
Thanks! Looking forward to checking out the video. The Knickerbocker and the NYC climb is always an interesting route to race. Such a short climb but kicks so hard. That last 300 meters is always painful 😂
I checked out your race vid! One thing that came to mind was running the DT Swiss Dicut 62 wheels instead. It looked like you were still working a bit on the flats? the DT 62s are very strong on the climbs but are a lot better than lightweight wheels on the flats
I believe it also matters what power you have available. As a lower power rider i’m always struggling in the flats, and therefore always choose aero.
dang, i thought you were always crushing it in the B cat though! that is true the bike choice is going to be highly customized to what works for each rider type.
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork I would class myself as mid-B overall, but it does really depend on the course and type of race.
Other consideration is downhills. Zwifterbikes considers descents as flat, which is a HUGE mistake. You can easily make up over a minute coming down Huez on an aero setup vs lightweight.
One of my favourite tactics is an aero bike for the London Loop, then sprinting the other side of Boxhill with 10 seconds lead to make it to the finish.
Great vid. I don't suppose you could do a video on which bike has the fastest acceleration for a sprint? There is no data to my knowledge
thanks! yes, I do intend to do a video on acceleration in general (ive had a couple request for it). As far as im aware there isnt any data on it. I cant promise it will be my next video, but i do have it on my idea list, i just need to give some extra thought to how i will go about it!
Excellent analysis and theories. I would also like to add my own theory on the topic as well. The lighter riders have proportionally more benefit choosing light vs aero on the climbs, since bike weight is a bigger % of the total bike+rider weight. And heavier riders get less benefit from light vs aero. 👍
Hmm that is an interesting theory! It kinda makes sense at its surface.
I found this very informative..many thanks.
Great analysis, I can’t recall if you went through just how bad the climbing setup is on the flat? I remember seeing @dontgetdropped dropped before the climb on London Loop, for instance. I think intuition and experience says it’s not the Venge vs Climby choice for most of us, it’s Venge vs Tron or perhaps something even a tad lighter?
I remember a year back, when Eric (dgdc) were cycling on his Buffalo, chilling in A. Easy peacy to stay in the pack on the flats, at least looked like it 🤣
Have tested climbing bike(aethos/Millenstein) vs aero(venge/disc) with Coco. Aero setup was about 175-180w avg and Climbing was around 195-200w avg. As Coco is done at a fairly steady pace, Its hard to say how this would translate into race dynamics
Yes the venge will be about 2% faster over the flat portions compared to the Aethos + Alpinist. Dependent on how you fall within your category this could make a difference on the flat or it could be a minor increase in perceived effort though.
The Tron looks to be about .35% slower on the flat, but about .65% (compared to about 1.3% savings for the climbing choice) faster than Venge on Leith Hill Climb (at ~3.0 wkg). The Tron is always going to be a great all arounder choice.
Keep in mind you need a pack of 5 or more and sandbag on flats and downhills. I get dropped on hills and then win from a punch over the top, that creates a gap. The Aero bikes destroy climbing rigs on the downhills.
Basically, if it finishes on a long climb and has a large pack before the climb, use a climbing bike. Any change from that scenario means you're on a bike less suited for what comes before and after the climb.
the individual need to make the judgement on which bike to choose, dependent on their performance capabilities and course type. as mentioned at the end of the video, no good gaining a slight advantage a during a climb, if time is lost before even getting there.
I always wonder ...like in your Alpe du Zwift example:
Why are there so many hidden differences in bikes with 4 stars in one category.
Like ...all bikes with 4 stars in weight doesn't mean they all climb on the same level ....right? or not?
exactly! there are slight differences among two bikes with the same stars. The Scott Addict RC Vs Dogma F (both with ARC 1100 wheels) both have a 4 star on weight, but the Scott setup weighs 6.51kg while the Dogma is 6.65kg. In addition, the aero stars are the same but Scott has a CD of .649 vs Dogma F of .647 (for reference the Zwift carbon frame is .698).
So very minute differences at the same stars. I think a 4 star scale is quite limiting considering there are so many bike options. Probably was done for simplicity on Zwift's end.
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetworkthanks a lot :)
Not for me, i drop people on climbs but i struggle to produce raw watts so i need help on the flats.
Did you know that you can change the power and draft benefit on that webpage. You see the power slider above the hours until the tron bike. Click the arrow on the right and it opens all sorts of extra values!
You can make it show the time savings if no draft and 100% draft. Also you can set the power to your own and see the actual times each bike saves you.
Huh, I didn't know that about the drafting option. I did know about the weight/power/height as I used that to calculate values across different power spectrums. Great to find out about the drafting option!
Even with 100% draft it's still recommending a pretty aero setup though.
Ya. You are right. I notice most bikes don’t have a huge difference in times. Usually seconds over a climb. And most of the time is usually spent in flatter roads. I think you are correct that if the climb is the final part or the main issue a climbing bike makes sense. Otherwise I think it won’t make much difference.
I would like to think that the bike choice makes a huge difference but in reality I don’t think it does other than the really heavy bikes compared to the better ones. 90% of the time tron is sufficient or aero.
Yea I think overall the Tron bike is a very good selection for most routes. Idk what proportion of people have unlocked it though.
I do think based on certain riders abilities (relative to were they are in their cat) bike selection can be a difference maker. Albeit maybe you're only finishing 1 place higher because of it, but if you find 2 or 3 marginal improvements it starts to add up.
Thanks for a good video, but to be honest, not much here for the 70-year-old. Just enjoyed a bit of social riding zwift, I'll just stick to my Tron bike for most of the times and very lightweight set up for going up hills
No worries, to each their own! if social riding is what you're here for thats still great. I hope im still riding in some capacity at 70!
Can't remember but have you already covered if one gets more watts saving, (s4z) drafting a heavy vs light rider?
I have not covered this or looked into this yet. I would imagine there would be a better draft for heavier or taller riders though.
@ZwiftInsider Thoughts?
Your street sign for climb is descent in my country 😂 Aussie?
Haha no, i may have just overlooked that (being a descent vs climb sign). Since i cut down the two videos to fit side by side, I wanted to make sure it was easily clear which one is flat and which is climbing. Since im not an expert in video editing, it just so happened that was the easiest street sign i found to edit/remove background 😂
Did I overlook a mention of the Tron bike?
I didn't specifically mention the Tron bike in here, but it's a bike selection that you often can't go wrong with. Solid on the flats and also good time savings on climbs. I think of it as a split the difference bike.
I wanted to examine just the recommended bike vs a climbing setup with keeping "extra" items off. So I excluded meilenstein wheels since it's based on luck, and the Tron since it requires a ton of climbing with the challenge selected, so I wasn't sure what proportion of Zwifters have access to it.
@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork I see your points. I just got the Tron, so I was curious. And after six climbs up the Alpe, still no Meilensteins! (Does a garage full of gloves make you go slower? 😅) Subscribed.
😂😂to bad the gloves weren't like power ups! suffer through a few AdZ's and maybe be able to drop the gloves at anytime like a feather weight!
starting to hate zwift even more. it was okay but then they came out with the steering and well...more shit to keep track of and charged up and basically made racing unfair if it wasn't already unfair enough. I just don't understand why the pack dynamics are so fucked up. Like seriously I would be going twice as fast in a peloton of that size and I would also be able to break away. The sheer fact that you can't form a breakaway without a group is a real issue. It's not realistic.
Were you a fan of the pack dynamics before all the 4.0/4.1 updates? I feel it's easier now for a breakaway to survive, granted it needs a strong group of 3 or 4 riders to work
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork it's better but it's the whole experience for me really. Climb portal should have scenic views. It's so boring. The downhill drag is too high for heavier riders also. I think in general the drag coefficient needs works
Yea it would definitely be nice to have the climb portal at least have elements of scenery. Each of the iconic climbs they are beautiful IRL. I think they did it with only colors for ease of adding new climbs (not saying that's right though).
I have also been burned a couple times on the downhill. The bologna downhill, I got dropped going all out at 72kg vs a 85kh rider
Or just use a TRON bike and stop fussing around
How does the train bike compare?
The Tron is going to essentially split the difference. Its ~.35% slower on the flat than the venge+dicut 1100, but about .65% faster up leith hill.